Season Three: Marvelous Full-Season Discussion

[Pallas]

Your place to discuss the season as a whole, or the series to date (seasons 1 - 3). 

[Quilt Fairy]

I was worried when I read some of the so-so reviews in the press, but now that I have watched it myself I thought it was a terrific season, equal in quality to the first 2 seasons.  I just wish it hadn't ended on such a down note. 

[Aulty]

I've binged the whole show yesterday and as I can't keep the episodes apart I'll have to give my verdict on the whole season: a bit disappointing.

It started strong but lost steam very quickly. Season 3 spent a lot of time on secondery stories - some worked, some did not and at some point Midge's mom (the actress playing her does such a great job) is not wrong when she pointed out that Midge's choices ended up affecting the whole family.

The story with Joel's club and its downstairs secret got old really fast, although I like Mae as his new GF. The Vegas wedding annoyed me and I can't figure out if they want Joel and Midge to end up together at the end of the series or not. Susi's sidegig was set up to teach her a few lessons about managing, but the Jane Lynch character is really grating. As are Joel's parents: I don't find them funny anymore.

It felt like there were more of those extended dance numbers this season and for me they tend to take the pace out of the episodes. Also, there are scene setups that are similar to AMS' other shows (the dance club Lenny took Midge too was very GG revival). On the other hand, I dreaded seeing Liza Weil in this show, but she did great, and Sterling K. Brown was a good addition too - especially when he sang on stage.

Shame that we saw so little of Lenny Bruce, but the first episode where Abe got himself arrested for standing up to him was gold. It was also nice that we got to see more of Midge's routines and how she structures them. I wonder if Abe, the theatre critic to be, will have to review one of Midge's gig in the next season.

Good to see Midge's doctor ex boyfriend again. I was almost hoping that they would get together after their blowout in the deli.

This season was set out to give Midge and Susie room to develop their skills, to learn and observe. But for an arc that comes full circle in the end, dropping them off at more or less the same stage of their careers from which they set out in the beginning, it lacked the roller coaster ride in between.

Edit: Who paid Susie's plane tickets when she went back and forth to be with either Miss Julie or Midge? Plane tickets cost a bloody fortune back then.

Edited December 7, 2019 by Aulty

[Juneau Gal]

Thanks to being grounded by a cold, I binge watched the season over two days. I guess I can best sum up my feelings with, if the first episode of this season had been the first I had ever watched of this show, I would not have gone on to episode two. This whole season, with a few shining exceptions, fell flat for me. The extended musical scenes were tedious and smacked of the writers having no real plan on how to fill an episode. Lazy. 
Characters acted either out of character - the proud Sophie Lennon who so wanted to prove herself falling back on shtick - or were amplified to cartoons of themselves - the Maisel. 
Joel, the least interesting character since the start, getting such a prominent storyline. And then the Vegas remarriage? Please, how stupid and again, tedious. 
Suzy with her gambling addiction. There is no way the straight shooting Suzy we have come to know from the other seasons would have touched Midge’s money. 
Although I love the fashions, I found myself thinking multiple times as another never before seen, perfect outfit was sported by Midge, how does all this gibe with the fact that she and her whole family are homeless? Silly, I know, it’s all fantasy TV land, but since more reality of the era was introduced this season via Shy Baldwin’s situation both as a black man and a gay man, I guess I expected reality to extend to Midge having to rewear a dress. 
Midge’s over inflated sense of self has always been difficult for me, by the end of season two she was my least favorite character on the show because of it. I liked the times this season when she was shown as focusing on someone other than herself, helping Shy when he was in a mood and after he was beaten, and I enjoyed I enjoyed her getting her comeuppance from both Benjamin and by getting kicked off the tour. A bit of humility would add to the character. 
I have gone too long already and I’m sure there is much more to write, but I’ll end with this: I’m not afraid of language and use colorful euphemisms a lot myself. The use of “fuck” this season seemed to be excessive, especially by Suzy. It lessened the effect, was sloppy, and and became annoying/distracting. 

