S04.E07: The Dinner and the Date

[qtpye]

3 minutes ago, Jaclyn88 said:

What 14 and 16 year old acts like De ja and Malik? I am a teacher and I can promise you none of them act that mature.. and are we supposed to blame Randall and Beth for putting a stop to 14 year old De ja dating a 16 year old with a baby? No parent would be like.. sure .. here's my blessing. On the other hand, I get why Beth got annoyed with the other mother... but I can't stand her overall attitude about everything. She just comes off stuck up and cold to me and I haven't really liked her since the beginning. 

I was going to say the age difference would be enough for me to put a kibosh on the relationship. I also felt that the writing was too mature for kids that age. I guess we were supposed to infer that because he is a father and she had to be the adult in the relationship with her mother, that they are both very mature for their ages. 

However, it still made me uncomfortable.

[ShadowFacts]

27 minutes ago, ams1001 said:

Yeah, it was at the end when they were looking at the lights on the houses. (How long were they out, anyway? From the morning before school started until after dark..?)

I questioned that myself, then remembered Deja telling Malik that she had drill practice until 7, so it does get dark before then this time of year. 

12 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I was going to say the age difference would be enough for me to put a kibosh on the relationship. I also felt that the writing was too mature for kids that age. I guess we were supposed to infer that because he is a father and she had to be the adult in the relationship with her mother, that they are both very mature for their ages. 

However, it still made me uncomfortable.

I think they have always shown Deja to be pretty wise for her age.  But yes, she's only a freshman in high school, my own personal view is that is too young for getting enmeshed in a heavy relationship. 

Edited November 6, 2019 by ShadowFacts

[Scarlett45]

27 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I think they have always shown Deja to be pretty wise for her age.  But yes, she's only a freshman in high school, my own personal view is that is too young for getting enmeshed in a heavy relationship. 

I too can see Deja being mature, but from what we have seen I wouldn’t categorize her relationship with Malik as “heavy”- didn’t they just go to the movies with a group of friends? (Of course skipping school is NOT okay and Deja absolutely should’ve been punished for that!)

Given Malik is a teen dad AND has a part-time job he wouldn’t have much leisure time to spend with Deja anyway. The age difference doesn’t bother me, 2 yrs or less (depending on when their birthdays are) is fine to go to the movies (especially in a group). Of course Deja must obey her parents and it’s Randall’s/Beth’s decision about what she’s allowed to do, but I didn’t see their interactions as “heavy”. Skipping school was immature and irresponsible and must be dealt with, but one time skipping school doesn’t mean Deja is on a bad path or something. 

[AriAu]

I gotta give this episode credit...it actually made me miss grown up Kate.

Yeah, loved Beth (mostly) controlling her rage at the very rude other mother.

Given what we just watched.....and TIU's general MO, there is only one question-what very bad thing is going to happen to Malik or his baby or his father or Deja, cuz, let's face it, that is what this set us up for!

Edited November 6, 2019 by AriAu

[Wouldofshouldof]

11 hours ago, ams1001 said:

I love Annie.

"We say grace, too."

"No we don't..."

(paraphrased, of course)

Lol. Once when I was younger my family and I were at some buffet restaurant, where kids ate for less.  My dad pointed to me and said "She's under 12," and of course I said "No I'm not!"

[kili]

Quote

I too can see Deja being mature, but from what we have seen I wouldn’t categorize her relationship with Malik as “heavy”

I'm not the OP, but I consider the Malik relationship more weighty because a baby is involved.

Teen romances are usually light and airy - much like the day they had exploring Phillie - ice cream and fairy lights interlaced with phillosophical discussions. Study for exams and then talk about which Power Ranger was your favourite "when you were a kid".

But having a baby immediately makes things heavier. This was illustrated when Malik had to leap up from dinner to calm his child. He has serious responsibilities and anybody who is contemplating a relationship with him is also taking on a relationship with his daughter. Malik is frequently with his daughter (he brought her to the "Meet the Parents" dinner), so Deja will likely interact with her. What role does Deja take and if she bonds with the child, what happens if the Mali-ja ship sinks?

Many wouldn't want their 13 year old child involved in all of these "heavy" considerations for their first romance.

In other news, that shade thrown during the grace was pretty fierce. Malik's Mom basically said the Pearsons were ingrates who didn't deserve their success.

[topanga]

10 hours ago, Blakeston said:

When Deja confronted Malik about her misgivings when he reached for her hand, it took me out of the episode completely. What kind of 14-year-old talks like that to a boy who gives her "butterflies?"

I get that Deja had to grow up fast, and I can see her having those feelings. But revealing her vulnerabilities in such a perfectly articulated way, to the boy she likes, at the moment she becomes overwhelmed?

The writers are lucky that Lyric Ross is such a terrific actress, because some of the dialogue they give her can't be easy to pull off.

That's how I felt while watching that scene, but you articulated it much better than I could. Pun intended. 

I know what that's like--to have strong feelings for someone but to be afraid of those feelings, especially when they're for someone who's had relationships in the past and who has obviously been sexually active. But when I was 14, I couldn't make heads or tails of why I felt the way I did about a boy, and I certainly wouldn't have been able to express those feelings so eloquently to the object of my affection. 

Yes, Lyric Ross does great work with unrealistic dialogue. Like when she started monologuing to Randall last season (I think). Sure, I rolled my eyes a little. But she was able to put emotion and earnestness into her words that made me forgive her for speechifying. 

8 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

The story with younger Randall and Jack being all adopted dad angsty is pretty played out (especially with so much territory in their family left uncovered) so it was rather uninteresting, but it did have a few really good moments, like Jack getting the poetry book and Randall reciting the I, Too, Am America. 

