S08.E04: Present Tense

[UNOSEZ]

1 hour ago, Josh371982 said:

Turning her back to a killer after only knocking him down helped with that. 

To save Mia from a fight she was losing after... After Mia pouted and grimaced at the team until they ambushed the deathstrokes even tho everyone else told hwrbit was a bad idea.. Basically Zoe got fridge for Mia's ladypain.. Except this is worse because there really isn't a connection between Zoe and Mia they're just getting to be a team.. It wasn't even so much that they listened to Mia's bad plan as they knew her lone wolf self woulda gone after the deathstrokes alone and gotten killed... I'm sure she'll mellow out and be better.. But right now.. From her intro last year to last night I've not seen anything about the character worth caring about besides who her parents are... She hasn't shown a special skill.. She's not a Uber fighter like Oliver.. She's not a meta.. She's got no experience.. Yet she's salty with everyone she meets including a load of ppl who are better at this vigilante thing... I forget her name but the other young archer that Oliver was training who betrayed him... Mia as of now hasn't shown anything to separate her from that girl.. Other than parentage.... So right now I'm not seeing how she carries a show

[tv echo]

Best episode of this season so far, and great acting all around...

I loved all the family drama and heart-to-heart conversations - Oliver and Mia, Oliver and William, Diggle and Connor, Diggle and Rene, etc.

The reason for not contacting Felicity was pretty lame. The failure to have Oliver even ask his kids about Felicity in the future is even lamer.

It's nice to know that the friends-and-family cell phone plan that Mia, Connor and William share still works 20 years in the past because they were still able to call each other in 2019.

Why is Oliver wearing a mask in the field? All of Star City knows his real identity now.

In 801, Oliver saves E2 Laurel from being wiped out like the rest of Earth-2 by pushing her through the portal. In 802, E2 Laurel blames Oliver for the destruction of her world. In 804, E2 Laurel tells Mia that she "would never tell anyone to listen to Oliver Queen," that she's "not a very big fan" of him and that Oliver is "kind of a dick." Ugh.

That ending was the weakest cliffhanger ever. You can pretty much predict what's going to happen - E2 Laurel will be tempted to accept the Monitor's offer to get back Earth-2 by betraying Oliver, but she'll ultimately make the heroic, unselfish decision not to betray him and that'll be the button on her redemption arc. Or, alternatively, she'll betray Oliver but it'll be for the greater good, so Oliver will quickly forgive her. Either way, who really cares.

ETA: The promo pics for this episode were misleading because they included a pic of the Monitor with Oliver - which didn't happen.

Edited November 6, 2019 by tv echo

[Jediknight]

23 minutes ago, tv echo said:

In 801, Oliver saves E2 Laurel from being wiped out like the rest of Earth-2 by pushing her through the portal. In 802, E2 Laurel blames Oliver for the destruction of her world. In 804, E2 Laurel tells Mia that she "would never tell anyone to listen to Oliver Queen," that she's "not a very big fan" of him and that Oliver is "kind of a dick." Ugh.

Laurel being mad at Oliver can be explained by Survivor's Guilt.  Her old world is destroyed, but she's still alive thanks to Oliver.  Grief isn't always rational.  As for her talking to Mia, I took it as she was telling Mia exactly what she wanted to hear, because her listening to one member of the group, is better than her refusing to listen to any of them.  Laurel gets on her good side, and can get her to loosen up and let go of some of the rage she's feeling.

Got to say great writing this episode.  William was the only one that could interact perfectly with the Current Team Arrow with no drama, and it made perfect sense, he was the only one with a relationship with them.  Yeah, it was when he was a kid, but he knew them, he spent time with them, they helped to keep him safe.  And while he was an adult, the Current Team Arrow knew him, so they'd be able to interact with him without much of a problem.  Nobody else had a relationship with the other.  Connor went right into calling Diggle, "Dad".  This Diggle doesn't even know him yet.

Edited November 6, 2019 by Jediknight

[Velocity23]

8 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

Laurel being mad at Oliver can be explained by Survivor's Guilt.  Her old world is destroyed, but she's still alive thanks to Oliver.  Grief isn't always rational.  As for her talking to Mia, I took it as she was telling Mia exactly what she wanted to hear, because her listening to one member of the group, is better than her refusing to listen to any of them.  Laurel gets on her good side, and can get her to loosen up and let go of some of the rage she's feeling.

But its BS. You really going to shit on someones father, especially when you tried to murder his entire family not so long ago. He can be a dick, but she is the last person who has any right to judge him. 

[insomniadreams88]

30 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

But its BS. You really going to shit on someones father, especially when you tried to murder his entire family not so long ago. He can be a dick, but she is the last person who has any right to judge him. 

Yep. She could have even just said, “listen, I’m not the biggest fan of your father. We’ll probably never agree on X/get along/etc.” There’s a way to do that politely, especially to his future daughter that he didn’t get to raise (does she know that? I haven’t paid attention to what Laurel does/doesn’t know about this mission).

[apinknightmare]

11 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

Because his ex and her hair flipping non fighting self got all of them to join in on her stupid plan

Gonna comment because I just rewatched the episode. Mia didn't flip her hair - the fletching on the arrow caught it as she released it. 

[CabotCove]

Quote

But overall, one of those rare episodes where they used EVERYONE in the cast, like everyone got good amount of screentime...it isn't that hard writers. 

Definitely agree on that. For the most I thought this was a great episode, just had a few flaws. But I am enjoying the season so far,  it has more good parts than not. 

Quote

I don't see anything wrong with him regarding Felicity as a mentor.  But to call her "Mom", despite the minimal interactions between the two?  Seriously?  I realize that this show tends to worship Felicity, but this is just going too far.

And this is one of those bad parts of an otherwise good season, Im referring to. Aspects of storytelling dishonest and character worshiping.   It is what it is at this point, the show is in its final chapter, nothing can change now.  I hope they are not going to carry over such writing habits to their next project (s).

