S10.E07: Open Your Eyes

[nodorothyparker 24.8k]

Airdate 2019.11.17

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Carol pushes boundaries that make Daryl uncomfortable.  Alpha and Beta have reservations about someone.

Mod Note:  This thread is for discussion of the episode only.  If you didn't see it happen onscreen, discussion of it does not belong here and your post WILL be removed.  DO NOT DISCUSS CASTING NEWS, including reported cast comings and goings.   We have separate threads for discussing spoilers or the comics.  

[Samwise979 1.6k]

I don't understand why when people in tv and movies figure out the bad guy is the bad guy they don't pretend everything is fine until they get back up??!!

[rmontro 7.5k]

All right, I'm really thinking I'm an idiot here.  I had no idea what was going on at the end until I watched some of Talking Dead, which explained it.  Here's what I thought was going on:

Siddiq was going through some screwy stuff and he was obviously a nutcase.  When Dante came to check on him, I was really afraid that Siddiq was going to kill Dante because he was so unstable (Siddiq, that is).  Then Dante said "Open your eyes" which were trigger words for Siddiq, and that set him off his rocker.  So he started eyeing the chair to bash Dante with, but Dante saw it and intervened to stop it.  Dante put the crazed Siddiq in a hold and tried to calm him down with "Close your eyes".  End show.  

Then Talking Dead came on and explained that really, Dante was a Whisperer spy, which is why Siddiq has had reservations about him, and he killed Siddiq!  I didn't even know that Siddiq was dead lol!  Am I really that stupid?

Also, it looked to me like Siddiq had switched the water to "Undrinkable", causing the epidemic.  But now that I know the above, I'm thinking Dante switched the water, and Siddiq just did it trying to recreate what had happened?  I guess?  Is that right?   

As for the rest of the episode, all I have to say is this:  You don't tug on Superman's cape, you don't spit into the wind, you don't pull the mask off that old Lone Ranger, and you don't spit food in Carol's face.

[walnutqueen 57.6k]

Gah.  I was appreciating the good things about this episode - Carol & Daryl, Daryl & Dog, and NO NEGAN.  Then they had to kill Siddiq and I was reminded that this is why we can't have nice things. 

[icemiser69 11.1k]

Probably the best episode of the season.

I don't watch the Talking Dead.  I didn't need an explanation to see what was going on. 😀  I even amazed myself.  What was going on in the episode actually made sense to me.  The writers actually did a good job for once.   I figured it was Dante that intentionally gave the prisoner hemlock when it happened.  That he was also the one that bent the lever on the fresh water delivery system.

Dante also clicked his teeth together which was also picked up by Siddiq.

6 hours ago, rmontro said:

As for the rest of the episode, all I have to say is this:  You don't tug on Superman's cape, you don't spit into the wind, you don't pull the mask off that old Lone Ranger, and you don't spit food in Carol's face.

I wanted Carol to get her ass kicked, the miserable bitch just uses people.  I was glad Lydia nailed her.

Daryl needs to stop being Carol's lapdog and see her for what she truly is.   Hopefully now that Lydia has run off he will finally get "it".  That is, assuming Daryl finds out why Lydia ran off.

Edited November 18, 2019 by icemiser69

[theredhead77 12.4k]

I found Open Your Eyes to be one of the most terrifying episodes in a while. I had a hard time sleeping after seeing Siddiq's flashbacks to being forced to watch Enid and his friends be murdered. Avi Nash brought his A game (and I feel like a creepy cougar after just discovering he was born in 91) and Samantha Morton really drove home how psychotic Alpha is with her facial expressions and her low, slow talking almost hypnotic voice. Why do these people follow her, live like animals, wear dead skins, sleep on the ground, etc...? She's a cult leader. Why did anyone follow Marshall Applewhite and Bonnie Nettles into the Heaven's Gate cult, or Jim Jones, or David Koresh.
 

[The Mighty Peanut 11.4k]

11 minutes ago, theredhead77 said:

Avi Nash brought his A game (and I feel like a creepy cougar after just discovering he was born in 91) 
 

NO! 91??? He's only 28? I thought FOR SURE he was late 30s/early 40s. The gray hair, ffs. OMG being 40 sucks. None of the cute guys are age appropriate. 

[Lady Iris 4.8k]

That was some damn disturbing shit last night. The cherry on the sundae though was Carol effing up things so royally. I will say it was the most captivated I've been in a good long while.

[The Mighty Peanut 11.4k]

So, for those of you who have said the episode was unclear and/or it took TTD to explain it...you are not alone. I am going through recaps and it is very apparent that some people think Siddiq did pack the pill bottle with hemlock and even may have possibly been the one to mess up the water supply, albeit unintentionally. 

[AngelaHunter 38.1k]

2 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Daryl needs to stop being Carol's lapdog

Daryl needs to be someone's lapdog, to be given direction. He used to be Merle's, then Rick's, so now he's Carol's. It's his nature and we've never seen him put forth a considered plan or an idea about anything. That's not a criticism, just a fact. He's a soldier, not a general.