I like the young Randall subplots, but I don't think we see enough young Kevin or young Kate storylines that focus on Jack being as concerned about his relationship with them. I know Randall is unique in the family--he's black and he's adopted. Jack is right to be concerned about whether he's doing all he can to raise a young black man. 

But I don't see him worrying about Kevin's future in the same way. He's quick to chastise Kevin or correct his behavior--I'm not saying that's wrong. Young Kevin was a jerk sometimes. But I rarely see Jack spending time with Kevin in any meaningful way to suggest he cares about who Kevin is individually, and not just as a member of the Big 3. I know Jack went to his football games and recorded them. But do we ever see Jack sitting down with Kevin to talk about how football is like life, or maybe consoling Kevin after his team loses a big game?

And Jack treats Kate like a fragile doll, not as a person. He always wants to protect her-- and yeah, I know dads do that. Dads are supposed to show their daughters that they're loved and cherished. But girls also need to be challenged, to be corrected, and to be taught how to survive in the big bad world. But he doesn't do that.  I see Rebecca taking on that role, and Kate sees her as the bad parent because of that.

It's as if Jack sees great potential in Randall but doesn't see it in Kevin or Kate. And they all must sense that. 

23 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I was going to say the age difference would be enough for me to put a kibosh on the relationship

12 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I think they have also shown Deja to be pretty wise for her age.  But yes, she's only a freshman in high school, my own personal view is that is too young for getting enmeshed in a heavy relationship. 

I agree with both of you. But Beth and Randall can't effectively forbid Deja and Malik from having a relationship. Teenagers find a way. And as Beth alluded to, it would probably draw them even closer together. What they can do is continue to place boundaries on the time they spend together. And Beth especially should make sure she talks to Deja about making good choices and the consequences of bad choices. Yes, Deja is mature. But raging teenage hormones and being around someone who makes you feel like you're the most special person in the world? That can override maturity and intelligence if you aren't prepared. 

[ByaNose]

I knew Deja was thinking of Boat House Row when talking about lights and water. I was happy to see it all lit up. I've never been a water ice person but Rita's is like a bank. They're on every corner. LOL!!! I agree with an earlier poster that Malik looks way younger then Deja that I don't take him that seriously. I guess it won't be long till we get the flash forward of Deja and what road she took. I'm hoping it's out of this show and soon.

[ams1001]

17 minutes ago, Wouldofshouldof said:

Lol. Once when I was younger my family and I were at some buffet restaurant, where kids ate for less.  My dad pointed to me and said "She's under 12," and of course I said "No I'm not!"

Ha, when I was 12 my parents wouldn't have even had to say anything. No one would have even assumed I was 12. (My best friend and I got kid-price movie tickets automatically until we were about 15. They just assumed we were younger. Her sister is four years younger and they always thought she was older than us when we were all together.)

13 minutes ago, topanga said:

But Beth and Randall can't effectively forbid Deja and Malik from having a relationship. Teenagers find a way.

Especially since they go to school together. Not in the same grade so they probably don't see each other that much during the day, but still...there was some mixing of classes when I was in high school. Gym class, especially, was a mix of grades, as were some electives, and there were only three lunch periods. Plus his dad's shop, at least, is obviously on her bus route, so seeing each other on the bus is not unlikely even if they don't go out of their way to ride together.

[qtpye]

4 minutes ago, topanga said:

That's how I felt while watching that scene, but you articulated it much better than I could. Pun intended. 

I know what that's like--to have strong feelings for someone but to be afraid of those feelings, especially when they're for someone who's had relationships in the past and who has obviously been sexually active. But when I was 14, I couldn't make heads or tails of why I felt the way I did about a boy, and I certainly wouldn't have been able to express those feelings so eloquently to the object of my affection. 

Yes, Lyric Ross does great work with unrealistic dialogue. Like when she started monologuing to Randall last season (I think). Sure, I rolled my eyes a little. But she was able to put emotion and earnestness into her words that made me forgive her for speechifying. 

I like the young Randall subplots, but I don't think we see enough young Kevin or young Kate storylines that focus on Jack being as concerned about his relationship with them. I know Randall is unique in the family--he's black and he's adopted. Jack is right to be concerned about whether he's doing all he can to raise a young black man. 

But I don't see him worrying about Kevin's future in the same way. He's quick to chastise Kevin or correct his behavior--I'm not saying that's wrong. Young Kevin was a jerk sometimes. But I rarely see Jack spending time with Kevin in any meaningful way to suggest he cares about who Kevin is individually, and not just as a member of the Big 3. I know Jack went to his football games and recorded them. But do we ever see Jack sitting down with Kevin to talk about how football is like life, or maybe consoling Kevin after his team loses a big game?

And Jack treats Kate like a fragile doll, not as a person. He always wants to protect her-- and yeah, I know dads do that. Dads are supposed to show their daughters that they're loved and cherished. But girls also need to be challenged, to be corrected, and to be taught how to survive in the big bad world. But he doesn't do that.  I see Rebecca taking on that role, and Kate sees her as the bad parent because of that.

It's as if Jack sees great potential in Randall but doesn't see it in Kevin or Kate. And they all must sense that. 

I agree with both of you. But Beth and Randall can't effectively forbid Deja and Malik from having a relationship. Teenagers find a way. And as Beth alluded to, it would probably draw them even closer together. What they can do is continue to place boundaries on the time they spend together. And Beth especially should make sure she talks to Deja about making good choices and the consequences of bad choices. Yes, Deja is mature. But raging teenage hormones and being around someone who makes you feel like you're the most special person in the world? That can override maturity and intelligence if you aren't prepared. 