The Crisis storyline has really breathed some new life into the show, I doubt I would still be watching if it wasnt for that. 

Edited November 7, 2019 by CabotCove

[CabotCove]

double

Edited November 7, 2019 by CabotCove

[lemotomato]

31 minutes ago, CabotCove said:

And this is one of those bad parts of an otherwise good season, Im referring to. Aspects of storytelling dishonest and character worshiping.   It is what it is at this point, the show is in its final chapter, nothing can change now.  I hope they are not going to carry over such writing habits to their next project (s).

Oh yeah, I really hope the writers stop being dishonest about BS's cold blooded murdering, villain-aiding past and don't let her keep walking around acting like she's morally superior and putting down the characters who have spent 7 years sacrificing and doing good. 

Edited November 7, 2019 by lemotomato

[apinknightmare]

28 minutes ago, CabotCove said:

And this is one of those bad parts of an otherwise good season, Im referring to. Aspects of storytelling dishonest and character worshiping.   It is what it is at this point, the show is in its final chapter, nothing can change now.  I hope they are not going to carry over such writing habits to their next project (s).

Arrow has showcased so many awful storytelling decisions, writing inconsistencies and has had characters twist themselves into knots to make plots work that complaining about a character calling someone Mom who actually did serve as a mother figure in his life is wild to me. 

[CabotCove]

Well, we all have our different perspectives and opinions on what we call awful storytelling decisions, those I referred to are mine among a long list of others, but I won't go into detail here. Who gets to decide what another  should see as good or awful storytelling.

So what I have a problem with how a certain aspect of the show is written, Its not any different that those who are picking apart the dick line by Siren (thats on my list too). Even if I felt differently on this or anything else, it wouldn't matter to me that's its being picked apart.. Why does it always have to end up being Character X Vs Character Y. No character is all perfect and they are all fair game to be called out to me. 

People are allowed to feel how they feel about certain aspects of the show. We are different human beings. Anyway I dont want to dwell on this, there is too much that was good to focus on the few bad bits.

Edited November 7, 2019 by CabotCove

[lemotomato]

I love that the kids are in the present and I really hope that we get as many Oliver-Mia-William scenes as possible before they get sent back to the future. I'd rather see 3 more episodes of them sitting around eating Monte Cristo waffles instead of anything to do with NTA, BS, or special returning guest star #52.

Oh, and I loved seeing William sitting in his mom's chair and taking over his mom's role as Overwatch, as well as making jokes to lighten the mood and giving pep talks to Oliver, just like his mom used to do. 

[apinknightmare]

Since a lot of this thread has been conversation about the "Mom" topic, I'll just say that with the gross way this show handled the biological parenting > loving non-biological parenting in the Thea and Robert/Malcolm storyline, and since Malcolm was given so much leeway because of his sperm donorship, I personally think it's nice that the show is acknowledging through William that a non-biological relationship can be as important as a biological one. 

Felicity helped William with his homework, with his science projects. They baked together, she helped him understand his father, helped ease him into his new life in Star City. She put his wellbeing over her own happiness before she and Oliver were even back together, she was his sole parent while Oliver was in prison. Even once Oliver was out, she was the one who greeted him home from school, and mostly dealt with his teen angst. She kept track of him even when she wasn't present in his life, and made sure to help him follow his dreams. That's all Mom stuff to me, and I'm glad they're acknowledging that (even if that acknowledgement doesn't work for everyone). Same goes for the Connor/Diggle storyline, even though I haven’t seen anyone questioning Connor calling Diggle Dad (I’ll go ahead and chalk that up to there being an actual legal adoption?). 

Edited November 7, 2019 by apinknightmare

[thuganomics85]

Oh, hey, Curtis is back.  Yay?  Sorry, I just really don't care for this character anymore.  And to think I actually kind of liked him when he first appeared...

Other than that, a pretty good episode.  Inserting the future Team Arrow into the present has definitely shaken things up in a good way, and have allowed things to become very interesting.  Not surprised that Mia was more resistant at first compared to William, since from her perspective, Oliver abandoned her and Felicity before she ever got a chance to know him, but I'm still glad she finally came around, because her being a jerk to him would have gotten tiring at this point.  Granted, I'm just tired of everyone piling on Oliver at this point.  It's like he's at fault for every bad thing that happens in the D.C. Universe (when it is obvious that the true culprit is Barry and his time-traveling!  Kidding!)

Whatever annoyances and issues I have with Rene, I did feel for him when he found out what happened to Zoey (not to mention finding how that he'll be corrupted once he become mayor.)  Wouldn't wish that on anyone.  It was even nice seeing Dinah being supportive.  Hey, the show managed to make me not be annoyed with those two.  Yay!

Diggle's interactions with Conner were well-done.  Glad they're letting David Ramsey gets some big moments going out, because he's always been excellent (well, outside of a few times in the latter seasons where it felt like he was phoning it in, but I really didn't blame him, honestly.)

Of all the stuff that has happened on this show, William growing up to consider Felicity his mom really doesn't seem that odd to me.  I'm sure he still remembers and considers Samantha his mom too, but Felicity was apart of his life during his teens and helped raised him, so I can see why he would think that way.  I just don't find that weird at all.  Certainly no stranger then everyone apparently being cool with the Black Siren now, despite her past actions.

As I always find myself saying whenever he pops up: Fuck you, Monitor!

[RS3]

I haven't mentioned this in my previous comment but reading online reactions on other platforms and even this one made me go back to the last scene... A lot of people seem convinced

Spoiler

this was the anti-monitor in disguise, or even that it's been the anti-monitor all along, and I guess it's a possibility but I never got that vibe.

Plus, I remember an interview from the actor where he kind of said that we would come to understand his demands even if they seemed off. So I doubt it's that kind of plot twist. I still find the cliffhanger bad because the consequence will be meh. I believe it's a test and BS will sacrifice her earth for the greater good proving she's not selfish therefore she must be redeemed. Same old, same old. Cue spinoff.

