S01.E09: See How They Fly

[rmontro]

1 hour ago, Cthulhudrew said:

I can't see any other reason for Jon saying that it was important that she see him walking on water (in the last episode).

Yeah, it all points in that direction.  There's too many planted ideas for it just to be a cruel practical joke Jon was playing.  

I think there's an out here to bring back Dr. Manhattan if they want to.  It's hard to believe all that energy dissipated when Lady Trieu's machine was destroyed, since she never absorbed it.  He's always been able to pull himself back together in the past.  But why would they want to bring him back, since they've essentially made Angela Dr. Manhattan.

This was an enjoyable episode as it paid off all the plots and brought them all together.  It was a slow build, I can't say I even enjoyed the first few episodes.  And although it functions as a sequel to the Watchmen, I'm not sure it stayed true to the original story (see Dev F's post above).  Dr. Manhattan was always losing his humanity, and humans were becoming less interesting to him.  This story doesn't fit that line of thinking, and would he want Angela to share that fate?

In the end Dr. Manhattan seemed surprisingly ineffectual, for all his power.  Was he expecting Angela to accomplish things for him, once she inherited his power?  Seems like a stretch.

I was almost rooting for Veidt at the end, although "Mirror Guy's" line that he talked too much was funny.  Will they be able to find a prison to hold the world's smartest man?  

[formerlyfreedom]

8 minutes ago, rmontro said:

I was almost rooting for Veidt at the end, although "Mirror Guy's" line that he talked too much was funny.  Will they be able to find a prison to hold the world's smartest man?  

Looking Glass' line was the one that had me rolling on the floor. I was so glad he reappeared and had a significant role in the finale!

As far as your question - now that he no longer has 'Daughter' to break him out ---maybe?

[rmontro]

10 minutes ago, saoirse said:

As far as your question - now that he no longer has 'Daughter' to break him out ---maybe?

Could always send him back to Europa, I guess.  I don't know why he didn't just put all the clones to work at building him a ship to return to earth.  Surely he'd be smart enough to design one.

By the way, I forgot to mention before, I liked the cover version of the Beatles classic I Am the Walrus that they played at the end.  Had to Google it, the band was Spooky Tooth, the song was from 1970.  I think I've heard it before.

[arc]

20 hours ago, kay1864 said:

Hmm, nice thought, but I’m not sure that Jon experienced his entire life that way, I.e. that it’s retroactive. I got the impression it’s only the moments since he became Dr. M.

I’ll have to check the graphic novel to see if it included when his father rejected watchmaking, or when the fat man stepped on Janey’s  watch.

The Dr Manhattan origin story issue seems to suggest that post-resurrection he experienced all of his life simultaneously.

[Catfi9ht]

11 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

I can't see any other reason for Jon saying that it was important that she see him walking on water (in the last episode).

15 hours ago, Charlesman said:

I think she got the powers. 

This was her origin story.

I agree with all points. Also this promo poster does show a blue light cast on her face. The conspiracy theorist in me thinks this was intentional. 🙂

I don't have much to add other than what has already been said. 

This entire season I was extremely skeptical of the Ozy story line coming together with the main story line in a way that was fulfilling and also kept with established character traits. I thought the payoff was fantastic and I thought this entire series was very satisfying both from a storytelling perspective and as a successor to The Watchmen graphic novel.

I look forward to the Internet finding all kinds of crazy Easter eggs that hadn't been found prior to the final episode. 🙂 

ETA: I wanted to give lots of credit to Louis Gossett Jr. in this episode. Even though his dialogue was short, every line he uttered was impactful and delivered with depth, pain, and wisdom.

Edited December 17, 2019 by Catfi9ht
props to Louis Gossett Jr.

[terrymct]

23 hours ago, Enigma X said:

I liked the episode and the season, but I just don't get Manhattan (and maybe this is my bias against time travel). I will just say that I agree with Will; it seems as if Manhattan could have done more. I am not necessarily even talking about the greater good for humanity (but do believe he could have done more there too), but he is so wrapped up in the tired time travel trope of what happened happened. I am frustrated just typing it out.

I suspect that we're supposed to understand that he was emotionally hamstrung by what happened in Vietnam.  He tried to help there, use his god like powers to end a conflict but it turns out that it's not as simple as that.  Once he saw that, he was unable to act for the most part.

[ShellsandCheese]

Dr. Manhattan was just over it. That’s why he allowed himself to be destroyed. Also, I disagree that he should have done more. Gods do not involve themselves in the silly affairs of humans. It’s like asking why does God allow war, famine, genocide to happen. It’s like another poster said - people get bored in paradise. Humans even though they are loathe to admit thrive on conflict. Everyone likes to have something to bitch and complain about - just look at the US. With the exception of those living in severe poverty - and people who have low wage jobs in very very expensive cities the average American lives a life of great abundance but people are miserable. Miserable. 
 

if given the choice between paradise and strife. People usually pick strife. They just can’t help themselves. 