I am a woman of color and the first seasons I was very uncomfortable with the way  young Kevin treated young Randall....it almost felt racist.

Now, I see that Jack was so obsessed with Randall that he almost brushed Kevin aside. Of course this was not Randall's fault, but a kid does not think like that.

I think Jack's and Rebecca's focus on Randall have to do with the following things:

1. The two biological twins being really close and maybe unknowingly leaving out Randall.

2. Understanding Randall will have bigger hurdles in life because of his skin color.

However, I think the most important factor with the Jack/Randall/Kevin relationship is Jack's own securities.

Because Jack did not grow up with a lot of money and his father is an alcoholic, he feels like he knows what it is like to be "less than". However, he knows that he still gets privilege as a white man that Randall will never be privy to.

Also, because of the said insecurities Jack desperately needs people to "need him". Kevin's golden boy status is something Jack can not relate to and it also makes Jack identify Kevin as someone that "does not need" Jack.

Jack has always been insecure that if he allows Rebecca to pursue her dreams, she will realize she is too good for him and move on to something better. He has been trained that a guy of his background does not deserve a country club girl like her, which was confirmed by his and her father.

I can not help but think that he enabled Kate's overeating, because that would make her "need him more". "It does not matter what the world thinks, Kate, because Daddy will always love and protect you". He wanted her to be a bit emotionally dependent on him, so that he is always "needed". 

The irony is that I think this would not change even if the family had not adopted Randall. Jack sees Kevin as someone so amazingly blessed in looks and charisma, that he would be very likely not to take his problems too seriously and just tell him to "man up".  Of course, Kevin would lash out at this by acting like a brat.

The problem is that Kevin takes his anger and frustration out on Randall but the real issue is Jack.

[Cementhead]

2 hours ago, Higgins said:

I think Malik looks 12. 

Agreed!  He looks 16 about as much as Deja looks 14.  She looks much older and could pass for 18-20.  The two of them frolicking through the city together looked like a big sister and little brother.  Rare major fails on the casting dept. 

I also agree with the comments that as much as I love watching angsty teen romance dramas, this is not the show I turn to for that, nor the character.  I am just not at all interested or invested. 

[SunnyBeBe]

I'd rather watch golf......this episode was painful to me.  I mean, the writers really think all of that stuff was a good thing?  Please.....I'm not sure what it is , but, everything about Randall's family annoys me.  His wife, his kids, his daughter's boyfriend, boyfriend's family, etc.  lol  Malik's mother may have been off base and offensive, but, what grown woman goes into a tailspin and lets an obviously misinformed person push your buttons that way?  Odd....I can attest to the fact that you can tell someone exactly what you think and that they are full of it, without breaking a sweat or even seeming flustered.  lol  Under the circumstances, that would have been preferred, imo.  Guzzling wine in the pantry, because someone upset you?  Not a good sign.  

And then they are trying to paint this unwise connection between Deja and Malik as major, romantic, love affair.......sorry, don't see it.  I suspect they selected this actor to look so young, so, he won't seem as intimidating as a mature young man, but, he's already demonstrated that he will use poor judgment, thus the pregnancy and THEN he further shows his cards by taking Deja against her parent's permission for the day trip.  Deja told her parents that Malik wasn't cocky.  Well, when you have to tell someone that, they probably are.  I don't care for this character at all, even if there was no baby.  There are a lot of reasons that could have gone wrong AND, he seemed to get a pass on that too, since, he's a good student. I don't want to think about it anymore and pray they move on.  

Jack is majorly insecure.  He needs help.  So annoying. 

Edited November 6, 2019 by SunnyBeBe

[ItCouldBeWorse]

11 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Oh, and I thought the teacher's system of classifying books by publication year was pretentious. Good for him if he can memorize the publication year for all of his books, but what's the point?

Yes, that system would drive me crazy.

On his his home bookshelf, he had a volume of Shakespeare (first folio published in 1623), followed by a collected Sherlock Holmes (stories published between 1887 and 1927), followed by Langston Hughes' "The Weary Blues" (first published in 1926), followed by an unidentified volume of Hemingway (his first collection of stories was published in 1923).

Would a collected edition be shelved by the publication date of the collected edition, or by the original publication date of the first or the last  item contained within?  Would a newly published edition of Shakespeare come after an earlier Hemingway?

Edited November 6, 2019 by ItCouldBeWorse

[Empress1]

11 hours ago, topanga said:

I enjoyed the tour through Philadelphia. I lived there for a while in the ‘90s, and yes, Max’s cheesesteaks are the best. And Boathouse Row (the houses on the river with the lights) still takes my breath away. 

Team Beth all the way! Those were two awkward dinners.

But Annie was the MVP of the episode .

ETA: Travel guides rave about Gino’s cheesesteaks. But no one who lives in Philly likes them or gets their steaks from there.  

Facts. Honestly, a lot of us just got them from the neighborhood greasy spoon. (I don't even really fuck with cheesesteaks that much, so I laughed when Deja was like "Oh my GOD, y'all and these cheesesteaks.")

I love Boathouse Row, and I got a kick out of seeing them get off the 23 (I used to take that from school) at Broad and Erie. I grew up three blocks from a Rita's; "walking over to Rita's" was so much of my summer childhood. (However, Tranzilli's is fire too.)

Randall, you know you bougie. Come on. (I still want to know what neighborhood they're in.)

