S06.E03: Dead Man Running

[Trini]

Quote

Knowing that Crisis is only weeks away, Barry prepares a member of Team Flash for life without him while hunting a terrifying meta-human with an unquenchable thirst. Meanwhile, Ralph uncovers a family secret.

Sarah Boyd directed the episode written by Lauren Barnett & Thomas Pound.

Airdate: 10/22/2019

Edited October 20, 2019 by Trini

[Trini]

Behind the scenes pic:

[BeautifulFlower]

I can't believe it finally happened. Killer Frost was finally called out on something. She should've been called out on other stuff too, but I'll take this one time. FINALLY

Moving on. 

I didn't care for Ralph's plot. I'm sorry. I just couldn't.

I need more Joe.

Allegra is not entitled to know everything Iris.

[phoenics]

So - is it gonna be The Flash/Barry teaming up every week with KF?

Like is she in the Nora position this year?  Or will Barry have "very special couple of episodes" with Cisco too?

The writers seem to be focused on preparing the team in case Barry dies and I'm sitting here wondering how he's gonna prepare his damn wife.  The way this is playing out feels inorganic and unnatural.

Hero or not - a man knowing he's gonna die in months would be spending as much time with his wife as possible.

This episode felt scattered to me and ungrounded emotionally.

And about the new Wells - what the hell is Eternium?  And why would be any traces be found on Iris?  Is it coming from Barry and since Iris is near him a lot some found its way on her?  And Nash Wells acted like he knew Iris - is she someone he knows on his Earth?

Edited October 23, 2019 by phoenics

[SevenStars]

I love Ralph and his Mom. I have really been enjoying Ralph. 

I wanted more Cisco/Iris. 

Wallace is trying hard with KF. I wish I cared enough to appreciate his effort. Instead, it just annoys me. 

I love Ramsey and Barry's scene in the lab. Good acting on both their parts.

Looking forward to Iris' relationship with her co-workers. 

I miss Joe. 

This episode was mostly boring and wasn't as good as the others.

Edited October 23, 2019 by SevenStars

[Jediknight]

The show hit the jackpot with Hartley Sawyer.  And Panabaker is having so much fun as Frost.

But the true highlight of this episode is Barry being a giant dork with his dancing.

[Lantern7]

Heavy episode. It's offset by Frost's first birthday party, which gives most of the cast an excuse to dork things up. A mini-rave at STAR Labs? Hey, why not? The clock is ticking after all.

Looks like Ramsey has a nifty superpower in seemingly controlling Dark Matter. Better than anything ability I can remember ol' D'ohinder had on Heroes. The bit where he got the zombie to back off was pretty funny and clever.

Hey, another Wells! *sigh* At least this one doesn't look like a paper-thin character like Sherloque or any of the Council of Wellses.

Hey . .  .two years ago, who would've thought Ralph could carry a subplot? The guy might as well be animated fungus instead of stretchy. Dude grows on you.

[UNOSEZ]

I loved the scene with Barry and Ramsey... Ralph really has grown on me... Frost was ok.. More Joe... What is eternium?  Is it just another name for something else we know about.. New reporter is being a new reporter... 

[BeautifulFlower]

15 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

I loved the scene with Barry and Ramsey... Ralph really has grown on me... Frost was ok.. More Joe... What is eternium?  Is it just another name for something else we know about.. New reporter is being a new reporter... 

Spoiler

Apparently its some kind of rock from the 30th century in the comics.

[SimoneS]

Eternium was the best part of the episode. I will post about it on the spoiler thread.

[phoenics]

7 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Eternium was the best part of the episode. I will post about it on the spoiler thread.

*screams loudly*

[quarks]

No, these repeated reminders that all of us need to tune in on December 10th aren't clumsy and obvious at all, Flash.

[RedVitC]

Some initial thoughts:

It wasn’t bad, but I admit that after two really emotional episodes this fell kinda flat emotionally speaking (for me I mean). Why spend an entire episode on someone thinking they’re going to die when Barry already decided he’s going to sacrifice himself for everyone if the need arises? It broke the momentum.

You know Iris also has some experience in living while knowing the date she might die, so they could have taken the opportunity to have Iris and Frost actually team up. I know not everyone is keen on seeing those two interact, but I feel like if they want to sell this family team dynamic they're gonna have to have either Iris and Caitlin or Iris and Frost interact more.

Speaking of, it's a bit strange that Barry and iris haven't themselves talked about when Iris was sort of in Barry's shoes in s3. (It was only referenced with the the newspaper name changing back to Iris West-Allen)

But if we’re not talking emotionally, it was an ok episode. (this all sounds more negative than I feel. I thought it as an entertaining episode overall, just not as good as the first two)

I feel like I keep talking about A, B and C plots, but  the A, B and C plot never connected. They were completely separate and that didn’t work for me. I like that they’re working to give everyone something to do, but I dislike that they don’t even try to make the cases flow together and just randomly smush three different disconnected stories in one episode.

