S03.E11: Liars

[Stripper Glitter]

57 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

party of one

I still care about Serena.

I'll tiptoe away now.

You can hide over here with me where I'm still liking the episode and might watch it again 😛

[ferjy]

54 minutes ago, Ashforth said:

I'll sit at your table! I make no apologies for finding Serena Joy the most fascinating character in this series. 

Do you think it's maybe because of the actress? I don't care about Serena per se, but I do like watching the actress. She's good no matter which facet of Serena she is playing. Her scene with Luke was one of the best (and the only time O-T Fagbenle had the chance to show us his acting chops, he is so wasted in this) but I find she has chemistry with anyone she plays opposite.

[chaifan]

Let me start at the very end...  Kate Bush's Cloudbusting.  I love that song, but I thought "Women's Work" would have been a much more apt choice given the scene. 

I can buy the fight scene, with a little handwaving.  Winslow could have easily killed June, but he wasn't trying to.  He wanted to rape her, he wanted her alive and conscious.  As someone else said, I wish she had picked up a piece of glass or something a bit more convincing than a pen to stab him with.  But I can buy that adrenaline would kick in like a MF and give her the strength to fight as she did. 

Serena & Fred - oh hell, yeah, she was setting him up.  I think the ruse was something Fred would believe - that a one on one diplomatic mission with Truello would be more effective than something more official with multiple layers.  I have to think that off screen, just before Serena presented Fred with the sat phone, she was on the phone with Truello laying out the plan.  Then, after that scene, Fred uses the sat phone, calls Truello, and  Truello convinces him to meet one on one.  I don't think Fred believed they would be coming home with Nicole (hello, no car seat or baby supplies in the car!), but this would be a productive diplomatic talk. 

Dona Nobis - I remember this from our high school benediction, which I'm pretty sure was held in a Presbyterian church.  Even if it is a Catholic hymn, as someone else mentioned, I can see things like hymns being kept and folded in under the new religion.  Especially since anyone with musical talent was probably on the wall long ago, it would be easier than starting from scratch with new Gilead approved church music.

Serena - I think there's something between "redemption" and execution.  I hope Serena sings like a bird and cooperates in whatever way needed to bring down Gilead.  She should not be "free", but given some freedoms commensurate with her cooperation. 

Fred - let him hang.

Truello - more please.

The Martha bosses - they didn't give in until June mentioned that she had a Commander in on the plan.  That's what they have always lacked.  More Martha's, please.

The Showwriters - damn them for wasting 1/2 a season and not making this the 3rd or 4th episode.

And now, to go watch the "inside the episode" and trailer for next week.  I don't normally do that, but I'm intrigued as to where this is going. 

ETA:  before I go spoil myself for next week, one more thing... Rita - I hope Serena left her the sat phone, which makes its way to June to help with the truckload of children.  Oh, and more Rita, please.

Edited August 2, 2019 by chaifan

[Nonja]

1 hour ago, Ashforth said:

I'll sit at your table! I make no apologies for finding Serena Joy the most fascinating character in this series. 

Count me in as well! And protect me from everyone else.

[Ashforth]

1 hour ago, ferjy said:

Do you think it's maybe because of the actress? I don't care about Serena per se, but I do like watching the actress. She's good no matter which facet of Serena she is playing. Her scene with Luke was one of the best (and the only time O-T Fagbenle had the chance to show us his acting chops, he is so wasted in this) but I find she has chemistry with anyone she plays opposite.

I do think so! Serena Joy's story is compelling, imo, but Yvonne Strahovski's portrayal of her has brought a humanity and layers of emotion to Serena that might have gone by the wayside with a lesser artist. I think her acting has elevated the writing and the character.

Serena could have been a one-dimensional villain (and I know that some see her as that) but I think Strahovski is instrumental in why I feel invested in what happens to Serena Joy.

To be clear, I'm not saying she deserves a happy ending, just that the journey of where she came from and what happened and where she is now going is something I want to see.

Edited August 2, 2019 by Ashforth

[violet and green]

Well, that was a bit better - seeing those two captured was enjoyable, enjoyed the blood and body cleanup at Jezebel's, and some sort of plot is creaking forward for June's make it up as you go along plan - but it does not, for me, erase the fact that the bulk of the season has been annoying and pointless.

[mamadrama]

Chris Meloni has things to say about THAT scene. And also...

You know what the writers were saying to me? They said he stole many of his children from other commanders that he killed

https://www.vulture.com/2019/07/the-handmaids-tale-christopher-meloni-winslow-interview-liars.html

I can no longer guess what's going on in the writers' heads...

