S01.E02: Maps and Legends

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

Picard begins investigating the mystery of Dahj as well as what her very existence means to the Federation. Without Starfleet's support, Picard is left leaning on others for help, including Dr. Agnes Jurati and an estranged former colleague, Raffi Musiker. Hidden enemies are interested in where Picard's search for the truth about Dahj will lead.

Original air date: 1/30/20

Edited January 28, 2020 by ElectricBoogaloo

[marinw]

The finale of The Good Place and STP are on at the same time! I have to decide what to watch live and what to DVR.

[Anduin]

I'm no prude, but swearing just sounds really out of place in Trek. Was the commodore actually a Romulan? Trivia, Tamlyn Tomita was in the Babylon 5 pilot! She also played two roles in Stargate SG1 and Atlantis. Also, commodores are supposed to be admirals who hang out aboard ship instead of back at HQ. Not Trek's first variance from existing military procedure.

Once again, an admiral is an idiot. Can anyone name a single good admiral, except Kirk and Picard? Picard's carers were Tal Shiar? Was the black woman on the cube a Trill?

In uniform news, rank insignia has moved from collar to chest. Oh starfleet. Never stop messing with the clothes.

Hah hah, Picard doesn't like SF. Because Patrick Stewart is best known for SF and is on an SF show. I hate meta humour like that. Furthermore, Narek being on top of the situation. Of course Rizzo had to comment on it. Could have left it as an unspoken gag, but no. Wait until next week, he'll say he's pumping her for information. Groan.

[paigow]

6 hours ago, Anduin said:

Hah hah, Picard doesn't like SF. Because Patrick Stewart is best known for SF and is on an SF show. I hate meta humour like that. Furthermore, Narek being on top of the situation. Of course Rizzo had to comment on it. Could have left it as an unspoken gag, but no. Wait until next week, he'll say he's pumping her for information. Groan.

Evidence Akiva Goldsman is a useless hack...One of the few people that could have made Game Of Thrones finale worse than it ended up...

Does Raffi live on the Metron homeworld?? - because that looked like where Kirk!TOS dropped a boulder on the Gorn

[paigow]

The Borg cube is a theme park...Jurassic Cube when Soji removes the safety protocols and releases Borg Raptors.....

14 species tell the Federation to let the Romulans die...Why are so many Romulans still alive? Who saved them? Besides seeking revenge against synthetics, these survivors should be eradicating everyone that death-voted them...

[Netfoot]

So... Picard demands a starship, and in return will condescend to a drop in rank to... Captain?

Entitled much?

[Anduin]

4 hours ago, paigow said:

14 species tell the Federation to let the Romulans die...Why are so many Romulans still alive? Who saved them? Besides seeking revenge against synthetics, these survivors should be eradicating everyone that death-voted them...

The Romulans control some territory with other planets, not just the home system. Considering how they've infiltrated Starfleet, it's possible they're tracking down and eliminating their enemies.

[marinw]

Yet another robot uprising! Have we learned nothing from Battlestar Galactica?

[Machiabelly]

Who was the character at the end.

[Anduin]

30 minutes ago, Machiabelly said:

Who was the character at the end.

She's new to Trek. Another retired admiral, I think. In the prequel comic, she helped Picard evacuate the Romulans. But the comic wasn't very good, and I didn't finish it. I don't know why they're now on the outs.

[thuganomics85]

I love you, Picard, but if you pretty much shit-talked Starfleet and basically call them genocidal assholes on camera, maybe the "I'm just going to stroll in, declare I'm going on a secret mission to my former android buddy's daughter, and ask for a crew and ship, but hey!  I'll totally step down to being a mere Captain now!" approach isn't going to quite fly here.

Of course, he's totally going to end up being right since the Romulans seem to have agents in Starfleet after-all, with this Commodore Oh character (hey, so this is what Tamlyn Tonita is doing, now that The Good Doctor apparently no longer wanted her), and Rizzo, played by Peyton List, working a surprisingly solid British accent.  Oh, and she's the sister of Narek from the Borg cube, who is currently putting the moves on Soji.  Spicy!