Where can I get the necklace Mrs. Lawrence was wearing? Also, her skin is gorgeous and the burnt orange she was wearing was stunning against it.

6 hours ago, watcher1006 said:

Hear, hear! I feel that boundaries have to be maintained between students and teachers. There is ever the possibility of improper conduct being perceived, whether it occurs or not. And there is the more mundane issue of favoritism among a teacher's students. I think he should have declined Jack's dinner invitation and suggested a different avenue for discussion.

The young music teacher everybody (except me, heh) liked when I was in high school had a relationship with at least one student, and I firmly believe that was just the one he got caught with. The rumors abounded when I was there. 

8 hours ago, NUguy514 said:

And I'm sorry, but it's...incredibly rude to be invited to dinner at someone else's house and insist on saying grace – not your house, not your dinner, not your call, you play by your hosts' rules, lady.  I was totally on Beth's side throughout that skirmish, and I think she showed much more restraint than I would've.

 So fucking rude! Like, that is just Not Done. Team Beth. The whole pantry scene was gold. "This woman about to make me come out my spirit!" You could just see her morph from hostess to "you said what about my kid?" It was a nice bit of acting from Watson, as was the head tilt and look during that rude-ass grace. 

16 minutes ago, kili said:

I'm not the OP, but I consider the Malik relationship more weighty because a baby is involved.

Teen romances are usually light and airy - much like the day they had exploring Phillie - ice cream and fairy lights interlaced with phillosophical discussions. Study for exams and then talk about which Power Ranger was your favourite "when you were a kid".

But having a baby immediately makes things heavier. This was illustrated when Malik had to leap up from dinner to calm his child. He has serious responsibilities and anybody who is contemplating a relationship with him is also taking on a relationship with his daughter. Malik is frequently with his daughter (he brought her to the "Meet the Parents" dinner), so Deja will likely interact with her. What role does Deja take and if she bonds with the child, what happens if the Mali-ja ship sinks?

Many wouldn't want their 13 year old child involved in all of these "heavy" considerations for their first romance.

I completely agree, which is why I wouldn't want Deja dating Malik either. I might be a bit concerned about the 14/16 thing (which I forget about because Asante Blackk is so young-looking), but it's been established that Deja is mature for her age - she's had to be, given her background. But a baby (who is very cute) adds heft to any situation - even adults sometimes balk at dating people with kids from previous relationships because it kind of automatically makes the relationship more serious. Deja has already had to deal with too much, and now her first relationship is with a teen father, which is by definition serious. She said she has "plans for [her] life;" is she going to ditch them if she bonds to the baby? 

Deja is really growing up to be very pretty. (I sound like my grandfather. That's OK, he was one of my favorite people.)

[Scarlett45]

37 minutes ago, kili said:

But having a baby immediately makes things heavier. This was illustrated when Malik had to leap up from dinner to calm his child. He has serious responsibilities and anybody who is contemplating a relationship with him is also taking on a relationship with his daughter. Malik is frequently with his daughter (he brought her to the "Meet the Parents" dinner), so Deja will likely interact with her. What role does Deja take and if she bonds with the child, what happens if the Mali-ja ship sinks?

Many wouldn't want their 13 year old child involved in all of these "heavy" considerations for their first romance.

In other news, that shade thrown during the grace was pretty fierce. Malik's Mom basically said the Pearsons were ingrates who didn't deserve their success.

I see what you’re saying now thank you. 
 

I would think that Deja wouldn’t be spending much time with the baby (no more than if she was his little sister)- time with Deja and/friends should be AFTER his childcare and parenting duties IF his parents want to help. (Like when his Dad let him go to the BBQ). I do agree that Deja shouldn’t be expected to be a caregiver to his daughter. 

[Cementhead]

So, I'm trying to get through watching episode right now and as Randall is watching Deja from the kitchen he says to Malik's father, "One day you're their biggest idol; next day someone else comes along and becomes their whole world."  Ok, I am sorry but this sentiment simply does not fit here at all.  No way, no how.  I appreciate the sentiment but there is not nearly enough history and years shared between Randall and Deja for this line to work. 

[topanga]

14 minutes ago, qtpye said:

However, I think the most important factor with the Jack/Randall/Kevin relationship is Jack's own securities.

Because Jack did not grow up with a lot of money and his father is an alcoholic, he feels like he knows what it is like to be "less than". However, he knows that he still gets privilege as a white man that Randall will never be privy to.

Also, because of the said insecurities Jack desperately needs people to "need him". Kevin's golden boy status is something Jack can not relate to and it also makes Jack identify Kevin as someone that "does not need" Jack.

Jack has always been insecure that if he allows Rebecca to pursue her dreams, she will realize she is too good for him and move on to something better. He has been trained that a guy of his background does not deserve a country club girl like her, which was confirmed by his and her father.

I can not help but think that he enabled Kate's overeating, because that would make her "need him more". "It does not matter what the world thinks, Kate, because Daddy will always love and protect you". He wanted her to be a bit emotionally dependent on him, so that he is always "needed". 

Great analysis. And that makes me sad for Kevin. Because I know what it's like to be the "good child"  --not cute and charismatic like Kevin with lots of friends --but the one who does well in school and doesn't get in trouble.  Parents are assume that everything is okay with you because your life seems fine, and you get tossed aside while their attention goes to other children in the family. But how about trying to find out how they really are? Some kids are great at hiding their emotions, especially if those emotions contradict what everyone knows or expects them to be.

12 minutes ago, Cementhead said:

Agreed!  He looks 16 about as much as Deja looks 14.  She looks much older and could pass for 18-20.  The two of them frolicking through the city together looked like a big sister and little brother.  Rare major fails on the casting dept.

