S39.E08: We Made it to the Merge!

[OFDgal]

7 minutes ago, Jel said:

Totally agree. His kind of "if it's freezing cold and I.." or "If I have to get up and I.." UGH.

His attempts to kind of guilt and shame the women who objected to it, arg! Yes Dan, even if you need to get past someone, or even if it's really cold, you still need permission to put your arms all over someone simply because other people do not exist in this world  to meet your needs. Other people actually matter too -- even if you have a wife and kids! and 100 employees (WTF?)  The entitlement of this guy. SMH.  

Yup. I wonder how many women are watching this who have had the same experience with Dan in real life.  I was thinking that if producers had already spoken to him, why was he acting so arrogant at tribal.  I felt so bad for Janet.  Missy and Elizabeth are despicable for using Janet and then letting her be thrown under the bus.  I just don't understand why Dan wasn't removed from the game after it all being on film since the first episode. SMH!

[sadiegirl1999]

1 minute ago, phlebas said:

Well, if she'd played an idol, Dan would have gone out

She’s such a savvy player and I think she thought they were all voting for Dan. 

[dsteele]

Dan: Well, since you're not going to let this go...

No, Dan. We're not. Not for the rest of the game, not during the reunion, and hopefully not any time in the future.  Deal with it.

[Bryce Lynch]

Besides Janet, Karishma and Noura are the only ones left who didn't take the side of the sexual molester.   

Elaine, Tommy and Dean did it more passively and might have plausible deniability and be able to claim they didn't know the accusations were true. 

Aaron made an ass of himself by saying sexual harassment is important to him because he has female family members, and then claimed there was no way harassment could have gone on without him knowing about it. 

Lauren was somewhat involved in the lying and flip flopping about the inappropriate touching, though less directly than Missy and Elizabeth, who showed themselves to be total scum.  

And of course, Feely Dan was the serial sexual harasser.  

So, who is left to root for and who has a chance to win?

I imagine the others will continue to gang up on Janet, perhaps even more so because now she would be an almost sure winner.  Plus, she started fire without flint, so they would need to get her out before Final 4.

Karishma and Noura are terrible players and potential goats.  Elaine and Tommy were relatively unscathed by last night's debacle, and are better players, so they might have a shot.  Dean was also relatively unscathed, but he seems like a moron.

Can Missy, Elizabeth, Lauren and Aaron recover from this?  I think if any of them went to FTC, they wold lose to even Karishma and Noura.

Then there is Feely Dan.   Is he even a viable goat?  Would the jury be so disgusted with anyone who dragged him along as goat that they vote for Dan?  I seriously hope we don't have a situation where he gets brought to FTC as a goat by 2 others, because there would be nobody worthy of winning Sole Survivor.  

If that happened, I would hope that all the jurors would cast blank ballots.   

Edited November 14, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[OFDgal]

3 minutes ago, sadiegirl1999 said:

She’s such a savvy player and I think she thought they were all voting for Dan. 

She had 2 idols and should have played one if she had any doubts at all.  I thought looking at her face that she was going to play one.  I guess the others convinced her they were voting for Dan. 

[DEL901]

All Dan's but sometimes I have to touch them if I am going past them.  Ugn!

There was an article/meme about Keanu Reeves that made it all the way to CNN.com showing photos of him with his arms around women/fans to take photos and while his arms touched them, his hands were bent back at the wrists so as not to come in contact with them.  See, Dan.  Being considerate of someone else's personal space is a thing.

ETA:  I hate Aaron's "I have female family members" rant.  Ugh!  And just because he may not have (I don't believe this for a second) seen anything himself, doesn't mean it isn't true.  Also, you should be against sexual harassment even if you were hatched from an egg and have no female relatives.

It is like when a man abuses his wife and everyone says, "oh, he seemed so nice" or "he didn't touch me" or "he never did anything in front of me".  Of course they didn't.  a) they don't want witnesses, b) they aren't stupid and c) even Jeffrey Dahmer didn't murder every single person he met.