Still really liking Laris and Zhaban.  Hope nothing happens to either of them.

Get vocal conformation that Riker, Worf, and Geordi are still around.  I'm guessing Troi is still with Riker, but I wonder what is going on with Beverly?  And, err, Wesley, I guess.  Suspect Picard would disagree with me on that last part!

Looks like Picard has to ensemble a ragtag crew now, to get the job done.  I'm assuming Agnes/Alison Pill is already onboard, and now trying to recruit this other character played by Michelle Hurd.  Who clearly doesn't care for Picard due to some kind of history, but if anyone could talk his enemies into aligning for the greater good, it would be him.  You can do it, Captain!

[Llywela]

5 hours ago, Anduin said:

She's new to Trek. Another retired admiral, I think. In the prequel comic, she helped Picard evacuate the Romulans. But the comic wasn't very good, and I didn't finish it. I don't know why they're now on the outs.

Which of the Romulans on-screen do you think was involved with helping Picard evacuate the Romulans? The commodore? The Romulan we see working with and befriending Picard in the Countdown comics was Laris - who still lives with him now, working at the vineyard. Tamlyn Tomita's character isn't in the comics.

1 hour ago, thuganomics85 said:

Get vocal conformation that Riker, Worf, and Geordi are still around.  I'm guessing Troi is still with Riker, but I wonder what is going on with Beverly?  And, err, Wesley, I guess.  Suspect Picard would disagree with me on that last part!

I'm not sure what in-universe reason might be given for not involving Beverley, but off-screen, Gates McFadden has been battling cancer, so they may not want to mention her at all to keep their options open depending on how her illness pans out.

I'm really enjoying the show so far - looking forward to finally meeting the rest of the crew (hopefully) next week!

[greekmom]

It's still trying to find it's flow?!?

Somethings I found puzzling:

1. No one in Starfleet questioned on why or how the androids started the uprise and destruction of the utopia space station/planet/whatever.  I mean to myself it looks like they were tampered with and instead of investigation, they just shut them all down and banned the shit out of them.

2. Starfleet is polluted.  The Commodore is so Romulan like, I don't know how the Admiral thought she could be Vulcan. 

3. After the Romulans assisted the Federation to win the Dominion war but 14 different species were ok with letting them die? When the end of the war deemed they saved millions?!?!? It doesn't make sense.

4. The Romulans and especially the Zhat Vash are so against anything synthetic yet are harvesting parts from the Borg. To do what?  (on a side note: that scene were they have that Nameless Borg half alive and harvesting parts was really hard to watch. Even though I dislike the Borg. 

In my opinion, I think the Romulan brother is going to flip. 

Edited January 31, 2020 by greekmom
cause the dude isn't vulcan but romulan. p'tak!

[Quickbeam]

Already lost! 

[Mr. Sparkle]

19 hours ago, paigow said:

Does Raffi live on the Metron homeworld?? - because that looked like where Kirk!TOS dropped a boulder on the Gorn

That was my thought, and I also heard a reference to the Gorn, which made this Gorn fan thrilled. 

Edited January 31, 2020 by Superclam
Grammah.

[Anduin]

1 hour ago, greekmom said:

1. No one in Starfleet questioned on why or how the androids started the uprise and destruction of the utopia space station/planet/whatever.  I mean to myself it looks like they were tampered with and instead of investigation, they just shut them all down and banned the shit out of them.

2. Starfleet is polluted.  The Commodore is so Romulan like, I don't know how the Admiral thought she could be Vulcan. 

3. After the Romulans assisted the Federation to win the Dominion war but 14 different species were ok with letting them die? When the end of the war deemed they saved millions?!?!? It doesn't make sense.