1 hour ago, Nonja said:

Count me in as well! And protect me from everyone else.

Serena Joy and Aunt Lydia may be my 2 favorite characters. At this point, June is my least. SJ may be diabolical and unhinged, but at least she is interesting to watch.

[violet and green]

On 7/31/2019 at 9:11 PM, Ariam said:

When Fred took June to jezebels she had to wear Serena’s coat to pass as her, then at the last check point she had to bend down and hide as “even wives are not allowed past this point”. Now she sits in the front seat wearing whatever and covered in blood????  These are small things where they could at least try to care. 

Yes! And Fred gave her the 'sexy' outfit and red lipstick. This time a little black dress with cutout back, high black heels with red soles, and a red lipstick just magically appeared in the Commander Lawrence household.

I also found it really annoying the way she staggered along that hallway, having made no effort to at least wipe off the obvious blood. Drama.

[Ariam]

What was the point of Lawrence giving June the gun? If "they" are coming how is a gun going to help her? Is she going to one handedly fight off the group of trained guards that come in the black van armed with machine guns? They are trained soldiers, she has not even used a gun previously to our knowledge, and they have fucking machine guns. What on earth was the point of the gun???!!! Also, why is commander Lawrence behaving like he's June's puppy? 

[AllyB]

16 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Fred will be tried in a "world" court! 

Not necessarily. Fred could be traded to Gilead for US operatives that Gilead has captured. And then Gilead would hopefully just go ahead and execute him. Maybe Gilead could demand Serena back as well as part of the trade deal and we'd get to see her experiencing the underside of Gilead for herself. Then again that makes little sense narratively when she has already chosen to leave.

[Baltimore Betty]

1 hour ago, Ariam said:

What was the point of Lawrence giving June the gun? If "they" are coming how is a gun going to help her? Is she going to one handedly fight off the group of trained guards that come in the black van armed with machine guns? They are trained soldiers, she has not even used a gun previously to our knowledge, and they have fucking machine guns. What on earth was the point of the gun???!!! Also, why is commander Lawrence behaving like he's June's puppy? 

Maybe he was intimating that she shoot herself, might be better than what she would endure at the hands of the powers that be in Gilead.

Someone said they saw Luke in the crowd of police and the other officials when the arrest of Fred went down, did I miss that? If he was there then why wouldn't they have given some dialogue? 

Why do I feel like Serena traded Fred for Nichole or she traded Fred for a lighter sentence.  Serena saw all the freedom women had in Canada, her contact (forgot his name) tempted her twice with life in Canada but she did not want to go willingly, now she can say she was arrested so it was not really her choice to be there, you know, make it look less traitor like. So maybe if Serena stays in Canada she can have supervised visitation with Nichole.

Either way, I think she had a hand in this situation,albeit a four fingered hand but a hand all the same.  Nothing she does is by accident.

Maybe we will see Emily and Moira go to Fred's hearings or trial, maybe Nick will make a surprise appearance for the prosecution.

[Lathund]

On 7/31/2019 at 3:10 PM, bmoore4026 said:

How is this show not about the Marthas?  They're the ones that seem to have the more interesting backstories.

It very well may become about them next season. That is assuming they go through with having June die; they've had characters (including June IIRC) say so many times that she'll be killed if she continues with her plans. With how much she has survived already that would've put anyone else in Gilead on the wall, any my general lack of faith in the writing, I have my doubts that they'll actually do that. But they should. Having introduced more Marthas in the story, giving us at least a glimpse into the "Martha network", it would seem logical. 

[Ashforth]

1 hour ago, Baltimore Betty said:

Either way, I think she had a hand in this situation,albeit a four fingered hand but a hand all the same.

OMG LOL this made me laugh so hard first thing in the morning. Thank you!

[Ashforth]

9 hours ago, chaifan said:

ETA:  before I go spoil myself for next week, one more thing... Rita - I hope Serena left her the sat phone, which makes its way to June to help with the truckload of children.  Oh, and more Rita, please.

What will happen to Rita with Fred and Serena gone? Will she, can she, please be assigned to the Lawrence household? Otherwise, how will we ever see her?

[chaifan]

2 hours ago, Baltimore Betty said:

Why do I feel like Serena traded Fred for Nichole or she traded Fred for a lighter sentence.  Serena saw all the freedom women had in Canada, her contact (forgot his name) tempted her twice with life in Canada but she did not want to go willingly, now she can say she was arrested so it was not really her choice to be there, you know, make it look less traitor like. So maybe if Serena stays in Canada she can have supervised visitation with Nichole.

Either way, I think she had a hand in this situation,albeit a four fingered hand but a hand all the same.  Nothing she does is by accident.

