S04.E13: Whenever You're Ready

[Ailianna]

I watched the episode again (about the fourth time or maybe fifth) and it still made me cry, even though I was also doing something else at the same time.  After so much dislike being discussed, I wanted to put out there that I loved it, and I'm still not ready, but if it has to go, I feel like Eleanor with Chidi--I'll let you go for you, but I will still miss you!

[bros402]

6 hours ago, QuantumMechanic said:

I have to admit I’m puzzled by people saying Team Coachroach (minus Tahani) went through the door because they were too bored to continue.

Not a single one of the characters said they were bored, nor did they play the scenes as if they were bored. They played it as being completed, contented, and/or at peace.

 

I think it went that way in this topic because people viewed the end as a purely human concept - suicide - when it is people who have already lived a life, scratch that, 805 lives - and they are at a point where they feel fulfilled. It's like how Jason said he felt like the air inside of his body was the same as the air outside - he felt as if he was one with the universe. Remember from last season, where they got to the mail room and it smelled like their ideal smell. For Eleanor, that was something like the smell of vomit in a water park's heavily chlorinated pool and for Chidi, that was warm pretzels/absolute moral truth. So it isn't just regular air - it is the perfect smell, catered to the person.

[companionenvy]

8 hours ago, QuantumMechanic said:

I have to admit I’m puzzled by people saying Team Coachroach (minus Tahani) went through the door because they were too bored to continue.

Not a single one of the characters said they were bored, nor did they play the scenes as if they were bored. They played it as being completed, contented, and/or at peace.

They didn't say they were bored, but that would be a reasonable interpretation of, for instance, Chidi noting that he had read all the great literature, and had moved onto trash, or even Tahani finishing her list. The flip side of "I've done everything I wanted to do" is "And now there's nothing left to satisfy me."

Having said that, I agree that they played it as completion and contentment, but that's precisely what doesn't make sense to me (and some others). It isn't clear why non-existence would be preferable to pleasant if now vaguely purposeless existence. And even if they had filled all of their personal goals, it seems to me more in the spirit of this show to then propose continuing to help others as an unending source of purpose, rather than to suggest that once you've achieved personal fulfillment, you're done.

[Guest]

54 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

Having said that, I agree that they played it as completion and contentment, but that's precisely what doesn't make sense to me (and some others). It isn't clear why non-existence would be preferable to pleasant if now vaguely purposeless existence. And even if they had filled all of their personal goals, it seems to me more in the spirit of this show to then propose continuing to help others as an unending source of purpose, rather than to suggest that once you've achieved personal fulfillment, you're done.

Not everyone is driven to help others. For me each character’s ending fit their personality and personal goals. Jason was the first to be ready because his goals were the simplest. Chidi was driven by his pursuit of fundamental truth and his desire establish a deep connection with a soul mate. Tahani wanted to be valued. Of all the humans she the only one who showed any interest in helping others during her time on earth. It makes sense that she was the one to find a greater purpose in helping others. Eleanor is more complicated and I think she could have gone either way. One one hand she did find purpose in helping others but on the other hand she was always more concerned with helping those she had a personal connection to. 

[companionenvy]

1 hour ago, Dani said:

Not everyone is driven to help others. For me each character’s ending fit their personality and personal goals. Jason was the first to be ready because his goals were the simplest. Chidi was driven by his pursuit of fundamental truth and his desire establish a deep connection with a soul mate. Tahani wanted to be valued. Of all the humans she the only one who showed any interest in helping others during her time on earth. It makes sense that she was the one to find a greater purpose in helping others. Eleanor is more complicated and I think she could have gone either way. One one hand she did find purpose in helping others but on the other hand she was always more concerned with helping those she had a personal connection to. 

Not everyone is driven to help others, but I'd say by the time they reached TGP, all of our four - except maybe Jason -- were. I mean, they'd just offered to submit themselves to eternal torment if it meant saving the rest of humanity. It doesn't get much more selfless than that. 

In any case, the idea that the most important thing, or at least among the most important things, is figuring out what our moral obligations are to others is one of the guiding principles of the show. And even if helping others isn't your goal, that doesn't mean choosing eternal nothingness makes sense for any reason but as sense of torment. Maybe I'd buy it for now-actual monk Jason, since the idea of one-ness with the universe and total self-transcendence might be consistent with what I understand of Buddhist philosophy. But otherwise, it didn't track for me. 

[possibilities]

I think the idea that they became nothingness or a vaguely pleasant but purposeless energy that didn't help others is actually not what the show said happened.

[companionenvy]

Whatever they became, though, they didn't know that it was anything other than the end of their existences-in fact, given that they themselves had set the door up under the logic that life needed to be finite to be meaningful, they had plenty of reason to believe it was going to be some kind of annihilation. Which, I'd argue, it was - the bit of light wasn't, to me, any meaningful continuation the individual known as Eleanor Shellstrop.