[qtpye]

2 hours ago, Juneau Gal said:

Thanks to being grounded by a cold, I binge watched the season over two days. I guess I can best sum up my feelings with, if the first episode of this season had been the first I had ever watched of this show, I would not have gone on to episode two. This whole season, with a few shining exceptions, fell flat for me. The extended musical scenes were tedious and smacked of the writers having no real plan on how to fill an episode. Lazy. 
Characters acted either out of character - the proud Sophie Lennon who so wanted to prove herself falling back on shtick - or were amplified to cartoons of themselves - the Maisel. 
Joel, the least interesting character since the start, getting such a prominent storyline. And then the Vegas remarriage? Please, how stupid and again, tedious. 
Suzy with her gambling addiction. There is no way the straight shooting Suzy we have come to know from the other seasons would have touched Midge’s money. 
Although I love the fashions, I found myself thinking multiple times as another never before seen, perfect outfit was sported by Midge, how does all this gibe with the fact that she and her whole family are homeless? Silly, I know, it’s all fantasy TV land, but since more reality of the era was introduced this season via Shy Baldwin’s situation both as a black man and a gay man, I guess I expected reality to extend to Midge having to rewear a dress. 
Midge’s over inflated sense of self has always been difficult for me, by the end of season two she was my least favorite character on the show because of it. I liked the times this season when she was shown as focusing on someone other than herself, helping Shy when he was in a mood and after he was beaten, and I enjoyed I enjoyed her getting her comeuppance from both Benjamin and by getting kicked off the tour. A bit of humility would add to the character. 
I have gone too long already and I’m sure there is much more to write, but I’ll end with this: I’m not afraid of language and use colorful euphemisms a lot myself. The use of “fuck” this season seemed to be excessive, especially by Suzy. It lessened the effect, was sloppy, and and became annoying/distracting. 

The way she was going on and on about what losers her children would be if they did not go to an expensive boarding school and they way they all looked down on the Maisels for living in Queens was rather disgusting ....particularly considering they were living on the charity of Joel’s family.

She is working girl that still wants to live a rich girl’s life. The way her parents destroyed their income sources before having a plan was stupid. The board was horrible to Rose but people have to grin and bear horrible bosses all the time for a much more modest pay out.

Implying that a successful black man was gay would be death for a performer during this time period. Heck, it would be death for a white performer as well. Something Midge, being a woman of her time, would know even if she has some very progressive views.

Edited December 7, 2019 by qtpye

[Cramps]

For what it’s worth, Collegiate isn’t a boarding school. It’s a prestigious all boys day school in Manhattan. 
 

And yes, that’s part of Midge’s character. in this fantasy. She’s led a charmed life, even when it’s tarnished, and she expects to continue to. 

[qtpye]

3 hours ago, Cramps said:

For what it’s worth, Collegiate isn’t a boarding school. It’s a prestigious all boys day school in Manhattan. 
 

And yes, that’s part of Midge’s character. in this fantasy. She’s led a charmed life, even when it’s tarnished, and she expects to continue to. 

One of the consistent themes with Midge’s side of the family is the ego stroking. Abe was so proud of his job in the laboratory until he realized he was the low man on the totem pole and that his son has far exceeded his own professional achievements. When he came back to visit his old class room, I realized he is the type of teacher that holds his students down to prop himself up.

Rose is really not as bad but it is ridiculous that this homeless family insists on keeping a maid.

Also, with the generous trust fund, Abe’s salary as a professor, and the beautiful rent free apartment...this family still did not manage to accumulate anything in the way of savings?

[preeya]

An observation: For all the Grey's Anatomy fans. Does anyone beside me think Shy Baldwin and Maggie Pierce could pass for siblings?

   

[Riplet68]

I liked the secondary characters better this season than last.  My heart Is already breaking for midge and Lenny come 1966.

[Quilt Fairy]

11 minutes ago, Riplet68 said:

 My heart Is already breaking for midge and Lenny come 1966.

I don't think you have to worry about that.  From what I have read, ASP has planned this as a 5 season show, and the first 3 seasons have taken up something like 2 - 2 1/2 years. I can't see seasons 4 and 5 taking up 5 years in story time. 

[debraran]

10 hours ago, qtpye said:

One of the consistent themes with Midge’s side of the family is the ego stroking. Abe was so proud of his job in the laboratory until he realized he was the low man on the totem pole and that his son has far exceeded his own professional achievements. When he came back to visit his old class room, I realized he is the type of teacher that holds his students down to prop himself up.