Spoiler

Also, if it were the anti-monitor, cheapest plot twist eveeeerrrr!

On 11/5/2019 at 11:07 PM, Primal Slayer said:

I just dont get why the writers always have to pit these two against each other. E1 Laurel/Oliver got to a GREAT place in S4 and were working together really well, everything was there but since it was going so good they had to kill her off...and now E2 Laurel has to be pit against Oliver after the constant building blocks the two have gone through with one another since her introduction in S5. 

I'd argue they rebuild a friendship because they were killing her off, not the other way around. It wasn't a last-minute decision, Stephen knew since the premiere. Oliver had to care again for that extra dose of manpain when she died. The writers and the producers may just not be interested in having them interact beyond snarky eye-rolls. After the one scene they had in premiere where she was smiling at his compliment and he looked stone cold, I personally think it's for the best.

[Chaser]

43 minutes ago, RS3 said:

The writers and the producers may just not be interested in having them interact beyond snarky eye-rolls. After the one scene they had in premiere where she was smiling at his compliment and he looked stone cold, I personally think it's for the best.

I’m convinced that scene in the premiere was all KC. Siren hasn’t cared about Oliver’s opinion or approval. I feel a more Siren appropriate response would have been a sarcastic ‘thank you! I now feel complete!’. 

If they have Siren betray Oliver, she officially one ups Rene.

Unrelated, but Oliver is really looking haggard right now. Really jumped into Dad mode.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Chaser

[insomniadreams88]

2 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I’m convinced that scene in the premiere was all KC. Siren hasn’t cared about Oliver’s opinion or approval. I feel a more Siren appropriate response would have been a sarcastic ‘thank you! I now feel complete!’. 

If they have Siren betray Oliver, she officially one ups Rene.

Yeah, I think your version would especially be more fitting given what she says to Mia about Oliver in this episode. 

I honestly doubt she’s going to betray Oliver. Mainly because doing so would probably mean bringing up her past villainous actions and we all know the show is trying to ignore them completely. 

[apinknightmare]

I'm not sure if she'll betray him or not. 

On the one hand I think no, because there aren't many episodes left until Crisis, and that seems like a big step back for someone who's going to a spin-off as (presumably) a hero. And unless the spin-off takes place on E-2, it seems weird that she would not be there, unless it winds up getting destroyed again during Crisis.

On the other hand, this betrayal could be seen as a noble thing depending on what it is she's required to do, since it would be bringing back a whole earth's full of people. Plus, we haven't been given an idea of what Oliver's purpose really is since The Monitor seems to be basically letting him do whatever he wants, so...what specifically at this point in time could be a betrayal? Tipping people in Russia off to what he's going there to get?

[Chaser]

I think she’s going to agree to the betrayal and then back out when she realizes the consequences. She’ll get a speech about how she’s really really a hero now cause ‘sacrifice‘ and I will just be bored.

It would be vastly more interesting if Siren starts actively trying to undermine Oliver’s mission. 

[apinknightmare]

10 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I think she’s going to agree to the betrayal and then back out when she realizes the consequences. She’ll get a speech about how she’s really really a hero now cause ‘sacrifice‘ and I will just be bored.

Yeah, I can see that happening. 

[RS3]

20 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

On the other hand, this betrayal could be seen as a noble thing depending on what it is she's required to do, since it would be bringing back a whole earth's full of people. Plus, we haven't been given an idea of what Oliver's purpose really is since The Monitor seems to be basically letting him do whatever he wants, so...what specifically at this point in time could be a betrayal? Tipping people in Russia off to what he's going there to get?

Totally true, we don't know what he asked her to do yet. But if someone truly sabotages Oliver's mission, wouldn't it mean that every other earth would be destroyed AKA the multiverse? It's like how Felicity chose to save millions of people instead of Havenrock. If BS chooses earth 2 instead of every other one, it would be for selfish reasons. In any case, that's how they framed the scene. 

Unless the monitor lied to Oliver from the beginning and BS was the true paragon all along (ha), I think the monitor is manipulating her. 

Spoiler

Lance's multi-episode appearance does make me wonder... It could be a hallucination, a flashback OR it could be his e2 counterpart getting a birthday cake for his daughter in the reset episode. In that case, if someone on or off the show ever breathes the word redemption again LOL. 

[apinknightmare]

6 minutes ago, RS3 said:

Totally true, we don't know what he asked her to do yet. But if someone truly sabotages Oliver's mission, wouldn't it mean that every other earth would be destroyed AKA the multiverse?

Well, that's my point. We don't know what "betraying" him would mean because we don't really know what his mission is, do we? It's just sort of a general "save the multiverse" thing. The Monitor gave Oliver two tasks and after that he's just been kinda doing what he wants. 

Is the Monitor just letting Oliver follow his own path to get to the conclusion The Monitor wants him to have so he has something to do until the crossover? Is a "betrayal" part of getting him to that place? I don't know!

[tv echo]

I don't know why, but I can't stop watching this opening scene (based on this episode, Mia is 21, William is 34, Connor is 27, and JJ is 26)...

Arrow - 8x04 - Oliver, William and Mia Scenes Part 1 - Opening ("Those are my kids!")
O&F   Nov. 6, 2019

Edited November 7, 2019 by tv echo

[tennisgurl]

I think that Laurel will betray Oliver...but then feel back and try to go back on it at the last minute, complete with everyone telling her what a hero she is now. I mean, they wont want her to do anything really bad if they want her in that spin-off. 

[statsgirl]

What I liked more about this episode was all the feels and interactions.  I get bored during the fight scenes so this was great for me.  William coming out to Oliver was great and I'm glad Ben Lewis asked the writers to put it in. But the whole writing of all the relationships, from Oliver reacting to William (a new Felicity) and Mia (the new Oliver and kind of a dick too) with the experience and emotional knowledge of 8 seasons as GA is so well handled.