I wouldn't say Deja looks 14, but she certainly doesn't look 18-20. Lyric Ross just turned 16, and I think she looks 16. But she plays  Deja with enough innocence that I can suspend my disbelief. 

I don't know if any of you have seen the movie "Before Sunrise" with Ethan Hawke and Julie Delpy (Happy Birthday, Ethan), but parts of the Philly skip day reminded me a tiny bit of that movie. Especially when Malik and Deja were walking through the park telling stories and then lying down on the grass. 

[qtpye]

4 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I see what you’re saying now thank you. 
 

I would think that Deja wouldn’t be spending much time with the baby (no more than if she was his little sister)- time with Deja and/friends should be AFTER his childcare and parenting duties IF his parents want to help. (Like when his Dad let him go to the BBQ). I do agree that Deja shouldn’t be expected to be a caregiver to his daughter. 

I agree on principle. 

However, the truth of the matter when I was single that I understood the implications of dating a single father. A young widower was interested in me and he had the most adorable 4 year old boy. I understood that if I dated this man, I take on the responsibility of his child.

A 14 year old has no understanding of such real world concepts. Malik will have to make that baby a priority in his life on all occasions. Being Malik's girlfriend means fully accepting his role as a father.  As mature as Deja is, there is no way she can comprehend what this means.

4 minutes ago, Cementhead said:

So, I'm trying to get through watching episode right now and as Randall is watching Deja from the kitchen he says to Malik's father, "One day you're their biggest idol; next day someone else comes along and becomes their whole world."  Ok, I am sorry but this sentiment simply does not fit here at all.  No way, no how.  I appreciate the sentiment but there is not nearly enough history and years shared between Randall and Deja for this line to work. 

Randall, Deja might have looked up to you as a success but she mostly thought you were weird and corny. She never idolized you.

[ShadowFacts]

19 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I'd rather watch golf......this episode was painful to me.  I mean, the writers really think all of that stuff was a good thing?  Please.....I'm not sure what it is , but, everything about Randall's family annoys me.  His wife, his kids, his daughter's boyfriend, boyfriend's family, etc.  lol  Malik's mother may have been off base and offensive, but, what grown woman goes into a tailspin and lets an obviously misinformed person push your buttons that way?  Odd....I can attest to the fact that you can tell someone exactly what you think and that they are full of it, without breaking a sweat or even seeming flustered.  lol  Under the circumstances, that would have been preferred, imo.  Guzzling wine in the pantry, because someone upset you?  Not a good sign.  

I agree.  I thought all of the dinner at Randall's was pretty badly written, very overwrought.  Beth and Kelly? might as well have worn witch hats and cackled.  The understandable tension on both sides could have been shown much more civilly and subtly and much less scorched earth.

29 minutes ago, qtpye said:

However, I think the most important factor with the Jack/Randall/Kevin relationship is Jack's own securities.

Yes, and I was a bit taken aback when Jack actually said Randall is his whole world.  That is exactly what Rebecca's dad said about her, and that doesn't strike me as real healthy.

[Cementhead]

12 minutes ago, topanga said:

I wouldn't say Deja looks 14, but she certainly doesn't look 18-20. Lyric Ross just turned 16, and I think she looks 16. But she plays  Deja with enough innocence that I can suspend my disbelief. 

It's so interesting to read people's different perspectives which is why I love this place, because I find Lyric Ross to be a very mature, 'old soul' actress, which I guess is why I could see her being much older than 14 or even 16.  I guess it's more about her presence than her looks. 

And I don't think I am going to even bother to finish watching this episode because I find the comments more interesting than the episode this week. 

Edited November 6, 2019 by Cementhead

[qtpye]

3 minutes ago, topanga said:

Great analysis. And that makes me sad for Kevin. Because I know what it's like to be the "good child"  --not cute and charismatic like Kevin with lots of friends --but the one who does well in school and doesn't get in trouble.  Parents are assume that everything is okay with you because your life seems fine, and you get tossed aside while their attention goes to other children in the family. But how about trying to find out how they really are? Some kids are great at hiding their emotions, especially if those emotions contradict what everyone knows or expects them to be.

I wouldn't say Deja looks 14, but she certainly doesn't look 18-20. Lyric Ross just turned 16, and I think she looks 16. But she plays  Deja with enough innocence that I can suspend my disbelief. 

I don't know if any of you have seen the movie "Before Sunrise" with Ethan Hawke and Julie Delpy (Happy Birthday, Ethan), but parts of the Philly skip day reminded me a tiny bit of that movie. Especially when Malik and Deja were walking through the park telling stories and then lying down on the grass. 

Many of us who are good kids have been in your shoes and understand your pain. It's like the Prodigal Son dilemma.

However, I think it is even worse with Kevin. I don't think Jack thinks of Kevin as the "good kid". In fact, he probably will be more likely to categorize Kate and Randall as "good kids".

To Jack, Kevin is the "lucky kid" who never appreciates what he has.

In all fairness, Kevin is just one of those people that God has blessed with both hands.  He almost reminds me a bit of Don Draper.

A white handsome successful rich charming man that almost has women literally throwing themselves at him...who also happens to be miserable most of the time.

I think the problem is that Kevin never got to confront his father and Jack's early death has made them all remember him as a saint that could do not wrong.

[marceline]

12 hours ago, ams1001 said:

I love Annie.

"We say grace, too."

"No we don't..."

