S01.E07: In the Pines, In the Pines

[formerlyfreedom]

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Holly makes a calculated attempt to help a volatile but conflicted Jack, while their whereabouts are tracked by Ralph and Alec. After she's confronted by town gossip on her first day back at work, Glory considers Howie's suggestion on how to secure her family's financial future.

Airing Sunday, February 16, 2020.

[sugarbaker design]

This is the first episode not written by Richard Price, it was written by Dennis Lehane.

[Cheezwiz]

Good episode. Both Price and Lehane have made improvements to the story - very curious to see how they will wrap things up. One more episode left?

I really like how clever and resourceful Holly is. That was a hair-raising escape!

I didn't quite catch what the young couple said to Glory during the house showing that set her off. I hope she gets some dough from the city for what she and her kids have been through.

I also enjoyed seeing both Jeannie and Sablo read the riot act to Ralph. Dude, get on board, 'cause there ain't no normal or rational anymore.

 

[patty1h]

How did Andy find Holly?  Is he gonna be a problem now, is he working for El Cuco?

[FoundTime]

Dennis Lehane! Not too shabby 😊

I really like the little ambiguities in this show: I don't know how I feel about Glory from one minute to the next, for example. I get that her emotions would be all over the place under the circumstances, but then she has what seem to me to be fairly immature outbursts and I find myself annoyed with her. And now I'm annoyed with Ralph too and glad Jeannie made that little speech to him (the kinds of things only a wife could say!). Yet I think this is actually good writing on the show's part, much more realistic of how we can find people IRL.

Also liked the exchange between...the law enforcement officer (can't keep straight who's who there, sorry) and Ralph where the officer said that he just wanted it to end, and that Ralph wanted something he could live with. Struck me that neither of those is inherently right or wrong, yet were good insights into each character.

[Rickster]

5 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

Good episode. Both Price and Lehane have made improvements to the story - very curious to see how they will wrap things up. One more episode left?

 

 

Series is listed as ten episodes, so three more.

[blixie]

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One more episode left?

There are ten episodes so three left. 

I love Andy/Holly. I love the way he gets her, that she has re-ignited something for him in terms of the work. I hope there's no shoe that drops there.

Holly's empathy for the Renfields is so moving, even as the experience haunts her nightmares. I'm glad we got to see some vulnerable layers to Jack.

I think the only thing I didn't get was that we were meant to think the drawings looked like Claude? REALLY? That was for sure a beat they didn't hit very hard, I mean we knew he was transforming into him, but his face was way too jacked up to make anything out. Huh.

[Johnny Dollar]

Sorry, but nothing happened this episode. If someone missed it and asked me what happened, I would just say that Holly tricked Jack and was able to escape. That’s it. It could have been added to the first five minutes of the next episode.

They have really stretched this thing out to way too many episodes, probably because HBO needs content between the really hot shows like Westworld to keep subscribers interested. 

[cpcathy]

Nothing ever happens, but that was the most that’s happened in a long time!

i also like Holly/Andy, is hate to see something happen to him, which seems like a possibility.

Glory is annoying, no two bones about it. Sue and move to California, lady.

[Darian]

3 hours ago, blixie said:

I love Andy/Holly. I love the way he gets her, that she has re-ignited something for him in terms of the work. I hope there's no shoe that drops there.

Me, too. I don't usually ship couples too hard, but when she asked "What are you doing here?"  and his face fell, I felt a twinge. I was so glad she immediately smiled and they had that nice moment. I needed that.  

[iMonrey]

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Series is listed as ten episodes, so three more.

Ugh. This was the first episode where I started to feel like maybe there isn't enough story here to fill eight episodes, let alone ten. I agree with Johnny Dollar, you could just skip right over this episode and never know it. Everything was reset to where it was prior to this episode. Holly escaped and is back and Ralph is still conflicted over the whole Cuco thing. 

And how on earth did Ralph and Alec think they could "catch up" to Holly and Jack? The latter must have had half a day's worth of a head start on them. Ralph and Jack spent that entire morning meandering around town trying to track them down before they even took off. That just baffled me when they said they could catch up to them.

I've enjoyed this show thus far and hadn't been bothered by the pacing up until now.

[pfk505]

48 minutes ago, Darian said:

Me, too. I don't usually ship couples too hard, but when she asked "What are you doing here?"  and his face fell, I felt a twinge. I was so glad she immediately smiled and they had that nice moment. I needed that.  