1 hour ago, theredhead77 said:

She's a cult leader. Why did anyone follow Marshall Applewhite and Bonnie Nettles into the Heaven's Gate cult, or Jim Jones, or David Koresh.

This is true but I wonder how many followers those other cult leaders would have had if they had a standard of living on par with cave people.

12 minutes ago, The Mighty Peanut said:

Siddiq did pack the pill bottle with hemlock

That reminds me - why would a doctor carry hemlock?

[walnutqueen 57.6k]

4 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

This is true but I wonder how many followers those other cult leaders would have had if they had a standard of living on par with cave people.

See: Scientology.  ;~)

5 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

That reminds me - why would a doctor carry hemlock?

Compassionate assisted suicide.  Or, he's on a career path that ends with a feature on Dateline.

[mightysparrow 16.9k]

8 hours ago, rmontro said:

All right, I'm really thinking I'm an idiot here.  I had no idea what was going on at the end until I watched some of Talking Dead, which explained it.  Here's what I thought was going on:

Siddiq was going through some screwy stuff and he was obviously a nutcase.  When Dante came to check on him, I was really afraid that Siddiq was going to kill Dante because he was so unstable (Siddiq, that is).  Then Dante said "Open your eyes" which were trigger words for Siddiq, and that set him off his rocker.  So he started eyeing the chair to bash Dante with, but Dante saw it and intervened to stop it.  Dante put the crazed Siddiq in a hold and tried to calm him down with "Close your eyes".  End show.  

Then Talking Dead came on and explained that really, Dante was a Whisperer spy, which is why Siddiq has had reservations about him, and he killed Siddiq!  I didn't even know that Siddiq was dead lol!  Am I really that stupid?

Also, it looked to me like Siddiq had switched the water to "Undrinkable", causing the epidemic.  But now that I know the above, I'm thinking Dante switched the water, and Siddiq just did it trying to recreate what had happened?  I guess?  Is that right?   

As for the rest of the episode, all I have to say is this:  You don't tug on Superman's cape, you don't spit into the wind, you don't pull the mask off that old Lone Ranger, and you don't spit food in Carol's face.

Nothing like a Jim Croce reference to start the day.

You're not an idiot.  'Talking Dead' has become the writers tool to make up for their lack of skill.  They must sit around the writer's room and say, 'yeah, I know it doesn't make any fucking sense, but Chris will explain it all later'.

I don't think Siddiq was a nutcase but he was definitely suffering from ptsd.  I'm surprised that more people aren't and it's absurd that the writers have neglected this.

Daryl HAS been Carol's lapdog for too long and I'm happy to see that he's daring to question her.  He should have put on his big boy pants a long time ago.  Maybe if he had done that with Merle or Rick things would be different.

The thing about Carol is that she's not COMPLETELY wrong.  The Whisperers need to be dealt with.  There's no living with them,  Carol is definitely endangering the communities with what she's doing but the council needs to get off their asses and start making some kind of plan.  Carol is a dangerous, unbalanced woman.  It's all well and good for her and Alpha to be heading for the ultimate slap-fight but the council needs to act before it comes to that.

I see Rick Grimes' legacy in the council's inaction.  His midnight killing spree on the sleeping walkers got Glenn and Abraham killed and started a war that got a lot of other good people, including his son, killed.  The members of the council are probably all veterans of that war.  But doing NOTHING isn't a solution.  And waiting for the Whisperers to make the first move is way too dangerous.

Edited November 18, 2019 by mightysparrow

[Bad Example 1.8k]

Lydia was just being an overly dramatic teenager.  She said she wanted to help.  The way she helped was showing Gamma she was alive.  But no, that wasn't what Lydia meant, so she is feeling wronged.  

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41 minutes ago, Lady Iris said:

The cherry on the sundae though was Carol effing up things so royally.

Did she, though?  Carol got what she wanted.  Gamma saw Lydia.  And if Lydia isn't willing to do that much for Hilltop/Alexandria/wherever-they-are, she's not choosing herself (tm Kelly Taylor).  She's choosing the Whisperers.  

Should Carol have told her what she was doing?  From Lydia's point of view, yes.  Big picture?  I'm not so sure.  

[nodorothyparker 24.8k]

It was a pretty decent episode as long as like every other Whisperer-centric episode you don't think too hard about the WHY of it.  Why do the Whisperers see living in the woods like feral animals, draping themselves in rotting flesh and living on grubs and worms, as aspirational to the point of being willing to kill for it?  What possible appeal could that have to a guy like Dante, who's seemed genuinely pleased with the perks of civilization and being treated like Somebody as medical authority? This storyline has brought some good moments of being truly tense or scary again in a way that it hasn't for a long time, but it keeps getting stuck on the why beyond, oh, they're a cult.  But the Saviors also initially presented as a cult and it quickly turned out that they were just a bunch of opportunistic assholes who fell apart when push really came to shove.  So what's the big difference?