Rose is really not as bad but it is ridiculous that this homeless family insists on keeping a maid.

Also, with the generous trust fund, Abe’s salary as a professor, and the beautiful rent free apartment...this family still did not manage to accumulate anything in the way of savings?

My daughter's boyfriends parents worked for a boarding school in UK and had free rent for years. Finally at almost 50 they bought their own small home. You might get paid less but with mortgage and other things paid for, you should be able too. Also a car like in NYC is not really needed.

I was thinking how dumb Rose was but she didn't sign anything so probably not legal that she pulled away from the trust fund. I can see Abe, like many husbands of his time being a little clueless of his finances but really? He didn't realize his salary (they did taxes) didn't cover 200 dresses and all the rest?

[shapeshifter]

21 hours ago, Juneau Gal said:

Although I love the fashions, I found myself thinking multiple times as another never before seen, perfect outfit was sported by Midge, how does all this gibe with the fact that she and her whole family are homeless? Silly, I know, it’s all fantasy TV land, but since more reality of the era was introduced this season via Shy Baldwin’s situation both as a black man and a gay man, I guess I expected reality to extend to Midge having to rewear a dress.

I thought maybe they were giving a little nod to the ridiculousness of Midge having 200 dresses when (maybe episode 5?) Lenny Bruce asked her to hang out as she was coming off of her set in a black dress, and she said she needed 10 minutes to change into another dress. There was even a little bantering between them ending with Lenny saying, "It depends on the dress," which turned out to be no more or less formal, just patterned.

Or maybe I'm giving Sherman-Palladino et al. too much credit for self reflection.

[Riplet68]

I liked the secondary characters better this season than last.  My heart Is already breaking for midge and Lenny come 1966.

I’m rewatching season 1.  One of the reasons midge was so mad at Joel (besides cheating on her and leaving), is he totally screwed up Their finances, his dad paid for everything.  Susie giving him control over mistress money Isn’t a good idea.  Also, midge’s going to ask Moise for money is almost shot for shot of Joel going to his dad to tell him he left midge.

[Quilt Fairy]

3 minutes ago, Riplet68 said:

he totally screwed up Their finances, his dad paid for everything.  

3 minutes ago, Riplet68 said:

Also, midge’s going to ask Moise for money is almost shot for shot of Joel going to his dad to tell him he left midge.

I think of all 7 main characters in the show, Moische and Suzie are the only ones who really understand where money comes from and how much stuff costs.  The others have been too insulated.  Of course, Moische had Shirley do his books for 30 years.  I don't know if he's crazy or crazy like a fox. 

When Joel met with the club owners and the wife kept trying to slide over 2 stacks of money to keep him silent it reminded me of Shirley coming up with stacks of cash when she and Moische were trying to get a bank loan. 

I have a feeling that Rosie's family is going to say "Oh, isn't that sweet, our little Rosie had a temper tantrum, well that's what girls do" and keep sending her money. 

[shapeshifter]

In the last episode when Susie tearfully tells Joel that he is going to be receiving Midge's earnings because he "loves her," I thought to myself: Seriously? Joel? In charge of Midge's money? Let me count the ways this is not a good idea. 
Reading this post:

5 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

I think of all 7 main characters in the show, Moische and Suzie are the only ones who really understand where money comes from and how much stuff costs.

makes me think Midge's in-laws (or ex-in-laws, depending upon the moment) should be receiving her paychecks. They would take a fixed amount off the top to pay for the apartment (where their grandchildren et al. will live), and set aside the rest to dole out to Midge when she needs it.

[Quilt Fairy]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

makes me think Midge's in-laws (or ex-in-laws, depending upon the moment) should be receiving her paychecks

Nah.  Shirley would be hiding money and  making treasure maps.

[retrograde]

5 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

In the last episode when Susie tearfully tells Joel that he is going to be receiving Midge's earnings because he "loves her," I thought to myself: Seriously? Joel? In charge of Midge's money? Let me count the ways this is not a good idea. 

YES, thank you. Does no one remember Joel squandered their money previously? Maybe Susie doesn't know, I guess, but she at least knows Joel cheated and made a bunch of terrible decisions. 

In truth, I think Joel is really just the only person she knew to ask. 

