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“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

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1 minute ago, Katy M said:

Yep.  And that's kind of the beauty of this show.  We all have different parts of it we love, so there must be something in it for everyone.

Not so much for me anymore in Dabbernatural. I find that guy by far the worst showrunner ever.

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9 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I know I've said it before, but I'll go on record as not hating Swan Song. In fact, when I watched it the first time, I said to a friend who I was coercing into watching at the time, that I felt that if it ended there (less the very last scene of Soulless Sam standing in the street), I would have felt that I'd been told a complete and satisfying story. I still believe that. Now the caveat: I watched it completely unspoiled and without any input from fandom, knowing nothing other than the premise of the show. So at that point, I didn't know anything had been changed, or writer's intentions, or agendas, etc. I was a Dean girl from 'Easy, Tiger' but I still liked Sam and I loved the brotherhood. Yes, Sam was a giant douche to Dean in S4, but that was part of the story (the demon blood) and I enjoyed that story. It wasn't until later that I felt the BvJ kick in, when the writing, (IMO), beginning with Sera, took a distinct turn towards the Sam-centric and the dismantling of Dean Winchester began. There was some good-to-great stuff in seasons 6 - 10, but things started going sideways in S11 (and I believe Dabb had influence when Carver mentally checked out half way through), and then went completely and irretrievably off the rails in the Dabb era. He has screwed Dean (and more worse, Jensen,) at every turn and I honestly can't envision an ending good enough to redeem Dabb, or the show, in my eyes.

You had me nodding in serious agreement with most of this (except me being more of a Samgirl than a Dean one) up until Gamble. She may have done the Dean domestic thing for a while, but I actually liked that the brothers got along and listened to and compromised for each other under her watch. Dean got appreciation from Sam and Bobby - in actual text - and it was obvious how much both needed him (Dean was Sam's "stone # 1" after all.) It was my favorite time in the brother relationship. And despite the season 6 start, I thought Dean did get to end well, what with saving Sam and killing Dick Roman. Dean in purgatory could've been great, so a great send off in my opinion.

I can see where Deangirls might have gotten a bit tired of depressed Dean, but the BvsJ wasn't literal at least - in that Sam and Dean did actually get along rather well throughout season 6B and season 7 and they seemed like actual partners and equals in the relationship - so I don't know.

For me, season 8 was a whole new kettle of fish where Carver threw everything out the window and decided he knew best, trashing the brothers' relationship for no good reason that I could see and starting the real B vs J in earnest. That was when things really got nasty, in my opinion, and the fans started disagreeing the most.

So I don't know. Sera may have preferred Sam, but I thought she didn't do too badly by Dean (except for the Lisa fiasco at the end - I'll admit that wasn't nice.) But Carver on the other hand entirely trashed Sam in my opinion - I think Deanfans would have been incensed, for example, if Sera had decided that Dean just enjoyed his life with Lisa and never even tried to find Sam at all. It would have been ludicrous, as in my opinion Carver's Amelia arc was. Maybe not to the same degree, because Sam was in hell, but it was throwing out the entire feeling*** / dynamic of the show. And I might have believed there was some purpose behind it towards the brothers being more "mature" and "independent" if not for super awesome, loyal, best brother ever, Benny coming along to show Sam (and Dean) how they should be more codependent than ever. And since Carver wrote "Sacrifice" the way he did - with Sam giving up on saving the world because all Sam really wanted was Dean's approval, and Dean giving up on it because as long as he had Sam's desire for approval, he was good with that - that's the total opposite of not codependent. Except now not only were Sam and Dean codependent, but they were also at odds much of the time. The epitome of B vs J in my opinion.

I'll admit that Dabb is pretty bad - and as enamored with his own new, shiny characters as Carver ever was - but I never really saw Sera as straying that far from Kripke's original vision as Dabb or Carver. In her reign the brothers got along and they were partners, supporting and defending each other against common enemies. Under Carver, Sam and Dean were often made to be each other's enemies, and for me that's where most of the B vs J began.

