S15.E01: Back and to the Future

[Commando Cody]

Something about Demon Jack seemed like a nod to Demon Crowley from the Amazon series 'Good Omens'.  Maybe it was only that they both have to wear sunglasses, but the attitude also came off as similar. 

[Aeryn13]

10 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Absolutely.  That's why it made no sense for her to take the time to run from another part of the house into and then through the kitchen (past other doors and/or windows leading outside) specifically to get into the garage unless she was planning to drive away.  I doubt that was the closest exit.  *shrugs*

Obviously they had to be there because Dabb wanted an inside scene where Sam went into the clown house and there needed to be two PiPs to rescue for the further scenes. 

Now to a degree that is normal, all the things in scripts happen because the writer needs to get from point A to point B in terms of what kind of scenes he wants.  In that vein I can even understand why Dean got the babysitter job for Demon!Jack because if he had been there with Sam instead of Cas, we couldn`t get to the scene with the bullet wound reading and the flash of exposition and foreboding and so on and so forth.

What separates a good script from a bad script is that a good script will make those transitions look and feel natural. People will be in a certain place at a certain time not because everyone watching it can see "that`s how the script wanted it" but because it makes sense for them in the story to be there so people outside of the story can roll with it and become engrossed in the story, forgetting it is all a script in the first place.  

[Lunula]

So why did the ghosts have to run after Sam and party through town like that? Couldn't they just, like, you know...teleport around? They were already disappearing and reappearing at will, so that entire scene made no sense.

And how are they going to keep the entire town out of the not-defined force field? There is no visual to say, "Don't go in there." Nor did there appear to be any barrier keeping anyone out. Did I miss that? 

As sad as I was when I heard the series was ending, after watching the premiere I'm okay with it. I will miss the show tremendously, but even for a show about supernatural forces, it has become somewhat non-sensical. 

Highlight for me was talking to Rowena about getting her "exquisite ass" over there. LOL

Edited October 14, 2019 by Lunula

[Cambion]

Re the mother and the car.  She wasn't the woman from 14/20 who was bringing the cake in so I think the mom in 15/1 was a guest.  So, it wasn't her car, she may not have known where the keys were -- I don't remember any keys as they ran through the house.  And srsly, hardly anyone knows how to hotwire a car and the new cars with electronic ignitions are significantly harder to hotwire than the ones we usually see the boys do that on.  If you think about it, every car I can think of them hotwiring was pre 1990s, before electronic ignitions, back when you just had to find the right two wires and twist them together.  So, anyways, I think there's plenty of good irl reasons nobody tried to hotwire that car.

[PAForrest]

Hotwiring the car wasn't at all the expected problem for me. Chuckles knows I couldn't do it. It's the fact that garages all have the garage door opener button on the wall, usually right by the door she entered the garage through. That's how you open the door, unless it's a manual door in which you pull it up.

That's what threw me out of that scene entirely when I was supposed to believe she was stuck in the garage with no way out, which shouldn't have been true - not in the real world, at least.

Edited October 15, 2019 by PAForrest
addition

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, PAForrest said:

It's the fact that garages all have the garage door opener button on the wall, usually right by the door she entered the garage through.

All of them?  No.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

All of them?  No.

They do all have a manual safety release though - and if they don't, the manufacturer is in trouble. ;)

[Bali]

4 hours ago, PAForrest said:

It's the fact that garages all have the garage door opener button on the wall, usually right by the door she entered the garage through. That's how you open the door, unless it's a manual door in which you pull it up.

That's what threw me out of that scene entirely when I was supposed to believe she was stuck in the garage with no way out, which shouldn't have been true - not in the real world, at least.

Mine doesn't. And the door is so heavy that it takes 2 men to open. I'd be a dead duck. But it does have a garage door to the back patio, so I could use it. But really, I've seen enough of this show that I  know you don't run into the garage. You go outside. 

[catrox14]

Now were it  an old home in an old neighborhood, I could buy faulty wiring or no automatic garage door opener, which was not the case in this modern home in a clearly well to do neighborhood. No way that house didn't have an automatic garage door opener with a button near the door between the house and the garage.

Even if there was no garage door button nearby or it failed, construction laws typicall mandate that there must be a manual way to lift the garage door from the inside. So, they could have made it so the power button didn't work because ghost made the power fail, and showed the mom attempting to open the garage door by hand. 

I think Dabb wrote into the script that she and her child just hide in some weird spot specfically to show Sam having to put down the gun to help the little girl down. It looks more heroic to have the tall guy physically helping her. And it sets up Sam being affected by the wound and sets up Cas picking up the gun to shoot the ghost.

Its all plot,plot, plot get from A to B leaving IMO no tension the way it ended up on screen. It doesnt matter to Dabb that viewers will question why Sam would put his weapon down during a battle or  why the mom wasn't shown being the one to help get her daughter diwn, when she got  them into the hiding spot in the first place. 