Edited November 14, 2019 by DEL901

[sigmaforce86]

Just want to add one more thing then let this whole episode go............This creates an extremely awkward situation for potential F3.  Dan can't win, in theory Dan can't win.  With that knowledge though he could be taken to F3 as a goat.  But I say "In Theory" because I feel like, right now; with what we've seen and with what we know the tribe has experienced and said, there is the possibility that some of the guys like Aaron actually would vote for Dan.  Maybe he can't win or get enough of them on his side but if you take just this episode and project forward to an F3 that includes Dan it seems like there are contestants who would still potentially vote for Dan.  I have no spoilers and don't think Dan will make it much further but if he did it would be incredibly awkward watching him in final Q&A, the potential blow back for anyone who did vote for him - the whole thing just puts a negative mark on not just Dan but anyone who plays with him or supports him going forward.  Even if they "need" him to further their game it's an incredibly awkward guilt by association scenario.

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, OFDgal said:

She had 2 idols and should have played one if she had any doubts at all.  I thought looking at her face that she was going to play one.  I guess the others convinced her they were voting for Dan. 

If people have to convince you they aren't voting for you, you need to play your idol.  This is 1,000 times more true when you have 2 of them.  

[Jel]

8 minutes ago, OFDgal said:

Yup. I wonder how many women are watching this who have had the same experience with Dan in real life.  I was thinking that if producers had already spoken to him, why was he acting so arrogant at tribal.  I felt so bad for Janet.  Missy and Elizabeth are despicable for using Janet and then letting her be thrown under the bus.  I just don't understand why Dan wasn't removed from the game after it all being on film since the first episode. SMH!

I know I have, but I always said something. And I was always called some variant of bitch, snob or prude for objecting to it.

I also feel a little cynical about the production text explanation all over my screen. Were they truly motivated by their concern for the women (maybe) or were there concerned about future SM complaints about Survivor ignoring and enabling this behavior?

Even Dan's apology was lame. If I upset someone, *I* feel horrible. I don't really give a crap about how you feel about it Dan, the point of the exercise is how the women felt about it. But yes, by all means, make it about you and how you were wronged and misunderstood.

[LadyChatts]

6 minutes ago, sigmaforce86 said:

Just want to add one more thing then let this whole episode go............This creates an extremely awkward situation for potential F3.  Dan can't win, in theory Dan can't win.  With that knowledge though he could be taken to F3 as a goat.  But I say "In Theory" because I feel like, right now; with what we've seen and with what we know the tribe has experienced and said, there is the possibility that some of the guys like Aaron actually would vote for Dan.  Maybe he can't win or get enough of them on his side but if you take just this episode and project forward to an F3 that includes Dan it seems like there are contestants who would still potentially vote for Dan.  I have no spoilers and don't think Dan will make it much further but if he did it would be incredibly awkward watching him in final Q&A, the potential blow back for anyone who did vote for him - the whole thing just puts a negative mark on not just Dan but anyone who plays with him or supports him going forward.  Even if they "need" him to further their game it's an incredibly awkward guilt by association scenario.

The way people were quick to defend Dan and try to victim blame Janet and Kellee, I think even the likes of Elaine, Missy, and Elizabeth would vote Dan.  
 

I was thinking about those 4, and especially Missy/Aaron/Elizabeth and how into their own heads they are about the game.  Karishma compared her former Lairo ladies as being a sorority that made her feel excluded.  A couple of weeks ago, those 3 were more than willing to throw Elaine under the bus to save their own game, until she had an advantage and suddenly they wanted to keep her because it benefited them.  And last nights shit show, they openly said they were using the Dan situation to their advantage and threw Janet under the bus and made her feel ostracized.  Missy and Aaron walked by her in the morning and barely acknowledged her.  Clearly the game is more important to those 3 than their reputations, integrity, and feeling towards their fellow humans.  For that I hope they lose, and I hope it’s all been worth it.  And if they win, they may be worse winners than a guy who was voted off third in his season and didn’t even play 20 days in the game.

Edited November 14, 2019 by LadyChatts

[Dbolt]

9 hours ago, BusyOctober said:

Women like Elizabeth and Missy are the reason why sexual harassment will continue to be an issue for years to come.  Women like them want to present themselves as empowered females who can kick ass and take names of any competitors, regardless of gender.  They talk about being women sticking together, and supporting each other and sisterhood.  

However, women like Missy and Elizabeth are the first to turn on other women if they feel they aren’t “worth the risk”, or if they can work the situation into a personal advantage. 

Women like Elizabeth and Missy are the same type of women who will cry with a coworker in the ladies room who tells them she was raped, yet they will be the first people to slut shame that coworker because she was too drunk, or too flirty when they went out for drinks that one time. 