I hope the show doesn't take the predictable route of him being creepy/evil/El Cuco's minion and just keeps them as two awkward dorks in love.

But yeah this episode was 100% filler.

Edited February 17, 2020 by pfk505

[meep.meep]

2 hours ago, Johnny Dollar said:

Sorry, but nothing happened this episode. If someone missed it and asked me what happened, I would just say that Holly tricked Jack and was able to escape. That’s it. It could have been added to the first five minutes of the next episode.

They have really stretched this thing out to way too many episodes, probably because HBO needs content between the really hot shows like Westworld to keep subscribers interested. 

They had maybe six episodes worth of story, at least the way they are telling it.  All these long long endless shots of someone sitting are ridiculous.  The scene with Ralph talking to the therapist?  Shot so that you can't see the face of the therapist, but for some reason they've put graying lenses over the camera so you can barely make out Ralph either.  A little of that goes a long way.

I'm tempted to just stop off at the library, find the book, and read the last 30 pages.

[WaltersHair]

I enjoyed the episode, but it was filler.

Glory is plain annoying. She's right, but I don't like her which is the Breaking Bad/Skyler method. Same with Abbie Donovan. I can't tell if it's the actress or the character.

The strange thing is that Ralph really is right. He is a man driven by evidence and I don't think he can just throw that out of the window. He ignores evidence at his own peril.

Stephen King sells fantasy/horror, but no one is going to sue him for asking you to believe in the boogeyman, but poor Ralph stuck in that world will be.

[humbleopinion]

11 hours ago, patty1h said:

How did Andy find Holly?  Is he gonna be a problem now, is he working for El Cuco?

Holly has been chatting all along with Andy, her bf  and sack buddy, about the case and she probably said I'm staying at Ralph's so he came to throw his hat into the ring and wants to be on the investigation.

Holly needs someone like good hearted, ex detective Andy in her corner.

 

[WaltersHair]

I'm wondering if the series is trying to show that there are good influences from strangers (Holly and Andy) vs the boogeyman's reaching out and touching someone. (have they named him yet?)

[patty1h]

If I've been paying attention correctly, Claude will be going after Tamika's baby, then it will feed on her pain?

I guess Tamika is being all shady because Hoodie Guy is in her dreams? I wonder what he says to her?  Am I on the right page?

[Ellaria]

1 hour ago, WaltersHair said:

Glory is plain annoying. She's right, but I don't like her which is the Breaking Bad/Skyler method....

...The strange thing is that Ralph really is right. He is a man driven by evidence and I don't think he can just throw that out of the window. He ignores evidence at his own peril.

While Glory's grief and anger is understandable, she IS annoying.

So the couple that she was showing the house to claims that she caused them emotional distress? Huh? 

Great observation about Ralph above. He is trying make sense of things that aren't explainable - these murders, his son's death - and, as he says, his mind doesn't let him accept the unexplainable. 

What was Holly frantically looking for once she escaped from Jack?

This is a great cast but I am particularly happy to see Mare Winningham again. It's been awhile.

 

Edited February 17, 2020 by Ellaria Sand

[patty1h]

20 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

What was Holly frantically looking for once she escaped from Jack?

I thought she was looking for her cellphone, not knowing that Jack took it with him.  

[sugarbaker design]

21 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

What was Holly frantically looking for once she escaped from Jack?

 

I thought Holly was hoping Minion left her phone in the car while he was checking on her on the gas station rest room.

[Ellaria]

5 minutes ago, patty1h said:

I thought she was looking for her cellphone, not knowing that Jack took it with him.  

3 minutes ago, sugarbaker design said:

I thought Holly was hoping Minion left her phone in the car while he was checking on her on the gas station rest room.

Thanks. I assumed - apparently incorrectly - that she knew that he wouldn't leave it in the car.

[Johnny Dollar]

I don’t think pressing charges for causing emotional distress is a thing. Otherwise Mrs Dollar may be looking at a life sentence based on her treatment of the staff at the Macy’s return counter.

Any show or movie based on a supernatural element will naturally have its skeptical characters.  But the length of time it’s taken for Ralph to come around makes me think that Ben Mendelsohn was told he was being cast in a different show.  And I don’t know why the Big Bad even bothered scaring Jeannie and the youngest Maitland girl to get Ralph off the case.  He could come face to face with his own doppelgänger and greet him as the twin he never knew he had.

