S15.E10: The Heroes' Journey

[ILoveReading]

So Dean's lactose intolerant which allows him to eat ice cream, but he still gets an ice cream headache.  Chuck isn't really good at this protection stuff.

Also were their lives really easier when just because they didn't get a cavity when they were homeless and had to sleep in car.  Didn't know if John was going to come back when he left?  The constant worry and pressure Dean felt to keep Sam safe?  The neglect at the hands of John?

Tell me at what point the Winchesters had it easy becasue of God?

[Aeryn13]

The writers are patting themselves on the back for this oh-so-clever uber-meta storyline about God being a writer and writing this particular story.

And there is a big problem with constant fourth-wall-breaking, a story is more effective the more immersive it is and makes viewers forget, to a point, that they view a story. If you do the opposite and remind them every five seconds, it`s just a lame story, they cannot begin to get into it. 

I don`t want the characters in the story to discuss the writing process onscreen. Garth pointing out the perks and downsides of being the protagonists of a story means, questions if he is a supporting character etc. 

Let alone the inconsistencies with its own universe here. Nearly every superhero has a story where their powers get taken away and they must muddle through a normal day. However, the Winchesters are not superheroes, they are still normal human beings. It is ridiculous to claim they never had a cold, never went to the dentist or any of those things.

It is equally ridiculous to take all their skills away and claim that everything came from Chuck and they are now "normal".  I have no idea in what idiotic world Dabb lives and if he believes utter incompetence is a sign of "normalcy" but utterly normal people can pick locks. A classmate in fifth grade once picked the lock of my own house for me when I had locked myself out and noone was home. Granted, I couldn`t do it but he could. People also have fight training and weapons training and all that. It is not superhero-ish to learn that. 

We know from the show`s freaking background that the brothers grew up in the hunting lifestyle and John taught them all kinds of things. Noone magically beamed that stuff into their heads on day. 

And to top it all off, Dabb couldn`t even be consistent with his stupid message within his own stupid episode. If being "normal" means you suck and have no skills, then how does Garth who has at best been portrayed as a halfwit hunter, and now werewolf or not, manages to suddenly be "the big awesome hero" here? Did Chuck write him that way for an episode? Because if not, going by "only the writers pet can manage", he shouldn`t have. 

  

[ILoveReading]

45 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I've also decided to headcanon that Baby Sam and Baby Cas we're aptly named  because they were crying and whining.

I accept this reasoning. 

The answer was 'yes he did'

More proof Jensen Ackles isn't human

Edited January 25, 2020 by ILoveReading

[ahrtee]

17 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

So Dean's lactose intolerant which allows him to eat ice cream, but he still gets an ice cream headache.  Chuck isn't really good at this protection stuff.

Also were their lives really easier when just because they didn't get a cavity when they were homeless and had to sleep in car.  Didn't know if John was going to come back when he left?  The constant worry and pressure Dean felt to keep Sam safe?  The neglect at the hands of John?

Tell me at what point the Winchesters had it easy becasue of God?

Well, Chuck didn't stop Baby from being totalled by the semi.  Or rolled by demons.  Or even scratched by Abaddon.  Didn't even prevent the broken tail light that got them stopped by the police in NRFTW.  

He didn't stop any of the injuries (physical or mental) that they both suffered.  Didn't even fix Sam's broken wrist or shoulder.  Didn't stop either of them getting shot multiple times, or tortured in hell.  I'd say that's worse than a few cavities.  (Though that may explain Red Meat....☺️) 

I'd say he saved them from death any number of times, but he also put them in the situations where they were killed or nearly so innumerable times, just to see how they'd get out of it.  So my opinion is that he prevented/reversed the big things like death and the little things like colds and cavities that might distract them.  He might have given them good luck in some fights, a little less obvious than Dean's luck in Bad Day at Black Rock-- but the skills were all theirs.   

[sarthaz]

57 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

My headcanon wrt to Dean not having one of Garth's  twins named after him is that Gertie has a middle name of Deanna. I've also decided to headcanon that Baby Sam and Baby Cas we're aptly named  because they were crying and whining.

LOL. I immediately decided it was because Dean can't be duplicated, and his name should simply be retired. Every year on his birthday, all of humanity calls themselves "Dean" in his honor, and then the name goes back in the vault until next year.

[Castiels Cat]

27 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

The writers are patting themselves on the back for this oh-so-clever uber-meta storyline about God being a writer and writing this particular story.

And there is a big problem with constant fourth-wall-breaking, a story is more effective the more immersive it is and makes viewers forget, to a point, that they view a story. If you do the opposite and remind them every five seconds, it`s just a lame story, they cannot begin to get into it. 

I don`t want the characters in the story to discuss the writing process onscreen. Garth pointing out the perks and downsides of being the protagonists of a story means, questions if he is a supporting character etc. 

Let alone the inconsistencies with its own universe here. Nearly every superhero has a story where their powers get taken away and they must muddle through a normal day. However, the Winchesters are not superheroes, they are still normal human beings. It is ridiculous to claim they never had a cold, never went to the dentist or any of those things.

It is equally ridiculous to take all their skills away and claim that everything came from Chuck and they are now "normal".  I have no idea in what idiotic world Dabb lives and if he believes utter incompetence is a sign of "normalcy" but utterly normal people can pick locks. A classmate in fifth grade once picked the lock of my own house for me when I had locked myself out and noone was home. Granted, I couldn`t do it but he could. People also have fight training and weapons training and all that. It is not superhero-ish to learn that. 

We know from the show`s freaking background that the brothers grew up in the hunting lifestyle and John taught them all kinds of things. Noone magically beamed that stuff into their heads on day. 

And to top it all off, Dabb couldn`t even be consistent with his stupid message within his own stupid episode. If being "normal" means you suck and have no skills, then how does Garth who has at best been portrayed as a halfwit hunter, and now werewolf or not, manages to suddenly be "the big awesome hero" here? Did Chuck write him that way for an episode? Because if not, going by "only the writers pet can manage", he shouldn`t have. 