 

[kaygeeret]

But wasn't there a description of going thru the green door to go to the past, or into the future and I believe a couple more examples of what could happen?

Also, Eleanor had become quite the coach for behaving in kinder better ways  so that by breaking into the points of light and getting busy helping to remind humans of the better and kinder action,  was her 'thru the green door' mission.  Perhaps.

I realize that everyone will have their own point of view on the ending as it was ambiguous and of course whatever happens after death is unknown to us.

But I guess, I see the ending as leaning into that ambiguity and framing it in different ways, some unknowable.

Peace all.

What a great show and what a great discussion this has been and continues to be.

Edited February 12, 2020 by kaygeeret

[janie jones]

On 2/10/2020 at 1:29 AM, companionenvy said:

The flip side of "I've done everything I wanted to do" is "And now there's nothing left to satisfy me."

I don't think it's "And now there is nothing left to satisfy me" as much as it's "And now I no longer need to be satisfied."

 

[Zuleikha]

I took the point of Chidi's wave speech to be emphasizing that it wasn't annihilation per se. This is complicated because what counts as self is ultimately a personal, religious POV. But IMHO, the show POV was clearly that going through the door was more of an evolution of self than an annihilation of self. 

[RainbowBrite]

I can't wrap my head around the Chidi leaving TGP before Eleanor part...he sees that he is causing her pain (IN THE GOOD PLACE!), offers to stay but seems bummed about it, and then she tells him it's ok to leave. In what "Good Place" would all of this emotional turmoil happen??? 

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, RainbowBrite said:

I can't wrap my head around the Chidi leaving TGP before Eleanor part...he sees that he is causing her pain (IN THE GOOD PLACE!), offers to stay but seems bummed about it, and then she tells him it's ok to leave. In what "Good Place" would all of this emotional turmoil happen??? 

I’ve thought about this a lot and ultimately I think it is the difference between the shows version of soulmates and the normal idea of soulmates. They were never meant to be together. They chose to be together until the point when they both knew it was time to go their separate ways. On one level it was extremely unsatisfying but it also mirrors real life. Rarely are two people going to grow and evolve at the same rate. There is the nearly inevitable point where one will be forced to let the other go. Personally I loved the point when Eleanor realized she needed to let him go because the consequences of holding on to him would ultimately be painful for them both. Basically transition can suck but pushing against them is usually fighting a losing battle. 

Edited February 12, 2020 by Guest

[Charlie Meyerson]

Took me a while to get around to watching the finale, so my comment is hardly timely, but: I didn't know that about "utopia"!

[RainbowBrite]

On 2/12/2020 at 1:27 PM, Dani said:

I’ve thought about this a lot and ultimately I think it is the difference between the shows version of soulmates and the normal idea of soulmates. They were never meant to be together. They chose to be together until the point when they both knew it was time to go their separate ways. On one level it was extremely unsatisfying but it also mirrors real life. Rarely are two people going to grow and evolve at the same rate. There is the nearly inevitable point where one will be forced to let the other go. Personally I loved the point when Eleanor realized she needed to let him go because the consequences of holding on to him would ultimately be painful for them both. Basically transition can suck but pushing against them is usually fighting a losing battle. 

I totally agree with that sentiment, but in the setting of the Good Place, I would expect that there would be no pain. I'm saying all of this as an atheist without much exposure to Christian views of Heaven outside of media, so I may be off-base, but I thought it was supposed to be ~perfect in every way~.

[ByTor]

45 minutes ago, RainbowBrite said:

I totally agree with that sentiment, but in the setting of the Good Place, I would expect that there would be no pain. I'm saying all of this as an atheist without much exposure to Christian views of Heaven outside of media, so I may be off-base, but I thought it was supposed to be ~perfect in every way~.

Religion or lack thereof is immaterial in my mind.  I'd think what one would consider a "good place" is a place you wouldn't feel compelled to leave.  If needing to evolve is something that makes someone happy, it would happen in their good place...if having a Janet cater to every whim makes someone happy, then that is their good place.

[possibilities]

So... stasis = good. Change = bad?

[ByTor]

13 hours ago, possibilities said:

So... stasis = good. Change = bad?

As a blanket rule?  Of course not, it depends on an individual.  If change = good to an individual, then their "good place" would involve change.  If stasis = good for an individual, then their "good place" would involve stasis.  If the opposite of what people prefer occurs there, then by definition that cannot truly be their "good place".