Edited December 17, 2019 by ShellsandCheese

[tennisgurl]

I am fully team Angela Has Powers, I feel like the show has been leading us in that direction for awhile now. This whole season has been her origin story. I thought that was a great finale, and a wonderful cap to what turned out to be an often mystifying but also very fascinating and entertaining show. I dont know what our chances are of a season two, or what it would be about (following up with Angela? A new story in the same universe?) but I would be there faster than Laurie is there for a snarky one liner. 

Lady Treiu might have turned out to be a villain, but she was also an amazing and complex character, and her offhand destroying of the 7K was absolutely delicious. Seeing their smug shitty faces realizing that they were meddling with forces they couldn't possibly comprehend, let alone hope to control, and that while they thought they were the chess, they were actually playing tiddlywinks. Enjoy your stupid speedo and your puddle of people goo asshole. 

Poor Warden, Adrien couldn't have just have told him that he was a worthy opponent before he died and left all of the clones behind? Of course, his massive ego couldn't have said that, even if he clearly didnt mean it, narcissistic that he is. Takes one to know one indeed. I did love that Wade got to meet the guy who created the incident that so deeply messed him up, and even got to knock him out and send him to jail! I am sure that he will end up getting out, but it was fun seeing him actually thrown for a loop for a second. 

Lots of great bits throughout the episode, like Wade showing up disguised as one of the 7K guys, the call backs to Reeves backstory, the Tulsa police not longer having their masks on at the end, the back and fourth between Laurie and Adrien (which made me wish we had seen more of it!) the return of Archie, but my favorite scene was between Jon and Angela as he is about to die. Him wanting to have her there while he died was a very human moment from a character that had so often struggled with holding onto his connection with humanity, it really was very affecting. 

Really, one of the biggest tragedies here is that Lady Treiu could have used her great intelligence to really help the world, but instead she was obsessed with using all of her amazing brains and resources to come up with this elaborate plan to become a god, and one up her dad on the whole Master Plan thing. 

[rmontro]

2 hours ago, Catfi9ht said:

I agree with all points. Also this promo poster does show a blue light cast on her face. The conspiracy theorist in me thinks this was intentional. 🙂

Nice catch.

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 12/16/2019 at 4:48 AM, arc said:

Also, I assumed Dan Dreiberg and Laurie took Archie back to America in 1985. How did they get back otherwise?

I can't remember if we talked about it in the pilot, but Angela's access code to enter her bakery's superhero lair is "1985" and that's a cute shout-out to the comic and 11/2 but why would she care about 1985? She was in Vietnam when it happened.

When we last saw Archie, Dan had to crash-land him. Archie was inoperable due to having been underwater for hours and then enduring sub-zero temperatures. Dan commented that he could fix Archie on their return.

But it might have been more complicated than he anticipated, or it might have been easier to go home another way.

Presumably Veidt himself has a plane or other form of transport. Also, they could have gotten back via the Manhattan Transfer before Jon left.As for the 1985 access code, even not experiencing it first-hand, it was a world-changing event. I imagine there are people who have 9112001 or similar as an access code even though they were not directly affected by that day's events.

15 hours ago, Ottis said:

Well, everyone in the show is annoyed at Dr Manhattan for the same reason I was... given all you could do, why win the VW and that’s all?

Winning the Vietnam War wasn't all that Dr. M did. He advanced technology so that essentially you can credit him for all the advances that exist in that world: cloning, fission space engines, airships, etc.

As to why he didn't do more, it goes to the paradox that he knows what is going to happen and so he does exactly what he believes he is meant to, no more and no less. My brother expressed frustration with last episode because there is no way that Dr. M should have gotten captured, given his abilities. He could have blown up all the 7K members at once, teleported himself and Angela anywhere he wanted to, destroyed the teleporter cannon first, etc, But he didn't.

[LoveLeigh]

On 12/16/2019 at 2:20 PM, GustavMahler said:

I did not care enough to care about how it ended, in fact, I was calling out the Sopranos end tag the moment we saw her feet...so with a shrug, I move on.. .

I think this episode was awful. I know I am in the minority. It just veered off into the really preposterous while up until this episode most of the suspension of disbelief was more magical and the episodes were beautifully done. It just was too silly and amateurish I thought. Did the last episode have a different writer and director? Maybe it was that up until the final two episodes the series was excellent and after that it deteriorated when Jeremy Irons cut a fart. 

[Lunula]

On 12/16/2019 at 1:52 AM, jeansheridan said:

So other than this show I am a total newcomer to The Watchmen. Never read it, never saw the movie. I was fascinated by its weirdness. And how the actors captured that weirdness. Lady Trieu is such a vivid creation. Her beats were always just a bit off. And Jean Smart was so wonderfully world weary. And Regina King makes a credible action hero. 

I feel like this show knew exactly what it wanted to say and how to say it and they were blessed with a perfect cast. Even the kid actors were solid. 

I'm with you, I had no background with The Watchmen canon and added it to the DVR after one trailer because it looked fascinating. I enjoyed the mysteries that were weird enough to make me think & ponder, but not so obtuse that I got frustrated & bored (à la Westworld). 