I also don't see Sera's seasons as being entirely Sam-centric either. I agree the Lisa storyline was a bit lame in comparison to Sam's soulless storyline, but it wasn't Amelia levels of lame. At least it tied into the main storyline somewhat. And Dean did actively save Sam in a supernatural way and the Dick Roman storyline was Dean's - with awesome Frank as his wing man. Compare that to the Gadreel storyline where Sam was relegated to damsel in distress who constantly had to be saved by awesome Gadreel or to bitchy ungrateful brother who would learn the error of his ways and how to appreciate his body-hijacker "friend" Gadreel as Gadreel helped to save the day. In my opinion that was quite a bit worse in terms of bias... I can't necessarily call it entirely Dean-centric though, because Carver sure did like to have his own original characters save the day a lot.

Pretty much like Dabb now. ...So I kind of draw a line down the middle at season 7 as to where for me it all started to fall apart a bit. (Though I did really like much of season 10 and loved almost all of season 11 ...I have so much hate for season 8 and 9, though, that that was hard to get past. It's kind of telling that my favorite thing about those seasons was the Metatron storyline - how sad is that?)

*** They'd recently had "Time After Time..." for example, so Sam not looking for Dean - with more actual evidence of where Dean was than "Time..." - seemed ludicrous. But then if Sam had looked for Dean even a little, then Carver couldn't have had his B vs J and angst fest and his Benny, the super awesome better brother. Bah humbug.

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I have to say that season 2 is probably still my favorite finale to watch (not necessarily my favorite arc or cliffhanger). There were no last minute narrative pulls or fake outs, and AHBL 1 & 2 are just special. They didn't have me chomping at the bit for season 3, but it didn't need to (I had all of 1 & 2 to binge back then anyway). Those last few eps were the first I ever saw and what got me hooked so even though it wasn't exactly an epic cliffhanger it was open enough and very character focused in all the best ways. 

I'd 100% agree with you @gonzosgirrl about season 5 if it weren't for Adam, not to mention the hypocritical 'tell' and Dean shaming they apparently needed to pull it off. It was a good, appropriately tragic ending to what was still a good horror show.

Spoiler

and guess who we're getting back again this year ...yay

Unless 15 seriously pulls it out of the bag I'm gonna have to go with season 11's finale plus a few episodes counted as one-shots after that personally. Even though my binge watches always lose traction around 8, and there are many eps from 8 through 11 that i skip nearly every time, funnily enough, probably actually for many similar reasons to @AwesomO4000 but seen through a Dean stan lens if you boil it down.
Maybe if you call a spade a spade and watch 12-15 as its own little Dabb show without the disappointment it could be passable.

Edited by PinkChicken
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13 hours ago, PinkChicken said:

Even though my binge watches always lose traction around 8, and there are many eps from 8 through 11 that i skip nearly every time, funnily enough, probably actually for many similar reasons to @AwesomO4000 but seen through a Dean stan lens if you boil it down.

Actually, I don't disagree with you here on the Dean front either.

I haven't been particularly shy in the past about calling Carver out for being unkind to Dean's character, too, in order to further his Benny the awesomest little vampire agenda. I'll be one of the first to say "out of character" to Carver having Dean just drop Benny like a hot potato. Dean, in my opinion, is loyal, so that made close to zero sense to me... especially contrasted against Dean showing his loyalty to Castiel by not leaving him behind.

And that's not even counting how Carver turned Dean into the biggest whiny doormat ever - which um, hell no*** - rather than have Dean stick up for himself or at the very least have him check to see if that pod person Carver turned Sam into wasn't some sort of ...well, pod person at the very least. I don't care how many mytharcs Carver gave Dean. That's no excuse for character assassination. And by the time poor, abused Benny who'd already lost everything had to make the ultimate sacrifice for mean old, not-appreciative enough Dean, I was rolling my eyes with the Benny woobiedom and wanting to know why Carver was turning the heroic characters I loved into selfish, self-absorbed jerks.