On a related note, I was left confused by Midge's financial situation. Did Susie blow her money or did she still have some saved? What happens to the apartment then?

Anyway, I generally enjoyed this season, though the show continues to struggle to make me care about Joel or Midge's family (or Joel's family). I also think it flagged a bit at the end. Midge had a bit of character growth in terms of her career taking off some more, and realizing she doesn't have to be a total itinerant loner to be a comic (or maybe Paris Geller showed her being an itinerant loner is fine? I wasn't sure). But she seems to have ultimately landed at the end of this season pretty much where she was at the end of last season, but with nothing much to look forward to. I just hope they have somewhere more interesting to go next season than "Midge overcomes her hardship by climbing to the top of the NYC comedy scene -- again!" 

[Riplet68]

My take was Susie gambled all of midge’s money.

 Somewhere else someone posted about seeing more of her brother and sister in law.  That would be great to watch the converted Jew struggle with everything.  Her comments at the Bris were cracking me up; and Joel and his dad being in whoo was gonna topple... great!  Though why they’d have it at the Maisel when it’s midge’s brother is beyond me.  Extended family being so connected is just not in my background.

[shapeshifter]

13 hours ago, retrograde said:

On a related note, I was left confused by Midge's financial situation. Did Susie blow her money or did she still have some saved? What happens to the apartment then

Susie and her sister got their dead mother’s house torched for the insurance money. While they were watching it burn, Susie said the insurance money would cover Midge’s money lost to gambling. 
But unless someone or something intervenes, I would expect Susie to gamble away the insurance money too. 

[debraran]

So any ideas for next season, far, far away? I feel Midge is way too good now to not find work and knows a few contacts now.  How long will be part of the plot and Susies gambling can’t be fixed over the break. I hope it’s not a constant though.   I think even back then arson was investigated and I feel will be a tension filled couple of episodes.  Any gossip about Shy or Lenny being a part of season 4?

I liked  this recap.   https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2019/12/8980438/marvelous-mrs-maisel-season-3-finale-midge-jokes-shy-tour

Edited December 10, 2019 by debraran

[maggiegil]

The money on this show really doesn't make sense, Joel's Dad gave him $60k at the end of last season. The monthly rent for the club was like $500 a month (if I remember correctly), hes living at the factory and doesn't appear to pay alimony to Midge. Why does he say he can't afford $1100 to send Ethan to Collegiate?

I was hoping Rose's family story would have come back like Rose gets Ethan a seat on the board or something.

I was glad they brought Benjamin back, he respects Midge's career and the actors have great chemistry

[Quilt Fairy]

1 hour ago, maggiegil said:

The money on this show really doesn't make sense, Joel's Dad gave him $60k at the end of last season. The monthly rent for the club was like $500 a month (if I remember correctly), hes living at the factory and doesn't appear to pay alimony to Midge. Why does he say he can't afford $1100 to send Ethan to Collegiate?

I think Joel is just trying to be more fiscally responsible.  When he was married to Midge they were living way beyond their means.  $500 a month is the least of the start-up costs he's accrued so far.  He's rehabbed the entire place, bought furniture, bought booze, hired employees, hired acts, paid for ads, etc., etc., etc. And he has no idea when - or even if - he will make a profit.

I think Joel will be far more careful of Midge's money than he was of his salary when he worked for his uncle. 

[debraran]

3 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

I think Joel is just trying to be more fiscally responsible.  When he was married to Midge they were living way beyond their means.  $500 a month is the least of the start-up costs he's accrued so far.  He's rehabbed the entire place, bought furniture, bought booze, hired employees, hired acts, paid for ads, etc., etc., etc. And he has no idea when - or even if - he will make a profit.

I think Joel will be far more careful of Midge's money than he was of his salary when he worked for his uncle. 

I'm sure knowing people with real business's, utilities, rent/mortgage, and insurance on your place adds up along with the things you mentioned. So many fail the first year and I think he will be more mature.

I feel Mosche will let Midge stay since he could afford the apartment until her money comes in again but not without a lot of words. 😉

[plurie]

15 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Susie and her sister got their dead mother’s house torched for the insurance money. While they were watching it burn, Susie said the insurance money would cover Midge’s money lost to gambling. 
But unless someone or something intervenes, I would expect Susie to gamble away the insurance money too. 