I agree with you @jeansheridan except on one point, I thought the casting for Keene (James Wolk) was terrible and each time he spoke with that crappy, fake southern accent I cringed. 

I've lived in North Carolina since I was a kid (~35 years) and I wish, wish, WISH Hollywood would get better accent coaches for American southerners. I can fake a pretty darn authentic accent for the Piedmont area, but it really is a skill and contrary to (apparently) popular belief, most people can't fake it and pass as a native. A bad fake accent of any kind can quickly ruin any movie or TV show for me. Luckily Keene was more of a cartoon character anyway. 

BTW - it was unnecessary for this role to make Keene a southerner. (In case you didn't know, racist assholes are everywhere). If the producers absolutely wanted it, they should've cast someone else or sent Wolk to accent class. 

(P.S. Not every southern accent is exactly the same)

Edited December 19, 2019 by Lunula
Formatting

[Catfi9ht]

1 hour ago, Lunula said:

I agree with you @jeansheridan except on one point, I thought the casting for Keene (James Wolk) was terrible and each time he spoke with that crappy, fake southern accent I cringed. 

I've lived in North Carolina since I was a kid (~35 years) and I wish, wish, WISH Hollywood would get better accent coaches for American southerners. I can fake a pretty darn authentic accent for the Piedmont area, but it really is a skill and contrary to (apparently) popular belief, most people can't fake it and pass as a native. A bad fake accent of any kind can quickly ruin any movie or TV show for me. Luckily Keene was more of a cartoon character anyway. 

BTW - it was unnecessary for this role to make Keene a southerner. (In case you didn't know, racist assholes are everywhere). If the producers absolutely wanted it, they should've cast someone else or sent Wolk to accent class. 

I completely agree most southern accents on tv and movies are pretty atrocious. In contrast, I thought Tim Blake Nelson's accent was fantastic, but he's from Tulsa so it would make sense he could do an accurate accent. 

However, I disagree that Keene didn't have to be a southerner. In order for the story to come full circle, Keene needed to be from Oklahoma. However, he didn't necessarily have to have an accent.

[DearEvette]

On 12/17/2019 at 11:16 AM, tennisgurl said:

Really, one of the biggest tragedies here is that Lady Treiu could have used her great intelligence to really help the world, but instead she was obsessed with using all of her amazing brains and resources to come up with this elaborate plan to become a god, and one up her dad on the whole Master Plan thing. 

 

My husband and I have been obsessively discussing this show and he is a huge comic book fan from childhood.  His collection is insane, but I digress...

Anyway, we were talking about this very thing and he said upon reflection it makes sense that Lady Trieu is the big villain in the end.  In the grand tradition of comic books, Lady Trieu is a textbook comic book supervillian.  They are usually super rich, egomanical, in some sort of scientific field, genius level intelligence, invents all sorts of crazy things to get to/a/kill the superhero, have obsessive personalities and will often feel as if they are the heroes in their own story.  Also, if done right, they are also charismatic and enjoyable until they aren't.

[tennisgurl]

28 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

They are usually super rich, egomanical, in some sort of scientific field, genius level intelligence, invents all sorts of crazy things to get to/a/kill the superhero, have obsessive personalities and will often feel as if they are the heroes in their own story. 

So Lady Trieu is basically Lex Luther, with all the wealth and power and brains to save the world, but is so narcissistic that, instead of doing that, he devotes all of his time to taking down Superman, just because he hates the idea that there is someone in the world better at something than him, and does all of that while proclaiming himself as the real hero.  

[Dev F]

2 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Anyway, we were talking about this very thing and he said upon reflection it makes sense that Lady Trieu is the big villain in the end.  In the grand tradition of comic books, Lady Trieu is a textbook comic book supervillian.  They are usually super rich, egomanical, in some sort of scientific field, genius level intelligence, invents all sorts of crazy things to get to/a/kill the superhero, have obsessive personalities and will often feel as if they are the heroes in their own story.

To me that's an argument for why she shouldn't be the big villain in a story that's centered around deconstructing superhero myths. Or, rather, it's why, if the writers wanted to make her their antagonist, they shouldn't have portrayed her as such a supervillain. "Noble superheroes defeat power-hungry trillionaire genius" reinforces the lazy comic book tropes instead of deconstructing them.

That was also my main problem with Zack Snyder's film adaptation of the original Watchmen. He nailed pretty much every character except Ozymandias, whom he changed from an uncompromising, clean-cut, all-American hero into a shifty, effete, vaguely Eurotrashy obvious villain -- thus undermining the entire point of the story, which is that Veidt's genocidal horror was the ultimate expression of superhero values, not a perversion of them.

[MBayGal]

On 12/17/2019 at 1:50 PM, DakotaLavender said:

I think this episode was awful. I know I am in the minority. It just veered off into the really preposterous while up until this episode most of the suspension of disbelief was more magical and the episodes were beautifully done. It just was too silly and amateurish I thought. Did the last episode have a different writer and director? Maybe it was that up until the final two episodes the series was excellent and after that it deteriorated when Jeremy Irons cut a fart. 