(paraphrased, of course)

I just kept laughing at Annie putting everyone on blast. She did it with the "It's really weird you have a baby" and "Deja would be like Janelle's stepmother." I was waiting for "Shut up Annie!" to turn into a thing like "Shut up Wesley!" did on Star Trek: TNG.

[qtpye]

1 minute ago, marceline said:

I just kept laughing at Annie putting everyone on blast. She did it with the "It's really weird you have a baby" and "Deja would be like Janelle's stepmother." I was waiting for "Shut up Annie!" to turn into a thing like "Shut up Wesley!" did on Star Trek: TNG.

It was like Annie was our Greek Chorus this episode.

[Blakeston]

I don’t recall Beth being hostile until Malik’s mother started casting aspersions on Deja, and calling her “someone else’s kid.”

[Cementhead]

Annie is FAR TOO underutilized on this show!  Someone last week commented that the Pearsons forgot to pack her when they moved which was too funny and so true! 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

32 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I would think that Deja wouldn’t be spending much time with the baby (no more than if she was his little sister)- time with Deja and/friends should be AFTER his childcare and parenting duties IF his parents want to help. (Like when his Dad let him go to the BBQ). I do agree that Deja shouldn’t be expected to be a caregiver to his daughter. 

I also don't understand how a 15/16 year old would have received custody of an infant, unless he was emancipated.  Wouldn't his parents have been given custody until he reached his majority?  Doesn't the same issue occur when a parent dies and the oldest child is not yet 18 and can therefore not be the legal custodian for the younger siblings?  Is it different because he is Janelle's father, not her brother?  Can he make legal decisions for her, when he cannot even sign binding contracts for himself?

[topanga]

7 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

In general, I try and not judge people by their physical appearance.  I know I am no prize petunia and never hit the genetic lottery.

We're harder on ourselves than almost anyone else could be. But whose physical appearance was being judged? 

21 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Randall, Deja might have looked up to you as a success but she mostly thought you were weird and corny. She never idolized you.

That's funny. But didn't Deja tell Malik that there was only other man/boy/person who made her feel special? Liked her for who she was? Understood her? I can't remember the exact wording, but I thought she was talking about Randall. 

Which makes Beth chopped liver, I suppose. Moms get no respect on this show. LOL. 

Quote

I also don't understand how a 15/16 year old would have received custody of an infant, unless he was emancipated.  Wouldn't his parents have been given custody until he reached his majority?

That's my guess: Malik's parents are the baby's legal guardians.

Edited November 6, 2019 by topanga

[ItCouldBeWorse]

2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

What annoyed me about the whole cutting school plotline was Malik's insistence that he had to show Deja Philly RIGHT NOW. Like you can't take do that after school or on the weekend?

On the weekend, he would have needed to take Janelle.  She's probably in daycare while he's supposed to be at school.

2 minutes ago, topanga said:

23 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Randall, Deja might have looked up to you as a success but she mostly thought you were weird and corny. She never idolized you.

That's funny. But didn't Deja tell Malik that there was only other man/boy/person who made her feel special? Liked her for who she was? Understood her? I can't remember the exact wording, but I thought she was talking about Randall. 

She said there was one other person who always spoke the truth (implying Randall) and then said she wasn't sure if Malik was telling her the truth, which made her statement about there being 2 people who told her the truth very awkward.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

12 minutes ago, Cementhead said:

Annie is FAR TOO underutilized on this show!  Someone last week commented that the Pearsons forgot to pack her when they moved which was too funny and so true! 

And Tess certainly seems to have that baby-loving instinct!

[ClareWalks]

3 hours ago, ByaNose said:

Hopefully, Deja will be going to college next year and we can see less of her, if possible

She's only 14, so probably not.

[ams1001]

11 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

Yes, and I was a bit taken aback when Jack actually said Randall is his whole world. 

I was thinking, "what about your other kids?"

[Scarlett45]

27 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

I also don't understand how a 15/16 year old would have received custody of an infant, unless he was emancipated.  Wouldn't his parents have been given custody until he reached his majority?  Doesn't the same issue occur when a parent dies and the oldest child is not yet 18 and can therefore not be the legal custodian for the younger siblings?  Is it different because he is Janelle's father, not her brother?  Can he make legal decisions for her, when he cannot even sign binding contracts for himself?

That’s  he is her father. Same reason teenage mothers have custody of their children even if they are underage. He’s fully capable of making all legal decisions for her as her bio parent even though he’s underage. It’s just legally assumed a mother has custody because the child came out of her uterus- an unmarried father has more hoops to jump through to get legal/physical custody. 
 

 I wonder if Jennifer (the Child’s mother) is paying child support to him/his parents or if they didn’t ask for it in exchange for getting full custody of Janelle. 

[RedDelicious]

12 hours ago, topanga said:

ETA: Travel guides rave about Gino’s cheesesteaks. But no one who lives in Philly likes them or gets their steaks from there.  

Truth.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

10 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

That’s  he is her father. Same reason teenage mothers have custody of their children even if they are underage. He’s fully capable of making all legal decisions for her as her bio parent even though he’s underage. It’s just legally assumed a mother has custody because the child came out of her uterus- an unmarried father has more hoops to jump through to get legal/physical custody. 
 

 I wonder if Janelle (the Child’s mother) is paying child support to him/his parents or if they didn’t ask for it in exchange for getting full custody of Jennifer. 

I think Janelle is the baby and the mother was Jan/Jen-something.

[ams1001]

1 minute ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

I think Janelle is the baby and the mother was Jan/Jen-something.

I think he said Jennifer. 
Janelle is definitely the baby.

[Scarlett45]

2 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

I think Janelle is the baby and the mother was Jan/Jen-something.