So yeah - plenty of indignation on Dean's part from me under Carver also. I just happened to focus on Sam that time.

*** Did Carver not watch any of season 6 and 7, especially "The Mentalists," before taking over as showrunner? I  mean yes, the "save Sam" was still strong with Dean in those seasons, but the let Sam (or Castiel for that matter) walk all over me - even with a crazy Sam and crazy Castiel and Dean in depression - was not. Like at all. And purgatory should have made Dean even more self-confident, not less.

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7 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Actually, I don't disagree with you here on the Dean front either.

I haven't been particularly shy in the past about calling Carver out for being unkind to Dean's character, too, in order to further his Benny the awesomest little vampire agenda. I'll be one of the first to say "out of character" to Carver having Dean just drop Benny like a hot potato. Dean, in my opinion, is loyal, so that made close to zero sense to me... especially contrasted against Dean showing his loyalty to Castiel by not leaving him behind.

And that's not even counting how Carver turned Dean into the biggest whiny doormat ever - which um, hell no*** - rather than have Dean stick up for himself or at the very least have him check to see if that pod person Carver turned Sam into wasn't some sort of ...well, pod person at the very least. I don't care how many mytharcs Carver gave Dean. That's no excuse for character assassination. And by the time poor, abused Benny who'd already lost everything had to make the ultimate sacrifice for mean old, not-appreciative enough Dean, I was rolling my eyes with the Benny woobiedom and wanting to know why Carver was turning the heroic characters I loved into selfish, self-absorbed jerks.

So yeah - plenty of indignation on Dean's part from me under Carver also. I just happened to focus on Sam that time.

*** Did Carver not watch any of season 6 and 7, especially "The Mentalists," before taking over as showrunner? I  mean yes, the "save Sam" was still strong with Dean in those seasons, but the let Sam (or Castiel for that matter) walk all over me - even with a crazy Sam and crazy Castiel and Dean in depression - was not. Like at all. And purgatory should have made Dean even more self-confident, not less.

I think Carver wasn't the best to Dean either though at least he gave him stories that actually stayed. But Dabb is almost gleefully destroying every thing that made Dean Dean.

With the current mytharc development I have zero hope that Dean will play a valid role in the Series Finale. Whereas I actually do think there is a good chance Sam ascends to being God and benevolently ruling over the universe. I wouldn't put it past Dabb.

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22 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Sam ascends to being God and benevolently ruling over the universe. I wouldn't put it past Dabb.

Is that before or after any of the angels left somehow get killed under Sam's watch?

I'm guessing it's before. Sam will have had good intentions of course, but Dabb can't seem to let Sam do anything right so why would ruling the universe be any different.

Which will then lead to heaven imploding or whatever it was supposedly supposed to do if the angels died.

We can have a "Cabin in the Woods" ending. Yay?

Edited by AwesomO4000

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12 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Is that before or after any of the angels left somehow get killed under Sam's watch?

It would be in the Series Finale where he single-handedly saves the day and then ascends, with the obvious tell how perfect he is for it. 

There are a lot of people having that exact same spec on tumblr - noone even bothers to pretend to come up with an "alibi story" for Dean anymore. The show makes that very easy.

So you wouldn't object to making Sam God either, provided he is perfect at it?

Edited by Aeryn13
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1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

It would be in the Series Finale where he single-handedly saves the day and then ascends, with the obvious tell how perfect he is for it. 

But since when does the "tell" ever pan out?

I think my above edited for completeness scenario is just as plausible. Dabb can say he thinks Sam is perfect all he wants. I'm not going to believe it if what he shows me is the exact opposite of that, and Dabb can't seem to show Sam as good at anything - except maybe starting apocalypses.

I can't think of one major thing Sam has done right since Dabb took over myself.

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3 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But since when does the "tell" ever pan out?

I think my above edited for completeness scenario is just as plausible. Dabb can say he thinks Sam is perfect all he wants. I'm not going to believe it if what he shows me is the exact opposite of that, and Dabb can't seem to show Sam as good at anything - except maybe starting apocalypses.