You are not alone!  If there is another season, I will be busy clipping my toenails when it’s on.  

[Johnny Dollar]

Spin off idea: Follow the Tremendous Trio of Laurie, Mirror Guy and Adrian as they traverse the northern hemisphere in their beat up Owlship trying to get back to civilization and arrest the POTUS. Featuring special guest Robert Redford as President Robert Redford. 

[FemmyV]

I mostly loved the episode and how they managed to wrap up everything. Best ensemble acting and RK, JI, and JS were standouts.

Although all hints have pointed to Angela taking on Jon's powers, I have a hard time believing he passed his power on to her, if only because of all of the baggage that would go with it — the loneliness, in particular, and the curse of knowing how all roads end, ie., eternal boredom — why would anyone want to pass that onto someone they wished happiness upon? Jon was probably far happier as Cal than any other time in his Blue life, so it makes sense to me that, if he wasn't going to pass the power onto her, he could have been giving the 'walk on water' demonstration as way of setting her up to understand that she's not a god.

 

With all we know about Adrian as the story's official villain, funny that he wasn't after Jon's power, as well. I adored Jeremy Irons in this role; he made it impossible to root against Adrian even if I couldn't exactly root for him, so great.

 

 

[PentaHookUp]

On 12/15/2019 at 10:10 PM, DakotaLavender said:

I hate manipulative cliffhangers..... unless there is a small piece attached after the credits roll. I don't like speculation or guessing games. 

Ok no piece after the credits so this finale sucked. 

Makes for interesting Board discussions--provided there is another season, of course.

Otherwise, I agree.

[Affogato]

On 12/21/2019 at 12:47 PM, FemmyV said:

I mostly loved the episode and how they managed to wrap up everything. Best ensemble acting and RK, JI, and JS were standouts.

Although all hints have pointed to Angela taking on Jon's powers, I have a hard time believing he passed his power on to her, if only because of all of the baggage that would go with it — the loneliness, in particular, and the curse of knowing how all roads end, ie., eternal boredom — why would anyone want to pass that onto someone they wished happiness upon? Jon was probably far happier as Cal than any other time in his Blue life, so it makes sense to me that, if he wasn't going to pass the power onto her, he could have been giving the 'walk on water' demonstration as way of setting her up to understand that she's not a god.

 

With all we know about Adrian as the story's official villain, funny that he wasn't after Jon's power, as well. I adored Jeremy Irons in this role; he made it impossible to root against Adrian even if I couldn't exactly root for him, so great.

 

 

Ozmandias had no real power, except among the clones (it appears they permitted this) so he could be sympathetic. Much more time flipping his tentacles in Karnak .... homo inferior, eg us, still has some pride and limits, I hope. 
 

i wonder if Jon could pass on some parts of his power and not others. 

[jeansheridan]

On 12/19/2019 at 3:29 PM, Dev F said:

To me that's an argument for why she shouldn't be the big villain in a story that's centered around deconstructing superhero myths

Well she wasn't all evil. She killed the racists. But your analysis proves that if you give a stereotypical character to a good actor (and a POC on top of that) it can become interesting and fresh again. Plus she was just so damn charming! As was her daughter/mother.

Also I kind of appreciate that the finale really did settle down into a regular plot. Good versus evil (more or less). And the good guys won. It was a nice payoff for all the weirdness. Unlike say Westworld which just annoyed me to no end.

[jeansheridan]

On 12/16/2019 at 12:10 PM, DearEvette said:

It was.  And it was purposely ham fisted because according to Lindelof "It was knocked off course. It hit a meteor or something. So it was landing in a different spot than it was supposed to."

There is always and element of chance in any endeavor. I think all of Adrian's horrifying experiments on Europa kind of prove that. In retrospect I love his commitment to trial and error. 

I actually wish we had seen Angela as "Baker" more. Cooking has an element of trial and error and science too. Angela as baker is just as much of a scientist as Lady Trieu and Adrian.

I really love this show. It's a  perfect 8 hours. While I admire the simplicity of The Mandalorian, this show allows for repeated viewings. It deserves repeated viewings.

 

[ICantDoThatDave]

I just watched the movie again with the show in mind & I agree with whoever it was that said Lindelof had a story he wanted to tell & shoved it into the Watchmen universe.  The characters that exist in both are totally different people.  FWIW I read the comics like 30 years ago & despite the movie's other flaws thought its ending was better (Manhattan > squid).  So while I know the comic/graphic novel, I admit I'm more familiar with the movie.

I accept that people can potentially change into completely different people over 30 years, but that's the exception, not the rule.  If someone has become a different person entirely, we need to understand why.  My problem is that everyone has become a different person.

- Doctor Manhattan had abandoned Earth & humanity at the end of the movie & the comic.  His implication of creating life in no way supported the premise that he would just go create some new naive humans.  He thought humanity was flawed.  No way he would go Adam & Eve on his clean slate.  And then get bored with it after one try & return to Earth looking for a new girlfriend?  Ridiculous.