Anytime the show spends any significant amount of time on the inner life of a character who isn't one of the few remaining Big Main Characters, you already know it's going to end badly for them.  Saddiq seemed a generically nice enough guy for all that he made his entrance getting Carl killed over his freeing walker souls nonsense and there was probably still plenty more that could have done with him as he was one of the few immediately recognizable of the newer crop of characters, but that's that.  The actor did well enough with what they gave him to work with and he always gave Zeke a run for his money for prettiest eyes in the cast.

The imprisoned Whisperer bit player also did nice work in bringing the creepy.  He's a longtime character actor who's seemingly been in everything forever.  While I may be skeptical that 100-pound Carol can repeatedly punch a guy with a ring and do that much damage, (She's always been a character of stealth, not brute strength, show.)  I also have absolutely no patience with coddling Lydia, who's apparently suddenly too fragile to be useful at all to anyone.  She does remember that they're essentially at war and that it's her mommy who killed all those people, including the boy she was mooning after, right?  These people took her in and protected her and fed her.  So what does wanting to help or choosing your own side even mean then, if not to actually be useful as needed so no one else has to die?  She doesn't seem to expect to have to do anything except snit around flipping what always looks like freshly washed hair, which I'm pretty sure she can't pull off if they chuck her out to go back and live with the Whisperers, who all think she's dead anyway.  Sure, it might have been nice if Carol had mentioned to her where they were going, but I'm also kind of enjoying just completely out of fucks to give with making nice with people who cut the heads off of other people Carol too.

Still laughing at Daryl's big shirtless scene that of course was with a dog.  

[theredhead77 12.4k]

49 minutes ago, The Mighty Peanut said:

I am going through recaps and it is very apparent that some people think Siddiq did pack the pill bottle with hemlock and even may have possibly been the one to mess up the water supply, albeit unintentionally. 

It never occurred to me that it wasn't Dante who gave WhisperPrisoner the hemlock so he'd keep his mouth shut. My interpretation is that it was straight up murder to protect the Whisperers. Was Dante in the room when they were first giving WP food or did Dante come in the room which made WP 'harden up' again? I can't recall if Dante was there at all but he had been gaslighting Siddiq since he showed up. 

Wasn't the water supply contaminated by the walker Gamma went stabby stabby on a few weeks back?

[icemiser69 11.1k]

53 minutes ago, Lady Iris said:

That was some damn disturbing shit last night. The cherry on the sundae though was Carol effing up things so royally. I will say it was the most captivated I've been in a good long while.

Carol is so thick headed and used to people kissing her ass, it was nice to see it blow up in her face.

34 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

Daryl needs to be someone's lapdog, to be given direction. He used to be Merle's, then Rick's, so now he's Carol's. It's his nature and we've never seen him put forth a considered plan or an idea about anything. That's not a criticism, just a fact. He's a soldier, not a general.

Which makes him nothing more than a gopher.  The protagonists are short in the brains department as it is.

I wonder if Rosita is going to get involved with Eugene now that Siddiq is dead and Gabriel is preoccupied with being one of the council members of Alexandria.

[mightysparrow 16.9k]

16 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

It was a pretty decent episode as long as like every other Whisperer-centric episode you don't think too hard about the WHY of it.  Why do the Whisperers see living in the woods like feral animals, draping themselves in rotting flesh and living on grubs and worms, as aspirational to the point of being willing to kill for it?  What possible appeal could that have to a guy like Dante, who's seemed genuinely pleased with the perks of civilization and being treated like Somebody as medical authority? This storyline has brought some good moments of being truly tense or scary again in a way that it hasn't for a long time, but it keeps getting stuck on the why beyond, oh, they're a cult.  But the Saviors also initially presented as a cult and it quickly turned out that they were just a bunch of opportunistic assholes who fell apart when push really came to shove.  So what's the big difference?

Anytime the show spends any significant amount of time on the inner life of a character who isn't one of the few remaining Big Main Characters, you already know it's going to end badly for them.  Saddiq seemed a generically nice enough guy for all that he made his entrance getting Carl killed over his freeing walker souls nonsense and there was probably still plenty more could have done with him as he was one of the few immediately recognizable of the newer crop of characters, but that's that.  The actor did well enough with what they gave him to work with and he always gave Zeke a run for his money for prettiest eyes in the cast.

The imprisoned Whisperer bit player also did nice work in bringing the creepy.  He's a longtime character actor who's seemingly been in everything forever.  While I may be skeptical that 100-pound Carol can repeatedly punch a guy with a ring and do that much damage, (She's always been a character of stealth, not brute strength, show.)  I also have absolutely no patience with coddling Lydia, who's apparently suddenly too fragile to be useful at all to anyone.  She does remember that they're essentially at war and that it's her mommy who killed all those people, including the boy she was mooning after, right?  These people took her in and protected her and fed her.  So what does wanting to help or choosing your own side even mean then, if not to actually be useful as needed so no one else has to die?  She doesn't seem to expect to have to do anything except snit around flipping what always looks like freshly washed hair, which I'm pretty sure she can't pull off if they chuck her out to go back and live with the Whisperers, who all think she's dead anyway.  Sure, it might have been nice if Carol had mentioned to her where they were going, but I'm also kind of enjoying just completely out of fucks to give with making nice with people who cut the heads off of other people Carol too.