The eternium and Iris….very, very interesting. I think that will come back. It didn’t feel to me like the new Wells (whom I liked) knew Iris.

I’m not sure how much I’m connecting with Allegra yet, but I think she could be an interesting character and it’s been a while since we’ve had a recurring character on the show from whom they need to keep Barry’s secret, so that should be interesting. And I love mentor Iris. And I love Iris building the citizen. And the Iris and Cisco team up.

But….I’ll agree that both Barry and Iris felt a little unnatural this episode. We think Barry might disappear soon….let’s go do our day jobs then, see ya tonight sweetie! I understand that they can’t just have Barry and iris sitting at home or just them being together and they have things to do, but even adding little touches like them messaging or calling each other more than usual or Iris looking at a picture of Barry throughout the day or something would have gone some way in showing that it’s not business as usual.

I did like that it was them together telling the team both times. But I think Barry and Iris should have told Joe first.

[scarynikki12]

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

what the hell is Eternium?

You know how Kryptonite is a mineral from the remains of the planet Krypton? Well Eternium is a mineral from the planet Eternia! (No it's not I just couldn't miss a He-Man reference).

[phoenics]

1 minute ago, scarynikki12 said:

You know how Kryptonite is a mineral from the remains of the planet Krypton? Well Eternium is a mineral from the planet Eternia! (No it's not I just couldn't miss a He-Man reference).

Haha!  I figured it out, 🙂

I was hoping it was what I thought it was and it was!  Over in the spoiler thread we're discussing it.

[Lady Calypso]

I almost want to look up what Eternium is...but at the same time, I also kind of want to see how the show explains it. So....definitely going to try to hold off for as long as possible because it sounds interesting.

This season is really shaping up to be a great one. A formidable villain with an actually decent motive, some fun character interactions, and just an overall better vibe than the last few seasons for me.

I'm glad Barry and Iris came clean at the end of the episodes. Yes, guys, get those secrets out in the open! Learn something!

The KF stuff isn't....bad, per say. I don't care, but Danielle Panabaker looks like she's having a blast, at least. 

The Ralph family stuff was so weird, but it did somewhat come together in the end. Sorry, though, Ralph. Still don't care about your plot with your mother. But I do like Ralph and think Hartley Sawyer did a great job.

Ok....new Wells? He's actually the best reiteration of a Wells since season 2 Harry...but not season 4 Harry. That guy was weird. 

Anyway, Indiana Wells  (sorry, Nash Wells) is fairly awesome and I loved his interactions with Iris and Cisco. It worked for me. Also a plus? No gravelly Batman voice or weird accent! 

Ramsey is a villain who I actually do not mind at all. I like how clear his motives are and, despite the fact that it's another person who knows Barry's secret, I liked their talk.  

[Bulldog]

57 minutes ago, quarks said:

No, these repeated reminders that all of us need to tune in on December 10th aren't clumsy and obvious at all, Flash.

When Barry said that the Crisis had been moved up to December 10, 2019, I was half expecting him to look directly into the camera and say "Check your local listings."

[BeautifulFlower]

Oh wow. Didn't even realize it. This episode basically did tell us again, that Killer Frost already have a life. She knows all these people. So this whole wanting to live a life and not knowing how things is still FORCED IMO.

[SevenStars]

6 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Oh wow. Didn't even realize it. This episode basically did tell us again, that Killer Frost already have a life. She knows all these people. So this whole wanting to live a life and not knowing how things is still FORCED IMO.

Yeah, the writers are so determine to make KF happens that they keep contradicting themselves. This time it was just one episode ago. 

Anyway, they can't fix this KF. They should just kill her off during the cross-over and bring a new one from another earth. One they can truly start from scratch with. 

[adora721]

1 hour ago, RedVitC said:

I know not everyone is keen on seeing those two interact, but I feel like if they want to sell this family team dynamic they're gonna have to have either Iris and Caitlin or Iris and Frost interact more.

That would require them to actually make eye contact. That hasn't happened since S4. They say lines to each other without making eye contact; doesn't seem like that's changing.

Loved the "Killer Caitlin" line from Ramsey.

Liked that Barry rose his voice to KF, but he needed to do that to Caitlin a long time ago.

Edited October 23, 2019 by adora721

[Brinny]

Some random thoughts:

While I still don’t care about this whole Killer Frost needs to be a real girl storyline, I’ve got to say that that at least she’s more entertaining than Caitlin. I mean, that bar is pretty low since OATMEAL is more entertaining than Caitlin, but I’ll take it.