- Veidt ends the movie secure in his decision.  He & Manhattan are the only ones who, without condemning or condoning, understand.  TV Show Veidt is a totally different character.  And he never would have left his office unsecured such that a destined for death custodian (come on, you know she was) could steal his DNA & create a daughter via turkey baster.  Ridiculous.

- "Laurie" the character in the TV show is pretty awesome.  But seriously watch the movie & imagine any path that exists where Laurie evolves into "Laurie".  Any path.  They are totally different people.   And if you can remotely imagine a path in your head where that transition from wallflower to badass happens, then we need to see it.  At the end of the movie she has literally no path there, so this extraordinary metamorphosis needs to be shown to us the viewers or else it's... Ridiculous.

You can't just say "it happened but you didn't see it".  You can't handwave a 180 in character because "time passed".  Otherwise it's just a story you wanted to tell where you co-opt an existing universe & slap existing names onto totally different characters.  Which is what this show was.

 

[Affogato]

On 2/6/2020 at 8:24 PM, ICantDoThatDave said:

I just watched the movie again with the show in mind & I agree with whoever it was that said Lindelof had a story he wanted to tell & shoved it into the Watchmen universe.  The characters that exist in both are totally different people.  FWIW I read the comics like 30 years ago & despite the movie's other flaws thought its ending was better (Manhattan > squid).  So while I know the comic/graphic novel, I admit I'm more familiar with the movie.

I accept that people can potentially change into completely different people over 30 years, but that's the exception, not the rule.  If someone has become a different person entirely, we need to understand why.  My problem is that everyone has become a different person.

- Doctor Manhattan had abandoned Earth & humanity at the end of the movie & the comic.  His implication of creating life in no way supported the premise that he would just go create some new naive humans.  He thought humanity was flawed.  No way he would go Adam & Eve on his clean slate.  And then get bored with it after one try & return to Earth looking for a new girlfriend?  Ridiculous.

- Veidt ends the movie secure in his decision.  He & Manhattan are the only ones who, without condemning or condoning, understand.  TV Show Veidt is a totally different character.  And he never would have left his office unsecured such that a destined for death custodian (come on, you know she was) could steal his DNA & create a daughter via turkey baster.  Ridiculous.

- "Laurie" the character in the TV show is pretty awesome.  But seriously watch the movie & imagine any path that exists where Laurie evolves into "Laurie".  Any path.  They are totally different people.   And if you can remotely imagine a path in your head where that transition from wallflower to badass happens, then we need to see it.  At the end of the movie she has literally no path there, so this extraordinary metamorphosis needs to be shown to us the viewers or else it's... Ridiculous.

You can't just say "it happened but you didn't see it".  You can't handwave a 180 in character because "time passed".  Otherwise it's just a story you wanted to tell where you co-opt an existing universe & slap existing names onto totally different characters.  Which is what this show was.

 

The show is not a sequel to the movie. 
 

i think the movie was more invested in their being heroes.  Not sure moore was. I think Snyder liked veidt. 
 

manhattan did it because he had always done it. And it makes sense. He always wanted love. 

Edited February 11, 2020 by Affogato

[Ubiquitous]

On ‎12‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 8:13 PM, saoirse said:

"See How They Fly". Everything ends. For real this time.

Damon Lindelof totally dropped the ball on this one. Again. I am so glad I invested a
minimal amount of effort on this show. I was scared this show was going off the rails when they revealed Dr M had inhabited Cal's body all these years with some sort of amnesia inhibitor in his cranium but sadly my instincts were confirmed with all this stealing his powers nonsense.

I was not impressed by how everyone was resolved, either. Way too contrived.

[phoenics]

Maybe I'm in a minority, but this is the best and most layered comic show I have ever seen.  Just wow.

I knew there was gonna be an Inception ending though... 

Sad about Jon - I really bought into that lovestory with Angela.  Kinda bummed we never got a full on reaction from Laurie about that though... not even a WTF Jon? LOL.  I mean we saw she was upset he was captured and about to die but beyond that I guess I expected something snarky from her in the end.

I loved this show.  Just loved it.  Sad there won't be a season 2, but honestly where could the story go?

 

[Ubiquitous]

On ‎2‎/‎9‎/‎2020 at 8:30 PM, phoenics said:

Maybe I'm in a minority, but this is the best and most layered comic show I have ever seen.  Just wow.

Just like Lost, where none of it mattered at the end. I was going to elaborate on what I wrote two months after the finally but TBH, I don't care. The biggest deal-breaker for me was what happened with Dr. Manhattan was ridiculous and when Lady Treiu's tower that was designed to withstand tornados, earthquakes, and hurricanes and last for a thousands years was destroyed by some frozen shrimp.

[Bruinsfan]

On 12/16/2019 at 1:13 PM, mac123x said:

It reminded me of a scene from Man of Steel where Clark is in a church trying to decide if he should turn himself in to save humanity.  He shares the frame with a stained-glass window of Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane.  Blunt and unsubtle symbolism, so I guess the director of episode 9 was doing an homage to Zach Snyder.

There was a lot of phallic imagery in the final episode, which would support that.