Just now, ams1001 said:

I think he said Jennifer. 
Janelle is definitely the baby.

Ah thank you both! Janelle is the baby, Jennifer is the mom. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

2 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Ah thank you both! Janelle is the baby, Jennifer is the mom. 

I wonder when Deja will come across Jennifer and experience immediate jealousy and/or confusion.  If they do meet, it will probably raise the abandonment issues Deja felt when her mother relinquished custody to the Pearsons, although both mothers may have made the right choice for their daughters.

Edited November 6, 2019 by ItCouldBeWorse

[bichonblitz]

4 hours ago, ByaNose said:

Hopefully, Deja will be going to college next year and we can see less of her, if possible.

Fingers crossed. I can't take much more of her and her perfect boyfriend who is still in high school and has a baby. 

[Scarlett45]

2 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

I wonder when Deja will come across Jennifer and experience immediate jealousy and/or confusion.  If they do meet, it will probably raise the abandonment issues Deja felt when her mother relinquished custody to the Pearsons, although both mothers may have made the right choice for their daughters.

I could see that. Also jealousy towards the baby- had Deja been placed for adoption as an infant(or had a bio father interested in full custody) her life would be very different.
 

It’s very clear her grandmother loved her a lot and did her best, but this is something that really irks me about the black community sometimes. Just because a woman gives birth doesn’t mean she’s interested in being a mother. Many many people have been raised by loving grandparents or elderly relatives, but it’s not the job of the elders to raise babies!!!! For a variety of reasons. If Deja’s mom was not interested in parenting Deja her grandmother should’ve encouraged adoption, and if it was intra-family (common in the black community) to a slightly older peer, NOT an elder (like herself). The notion that women will always “rise to the occasion” out of maternal instinct does kids in Deja’s position a disservice. Her life would be very different had her grandmother lived another decade. 

[ShadowFacts]

1 minute ago, Scarlett45 said:

I could see that. Also jealousy towards the baby- had Deja been placed for adoption as an infant(or had a bio father interested in full custody) her life would be very different.
 

It’s very clear her grandmother loved her a lot and did her best, but this is something that really irks me about the black community sometimes. Just because a woman gives birth doesn’t mean she’s interested in being a mother. Many many people have been raised by loving grandparents or elderly relatives, but it’s not the job of the elders to raise babies!!!! For a variety of reasons. If Deja’s mom was not interested in parenting Deja her grandmother should’ve encouraged adoption, and if it was intra-family (common in the black community) to a slightly older peer, NOT an elder (like herself). The notion that women will always “rise to the occasion” out of maternal instinct does kids in Deja’s position a disservice. Her life would be very different had her grandmother lived another decade. 

I get what you're saying, but in this episode, we saw her mother (whose name is escaping me) taking a decent amount of care to give her little girl a happy experience.  She may have been doing an adequate job with her own mother's help, until she later started more consistently bringing inappropriate men home and partying.  I think Deja loved not only her grandmother but her mother, and probably still does despite her giving her up at a pretty advanced age.  It's a complicated background she has and I feel for the character and think her challenges are at least as interesting as any of the other characters. 

[Scarlett45]

7 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I get what you're saying, but in this episode, we saw her mother (whose name is escaping me) taking a decent amount of care to give her little girl a happy experience.  She may have been doing an adequate job with her own mother's help, until she later started more consistently bringing inappropriate men home and partying.  I think Deja loved not only her grandmother but her mother, and probably still does despite her giving her up at a pretty advanced age.  It's a complicated background she has and I feel for the character and think her challenges are at least as interesting as any of the other characters. 

I think what we’ve gathered from the show (and again I could be wrong), is that Deja’s mom did care about her and show affection, but the “heavy lifting” of actually raising the girl fell on the grandmother’s shoulders. Deja’s Mom likely acted like an older sister or aunt that lived with them, loving, affectionate etc but her own wants and needs always came first with her- which wasn’t so bad* with the Grandmother healthy and able to pick up the slack. It was only when the Grandmother died things got bad because she was covering for the Mom’s lack of parenting if that makes sense. And with the Grandmother gone, Mom did NOT change. Mom did NOT rise to the occasion of being a committed parent even though at this point she wasn’t a teen any more, but a woman in her mid-late 20s! (I’m assuming problems started after the grandmother died and Deja is 14 now so Mom is 30). 

*bad for Deja

[Empress1]

51 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

On the weekend, he would have needed to take Janelle.  She's probably in daycare while he's supposed to be at school.

She said there was one other person who always spoke the truth (implying Randall) and then said she wasn't sure if Malik was telling her the truth, which made her statement about there being 2 people who told her the truth very awkward.

I think Deja said there was only one man she had ever known who told the truth (Randall); she stressed that the men her mother had dated always lied to her (Mom). I don't think she thought her mother and grandmother lied to her. (From her origin episode, we know her mother probably told her too much of the truth - "grown folks' business," as my elders would say.)

[Spartan Girl]

Jack: I can't teach my son to be black.

Me:

Oh Jack, there a million better things to say than that.  

Edited November 6, 2019 by Spartan Girl

[greekmom]

Like the other posters above I got a really weird vibe from Mr. Lawrence.  Not a grooming sort of vibe, but "I wish this kid was mine" vibe.  I think that's why Jack was really jealous.

The whole Deja dinner - meh. 

No Kate - yes!

No Kevin - boo! 😞

[doodlebug]

1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:

In this era of helicopter parenting and pearl clutchers, yes.  Back in the 70s when I was in school no parent was contacted to see why a child hadn't shown up for missing just one day of school.  No parent had to call in and say their "very special" child was home sick.  After a couple of days, sure.  But not immediately.  Not the very same day.  Of course back then there wasn't 24/7 of horrible news events either.  People weren't constantly inundated with negativity.