Maybe we will see Emily and Moira go to Fred's hearings or trial, maybe Nick will make a surprise appearance for the prosecution.

Serena most definitely traded Fred for getting out of Gilead.  Nicole may or may not be part of the bargain.  Definitely not custody of Nicole, but possibly the ability to see her. 

Love the "four fingered hand"! 

My guess is that we'll see Nick in the escape episode.  He may be the Commander leading the raid on Lawrence's house.  (Though I'm not sure there will be a raid - if the  Marthas did their job well, not sure why anyone would be "coming for" June or Lawrence.)  Or, he will be dispatched to stop the escape of the kids, and he will be what makes that possible in the end - he lets them go.  Just guesses here.

Marthas - I don't know how the Martha network survives at this point.  Either they go with the kids, in which case they're no longer around to work from the inside.  Or they stay, in which case they'll all certainly end up on the wall.  (Either for suspicion of being part of the escape, or for not keeping proper care of their charges.)  Either way, that would be a big blow to the Martha network. 

53 minutes ago, Ashforth said:

What will happen to Rita with Fred and Serena gone? Will she, can she, please be assigned to the Lawrence household? Otherwise, how will we ever see her?

I wondered that, too.  I hope she ends up on the plane.

Question about the Lawrence's Marthas, sorry I don't know their names...  We know the older one is part of the resistance.  But what about the younger one?  Is she in the resistance, or at least on their side, or is possible she will betray everyone?  They keep shusshing her out of the room, so I can't get a read on her.  Maybe I missed something.

[go4luca]

11 hours ago, Ariam said:

What was the point of Lawrence giving June the gun? If "they" are coming how is a gun going to help her?

9 hours ago, Baltimore Betty said:

Maybe he was intimating that she shoot herself, might be better than what she would endure at the hands of the powers that be in Gilead.

Someone said they saw Luke in the crowd of police and the other officials when the arrest of Fred went down, did I miss that? If he was there then why wouldn't they have given some dialogue? 

Re: June receiving the gun - to give her an option.  Let her decide.

Re: Luke - saw it posted elsewhere the shot of him in the car was not included in the actual scene but a still photo Hulu provided to reviewers of the episode.  Some believe the blurred figure behind him in the car is Moira.

Re: the Marthas - I've long said I'd love to see an episode dedicated to their network, how it came to be and how it works.

Edited August 2, 2019 by go4luca

[chaifan]

Random thought...  is it possible that Lawrence doesn't know about the Martha network, or at least the full extent of it?  That would make his "they'll be coming for us" make sense.  He has no idea there's a force at work at Jezebel's covering everything up.  He just assumes someone will find Winslow's bloody body, somehow link it to June, etc.  It seems he uses them for Eleanor's drugs, but maybe he doesn't know just how well organized they are.

(Side note: I also find it hard to believe that Jezebel's back door is a) unlocked, b) unguarded, d) no security cameras, and d) the whole lower level had no one around.)

[Mikay]

I can’t speak for others but my growing frustration that has graduated to outright loathing of Serena is more complicated than just disliking her as a character. My struggle is really a problem with the whole show and what I’ll call focus. At this point, I’ve seen sad Serena, sad June and even sad Fred so many times in perfect mood lighting, hitting the same notes over and over again, while the characters around them(the Marthas, Ofmatthew, Moira, even Emily to some extent) have been handed scraps of screen time and only through incredible performances register at all.  It’s attention to the core group at the expense of all others(and sensical worldbuilding) that has me wishing, praying, begging for a bit of space from them. It’a claustrophobic in the worst way. I don’t understand or even empathize with the characters more; I’m pleading with them to leave me alone. 

I understand perfectly that this is June’s story, and to a lesser extent the Waterfords as well, but to me the world of Handmaid’s Tale is that much shallower for refusing to deviate from them even when it would arguably make their stories stronger and more interesting.  

Part of the power of Atwood’s novel to me is the humanistic quality—-the very real suffocating danger that the protagonist  is in at all times, and the intimate desperation, and pain of it— but 3 seasons in, it almost feels totally lost. What’s left is a beautifully shot, wonderfully acted, impressively costumed but ultimately empty product with characters and a world that are becoming more 2-dimensional by the millisecond. 

All my total grumpiness aside, I think this episode was probably a season highlight, and if it were occurring closer to the beginning or even the middle, I’d be feeling more forgiving.

[Umbelina]

6 hours ago, AllyB said:

22 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Fred will be tried in a "world" court! 