Um. How did Ralph never figure out that his mom was lying about all her boyfriends dying? Or not at least suspect her just a little bit of maybe killing them? Yikes. I understand he’s supposed to be kind of loveably stupid (which is a fun turnaround from when his character was first introduced), but he was also a cop. He’s currently a PI. It drives me batty when writers Flanderize characters to the point of being too dumb to function (see: Eric Matthews) and I really hope that’s not going to be the case with Ralph. All that being said, Hartley Sawyer is a delight.

I hate so much that I enjoy Tom Cavanagh, because the constant revamping of Wells annoys me to no end. Le sigh.

For the most part though, I think this episode fell a little flat. The Bloodwork storyline hasn’t grabbed me too much yet and while I do appreciate the show pairing off different characters, it seemed like there was A LOT going on, but with nothing actually happening? Iris and Cisco investigating the new Wells, Barry and Frost investigating Ramsay (with a bonus of Frost doing her best Anya impression and discovering that feelings are a real thing), Cecile and Ralph investigating his mom, blah, blah, blah, random rave at Team Flash’s SECRET HIDEOUT with Norvak DJing?! before finally addressing the fact that Barry’s gonna die, which should probably be at the forefront going forward, no?

All in all, not my favourite. 

[tennisgurl]

Not as good as the last two weeks, but still a pretty decent episode, I am liking how this season is shaping out...even with the super non subtle countdown to Crisis. "Its been moved to December 10th...check your local listings!"

Barry's dorky dancing remains one of my favorite things ever, and him and Iris dancing together was cute. Not as much Iris and Barry as the law few episodes (booo) but I was happy that they told the team together that Barry was knocking on heavens door. I feel like they should want to spend as much time together as possible, knowing that Barry is supposed to die soon. Of course, Iris was also supposed to die not too long ago and that worked out alright! They really need to tell Joe though.

The plot with Ralph and his mom was kind of random, but I thought it was fun and Ralph has really grown on me a lot. I was glad that he forgave his mom pretty quickly, and seeing her does explain a lot of Ralph and his personality, and its nice that he had a sweet ending with her, especially with Crisis still looming. 

Was that the stretch eye meta as the DJ? Thats pretty hilarious, but these "Killer Frost learns to be a real girl" plots are pretty meh for him. Killer Frost has never really worked as a character/concept for me, even as the show has tried really hard to justify her continued existence, so while I dont hate her stuff, and DP does a pretty job with her (especially when she realized that Barry was going to die) but its just filler most of the time. 

So we get our new Wells, and its Indiana Wells this time! Loved Iris tasing him, and he does at least seem like more fun than Sherlock Wells at least. Boy, will he feel stupid when he finds out that magic is totally real in this universe! Yeah, tell Constantine that magic and gods are totally not real, and see how that goes over. 

Ramsey is a promising villain and I loved his talk with Barry, it was really well acted by both actors and it was a nice way to draw a parallel between the hero and the villain. Both have a death sentence hanging over their heads, but while Barry tries to do good while he can and try to deal with whats coming, Ramsey is fighting so hard against death that he is doing increasingly sketchy things. He is sympathetic and does seem to have good intentions for now, but he is clearly close to slipping down the villain slope. 

Not as emotionally strong as the last two episodes, but hopefully with the whole team knowing whats happening (yea honesty!!!) we will get more next week.

[AnimeMania]

Wow, i thought this episode was horrible and pointless. Did they find enough proof to keep Dibny's mother out of jail. Why did the pawn store guy frame her, do I really care?

Cisco's boring and weak since he lost his powers. Wells came back.

Dead, dark matter balloon goes pop and scientist scrapes up the drippings.

So many people wandered in through S.T.A.R. Labs lax security that they decided to throw them a party.

[Trini]

More thoughts later,

5 hours ago, RedVitC said:

I feel like I keep talking about A, B and C plots, but  the A, B and C plot never connected. They were completely separate and that didn’t work for me. I like that they’re working to give everyone something to do, but I dislike that they don’t even try to make the cases flow together and just randomly smush three different disconnected stories in one episode.

Agreed.

I appreciate that they are splitting up the cast and trying to give them all stories, but only the Barry/Frost/Ramsey A-plot really amounted to anything. Iris dealing with her employee and introducing the new Wells (*SIGH*) was the better of the other 'meh' subplots. Hartley didn't deserve this badly written subplot with a unimpressive actress. Joe, Cecile, and Cisco had nothing to do.

Not even going to get gifs of Carlos dancing, and he's like the best in the cast!