I can't think of one major thing Sam has done right since Dabb took over myself.

It's still a 100 % Dean-who scenario. I mean, what would he be there for if God-Sam took out Chuck? Polishing the throne? Or just be killed off in a random one-off episode earlier because why pretend any longer?

Dean is my obvious favourite but I would object to him ascending to God on principle. That would be the most ridiculous Mary Sue ego trip writing ever. No matter what they made Chuck into.

Edited by Aeryn13
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1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

It's still a 100 % Dean-who scenario. I mean, what would he be there for if God-Sam took out Chuck? Polishing the throne? Or just be killed off in a random one-off episode earlier because why pretend any longer?

Chuck can't die or the sun will die.  Neither Sam or Dean will do anything.  This will be a repeat of Season 11, except this time, maybe Sam will start off the talk, but Amara will talk Chuck down.  

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3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

With the current mytharc development I have zero hope that Dean will play a valid role in the Series Finale. Whereas I actually do think there is a good chance Sam ascends to being God and benevolently ruling over the universe. I wouldn't put it past Dabb.

Given what we have in the air at the moment the most “equal participation” ending I can come up with is if Dean eventually has to shoot Sam with the equaliser. I could see TPTB thinking that’s a great callback to s2.

(Not a spoiler cause it was introduced last season? & it’s just me talking crap)

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3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

So you wouldn't object to making Sam God either, provided he is perfect at it?

No, I wouldn't want that, but I don't think it's even possible that that would even be an option. It's been more than 9 seasons since Sam's really done anything major right rather than screwing up royally, so why would this change now?

And not even that one thing right started out that way. Sam actually first screwed up royally. It was Dean's determination that brought him to the cemetery to even give Sam the chance to have a win. Whether you object to Dean's role or think anyone could have driven the car there, the indisputable fact as shown onscreen was that that was necessary for Sam to have broken out, meaning that if the Impala doesn't show up, then Sam fails. So it was dumb luck more than anything Sam did on his own. I was okay with that at that point. The subsequent tearing Sam down by Carver and Dabb, however, where Sam almost always messes up and is almost always wrong - and in his end of last season DVD wrap up interview Dabb said specifically that the Jack scenario was set up so that Sam would be wrong... this was not an accident or an afterthought - has annoyed me to this.

Nothing Dab has shown me onscreen would lead me to believe he'd have Sam be God in any way - unless he was going to have Sam fail at it, much like he had Sam be a "leader" and then fail at it. Under Dabb, Sam can't even avoid getting killed by a human Nick or having to be saved by Castiel from a simple ghost. Why would I even think Dabb would let Sam be a good god?

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Dean is my obvious favourite but I would object to him ascending to God on principle. That would be the most ridiculous Mary Sue ego trip writing ever. No matter what they made Chuck into.

They may not make Dean God, but Dean is almost always right. About almost everything. In my opinion, "Dean has good instincts" only goes so far. After a while, it becomes House levels of annoying. In my opinion anyway. It's not that I want Dean to be wrong. I just don't want Sam and Castiel to always have to be really, really wrong at the same time that Dean is right. Can't they both or all be a little bit right? What happened to there are multiple ways to look at a situation? Why does it mostly seem to be that one way is right while the other is the consequences cause apocalyptic repercussions levels of wrong? That's kind of annoying in my opinion.

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45 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

No, I wouldn't want that, but I don't think it's even possible that that would even be an option. It's been more than 9 seasons since Sam's really done anything major right rather than screwing up royally, so why would this change now?

He took out the entire British Men of Letters at the end of season 12, which is way less than 6 seasons, I would call it major, and nothing was screwed up.