So were Diggle and Connor reacting to each other.  I was even glad to see Curtis there. He's a lot less annoying after months away and not fighting for Felicity's space in the series.  I liked his scenes with William; Will seemed to apprecaite a good role model, a gay man with a successful relationship as well as career.

No way do I believe that the Canary Network was so good as to make ARGUS look like a kindergarten. Nice lie there, Connor. Also, since you gave Dinah the idea, it's your responsibility that the Canary Network even exists.

Felicity spent eight months in hiding with William, being his only parent and risking her life to save his. She's earned the right to have him call her 'Mom'.  More practically, William has been with Mia for nearly a year and referring to Felicity as Mom.  Of course he's going to call her Mom when talking to Oliver and the rest of the Team.  IIRC, he started last season.

On 11/6/2019 at 4:55 PM, UNOSEZ said:

 Basically Zoe got fridge for Mia's ladypain..

I strongly suspect that Zoe got fridged for Dinah and Laurel and the spin-off.

Spoiler

If Zoe is there as the Black Canary, why would they need Dinah and Laurel in it?

But story-wise, it was for all of NTA's pain so that they would go after Deathstroke in 2019 and reveal the future to Team Arrow. I'm expecting Zoe to be miraculously restored to the living as the timeline gets changed now that Rene knows what's going on and Grant Wilson is in jail.

Quote

That ending was the weakest cliffhanger ever. You can pretty much predict what's going to happen - E2 Laurel will be tempted to accept the Monitor's offer to get back Earth-2 by betraying Oliver, but she'll ultimately make the heroic, unselfish decision not to betray him and that'll be the button on her redemption arc. Or, alternatively, she'll betray Oliver but it'll be for the greater good, so Oliver will quickly forgive her. Either way, who really cares.

Yep. Nothing is going to change Laurel's sainthood now. Hopefully they won't take the snark away at least.

[KenyaJ]

11 hours ago, Chaser said:

I’m convinced that scene in the premiere was all KC. Siren hasn’t cared about Oliver’s opinion or approval. I feel a more Siren appropriate response would have been a sarcastic ‘thank you! I now feel complete!’. 

Based on her excited tweet that night about that scene and her liking that tweet saying we should’ve had Oliver and Laurel all along, yes, I’d say that was more KC than BS. 

18 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

Same goes for the Connor/Diggle storyline, even though I haven’t seen anyone questioning Connor calling Diggle Dad (I’ll go ahead and chalk that up to there being an actual legal adoption?). 

Here and on Twitter, I haven’t seen a single person who’s complained about William calling Felicity “Mom” also complain about Connor calling Diggle and Lyla “Mom and Dad” — even though, like William, he had a mother and a father before Diggle and Lyla adopted him. And since we’ve never seen a single moment of Diggle and Lyla parenting him and we know he has complicated feelings about their parental abilities (as expressed in 716 and 803), it’s safe to say that no, it’s not the adoption that explains the double standard. 

[apinknightmare]

38 minutes ago, KenyaJ said:

it’s not the adoption that explains the double standard. 

Oh, I know - that was an attempt at sarcasm that failed. It was really late and I was in the middle of a bout of insomnia when I wrote it, haha.

Edited November 8, 2019 by apinknightmare

[GHScorpiosRule]

On 11/7/2019 at 8:02 AM, RS3 said:

I haven't mentioned this in my previous comment but reading online reactions on other platforms and even this one made me go back to the last scene... A lot of people seem convinced

  Reveal spoiler

this was the anti-monitor in disguise, or even that it's been the anti-monitor all along, and I guess it's a possibility but I never got that vibe.

That was me, speculating about the Monitor. Because all this ASSHOLE'S done since last season is tell Oliver he has to die, that (spoilering just in case)

Barry has to die in order for the universe to survive

; then he destroys Earth Two as a "lesson" to Oliver. And now he turns right back around and tells Black Siren he can restore her Earth--all she has to do is betray Oliver.

Then there was that scroll or whatever that Oliver, Thea and Talia found last week about him. So until it's proven otherwise, I'm sticking to my theory.

Edited November 8, 2019 by GHScorpiosRule

[Cthulhudrew]

Is it going to turn out that some of these appearances by the Monitor will

Spoiler

actually be the Anti-Monitor in disguise?

Because there seem to be several conflicting pursuits he's engaging in.

[janeta]

Still trying to finish watching this ep (thanks, comcrap 🙄😒) but I just wanted to say that Ben Lewis did a dead on Stephen Amell impression in that couch scene. 
 

[Quark]

I thought this episode was rather underwhelming. The reaction to the future kids was bizarre in some instances.

I think the worst part of it was Oliver's lack of reaction to future Star City being worse than it is today. Saving Star City has been driving Oliver for eight years, but there was no sense from Oliver that he reacted to the news in any way.

[Simba122504]

Why didn’t Diggle ask about Connor’s mother? Given he just recused them. Wouldn’t they want to save her? Unless she dies of cancer or something. But shouldn’t her future be revealed? Why Connor had to come to live with them. The late Bronze Tiger would not appreciate this. 🤨 Oliver should have laughed at the Mia’s line. Girl, Oliver fought the best of the best, including Nyssa’s own daddy, the demon himself, Ra’s Al Ghul. The LoA existed before you ever existed. Before both Ra’s daughter existed.  And Mia is supposed to be the new GA? She has so many issues as a character. Whatever you say, show. 

[Velocity23]

53 minutes ago, Simba122504 said:

Why didn’t Diggle ask about Connor’s mother? Given he just recused them. Wouldn’t they want to save her? Unless she dies of cancer or something. But shouldn’t her future be revealed? Why Connor had to come to live with them. The late Bronze Tiger would not appreciate this. 🤨 Oliver should have laughed at the Mia’s line. Girl, Oliver fought the best of the best, including Nyssa’s own daddy, the demon himself, Ra’s Al Ghul. The LoA existed before you ever existed. Before both Ra’s daughter existed.  And Mia is supposed to be the new GA? She has so many issues as a character. Whatever you say, show. 