Still laughing at Daryl's big shirtless scene that of course was with a dog.  

I think that Dante actually regretted having to kill Siddiq.  He DOES seem to be enjoying his life in the community and he killed the captured Whisperer so his cover wouldn't be blown.  I'm curious to see what happens with the character but I think it would have been more interesting to see more interaction between Dante and Siddiq AFTER Siddiq realized who he was.  Once again, the writers threw away interesting material to go after cheap shit. 

I totally agree that the show has a habit of getting rid of interesting characters.  Siddiq was growing as a man and a leader in the community.  The character had more story to be told, it wasn't his time to go.

On the other hand, Lydia can shuffle off this mortal coil, the sooner the better.  I don't know what this show's fascination is with snotty juveniles who have nothing to offer and drag everything down with them.  Lydia has the potential to be a tragic character but not in the hands of these writers or THAT actor.  There's no indication that Lydia is torn between her love for her mother and her desire to stay where it's clean and NORMAL.  Lydia is a just a selfish, hateful BRAT.  The scenes between her and Carol was like before/after.  Carol is what Lydia is going to grow up to be.  Maybe that's why she took off.

Edited November 18, 2019 by mightysparrow

[icemiser69 11.1k]

2 hours ago, Bad Example said:

Did she, though?  Carol got what she wanted.  Gamma saw Lydia.  And if Lydia isn't willing to do that much for Hilltop/Alexandria/wherever-they-are, she's not choosing herself (tm Kelly Taylor).  She's choosing the Whisperers.  

Lydia was basically saying that she was choosing a third path.  To hell with the protagonists and to hell with the Whisperers.  I don't blame her.  I think she is team Nagen all the way.  Nagen did try to help her without using her.  I won't be shocked if she tries to find him.

I don't think it matters that Gamma saw Lydia.  None of the other Whisperers have the balls to take on Alpha and Beta.   If Gamma confronts Alpha or Beta, she is toast. 

If Alpha and Beta knew that Nagen knows Lydia is alive, he would be toast as well.

Edited November 18, 2019 by icemiser69 · Reason: paragraph under reconstruction, try to avoid the orange cones.

[nodorothyparker 24.8k]

2 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

I think that Dante actually regretted having to kill Siddiq.  He DOES seem to be enjoying his life in the community and he killed the captured Whisperer so his cover wouldn't be blown.  I'm curious to see what happens with the character but I think it would have been more interesting to see more interaction between Dante and Siddiq AFTER Siddiq realized who he was.  Once again, the writers threw away interesting material to go after cheap shit. 

I very much got the impression that Dante hated killing Siddiq too.  Granted, we now know that all of this has been an act so it's hard to trust him too much either way, but it's a much more interesting story if he did genuinely like Siddiq and has come to enjoy the perks of not being filthy and living covered with rotting corpse skin.  I too wish we could have seen the two play with each other a bit after Siddiq realized what he was.  The reveal and sudden heel turn weren't badly done, especially for this show after the last couple of seasons, but but it also felt like the writing was going for the big shocking ending over something that could have been a lot more nuanced.

I do think it matters if Gamma or any of the Whisperers realize that Lydia is alive and that Alpha lied to them all about "sacrificing her" for them.  Clearly, she doesn't believe the communities' lifestyle is so hopelessly doomed if she's content to leave Lydia there with them, and cult leaders don't tend to last long once they're proved to be fallible. As goofy as some of the Aaron-Gamma (Who, I'm sorry, looks like she's wearing a badly fitting rubber beagle mask.) stuff is, it did get across the idea that she was seriously intrigued and tempted by the idea that baked goods and life that resembles anything she remembers pre-ZA can still exist.

[icemiser69 11.1k]

31 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

I also have absolutely no patience with coddling Lydia, who's apparently suddenly too fragile to be useful at all to anyone.  She does remember that they're essentially at war and that it's her mommy who killed all those people, including the boy she was mooning after, right?  These people took her in and protected her and fed her.  So what does wanting to help or choosing your own side even mean then, if not to actually be useful as needed so no one else has to die?  She doesn't seem to expect to have to do anything except snit around flipping what always looks like freshly washed hair, which I'm pretty sure she can't pull off if they chuck her out to go back and live with the Whisperers, who all think she's dead anyway.  Sure, it might have been nice if Carol had mentioned to her where they were going, but I'm also kind of enjoying just completely out of fucks to give with making nice with people who cut the heads off of other people Carol too.

It isn't about coddling her.   Lydia was being used.  She was being used first by her mother and now being used by Carol. 

Lydia is a person, not a pawn.  Carol should have clued Lydia in on everything that was going on so Lydia would know what to expect.   Carol treats the vast majority of people like expendable pawns.