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The worst thing to happen to either of them has been this weird narrative limbo without knowing when the show would end, and the writers aversion to character development because of that. Or maybe even that is too kind & they never really did have an excuse and like reusing these cookie cutter characters out of laziness and lack of communication. If you allow your characters to become self-actualised or whatever, what other purpose would the narrative hold? - a completely ridiculous fear if you ask me, people live for 80+ years and we learn and change every single day. Allowing your characters to grow isn't going to single handedly end the series if you can think of new situations to put them in and things they haven't had to react to before.

Initially, Sam was always the most ~wrong~ because as the 'main' character he is supposed to go through trials, lows, and self reflection and come out a better person for it, but every time he gets even remotely close the show must go on, so the next season's ProblemTM cuts him off at the knees. It never helped that they usually didn't leave enough time for him to actually *show* that development, with the writers preferring to use the *tell* and last-minute grand gestures to prove that he has risen above, which unfortunately either don't work (because again, the show must go on,) or which are ret-conned later (or which were poorly thought out regarding their actual implications in favor of just looking badass).
More recently though they are just replaying the same old notes and I don't even think you can give them that much benefit of the doubt anymore. Sam does X, Dean does Y, rinse, repeat.  If they don't mix it up fans tweet at them that its not fair or balanced, if they do mix it up fans tweet at them that it was ooc. and they pay way too much attention to feedback. Its the same reason Dean is suicidal in one ep and the team cheerleader in the next. Payoff? whats that?

Given that is IS the final finale though. I had been hanging onto the remote hope that they would use these 20 episodes to allow the brothers to start moving again to a proper character resolution. One would think that (especially given all you point out in your other posts @AwesomO4000 about Sam and all the things that he has messed up but which have been dropped over the years) it's going to take one hell of a grand gesture to bring him back up right at the end.  And even though they are god-awful at actually writing it and showing it, all of the tell points to a pretty Sam-centric tptb focus. That's why I absolutely wouldn't put it past them to make it a sacrifice of god-like proportions, and the best case scenario I can think of is basically season 5, but use the equaliser instead of the cage 1) to make it more permanent & 2) to actively require Dean (though then we would also have to squeeze Amara in there somewhere).

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16 minutes ago, Katy M said:

He took out the entire British Men of Letters at the end of season 12, which is way less than 6 seasons, I would call it major, and nothing was screwed up.

The following is my opinion on this and why I don't count it as a major win. I get that others' opinions are going to vary here, but for me this just wasn't a much of a win...

Sam didn't really take out the BMoL, imo. He had to beg the other hunters left to overlook the fact that he joined the BMoL (entirely and asininely out of character in my opinion, but nonetheless Dabb had Sam do it) and entirely screwed up, but please please ignore that I'm an idiot and go with me to help get rid of them ...as if the hunters wouldn't have done that anyway or as if there was any other choice really.

And even then it was badass Jody who took out the big bad of the hour, not Sam.

I'm not one of those people who thought that Sam heading the charge to get rid of the BMoL was a positive thing. For me it was mostly an excuse to have Sam have to admit how wrong he was in front of a bunch of people and then have to ask them to please help him fix things anyway. After the hunters asked hopefully if Dean would be going with them but then had to settle for Sam.

And I don't know about nothing getting screwed up. Some of the hunters were killed, so it wasn't exactly a grand slam for me. Though I suppose after what happened to the AU hunters last season, this could be considered a win in comparison.

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56 minutes ago, PinkChicken said:

 If you allow your characters to become self-actualised or whatever, what other purpose would the narrative hold? - a completely ridiculous fear if you ask me, people live for 80+ years and we learn and change every single day. Allowing your characters to grow isn't going to single handedly end the series if you can think of new situations to put them in and things they haven't had to react to before.

Which is what I loved about the Gamble seasons. In my opinion, Gamble managed to let Sam and Dean (yes, even Dean, despite the depression) grow and their relationship to mature while at the same time throwing something new at them. She let Sam realize that he needed Dean without Sam being resentful about it. She let Dean stand up for himself with the people he loved and accept that they are fallible beings while at the same time still loving them. There was no Sam screwing up to have to overcome in order to have this character growth.

But of course all of that got completely undone with one stupid episode.

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