That's why Susie put Joel in charge of Midge's finances. She knows she has a gambling problem. I'm pretty sure she'll immediately give the insurance money to Joel for Midge, so as to avoid this temptation.

Susie is a TERRIBLE manager, even without the embezzlement. I don't understand why they hadn't signed the contract with Shy sooner. They shouldn't be leaving on an international tour without a signed contract. And it's clear that she didn't do a good job negotiating the radio spots, or they wouldn't have been paid in sanitary napkins and pancake syrup, not to mention not vetting the Schlaffley script in advance.

[iMonrey]

I for one thought this was an excellent season. Possibly better than last season - I think I certainly laughed a lot more. I do agree there were a few too many musical numbers, however. I didn't really need to see Shy singing entire songs every episode.

I also agree that Susie is a terrible manager but I suppose that's part of the story. She's probably the funniest character on the show. I did like the way she put Sophie in her place after opening night. That was a great scene. 

If I had to nitpick, I'd say it was a bit hackneyed the way Rose and Abe had to move in with Moishe and Shirley. I think the writers just think those four characters together is hysterical and they just wanted to kind of force them together. It felt somewhat unrealistic, and it especially made Abe look bad because he spent the whole season seemingly unconcerned he couldn't provide for his family. 

I knew something was going to go wrong at the Apollo, I just had a feeling. Maybe it's for the best we're done with Shy, though, if it means less singing.

[meligator]

I think my favorite part was Joel asking Mei if she was born here and her saying - well not this restaurant.  

[mytmo]

I did love the first few episodes but after awhile the Rose and Abe and Moishe and Shirley show got on my nerves - too loud, too manic and not even close to being humerous.  C'mon Rose would really give up that money on principal considering her circumstances?

And another reason Susie sucks at manager is having Midge even do the Apollo gig.  Reggie especially knows the audience as he referred to them as family and still had Midge do the opener ahead of a well known comic.  Not like they were working off a contract.  Susie should've told him see ya at the next gig - enjoy the welcome back reunion.  Just surprised that Reggie (I always have Shy's back) would gamble on a very white comic being accepted at that venue during that time period.

They'll probably have Midge and Sophie tour together next season which is a big nope for me.

[EtheltoTillie]

On 12/7/2019 at 8:12 PM, qtpye said:

Also, with the generous trust fund, Abe’s salary as a professor, and the beautiful rent free apartment...this family still did not manage to accumulate anything in the way of savings?

That's the story of Pride and Prejudice.

[EtheltoTillie]

On 12/7/2019 at 2:31 PM, qtpye said:

The way she was going on and on about what losers her children would be if they did not go to an expensive boarding school and they way they all looked down on the Maisels for living in Queens was rather disgusting ....particularly considering they were living on the charity of Joel’s family.

Also, misplaced snobbery.  That's Kew Gardens, a really nice neighborhood.  And that's a nice mansion they live in.  I grew up nearby in a working-class housing project.  I used to drool over some of those houses.

[debraran]

I feel the writers are usually good, but the more I hear people discuss the end, I can't get over Midge being so clueless. She grew up a well off Jewish girl in the 50's. She knows blacks do not have the rights others do or have it as easy even performers. She knew Shy was gay and saw him beat up, even had him say it happened more than once. She knew the climate at the time was not welcoming to gay people, not matter where they came from. Doris Day would never have outed Rock Hudson. For the writers to have her think "they all knew and were cool with it" was a bit much. Her entire act was on him being gay. I thought the wedding stint she did was cringe-worthy but this just went on a bit too much. I'm glad he let her go and no amount of batting of her eyelashes was going to work. He opened up to her and she treated that gesture badly.

[kwnyc]

Quote

 That's Kew Gardens, a really nice neighborhood.  And that's a nice mansion they live in.  I grew up nearby in a working-class housing project.  I used to drool over some of those houses.

Yes! And Forest Hills was also a tony neighborhood...there are quiet pockets all over Queens and Brooklyn that were wealthy enclaves for high-end types. (I live in Queens, so I am borough-proud!)

[Quilt Fairy]

6 hours ago, mytmo said:

They'll probably have Midge and Sophie tour together next season which is a big nope for me.