Women like Missy and Elizabeth are the reason why coworkers, acquaintances, supervisors will always question a report of harassment from other women.  When approached by the accused, these types of women will throw the accuser under the bus by reassuring the accused he never made them feel uncomfortable!  He’s just friendly, or like a big brother, or the office teddy bear! That other woman must be crazy, or jealous, or horny! 

Women like Elizabeth and Missy are the reason why victims don’t speak up or report. They are the reason why most females, from 8 to 80 see, feel and understand that “See Something, Say Something!”, and the promise of no reprisals or negative consequences for saying something is 100% absolute bullshit.

Anyone looking for female role models or examples of what real supportive sisterhood is should look for women like Janet.

I can confirm some of this. I was a supervisors and had multiple women come to me to complain about a coworker. None wanted to confront him and so I went to him and told him that some of the women felt uncomfortable with some of the things he was doing and saying. After our talk, he went to every women in the department and they all assured him that it wasn’t them and they didn’t know what I was talking about. They all decided I was just picking on him. And nothing changed, if anything it got worse. Fortunately I was able to fire him for something else shortly afterwards, but it certainly made me mess enthusiastic about dealing with issues after that it. 

[JudyObscure]

I just watched it a second time and saw several things I hadn't during the first ride:

I'm so glad they combined the two episodes, it would have been so hard to follow the story if we had a week in between to forget who said what.

I think the producers did an okay job.  Sure, they could have removed Dan from the game, but they did talk to him and it was only his inflated view of himself that caused the counselling to fail.  Just as when Kellee talked to him in the beginning he simply didn't take it seriously.  He probably heard the producers saying "We wont tolerate sexual harassment," and he thought, "Right!  Neither do I in my fabulous, powerful job!"   

I love the lack of producer intervention in this show because that's what makes the "social experiment" and our fly on the wall viewpoint so interesting.  This time they let us decide and we saw all the subtle dynamics of Dan's harassment play out.   For me this was the great teaching moment of the season.  I'm just sorry Janet and Kellee had to be hurt in the process.

I noticed Kellee got shafted by first Noura and then Dean on top of the Dan problem.  Lauren to a lesser, more game-play extent.

One reason I rewatched was because I couldn't place Elaine in all this.  I was sorry to find she was right there in it with Elizabeth and Missy, just not as blatantly awful.  I wonder if the editors were downplaying her involvement for a reason.

Karishma was still whining about being on the wrong side of the vote when it was 7 to 5, so she was hardly alone and then acting like Jamal had snatched the tree message from her when he was already three feet ahead of her and clearly looking at it and going for it when she said, "What's that?"  Girl. 

[dsteele]

Although I wanted Dan to be voted out during the second TC, it occurred to me that if he had been, he would have been seated next to Kellee on the jury and at the reunion. It would have been interesting though to see how production dealt with the situation if Kellee had said, "Oh, hell no! Put him on the opposite side or I'm out of here."

[Ms Blue Jay]

10 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

It's hard to feel bad for Dan when he gets to TC and chastizes Jeff for "not letting this go". I'll admit I did feel temporarily bad for him during the Janet, Missy, and Elizabeth segment, when I thought that maybe he genuinely didn't know, but now I feel disgusted for feeling bad for him for even a moment. And I feel stupid for believing it for even a second.

The "you're not gonna let this go?" thing - TWICE - felt like very guilty talk to me.  He knows what he's doing.  There is no doubt.  The producers specifically singled him out.  He knows.

10 hours ago, meatball77 said:

I wonder if the reason they didn't boot Dan is that Kellee wouldn't flat out say, yes I want him gone.  They had no problem kicking out Richard Hatch (he left on his own but you know that they told him to go) but Sue was very vocal in wanting him gone.

The burden shouldn't be on Kellee and Kellee doesn't have to say it.  The producers have cameras and eyes.  Make the decision and just do it.  The whole situation is disgusting.

[Ms Blue Jay]

10 hours ago, Sarahsmile416 said:

As a woman and a rape survivor the whole notion that “well that wasn’t my intent” or “is it really wrong because he’s touchy feely” really just rubs me deep in my gut. 

Yeah.  The language needs to stop from "Well he's just touchy feely" to "He's somebody who crosses people's boundaries time and again."  "No" is a boundary.  You listen the first time.  That's it.