[Guest]

20 hours ago, RainbowBrite said:

I totally agree with that sentiment, but in the setting of the Good Place, I would expect that there would be no pain. I'm saying all of this as an atheist without much exposure to Christian views of Heaven outside of media, so I may be off-base, but I thought it was supposed to be ~perfect in every way~.

The Good Place has never been based on the Christian view of heaven. This season as been more consistent with Eastern religions than anything you will find in Christianity. 

[ByTor]

2 hours ago, Dani said:

The Good Place has never been based on the Christian view of heaven. This season as been more consistent with Eastern religions than anything you will find in Christianity. 

I always felt like TPTB went out of their way to not be associated with any religious leanings, especially since Michael explained in the 1st episode that (paraphrasing) "Muslims were a little right, Hindus were a little right, Jews...Christians..."  

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, ByTor said:

I always felt like TPTB went out of their way to not be associated with any religious leanings, especially since Michael explained in the 1st episode that (paraphrasing) "Muslims were a little right, Hindus were a little right, Jews...Christians..."  

For the first 3 and a half seasons I agree with you. The final system introduced feels heavily inspired by Eastern religious concepts. Chidi’s wave analogy comes from a book on Buddha by Thich Nhat Hanh. 

[possibilities]

The cessation of craving, and the surrender to bliss is what I thought the final episode was talking about, which is a Buddhist idea. Many people are interpreting it as boredom, but the way I understood it, it was the end of neediness and the transformation to peace.

[Penman61]

On 2/3/2020 at 11:57 AM, Zuleikha said:

I think the show bit off more than it was willing to chew. It was too hard for it to both be a sitcom and a serious exploration of an afterlife system. 

Much as I enjoyed the show, this is how I see it.

This Shimmer was neither a dessert topping NOR a floor wax. Sadly.

[companionenvy]

On 2/14/2020 at 10:59 PM, possibilities said:

The cessation of craving, and the surrender to bliss is what I thought the final episode was talking about, which is a Buddhist idea. Many people are interpreting it as boredom, but the way I understood it, it was the end of neediness and the transformation to peace.

This is where I think the sense that the show but off more than it can chew comes from. Because iin theory, I think that is what they wanted to suggest - but they were still more or less depicting the characters as they always had, which made it hard to see them as these beings who had evolved past desire to the point where choosing total loss of self over a continued pleasant existence, let alone pursuing other possiblities (as Tahani did in becoming an architect) seems to make sense. 

[Kiddvideo]

It’s been a couple weeks. I’ve sat with the ending and still hate it. Hate it. I used to rewatch the first seasons because there was always something I’d missed such as a background sign or reference about their pasts or their futures. No more. Having them truly die ruined the entire series for me.

The ending tells me that being good while on Earth doesn’t matter because I’ll eventually go to The Good Place. What does it matter if people who go through the door become lights that help others — it only shortens their time being tested. I might as well do whatever the hell I want while alive bc I’ll get to The Good Place eventually. What do we owe to each other? Not a goddamn thing apparently. See you around the bearimy!

[ByTor]

40 minutes ago, Kiddvideo said:

I used to rewatch the first seasons because there was always something I’d missed such as a background sign or reference about their pasts or their futures. No more. Having them truly die ruined the entire series for me.

I'm with you there.  I always had season 1 on in the background to fall asleep to as pleasant background noise, but not anymore.

[SmithW6079]

The Deseret News has an interview with one of the philosophers advising the show.

The Good Place’ had a controversial ending. Here’s what the show’s philosophy adviser had to say about it

Spoiler:

Spoiler

She disagrees with it.

I have to say, I was bothered by the ending. While I understand that these people are already dead, the essence of who they are -- Eleanor, Chidi, Tahani, Jason -- has continued from life to after death. In all the eons they spent in The Good Place, they are still, essentially, who they were in life.  I must confess that every time I think of the door (even now), I get a jolt of anxiety. It is the end of existence as they have known it. It is final.

Going through the door puts a permanent end to that. It is the door, not death, that is truly the embodiment of Shakespeare's "undiscovered country":

Quote

But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscovered country from whose bourn
No traveler returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?

I thought it was a mistake for Jason to pop up after he supposedly went through the door. To me, it didn't show that he had become a monk in reality; it showed that he wasn't ready to make the transition because he had to find the necklace he made for Janet. 

And I don't understand how it works -- what if your overwhelming desire was to meet Abraham Lincoln, but hey, Abe grew "content" and passed through the door before you even got there. Does that mean you missed your chance? Did Chidi never get to hear Socrates or Plato lecture in Ancient Greece? He and Eleanor went to the ruins in modern time.

I was also disappointed with how pedestrian The Good Place seemed. If I was there, I'd be making visits to stand on the sands of Mars, paraglide in the winds of Jupiter, watch the suns rise in Alpha Centauri.