4. The Romulans and especially the Zhat Vash are so against anything synthetic yet are harvesting parts from the Borg. To do what?  (on a side note: that scene were they have that Nameless Borg half alive and harvesting parts was really hard to watch. Even though I dislike the Borg.

 

The people we see on Mars weren't fond of the android even before, That may be the attitude of the Federation as a whole.

I thought she kept a lid on it while talking to the admiral.

Allies of convenience. Wouldn't be the first time that temporary allies stayed temporary.

Apparently all the borg tech is being sold off. Who to? What are they doing with it? I don't know, but it can't be good.

[Hiyo]

I'm enjoying and liking it so far.

[mrspidey]

12 hours ago, marinw said:

Yet another robot uprising! Have we learned nothing from Battlestar Galactica?

The Romulans have. 

[marinw]

Cue the Irumodic Syndrome! I also read some speculation that Picard's potential nuerological issues may have been a product of having a bunch of Borg Implants implanted and de-planted.

Speaking of, I loved the scenes on the reclaimed cube. I was reminded of some sort of bizarre theme park, or a group of homeless people squatting in an abandoned building.

The treatment of the andriods on Mars was exactly the sort of thing Picard was argueing agianst in "Measure of a Man."

Edited February 1, 2020 by marinw

[marinw]

On 1/30/2020 at 3:17 PM, Netfoot said:

So... Picard demands a starship, and in return will condescend to a drop in rank to... Captain?

Entitled much?

This! I am guilty of putting Jean-Luc on a pedastal, but scenes like this remind me that he is imperfect. He is way too attached to his rank and privledge. 

Or else he has studied the career of James Kirk, who had much more fun as a captian than an admirial.

Edited January 31, 2020 by marinw

[Llywela]

2 hours ago, marinw said:

Or else he has studied the career of James Kirk, who had much more fun as a captian than an admirial.

Kirk did specifically tell Picard not to let anyone promote him, after all...

Crap, which film was that, where they all crossed over? Undiscovered Country? I forget. I rewatched all 7 seasons of TNG ahead of Picard, but didn't quite make it to the films!

[ajsnaves]

27 minutes ago, Llywela said:

Kirk did specifically tell Picard not to let anyone promote him, after all...

Crap, which film was that, where they all crossed over? Undiscovered Country? I forget. I rewatched all 7 seasons of TNG ahead of Picard, but didn't quite make it to the films!

Generations.  Which I have not watched in years, but now kinda want to see if it as mediocre as I remember. 

I saw someone somewhere else comment on the Issac Asimov book, which got me thinking.  Has there ever been any mention of the “Three Law of Robotics” or something similar in Star Trek?  Old school I know, but this is still an old school sci fi show in many ways. Ive been trying to see if there is a way to fit the Synths’ actions into those laws. Obviously not an easy task.  The closest I came is the “Zeroth Rule. A robot may not injure humanity, or through inaction, allow humanity to come to harm.” The Synths’ saw a greater threat to humanity coming if they did not act, and chose the lesser of two evils.  I doubt this is what happened, but an interesting thought, what with them building a rescue fleet to save the Romulans. 

Well just some lunch time musings before going back to work.  Still liking the show. Loving Picard’s Romulan friends, and kinda want them to have their own story line. 

[Netfoot]

1 hour ago, ajsnaves said:

Loving Picard’s Romulan friends

Why do they have different eyebrows?

[Quilt Fairy]

3 hours ago, ajsnaves said:

I saw someone somewhere else comment on the Issac Asimov book, which got me thinking.  Has there ever been any mention of the “Three Law of Robotics” or something similar in Star Trek?  Old school I know, but this is still an old school sci fi show in many ways. Ive been trying to see if there is a way to fit the Synths’ actions into those laws. Obviously not an easy task.  The closest I came is the “Zeroth Rule. A robot may not injure humanity, or through inaction, allow humanity to come to harm.”