Some of the scenes seemed like pointless filler, like Glory calling a very busy Howard.  “Hi Howard. I’m going back to work.”  “Sounds like a good idea.  Wanna sue anybody.”    “Nah.  I’m good.”  “OK. Is there anything else I can do?”  “No, I’ll talk to you later.”

 

 

[Rickster]

So how did Holly know that Jack would have started towards the bathroom, so that he would be in the perfect place for her strategy of breaking the back window and running out the front to work? 

[Ellaria]

9 hours ago, Rickster said:

So how did Holly know that Jack would have started towards the bathroom, so that he would be in the perfect place for her strategy of breaking the back window and running out the front to work? 

I wondered about this, too. It would have to be timed perfectly.

However, I can suspend disbelief on this escape since we are watching a story about dopplegangers and El Cuco. I want to get to the end and see how it wraps up because, right now, I have no idea of where it is going.

[blixie]

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So how did Holly know that Jack would have started towards the bathroom, so that he would be in the perfect place for her strategy of breaking the back window and running out the front to work? 

Given that when I'm terrified I feel like my senses are on 11 and Half I can believe that she was super tuned into listening top the door for him, and she figured that if she took a long time he'd investigate.

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He is a man driven by evidence and I don't think he can just throw that out of the window. He ignores evidence at his own peril.

But Holly and Jeannie's whole point is that he IS ignoring the evidence, he's choosing to ignore evidence (the multiple Claude drawings from three people) that doesn't adhere to his general understanding of how the world works. Holly and the GBI guy are there to follow the evidence where it goes w/o judgement to get to the answers and stop the murders. Ralph isn't, and that is just plain wrong, though I think understandable given his unresolved grief and guilt re: his son and Terry. 

[Milburn Stone]

3 minutes ago, blixie said:

But Holly and Jeannie's whole point is that he IS ignoring the evidence, he's choosing to ignore evidence (the multiple Claude drawings from three people) that doesn't adhere to his general understanding of how the world works. Holly and the GBI guy are there to follow the evidence where it goes w/o judgement to get to the answers and stop the murders. Ralph isn't, and that is just plain wrong, though I think understandable given his unresolved grief and guilt re: his son and Terry. 

Agree. And I feel like the therapist was giving Ralph permission to put aside his rationality. The therapist was careful to say, "as a doctor, I have to believe in science." As if to say, "Ralph, you're not a doctor, so you're not bound by the same strictures that I am." He also left Ralph with final words to the effect that "what we know or understand is probably a millionth of what we'll never know or understand." I feel like that appointment was helping Ralph go in the right direction from here. So it did its job.

[BC4ME]

12 hours ago, Rickster said:

So how did Holly know that Jack would have started towards the bathroom, so that he would be in the perfect place for her strategy of breaking the back window and running out the front to work? 

I don't feel like I always have a good grasp in this show, but I *think* she planned and waited and then heard his footsteps coming to the bathroom door so she executed her plan.

[blixie]

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He is a man driven by evidence and I don't think he can just throw that out of the window. He ignores evidence at his own peril.

Which is why I'm an agnostic rather than an atheist. Like man I just don't KNOW you know?

I think Ralph's problem is instead of saying this IS happening even if I don't understand how, he's saying this can't be happening because I don't understand it. 

[iMonrey]

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I don’t think pressing charges for causing emotional distress is a thing.

Pressing charges, no. Suing, yes. Although it's not something that would be a singular reason for a lawsuit. It's something that would be added to a lawsuit. She could sue for wrongful death, loss of income and add emotional distress for the jury to consider when deliberating and coming up with a money total should she win.

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 And I feel like the therapist was giving Ralph permission to put aside his rationality. The therapist was careful to say, "as a doctor, I have to believe in science." As if to say, "Ralph, you're not a doctor, so you're not bound by the same strictures that I am."

Except the therapist doesn't know what's going on and if Ralph told him he'd probably think Ralph was having an emotional/mental breakdown. The whole reason Ralph is in therapy is to get cleared to go back to work. I very much doubt the therapist would sign off on that if Ralph told him he's chasing El Cuco. And I'm sure Ralph knows it.

[Milburn Stone]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

Except the therapist doesn't know what's going on and if Ralph told him he'd probably think Ralph was having an emotional/mental breakdown. The whole reason Ralph is in therapy is to get cleared to go back to work. I very much doubt the therapist would sign off on that if Ralph told him he's chasing El Cuco. And I'm sure Ralph knows it.