[bros402]

8 hours ago, SmithW6079 said:

And I don't understand how it works -- what if your overwhelming desire was to meet Abraham Lincoln, but hey, Abe grew "content" and passed through the door before you even got there. Does that mean you missed your chance? Did Chidi never get to hear Socrates or Plato lecture in Ancient Greece? He and Eleanor went to the ruins in modern time.

I was also disappointed with how pedestrian The Good Place seemed. If I was there, I'd be making visits to stand on the sands of Mars, paraglide in the winds of Jupiter, watch the suns rise in Alpha Centauri.

They could experience that behind the Green Doors - anything they can think of, walk through the door, and they are there. Jason drove carts with monkeys and Draculas - I imagine you could go through the door and watch the suns rise on Alpha Centauri and visit Mars and Jupiter.

Chidi & Eleanor going to the Parthenon in modern times was because Chidi went there during college - he had probably already gone there in ancient times, if he wanted to.

[possibilities]

If your idea of the ultimate is the ceaseless creation and satisfaction of desires, then this would be a frustrating or scary or depressing ending, because it implies that there is something greater than craving and the scratching of that itch.

If your idea of the ultimate is to not be itchy, and to become something previously unimagined, then the door represents the eventual embracing of whatever comes, including the unknown, because it surpasses anything you have yet experienced or imagined. It's saying that the ego is finite and eternity is infinite.

As long as you are attached to having the ego-self, you would hate the door and not want to go through it. The show allows you not to ever go through, and to continue forever doing whatever you want. So why is it threatening to anyone, just that it exists and others choose it? Maybe the ego doesn't want to consider that it might not be the only game in town, that it has limits, and that some beings don't want one anymore.

I personally have plenty of stuff I want to do and experience, so I wouldn't choose the door. But I like the idea that at some point, in theory, I could be done with everything I can imagine, and would trust and be peaceful enough to be ready for anything, even what I don't know enough to think of it, and to be able to rest, and trust, and not be needing to pursue anything anymore. It's restful.

It's like recycling. You complete your purpose and go back into the resource pool to be re-formed into something else. But in this system you get to choose! You aren't forced to change, or to stay the same. It's total freedom.

[maddie965]

On 2/1/2020 at 4:27 PM, possibilities said:

RE suicide vs Nirvana: I 100% thought the show might be interpreted as glorifying suicide, and that worries me even now. I'm very glad to read the post from someone who has experience with depression and suicidal ideation and didn't have that reaction!

I am not trying to convince anyone who thinks otherwise, but for those who don't really get what made me personally react more toward the bliss/Nirvana side, but who are curious about it, this is what I can say about that issue....

Have you ever had a moment where you felt totally at one with someone else? Maybe when you were in love, or during sex. Or just... any time you felt really happy, in a moment you wanted to last forever? That is bliss. And I think that if you got to where you had absolutely gotten to that point, and it DID last forever, you would have nothing left to "do" or strive for. It would all be the same-- in a good way. It's not boredom.

What I think the show was trying to portray, and maybe it didn't succeed for everyone, but this is how I took it, is that it's like after a certain point you can no longer maintain your finite form because your bliss exceeds what you can finitely contain. And so you kind of turn into pure energy and it rains down on others, and helps them get a glimmer of that oneness/kindness/happiness/perfection, which adds momentum to their own journey toward that state.

And once you get to that point, trying to contain it amounts to resistance, or struggle, like trying to hold back the tide.

What I find most interesting about the way the show handled it, is that they made it a conscious choice for people to allow themselves to burst into fireflies, rather than something that just kind of happens when they attain a certain degree of "completion".

I think that element of choice was supposed to make it more comforting to people, so they didn't feel like anything was being forced on them. But it accidentally made a lot of people see it as a glorification of suicide, and obscured the bliss part.

I've read a lot of posts and reviews about the finale, and it all came back to the same feeling inside of me. The episode does glorify suicide. It got me very disturbed. Just talking about it triggers a hundred different feelings in me. I would not recommend it to anyone suffering from depression, ever.

Possibilities, I loved your post, but I think there's a big difference between what the show was trying to say and what it really said. Your idea of bliss is lovely. A natural progression where your bliss surpasses you body and you become a being of pure energy would be a great ending for the characters. That's not what I saw. I saw people who lost interest in life and decided to end it. Period.

I wish there was no door. I wish they all evolved together, till they became those bright lights in the infinity, still connected, still together. Now that would have been a good ending. I shall forget about this one, and let the show end when Eleanor and Chidi are seating on the sofa, contemplating eternity together..