But to end with a positive note, I thought the A-plot with Barry and Ramsey dealing with death in different ways really worked.

[thuganomics85]

Ramsey is definitely shaping up to be one of the better villains on this show in quite some time.  The scene between him and Barry and how both of them view impending death in opposite, but understandable ways was actually pretty well done.  Plus, it certainly helps that Sendhil Ramamurthy is compelling and certainly is doing better than whatever the hell Chris Klein was attempting to do at this point last year.

Still not that impressed with the Killer Frost stuff, especially since it felt like a retread of all the Nora stuff last season (hell, not to mention the Ralph stuff two years ago) where Barry suddenly finds himself having to be a mentor for an unruly partner.  It just feels like the show really likes to keep dipping their toes into this particular pool and it has grown tiresome.

At long last (well, not really) Tom Cavanagh has shown his face again as "Nash" Wells.  Who basically should be called "Indiana Wells" for all intents and purposes.  Hopefully he'll be fun.  He does get brownie points for thinking that the Council of Wells are a bunch of dicks!

The story with Ralph and him mom kind of felt random and like the writers just didn't know how to fill out the episode, but credit to Hartley Sawyer for selling it.

Even if she was right about Iris keeping secrets, Allegra should know that the newbies usually have to put in some grunt work first before they get the big damn stories.  If she doesn't believe Iris about that, she could always ask Kara as well!

Glad Barry already came clean to most of Team Flash, but he better tell Joe (and Cecile) soon.

[ottoDbusdriver]

So ..... many ..... pep talks.

I'm just so bored with the Killer Frost/Killer Caitlin stuff.

I thought Cecile became a public defender to defend metahumans -- is there something about Ralph's mom we don't know about ?

[Starry]

10 hours ago, phoenics said:

Hero or not - a man knowing he's gonna die in months would be spending as much time with his wife as possible.

This conversation needs to happen or this entire pre-Crisis story won't work for me. I am willing to let it pass for now because it has only been one episode but if every other episode is gonna be about Barry preparing a team member to function without the Flash with no focus on what matters to him the most as a human being, his wife/family, then I am going to have a problem.

I also disliked how Barry and Iris seemed to be in the acceptance stage already. It's like they are waiting for him to die. I don't get how every episode with Barry and CaitFrost in the A plot has to have minimal WestAllen.

8 hours ago, RedVitC said:

The eternium and Iris….very, very interesting. I think that will come back. It didn’t feel to me like the new Wells (whom I liked) knew Iris.

I don't think he knew her. When he said "It's you" he was probably saying that he was getting Eternium readings off of her.

2 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Still not that impressed with the Killer Frost stuff, especially since it felt like a retread of all the Nora stuff last season (hell, not to mention the Ralph stuff two years ago) where Barry suddenly finds himself having to be a mentor for an unruly partner.  It just feels like the show really likes to keep dipping their toes into this particular pool and it has grown tiresome.

I was having Ralph and Nora flashbacks as well and I didn't like it one bit. I hope Barry won't have to team up with her in every episode. Immature characters like Frost just bring him down. The scenes with Ramsey were a nice break.

I didn't like Allegra bossing Iris but I think they need to explore the possible conflicts that may arise with Iris working at the Citizen and with Team Flash at the same time.

[Lady Calypso]

1 hour ago, Starry said:

I didn't like Allegra bossing Iris but I think they need to explore the possible conflicts that may arise with Iris working at the Citizen and with Team Flash at the same time.

I didn't love it either, but the one thing about the Allegra/Iris scene is that I think it WAS needed, in order to make Iris a better boss, a better leader. Because, yeah, we all know that trying to keep a secret on this show is damn near impossible, especially The Flash secret, but the one thing that Iris should be doing to stand out is being as truthful as possible. With Iris' role on Team Flash, there's no way Allegra wouldn't see the weird and the magical, especially as Allegra is a meta herself. So, with Iris trying to default to not telling Allegra the truth, her pointing out that she doesn't want to work for someone who's dishonest, it becomes less about Allegra being right and more about Iris finding a better way to lead in order to be the best that she can be.

So, when I personally look at it from that angle, it works. And Iris still got to keep some things to herself while getting Allegra to come back to work the next day, so that's a plus! 

[phoenics]

2 hours ago, Starry said:

This conversation needs to happen or this entire pre-Crisis story won't work for me. I am willing to let it pass for now because it has only been one episode but if every other episode is gonna be about Barry preparing a team member to function without the Flash with no focus on what matters to him the most as a human being, his wife/family, then I am going to have a problem.