  

Chuck wrote this episode. Stupid plot twists and on point lessons for the Winchesters are established clues to a s 15 written by Chuck very special episode.  He is just banging them out. Chuck is a hack.

It was in the episode. God hates us. Of course they have skills. They don't in this episode because God hates them. And yes... Garth is usually hapless and needs saving except he saves the day here.

For me the problem with the non-stop meta and Chuck's hard-on for Dean is that as a viewer one has to be asking oneself what is Dabb thinking. Dabb is making the last season a meta commentary on the creator hating his creations for misbehaving and in particular he is mad at Dean for not staying within his boundaries. It all seems very P.A. which is epitomized by Garth not naming a baby after Dean?!  

[Icarus]

I absolutely and utterly hated this episode.  For the first time EVER on a first watch I forwarded some of the scenes.  This is not the show I have loved for 13 years and I am devastated that this is the last Season.  I didn't come close to laughing at any of it.  Normally I can find some parts of an episode that make it worth watching and I enjoy reading reviews to see what other people think - I quite often go to WFB to see what they have to say and sometimes it does help me enjoy an episode more but NO ONE could make me enjoy this one.  Which is a problem in the sense that Jensen apparently thought it was good - hopefully this was just because he enjoyed learning how to tap dance and not the premise behind it i.e. normal.

59 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

It is equally ridiculous to take all their skills away and claim that everything came from Chuck and they are now "normal".  I have no idea in what idiotic world Dabb lives and if he believes utter incompetence is a sign of "normalcy" but utterly normal people can pick locks. A classmate in fifth grade once picked the lock of my own house for me when I had locked myself out and noone was home. Granted, I couldn`t do it but he could. People also have fight training and weapons training and all that. It is not superhero-ish to learn that

and this - could not say it any better.

[tennisgurl]

First of all, what the hell was with the musical cues in the background? I've heard less over the top "wacky" music in Three Stooges sketches! I get that they were going to goofy comedy here, but this was seriously over the top. 

So, hold the phone, Sam and Dean actually had Chucks help for all of their past stories and thats why they do so well at everything? What the fuck? Why are they acting like Sam and Dean got depowered or something, they have always just been normal guys going against amazingly powered beings (albeit, with some magic help as time went on) thats always been the whole point, but now they needed help the whole time? Ugggg screw you show, thats just so stupid I cant even possibly begin to describe all the ways it sucks. Like, I get the meta point being made (that heroes never seem have to deal with normal people stuff that gets in the way of the plot) and you can see how proud Dabb is of his oh so clever meta commentary, but by doing all of this at the end and without the right amount of set up and time for follow through, it just raises more questions and seems to be invalidating everything that came before. If literally everything was just Chuck influencing everything...what has even been the point? And how does this even make sense? Why are they clumsy and bad at basic stuff like lockpicking now? Do they just have no skills now, even if they have been doing stuff like this for years? Normal people can pick locks, throw punches, and walk through a freaking door! Without Chuck, are the guys just utterly incompetent morons? Is that what Dabb thinks people are? That his main heroes are? After everything? Seriously? 

This show has gone so far off the meta deep end, that they have not only lost the narrative, that there seemingly trying to destroy the show that already happened! The idea here isnt bad per say...just it would work in a movie or something where we haven't seen much of the main heroes before we start deconstructing narrative choices and cliches, not in a well established series that has been on for years now. Its like the script for a movie like Isn't It Romantic or The Last Action Hero, which are fully genre deconstructions, somehow got stuck inside of a long running TV show that decides to deconstruct its whole existence, but without any real plan beyond "this sounds cool" which makes the whole story, which was basically a straight forward story in the genre (with some meta commentary and jokes here and there for yucks) now confusing and raises more questions than it will ever answer. If the show wants to go meta, it cant go so meta that the show just stops being a show at all and the fans just feel dumb for being invested. Its like putting on a puppet show but spending the whole time telling people to look at the strings, its just nonsense and takes us out of the story! 

Also, Ugggg to the "So this one is named..." bit. We get it show, Dean is everyone's least favorite for no reason, just shut up. 

It was at least nice to see Garth and his family again, and that they managed to make it through the episode without dying (I thought they were goners when they showed up in the previouslys) and there were some decently funny scenes in there (plus random tap dancing?) and I always like when they show monsters or people with powers who arent really evil or anything, it makes for a more interesting universe than "kill all monsters they is evvvvilll" every single time. It was nice at least to get something that was trying to be light hearted after so much angst and drama, so I guess I can take that. 

I still hate that they made Chuck God, and the most dickish God in the history of dick Gods, its a bad choice that has now dragged the whole show down with it.

Edited January 27, 2020 by tennisgurl

[Castiels Cat]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

I just realized that I completely missed something in my appreciation of Dean's glee.  I do so love it when he loves stuff.  Sam said they had to take extra bullets, dead man's blood, etc etc.  Like he was implying that they usually walk into places unprepared.  What's normally in their duffels?  I mean, sure, sometimes they don't have what they need because they think it's Monster A and it turns out to be Monster B.  But, when on earth would they ever go into a warehouse that they thought would be full of multiple monsters and not have everything they would need.  Even back in season 1, Shadow, Sam said he ransacked the trunk because he didn't know what they would need and they might need everything.  Are we supposed to believe that as the stakes have gotten higher and higher that they have grown more complacent?  

This episode was just such crap.  Again, I could have forgiven the entire thing if it had been a dream, or a story that Chuck was writing.

What happened to Dean always having a plan B? Dabb appears to be completely unaware of show canon which is a necessity when writing successful a meta narrative such as this episode wanted to be and successfully ending a 15 season run. Yeesh.

[Affogato]

On 1/24/2020 at 4:22 PM, Diane said:

Well I am certainly glad that I watch the episodes before ever coming on here.  It was a very enjoyable episode and Dean dancing was amazing.  Loved that we got to see Garth and Bess 1 more time. 