This is a great philosophical analysis of the finale.

https://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2020/02/good-places-finale-made-heaven-look-hopeless/606001/

 

Edited February 22, 2020 by maddie965

[scarynikki12]

The finale has brought on passionate discussion. That's ok and natural when a show ends. What isn't ok is targeting your fellow posters. If you don't like what someone has written then scroll past or use the Ignore feature.

Also there's nothing to win here. Debating and explaining are fine but trying to convince other posters to agree with your view just puts the thread into a vicious circle of "I'm right/you're wrong" which doesn't benefit anyone. Be careful not to fall into that trap.

[LBS]

On 1/31/2020 at 9:26 AM, LBS said:

 

My twin sister is dying of stage 4 cancer.  She has a loving husband and 3 kids under 6.  We are only 41.  Death has become a reality and not a concept for me this last year.   It scares me and and makes me sad.  This show and especially this finale made me less scared and less sad.  I can picture her up there in the Good Place and then eventually becoming a spark of hope when she is finally completely at peace.   I hope and pray that it's not for Bearimy's and Bearimy's and Bearimy's from now but life throws you for loops.  

The scene between Chidi and Eleanor before he leaves was heartbreaking in its simplicity.  I sobbed.  It hit hard for lots of reasons but it is one I will watch over and over because it was so comforting.  I can believe that.  I can understand that.  I'm going to miss this show.   

Picture a wave. In the ocean. You can see it, measure it, its height, the way the sunlight refracts when it passes through. And it's there. And you can see it, you know what it is. It's a wave.

And then it crashes in the shore and it's gone. But the water is still there. The wave was just a different way for the water to be, for a little while. You know it's one conception of death for Buddhists: the wave returns to the ocean, where it came from and where it's supposed to be

 

My twin died on Thursday.  One week after our 42nd birthday.  I’m saying that quote at her funeral.  I hope she’s in the Good Place now because for the first time ever I don’t know where my twin is and I can’t feel her anymore.  

[Babalu]

I’m so very sorry, @LBS. I know how you feel, at least inasmuch as anyone can know how somebody else feels at such a difficult moment, because I’ve had much the same experience since my husband died 2 1/2 years ago. I don’t know, of course, but I pretty much believe they’re in a “place” (not a place) that’s inaccessible to us right now unless we’re very enlightened (which I’m not) but maybe we’ll feel united with them when it’s our turn to sink back into the ocean. *

* The Showtime series The Affair’s theme song was Container by Fiona Apple. I love the lyrics, part of which are:

I have only one thing to do / And that’s be the wave that I am / and then sink back into the ocean

My heart is with you right now.

[bros402]

22 hours ago, LBS said:

My twin died on Thursday.  One week after our 42nd birthday.  I’m saying that quote at her funeral.  I hope she’s in the Good Place now because for the first time ever I don’t know where my twin is and I can’t feel her anymore.  

❤️

As someone with cancer, I hope you'll join me in saying the motto of one of my online cancer support groups: F&#@ CANCER!

[kaygeeret]

I rewatched season 4 on Netflix today and the last episode just amazed and enthralled me and of course left me in tears - of the good kind I assure you.  I was shocked that even in a rewatch it had such emotional power - the entire season building to the last episode.

Just...what a beautiful show overall, but the last season is outstanding in so many ways it is difficult to express.  I am so sorry that it was not more 'popular' as it is a very gentle and humane show.

I love that a number of the generation below me are passionate fans as well.

Television at it's best!

[jaigurudeva]

On 2/1/2020 at 4:03 PM, Snapdragon said:

For me personally, a better ending would have been them getting to the Good Place and everything being great for everyone except for Michael, who can't fully enjoy it since he's a demon so Eleanor talks to the Judge and gets him to be reborn as a human (as a baby, not the weird dropping him off on earth as a 72 year old man thing) and we see a montage of his human life that ends with his death, then he wakes up in the waiting room and Eleanor peeks out the door and says, "Michael?  Come on in."  Series comes full circle.  Everyone ends up happy.  

This is the best ending, right here, and I'm going to go ahead and mentally rewrite my memory of the finale so it's just this.

I really didn't like this finale. If the series had ended in episode 12, with that last scene of Chidi and Eleanor cuddling in front of the sunset, it would've been great. I don't know what the hell happened in this last episode.

Throughout the series, the show prided itself on offering a myriad of philosophical ideologies, from Kant to Locke to Aquinas, but never pinning any single one down as “the right one.”

“There is no answer,” Chidi discovers. “Eleanor is the answer.”

The True Answers are only the ones we find for ourselves.

~lol jk, here’s the answer: the meaning of life is that it ends.~

TPTB suddenly needed to get on a soapbox (even making a cameo to do it) to grandstand their own homebrew philosophy and straight-up tell us what gives our lives meaning. They lost all respect for the audience in allowing us to make our own meaning from the show and decided to spoon-feed us their own.