You're right--but I still think that therapy session was therapeutic in exactly the way Ralph needed. Ralph had to talk in generalities for the reason you say, and that frustrated the therapist, but nevertheless the therapist was able to work with the generalities Ralph gave him and grant Ralph permission, essentially, not to be constricted by conventional rationality.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Milburn Stone

[Auntie Anxiety]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Pressing charges, no. Suing, yes. Although it's not something that would be a singular reason for a lawsuit

The house hunting couple was going after Glory for emotional distress. It’s bogus, but the wife was pregnant and they probably figured, why not?  We live in a litigious society. Of course the house hunters wouldn’t take any of the blame for treating Glory like she was part of a sideshow. Who knows if they were even actually interested in buying a house? 

[enchantingmonkey]

If the boogeyman growls in the forest and there's no one there to scream, did he even make a sound?  This episode made me start to wonder if the boogeyman needs us more than we need him.  Who would he be without our fear to wallow in, or our young bodies to eat?  Could he exist without us?   Inquiring minds want to know!  

I love the mood of the show, so I can enjoy an episode that may be perceived as filler, but I do think Glory's scenes would be better served if they were tying her pain and torment more closely to El Cuco.  As if she'd fallen into his trap and could do little to escape, like the bug that was stuck on its back throughout the episode.   

 

On 2/17/2020 at 5:30 PM, patty1h said:

I guess Tamika is being all shady because Hoodie Guy is in her dreams? I wonder what he says to her?  Am I on the right page?

It's possible that he has threatened her child, much like he threatened Jeannie.  

[pasdetrois]

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The house hunting couple was going after Glory for emotional distress.

I figured they were simply curious and nosy about the Maitland widow. Like people who stare at car wrecks.

[raven]

On 2/18/2020 at 9:32 AM, Milburn Stone said:

I feel like that appointment was helping Ralph go in the right direction from here. So it did its job.

I agree and thought this was a good episode for Ralph's development.  He needs to gradually move from not believing to believing.   I also think he doesn't want to admit that he was visited by El Cuco and didn't have a dream with his son in it.

On 2/17/2020 at 5:42 AM, FoundTime said:

I really like the little ambiguities in this show: I don't know how I feel about Glory from one minute to the next, for example.

I'm usually sympathetic to her and I understand her needing to go back to work but something about her bugs sometimes.  Maybe she is just an unlikable person who had something really horrible happen to her and her family.   She hasn't been shown to have friends supporting her, though I guess she must or I'm forgetting them, and I understand that moving is a huge deal but she really should consider selling the house and moving.  I agree that filing a lawsuit is also a good idea; she will probably get some kind of settlement.

That said, it does seem like the townspeople's reaction towards her is kind of OTT  Some guy in a restaurant threatens her children??  Really???  Plus the rubberneckers at the house.   Her kids being teased in school I agree with but these adult reactions seem a bit much; I would expect stares and whispers but not stuff this overt.   Then again, I thought that the perp walk that got her husband killed was unrealistic so I'll just go with it. 

I thought Holly's escape was well done and tense.  I could picture her hovering near the door and waiting for him to get out.  Or she could have just made a desperate move and gotten lucky; it happens.

[ferjy]

19 hours ago, pasdetrois said:

I figured they were simply curious and nosy about the Maitland widow. Like people who stare at car wrecks.

It seems they were. And Glory called them on it. Then later Glory’s boss said the couple may file charges against Glory for emotional distress. 🙄 Out to make a quick buck, no doubt. 

 

[ferjy]

On 2/17/2020 at 5:42 AM, FoundTime said:

I really like the little ambiguities in this show: I don't know how I feel about Glory from one minute to the next, for example. I get that her emotions would be all over the place under the circumstances, but then she has what seem to me to be fairly immature outbursts and I find myself annoyed with her. And now I'm annoyed with Ralph too and glad Jeannie made that little speech to him (the kinds of things only a wife could say!). Yet I think this is actually good writing on the show's part, much more realistic of how we can find people IRL.

I like that about this show. Viewers are so often looking for likeable people but most of us aren’t that wonderful in real life. lol I like that they show the detriments of the characters. 

On 2/17/2020 at 3:45 PM, WaltersHair said:

Glory is plain annoying. She's right, but I don't like her which is the Breaking Bad/Skyler method. Same with Abbie Donovan. I can't tell if it's the actress or the character.

Not the actress. I’ve seen her in a variety of roles and she has always been very good (and not annoying). It’s the way they’re portraying Glory in this. Though considering what she has been through, I think I’d be pretty disillusioned and cranky too. 