Gabriel should have verbally torn into Carol for bringing that prisoner to Alexandria.  He should have told Carol to take her prisoner and leave.  i know he doesn't have the political power to make that happen.   I would still have liked to have heard him say it.

Edited November 18, 2019 by icemiser69

[AngelaHunter 38.1k]

12 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

I don't know what this show's fascination is with snotty juveniles who have nothing to offer and drag everything down with them. 

I've been thinking for a while that this show is written BY snotty juveniles.

21 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Which makes him nothing more than a gopher.

Pretty much. The few times he's acted without direction it was impulse and he did something stupid.

36 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

'Talking Dead' has become the writers tool to make up for their lack of skill.  They must sit around the writer's room and say, 'yeah, I know it doesn't make any fucking sense, but Chris will explain it all later'.

So I guess those of us who would rather shove our heads into bowls of ice cubes than watch this, much will have to remain nonsensical mysteries.

[icemiser69 11.1k]

I wonder how long Dante had been with the Whisperers, and why didn't Lydia recognize him at Alexandria?   Dante was there when the ten protagonists were beheaded.  I assume he must have been with the Whisperers for quite sometime before that, when Lydia was still with them.

Whisperers can't be wearing their masks all of the time.  If they did, their faces would probably break out.

Why didn't Alexandria interview Dante before taking him in?

Edited November 18, 2019 by icemiser69

[Iguessnot 4.0k]

That was a pretty good episode and the ending caught me by surprise.

I have to say I was to glad have Siddiq gone because I did not like his ptsd story. Now we know the whole thing was shrouded in mystery so he didn't remember being restrained. I was surprised when he gave Rosita so much detail, because they made it seem he didn't really know what happened. I was seriously annoyed that he would be running around endangering everyone due to his blackouts and not confiding in friends. I thought the baby in the windmill was going to lead to something bigger, but I guess not. 

I think they could have portrayed him with survivors guilt and I wouldn't have been as annoyed with him. It's realistic to expect him to question why he lived. Bashing himself for not being able to do something would be stupidly annoying to me, because there was nothing he could do to stop the carnage.

Another thing. The woman said she had made her peace with dying and urges him to take care of himself. Siddiq seemingly agrees with this and decides to take a power nap next to a dying woman with the doors open. So the writers once again dispel with the rules of the apocalypse when it suits them.

When Carol put on the ring preceding the beat down, it looked like a flat wedding band.  That wouldn't cause any damage. Can someone confirm?

[RedDelicious 7.3k]

The first big/obvious clue that Dante is a Whisperer (besides the fact that he's creepy and awkward) was when he leaned in to the captured Whisperer and said "don't try anything" and the captured Whisperer looked Dante in the eyes and said "never".  I didn't take that as sarcasm - I took that as the captured Whisperer saying he'd never betray Alpha and hurt Dante or give up information.

[Nashville 39.7k]

2 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

That reminds me - why would a doctor carry hemlock?

In folk medicine, hemlock did have medicinal uses as well; it was a pretty effective sedative and paralytic.  Just be REEEEEEAAAAALLLLL careful with the dosages, though.... 😉 

[CletusMusashi 18.2k]

I'm not really clear on what Carol was supposed to explain to Lydia ahead of time. 

"OK, so, we're going out to do something about the whisperers, because we both know that they're gonna keep on creeping around our land making trouble. So we're probably gonna go some places where they have a good chance of seeing us. So, just so we're completely clear on this... do you know what will happen if they see you alive?"

"If they what then they what now?" 

"Well, if they see you alive, that means... that they see you alive."

"Oh, wow. Shit, I never thought of that. I guess I'm not very smart, huh?"

"No, bless your heart, you're amazingly stupid. Why don't you just stay home and pick some tomatoes?"

"Those are the little tree nuts that Judith eats, right?"

Edited November 18, 2019 by CletusMusashi

[heisenberg 1.2k]

2 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

It was a pretty decent episode as long as like every other Whisperer-centric episode you don't think too hard about the WHY of it.

Yes.  From the beginning of the season I have been wondering who is Dante, when and how he arrived on the scene.  I have just memorized his name yesterday.  I told myself that he is just another bad character brought on the fly.

While I liked the episode (And the one before), if we had a better following with the new characters it would have been a lot more relevant.  But still, it was quite good.

[AngelaHunter 38.1k]

1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:

Why didn't Alexandria interview Dante before taking him in?

Maybe they did but we have to watch and listen to Hardwick to find out. I could never get that curious.

27 minutes ago, CletusMusashi said:

I'm not really clear on what Carol was supposed to explain to Lydia ahead of time. 

"OK, so, we're going out to do something about the whisperers, because we both know that they're gonna keep on creeping around our land making trouble. So we're probably gonna go some places where they have a good chance of seeing us. So, just so we're completely clear on this... do you know what will happen if they see you alive?"

"If they what then they what now?" 

"Well, if they see you alive, that means... that they see you alive."

"Oh, wow. Shit, I never thought of that. I guess I'm not very smart, huh?"