This makes me nostalgic for a good Isaac Asimov book.  Maybe I'll reread Caves of Steel.  I'm pretty sure that's where he introduced the Three Laws, or at least explained them fully. 

[marinw]

@Quilt Fairy I think the 3 Laws were first introduced in I, Robot

I vaguely recall it was mentioned that Data was programmed with Asimov's laws.

 

[starri]

On 1/30/2020 at 12:38 PM, paigow said:

Does Raffi live on the Metron homeworld?? - because that looked like where Kirk!TOS dropped a boulder on the Gorn

Vasquez Rocks has served as various planets for every Trek series, except for Disco, which films in Canada.  It's been Vulcan multiple times, most recently in the 2009 Star Trek.

This is the first time it's ever been what it actually is, the mountains of Southern California.

[Cthulhudrew]

3 hours ago, Netfoot said:

Why do they have different eyebrows?

Probably the same reason one has an Irish accent and the other doesn't. Different ethnicities of Romulans, genetic variation, etc. would be my guess.

I have to say that I'm not exactly liking this "secret conspiracy within Starfleet" storyline that's going on, but the show is still intriguing. I hope episode 3 can kick things back up a notch, because compared to the pilot, this felt a little slow.

Edited February 1, 2020 by Cthulhudrew

[Florinaldo]

1 hour ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Different ethnicities of Romulans, genetic variation, etc. would be my guess.

Just as there are similar variations in humans; earlobes can be attached to the neck or not, some people have freckles others not, eyebrows can be bushy or quite sparse, etc.

I, Robot (1950) was indeed the first appearance of Asimov's Laws or Robotics in book form; but they actually were first formulated in 1942, in one of the stories reprinted in that collection as I just confirmed by pulling out the book from my shelves and looking at the copyright pages for the various stories and the magazines they appeared in.

I had trouble buying that Picard would really believe that he would get a ship and a crew for a mission just by asking, without providing any proof of his suspicions. He knows how these things cost and how a bureaucracy work: every cost – personnel, time, supplies and hardware – must be accounted for and justified. Either he is indeed getting senile, or this was just expediency on the part of the writers to place him in a position where he had to turn to someone he had a big disagreement with, while exposing the mole within Starfleet.

This could have been dealt within the first half-hour and then the new character would have gotten an introduction longer than about 20 seconds of screen time at the very end. The season is not very long and they need to stop wasting time.

[paigow]

6 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

 

I have to say that I'm not exactly liking this "secret conspiracy within Starfleet" storyline that's going on

CTU and Starfleet have systemic HR flaws that cannot detect moles....Even Kirk era Admiral Cartwright ended up a villain

[pootlus]

10 hours ago, starri said:

Vasquez Rocks has served as various planets for every Trek series, except for Disco, which films in Canada.  It's been Vulcan multiple times, most recently in the 2009 Star Trek.

I suspect it's an in-joke for fans.

Did anyone else catch the sign on the ex-Borg cube that said something like "5845 days since an assimilation". Ha! Got to have a safe work place.  I assume the grey hexagons weren't just described for fun, and that someone will get assimilated - probably that nice new doctor.

I assume "Nameless" will become important.  I saw a superficial resemblance to Hugh, although I could be hallucinating.

Must admit that when they started talking about Romulan operations, my first thought was Sela.  I wonder what Denise Crosby is up to these days?

 

[MissLucas]

Not as good as the pilot. Picard certainly acted OOC unless we have to assume that his is caused by the abnormality in the parietal lobe.

I got really annoyed by all the technobabble - especially during the scene in Dahj's apartment where it was intersected with a massive exposition dump. So behind the Tal Shiar is an even more sinister cabal lurking? I'm suddenly having flashbacks to 'Orphan Black' with its Matryoshka doll of nefarious corporations.

Who's in charge of the Borg cube reclamation project? And is Commodore Oh officially a Romulan member of Star Fleet or does she pretend to be Vulcan?