Not only does this leave a bad taste in the mouth for those who don’t find their philosophic idea (or its execution, i.e. the characters' self-executions) palatable, it also completely undermines everything the show has built up the past four seasons, and shafts one of the main characters on the show. (After all, doesn’t that suggest Janet’s (not-)life ultimately has no meaning, despite all the connections, self-improvements, and self-realization she’s experienced?) It feels like immediately after the reveal of the ultimate moral of the story, that true meaning is what we find in each other and make for ourselves, the show takes a U-turn and makes a decision for us: this is what we say gives life meaning, like it or leave it.

I'm leaving it.

The entire show, at its core, has been about how developing empathy, compassion, and understanding to form genuine human connections makes us better people and gives our continued existence (in life or the afterlife) meaning. The entire point of the show was that Chidi, Eleanor, Jason, and Tahani’s lives didn’t have true meaning in life until they found one another in the afterlife (where they fundamentally didn’t have mortality) and chose and worked to make themselves, one another, and the universe better because of that bond.

But suddenly, at the end, that bond means nothing. The found family that was so ride-or-die for each other that they were willing to face eternal torture with one another rather than be split apart just...dissolves. Everyone drifts off to do their own thing in paradise until they most of them reach pseudo-Nirvana/heavenly ennui and choose to individually self-annihilate and leave their loved ones behind. (And yes, the problem with their self-annihilation ending is the choice of it. They wanted The Door to represent mortality, but the action of choosing “death” is suicide. Did they not even think their metaphor all the way through?)

Throughout the entire story, it was never mortality that gave them purpose, it was making connections, building relationships, loving one another, and choosing to be better because of them. The finale lost sight of that.

[WatchrTina]

Well, I retired in July, in the middle of the 2020 Pandemic, so if ever there was a time for a binge-re-watch of the entire series, this is it.  I had managed to forget a lot of the plot details so much of it was new again.  But I could not "un-know" the big reveal -- that they were actually in the Bad Place and that Michael was a demon intent on tormenting them.  It's actually a different (possibly better) show when you know that.  Periodically during my re-watch I would get up and come here to read the comments from when the show first aired and it was fun to see people complaining about plot points in early episodes that were actually clues to the underlying secret.  It was a dangerous gambit by the show-runners.  I suspect some people got fed up with the show due to what they viewed as plot inconsistencies that signaled bad writing, and as a result some viewers may have stopped watching before the big reveal.  But for those of us who stuck around . . . what a pay off!

I was shocked to see that the show's finale aired earlier this year.  In 2020.  How can that be?  I swear this has been the longest damned year.  I guess all the real life turmoil this year is the reason I had completely forgotten how the show ended.  So it was fun to watch it all over again, as if for the first time.

And once again I was amazed at the globe-trotting they did to get those shots of Chidi and Eleanor's farewell tour for the final episode.  I'm sure many of those shots were done with green-screen wizardry (especially the Athens shots because there were WAY too few tourists at the Parthenon) but I think they actually went to Paris for those shots and that was cool.

But I cried.  A lot.  What a strange, wonderful show.

And what an amazing cast.  I can't wait to see what all these actors get up to next.  

[Guest]

2 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

I'm sure many of those shots were done with green-screen wizardry (especially the Athens shots because there were WAY too few tourists at the Parthenon) but I think they actually went to Paris for those shots and that was cool.

They filmed in Athens and Paris. In the podcast they talk a lot about filming those scenes. They were allowed to film at the Acropolis an hour before it opened. 

[bros402]

7 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

And once again I was amazed at the globe-trotting they did to get those shots of Chidi and Eleanor's farewell tour for the final episode.  I'm sure many of those shots were done with green-screen wizardry (especially the Athens shots because there were WAY too few tourists at the Parthenon) but I think they actually went to Paris for those shots and that was cool.

But I cried.  A lot.  What a strange, wonderful show.

And what an amazing cast.  I can't wait to see what all these actors get up to next.  

They filmed at the Parthenon - they talked about it on the podcast. They were very very very lucky to be able to film there.

[WatchrTina]

So . . . apparently I wasn't done with this show.  Below is a link to the table-read for the final episode.

People cried.  I cried watching it.  But, given the show, there were mostly lots of laughs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIJl1xtJjM8

ETA:  It is by watching the YouTube video above that I finally realized that Eleanor is constantly wearing horizontal stripes.   That should have been my first clue in the very first episode that she was in The Bad Place. 🙂   Kristen wore horizontal stripes to the table read for the finale.  How very Method of her.  