"No, bless your heart, you're amazingly stupid. Why don't you just stay home and pick some tomatoes?"

"Those are the little tree nuts that Judith eats, right?"

😂

[valandsend 241]

1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:

Why didn't Alexandria interview Dante before taking him in?

Or will we ever see a flashback of how Dante was accepted into Alexandria?

[valandsend 241]

12 hours ago, rmontro said:

All right, I'm really thinking I'm an idiot here.  I had no idea what was going on at the end until I watched some of Talking Dead, which explained it.  Here's what I thought was going on:

Siddiq was going through some screwy stuff and he was obviously a nutcase.  When Dante came to check on him, I was really afraid that Siddiq was going to kill Dante because he was so unstable (Siddiq, that is).  Then Dante said "Open your eyes" which were trigger words for Siddiq, and that set him off his rocker.  So he started eyeing the chair to bash Dante with, but Dante saw it and intervened to stop it.  Dante put the crazed Siddiq in a hold and tried to calm him down with "Close your eyes".  End show.  

Then Talking Dead came on and explained that really, Dante was a Whisperer spy, which is why Siddiq has had reservations about him, and he killed Siddiq!  I didn't even know that Siddiq was dead lol!  Am I really that stupid?

Also, it looked to me like Siddiq had switched the water to "Undrinkable", causing the epidemic.  But now that I know the above, I'm thinking Dante switched the water, and Siddiq just did it trying to recreate what had happened?  I guess?  Is that right?   

As for the rest of the episode, all I have to say is this:  You don't tug on Superman's cape, you don't spit into the wind, you don't pull the mask off that old Lone Ranger, and you don't spit food in Carol's face.

Another idiot here. I thought the same thing. In my defense, I was watching on a small screen.

On The Talking Dead, they pointed out that this clue from an earlier episode: Dante joking about Siddiq staring at his mouth (which would have been the only recognizable part of his face with his Whisperers mask on).

[BravoAddict72 1.3k]

3 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

I wonder how long Dante had been with the Whisperers, and why didn't Lydia recognize him at Alexandria?   Dante was there when the ten protagonists were beheaded.  I assume he must have been with the Whisperers for quite sometime before that, when Lydia was still with them.

Whisperers can't be wearing their masks all of the time.  If they did, their faces would probably break out.

Why didn't Alexandria interview Dante before taking him in?

I was wondering why Lydia didn't know him too. I don't trust her and I still don't get why she thinks she was being used. All Carol did was show she was still alive. How is that using her? Lydia should remember it was partly her fault all those people were killed BY HER MOTHER! I cannot syand her.

[Bad Example 1.8k]

5 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Sure, it might have been nice if Carol had mentioned to her where they were going, but I'm also kind of enjoying just completely out of fucks to give with making nice with people who cut the heads off of other people Carol too.

Yeah, I'm always going to enjoy that Carol.  

If I think too much, yeah, all of her decisions probably aren't great.  But I'm out of fucks with making nice with the Whisperers, too, so I like her.

3 hours ago, Iguessnot said:

Siddiq seemingly agrees with this and decides to take a power nap next to a dying woman with the doors open. So the writers once again dispel with the rules of the apocalypse when it suits them.

It would have been the most glorious thing ever if, just before walking out the door, Siddiq had flipped up the covers to make sure her ankle was still tied to the bed.  I should have known better than to hope for that, but I was waiting.

2 hours ago, heisenberg said:

Yes.  From the beginning of the season I have been wondering who is Dante, when and how he arrived on the scene.  I have just memorized his name yesterday.  I told myself that he is just another bad character brought on the fly.

While I liked the episode (And the one before), if we had a better following with the new characters it would have been a lot more relevant.  But still, it was quite good.

So Dante really did just appear and we just accepted his presence?  I don't always pay attention these days, so I wondered if maybe I had missed an explanation.  Nope?  Great.

They can only get away with that nonsense because there are just too many characters. 

And ugh, Dante is squicky anyway.   Now he's squicky and unhinged.   

[AngelaHunter 38.1k]

1 hour ago, Bad Example said:

It would have been the most glorious thing ever if, just before walking out the door, Siddiq had flipped up the covers to make sure her ankle was still tied to the bed.

I guess no one warned Siddiq what could happen if someone died and was allowed to turn while he slept with the baby in his arms? How would he know that, being a doctor 10 years post-ZA? By the way, the baby as he held her on the chair was one size - pretty big - then outside by the windmill, the "fake" baby was smaller than a newborn. They always do this - did it with Judith - and I can't help noticing. Can't they afford bigger dolls?

1 hour ago, Bad Example said:

So Dante really did just appear and we just accepted his presence?  I don't always pay attention these days, so I wondered if maybe I had missed an explanation.  Nope?  Great.

If you missed it, I did too. Maybe some more backpedaling is in order? Kang? Gimp? 'splain that.

[SharonH58 467]

So Aaron can't be bothered to tell people their water is contaminated?