Dabb could have written it to show the mom struggling to lift the heavy garage door and the ghost approaching, only to have Sam and Cas show up right before he caught them.  Then the ghost harms Sam, the wound is affected, causing Sam to lose the gun on the floor and then Cas picks it up and shoots the ghost.

Tension remains and no one looks idiotic.

[Bobcatkitten]

yeah, just pull the red release cord and lift the door. that was a new house. it's easy.

[Aeryn13]

I think people would be perfectly willing to overlook (or not even notice) stuff like the "why don`t they use the door?" if the show overall had tighter writing. 

I mean, stuff like the ghosts using their "zap in/zap out" powers in the very same episode, seconds before they suddenly chase our little group down the street. Whyyyyyy? They could have easily materialized right in front of them. I mean, I know why they didn`t do that but I know that for out-of-script-reasons. 

[FlickChick]

If memory serves (and I'm not re-watching it), the power was out when she hit the opener by the door. She then went to use the manual release, reached up, pulled it and it broke off in her hand without releasing the garage door from the electronic opener. But yeah, realllly a stretch of "coincidences".

[NougatJack]

I rewatched the scene with the ghosts. The ghosts started chasing the group right after this barrier thing has been set up. So basically it works like a demon trap, the ghosts who are trapped aren‘t able to use their powers anymore, and can‘t teleport anymore.

Otherwise it wouldn‘t even make any sense to set up that barrier, because if the ghosts would still be able to use their powers, then they would also be able to teleport out of the trap.

[gonzosgirrl]

They basically put a big salt circle around the town. That doesn't stop the spirits from having their power they just can't cross the line.

ETA: If the spell/circle somehow LOL!canon voided the spirits powers, they (Sam & company) wouldn't have had to run in the first place.

Edited October 16, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[gonzosgirrl]

5 hours ago, PinkChicken said:

I was going to reply to say I didn't think demon traps did completely void powers, just limit them to within the trap as the area they can affect because they can't go outside of it, and usually weaken them -but it seems to follow a vague ~just how powerful is this demon anyway~ set of rules. But now I've thought too hard about it 

We're not talking Devil's Traps though - these are spirits, not demons. Devil's Traps do seem to limit the powers of the demon - ie, they can't smoke out or fling humans away, etc. But salt lines - for spirits and ghosts - have always been a barrier. That's why people can surround themselves for protection - salt circles don't change the spirits' powers, they just can't cross the line.

Edited October 16, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[Katy M]

17 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

We're not talking Devil's Traps though - these are spirits, not demons. Devil's Traps do seem to limit the powers of the demon - ie, they can't smoke out or fling humans away, etc. But salt lines - for spirits and ghosts - have always been a barrier. That's why people can surround themselves for protection - salt circles don't change the spirits' powers, they just can't cross the line.

We're also technically not talking a salt line.  It's a spell that used a fresh human heart performed by a demon. It may have a bit more kick than salt.  Or not.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

We're also technically not talking a salt line.  It's a spell that used a fresh human heart performed by a demon. It may have a bit more kick than salt.  Or not.

True, but the fact remains that if the spell/salt voided their powers, then they couldn't harm the much bigger, stronger human, or the freaking Angel of the Lord, so the foot race to the finish line makes even less sense. They also wouldn't have to worry about keeping the townsfolk out.

[catrox14]

The fact that we are having to try and headcanon the sequence is a failure of the writing. It doesn't require we be spoon fed either. Considering how much exposition they shoved at us, why not have Demon!Jack exposition the crap out of how and why that worked. Why didn't any of them ask why it made the ghosts stop behaving ghosty?  I'll tell you why.  Because Dabb would have had to do research into the show ghost lore and that would have ruined his big stupid sequence.

And FFS show, John Wayne Gacy was not the clown in s2.  I will never understand why Dabb/Singer allowed that  real life pedophile rapist/murderer into the lore and use him as a throwback to s2 for "nostalgia" is just plain....bad and wrong.

Edited October 16, 2019 by catrox14

[NougatJack]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

They basically put a big salt circle around the town. That doesn't stop the spirits from having their power they just can't cross the line.

ETA: If the spell/circle somehow LOL!canon voided the spirits powers, they (Sam & company) wouldn't have had to run in the first place.

But what stops spirits from teleporting into salt circles to attack humans who seeks protection inside if they just can‘t cross the line?

[ILoveReading]

The ghost lore was massively screwed up before the episode even started. 

On SPN ghosts are disembodied souls who got left behind and went mad.  They didn't go to purgatory, hell, or heaven.  They were left on earth. 

Opening the riff shouldn't have released ghosts, or monsters.  Just strictly demons. 

As for Demon Jack, I don't like him in any shape or form.  He's just another deus ex machina.  And Dean gets to babysit.  Can he just go away in any form.  I need a break from the character.