I liked it, too. Also believe that in real life no one would survive what the Winchesters have survived. So luck has to factor in. i don’t think it rewrites the whole series or puts them in a negative light.  With luck they will. E able to get back to normally lucky, although the show nears its end and I worry about the cost. 
 

lots of good bits.  The hydrant he always parks in front of....

[Macbeth]

On 1/24/2020 at 2:06 AM, SueB said:

Bolded for highlights.

First, their luck was AGGRESSIVELY bad.  They were not 'normal', they really were cursed.  Chuck may have not been directly pulling all the strings, but things like picking a lock is a skill.  They could do it in their sleep.  The rest of the season is NOT a comedy so they'll be a fix.  And I don't think there's any magic that'll gives them skills.  I think if they get Supernatural help, it'll be to prevent being messed with.

Second, I did like that there was no question in either of their minds -- this is a challenge to overcome. They could live with 'normal' if that's all it was.  But with Chuck as their enemy, they don't have time to just work on their skills.  They need to level up quickly.  But their attitude was spot on - hunting is what they do, they aren't just going to give up.  They didn't want to put Garth at risk. They didn't want to die as monster entertainment but they'd do it if that's what had to be done.  There's this great line in Harry Potter that I is essentially, 'it's one thing to be dragged into the arena, it's another to walk in yourself, knowing you are not likely to survive.  And the difference makes all the difference.' Our boys would still walk into the arena, even with zero hope.  Glad Garth rescued them before that happened.

Lastly (at the summary level), I think this episode will play better AFTER the show is over.  I get the anger. And I'm almost panicked with how little time is left to tell the story.  But once the story is over, I think this will be far more entertaining.  Despite my panic over time remaining, however, I did find myself enjoying several bits.  

Enjoyable moments:
- At LAST we have the explanation for their funding - as many speculated, Charlie set them up with a never-fail credit card.  Hopefully there are backup funds.
- J2 comic timing was spot-on throughout the episode. For Jared I particularly liked his facial reaction to "the giant is crying" and his "I think you may be lactose intolerant".  For Jensen it's hard to downselect but I'll go with the 'tap out' moment (actually clever of him IMO) and the quiet freakout before sitting in the dentist chair.
- Everything Garth.  Very satisfying to see him doing so well.  He's overcome his PTSD about the tooth fairy ('she had it coming'). And he's still got that goodness in him. 
- I got a kick out of Bess being so sassy with her brother.  She's got a little bite to her (*rimshot*).
- The commercial for the cage fight was great.

and then we come to the "Pink Elephants On Parade" moment (i.e. when Dean is hallucinating on dental drugs).  At first I just screamed.  I don't know if it was laughter or shock but I was just sitting there, mouth gaping as the scene unfolded. Then I watched in awe as Jensen just threw himself into the bit. And of COURSE he's an excellent dancer.  This is the guy who learned how to do a reverse 180 in the Impala over a lunch break.  He brings new meaning to the phrase 'quick study'.  But in spite of the intended humor, I didn't find it actually funny.  I know I'm probably reading too much into it, but it seems to me that a reasonable interpretation is that Dean is feeling like he's the 'dancing monkey' in the Chuck show.   I think his subconscious is ruminating on the existential crisis and it's not a pretty picture.

I'm definitely watching again.  I think there are moments to savor.  And I am curious to see how I feel about the episode after the next few episodes air and after the series is over. Personally I have no doubt that Sam and Dean are Big Damn Heroes and that while Chuck may be trying to convince them they have no free will or skills, that's gonna fail. 

I agree with you completely.

Chuck is just mind fucking them to think there is no free will.

I mean - I am not surprised that Chuch was handicapping them throughout the entire show.  Given that they are trying to take him down - this episode was a given.  Of course it is in Dabb's hands so....

Also I really enjoyed seeing Garth again. He's a good, fun character and the actor is really good.

[7kstar]

I get both sides.  If you don't think about the ep, just watch it on face value...you might enjoy it.

But I didn't feel it landed the humor as well as past writers have done.  Yellow Fever had it's problems too.  But other than the dance scene...there isn't much for me to want to watch again.  It wasn't that funny.  The meta is harming the pacing and the idea that the show was trying how these boys had such back luck now...Didn't work. 

But I think it is always better for you to watch before you see other's viewpoints.  I've had plenty of times where I didn't agree with many that were upset.  I liked Jo for instance.  Never saw her more than little sister who had a crush.  But this season hasn't felt like I need to see any ep again.  Maybe a moment but on the whole it was easy to erase and THAT really makes me sad. 

I have zero desire to own 14 & 15.  But those that love it will.

[catrox14]

6 hours ago, sarthaz said:

LOL. I immediately decided it was because Dean can't be duplicated, and his name should simply be retired. Every year on his birthday, all of humanity calls themselves "Dean" in his honor, and then the name goes back in the vault until next year.

Headcanon...accepted.

[catrox14]

Interesting comments/thoughts from the dance choreographer.

I can buy his headcanon about why Dean was dancing in his drug induced state. 

 

[BoxManLocke]

19 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

The writers are patting themselves on the back for this oh-so-clever uber-meta storyline about God being a writer and writing this particular story.

And there is a big problem with constant fourth-wall-breaking, a story is more effective the more immersive it is and makes viewers forget, to a point, that they view a story. If you do the opposite and remind them every five seconds, it`s just a lame story, they cannot begin to get into it.

 

I agree. Dabb may be keeping his cards close to his chest, so far his only plan has been more of the exact same commentary since the premiere. It was already too much by episode five. SPN is now meta for the sake of being meta and it's just sad. It's the exact opposite of what made the show so special in the early days. The writers knew not to overdo it, and meta was a tool to create some quality writing, it wasn't about the showrunner showing off his gigantic ego.

 

Also, can anybody tell me why Sam and Dean wasted their time and risked their lives trying to destroy a fight club that only involved monster who were there on their own free will ? Looks to me like this thing was just doing their work for them.