[Ms Blue Jay]

9 hours ago, princelina said:

It looks like this will be an unpopular opinion, but I don't think the producers can just go yanking people from the game.  Certainly they should be made to wear clothes for challenges, but I think to have him removed requires more than others finding him Feely but being willing to put up with it for game purposes.  

Yes, they can.  They can do whatever they want, and have.  They've done it before and can do it again.

9 hours ago, Alice Mudgarden said:

"If we're huddled together in the freezing shelter, or I put my hand on your shoulder to excuse myself and you feel squicked out by it, I'm truly, deeply sorry."

Yeah, I can feel your remorse when minimizing everything you did and everything she felt by it. Truly. Deeply.

Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.  He's so disgusting.  All of his justifications.  He will never stop.  He has endless reasons in his mind for his behaviour.  Endless.

[Ms Blue Jay]

8 hours ago, LadyChatts said:

And on a game related note, since when did Tommy and Lauren get so close to Aaron and company?  

LOL, those two have zero personality and spine and go wherever the numbers are.  Willing to lie, cheat, steal, whatever......  Lauren loves Missy because she's in power right now.  

Which brings me to Dean.  I'm annoyed that Dean didn't protect or save Kellee or tell her to play an idol.  It seems like this all got lost in the shuffle.  Like I realllllllllllly don't like him now.  Is anyone totally cool with what he did?

Edited November 14, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay

[Ms Blue Jay]

8 hours ago, Cotypubby said:

I’ve thought Aaron was a douche from day one and he proved why tonight. He’s got a mother, so you know he cares about women. 🙄

LOL, as so many activists have pointed out since forever, yeahhhhhhhhhhh there's no way a man with a mother (every man in history) could EVER be sexist or have blind spots about sexual harassment, never we've never seen it.  LOL.

[Dbolt]

Does anybody remember how shocking it was and how much hand wringing there was when Johnny FairPlay lies about his Grandmother dying?  Seems so tame now. 

[Boilergal]

I thought this episode showed all aspects of the sexual harassment issue

- Actual harassed person who tries to politely end it, but endures for fear of retribution of loss

- Person who encourages the contact, but claims harassment for personal gain -leading others to not believe the actual victims claim

-Person who tries to speak out to protect others or end a situation and ends up being vilified

-Person who tries to explain their bad behaviours as "innocent misunderstandings", making others see the actual victim as being too sensitive or a troublemaker

[Bryce Lynch]

4 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Yes, they can.  They can do whatever they want, and have.  They've done it before and can do it again.

They could have yanked him.  But, the players had the power to handle this, and I kind of like that production allowed us to find out if the players had any moral character.   

Four of the 8 women (including and Olympian and a former student at the USAF Academy) and 4 of the 5 men (including a 4th grade teacher and a guy who the victim had just saved with an idol) chose to side with the abuser and vote out the victim.

It was ugly and disheartening, but I am glad we got to see how disgusting these people are.  

Edited November 14, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[Ms Blue Jay]

4 hours ago, mythoughtis said:

I think what annoyed me the most about Aarons’  ‘ I would have known’ comment at tribal  was this: 

the assumption that the women should have come to him to solve their problem as if they were children and he was their older brother and protector.   They were under no obligation to tell him.  Women who are sexually harassed in the workplace are supposed to go to their HR department, not random co-workers. 

Actually, going to HR can be totally destructive to the complainant too.  HR is there to protect the company, not the employee.  Don't forget it.

Edited November 14, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay

[Ms Blue Jay]

55 minutes ago, Dbolt said:

I can confirm some of this. I was a supervisors and had multiple women come to me to complain about a coworker. None wanted to confront him and so I went to him and told him that some of the women felt uncomfortable with some of the things he was doing and saying. After our talk, he went to every women in the department and they all assured him that it wasn’t them and they didn’t know what I was talking about. They all decided I was just picking on him. And nothing changed, if anything it got worse. Fortunately I was able to fire him for something else shortly afterwards, but it certainly made me mess enthusiastic about dealing with issues after that it. 

Companies need to be more comfortable firing employees for sexual harassment.  Instead it's just looked at this "he said she said" muddy issue that no one can prove.  So, when women complain about these issues it goes nowhere and can lead to disaster for the complainant.  These people only get fired for "something else" like some notable performance issue.  Sexual harassment should be looked at as a performance issue.

The show is included in this.  Put this in the clause of signing up for the show and get rid of people for it.