In S3 when Barry found out about Iris dying, it had a material and immediate impact on him.  He couldn't and didn't just shake it off - not even in one episode.  It bothered him for the rest of that episode and then a whole other episode before he worked up the courage to tell Iris the truth and then Iris convinced him they needed help and to tell the team (but not her dad).

But this impact feels neutered already.  

Also - KF really does drag The Flash down.  

Oh, that's right.  I'm supposed to forget KF's entire murderous past.  *side-eye*

That's the other part that still bothers me.  This would be the PERFECT time for Barry to have a stern talking to at KF to make sure she never turns on Iris again - KF still hasn't shown any remorse for that. You'd think Barry would be worried that he couldn't trust KF to keep his family (Iris) safe.

But noooooo.  KF is "reformed" without ever having a redemption arc. The hell.

Quote

I also disliked how Barry and Iris seemed to be in the acceptance stage already. It's like they are waiting for him to die. I don't get how every episode with Barry and CaitFrost in the A plot has to have minimal WestAllen.

This episode made me think that the writers are pushing KF into the Nora role as I mentioned in my first post, or that Flash will also have these kinds of episodes with Cisco and Ralph too.  But since I don't know if there are gonna be any Cisco scenes with Barry that suck up an entire episode (with no real payoff to be honest), this KF/Flash interaction felt like a consolation prize for a particular part of the fandom.  I even disliked the way they wrote Iris coming up to Barry/KF at the end like she was the intruder into a topic that she and Barry should have been centered in.  Instead - we get Iris seemingly not affected by this storyline at all until the very end.  And we also got almost NO WestAllen the entire episode.  At first I thought they were gonna end the episode with Barry/KF having that chat and I was ready to throw something at the tv and start picketing outside of Eric Wallace's office.

With the flashbacks and Barry's visions of the future, etc., I feel a little manipulated by the order of the characters and weird dubbing issues (see last week). I always wonder at WHO is the editor - because they have always been anti-Iris (usually cutting her scenes and even her scenes with Barry).  I know folks don't want WA fans to focus on the weird Cisco/Caitlin dub fail last week, but I'm getting weird editing vibes this week too.

Quote

I didn't like Allegra bossing Iris but I think they need to explore the possible conflicts that may arise with Iris working at the Citizen and with Team Flash at the same time.

I remember in S2 or S3 when Iris was faced with a dilemma of knowing a truth about The Flash but not writing about it and skirting censure from her editor (Scott at the time) for it.  Now she's the one in charge and having to navigate that.  I find it interesting and a better story to focus on.

Edited October 23, 2019 by phoenics

[Trini]

With this episode I'm firmly convinced that Crisis and this new Wells are the reasons that the writers de-powered Cisco. They want to have surprises and reveals - not just for the audience but the characters in the story too - and if Cisco had his 'vibing' ability, he would easily know all the secrets. He would be able to feel the disruptions in the multiverse.

I'd like him to get his powers back after this whole arc is over, but I'm not counting on it.

[UNOSEZ]

4 minutes ago, Trini said:

With this episode I'm firmly convinced that Crisis and this new Wells are the reasons that the writers de-powered Cisco. They want to have surprises and reveals - not just for the audience but the characters in the story too - and if Cisco had his 'vibing' ability, he would easily know all the secrets. He would be able to feel the disruptions in the multiverse.

I'd like him to get his powers back after this whole arc is over, but I'm not counting on it.

That makes more sense than him all of a sudden deciding his powers were a burden and he needed to need himself

[SevenStars]

18 minutes ago, phoenics said:

In S3 when Barry found out about Iris dying, it had a material and immediate impact on him.  He couldn't and didn't just shake it off - not even in one episode.  It bothered him for the rest of that episode and then a whole other episode before he worked up the courage to tell Iris the truth and then Iris convinced him they needed help and to tell the team (but not her dad).

You are correct and I think the reason is because to the writers Iris is IT for Barry. Just the idea of losing Iris is impossible for Barry to deal with or accept. This is why when Iris is in danger,  the writers show Barry ignoring everyone and everything in order to protect/save her. It is so much part of Barry that it feels force/unnatural in the few instances where he doesn't show  too much concern when Iris is hurt or in danger. 

But with Iris, it is different. She has know from the jump that she was going to lose Barry. She has lost Barry more than once and he came back. I think her being the daughter of a cop, being use to loving someone who has a risky job, and now being married to one, has made her more accepting of lose. 

With all that said, I hate the writing of her already accepting Barry's death. I think it was done so the focus is taking off her and towards the other characters. Because Barry would not have been, and it wouldn't have been realistic for Barry to focus on others while Iris was fighting it.

Also, they might just being doing it this way so that when the time come it will impact Iris more because she hadn't really accepted that Barry was going to die. She was just going along with it to make it easier for Barry to do what he needs to do. 