ETA2: I've discovered additional content -- a series of shorts called the "The Selection" which shows Sean and his team of Bad Place denizens deciding who the new test subjects should be in Season 4.  Here's a link to the first of the six videos. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DZcLh9c1_s

Edited October 7, 2020 by WatchrTina

[bros402]

12 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

So . . . apparently I wasn't done with this show.  Below is a link to the table-read for the final episode.

People cried.  I cried watching it.  But, given the show, there were mostly lots of laughs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIJl1xtJjM8

ETA:  It is by watching the YouTube video above that I finally realized that Eleanor is constantly wearing horizontal stripes.   That should have been my first clue in the very first episode that she was in The Bad Place. 🙂   Kristen wore horizontal stripes to the table read for the finale.  How very Method of her.  

ETA2: I've discovered additional content -- a series of shorts called the "The Selection" which shows Sean and his team of Bad Place denizens deciding who the new test subjects should be in Season 4.  Here's a link to the first of the six videos. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DZcLh9c1_s

The selection was so good

[peggy06]

On 2/3/2020 at 3:57 AM, ByTor said:

Which makes me wonder, a place that bores people into wanting to annihilate themselves...to me that can't be a "Good Place."  That's another thing that bugs me about the finale, all those prior seasons fighting to get to a place that turns out to be not all that good.  So much for hanging out on the dot of the "i".

Funny thing. I was raised in a  religion that believes in Heaven and Hell, and in my younger days, I used to worry that Heaven seemed boring. I think this was because I envisioned Heaven as a place where we were our corporeal selves and had the same feelings and wants as we had during life. It was explained to me that this wouldn't be the case; we would be beyond those considerations.

This is pretty much how the show presented it, too, with the exception that it wasn't boring...at first. For me, delving into the details of The Good Place was the show's mistake. And they went out of their way to make it look bad. Hypatia could barely put together a coherent thought. The long termers all seemed depressed and/or zombie-like. Shakespeare lost his mojo. The PTB were shown absconding as soon as Michael was sworn in. Why was this even necessary? Just do the thing where Michael is made human (maybe with a full life and no memory of what he's been through), and end on a scene like Eleanor and Chidi on the couch the first time.

Or, if they wanted to introduce the concept of becoming one with the universe, either have that happen as the hot air balloon floats farther away, or have them spontaneously turn into light spheres as their selves evolve beyond human emotions/needs. Having them make the choice introduces very troubling associations.

The finale was moving and yet it does bother me. 

 

 

[kaygeeret]

7 hours ago, peggy06 said:

Funny thing. I was raised in a  religion that believes in Heaven and Hell, and in my younger days, I used to worry that Heaven seemed boring. I think this was because I envisioned Heaven as a place where we were our corporeal selves and had the same feelings and wants as we had during life. It was explained to me that this wouldn't be the case; we would be beyond those considerations.

This is pretty much how the show presented it, too, with the exception that it wasn't boring...at first. For me, delving into the details of The Good Place was the show's mistake. And they went out of their way to make it look bad. Hypatia could barely put together a coherent thought. The long termers all seemed depressed and/or zombie-like. Shakespeare lost his mojo. The PTB were shown absconding as soon as Michael was sworn in. Why was this even necessary? Just do the thing where Michael is made human (maybe with a full life and no memory of what he's been through), and end on a scene like Eleanor and Chidi on the couch the first time.

Or, if they wanted to introduce the concept of becoming one with the universe, either have that happen as the hot air balloon floats farther away, or have them spontaneously turn into light spheres as their selves evolve beyond human emotions/needs. Having them make the choice introduces very troubling associations.

The finale was moving and yet it does bother me. 

 

 

As a kid I had exactly the same reaction - -heaven sure sounds boring, but I sure don't want to burn forever.  What a terrible choice.

So, for me, the ending was perfect in the sense that if eternity was endless 'sameness',  every human on the face of the planet would wind up bored.

BUT, if we are given choices, well, that's the ticket, because I can determine when I have accomplished ...... whatever.  I read it as perfect peace with myself and all I am.

So, for me, the ending was beautiful.  AND choice is still involved because we see Elinor becoming a spot of light to humans, but we really don't know what the others went to as I didn't see the little 'fireflies' for Chidi or Jason for instance.  I could, of course, just have missed them.

Clearly I loved the ending with it's endless possibilities open to be searched.

[WatchrTina]

On 10/11/2020 at 7:23 PM, kaygeeret said:

if we are given choices, well, that's the ticket, because I can determine when I have accomplished ...... whatever.  I read it as perfect peace with myself and all I am.

I liked the finale even though it was bittersweet and made me cry.  But I think the journey I liked best was Tahani's.  She made peace with her sister and her parents, and then she made good use of her unlimited time to accomplish all her goals, many of which involved learning new skills and appreciating art purely for art's sake (though she DID seem to like the praise she received for her chair . . . hmmmm.)  Anyway, that journey brought her to the realization that what she now wanted to was help others, which led her into her new role.  I liked that character arc.