I fully expected Randall to be using the Dewey Decimal System.  Everyone uses the Dewey Decimal System.  Right?  Of course I am kidding.  Randall is very detail oriented. 

In general, I try and not judge people by their physical appearance.  I know I am no prize petunia and never hit the genetic lottery.

Back in the 70's, nobody had a cell phone; even answering machines were uncommon.   Many parents also worked in situations where they couldn't be easily reached by phone, since the only option is a land line.  So, even if a school did have a policy to notify parents of an unexcused absence, they wouldn't have been able to reach many people anyway.

I found this episode kinda dull and repetitious.  I didn't learn anything new about any of the characters and the storylines were just not hitting me.  The Deja/Malik storyline, which shows them to be starry eyed with little hearts floating over their heads like cartoon characters; isn't ringing true at all and their dialog is awful; sounds like a 40 year old's version of what two high school kids sound like.

[doodlebug]

1 hour ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

I also don't understand how a 15/16 year old would have received custody of an infant, unless he was emancipated.  Wouldn't his parents have been given custody until he reached his majority?  Doesn't the same issue occur when a parent dies and the oldest child is not yet 18 and can therefore not be the legal custodian for the younger siblings?  Is it different because he is Janelle's father, not her brother?  Can he make legal decisions for her, when he cannot even sign binding contracts for himself?

Teen girls are given custody of their babies all the time.  I can't imagine the law would be different for boys.  Teen parents are considered 'emancipated' at least insofar as all decision-making for their child.  Malik can take his daughter to the pediatrician, sign up for daycare for her, do anything else she needs, I suspect.

[kili]

Quote

I think what we’ve gathered from the show (and again I could be wrong), is that Deja’s mom did care about her and show affection, but the “heavy lifting” of actually raising the girl fell on the grandmother’s shoulders.

I think that Malik's parents are doing a better balancing job here. They have made it clear that Janelle is his responsibility. They will help out, but he must do the heavy lifting (e.g. it was him that had to leap to his feet when Janelle started crying and it's an exception that they babysit for him). Although they were devastated he became a parent so young, by allowing him to be the parent rather than an older sibling, he and Janelle will be better off in the long run.  They support but don't undermine him.

Deja's grandmother meant well and wanted to allow her daughter to be a normal child, but it set up a situation where her daughter never grew up and her granddaughter was not properly cared for after her death.  It's too bad she died too soon.

I wonder where Jennifer is. Maybe she left the school for a fresh start elsewhere. Malik talks about how everybody looks at him strangely since he became a parent. I imagine that Jennifer would get all that with an extra serving of "and then she gave up her own kid". 

There are ways of declining wine without sounding so judgmental that the host feels the need to drink in the pantry.  Although, hiding open bottles so you can drink on the sly in the pantry is sometimes a sign of other problems.

[Scarlett45]

15 minutes ago, kili said:

I think that Malik's parents are doing a better balancing job here. They have made it clear that Janelle is his responsibility. They will help out, but he must do the heavy lifting (e.g. it was him that had to leap to his feet when Janelle started crying and it's an exception that they babysit for him). Although they were devastated he became a parent so young, by allowing him to be the parent rather than an older sibling, he and Janelle will be better off in the long run.  They support but don't undermine him.

I agree with you. I also think Malik WANTS to be a full committed parent to the baby. Deja’s Mom did not.
 

The grandmother may have tried that technique (again, hoping her daughter would mature) and when it didn’t work (as in baby Deja would’ve been neglected), she could’ve thrown the Mom out and taken full custody (which I’ve found grandparents only tend to do when things are bad bad- like drugs or violence), or continue to let Deja be neglected (which she wasn’t going to do because she loved her and had morals). At the end of the day you cannot force someone to be a good parent.
 

I think Jennifer’s Mom likely transferred schools. There’s a lot of stigma around being a woman who doesn’t have custody of her biological child. 

[tennisgurl]

Mrs. Lawrence is so beautiful, and her outfit and accessories looked amazing on her, I swear I kept getting shallowly distracted from all of the awkwardness of the dinner! I liked that little bit where Randall asked if the Lawrence's could take him to the African heritage fair, and Rebecca told Randall not to impose (clearly seeing how uncomfortable Jack was) meanwhile Mr. Lawrence was all excited to take Randall with them, while Mrs. Lawrence clearly caught onto the vibe and told him to back off. It really did seem like he was thinking "this is exactly the kind of son I would want" and I think Jack picked up on that, as well as thinking that Randall was looking at him like he was just the kind of dad he would want. I get why they connected with each other, being the only black kid/teacher at the school apparently (and Randall even broke school rules because he wanted to show off for him) and him being a mentor to Randall is fine, just they really needed to set some boundaries here. 

Arranging the books by year of publication might sound cool and be kind of a fun project for a personal library, I feel like it would be a real pain for the students in a classroom, especially if they're actually looking for a specific book and just know the name and author and, shockingly, dont know when every book ever was published by exact year. You can just picture Lawrence and Randall geeking out about knowing the publication date of every book in the last century , doing their secret handshake, while the other kids in the class are just annoyed because "look I just want to find The Magicians Nephew I am so sorry I dont know when every book ever has been published and Google hasn't been invented yet."

Edited November 6, 2019 by tennisgurl

[ByaNose]

2 hours ago, ClareWalks said:

She's only 14, so probably not.

Boarding school?