First, I think Midge will start doing regular gigs at Joel's club.  Second, I wonder what kind of contract - if any - Suzie has with Sophie considering Harry Drake still has 5 1/2 years left on his management contract with her. 

[qtpye]

57 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

First, I think Midge will start doing regular gigs at Joel's club.  Second, I wonder what kind of contract - if any - Suzie has with Sophie considering Harry Drake still has 5 1/2 years left on his management contract with her. 

Susie is s person who never had any money and that has caused her never to turn anything down. Some of the radio spots were not worth the effort.

She did probably think working with Sophie would up her prestige factor but it did the opposite, since Sophie decided to burn everything to the ground.

[retrograde]

9 hours ago, mytmo said:

They'll probably have Midge and Sophie tour together next season which is a big nope for me.

Agreed. Love Jane Lynch, but I really got my fill of this character this season. I can see the show going to LA for a bit maybe, that would be a really rich comedy scene to explore. I agree with another poster above that it's inevitable Midge will spend some time performing at Joel's club next season too. 

[shapeshifter]

18 hours ago, debraran said:

I feel the writers are usually good, but the more I hear people discuss the end, I can't get over Midge being so clueless. She grew up a well off Jewish girl in the 50's. She knows blacks do not have the rights others do or have it as easy even performers. She knew Shy was gay and saw him beat up, even had him say it happened more than once. She knew the climate at the time was not welcoming to gay people, not matter where they came from. Doris Day would never have outed Rock Hudson. For the writers to have her think "they all knew and were cool with it" was a bit much. Her entire act was on him being gay. I thought the wedding stint she did was cringe-worthy but this just went on a bit too much. I'm glad he let her go and no amount of batting of her eyelashes was going to work. He opened up to her and she treated that gesture badly.

I guess the writers were going for the reaction of outrage you had, @debraran —kind of a #MeToo/Black Lives Matter/etc. goulash.  

I also can’t help assuming that last year’s Emmys influenced some of this year’s plot choices, especially more of Jane Lynch since she won an Emmy. Maybe Sherman-Palladino et al. (maybe even Lynch herself) resented expanding Sophie’s plot — that would explain why much of it seemed to me like something they swept up from the cutting room floor. 
 

At least the trip to Idaho was edited down to the best parts. 

[iMonrey]

Quote

Her entire act was on him being gay.

Oh, I don't know. I don't think she did that deliberately. For one thing, I don't know that the name Judy Garland had the association in 1960 that it does today. I think most of the jokes she made about Shy were just about how attractive and rich he was, and that he liked fancy clothes and always had whatever he wanted handed to him. I don't she meant to insinuate anything about his sexuality, it just read that way to him. 

[Retired at last]

I think I hearted most posts in this discussion. I agree that there were too many side stories, especially for only 8 episodes. I loved her dresses, but agree that she could have worn them more than once. I still think Susie's language is distracting and totally unnecessary. Yes, we all saw it coming that Susie would lose Midge's money, but I hope she can get it back so Midge and family can get the apartment back. But, I also think that Susie will not be able to cash in on the insurance and the arson will be discovered.

And, yes, I love it when Lenny is on with Midge.

Anyone know the date for Season 4? I hope Sterling K Brown will be back, but that would also mean more of Shy and his singing too much. Nice voice, just too much screen time, which I also agree, is an issue with lazy writers not knowing what to do now.

[ShadowFacts]

43 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Oh, I don't know. I don't think she did that deliberately. For one thing, I don't know that the name Judy Garland had the association in 1960 that it does today. I think most of the jokes she made about Shy were just about how attractive and rich he was, and that he liked fancy clothes and always had whatever he wanted handed to him. I don't she meant to insinuate anything about his sexuality, it just read that way to him. 

Judy Garland did have many gay men going to her concerts in the 50s and 60s, and they referred to themselves as "friends of Dorothy". I thought the jokes sounded like descriptions of Liberace lite, and his flamboyance was associated with his being gay though he publicly denied it. It was bad judgment on Midge's part, but she was doing it on the fly, in a panic, with Reggie's encouragement which he wasn't clear about and she misunderstood. At least that's the way I saw it. Shy must have felt pretty betrayed, he gave Midge her big break.