I don't think the demon is anyone but who he says he is.   To make him have a hidden identity, would require effort on Dabb's part.

Given how bad this episode was, he obviously didn't use any. 

My thoughts on the brothers and roles belong in bitch/jerk so I'll post those there.

But this was every bit as bad as I thought it would be for a Dabb opener, in terms of plotting, pacing and characterization.

[Aeryn13]

1 minute ago, NougatJack said:

But what stops spirits from teleporting into salt circles to attack humans who seeks protection inside if they just can‘t cross the line?

Their inability to cross the line includes using their powers to do so. So the ghosts in this episode not just teleporting outside the spell even horizon made sense. But within that, they should have still been able to use their powers willy-nilly. Same as ghosts can teleport from one place to another outside of a salt circle. 

In the end, their running scene down the street just looked stupid. It was amateurishly filmed.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, NougatJack said:

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But what stops spirits from teleporting into salt circles to attack humans who seeks protection inside if they just can‘t cross the line?

I think the idea is that the salt creates a general barrier field that they can't get around. Like in Advanced Thanatology, the ghost figured out to blow away the salt barrier. He couldnt cross it otherwise.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I think the idea is that the salt creates a general barrier field that they can't get around. Like in Advanced Thanatology, the ghost figured out to blow away the salt barrier. He couldnt cross it otherwise.

Exactly. And one would assume that this was the demon/magic part of Not!Jack's spell - that the line couldn't simply be blown away or broken. And you're right - regardless of the writers' intent, if we have to work this hard to explain or justify a scene, it's not working.

10 minutes ago, NougatJack said:

But what stops spirits from teleporting into salt circles to attack humans who seeks protection inside if they just can‘t cross the line?

The circle is what stops them. It (in canon) does not have any other effect except as a barrier. They can't cross the line, corporeal or not.

[ILoveReading]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I think the idea is that the salt creates a general barrier field that they can't get around. Like in Advanced Thanatology, the ghost figured out to blow away the salt barrier. He couldnt cross it otherwise.

"In most cultures salt is a symbol of purity, it repels evil and un natural things." 

This was the explantion they gave for why salt works.  It never stopped the powers.  Just provided a barrier. 

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

In the end, their running scene down the street just looked stupid. It was amateurishly filmed.

Which is surprising coming from John Showwalter who is normally quiet good, but I found the editing and directing as lackluster as the writing.

In particular the scene where Dean's hell time is mentioned.  I found the camera angle a still strange.  Why having it looking up at him like that?

[Lemuria]

14 hours ago, NougatJack said:

I rewatched the scene with the ghosts. The ghosts started chasing the group right after this barrier thing has been set up. So basically it works like a demon trap, the ghosts who are trapped aren‘t able to use their powers anymore, and can‘t teleport anymore.

Otherwise it wouldn‘t even make any sense to set up that barrier, because if the ghosts would still be able to use their powers, then they would also be able to teleport out of the trap.

But demons in a circle of Solomon can use their powers. I refer you “Sin City,” where the demons cracks the circle from inside. She couldn’t teleport out but she could still use other powers. There’s  nothing in the episode that in anyway indicates that they could not teleport around while inside the town. If that’s what they wanted us to know, then they needed to indicate it. It’s not as if they abhor exposition normally, is it?

We should not have to write the episodes for them or come up with exclamations that it’s their obligation to give us.

[DeeDee79]

8 hours ago, Lemuria said:

But demons in a circle of Solomon can use their powers. I refer you “Sin City,” where the demons cracks the circle from inside. She couldn’t teleport out but she could still use other powers. 

She could still use her powers but she didn’t crack the circle. She summoned a wind that blew away Dean’s exorcism notes but she was still confined to the Devil’s trap. I think that Sam while possessed by Meg was the first time that they showed a demon cracking the circle.

[falltime]

lol I found part 1 of Are You Afraid of the Dark to be creepier than the ghost in this episode. The clips of the ghosties from the earlier episodes didn't help any.

[gonzosgirrl]

Spoiler alert.

Spoiler

The spirits can still teleport. So yeah, that last scene? Stupid.

[Morrigan2575]

Super late so all I'm going to say is I really liked it. The final trunk close with the cut back to the pilot killed me (in a good way)

[Dobian]

I finally got started with the season.  I think this show might be ending a season too late.  It wasn't just that the episode was bad, it's that the actors look tired and aren't totally into it.  Sam looks totally worn out.  Dean's conviction feels forced.  "Yep, it's us against Hell, and we're going to kill them all...again.  Fourteen seasons of hard work, but we'll just start over, not a problem...*sigh*."  The series could have really benefited from a short and tightly written eight episode kind of mini season, this one looks like it's going to be a long slog to the end.