[adora721]

10 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

The story with Ralph and him mom kind of felt random and like the writers just didn't know how to fill out the episode, but credit to Hartley Sawyer for selling it.

I don't think it was random. It explains why Ralph (and his mom) have relationship and committment issues. It's a setup for

Spoiler

Ralph to open himself up to love with Sue once she makes an appearance. 

[adora721]

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

But since I don't know if there are gonna be any Cisco scenes with Barry that suck up an entire episode (with no real payoff to be honest), this KF/Flash interaction felt like a consolation prize for a particular part of the fandom. 

There will be a Cisco/Barry episode since 

Spoiler

Barry is going to anoint Cisco as the new team leader. 

I agree that the Flash/Frost plot in this episode, and the one next week, is a gift of sorts to the SB fandom. I'm actually glad it's coming this early; it gives me hope that there won't be too much of that in the season. 

[Brinny]

I think you have a point @SevenStars with respect to Barry’s willingness to do anything and everything for Iris, but just 2 seasons ago we also had Iris going to therapy over the fact that Barry left her to go into the speed force, so it does seem a little weird that both she’s so blasé about Barry’s death. 

[UNOSEZ]

1 hour ago, Brinny said:

I think you have a point @SevenStars with respect to Barry’s willingness to do anything and everything for Iris, but just 2 seasons ago we also had Iris going to therapy over the fact that Barry left her to go into the speed force, so it does seem a little weird that both she’s so blasé about Barry’s death. 

Shock and fatigue maybe.. They've both had to deal at some point with the idea of going on without the other.. Iris has already done it when Barry went into the speed force... Plus part of her has known that by 2024 Barry would dissapear pretty much forever.. They also still just lost Nora.. So quite a bit of blows.. Maybe they're a tad numb for a bit before they eventually get up to fight

[Chicago Redshirt]

16 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Ramsey is a villain who I actually do not mind at all. I like how clear his motives are and, despite the fact that it's another person who knows Barry's secret, I liked their talk.  

Does Ramsey actually know Barry's secret? I was under the impression that Barry was just a STAR Lab scientist to him. The notion of Ramsey thinking (at this point, anyway) that he could prevent the Flash from stopping him from stealing STAR Lab's dark matter seems odd, and I don't remember a point at which Barry openly used his speed in front of Ramsey or anyone told him about Flash=Barry.

[Lady Calypso]

5 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Does Ramsey actually know Barry's secret? I was under the impression that Barry was just a STAR Lab scientist to him. The notion of Ramsey thinking (at this point, anyway) that he could prevent the Flash from stopping him from stealing STAR Lab's dark matter seems odd, and I don't remember a point at which Barry openly used his speed in front of Ramsey or anyone told him about Flash=Barry.

I...thought he did. I guess it was never explicitly stated, but maybe I'm totally wrong on this point. I think it's the confusion because Ramsey had interactions with both The Flash and Barry this episode so maybe I just missed a few lines of dialogue or misinterpreted the situation. Or maybe I'm just misremembering Ramsey having interactions with The Flash in general. Maybe I'm just dumb.

At this point, with how many people know Barry's secret, I just thought they gave up on the onscreen reveal and decided to just go with Ramsey knowing about Barry being The Flash and not making it a big deal.

Edited October 23, 2019 by Lady Calypso

[phoenics]

3 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

Shock and fatigue maybe.. They've both had to deal at some point with the idea of going on without the other.. Iris has already done it when Barry went into the speed force... Plus part of her has known that by 2024 Barry would dissapear pretty much forever.. They also still just lost Nora.. So quite a bit of blows.. Maybe they're a tad numb for a bit before they eventually get up to fight

But this is exactly why Iris should be feeling this a LOT more and why she should be now DESPERATE to get pregnant before Barry "dies".  Because otherwise - no Barry AND no Nora.  Half of how she was coping with Nora dying was because she knew eventually she'd get to see her again, even if she wasn't exactly the Nora she'd lost.

Instead - we are less than 2 months out and Iris doesn't seem concerned about the fact that she's not pregnant at all.

So for me, the writers making Iris seem unconcerned feels like they switched directions.  Just in episode 1 Iris was a mess over Nora and then in episode 2 she finds out about Barry and now in this episode it's just ... disconnected.

I call MAJOR FOUL if Iris never brings up Nora again or the fact that she's not pregnant.  The writers created this situation and it would just be beyond foul to keep acting like Westallen is asexual for whatever stupid and misguided reasons they keep doing that.