 

[Llywela]

3 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

Who's in charge of the Borg cube reclamation project?

The Romulan Free State own it, according to the dialogue, but they are clearly working in partnership with the Federation to study the cube and de-Borg the occupants. The one we saw them working on had been in stasis for 15 years, they said. From what Soji's new friend said, it sounds as if the politics around who gets to work on the cube are a bit tricky.

I think the reason this episode was a little choppier than the first is because it wasn't originally supposed to exist - this introductory phase was meant to be two episodes, but there was too much material to fit into two episodes, so they shuffled things around and made three episodes before leaving Earth.

[starri]

25 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

And is Commodore Oh officially a Romulan member of Star Fleet or does she pretend to be Vulcan?

She's pretending to be Vulcan.  She has an IDIC symbol and a model of the Kir'Shara (the Vulcan equivalent of the Dead Sea Scrolls) on her desk.

Tamlyn Tomita rocks, so she's going to be a great Big Bad.

[Anduin]

2 hours ago, pootlus said:

I suspect it's an in-joke for fans.

Did anyone else catch the sign on the ex-Borg cube that said something like "5845 days since an assimilation". Ha! Got to have a safe work place.  I assume the grey hexagons weren't just described for fun, and that someone will get assimilated - probably that nice new doctor.

5843 days, I think. Around 16 years. They're doing pretty well, but I agree that it's about to change.

1 hour ago, MissLucas said:

I got really annoyed by all the technobabble - especially during the scene in Dahj's apartment where it was intersected with a massive exposition dump.

That's Star Trek's style. While I'm not fond of technobabble either, at least it's consistent.

[Joimiaroxeu]

This episode was too talky at the top IMO. Too much exposition though I get how it's needed to build this show's particular premise.

Is Narek related to Disco's Spock? I think they could almost be twins even though they're different races. Wonder if the resemblance is deliberate?

Lol at Picard being annoyed that the Star Fleet receptionist didn't recognize him. Quite an ego on him, though I guess he's earned it.

When they kept talking about the Tal Shiar I kept hearing "Tasha Yar."

[Anduin]

2 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Is Narek related to Disco's Spock? I think they could almost be twins even though they're different races. Wonder if the resemblance is deliberate?

Apparently the actor auditioned for Spock. While he got knocked back, the producers kept him in mind. Furthermore, who knows what Spock got up to while on Romulus. Narek could be Spock's son.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Quote

Apparently the actor auditioned for Spock. While he got knocked back, the producers kept him in mind. Furthermore, who knows what Spock got up to while on Romulus. Narek could be Spock's son.

Well wouldn't that be something, for one character to be Data's daughter and another to be Spock's son (or grandson?). I've already seen predictions that Narek will turn away from the dark side. Maybe he'll be motivated by the revelation of his true ancestry.

[Anduin]

1 minute ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Well wouldn't that be something, for one character to be Data's daughter and another to be Spock's son (or grandson?). I've already seen predictions that Narek will turn away from the dark side. Maybe he'll be motivated by the revelation of his true ancestry.

Interesting idea. Could be.

[paigow]

1 hour ago, Anduin said:

Interesting idea. Could be.

Going back to Nemesis, Romulans cloned Picard...maybe they were able to clone Spock...he was imprisoned for a few hours in TOS and might have left some DNA on his smoking hot captor.....

Edited February 2, 2020 by paigow

[Anduin]

32 minutes ago, paigow said:

Going back to Nemesis, Romulans cloned Picard...maybe they were able to clone Spock...he was imprisoned for a few hours in TOS and might have left some DNA on his smoking hot captor.....

Forget the few hours, he spent years on Romulus. Pon farr probably came around at least once.

[paigow]

On 1/30/2020 at 10:02 PM, marinw said:

Yet another robot uprising! Have we learned nothing from Battlestar Galactica?

Or Westworld, Blade Runner, Terminator...