Like, one werewolf guy (who appeared to be scum) gets dumped in a swamp after getting badly wounded (sounds to me like standard practice for an underground fight club), and the measured Winchester response (with Garth family blessing) is just to go in there and slaughter everybody on sight with a grenade launcher ?

 

See, this is why I can't stand the show anymore. The second you try to analyze shit it all falls apart because it's so terribly written. Usually I can deal because we don't get the cringeworthy comedy.

Edited January 26, 2020 by BoxManLocke

[ILoveReading]

11 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Interesting comments/thoughts from the dance choreographer.

I can buy his headcanon about why Dean was dancing in his drug induced state. 

 

I can buy this too.  Dance can also make a person feel free.  I know someone whose daughter is in dance and she says that is why she loves it.  Because she just feels the music and doesn't think about anything else. 

We see this during the routine.  Dean is hesitant at first.   He's not sure whats going one but he's drawn toward Garth and starts imitating him.  Then he's an equal partner and then he shines on his own.  At the end he seems really into it.  I think its symbolic of Dean's inner spirit and going his own way busting lose.

[Myrelle]

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I can buy this too.  Dance can also make a person feel free.  I know someone whose daughter is in dance and she says that is why she loves it.  Because she just feels the music and doesn't think about anything else. 

We see this during the routine.  Dean is hesitant at first.   He's not sure whats going one but he's drawn toward Garth and starts imitating him.  Then he's an equal partner and then he shines on his own.  At the end he seems really into it.  I think its symbolic of Dean's inner spirit and going his own way busting lose.

The music was a match for this,  too.

I have to say, I've watched the tap dance sequence on a loop since it aired. 

The Ending, especially, from when he ascends the stairs to the map table just sends me...😍 🥰

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

The music was a match for this,  too.

I have to say, I've watched the tap dance sequence on a loop since it aired. 

The Ending, especially, from when he ascends the stairs to the map table just sends me...😍 🥰

I can't stop watching that turn.  How did he not trip himself up

[Pondlass1]

I thought this episode really revealed the tiny budget they work with these days.  The puny number of overly zealous, over-acting  audience extras for the cage scenes was especially cringe worthy.   Last week Castiel talked about a fight with Leviathans and then what? Sat by a tree waiting for Dean to happen by despite the fact they were under a time constraint. WTF! 

It's actually embarrassing to watch now.  I can't even bring myself to watch live any more.

And if it's bad luck, then why did Dean have cavities and is lactose intolerant?  Bad luck is Baby not working or credit card denied! The Twitter Crowd all seem hunky dory with it but I'm not.   Dabb had better rectify things next week when they drive to  Alaska (of all places!).   These boys don't need capes or tights or gizmos.  They're human heroes. They're team free will not Chuck's puppets or whims. 😕

I wish Chuck was still prophet and writer.  The God SL is spoiling everything (for me)  and Rob doesn't possess the heavyweight gravitas or whatever to carry it off.  

But it was funny when Garth - I think it was Garth - mentioned something about Sam's furrowed brow not having its usual effect.  Jared does resort to that look quite a bit. LOL

The dance sequence was odd and out of place.  Dean would surely dream of a strip club or bar?  However it turned out to be the best bit of the whole episode -- especially as I'm still seething over it all being Chuck's stupid story --  and showed the world Jensen can pretty much do anything.  I think some Twitter folk are actually accusing him of auditioning for his next gig.  LOL

Like probably many of you here... I took tap as a child.  It's flipping hard.  We used to practice to the Stones' song Emotional Rescue.  It's a great beat for tap.  I was never any good.

 

 

 

 

 

[Castiels Cat]

9 hours ago, BoxManLocke said:

 

I agree. Dabb may be keeping his cards close to his chest, so far his only plan has been more of the exact same commentary since the premiere. It was already too much by episode five. SPN is now meta for the sake of being meta and it's just sad. It's the exact opposite of what made the show so special in the early days. The writers knew not to overdo it, and meta was a tool to create some quality writing, it wasn't about the showrunner showing off his gigantic ego.

 

Also, can anybody tell me why Sam and Dean wasted their time and risked their lives trying to destroy a fight club that only involved monster who were there on their own free will ? Looks to me like this thing was just doing their work for them.

Like, one werewolf guy (who appeared to be scum) gets dumped in a swamp after getting badly wounded (sounds to me like standard practice for an underground fight club), and the measured Winchester response (with Garth family blessing) is just to go in there and slaughter everybody on sight with a grenade launcher ?

 

See, this is why I can't stand the show anymore. The second you try to analyze shit it all falls apart because it's so terribly written. Usually I can deal because we don't get the cringeworthy comedy.

They were asked by a friend to investigate ...and yes saving monsters is a bit of a plot hole. Then again the entire episode is a plot hole because they were written deliberately OoC because Chuck was making a point and showing Dean that he is in Charge. 

Is there something more than what it seems overall...maybe. the rest is in Spoilers with Speculation.

 

Edited January 26, 2020 by Castiels Cat

[ILoveReading]

"Do you ever wonder how Superman pays his water bill or Batman doesn't get a flat?  It's because it slows down the story."

This is how bad the dialogue has gotten. 

I mean, did Dabb forget Superaman's alter ego Clark Kent has a job.  I'm guessing he pays his water bill with the salary he makes as a reporter.  Batman's car is specially designed.  I'm guessing fans don't need to be hit over a the head to guess that include the tires. 

It doesn't have to slow down the story.  Clever writing can incorporate these things and enhance it.  Sam and Dean's conversation in Baby when they didn't have money for a hotel room.  Or Sam and Dean fixing the car the car in Fresh Blood.  

This whole concept should have been shelved before it made it to a script outline.

[FlickChick]

34 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

This whole concept should have been shelved before it made it to a script outline.

I agree 1000%. But, who is going to shelve the idiot boss' script? The lunatics are running the asylum.

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

"Do you ever wonder how Superman pays his water bill or Batman doesn't get a flat?  It's because it slows down the story."

This is how bad the dialogue has gotten. 