Why would he laugh at his daughters pain. That would make him a complete jackass. Mia is Oliver with the difference that Mia didnt have both their parents around growing up, while Oliver had a carefree childhood with both his parents present and was allowed to do shit like pee on cops cars. Oliver sees his daughters pain. People act like Oliver was born as a perfect GA. 

[Featherhat]

Pretty sure that Mia is supposed to be exactly what she is right now. Quite immature and inexperienced, hot headed and completely closed off to and angry with/confuzzled by Oliver. She's not acting or feeling rationally. That's her arc this season to go from that to bonding with Oliver and taking on his mantle in her own right for the spin off. William just has a completely different temperament and he already knows this Oliver and once he had a chance to say some of the unsaid things to his Dad, and got the perfect response from Oliver he was on cloud nine. 

Oliver could have had a dozen come backs to her line but he doesn't because he understands why she's lashing out at him and why she wants to do things all her own way even has it breaks his hear to watch her. We're going to watch that start to thaw as it did at the end, before other very sad things happen for all of them.

Edited November 10, 2019 by Featherhat

[Simba122504]

9 hours ago, Velocity23 said:

Why would he laugh at his daughters pain. That would make him a complete jackass. Mia is Oliver with the difference that Mia didnt have both their parents around growing up, while Oliver had a carefree childhood with both his parents present and was allowed to do shit like pee on cops cars. Oliver sees his daughters pain. People act like Oliver was born as a perfect GA. 

He’s not laughing at her pain. He would be laughing at her thinking her skills are superior which they are not. He has years on her and faced way more big bads than her.  A smile or chuckle wouldn’t be terrible nor would it be laughing at her pain. It happens in many films and television shows.  Who said he was the perfect early GA? But he sure was better than her. You may think she’s an amazing character and that’s fine, but I don’t. She’s mediocre at best. Being an Olicity offspring doesn’t give her pass.

Edited November 10, 2019 by Simba122504

[apinknightmare]

15 minutes ago, Simba122504 said:

He’s not laughing at her pain. He would be laughing at her thinking her skills are superior which they are not. He has years on her and faced way more big bads than her.  Who said he was the perfect early GA? But he sure was better than her. You may think she’s an amazing character and that’s fine, but I don’t. She’s mediocre at best. Being an Olicity offspring doesn’t give her pass.

He probably didn't laugh at her because he knows that the root of her attitude is anger at him for leaving and not actually based in thinking that she's better than him. He thinks her anger is valid - of course he's not going to laugh at it.

He was also trying to de-escalate the situation and keep her from going out and being rash. The last thing you do to a pissed-off person if you're trying to get them to be less rash is laughing at them.

Edited November 10, 2019 by apinknightmare

[Simba122504]

3 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

He probably didn't laugh at her because he knows that the root of her attitude is anger at him for leaving and not actually based in thinking that she's better than him. He thinks her anger is valid - of course he's not going to laugh at it.

The reaction he would have happens in many films, television and comic books. It’s mild amusement. It’s not laughing at anything the other person went through/dealing with. It’s not taking anything from him/her. You’re laughing at them believing they’re skills are superior to yours. It’s just a small moment that is not uncommon or unrealistic. It’s happened a million times. 

[calliope1975]

As it didn't happen in the episode, the writers must have thought laughing or even a small chuckle from Oliver towards Mia would not have been appropriate. And for once in this series, I agree with TPTB.

[apinknightmare]

10 minutes ago, Simba122504 said:

The reaction he would have happens in many films, television and comic books. It’s mild amusement. It’s not laughing at anything the other person went through/dealing with. It’s not taking anything from him/her. You’re laughing at them believing they’re skills are superior to yours. It’s just a small moment that is not uncommon or unrealistic. It’s happened a million times. 

But what about the situation was amusing? She wasn't just sitting around bragging, he was worried she was going to go out and get herself hurt/killed. 

[RS3]

1 hour ago, Simba122504 said:

He’s not laughing at her pain. He would be laughing at her thinking her skills are superior which they are not. He has years on her and faced way more big bads than her. 

Did you miss the part where she was trained since age 5 or 6? It was probably one of the rare activities one can do when you're stuck growing up in a small town, sheltered from anything and everything. A training that was more a necessity than a hobby because Oliver left her, whether he wanted it or not. So her anger is justified, IMO. Her harsh words were justified especially when William said much worse at one point on the show. 

He wouldn't know if her skills are superior to his. He wasn't there. 

Edited November 10, 2019 by RS3

[apinknightmare]

2 hours ago, calliope1975 said:

As it didn't happen in the episode, the writers must have thought laughing or even a small chuckle from Oliver towards Mia would not have been appropriate. And for once in this series, I agree with TPTB.

Agreed. I think there's definitely room for Oliver to be amused by her namedropping Nyssa, and room for him to put her in her place skills-wise, but that moment was 100% not it.

[statsgirl]

At this point, Oliver doesn't know if his skills are better than Mia's. Nor do we. She trained with Nyssa for 10 years as a child and she's been supporting herself by fighting since she ran off, she may well be able to fight him even though he has a height and weight advantage.

But more than that, Oliver's got to be feeling a lot of guilt at what his decision to save Barry and Kara has cost his kids and the last thing he should be feeling is amusement at Mia and what she was forced to become. William was separated from Felicity and didn't even know he even had a sister, not to mention those commitment issues. Earlier in the episoe Oliver apologized for not being there so that William could tell him about his sexuality. Mia grew up with only Felicity and without ever knowing her father and brother. She's got an enormous chip on her shoulder, especially towards Oliver because she sees him as abandoning her and her mother for a choice that he made.

Personally, I don't think Barry is worth it.

[Simba122504]

6 hours ago, RS3 said:

Did you miss the part where she was trained since age 5 or 6? It was probably one of the rare activities one can do when you're stuck growing up in a small town, sheltered from anything and everything. A training that was more a necessity than a hobby because Oliver left her, whether he wanted it or not. So her anger is justified, IMO. Her harsh words were justified especially when William said much worse at one point on the show. 