Edited November 14, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay

[Jel]

19 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Yeah.  The language needs to stop from "Well he's just touchy feely" to "He's somebody who crosses people's boundaries time and again."  "No" is a boundary.  You listen the first time.  That's it.

I agree 100% that "no" is a boundary.  I think even that is too far though -- he should assume it's no unless he's told otherwise. If he wants to cuddle with some warm body at night that is fine, provided it's okay with the cuddlee. All he had to say was that -- anyone want to cuddle for warmth at night? Or something.  Offer ... don't assume that it's ok because "it's cold". Why is this grown man unclear on this?

[Lady Calypso]

11 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Which brings me to Dean.  I'm annoyed that Dean didn't protect or save Kellee or tell her to play an idol.  It seems like this all got lost in the shuffle.  Like I realllllllllllly don't like him now.  Is anyone totally cool with what he did?

I don't know how I feel about Dean because we don't know what his thoughts were about the whole situation. He's spineless and a coward, yes. He's a bystander and he voted out Kellee. But because I don't know his actual thoughts, I can't seem to pick a side with him.

Tommy was blatantly after Kellee, even with the sexual harassment stuff. He was smirking at Kellee's demise. We all know Aaron's thoughts. But Dean? I have no idea. But Dean didn't know that Kellee had another idol, let alone two. I just wish he had told her that she's in danger. But maybe he thought that Kellee would go anyway and he'd be bitten in the ass. Who knows. 

So yeah, I'm in the middle with Dean. 

[amazingracefan]

12 hours ago, Eolivet said:

They set the women up to turn on each other. They set them up to fail.

Totally untrue from what we saw, I'd need evidence from the shows that production did this.

Edited November 14, 2019 by amazingracefan

[mythoughtis]

16 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Actually, going to HR can be totally destructive to the complainant too.  HR is there to protect the company, not the employee.  Don't forget it.

Agreed. No argument from me.  My point was only that Aaron had no right to think they should have told HIM rather than the producers. The producers were, in this case, the link to HR for the cast.  

Edited November 14, 2019 by mythoughtis

[dizzyd]

So after sleeping on this and being too disgusted yesterday to comment, I’ve come to the following decision. Last season, I quit watching at episode 4 because I had no desire to continue watching my favorite show be ruined by the stupid premise that was EoE. I think this episode did it for me this season. I liked Kellee till she stupidly didn’t play her idol that I was so sure she’d play after finding her 2nd. I liked Elaine for what I perceive is a thus far successful country bumpkin act till she joined the mean girls in the Dan v Janet discussion and I just can’t care to support her now even if she got the benefit of the doubt of not having the facts. I just can’t see how Janet has a chance and if by some miracle she does win, I’ll think it was fixed by TPTB to fit their script to redeem this season. I can’t watch Survivor Bobbie Bones itself so I’m done with this season that I thought started off with so much potential. 😢 Till next time, y’all!

[amazingracefan]

11 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Jeff brings it up once:

Not just once actually if you look at the episode, and he said he'd bring it up every tribal.  If the production don't want him there (and that's been clear all season) let him go.  I think they love any bit of controversy, the whole race debate was brilliant for Probst.

[BusyOctober]

Dan and other people who are accused of inappropriate touching/looks/comments should watch the The Morning Show on Apple+, specifically Ep 3.  The premise of the show is a "beloved" morning show anchor <<cough-Matt Lauer-cough>> is accused of, and summarily fired for his sexual harassment of female staff. 

Spoiler

Played (awesomely) by Steve Carrell, the guy goes on a 'poor me-I'm the victim' tirade about all his behavior; "it was consensual!" and there was nothing inappropriate, and what a witch hunt the "#MeToo" movement has become.  He meets up with a fellow accused producer (Martin Short as a skeevy Weinstein type) to commiserate about how women, social media and the press have screwed them out of "their lives".  As Short's character spills vitriol and lets a few truths slip about his disgusting behavior with women and girls in his trail of victims, Steve Carell's character really HEARS what the scumbag is saying.  It finally dawns on him that this guy is a predator, and (maybe??) has an inkling to look at his own behavior with newly opened eyes.

Instead of running around the jungle looking for affirmations from all the women that he really is a "good guy", Dan should stop deflecting to soothe his own wounded sense of who he is, and LISTEN to what his actual behavior made OTHERS feel.