I mean, did Dabb forget Superaman's alter ego Clark Kent has a job.  I'm guessing he pays his water bill with the salary he makes as a reporter.  Batman's car is specially designed.  I'm guessing fans don't need to be hit over a the head to guess that include the tires. 

It doesn't have to slow down the story.  Clever writing can incorporate these things and enhance it.  Sam and Dean's conversation in Baby when they didn't have money for a hotel room.  Or Sam and Dean fixing the car the car in Fresh Blood.  

This whole concept should have been shelved before it made it to a script outline.

I agree. I am not sure that this episode worked at all. It set a message to the Winchesters. One Hopes that Garth really interpreted it incorrectly even though Chuck certainly wants Dean to thinks they have been nothing but puppets because he needs dean to lose hope and play along.

He said he's back now that Sam lost hope. I don't think that's necessarily true. 

Nobody seems to think as they write. It's become an ongoing problem. It leads to glaring potholes, canonical errors, OoC behavior, mytharc being dropped... and too many episodes like this.

Now they go North to Alaska. That's a John Wayne movie. The Road to Alasks is a movie too but strangely not Hope and Crosby. Heaven help us nonetheless.

Edited January 26, 2020 by Castiels Cat

[Morrigan2575]

Jensen tap dancing was everything I never knew I needed.  Not talking talent level but, Jensen has got some serious Gene Kelly Swagger going on 

[Katy M]

OK, I've already gone on record stating that I hate this episode, and I stand by that.

However, I will point out that the point of it wasn't to say that Sam and Dean had it easy, or never had problems.  It's that they only had problems that were plot-relevant.  Cavities and dead spark plug, not plot relevant.  Car getting totaled by demon-driven semi, and Dean having to care for sam, plot relevant.

Still hate the epi, just trying to be fair to the concept.  It also doesn't explain why they can no longer pick locks as that's not a convenience, it's a learned skill

[Castiels Cat]

24 minutes ago, Katy M said:

OK, I've already gone on record stating that I hate this episode, and I stand by that.

However, I will point out that the point of it wasn't to say that Sam and Dean had it easy, or never had problems.  It's that they only had problems that were plot-relevant.  Cavities and dead spark plug, not plot relevant.  Car getting totaled by demon-driven semi, and Dean having to care for sam, plot relevant.

Still hate the epi, just trying to be fair to the concept.  It also doesn't explain why they can no longer pick locks as that's not a convenience, it's a learned skill

Fair point.

[Harleycat]

I actually really appreciated the fact that Sam didn't have tissues. It added a bit of realism to an otherwise odd and very unrealistic episode. If someone is basically healthy most of the time they don't typically keep tissues in the house, and a lot of people don't use them at all, they use toilet paper. 

By why is he holding someone's baby if he has a cold? That is just rude. Same with Dean holding the babies after he threw up. He doesn't know for sure that he threw up because of a reaction to the cheese. You don't hold a baby if you might have the flu. 

[ILoveReading]

27 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Cavities and dead spark plug, not plot relevant. 

But they have had car trouble in the past.  Fresh Blood had Dean teaching Sam to fix the car.  Dean might have been protected from lactose intolerance but he still got ice cream headaches.  That wasn't exactly plot relevant.  

Dean had 17 cavities.  His mouth should have been sore and swollen for days.  Plus the fillings seemed invisible. 

These so call plot relevant/not relevant still doesn't really make a lost of sense. 

 

7 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

it's a learned skill

I have no idea what point Dabb was trying to make because dead spark plugs and replacing them is also a learned skill.  So is fighting.  It makes no sense that Sam and Dean couldn't fight anymore or Dean can't fix the Impala.  We've seen Dean just as recently as s13 fix a bus.  We've seen him teach Sam.

10 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

the point

So Dabb....aka Chuck... just didn't take away plot relevant stuff.  He took away stuff to try and be funny but in doing so over stepped and has sent a message that Sam and Dean never had the relevant skills to do their jobs.    I don't even know what the point was.  I doubt he does either.

 

[Castiels Cat]

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

But they have had car trouble in the past.  Fresh Blood had Dean teaching Sam to fix the car.  Dean might have been protected from lactose intolerance but he still got ice cream headaches.  That wasn't exactly plot relevant.  

Dean had 17 cavities.  His mouth should have been sore and swollen for days.  Plus the fillings seemed invisible. 

These so call plot relevant/not relevant still doesn't really make a lost of sense. 

 

I have no idea what point Dabb was trying to make because dead spark plugs and replacing them is also a learned skill.  So is fighting.  It makes no sense that Sam and Dean couldn't fight anymore or Dean can't fix the Impala.  We've seen Dean just as recently as s13 fix a bus.  We've seen him teach Sam.

So Dabb....aka Chuck... just didn't take away plot relevant stuff.  He took away stuff to try and be funny but in doing so over stepped and has sent a message that Sam and Dean never had the relevant skills to do their jobs.    I don't even know what the point was.  I doubt he does either.

 

I think the point was to make Dean lose hope. He was trying to send the message that everything was because of Chuck. It's another bluff on Chuck's part in my opinion.  He just changed their power levels and skill sets with a few pen strokes however they are going to out maneuver him by whatever they find in Alaska.

Chuck says he's back but I am not so sure. Sam losing hope helped apparently. He needs Dean to as well. That was what this episode was all about in my opinion. 

Of course it just made fans lose hope.

IDK. They really needed to plan this out and know they canon and think with all of the meta madness.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Castiels Cat

[mertensia]

Cheese - that is older cheese, not fresh stuff like freshly made mozzarella -  is usually okay for lactose intolerant people. It was probably the butter on the bread.

[gonzosgirrl]

4 hours ago, mertensia said:

Cheese - that is older cheese, not fresh stuff like freshly made mozzarella -  is usually okay for lactose intolerant people. It was probably the butter on the bread.

It was more likely the fact he ate seven of them. I'm pretty sure Sam was supposed to be trying to be funny. 