On 12/16/2019 at 7:26 PM, DesertCyclist said:

All I have to say is that James Wolk has the most perfect chest in the entire history of chests.

He's certainly in contention for the title in my opinion.

On 12/19/2019 at 11:10 AM, Lunula said:

I agree with you @jeansheridan except on one point, I thought the casting for Keene (James Wolk) was terrible and each time he spoke with that crappy, fake southern accent I cringed. 

I've lived in North Carolina since I was a kid (~35 years) and I wish, wish, WISH Hollywood would get better accent coaches for American southerners. I can fake a pretty darn authentic accent for the Piedmont area, but it really is a skill and contrary to (apparently) popular belief, most people can't fake it and pass as a native. A bad fake accent of any kind can quickly ruin any movie or TV show for me. Luckily Keene was more of a cartoon character anyway. 

It was particularly galling since most of his lines were opposite Jean Smart, whom I consider the world champion of mastering a specific Southern accent. As Charlene on Designing Women she sounded EXACTLY like my aunt from Poplar Bluff, MO when she was younger, to the point that I doubt I would have been able to tell them apart without a visual. I hope listening to that cornpone fake Okie accent didn't give Ms. Smart a headache from wincing internally.

[Quickbeam]

I’m a hand waver on canon minutiae.....but I loved the finale. Jean Smart owned this series, every minute she was on screen. I hope she gets the Emmy, it was a masterclass in weary.

[CigarDoug]

On 12/16/2019 at 5:48 AM, arc said:

Also, I assumed Dan Dreiberg and Laurie took Archie back to America in 1985. How did they get back otherwise?

Um, they had a big blue friend standing right there who could teleport them?

Side note, I presume Veidt had some mode of transportation to and from Karnak. He had to GET there in the first place, so did his minions, and the last few were killed by him, so at least their "cars" would be in the parking lot. Unless the last people to arrive were dropped off, and the drivers of the snowmobiles left them. But then, the drivers would know the place existed.

It's also not clear why they couldn't land Archie outside of Karnak, and had to use the snow Vespas to get to the lair. Maybe the storms prevented flying in?

On 12/16/2019 at 7:15 AM, kay1864 said:

Hmm, nice thought, but I’m not sure that Jon experienced his entire life that way, I.e. that it’s retroactive. I got the impression it’s only the moments since he became Dr. M.

I’ll have to check the graphic novel to see if it included when his father rejected watchmaking, or when the fat man stepped on Janey’s  watch.

He does remember previous incidents. "The watch gears are falling to the street..." 

[arc]

18 hours ago, CigarDoug said:

Um, they had a big blue friend standing right there who could teleport them?

If I remember the comic right, Jon left the planet before Dan and Laurie woke up.

[Kel Varnsen]

On 4/23/2020 at 10:23 AM, Ubiquitous said:

was ridiculous and when Lady Treiu's tower that was designed to withstand tornados, earthquakes, and hurricanes and last for a thousands years was destroyed by some frozen shrimp.

I really liked this series but that was pretty dumb. Those things were the size of large hail stones. Hail storms can do a lot of damage but I don't think they can crush the roof of a car.

On the plus side Angela's kick ass Buick Grand National survived and that is what is really important.

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 5/11/2021 at 6:59 AM, CigarDoug said:

It's also not clear why they couldn't land Archie outside of Karnak, and had to use the snow Vespas to get to the lair. Maybe the storms prevented flying in?

In the comic, Dan had kept Archie submerged underwater for a long time just prior to going to Karnak, and so that residual water froze a bunch of Archie's mechanisms and forced them to crash land. So they took scooters from where Archie crashed to Karnak.

On 5/12/2021 at 1:39 AM, arc said:

If I remember the comic right, Jon left the planet before Dan and Laurie woke up.

Jon said he was going to leave in a conversation with Adrian. I don't think the comic showed when he actually did leave. 

He could have taken Dan and Laurie back before doing so. Or given that he's Jon, any number of things could have happened -- he could have split himself into multiple parts, one of which teleported Dan and Laurie and then reunited with the rest of him, or he could have left to another galaxy and came back in time/space to teleport Dan and Laurie. 

Not to mention that HBO Watchmen is not a perfect fit sequel to graphic novel Watchmen, so even if the gn had had Jon leaving before being able to transport Dan and Laurie, HBO Watchmen could retcon that part.

[Rai]

Just did a rewatch of the series over the weekend, totally cried when Dr. Manhattan told Angela he's in every moment with her, omg, how can this show also be so romantic? I think the series still holds up on rewatching! That's impressive.

What I do want to mention is I saw a comment here about how everyone kept trying to take Dr. Manhattan's powers, and that's a great insight. The Seventh Kalvary and Madam Trieu both trying to rip them out of him against his will, and we know they'll only be used for hate and world domination if one of them succeeds. Veidt remains more of a gray area because he only tried to neutralize Dr. Manhattan, not outright kill him/take over his powers (okay, he did try to kill him, but he mainly just needed Dr. Manhattan distracted).