[Anosmia 103]

9 hours ago, The Mighty Peanut said:

NO! 91??? He's only 28? I thought FOR SURE he was late 30s/early 40s. The gray hair, ffs. OMG being 40 sucks. None of the cute guys are age appropriate. 

Holy crap! I had no idea he was so young! Technically I could be his mother (I turned 17 in 1991). That's wild!

8 hours ago, The Mighty Peanut said:

So, for those of you who have said the episode was unclear and/or it took TTD to explain it...you are not alone. I am going through recaps and it is very apparent that some people think Siddiq did pack the pill bottle with hemlock and even may have possibly been the one to mess up the water supply, albeit unintentionally. 

That had been my initial assumption, simply because Siddiq's PTSD-induced...blackouts?...fugue states?...have been making him do some wonky things. Plus, if I recall, on last week's Talking Dead, a caller asked if maybe Siddiq was the cause of the epidemic.

7 hours ago, mightysparrow said:

I don't think Siddiq was a nutcase but he was definitely suffering from ptsd.  I'm surprised that more people aren't and it's absurd that the writers have neglected this.

Good point! Maybe they feel like it would be too depressing/complicated, but the truth is that there would be a LOT of people suffering from PTSD in a post-apocalyptic world and probably a lot of people suffering from severe depression, not to mention high suicide rates. I've always said that if the shit hits the fan and civilization crumbles, I would likely die by suicide pretty quickly in any post-apocalyptic setting. 

Will the communities have any doctors now that Siddiq is gone? They seem to lose doctors pretty quickly on this show. Doctors should probably have bodyguards surrounding them at all times, as they are really one of the most precious commodities in this world. As these communities grow, they should be training as many people as possible in medicine. Natural medicine/herbology, too, since their stores of drugs must be running low by now, if they haven't already expired.

[rmontro 7.5k]

8 hours ago, The Mighty Peanut said:

it is very apparent that some people think Siddiq did pack the pill bottle with hemlock 

I forgot all about the hemlock.  I thought that with Siddiq suffering from his flashbacks and hallucinations, somewhere in there he ended up packing that hemlock - either accidentally or in a fit of madness.

That kind of laid the groundwork for me to misinterpret the rest of it. 

[FortKnox 525]

Question did anyone else think that Dante was gay and coming on to Siddiq?

I mean just the way he would look at and talk to him gave me that vibe.

[Morrigan2575 35.9k]

6 hours ago, CletusMusashi said:

No, bless your heart, you're amazingly stupid. Why don't you just stay home and pick some tomatoes?"

Seriously my new favorite saying, I learned it about 6 months ago and have been using it ever since...3 words so many meanings 😁

[AngelaHunter 38.1k]

I  just rewatched the last part of this since I got distracted last night.

I must say I never noticed the cute little houseplant in the macrame hanger in the prison window. I guess someone decorated for Negan.

It's astonishing how dumb Aaron has become about so many things but especially letting that little mutt get the drop on him so he had to be rescued. Like, duhhh, Aaron. He's turning into a big nuisance.

In the last scene I don't know why Dante killed Saddiq when it was very clear Siddiq didn't recognize him.

I need answers.

[Iguessnot 4.0k]

22 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

I  just rewatched the last part of this since I got distracted last night.

I must say I never noticed the cute little houseplant in the macrame hanger in the prison window. I guess someone decorated for Negan.

It's astonishing how dumb Aaron has become about so many things but especially letting that little mutt get the drop on him so he had to be rescued. Like, duhhh, Aaron. He's turning into a big nuisance.

In the last scene I don't know why Dante killed Saddiq when it was very clear Siddiq didn't recognize him.

I need answers.

Siddiq did recognize him. The clicking teeth, the repeat of something Dante said and finally remembering that someone was restraining him during the slaughter. Siddiq was trying to reach his axe in order to kill Dante, Dante saw what Siddiq was trying to do, so it was kill or be killed.

[AngelaHunter 38.1k]

20 minutes ago, Iguessnot said:

Siddiq did recognize him. The clicking teeth, the repeat of something Dante said and finally remembering that someone was restraining him during the slaughter.

Yes, but Saddiq only put it together after Dante did the teeth-clucking thing, which D did on purpose, seemingly to make S recognize him and I don't know why. Up until then S had no idea, so if Dante hadn't done that Saddiq wouldn't have known D was one of Them. By the time D got to patting S's shoulder, S seemed to be relaxing and D could have just walked away. Maybe there's something else I'm not picking up on.🤔

[Samwise979 1.6k]

^^^ I think the pat on the shoulder is what brought it all back to him

[Iguessnot 4.0k]

33 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

Yes, but Saddiq only put it together after Dante did the teeth-clucking thing, which D did on purpose, seemingly to make S recognize him and I don't know why. Up until then S had no idea, so if Dante hadn't done that Saddiq wouldn't have known D was one of Them. By the time D got to patting S's shoulder, S seemed to be relaxing and D could have just walked away. Maybe there's something else I'm not picking up on.🤔

I'll have to rewatch the sequence. What episode introduced Dante? Did he do his teeth clicking then?