[ILoveReading]

I've just spent the last hour watching this guys reviews and he says so many things I agree with.

[Cambion]

(sorry back here because I'm doing a rewatch with a friend that has missed some eps.)

 

So, if we're even going there, I wondered why they went into the houses and spent so much time wandering around an obviously empty house anyway....  That's not how an evacuation works:You get in, you get out, you get on to the next house.

 

Shrug.  Not that a lot of this episode made real world sense or anything because of dealing with supernatural entities.  But I did wonder it on my first watch and it came up again after this latest rewatch.

 

 

[The Companion]

On 10/10/2019 at 8:03 PM, Katy M said:

I like demon Jack better than Jack Jack.

. . .

Demon Jack is right.  Dean is gorgeous.

 

 

He was substantially more entertaining and had better taste than original flavor Jack. 

On 10/10/2019 at 8:33 PM, Katy M said:

 

But, at the end of the Moriah, wasn't the clown ghost going into a birthday party?  Did he slaughter everyone except the mom and her daughter?  Hey, that rhymed.  But, mostly that's a little disturbing.

It really felt like they glossed over that, didn't it? 

 

On 10/11/2019 at 3:48 AM, Hana Chan said:

 

Yeah, that bullet in Sam's shoulder isn't going to have some kind of big repercussions.

Heh. It would be really funny if it was just an infection that sidelined him for a couple of episodes. Or like, sorry, guys. I have to have surgery and do some rehab. 

On 10/11/2019 at 7:58 AM, Bergamot said:

 

Thank you, BabySpinach, I was thinking the same thing! Except I don't think that these ghosts would have been scary in the dark either. They looked like a bunch of people dressed up in Halloween costumes from Party City and were about as scary as an inferior Goosebumps episode. That whole "clearing the town" segment was so dragged out, and was in my opinion poorly acted and directed as well. And the big climax of the episode, with the ghosts running after them in broad daylight down the street? That was just cringe-worthy.

 

The running down the street was unintentionally hilariously. Oh, I can ghost teleport, but I am gonna run?

On 10/11/2019 at 8:32 AM, Bobcatkitten said:

 

A few weird things - why did Dean randomly put his gun away in the middle of all this stuff going on?  

This was such a jarring scene. Particularly the failure to store it with the other weapons. Something will definitely come of it and they weren't even subtle.

On 10/14/2019 at 12:46 PM, Lunula said:

 

Highlight for me was talking to Rowena about getting her "exquisite ass" over there. LOL

Hee. Somehow even just having her on one side of the conversation was delightful. 

 

I made it to the current season! When I started S1, E1, the current season was already going. Sure I slowed down and there has been a delay, but still . . . .

My bar is fairly low after last season. This was reasonably entertaining, which is an improvement over some recent episodes. I was disappointed by the effects. They show general has great effects. But, I didn't hate it?

[Terese]

On 8/17/2020 at 7:45 PM, The Companion said:

He was substantially more entertaining and had better taste than original flavor Jack. 

It really felt like they glossed over that, didn't it? 

 

Heh. It would be really funny if it was just an infection that sidelined him for a couple of episodes. Or like, sorry, guys. I have to have surgery and do some rehab. 

The running down the street was unintentionally hilariously. Oh, I can ghost teleport, but I am gonna run?

This was such a jarring scene. Particularly the failure to store it with the other weapons. Something will definitely come of it and they weren't even subtle.

Hee. Somehow even just having her on one side of the conversation was delightful. 

 

I made it to the current season! When I started S1, E1, the current season was already going. Sure I slowed down and there has been a delay, but still . . . .

My bar is fairly low after last season. This was reasonably entertaining, which is an improvement over some recent episodes. I was disappointed by the effects. They show general has great effects. But, I didn't hate it?

You are generous. I actually hated it. I live mood though. The music was that cheaply cued type that introduces DRAMA. But, there was none. No nuance, or depth, tension. That was awful.  I am equally jarred by running ghosts and the treatment of the gun.

[The Companion]

3 hours ago, Terese said:

You are generous. I actually hated it. I live mood though. The music was that cheaply cued type that introduces DRAMA. But, there was none. No nuance, or depth, tension. That was awful.  I am equally jarred by running ghosts and the treatment of the gun.

How sad is it when "I didn't hate it" is high praise? 😭

[Terese]

1 hour ago, The Companion said:

How sad is it when "I didn't hate it" is high praise? 😭

I know it is sad. I don't understand what is happening to this used- to- be quite good show. Even the acting is abysmal, as though they are embarrassed to speak their lines. So, they just say them, look left, then right, then down at their feet. 

[trudysmom]

Since this season has been replaying on Sundays, I hate them even more than the first time around.  It was embarrassing to watch with my family who had fallen off watching in real time.  Cringe-worthy and sad is the best I can say.  Really not looking forward to the rest of the season.