He wouldn't know if her skills are superior to his. He wasn't there. 

Based on history, his skills are superior. Mia is still young and fights low level crime. We met her in a faux Fight Club ring. She will learn things from him in these final episodes. Oliver on the hand has faced way more dangerous people than she ever did. He’s more sophisticated than her in every way. That’s obvious since “Arrow” is about his journey. We witnessed Oliver face everything since day 1 because “Arrow” is his show. She’s not better than nobody who has been doing this for years. That possible spin-off would be an origin story for her and the rest excluding the older canaries. I don’t understand how a long time superhero being mildly amused (which again has happened countless times) becomes laughing at someone’s life.  That’s a complete one eighty.    She has a lot to learn if she wants to be a hero. That’s a fact. I’m going to leave this alone because it will never end if we don’t. Agree to disagree. 

[RS3]

6 hours ago, Simba122504 said:

Based on history, his skills are superior. Mia is still young and fights low level crime. We met her in a faux Fight Club ring. She will learn things from him in these final episodes. Oliver on the hand has faced way more dangerous people than she ever did. He’s more sophisticated than her in every way. That’s obvious since “Arrow” is about his journey. We witnessed Oliver face everything since day 1 because “Arrow” is his show. She’s not better than nobody who has been doing this for years. That possible spin-off would be an origin story for her and the rest excluding the older canaries. I don’t understand how a long time superhero being mildly amused (which again has happened countless times) becomes laughing at someone’s life.  That’s a complete one eighty.    She has a lot to learn if she wants to be a hero. That’s a fact. I’m going to leave this alone because it will never end if we don’t. Agree to disagree. 

Oliver doesn't know any of that. "We" is not Oliver. Which is why I said:

13 hours ago, RS3 said:

He wouldn't know if her skills are superior to his. He wasn't there. 

You can believe Mia is a less experienced fighter than he is, and maybe it's true, but it was never the point of my comment, nor the point of their conversation on the show. In context of the show, smirking or laughing at anything his daughter says while she's telling him how hurt she is to have been abandoned, with tears in her eyes, would be a misplaced jerk-ish OOC move, as other people in the thread already said. Also, he doesn't know how experienced or inexperienced she is. We can move on now. 

[BkWurm1]

I think our Oliver is too serious and focused on the big picture to take a pause during a tense, conversation with someone he's walking on eggshells with to be amused for any reason.  And I also feel Oliver is secure enough in his abilities not to care what claims other people are making to him.   

Now I think that the comic book version of Oliver Queen might have been inclined to pause and laugh or toss out a quip during tense moments and from what I've observed, he still had a fragile enough ego to need to challenge a challenge to his abilities, but I don't think it's in character for him on Arrow, The laughter or jokes are more Felicity or William's way of coping than Olivers. 

I wonder if Mia might grow into that more traditional GA trait.  I think we've seen hints of it already.   

[CabotCove]

Quote

Why didn’t Diggle ask about Connor’s mother? Given he just recused them. Wouldn’t they want to save her? Unless she dies of cancer or something. But shouldn’t her future be revealed? Why Connor had to come to live with them. The late Bronze Tiger would not appreciate this. 🤨 

Bronze Tiger/Ben Turner isnt dead yet, at least from what I got from this episode.

Neither Sandra or Ben  are dead in present day as of yet. Likely what happened to either of them will be revealed in the next few episodes

Edited November 17, 2019 by CabotCove

[AudienceofOne]

Episodes this good make me glad I decided to stick around.

[tv echo]

804 (Present Tense) – No Felicity Smoak.

804 (Present Tense) – Oliver Queen’s voiceover intro:
(During this voiceover, we see a montage of past scenes, including scenes of Mia’s birth, Oliver and Felicity saying goodbye at the cabin, and both of them standing in the Arrow Bunker with the rest of Team Arrow in 722.)
Oliver (voiceover): "My name is Oliver Queen. For seven years I have fought with only one goal - to save my city. But now a new threat has emerged, a danger so severe it has forced me to leave my family in order to face it. And it won't be enough for me to just be the Green Arrow. To prevent the Crisis that's coming, I'm going to have to become someone else. I'm going to have to become something else."

804 (Present Tense) – Present day Team Arrow meets Future Team Arrow, and Oliver meets his kids as adults for the first time:
Mia: "Dad?"
Adult William: "Oh, my God. Dad!" (Rushes forward and hugs Oliver)
Oliver: "Wi - Wiliam? William? Mia. Mia?"
Connor (to Diggle): "Dad! Wow, you're so young."
Diggle: "'Dad'? What is this? How did they get here?"
Oliver: "I - I don't know. Those are my kids."
Dinah: "Your kids?"
Oliver (to Mia): "Are you - are you okay?" (Moves toward her)
Mia (gesturing him away): "Don't. How - how is this real?"
Rene: "Good question. The last time I checked, you didn't have an adult daughter... or any daughter."
Oliver: "We had a daughter... and we named her Mia. Felicity gave birth a few months after we left Star City."
Dinah: "How? I - I didn't even know she was pregnant."
Oliver: "We didn't tell anyone. We wanted to keep her off the grid to protect her."
Dinah: "That was only a few months ago."
Oliver: "This is Novu."
Diggle (to Connor): "You called me Dad."
Connor: "You adopted me. Remember? It's Connor."
Diggle: "No. No. I - I - I haven't."
Adult William: "He hasn't because he hasn't yet."
Connor: "What are you talking about?"
Adult William: "I think we're in the past."
Mia: "That is insane."
Adult William: "Look at this place. It's new. And them! No gray hair, no wrinkles. And we are staring at our dad – alive - instead of at his tombstone."
Oliver (reacting): "My -?"
Adult Wiliam: "I'm sorry. What year is this?"
Oliver: "2 -2 uh, it's 2019. What year is it supposed to be?"
Adult William: "2040."