 

[Milburn Stone]

FWIW, I find Glory's extreme mood swings, and not always handling things in the best way, quite understandable under the circumstances.

[iMonrey]

The thing that bugs me about Glory is that, as far as I can tell, nobody has sat her down and shown her the evidence they had against her husband. The eyewitnesses. The DNA. The video surveillance footage. The bloody clothes. The fingerprints.  Yeah, I get that there was conflicting evidence in the video of Terry at a seminar somewhere else but you can easily see how convincing the evidence against him was. She's stuck in a head space where the authorities just screwed up and ruined her life without allowing for how that would have happened to anyone under the circumstances. And this isn't necessarily her fault either. I just find it frustrating, like I want someone to just sit her down and spell this all out for her and nobody seems to be doing that.

[tennisgurl]

First of all, In The Pines is a really good song, and the vibe is really perfect for this show, especially with its connections to the woods and the darkness within and the crimes taking place in the forest. "In the pines, in the pines, where the sun dont never shine..."

Ralph really has no idea what kind of story this is, and its causing him to really be a pain in the ass with this case, is a pain in the ass for him, and even put Holly in danger. He went into this thinking he was in a typical cop drama, albeit a very dark and gritty one, where he saw himself originally as the troubled but ultimately heroic cop who ignored the rules because it was PERSONAL due his own demons, only to find himself as the cop who has to make up for his mistake and will do that by cracking the Big Case. Which isnt great, but its still a story he is used to. Too bad for him, he is actually in a Steven King story, where not only does he have to deal with personal demons, but an actual demon (or something) and a bunch of facts and findings that dont fit into a gritty realistic cop world, so he has no idea what he is doing and is flailing about confused and increasingly pissed at his world no longer following the rules that he thought always applied. Glad that Holly and Jeannie fully told Ralph off for being so unwilling to entertain something supernatural, that he is ignoring obvious evidence and obstructing his own investigation. At some point, your just ignoring evidence because its evidence that you dont like, and that makes for a bad detective. At what point is the evidence just straight up telling you something, but your ignoring it? 

Glory is often exhausting and sometimes frustrating, but I find her to still be interesting and sympathetic. She is going through something utterly terrible, so I cant blame her for being all over the place. 

I love Holly and Andy! His super happy reaction to seeing her was so sweet, and she seems so awkwardly charmed by him, even if she is bad at showing it sometimes, or does it in odd ways. That was one intense freaking car ride!

[Bethanne]

On 2/17/2020 at 12:48 PM, meep.meep said:

They had maybe six episodes worth of story, at least the way they are telling it.  All these long long endless shots of someone sitting are ridiculous.  The scene with Ralph talking to the therapist?  Shot so that you can't see the face of the therapist, but for some reason they've put graying lenses over the camera so you can barely make out Ralph either.  A little of that goes a long way.

I'm tempted to just stop off at the library, find the book, and read the last 30 pages.

Gah, me too. It’s a difficult show to watch back to back—the dramatic long shots with alternating focus in-focus out movements are way too over the top. 

On 2/19/2020 at 7:28 PM, raven said:

 

[Kel Varnsen]

On 2/16/2020 at 10:47 PM, sugarbaker design said:

This is the first episode not written by Richard Price, it was written by Dennis Lehane.

Price and Lehane were both writers on The Wire. So it's cool that they are working together again.

On 2/20/2020 at 7:37 PM, iMonrey said:

She's stuck in a head space where the authorities just screwed up and ruined her life without allowing for how that would have happened to anyone under the circumstances. And this isn't necessarily her fault either. I just find it frustrating, like I want someone to just sit her down and spell this all out for her and nobody seems to be doing that.

At first I though that Howard was being kind of weird for going hard with the lawsuit when he knows the kind of evidence the cops had (and what else is going on). It would be hard to prove it was a bad arrest it seems. But then he brought up Terry's death and he was right. The people in charge of protecting him on the way to courthouse did a shitty job and that led to him being killed.

On 2/21/2020 at 12:49 AM, tennisgurl said:

First of all, In The Pines is a really good song, and the vibe is really perfect for this show, especially with its connections to the woods and the darkness within and the crimes taking place in the forest. "In the pines, in the pines, where the sun dont never shine..."

When I saw the episode title I honestly wondered if HBO was going to spend what would have to be a crazy amount of money for music rights, in order to get the Nirvana version of that song.