[Bergamot]

9 hours ago, Katy M said:

However, I will point out that the point of it wasn't to say that Sam and Dean had it easy, or never had problems.  It's that they only had problems that were plot-relevant.  Cavities and dead spark plug, not plot relevant.  Car getting totaled by demon-driven semi, and Dean having to care for sam, plot relevant.

But we already knew this about Dean and Sam! That they only ever had problems that were plot-relevant is not some amazing or clever insight on Dabb's part.

Here's what Garth, speaking as the writer's mouthpiece, says about the episode:

Quote

For the first time in your lives, you're having normal-people problems......The point is, the hero thing -- it's not fun. Well, I mean, there are some good things about it. Like, when was the last time that Batman got a flat tire? Or Superman couldn't pay his water bill?

The thing is, having only plot-relevant problems does not make them "not normal" heroes, it makes them FICTIONAL. We only see the plot-relevant problems that Garth (or any other character) faces as well. We saw one of Garth's babies filling its diaper, because Dabb wanted to make a (stupid) joke about it, but we didn't watch the whole process of Garth changing the baby's diaper. Not because Garth is too heroic to have to change a diaper, but because it wasn't part of the story and Garth is not a real person -- he is a fictional character in a story. Just like we saw Sam making a mess by spilling things on the kitchen floor, but we didn't have to spend several minutes watching him clean up the floor, because that wasn't part of the story.

If Dean getting a cavity was part of the story before now, we would have seen him getting a cavity. As others here have already pointed out, we have seen Dean and Sam have "normal-people" problems before lots of times, when these problems were part of the story that the writer wanted to tell, whether for plot purposes or characterization purposes. And, contrary to what Dabb seems to think, no one would complain, "But Dean can't get a cavity! He is a HERO, and heroes don't get cavities!"

The flaw at the heart of Dabb's oh-so-clever idea, and the reason it totally failed to work for me, is that he tries to conflate "being a hero versus being a normal person" with "being a fictional character versus being a real person."  Dean and Sam being heroes does not mean that they would not know how to use a toilet, just because we have never seen them going to the bathroom. Believe it or not, writers, we know that sometimes Dean and Sam are going to have a flat tire, whether we see it or not, and that after they change the tire, we don't then watch them drive from one town to another in real time. Because we actually do understand that they are fictional characters. So what was the point here?

[Katy M]

9 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

But they have had car trouble in the past.  Fresh Blood had Dean teaching Sam to fix the car.  Dean might have been protected from lactose intolerance but he still got ice cream headaches.  That wasn't exactly plot relevant.  

Yeah, I probably should have mentioned that I know that they have had not plot-relevant  problems before.  the main reason I was posting was just to say that I was pretty sure that the episode wasn't about "bad luck."  But, yeah, it made no sense either way.

In fact, they probably should have had good non-plot relevant things happen.  Our lives are filled with millions of little inconsequential things--good and bad, all day long.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Katy M

[Katy M]

10 hours ago, Harleycat said:

You don't hold a baby if you might have the flu. 

Even if it's a monster baby?  Can monsters get sick?  wouldn't their super healing powers protect them?  

[Bergamot]

16 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Yeah, I probably should have mentioned that I know that they have had not plot-relevant  problems before.  the main reason I was posting was just to say that I was pretty sure that the episode wasn't about "bad luck."  But, yeah, it made no sense either way.

In fact, they probably should have had good non-plot relevant things happen.  Our lives are filled with millions of little inconsequential things--good and bad, all day long.

Very true!

I do understand that the whole concept of this season is that Dean and Sam have now discovered that they are characters in a story written by Chuck. But the writers have been so vague as to what this actually means, that the whole thing collapses for me if I start to think about it.

If Dean and Sam are characters written by Chuck, do they have any free will at all?  When one of them sacrificed themselves to save their brother, how could it mean anything?  Was it just because Chuck wrote the story that way? If they are defiant of Chuck, is it just because he is writing them that way?

Or what about, as Katy puts it so well, the "millions of little inconsequential things--good and bad" that our lives are filled with? This latest episode seems to be saying that unless Chuck included those things in the story, they did not happen. In which case, as I mentioned, the brothers should have been amazed in the episode at the idea that they needed to have a bowel movement, because they never have had one before!

Hate the whole idea of this season.  Because it is not about Dean and Sam as fictional characters who have now come to life, now that they realize they are fictional. It is the opposite. They are characters who had been real to me, that have now apparently been reduced to just poorly written stories created by Chuck on his typewriter. Thanks for nothing, show!

[PAForrest]

1 hour ago, Bergamot said:

The flaw at the heart of Dabb's oh-so-clever idea, and the reason it totally failed to work for me, is that he tries to conflate "being a hero versus being a normal person" with "being a fictional character versus being a real person."  Dean and Sam being heroes does not mean that they would not know how to use a toilet, just because we have never seen them going to the bathroom. Believe it or not, writers, we know that sometimes Dean and Sam are going to have a flat tire, whether we see it or not, and that after they change the tire, we don't then watch them drive from one town to another in real time. Because we actually do understand that they are fictional characters. So what was the point here?

Spot on about the overall failure of this script for people who already get who these guys are and the fact that, like any television show or movie script, we know we're watching fictional stories. We want to watch these fictional stories. So who is Dabb writing for - the Beckys out there who can't separate fact from fiction?

Personally I think the point is a lot more simplistic than that, because Dabb is simplistic and shallow. The bottom line is he just wanted to humiliate the brothers, and he wanted one of his OCs - that's right, Garth is a Dabb/Loflin creation - to be the hero, since the CW wouldn't give his OCs their own show. Waah.

On 1/26/2020 at 7:41 AM, BoxManLocke said:

Also, can anybody tell me why Sam and Dean wasted their time and risked their lives trying to destroy a fight club that only involved monster who were there on their own free will ? Looks to me like this thing was just doing their work for them.

Like, one werewolf guy (who appeared to be scum) gets dumped in a swamp after getting badly wounded (sounds to me like standard practice for an underground fight club), and the measured Winchester response (with Garth family blessing) is just to go in there and slaughter everybody on sight with a grenade launcher ?