10 minutes ago, Retired at last said:

But, I also think that Susie will not be able to cash in on the insurance and the arson will be discovered.

Susie will be in big trouble if she is discovered. I must have missed something--if she and her sister were the sole heirs, why couldn't they just sell the place?

[debraran]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

Oh, I don't know. I don't think she did that deliberately. For one thing, I don't know that the name Judy Garland had the association in 1960 that it does today. I think most of the jokes she made about Shy were just about how attractive and rich he was, and that he liked fancy clothes and always had whatever he wanted handed to him. I don't she meant to insinuate anything about his sexuality, it just read that way to him. 

Maybe so, but I think these lines said a lot:

Midge says she met Shy in a ladies' bathroom and he was the prettier one. She jokes that Arthur Miller is going to try to date Shy. One line, “He pretty much has a guy for everything else,” could be taken especially scandalously.  Midge calling him a "pretty, dainty, elegant thing" who is gorgeous enough to "play Romeo and Juliet.

I think what bothered me the most is he told her not to tell anyone. He is terrified that his secret will get out. He cries over the idea of Reggie learning this horror happened “again” and explains to Midge all the girls he is seen with are for the photos. “You can’t tell Reggje you found me like this he says. I felt so bad for him living that way.

So yea, I feel Midge is naive at times but not dumb. They made her dumb which isn't attractive. I hope for an apology if he comes back and more of Lenny next year.

Edited December 12, 2019 by debraran

[chitowngirl]

When Reggie was telling Midge why she was off the tour, he mentioned the Judy joke. Susie, who had no idea about Shy, immediately understood the reference and what that meant about Shy. 

I’m guessing Susie’s mother’s house was worth more for the insurance than they could get from selling.

I thought it was interesting that what happened with Sophie is the same thing that happened with Midge-they choked and relied on safe “schtick” and it all fell apart. If Midge would have signed the contract (why didn’t she do that?!), could Shy have dismissed her?

On 12/8/2019 at 1:38 PM, Riplet68 said:

Also, midge’s going to ask Moise for money is almost shot for shot of Joel going to his dad to tell him he left midge.

She didn’t ask for money, she asked him to sell her the apartment.

I love the way this show does its establishing shots. Long sweeping views and fabulous fashions. 

Edited December 12, 2019 by chitowngirl

[Neurochick]

On 12/10/2019 at 5:52 PM, debraran said:

I feel the writers are usually good, but the more I hear people discuss the end, I can't get over Midge being so clueless. She grew up a well off Jewish girl in the 50's. She knows blacks do not have the rights others do or have it as easy even performers. She knew Shy was gay and saw him beat up, even had him say it happened more than once. She knew the climate at the time was not welcoming to gay people, not matter where they came from. Doris Day would never have outed Rock Hudson. For the writers to have her think "they all knew and were cool with it" was a bit much. Her entire act was on him being gay. I thought the wedding stint she did was cringe-worthy but this just went on a bit too much. I'm glad he let her go and no amount of batting of her eyelashes was going to work. He opened up to her and she treated that gesture badly.

I think the issue with Midge is she's privileged, sheltered and very self centered.  She knew everything you mentioned, but to Midge, it's always about her.  If you watch the last scene, Reggie is trying to explain to Midge about what she did and Midge is totally clueless the entire time.  Even Susie got it when Reggie said "Judy Garland."  Susie was like, "oh shit!  Midge is clueless when it comes to other people IMO.

[iMonrey]

Quote

When Reggie was telling Midge why she was off the tour, he mentioned the Judy joke. Susie, who had no idea about Shy, immediately understood the reference and what that meant about Shy. 

Yes, but I think this was largely an anachronism. While it's true that Garland had a loyal gay audience during her lifetime, the association wasn't widely known or held during her lifetime. She was alive and well in 1960 and still very mainstream in terms of celebrity. Just mentioning her name or being a fan or otherwise associating with her did not automatically suggest a sexual orientation. Such things were rarely even discussed in polite company in those days. 

I do see where, collectively, the jokes that Midge was making about Shy could have inferred something suggesting sexual orientation but I wouldn't have read a lot into it as an audience member. They were a lot of jokes about Shy being a "dandy," something that didn't automatically assume sexual orientation back then. But I can see why Shy would be sensitive to it and resentful. 