Edited October 23, 2019 by phoenics

[phoenics]

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

I...thought he did. I guess it was never explicitly stated, but maybe I'm totally wrong on this point. I think it's the confusion because Ramsey had interactions with both The Flash and Barry this episode so maybe I just missed a few lines of dialogue or misinterpreted the situation. Or maybe I'm just misremembering Ramsey having interactions with The Flash in general. Maybe I'm just dumb.

At this point, with how many people know Barry's secret, I just thought they gave up on the onscreen reveal and decided to just go with Ramsey knowing about Barry being The Flash and not making it a big deal.

I kinda zoned out in this episode a few times (I was bored with it mostly), but the part where suddenly both Ramsey and Barry were talking about them both dying - I was like - did Barry tell Ramsey he's the flash and I missed it?

Did he?

I thought for a minute that when Ramsey recognized Caitlin as KF that he was gonna look at Flash and say "Barry Allen"?  But I don't remember if Barry ever revealed himself to be The Flash.

[SevenStars]

12 minutes ago, phoenics said:

I kinda zoned out in this episode a few times (I was bored with it mostly), but the part where suddenly both Ramsey and Barry were talking about them both dying - I was like - did Barry tell Ramsey he's the flash and I missed it?

Did he?

I thought for a minute that when Ramsey recognized Caitlin as KF that he was gonna look at Flash and say "Barry Allen"?  But I don't remember if Barry ever revealed himself to be The Flash.

Barry didn't reveal himself as The Flash to Ramsey. This is why Ramsey was confident in challenging Barry to stop him from taking the dark matters. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

14 minutes ago, phoenics said:

but the part where suddenly both Ramsey and Barry were talking about them both dying - I was like - did Barry tell Ramsey he's the flash and I missed it?

No. Ramsey told Barry that Barry had the look of someone who knew he was dying---, or rather, he had the same look and said the same thing his mother did when talking about his coming death.

No mention that he was the Flash.

Edited October 23, 2019 by GHScorpiosRule

[Starry]

7 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I didn't love it either, but the one thing about the Allegra/Iris scene is that I think it WAS needed, in order to make Iris a better boss, a better leader. Because, yeah, we all know that trying to keep a secret on this show is damn near impossible, especially The Flash secret, but the one thing that Iris should be doing to stand out is being as truthful as possible. With Iris' role on Team Flash, there's no way Allegra wouldn't see the weird and the magical, especially as Allegra is a meta herself. So, with Iris trying to default to not telling Allegra the truth, her pointing out that she doesn't want to work for someone who's dishonest, it becomes less about Allegra being right and more about Iris finding a better way to lead in order to be the best that she can be.

So, when I personally look at it from that angle, it works. And Iris still got to keep some things to herself while getting Allegra to come back to work the next day, so that's a plus! 

I didn't like how Allegra went about it but I also feel like Iris used her photographic evidence for Team Flash reasons and that didn't sit well with me either. I don't think she ever intended to write a story about Wells and since Allegra knows nothing about Team Flash I thought she wasn't completely in the wrong even though I wasn't feeling her attitude.

Aside from what you are saying and what I posted earlier, I think there needs to be more balance between Iris using her job at the Citizen and her leads to help Team Flash and Iris using her Team Flash resources to report and inform and alert the citizens.

6 hours ago, phoenics said:

This episode made me think that the writers are pushing KF into the Nora role as I mentioned in my first post, or that Flash will also have these kinds of episodes with Cisco and Ralph too. 

Pushing KF into the Nora role would only make me stop watching. I hated how they wrote the Nora arc last season and Barry doesn't need another meta partner with teenage angst. Frost is not his kid/little sister and I can't bear the thought of more episodes like this one. This kind of story didn't work with Barry's actual child, it definitely won't work with this overgrown teen.

I think Barry will have episodes like this one with Cisco and Ralph since he mentioned something about starting with Frost which implies he'll prepare the others as well. The problem is that Barry training every team member is not my favorite way of approaching the situation as it looks like the writers are checking things off a list instead of writing a more character-driven plot. Season 3 followed a similar pattern with changing the headlines as a way to change the future and save Iris but it also had WestAllen loft scenes close or open every episode. Barry and Iris weren't always in the A plot together but the writers made sure to check in on them and their feelings. This one didn't have any of that. If this pattern is going to continue until episode x when the writers finally remember they have to focus on Iris after being done with Frost/Ralph/Cisco I am going to have a problem. Sure, put Frost/Cisco/Ralph in the A plot but don't press pause on Iris and Barry's emotions when he's dying in weeks!

7 hours ago, phoenics said:

I even disliked the way they wrote Iris coming up to Barry/KF at the end like she was the intruder into a topic that she and Barry should have been centered in. 