His lame ass excuses of "cuddling" to share body heat, or touching someone as he tries to get by her is just hand waving mansplaining to make the silly ladies understand what a protective gentleman he is.  OK, sure Dan...than please explain how the fuck rubbing/tickling Missy feet/toes at the merge feast was "gentlemanly".  Or how repeated touching Kellee's face & hair after she repeatedly told you to STOP IT is actually you "protecting" her.  Go ahead...I have plenty of time to wait to hear you out.  Like Jeff, I don't plan on "letting this thing go".

[Bryce Lynch]

4 hours ago, DEL901 said:

Regarding the below quote...Dan said none of the women he works with ever complained.....well, duh....he has power over their careers.   

Exactly. Nobody complained about Harvey Weinstein or a lot of other high powered harassers for decades.   

Also, I am willing to bet some of Dan's clients did complain to him, but he used his box of rationalizations, like "I'm just an old fashioned touchy feely, guy", "I was just trying to get past you.", "I was trying to prevent us freezing to death." etc.  

Edited November 14, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[JudyObscure]

That's exactly what he would do. I thought Dan's worst moments were the several  times he said that if had ever for one second made a woman feel the tiniest bit uncomfortable he would be so incredibly sorry and horrified.  While all the time we're thinking we actually saw Kellee tell you that you had made her feel uncomfortable and you brushed it off and completely  and forgot it by sundown.  He just plain lies -- to others and to himself.  I really hope he loses his big shot job.  There might even be a client or two who will go elsewhere after seeing this.

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 hour ago, DEL901 said:

There was an article/meme about Keanu Reeves that made it all the way to CNN.com showing photos of him with his arms around women/fans to take photos and while his arms touched them, his hands were bent back at the wrists so as not to come in contact with them.  See, Dan.  Being considerate of someone else's personal space is a thing.

Oh, he is so beautiful.

[DEL901]

5 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

That's exactly what he would do. I thought Dan's worst moments were the several  times he said that if had ever for one second made a woman feel the tiniest bit uncomfortable he would be so incredibly sorry and horrified.  While all the time we're thinking we actually saw Kellee tell you that you had made her feel uncomfortable and you brushed it off and completely  and forgot it by sundown.  He just plain lies -- to others and to himself.  I really hope he loses his big shot job.  There might even be a client or two who will go elsewhere after seeing this.

And he knows exactly what to say.  The People article I linked to in the media thread ends with a quote of Dan's tribal council speech and it makes him seem like a stand up guy.  They just didn't mention what a hypocrite he is or the warning he got from production or all the clips we saw of him knowingly being inappropriate.

[peachmangosteen]

4 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I am going with "Kellee subconsciously torpedoed her own game to escape from Dan's harassment."

That's what I'm telling myself. I can't believe she would be that stupid so I choose to believe she just wanted the fuck outta there and away from those shitty people.

What an absolutely heinous episode that ruined pretty much everyone involved, including Jeff and Production. I wish they'd just not air the rest of this season.

At least I have Janet getting the Sia money to look forward to. I hope she gives her a million.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, peachmangosteen said:

At least I have Janet getting the Sia money to look forward to. I hope she gives her a million.

A million and one, so she gets more than the "winner".  

[Special K]

I am starting to believe that the Producers spent so much time on the interaction between Jack and Jamal over the do-rag comment as a kind of counterpoint to the disaster we saw last night.

In the J/J interaction, there was offense given/taken, but also mutual respect and affection exhibited, and a kind of "pause" button on the gameplay while the two dealt with this real world issue.  Not only did Jack offer a sincere apology but he also allowed that he had things to learn, and was open to doing so.

Compare that to Dan's response -- he was in complete denial, acted like a cornered animal, played the victim and projected blame on everyone else last night. 

You have absolutely textbooks examples of how to and how not to deal with issues like these.