[chitowngirl]

Was there any acknowledgement that the actor who played Jackie passed away in any of the credits?

[ShadowFacts]

27 minutes ago, chitowngirl said:

Was there any acknowledgement that the actor who played Jackie passed away in any of the credits?

The only dedication I saw was at the beginning of episode one, and it was not to Brian Tarantina.  I might have missed his though, the credits go pretty fast for me at the ends of the episodes and I didn't freeze any.

[geauxaway]

I feel like most of the episodes could have been 40 minutes.

WAY too much “schtick,” which is of course ASP.   The gambling machines “that should be something.”  The radio episode, the subway scene, the senior Maisels, the Chinese basement.  UGH ENOUGH.

U/O but I also hate Mei.  She was just a bitch with too much attitude, snap neck.  
 

I found Joel super sexy this season.  I want him and Midge to find their way back together.

I kinda can’t stand Astrid.  She’s ok when the brother is around, but alone?  She is shrill.  
 

Suzie needs to soften a bit.  Too much.  

[chitowngirl]

I think Midge will be fine career wise. No one in America will really care that she's not on tour in Europe. No one in Europe knows who she is. If asked why she's not with Shy on tour, she and Susie can spin that she wanted/needed to be near her kids/family. She can keep building her self. Shy and Reggie can't really do much damage to her since they're not in the country.

Money-wise, we'll have to see the fallout of Susie's insurance scam. Did Midge lose a lucrative, guaranteed source of income? Sure. But I don't think her father-in-law will kick her and the grandkids out. 

[xaxat]

3 hours ago, chitowngirl said:

I think Midge will be fine career wise.

I don't know. Midge has burned a lot of important bridges. Sophie, the most famous female comedian in the country. Shy, an internationally famous singer. And Suzie burned a bridge with Sophie's old, powerful, talent agency. Plus, when Shy took his "break" it didn't seem like her career was going that great.

And while I agree that the general public won't even know that she is no longer touring with Shy, word within the industry about what she did will definitely get out.

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, chitowngirl said:

I think Midge will be fine career wise. No one in America will really care that she's not on tour in Europe. No one in Europe knows who she is. If asked why she's not with Shy on tour, she and Susie can spin that she wanted/needed to be near her kids/family. She can keep building her self. Shy and Reggie can't really do much damage to her since they're not in the country.

Money-wise, we'll have to see the fallout of Susie's insurance scam. Did Midge lose a lucrative, guaranteed source of income? Sure. But I don't think her father-in-law will kick her and the grandkids out. 

Audiences might not know what happened, but the entertainment industry grapevine will get wind of it.  She was on a marquee in Vegas, an up-and-comer, so she's a known quantity on the business end. She may end up having to cool her heels in Joel's club for awhile. That will bring up Joel's insecurity issues if the club is a success and he has to wonder if it's mainly due to Midge. He got real tense about not wanting help getting the liquor license. On the other hand, he might welcome having Midge draw in crowds, who's to say. She would have to do more than that, though, or things get stagnant in her career and on the show, especially for those who aren't crazy about Joel to begin with.

[debraran]

14 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

Audiences might not know what happened, but the entertainment industry grapevine will get wind of it.  She was on a marquee in Vegas, an up-and-comer, so she's a known quantity on the business end. She may end up having to cool her heels in Joel's club for awhile. That will bring up Joel's insecurity issues if the club is a success and he has to wonder if it's mainly due to Midge. He got real tense about not wanting help getting the liquor license. On the other hand, he might welcome having Midge draw in crowds, who's to say. She would have to do more than that, though, or things get stagnant in her career and on the show, especially for those who aren't crazy about Joel to begin with.

I agree, in their business audience is one thing, the business manager of the venue and other entertainers matter even more.

There is no way though that Joel has a stage for someone other than Midge at this point to shine on. He might have others but Midge will be the hit and she of course wont want to stay. It will give them some moments of drama between her and Mae and Joel but pay? She'll need that soon enough.

[Razzberry]

Everyone in the comic universe should empathize with Midge.  You can't be a comic without saying things that someone doesn't like or hurting some feelings along the way.  What Midge said about Shy was humorous, well received and not mean-spirited.  It was actually pretty mild, and certainly didn't out him to the Apollo audience.