But in order to gain a god's powers, a god needs to grant you them. Jon got them through a terrible accident just trying to do a favor for the woman he loved at that time, and now he consciously gives another woman he loves the gift of his powers, knowing another terrible accident is coming. The price of his powers is love and tragedy, but at the end of it all, willingly done. Incredible work on everyone's parts.

[paramitch]

I just binged this over the weekend and thought it was pretty stunning overall. And as always, I so enjoyed reading through everyone's thoughts after each episode -- so much good stuff to think about, and so many details I never would have noticed!

I thought this was a satisfying ending, providing a contained story that was thought-provoking and smart, but which also provided just enough little fun lingering questions to make the show feel like this universe will continue on somewhere (even if the show was a one-off, sadly).

For me, this show has been an absolute triumph of television -- just superb in every single aspect. And such a treat! Getting this kind of rich, gorgeously conceived fantasy/genre show with complex, intelligent and strong female and POC characters at the forefront, and led by one of the most talented Black actresses of her generation, feels like such a gift. I mean, oh my God, I feel like the show was basically a love letter to Regina King in the best most deserved way -- and she took that moment and absolutely made it magnificent. (Having recently binged "Leftovers" to S2 so far before this, I wondered if Lindelof didn't witness her incredible work there and go, "This woman needs to headline a series" and go with it, and if so, YES.)

Further, the show's incorporation of the Tulsa massacre was immediately riveting, horrifying, and incredibly thought-provoking, and the show's handling of race -- putting it front and center -- has been really moving.

And so upsetting, because I never heard about this until a few years ago. I'm middle-aged but -- nope. Nothing. So I am one of those white privileged people who had never been educated on the Tulsa massacre and other similar events until the past few years and it still feels utterly inexplicable to me. How in the f!ck is this not a REQUIRED part of our curriculum? How are we not sick over this as Americans? I just... I can't even. I am still so enraged and upset over it. (I grew up in the South for a lot of my childhood, so that probably explains the literal whitewashing -- aghgh. This now leads us directly to the NECESSITY for Critical Race Theory inclusion across our country -- which won't happen. And now I'm depressed. Gah.

With this in mind, still, this episode was really satisfying for me. I loved watching Angela and Cal at the center of the action, and was really moved by them. When Cal/Jon tells Angela, "This is the moment I fell in love with you," it's such a complex and perfect Dr. Manhattan thing -- that something she does moments before his death causes him to love her, instantly, in all timelines past and present. (And of COURSE he fell in love with her because Angela is a force of nature and I love that she will never yield to anyone.

I love Laurie and Jean Smart's performance, and honestly if there were ever a spinoff, I am so there. And Laurie's episode remains my favorite of this season. There was a humor and lightness to it that was missing from the rest of the show for me (but I still loved it)

Knocking out Veidt's monologuing in the finale was fabulous.

I have no doubt that Angela walked on water. Honestly, I'm not even sure she needed the egg. My only hesitation is that she has already suffered so much -- I'm with those who hope she can turn the DM abilities off and still be a family and mom (for her own mental health) versus a bringer of vengeance. I hope this gave her peace.

As a few minor quibbles:

• I was disappointed that, in the end, Judd and his wife were simply straight-up textbook racists. I just had hoped for more complexity there -- the first episode had painted such a persuasive portrait of Judd as heroic -- for instance, he almost dies taking down one of the escaping racists, crashing the aircraft by taking an impossible shot even though he didn't have to do that if he was just shamming. It would just have been more interesting to me to see that he (and his wife) truly had affection for Angela -- for instance, like those racists who excuse themselves by saying they like "some" people of color, etc. So I was disappointed he was just evidently pure evil and there was no texture there at all. I prefer my villains greyscale (which was why I did think Lady Trieu was so much fun).
• The scientific logistics of the frozen squid rain were a little iffy for me but I went with it. I can buy that while squid-hail might not be super deadly, that it was the velocity -- that they were basically squid bullets -- that made them so devastating. However, I was skeptical that they were able to take out the Clock.
• Veidt's arc didn't really work for me overall. I found his story and revelation ultimately disappointing, and the tone was just too broadly, weirdly comic for me. I did like the overall idea that this brilliant man who thought he wanted a paradise was so bored with it that it became his hell -- so that he eventually spent his time torturing the poor, pure "Adam" and "Eve" beings, frantic to escape.
• I wish we'd gotten some kind of afterlife/sense of the Europe Adam/Eve personas. I cared about them and feel like this was shallowly drawn. What if Veidt's departure had sparked a real step forward -- growth, procreation (given their inspiration) etc? I just feel like this was a lost creative opportunity.

Last but not least -- I do think that it's a little bit of a shame to me that there is so much fury and sneering at Lindelof over "Lost" out there, because I think it tarnishes some incredible work since then, both on "The Leftovers" and here, with "Watchmen." I also have to admit that I'm totally biased, because I don't hate "Lost," and I honestly thought the latter seasons were much more interesting and fun than the early "big mystery" ones, when the show just seemed to go bonkers and cut loose in the best way (adding terrific actors and characters). And I flat-out loved the finale and ugly-cried my way enjoyably through it. So I was never furious at "Lost" in that "my show betrayed me!" way that I felt, for instance, at "The Magicians" (don't get me started on the S4 finale—years later, I'm still so furious), or the series finale of "Merlin" (grr), etc.