[seacliffsal]

Okay, I'm old and I'm here to say that being "touchy and feely" isn't a generational thing.  Growing up we did NOT touch everyone nor were we touched by everyone.  Every time someone uses that to excuse bad behavior, that's exactly what it is-an excuse for bad behavior!  Dan has gotten too many people to believe him when he says it's just the way he was raised and it's how everyone was.  It isn't and it wasn't.  However, in my opinion, even worse than trying to excuse one's own behavior is accusing one of such behavior as a way to advance one's own position.  As others have noted, false accusations can ruin one's reputation and life.  Elizabeth being willing to do that if it helped her is as reprehensible in my opinion as Dan's actions.  I believe that Dan is TOTALLY inappropriate in touching young women.  I noticed that a few of the survivors said that he hadn't touched them in that way; well, I think that just proves that he is sexually touching and harassing some of the survivors.  If he truly were just a "touchy" person, he would be touching ALL of them, not just the younger women.  I also think Dan is used to being in charge as demonstrated by his trying to get Jeff to stop his line of questioning during TC.

I would hope that I would be like Janet and try to do the right thing.  However, Janet experienced what often happens when one tries to do the right thing and that is become the accused.  I have had similar experiences in terms of speaking up for others who feel defeated or disheartened and I have become the target instead.  Fortunately, I'm old and cranky, so I can take it.  Janet, however, did appear totally defeated and I am concerned for her for her remaining time on the show.  

On another note, I could not believe that Kelley did not play one of her idols.  I was ready for it, I was happily anticipating it, and then...nope, she was voted out.  I do like it though when various survivors think they are awesome at strategy and just strategize themselves out of the game.

This show always surprises me.

[Ms Blue Jay]

I hate putting any blame, even 1% blame on Kellee for Dan still being on the game.

So to completely move away from that, because that's not what I'm doing.....

Damn, Kellee!!  Two idols!  How long did you want to hold onto them for?  Damn!  I wish she would have played one.

Then there's Janet, it would have been an AMAZING move if Janet would have played hers for Jamal.  I was praying and praying and praying.  But I know there was a slim chance.  And then she actually played it!  But then she played it for herself.  

Damn, there was just so much potential for good stuff happening this episode and it all went awry.  

[ProfCrash]

2 hours ago, OFDgal said:

Yup. I wonder how many women are watching this who have had the same experience with Dan in real life.  I was thinking that if producers had already spoken to him, why was he acting so arrogant at tribal.  I felt so bad for Janet.  Missy and Elizabeth are despicable for using Janet and then letting her be thrown under the bus.  I just don't understand why Dan wasn't removed from the game after it all being on film since the first episode. SMH!

 I don't get why he wasn't removed. And I hope to god this breaks the dam and we start hearing from women about his touchy feely ways.

2 hours ago, sadiegirl1999 said:

She’s such a savvy player and I think she thought they were all voting for Dan. 

Lauren, the Nanny?, snowed her. She played it tight and told Kellee that all was well. Kellee was in a bad head space because she was trying to deal with the entire situation and thought that the other women had her back. And then Lauren pulled that bullshit "Dan is fine, he never did anything to me so I don't think he did anything to Kellee" crap. Fuck her.

1 hour ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Yeah.  The language needs to stop from "Well he's just touchy feely" to "He's somebody who crosses people's boundaries time and again."  "No" is a boundary.  You listen the first time.  That's it.

When someone says stop, you stop. I fail to understand why this is hard for some people to get.

[Ms Blue Jay]

6 minutes ago, seacliffsal said:

Okay, I'm old and I'm here to say that being "touchy and feely" isn't a generational thing.  Growing up we did NOT touch everyone nor were we touched by everyone.  Every time someone uses that to excuse bad behavior, that's exactly what it is-an excuse for bad behavior! 

I totally agree.........  I'm an (older) Millennial and I worked in an office for 3 years where most of the employees were male Gen X and Boomers.  I was in my 20s.  Nobody ever did that at work - EVER.   In fact, the most harassment/issues with boundaries I've had have been with men my own age.  It's not a generational thing - at ALL.  Dan is Gen X.  How is Gen X a touchy feely generation.  LOL.  

Edited November 14, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay

[peachmangosteen]

5 minutes ago, seacliffsal said:

I would hope that I would be like Janet and try to do the right thing. 

Right. But damned if I don't think I would've just said pretty much nothing at all. Basically I'm saying I definitely would have been a coward lol. Which is part of why I'm just so impressed with Janet. What a fucking strong ass person.

5 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Damn, there was just so much potential for good stuff happening this episode and it all went awry.  

Ugh, I know. The fact that so much awesome stuff could have happened on top of the fact that this ep just made everyone look like truly disgusting people is just making me so, so sad. Like, I literally couldn't sleep last night because of this ep. 

[amazingracefan]

20 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Oh, he is so beautiful.