Once you start trying to poke all those plot holes - and the show is one ginormous plot hole now - everything crumbles into dust.

Like how Garth didn't need to call the guys at all. All his stupid wife had to do was interrogate her grown ass brother as to what he was up to. Much like she did when the guys were standing there being pretty useless. Then once she and Garth find out he's participating in a monster fight club, case solved. If her grown ass brother wants to go back and willingly get himself killed doing something stupid, then let him thin the herd. The Winchesters didn't even need to leave their bunker.

As you said, the monsters weren't there trying to kill humans, thus hunters didn't need to get involved. They were contained fighting each other, doing their own thing. And Garth slaughtering them all just for being there was not heroic in the least. It was murderous. Garth really wasn't the good guy here - none of Dabb's OCs are good guys anymore, not when he gets off watching them murder innocent people all the time now.

I'm sorry, but the man has a disturbingly warped view of heroes and villains. Maybe his next project should be a happy peppy musical salute to Ted Bundy.

44 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Hate the whole idea of this season.  Because it is not about Dean and Sam as fictional characters who have now come to life, now that they realize they are fictional. It is the opposite. They are characters who had been real to me, that have now apparently been reduced to just poorly written stories created by Chuck on his typewriter.

Depressingly, I think that's Dabb's whole point. He's scorching the earth on his way out the door, and crapping on everything so many viewers loved about this show, and what kept this show on the air - and gave him a damn job - all these years.

Edited January 27, 2020 by PAForrest

[Mrs. Stanwyck]

On 1/26/2020 at 7:41 AM, BoxManLocke said:

Also, can anybody tell me why Sam and Dean wasted their time and risked their lives trying to destroy a fight club that only involved monster who were there on their own free will ? Looks to me like this thing was just doing their work for them.

It was a very quick line so it was easy to miss but Dean said something like "With that many monsters in one place, human bodies will be dropping".  They didn't go because monsters were killing monsters, they went because they thought humans would be getting killed too just because of the high concentration of monsters.

[Katy M]

On 1/26/2020 at 7:41 AM, BoxManLocke said:

Also, can anybody tell me why Sam and Dean wasted their time and risked their lives trying to destroy a fight club that only involved monster who were there on their own free will ? Looks to me like this thing was just doing their work for them.

What @Mrs. Stanwyck said, but they also apparently hunt ghouls which only feed on dead bodies, so there is that.

[gonzosgirrl]

33 minutes ago, Mrs. Stanwyck said:

It was a very quick line so it was easy to miss but Dean said something like "With that many monsters in one place, human bodies will be dropping".  They didn't go because monsters were killing monsters, they went because they thought humans would be getting killed too just because of the high concentration of monsters.

It doesn't really hold water though, since these fights have clearly been going on for a long time and hunters, namely the Winchesters, weren't even aware they existed. (So they obviously weren't killing humans)

There is really nothing about this episode that holds up to scrutiny. And if it's proven out to be Chuck messing with them, then it sucks even worse because it only proves, yet again, that there is nothing we can trust in w/regards to canon or what we're being shown. There is nothing to believe in, so I don't believe in anything. Like death, they have taken away all the stakes.

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

What @Mrs. Stanwyck said, but they also apparently hunt ghouls which only feed on dead bodies, so there is that.

Didn't ghouls kill Adam and his mother? Out of revenge, sure, but they are still willing to kill humans.

Edited January 27, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[Katy M]

28 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Didn't ghouls kill Adam and his mother? Out of revenge, sure, but they are still willing to kill humans.

Yes, but that was because John hunted the ghoul while he was only eating corpses.  Plus, Maggie was hunting what she thought was a ghoul in Nightmare Logic because corpses were being desecrated.  And when GadZeke put Sam into an imaginary case it was about ghouls.

[ahrtee]

8 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Yes, but that was because John hunted the ghoul while he was only eating corpses.  Plus, Maggie was hunting what she thought was a ghoul in Nightmare Logic because corpses were being desecrated.  And when GadZeke put Sam into an imaginary case it was about ghouls.

That's kind of funny when you consider how many times the boys were arrested (or it was mentioned as one of their major crimes) for desecrating graves--ie, "torching corpses."  ☺️

[FierceCritter]

On 1/23/2020 at 10:04 PM, Commando Cody said:

I'm pretty sure it was 'Seinfeld' music when they got to the fighting arena.  

That's EXACTLY what I instantly thought. And I've only seen a handful of Seinfeld episodes.

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, FierceCritter said:

That's EXACTLY what I instantly thought. And I've only seen a handful of Seinfeld episodes.

The theme from a show about nothing, would be appropos to the the show Dabb is trying to turn into nothing.

[Affogato]

23 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

 

And if it's bad luck, then why did Dean have cavities and is lactose intolerant?  

Like probably many of you here... I took tap as a child.  It's flipping hard.  We used to practice to the Stones' song Emotional Rescue.  It's a great beat for tap.  I was never any good.

Well having bad oral hygiene and good teeth is good luck. And lactose intolerant isn’t necessarily a diagnosis. Gulping down 7 grilled cheese sandwiches quickly can make you sick.  Might say your are lucky If they don’t hit you that way.

it is the last season and they are trying to be meta, which can get old, but there you are .

the dance was good, especially Garth, I thought he might have had some tap in his background, but I assume most actors get some dance training, maybe not tap.  

5 hours ago, Mrs. Stanwyck said:

It was a very quick line so it was easy to miss but Dean said something like "With that many monsters in one place, human bodies will be dropping".  They didn't go because monsters were killing monsters, they went because they thought humans would be getting killed too just because of the high concentration of monsters.

And because they had something to prove to themselves. 