Actually I'll need to rewatch because I didn't understand the mechanism behind the water revelation. The important thing was he figured out where the illness was coming from so I just handwaved that I didn't understand what he was doing with the levers. Of course smashing things and drowning oneself without giving anyone a heads up is helpful.

[AngelaHunter 38.1k]

^^^ Thanks to both. I just watched it, but I guess I'll watch it again.

[tennisgurl 71.3k]

And here I was, actually enjoying this episode, it was suitably creepy and we had Darryl and Dog being cute, and then...they go and kill off Saddiq and his beautiful eyes. This is why I can’t have nice things.

[GustavMahler 135]

14 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I very much got the impression that Dante hated killing Siddiq too.  Granted, we now know that all of this has been an act so it's hard to trust him too much either way, but it's a much more interesting story if he did genuinely like Siddiq and has come to enjoy the perks of not being filthy and living covered with rotting corpse skin.  I too wish we could have seen the two play with each other a bit after Siddiq realized what he was.  The reveal and sudden heel turn weren't badly done, especially for this show after the last couple of seasons, but but it also felt like the writing was going for the big shocking ending over something that could have been a lot more nuanced.

I do think it matters if Gamma or any of the Whisperers realize that Lydia is alive and that Alpha lied to them all about "sacrificing her" for them.  Clearly, she doesn't believe the communities' lifestyle is so hopelessly doomed if she's content to leave Lydia there with them, and cult leaders don't tend to last long once they're proved to be fallible. As goofy as some of the Aaron-Gamma (Who, I'm sorry, looks like she's wearing a badly fitting rubber beagle mask.) stuff is, it did get across the idea that she was seriously intrigued and tempted by the idea that baked goods and life that resembles anything she remembers pre-ZA can still exist.

I think when you are throes of killing someone you do not have the need to act as raw emotion would take hold. Dante liked Siddiq and was deeply upset at what he needed to do....

[wrlord 112]

Not sure why people don't get it. They actually show him transform from whisperer to Dante.  And when he says "I didn't want this" while killing him.... I don't know how much clearer it can be.

I have to say Alpha bugs the hell out of me. All her silly mannerisms. Way more annoying than Negan ever was.  She reminds me a bit of Vinny D'Onofrio in L&O with her cocked head and quiet, intense talking.  Annoying.

[WonderWuman73 3.0k]

18 hours ago, theredhead77 said:

I found Open Your Eyes to be one of the most terrifying episodes in a while. I had a hard time sleeping after seeing Siddiq's flashbacks to being forced to watch Enid and his friends be murdered. Avi Nash brought his A game (and I feel like a creepy cougar after just discovering he was born in 91) and Samantha Morton really drove home how psychotic Alpha is with her facial expressions and her low, slow talking almost hypnotic voice. Why do these people follow her, live like animals, wear dead skins, sleep on the ground, etc...? She's a cult leader. Why did anyone follow Marshall Applewhite and Bonnie Nettles into the Heaven's Gate cult, or Jim Jones, or David Koresh.
 

Oh God, I thought I was the only one. Glenn getting his head bashed in?? nada..no nightmares..but this episode really stood with me. I had a hard time getting to sleep and thought about all day today. One of the best episodes in a long time.

[OoohMaggie 3.5k]

Two decent episodes in o row, let’s see if they blow the finale with a silly cliffhanger.

Whether the handle is in drinkable or undrinkable, doesn’t the water come out of the same taps? 

[icemiser69 11.1k]

On 11/18/2019 at 10:15 PM, Iguessnot said:

Siddiq did recognize him. The clicking teeth, the repeat of something Dante said and finally remembering that someone was restraining him during the slaughter. Siddiq was trying to reach his axe in order to kill Dante, Dante saw what Siddiq was trying to do, so it was kill or be killed.

On 11/18/2019 at 10:40 PM, AngelaHunter said:

Yes, but Saddiq only put it together after Dante did the teeth-clucking thing, which D did on purpose, seemingly to make S recognize him and I don't know why. Up until then S had no idea, so if Dante hadn't done that Saddiq wouldn't have known D was one of Them. By the time D got to patting S's shoulder, S seemed to be relaxing and D could have just walked away. Maybe there's something else I'm not picking up on.🤔

I think the increase in Saddiq's PTSD episodes were triggered by his subconscious mind recognizing what he couldn't consciously remember or was blocking out.   That Dante was involved in the beheading of the ten protagonists.  Eventually Saddiq would have consciously remembered all on his own.   I think that is what Dante was afraid of, and why he killed him.   Given the way Dante strangled Saddiq, it seems to me that the only way that Dante can save himself is to hang Saddiq's dead body and try and make it look like a suicide.

Now Dante is the only medical person left.  He can roam around the people he needs to and not look suspicious, because so many people are sick.

Edited November 20, 2019 by icemiser69 · Reason: Yikes, PCD isn't PTSD. I don't know why I didn't catch that mistake the first time. That happens alot. I will post something and then go back and read it a day or so later and realize my mistake..