I am mostly okay with how that scene played out. Imagine how bad it would have been if Iris hadn't shown up at all and Frost had offered Barry to tell the team together like they are the married couple and not Barry/Iris.

7 hours ago, phoenics said:

With the flashbacks and Barry's visions of the future, etc., I feel a little manipulated by the order of the characters and weird dubbing issues (see last week).

What I got from the flashbacks is that Barry doesn't give a crap about Caitlin. When thinking about the people he loves he's keeping in the dark he only flashes back to Frost. Since those two aren't intercheangeable I guess Caitlin stopped being a factor the moment Frost took over. But I agree that what happened last week was weird.

[rmontro]

Did it look like Wells (Tom Cavanagh, actually) gained some weight?

[Chicago Redshirt]

The writers gave (by their standards) a relatively subtle shout-out to the comic Crisis on Infinite Earths with the name of Ralph's mom's boyfriend, Marv Perez. Crisis was written by Marv Wolfman and illustrated by George Perez. 

[rogvortex58]

So just to confirm, that guy was technically a zombie, because he was being controlled by Bloodwork. So they didn’t actually kill him since he was already dead.

[tennisgurl]

I did chuckle at the undead meta being named Romero. Zombies...George Romero...director of many zombie movies most notably Night of The Living Dead. Yeah, I what you did there, show. 

[DearEvette]

On 10/22/2019 at 10:18 PM, RedVitC said:

I feel like I keep talking about A, B and C plots, but  the A, B and C plot never connected. They were completely separate and that didn’t work for me. I like that they’re working to give everyone something to do, but I dislike that they don’t even try to make the cases flow together and just randomly smush three different disconnected stories in one episode.

I Didn't mind this so much because sometimes it becomes just too neat to have all the A, B and C plots converge.  And it was nice to see the mix up of the cast.  And honestly, I have a feeling that these will all converge at some point later on.

On 10/22/2019 at 10:57 PM, Lady Calypso said:

Anyway, Indiana Wells  (sorry, Nash Wells) is fairly awesome and I loved his interactions with Iris and Cisco. It worked for me. Also a plus? No gravelly Batman voice or weird accent! 

Most promising Wells since Earth-2 Wells.  The scenes with these three were fun.

On 10/23/2019 at 9:15 AM, Lady Calypso said:

... the Allegra/Iris scene is that I think it WAS needed, in order to make Iris a better boss, a better leader. Because, yeah, we all know that trying to keep a secret on this show is damn near impossible, especially The Flash secret, but the one thing that Iris should be doing to stand out is being as truthful as possible. With Iris' role on Team Flash, there's no way Allegra wouldn't see the weird and the magical, especially as Allegra is a meta herself. So, with Iris trying to default to not telling Allegra the truth, her pointing out that she doesn't want to work for someone who's dishonest, it becomes less about Allegra being right and more about Iris finding a better way to lead in order to be the best that she can be.

Honestly, I was not here for how that all played out.  I think it would have come off better if Allegra had approached Iris with something like the idea that Iris was trying to steal her story or something like that.  The way it read to me, Allegra came off as assumptive and a little entitled.  Yes, Iris should be truthful with her employee, but there is a difference between telling someone the truth and not telling them something because it really is not their business.  Allegra moved that conversation from the professional to a personal one, making a value judgement about Iris when she doesn't know Iris all that well.

On 10/22/2019 at 9:10 PM, SevenStars said:

I love Ralph and his Mom. I have really been enjoying Ralph.

This episode was mostly boring and wasn't as good as the others.

I enjoyed the Ralph subplot. 

I agree this was not a barn burner of an episode.  There were parts I liked but overall not as strong as the previous two.

I did like the scene between Barry and Ramsey.  Also Sendhil is just such a charismatic actor he is selling Ramsey's specific brand of not-yet-villain villain very well.

It is curious that we are seeing so much KF and very little Caitlin. Honestly, it tells me that the show simply doesn't have anything to say for Caitlin.  Which is pretty sad commentary for an original character to the show.

[SevenStars]

30 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

Honestly, it tells me that the show simply doesn't have anything to say for Caitlin.  Which is pretty sad commentary for an original character to the show.

I think it has been like this for the past few seasons where Caitlin/KF are concern. At this point, I think the main reason we are seeing more KF than Caitlin is probably because DP enjoy playing her and she is much more love than Caitlin in the fandom. 

[Trini]

Hee!

This reminds of that convention the cast attended, and they said they see the same plot holes we see.

The scene was silly, but I did want some fun this season -especially for Barry & Iris - even though (or because) things would be sad/tense because of the upcoming Crisis and Barry's disappearance.

Plus, all that dancing they do in between takes is now canon! (I needed more Cisco/Carlos though.)

Cute!