I totally get those who are angry over "Lost" even if I don't share it, but that doesn't mean the rest of his work (and that show had a heavy rotation among production, writers, etc.) isn't worthy. Just my take, no pressure if you feel differently.

Meanwhile, I feel like this was a fantastic, smart, beautiful exercise in short-form -- a beautiful limited series that I will treasure having watched, and providing a template for more diversity and inclusivity going forward.

[Mr. Sparkle]

47 minutes ago, paramitch said:

For me, this show has been an absolute triumph of television -- just superb in every single aspect.

I can't agree more. One of the best seasons of tv I've seen. 

[Catfi9ht]

37 minutes ago, paramitch said:

I do think that it's a little bit of a shame to me that there is so much fury and sneering at Lindelof over "Lost" out there, because I think it tarnishes some incredible work since then, both on "The Leftovers" and here, with "Watchmen."

I started watching Lost but couldn't get into it. Lost and Carnivale started at the same time, and Carnivale was much more interesting to me so I dropped Lost. If you haven't watched Carnivale, I highly recommend it.

What I have read is Lindelof had a set story for Lost and the network kept renewing it so he and the writing staff were literally making things up as they went along. I can understand why quality suffered and plot lines were dropped if that was the case. 

If you compare Lindelof's and Abrams's bodies of work after Lost, I'd say Abrams has more of an issue resolving endings and plot lines than Lindelof. Maybe the issues with Lost were more on Abrams than Lindelof but for some reason Lindelof is blamed more by the fans. I'm not in that fandom so I have no idea why that is. Full disclosure: I also think Abrams's work is based on nostalgia than story so I think he's just okay.

When Lindelof tells the story he intends to, the results have been pretty fantastic. I think that's why he was adamant that Watchmen would be a single season. He wanted to tell his story and move on. I completely respect him for that. I think fans should be okay with that too. I'd rather have a finite, fantastic story than a lengthy, mediocre one.

[Bruinsfan]

7 hours ago, Catfi9ht said:

What I have read is Lindelof had a set story for Lost and the network kept renewing it so he and the writing staff were literally making things up as they went along. I can understand why quality suffered and plot lines were dropped if that was the case.

David Fury was a co-executive producer on Lost's first season and infamously said "There's no plan!" once he was off the project. If Lindelof did have a set story for the show he didn't share it with the writing staff or anyone else actually working on it that year. That said, I loved what he did with Watchmen.

[paramitch]

12 hours ago, Catfi9ht said:

I started watching Lost but couldn't get into it. Lost and Carnivale started at the same time, and Carnivale was much more interesting to me so I dropped Lost. If you haven't watched Carnivale, I highly recommend it.

What I have read is Lindelof had a set story for Lost and the network kept renewing it so he and the writing staff were literally making things up as they went along. I can understand why quality suffered and plot lines were dropped if that was the case. 

If you compare Lindelof's and Abrams's bodies of work after Lost, I'd say Abrams has more of an issue resolving endings and plot lines than Lindelof. Maybe the issues with Lost were more on Abrams than Lindelof but for some reason Lindelof is blamed more by the fans. I'm not in that fandom so I have no idea why that is. Full disclosure: I also think Abrams's work is based on nostalgia than story so I think he's just okay.

When Lindelof tells the story he intends to, the results have been pretty fantastic. I think that's why he was adamant that Watchmen would be a single season. He wanted to tell his story and move on. I completely respect him for that. I think fans should be okay with that too. I'd rather have a finite, fantastic story than a lengthy, mediocre one.

First off, I LOVED Carnivale. Do not get me started. I'm still so upset that we never got season 3, especially after the incredible ending to season 2.

Yeah, that was my understanding on how "Lost" progressed as well. The irony for me is, I thought the show was so much better when it went off the rails and just went batshit (in the best way). I was way more invested by season 3 than I had been in seasons 1 and 2 (I just felt it was honestly very simplistic, and the character episodes too often disappointed me and made the characters seem kind of unbelievably dumb -- like the "heist to steal the toy airplane" episode etc).

It's great that you mention Abrams vs. Lindelof. Because Abrams started out like such a firecracker for me with "Alias" and "Lost" (I was so-so on "Felicity"), but honestly his work for me has been a steady decline ever since and he has rarely impressed me as a writer. At best I find him workmanlike, at worst? Well, let's just say I was not a fan of "Rise of Skywalker," and leave it at that.

Whereas Lindelof has blossomed into someone I really think is a prodigious talent -- and his imagination really humbles me.  Between this and "The Leftovers," he's done some of the most beautiful writing I have ever seen on TV, period.

And I totally agree -- I'm glad this was a one-off series. I think the show as it is is a perfect thing. I don't need to see anything more -- I feel like I know what will happen to those characters and that they will all be okay (or not, depending on their just desserts, VEIDT).