804 (Present Tense) – Oliver talks to Diggle, Rene and Dinah:
Oliver: "I'm genuinely sorry that both of you found out this way. About Mia. About the Monitor. Felicity and I wanted to tell you."
Dinah: "Oliver, as far as excuses go, a cosmic being asking you to sacrifice your life to save the entire universe is a pretty good one."

804 (Present Tense) - DELETED SCENE: Oliver confronts the Monitor about involving his children, Mia and William, in the coming Crisis:
Oliver: "You sent my children here from the future?"
The Monitor: "Your actions left me little choice, Oliver. You failed to retrieve Dr. Wong. You traveled to Nanda Parbat in search of answers to questions you could not even begin to comprehend."
Oliver: "Fine! Punish me and leave my family alone!"
The Monitor: "Strange. You have been bestowed the greatest of gifts. Time... with the children you would otherwise never know. And yet you view it as punishment."
Oliver: "Send them back. Please."
The Monitor: "I cannot. They too have a role to play."
Oliver: "In the Crisis?"
The Monitor: "Indeed."
Oliver: "That you caused!"
The Monitor: "Such hubris. To believe that you could fathom the complex workings of the entire multiverse."
Oliver: "You know I'm going to stop you, right?"
The Monitor: "You'll try. Of that I am certain. But often the steps we take to avoid destiny invariably lead us toward it. Do not contact Barry Allen or Sara Lance to help send your children home. They are to remain in this timeline."
Oliver: "What if I refuse?"
The Monitor: "Then what happens to your children will be your own doing. Not mine."

804 (Present Tense) – Mia, Adult William and Connor talk about what to reveal to the present day team:
Mia: "So he's still out there."
Adult William: "You mean, out there 20 years in the future. Unless you're talking about the current JJ, who'd be, like, what, 5? And you're not going to 'thwick' him. (Off her look) Mia?"
Mia: "No, I'm not. Okay."
*  *  *
Mia: “So don’t tell him. Don’t tell anyone anything.”
Adult William: “Are you serious?”
Connor: “She’s right.”
Adult William: “This is original Team Arrow we’re talking about. They’re going to know something’s up.”
Mia: “Do you want to tell Rene his daughter’s dead? Or tell John his son’s the one who did it? What’s done is done.”

804 (Present Tense) – Oliver takes Mia and Adult William back to the apartment where he had lived with Felicity in Star City:
Adult William: “Wow. This place looks exactly like it did when I was 13, which makes sense since I guess I still am.”
Oliver: “Sorry about the boxes. Felicity and I left pretty suddenly to get to the cabin. (Mia looks at a framed vacation photo of Oliver and Felicity) And, um, we had planned to come back here with both of you at some point.”
Mia: “Yeah. That, um, didn’t really work out.”
Oliver: “Because I died.”
Adult William: “We don’t know exactly. You just sort of disappeared.”
Oliver: “So did, uh – looks like the two of you got a chance to – to grow up with each other.” 
Adult William: “Um, actually, um, Mia and I just found out about each other recently. I never saw Felicity growing up and – and after I left here, I never saw you again.”
Mia: “Yeah. After you died, um, it was just me and Mom at the cabin.”
Oliver: “I’m sorry that I wasn’t there for the two of you.”

804 (Present Tense) – Adult William convinces Oliver not to tell Felicity about their arrival yet and tells Oliver that he's gay:
Oliver: “This is going to be interesting.”
Adult William: “Who are you calling?”
Oliver: “Felicity. She needs to know that the two of you are back.”
Adult William: “You can’t.”
Oliver: “Why?”
Adult William: “Look, I’m not exactly sure how this time travel thing works. Maybe we shouldn’t bring Mom into this until we have a better understanding of what this is.”
Oliver: “That’s a good point.”
*  *  *
Adult William: “I’m gay.”
Oliver: “Yeah, buddy, I know.”
Adult William: “You know?”
Oliver: “Yeah. Felicity and I knew and we just, um – well, we hoped that you were gonna come out to us when you were comfortable. You clearly didn’t get that chance. And that’s on me. So… I’m sorry.”
Adult William: “Dad, we all have the chance to get to know each other now.”
Oliver: “If your sister will let me.”
Adult William: “Mia will come around. You know, she can be a little bit – a little bit stubborn. And hard to reach sometimes.”
Oliver: “Shocker. Where’d she get that from?”
Adult William: “Mom, I guess.”
(They both laugh.)

804 (Present Tense) – Curtis notes Mia’s similarity to Oliver:
Curtis: “I can’t believe that’s your son, that’s William. I can, however, definitely believe that that is your daughter.”
Oliver: “Okay.”
Curtis: “Yeah. Speaking of which, I’m a little upset that you didn’t tell me about her, but that’s okay. I forgive you. So why did you call in the big guns?”
*  *  *
Curtis: “So the fate of the universe is in my hands? Cool.”

804 (Present Tense) – E2 Laurel notes Mia’s similarity to Oliver:
E2 Laurel: "Were you ever planning on sharing that information with the rest of the class?"
Mia: "No.'
E2 Laurel (to Oliver): "Clearly your daughter."