[Kromm]

Okay, this episode really dragged.  The things we learned that are important could have been fit into about 10 minutes.  The rest was slow-paced filler.  Add in another 10 minutes for worthwhile characterization and it was STILL too slow paced.  This episode needed more meat, less air.  They could have moved up that meeting with the lady at the end of the episode midpoint and dealt with that encounter FAR earlier.  The stuff with the spies embedded in Starfleet and the angry Admiral were okay, but Picard himself, outside of that, was in the scenes that just could have been cut down. The stuff in the girl's apartment could have been a fraction of the length.  The little medical conference could have been about half as long.  The arguing with his Romulan buddies and exposition could have been half as long too.

On 1/30/2020 at 12:38 PM, paigow said:

Evidence Akiva Goldsman is a useless hack...One of the few people that could have made Game Of Thrones finale worse than it ended up...

Goldsman is a crap writer.  He's proven it many times.  

[Florinaldo]

13 hours ago, starri said:

She's pretending to be Vulcan.  She has an IDIC symbol and a model of the Kir'Shara (the Vulcan equivalent of the Dead Sea Scrolls) on her desk

Was that clearly stated? Could she not be a Vulcan who thinks she knows best and has formed this alliance to achieve goals that would not be accepted by Starfleet's leadership? In her position, she would have to go through regular medical checkups or screenings so her Romulan identity would have been revealed, unless she bribed or recruited people all over Starfleet.

Rizzo described her as an "ally" but nothing more explicit IIRC.

[starri]

24 minutes ago, Florinaldo said:

Was that clearly stated?

She was referred to as such on the after show.

[statsgirl]

I like this episode more than the first one. More twisty plotting, less reliance on CGI effects.

Picard was my least favourite ST captain and TNG my least favourite show but I'm pleasantly surprised with this show.  The storyline is more engaging to me than the Wagon Train Among the Stars of the old show. I love the Romulan's Irish accent; I hope we haven't seen the last of her.

On 1/30/2020 at 5:46 AM, Anduin said:

Trivia, Tamlyn Tomita was in the Babylon 5 pilot! She also played two roles in Stargate SG1 and Atlantis.

Thanks!  I couldn't put where I had seen her before. I wouldn't have got the B5 one.. Looking at her filmography, it feels like she's been in everything.

On 1/31/2020 at 4:45 AM, thuganomics85 said:

Get vocal conformation that Riker, Worf, and Geordi are still around.  I'm guessing Troi is still with Riker, but I wonder what is going on with Beverly?  And, err, Wesley, I guess.  Suspect Picard would disagree with me on that last part!

The women never mattered on TNG anyway. They might get one episode a season but the real action was Picard, Riker, Wesley, Data and Geordi.

[Kromm]

On 1/31/2020 at 4:45 AM, thuganomics85 said:

Get vocal conformation that Riker, Worf, and Geordi are still around.  I'm guessing Troi is still with Riker, but I wonder what is going on with Beverly?  And, err, Wesley, I guess. 

There's a few of those people we don't have to guess about, because they've been in season previews intended for mass consumption.

There's one person on that list I STRONGLY doubt is going to appear no matter what... mostly because he's hosting the aftershow (and I don't think they'd cross the streams like that and have him do both).

[marinw]

I noticed that Jean-Luc was serving his guest actual tea and not replicated tea. Interesting. I think they have real tea and coffee in addition to wine.

Edited February 2, 2020 by marinw

[Hiyo]

Here is a scene from early TNG that plays into the whole real food vs replicated food...

 

[thenj]

On 1/31/2020 at 4:02 AM, marinw said:

Yet another robot uprising! Have we learned nothing from Battlestar Galactica?

Well, this has all happened before and it will happen again.

[AnimeMania]

7 hours ago, Hiyo said:

Here is a scene from early TNG that plays into the whole real food vs replicated food...

That didn't look anything like an omelette. The difference in real vs replicated could be the smells and the having to wait a long time before you can eat it (anticipation).