Edited October 13, 2020 by WatchrTina

[Loandbehold]

22 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

Anyway, that journey brought her to the realization that what she now wanted to was help others, which led her into her new role.  

Not just helping others, but doing so for them and not to prove something to her parents or her sister, or to get on magazine covers. It really did show how much she had grown.

 

23 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

I liked that character arc.

Me too. 

[WatchrTina]

I just watched an episode of CBS Sunday Morning in which they did a profile of David Lee Roth (the rock star).  He has taken up Japanese pen-and-watercolor painting.  He's been studying it for two years.  His teacher had him paint the same view out the window for months.  When David asked him when they would move on to something new his teacher said, "When the weather changes."

That is just the most Tahani-in-the-afterlife-mastering-woodworking thing ever.  And it really happened.

Unless . . . a rock star being forced to learn Japanese watercolor techniques is actually a form of torture.  <WatchrTina pauses to think about the current headlines >  OMG!  Are WE in the Bad Place?

Edited October 18, 2020 by WatchrTina

[possibilities]

15 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

 Are WE in the Bad Place?

I ask myself this question whenever I turn on the news....

[SmithW6079]

I was re-reading some of the posts here about the finale, and the same dread and anxiety I experienced the first time at the thought of oblivion by going through the door came roaring back again. Guess I'm not ready to step through.

[kaygeeret]

41 minutes ago, SmithW6079 said:

I was re-reading some of the posts here about the finale, and the same dread and anxiety I experienced the first time at the thought of oblivion by going through the door came roaring back again. Guess I'm not ready to step through.

Yes, exactly!

Hope your journey is filled with joy and accomplishment.

[John Potts]

Well, for me, that ranks somewhere between Deep Space 9 and ST:TNG* for the best Finales. I get that it might not appeal to some, but for me it was the best ending they could come to. The only slight disappointment for me was that they didn't develop what was happening in Heaven the real Good Place a little more, but I imagine it's harder to portray Heaven than hell. I was also slightly surprised the gang didn't all go through the arch together (though Chidi was pretty obviously waiting for Eleanor to make that choice - and she realised that, hence their trip to Paris and the edible neglige). Though Jason's failing to find the necklace he'd made for Janet was such a Jason thing to do!

Liked to see Eleanor encouraging Mindy to "take the test". She's come a long way from the selfish a-hole she was at the start to really caring about other people (she was prepared to spend eternity in hell to spare humanity!), so it was nice to see her thinking about Mindy.

And I did like that this episode supports my theory that "Janet is God" (or as close as TGP gets to one). She's the one being who remains in the Good Place even after everyone passes on (and she is not just immortal but also apparently Omniscient and Omnipotent... most of the time).

On 2/1/2020 at 3:08 AM, Blue Plastic said:

I did wonder how Michael was supposed to support himself on earth.  Janet gave him some money but it wasn't clear to me if it was supposed to be enough to support a modest retirement or if it was just enough for him to get a place to live and a few pieces of clothing and some food for a little while but then he'd have to support himself. 

I believe Janet said he'd have "enough to live off, but not enough to live like [a celebrity]" (maybe Jay-Z?). So he'd have enough to retire to (say) Florida - or maybe buy a bar in Boston...

On 2/1/2020 at 7:27 PM, possibilities said:

RE the fireflies: I saw it as not just one tiny act, but that the sparks (not just one tiny spark, but many sparks equivalent to all of Eleanor)-- proportionate to all her Bearamies of existence-- going into the world and being gifted to others in multiple ways.

That was my interpretation too. By the time you get to the (real) Good Place, you've become your best self. Once you pass through the arch, that essence pervades the Universe, giving inspiration to those still on Earth.

* Me? A Trekkie? Whatever gave you that idea?

[Loandbehold]

15 hours ago, John Potts said:

And I did like that this episode supports my theory that "Janet is God" (or as close as TGP gets to one). She's the one being who remains in the Good Place even after everyone passes on (and she is not just immortal but also apparently Omniscient and Omnipotent... most of the time).

She will, but for "now" Tahani also remains as one of the Architects. 

Quote

Well, for me, that ranks somewhere between Deep Space 9 and ST:TNG* for the best Finales. 

 

15 hours ago, John Potts said:

* Me? A Trekkie? Whatever gave you that idea?

As a Trekkie, you no doubt recall what Kirk told Uhura in The Trouble with Tribbles - "Too much of anything, lieutenant, even love isn't necessarily a good thing." Which I think explains why after so many bearimies, they felt it was time to leave The Good Place.