Someone in that kind of famous position would obviously get advice about how to meet fans.  Definitely not Survivor related.

6 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Exactly. Nobody complained about Harvey Weinstein or a lot of other high powered harassers for decades.   

Also, I am willing to bet some of Dan's clients did complain to him, but he used his box of rationalizations, like "I'm just an old fashioned touchy feely, guy", "I was just trying to get past you.", "I was trying to prevent us freezing to death." etc.  

I don't really like speculating about contestants lives outside the show, but the last two points such as freezing to death are more Survivor situation related, away on an island with none of your normal comforts in a game with strangers on tv isn't someone's outside life.  Excuse of touchy feely person could be the case, but at the same time that isn't the excuse of a rapist as we read here.  The production could have stopped anything right at the start, would have helped everyone.

[DEL901]

6 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

 I don't get why he wasn't removed. And I hope to god this breaks the dam and we start hearing from women about his touchy feely ways.

Lauren, the Nanny?, snowed her. She played it tight and told Kellee that all was well. Kellee was in a bad head space because she was trying to deal with the entire situation and thought that the other women had her back. And then Lauren pulled that bullshit "Dan is fine, he never did anything to me so I don't think he did anything to Kellee" crap. Fuck her.

When someone says stop, you stop. I fail to understand why this is hard for some people to get.

Wonderful short video from Britain about consent using Tea Drinking as an analogy.

And to be more on target... it is going to be hard for them to salvage this season.  So many contestants have gone beyond unlikable to be truly reprehensible people.   

And Kellee, Kellee, Kellee.   Dean is weak.  Noura erratic.  But you could have saved yourself with your two idols.  

Edited November 14, 2019 by DEL901

[peachmangosteen]

14 minutes ago, amazingracefan said:

The production could have stopped anything right at the start, would have helped everyone.

Yes. At the end of the day, as much as pretty much all the players suck, Production (and society/the system, as @Eolivet has been saying, in general) is the real villain in this.

[Special K]

2 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Dan is Gen X.  How is Gen X a touchy feely generation.  LOL.  

Yes.  Hugging everyone everywhere was not how we were raised as Gen-xers.  Like today, HS kids hug their friends EVERY DAY, repeatedly.  Not saying that's bad, but we did not do that in the 70s/80s.  We hugged our friends at graduation, after a winning game, etc.

When I entered the workforce, it was strictly handshake only in meetings, etc.  Then over the next 20 years, somehow it morphed into business colleagues kissing each other on the cheek and hugging when greeting.  And now with Sexual Harassment training, most of that thankfully has stopped.

It is not a Gen-X thing, it's a Dan thing.  Also, I don't think his defense the he comes from the industry that birthed #metoo landed the way he wanted it to.

[ProfCrash]

I am a touchy person but I work with some people who are very sensitive to touch. I could tell from their reaction the first time i squeezed a shoulder walking by. I apologized and told them I wouldn't do it again. It wasn't hard to figure out.

I asked my 7 year old this morning what you do when someone says stop and he said you stop. His execution isn't always the best, he is 7, but he understands the concept. 99% of the time he stop when I ask him to stop whatever activity it is that is loud, annoying, or grating (mouth noises, banging something around that type of thing.) This isn't hard. Kellee told Dan to stop and he didn't. Grown men should know that you don't stroke another persons legs.

[lostmydamnmind]

I can only imagine Kelle didn't play either idol because WTF wouldn't everyone else vote out a guy that multiple women accused of inappropriately touching them? As cynical as I may be, and having watched most seasons of this show, I'd have probably assumed the same.

[Ms Blue Jay]

8 minutes ago, lostmydamnmind said:

I can only imagine Kelle didn't play either idol because WTF wouldn't everyone else vote out a guy that multiple women accused of inappropriately touching them? As cynical as I may be, and having watched most seasons of this show, I'd have probably assumed the same.

I agree, she was absolutely shocked.  She was blindsided.  People lied to her and she believed it.  

[amazingracefan]

8 minutes ago, lostmydamnmind said:

I can only imagine Kelle didn't play either idol because WTF wouldn't everyone else vote out a guy that multiple women accused of inappropriately touching them? As cynical as I may be, and having watched most seasons of this show, I'd have probably assumed the same.

She wasn't voting him out.  If you are making a big move and have two idols it likely makes sense to play one of them just in case your plan has backfired.