[ILoveReading]

12 hours ago, Bergamot said:

The thing is, having only plot-relevant problems does not make them "not normal" heroes, it makes them FICTIONAL. We only see the plot-relevant problems that Garth (or any other character) faces as well. We saw one of Garth's babies filling its diaper, because Dabb wanted to make a (stupid) joke about it, but we didn't watch the whole process of Garth changing the baby's diaper. Not because Garth is too heroic to have to change a diaper, but because it wasn't part of the story and Garth is not a real person -- he is a fictional character in a story. Just like we saw Sam making a mess by spilling things on the kitchen floor, but we didn't have to spend several minutes watching him clean up the floor, because that wasn't part of the story.

I really don't know what message Dabb was trying to send.  But IMO, the line about Superman's water bill seems to highlight his thinking about heroes vs regular people.

No, nobody worries about Superman's water bill because 1.  Literally no one cares, and 2.  Clark Kent has a job. 

Its like Dabb isn't capable of seeing Superman and Clark Kent as the same person.

Its like its the same with Sam and Dean.  He's trying to say that they are now experiencing "plot irrelevant"  things, but yet there are still plot irrelevant stuff, like Dean not being swollen for days and not seeing Garth have to feed the twins or but them to bed 

As much as I love Dean dancing, and have my head canon about what it meant, it did seem out of place. 

The whole thing was just a confusing mess.

Edited January 28, 2020 by ILoveReading

[BoxManLocke]

10 hours ago, Mrs. Stanwyck said:

It was a very quick line so it was easy to miss but Dean said something like "With that many monsters in one place, human bodies will be dropping".  They didn't go because monsters were killing monsters, they went because they thought humans would be getting killed too just because of the high concentration of monsters.

 

Preemptive hunting isn't in their job description though, and it's a slippery slope that they were supposed to have grown out of ages ago.
Besides like @PAForrest said they blew up dozens of people without having any idea who was in there ; humans, or harmless monsters that just enjoyed watching.

 

That part where Dean got kicked in the dick sure made up for it though !

Once Dabb's finished with this show there isn't even going to be a carcass to pick up.

[Ray Adverb]

On 1/24/2020 at 10:30 PM, trudysmom said:

Anyone else notice the name of the store where Dean's card was rejected was "Beren's" something or other.   I don't usually catch stuff like that.

I don't usually catch stuff like that either, but I think it was practically the same shot that the credit for the guy named "Beren" popped up on the screen.  It was tough to miss.

[Ray Adverb]

On 1/24/2020 at 9:52 PM, Castiels Cat said:

Barrow was the setting of the film Thirty Days of Night 

I know.  Because it's way the Hell up there in the Arctic Circle, so they get 24 hour days during the summer and 24 hour nights in the winter.  You could certainly go there if you had a plane, boat, or magical teleportation.  But any place between Barrow and some other human inhabited place would be in the wet and hostile Alaskan tundra.

[ahrtee]

18 minutes ago, Ray Adverb said:

I don't usually catch stuff like that either, but I think it was practically the same shot that the credit for the guy named "Beren" popped up on the screen.  It was tough to miss.

Supernatural Wiki has a different explanation:

Dean goes shopping at "Berens' Kwik Trip," which is a reference to Charlie Berens and the comedy video series Manitowoc Minute. Production Designer Jerry Wanek is a fan of the show, and is also from Manitowoc, Wisconsin

😑

[Bali]

On 1/25/2020 at 12:50 PM, Castiels Cat said:

Chuck wrote this episode. Stupid plot twists and on point lessons for the Winchesters are established clues to a s 15 written by Chuck very special episode.  He is just banging them out. Chuck is a hack.

It was in the episode. God hates us. Of course they have skills. They don't in this episode because God hates them. And yes... Garth is usually hapless and needs saving except he saves the day here.

For me the problem with the non-stop meta and Chuck's hard-on for Dean is that as a viewer one has to be asking oneself what is Dabb thinking. Dabb is making the last season a meta commentary on the creator hating his creations for misbehaving and in particular he is mad at Dean for not staying within his boundaries. It all seems very P.A. which is epitomized by Garth not naming a baby after Dean?!  

OK- But if UpChuck wrote this episode, then how will he not know that they are on their way to Barrow? If UpChuck wrote all of the dialogue, how can anything happen? Or did he write it in an improve way, where he set up the situation, then let them write the dialogue?

This is why I just can't wrap my head around what Drabb is doing with the show.

And his endless waterpistols are ruining me too.

On 1/26/2020 at 3:36 PM, Pondlass1 said:

The dance sequence was odd and out of place.  Dean would surely dream of a strip club or bar?  

OK- THAT'S THE SCENE I WOULD PAY FOR. Dean dancing around a pole.

On 1/27/2020 at 7:06 AM, Bergamot said:

But we already knew this about Dean and Sam! That they only ever had problems that were plot-relevant is not some amazing or clever insight on Dabb's part.

Here's what Garth, speaking as the writer's mouthpiece, says about the episode:

The thing is, having only plot-relevant problems does not make them "not normal" heroes, it makes them FICTIONAL. We only see the plot-relevant problems that Garth (or any other character) faces as well. We saw one of Garth's babies filling its diaper, because Dabb wanted to make a (stupid) joke about it, but we didn't watch the whole process of Garth changing the baby's diaper. Not because Garth is too heroic to have to change a diaper, but because it wasn't part of the story and Garth is not a real person -- he is a fictional character in a story. Just like we saw Sam making a mess by spilling things on the kitchen floor, but we didn't have to spend several minutes watching him clean up the floor, because that wasn't part of the story.

 

And because it is FICTIONAL- we don't see the ordinary mundane things because that stuff makes a BORING SHOW! I mean, yeah I say, I would watch So and So read a phone book. But in reality, I would be doing something else while listening to that, because BORING. You have 22 hours minus commercials to tell a season. You don't bother with, "And then Sam cooks and Dean eats. Or Dean spends a half hour of the 45 minutes waiting in a dentist's office because the dentist is behind. So, for a half hour, we watch Dean read a magazine. Meanwhile, Sam blows his nose, coughs, sneezes and sleeps for the whole 45 minutes because he has the flu. Two times, we hear him groan about being miserable.