804 (Present Tense) – Connor tells Team Arrow about Grant Wilson leading the Deathstrokes and that Diggle's son JJ takes over from Grant as their leader in the future (per script):

804 (Present Tense) – Mia vents her pent-up anger at Oliver:
Oliver: "We should talk. What are you doing?"
Mia: "I'm going to the hospital bomb site. Maybe Dinah missed something."
Oliver: "Mia."
Mia: "I'm not going to stand around and waste time."
Oliver: "Look. I know what's driving you right now. You lost a teammate. I - I - I've been there. I - I can help. I'm here to help."
Mia: "You know, I survived my whole life without you. I don't need you to play Dad now."
Oliver: "Hey. I'm not playing Dad. I am simply telling you that it is not tactically wise to go out there by yourself -"
Mia: "Fine. I'll take Laurel."
Oliver: "When you are letting your decisions be driven by your emotions. Trust me. I've been there."
Mia: "You don't get a say! You gave up that right when you left me and Mom alone in that cabin. How could you just abandon us?"
Oliver: "Because I chose to keep you safe, and I chose right."
Mia: "You just wanted to be a hero, so you put your mission above your family. Don't worry. You'll learn to live without me pretty easy, just like I learned to live without you."
Oliver: "Ahem. I'm not letting you go out there."
Mia: "Nyssa al Ghul trained me. You want to see how well?"
Oliver: "I'm not gonna fight you. I'm your father."
Mia: "Really? Because from where I stand, you're just some guy in my way."
E2 Laurel (coming up): "Mia. I'll go with you. (Oliver nods and gets out of Mia's way.) Let's go."

804 (Present Tense) – Oliver, Dinah, Adult William and Connor discuss how to locate Grant Wilson AKA Deathstroke:
Oliver: “We need to focus on tracking down Grant. Felicity’s search algorithm should still be on the computer.”
Adult William: “Way ahead of you. Wow. Mom really liked playing fast and loose with the Fourth Amendment, huh?”
Oliver: “Yeah.”

804 (Present Tense) – E2 Laurel has a heart-to-heart conversation with Mia and references Felicity:
E2 Laurel: "In the future, do they still use the phrase 'wild goose chase'?"
Mia: "If you're bored, you can go. I don't need a babysitter."
E2 Laurel: "No, but you might need backup when you try to kill Grant Wilson."
Mia: "How did you know?"
E2 Laurel: "Oh. Well, clearly no one has informed you that I used to play for Team Villain. And I can spot a murderous intent a million miles away."
Mia: "So what, are you gonna try and talk me out of it now, tell me to listen to my dad or -?"
E2 Laurel: "Oh, God, no. I would never tell anyone to listen to Oliver Queen. No offense, but I'm not exactly a very big fan of your father's. He's kind of a dick. But you are a grown woman. And if you want to kill this guy, then have it, But I just want to know why."
Mia: "Because locking him up isn't gonna change anything. He escapes every time. It's why he is such a cult hero among all the worst here in Star City."
E2 Laurel: "Including Future JJ."
Mia: "Exactly. Look. Grant has to die so Zoe can live."
E2 Laurel: "I don't know anything about changing timelines, but I am something of an expert on vengeance. And getting it, it doesn't do anything but cause you more pain."
Mia: "So, what, you're an expert on talking people out of murder?"
E2 Laurel: "Kind of. I had to when Felicity wanted to take down Ricardo Diaz."
Mia: "My mom tried to kill someone?"
E2 Laurel: "No, because I talked her out of it. And, look, I get it. You and your mom, you're both women who won't allow themselves to be talked out of anything, and I appreciate that. But Felicity, she never regretted changing her approach. So maybe you should try doing things differently, too."

804 (Present Tense) – Oliver and Adult William talk about Mia:
Adult William: “It’s Mia, right?”
Oliver: “I didn’t want her to go out there.”
Adult William: “Well, then you should have made her stay.”
Oliver: “What, put her in time out? She’s an adult.”
Adult William: “Yeah. And like an adult, she makes mistakes.”
Oliver: “Look. She’s right. I chose to go with the Monitor. I abandoned her. I haven’t earned a say.”
Adult William: “Yeah, but that doesn’t mean she doesn’t want you to have one. Or – or that you shouldn’t. And I’m saying that from experience.”
*  *  *
Adult William: “Dad, I am glad that you’re in my life. Then and now. And Mia will be, too.”

804 (Present Tense) – Curtis and Adult William provide tech support to Team Arrow and Future Team Arrow in the field:
Connor (over comms): “William, it’s an intervalometer.”
Diggle: “Where’d you learn that?”
Connor: “From you.”
(Cut to Arrow Bunker)
Curtis: “It’s most likely pulsating in a consistently synchronizing pattern.”
Adult William: “So it’ll have a transfer switch embedded into the mainframe.”
Curtis: “Look at us – Holt and Smoak 2.0.”

804 (Present Tense) – Oliver stops Mia from killing Grant Wilson:
Grant: “This isn’t over.”
Mia (drawing back her bow): “Yes, it is.”
Oliver: “Mia!”
Mia: “Get out of my way!”
Oliver: “No. Hate me if you want. I’m not letting you do this.”
(Mia lowers her bow.)

804 (Present Tense) – Oliver takes Mia to Robert Queen's gravestone:
Mia: “Is this what you wanted to show me? Grandpa’s grave?”
Oliver: “Did your mother ever mention him?”
Mia: “Not really.”
Oliver: “I supposed she wouldn’t know what to say. I barely do.”
Mia: “You weren’t close?”
Oliver: “I didn’t really get to know the real him until after he died. And, um, look, I don’t want that to be us.”
Mia: “You’ve, um – you’ve lost people, right?”
Oliver: “Yeah. Too many.”
Mia: “Does the guilt ever leave?”
Oliver: “No. You can learn to live with it. I can help you with that, Mia. If you’d like.”
(Mia looks at him and nods. He nods back.)

804 (Present Tense) – The Monitor makes E2 Laurel a deal:
E2 Laurel: “You must be the Monitor.”
The Monitor: “How do you know?”
E2 Laurel: “Because no human would actually wear something so ridiculous.”
The Monitor: “You ache for the world you lost, and I possess the power to restore it.”
E2 Laurel: “You can bring back my Earth.”
The Monitor: “The recovery of your universe will require a single task.”
E2 Laurel: “What kind of task?”
The Monitor: “You must betray Oliver Queen.”

Edited May 12, 2020 by tv echo

[way2interested]

At least explains why no one tried to send FTA back to the future

 

[tv echo]

I've added a transcription for this deleted scene (revealed by IGN yesterday) to my above transcriptions.