Not necessarily. Fred could be traded to Gilead for US operatives that Gilead has captured. And then Gilead would hopefully just go ahead and execute him. Maybe Gilead could demand Serena back as well as part of the trade deal and we'd get to see her experiencing the underside of Gilead for herself. Then again that makes little sense narratively when she has already chosen to leave.

That's an interesting idea!

Had to rewatch to be sure.  Spy Guy says he will be held in Canada initially, but may be ultimately transferred to the International Criminal Court for trial. Yeah, don't like that "may be" part. 

It could work though and fit more with the

Spoiler

book too, where it's strongly implied that Gilead executes him.

Part of me would love to see Serena stuck in Gilead with no husband, treated like other women there, but a part of me would like to see Serena, Emily, and Moira on a publicity anti-Gilead tour.

6 hours ago, Baltimore Betty said:

Someone said they saw Luke in the crowd of police and the other officials when the arrest of Fred went down, did I miss that? If he was there then why wouldn't they have given some dialogue? 

I posted the photo above.  Maybe we will see him next week?  Or, more likely, they cut the scene because it was powerful enough as it was?

2 hours ago, go4luca said:

Re: Luke - saw it posted elsewhere the shot of him in the car was not included in the actual scene but a still photo Hulu provided to reviewers of the episode.  Some believe the blurred figure behind him in the car is Moira.

Interesting!  If they were both there, it seems more likely that we may see at least something of that next week.  I hope!

44 minutes ago, chaifan said:

(Side note: I also find it hard to believe that Jezebel's back door is a) unlocked, b) unguarded, d) no security cameras, and d) the whole lower level had no one around.)

I was thinking about this too yesterday.  Then I realized that the Commanders would probably not allow security cameras anywhere near Jezebels, for obvious reasons. 

That Martha sent June down the service elevator that needed a special Martha card key, so that part may not be guarded.  Maybe that's also how Moira got out so easily?

9 hours ago, violet and green said:

Yes! And Fred gave her the 'sexy' outfit and red lipstick. This time a little black dress with cutout back, high black heels with red soles, and a red lipstick just magically appeared in the Commander Lawrence household.

I also found it really annoying the way she staggered along that hallway, having made no effort to at least wipe off the obvious blood. Drama.

I know!  I'm sure the Martha's probably have some stuff tucked away to use, but seriously people?  The right size shoes too?

I had to hand wave that away as well, that outfit didn't look like something Eleanor would have worn in the old days either, but possibly.  (sigh)

7 hours ago, Ariam said:

What was the point of Lawrence giving June the gun? If "they" are coming how is a gun going to help her? Is she going to one handedly fight off the group of trained guards that come in the black van armed with machine guns? They are trained soldiers, she has not even used a gun previously to our knowledge, and they have fucking machine guns. What on earth was the point of the gun???!!! Also, why is commander Lawrence behaving like he's June's puppy? 

Yes, as others said, to easily kill herself, avoid particulation or stoning.

I don't think Lawrence is behaving like June's puppy, I think he's behaving like a man who has suddenly lost all power in a crazy world he helped create, and he's in shock.  His wife just tried to kill him, he had to participate in the ceremony, his passes couldn't even get him across town, his art is all stored away.  June is the only one who came up with a possible way out for him.

Seeing June with blood all over her, I agree with someone upthread who said that Joseph probably doesn't realize that the Martha's took care of everything at Jezebel's. 

June's still in shock and pain from that fight, probably dazed as well, she may not have told him much yet.

Edited August 2, 2019 by Umbelina
typo

[go4luca]

4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Interesting!  If they were both there, it seems more likely that we may see at least something of that next week.  I hope!

For anyone interested, I found where I read that the photo of Luke.  It was in the Forbes review, near the end of their article:

Quote

EDIT: I'm being told this scene wasn't in the episode. This is a screenshot sent to me by Hulu PR, so I assumed I had just missed it. Either way, it appears Luke was there for the arrest....

It may have been on Reddit where I read it may be Moira behind Luke in the vehicle.

[Umbelina]

14 minutes ago, go4luca said:

For anyone interested, I found where I read that the photo of Luke.  It was in the Forbes review, near the end of their article:

It may have been on Reddit where I read it may be Moira behind Luke in the vehicle.

As I said, I posted the article and the photo upthread here.  ❤️

[Ashforth]

3 hours ago, go4luca said:

Re: Luke - saw it posted elsewhere the shot of him in the car was not included in the actual scene but a still photo Hulu provided to reviewers of the episode.  Some believe the blurred figure behind him in the car is Moira.

Okay that is just bullshit on the part of the showrunners.

If it is part of the story, SHOW IT ON THE SCREEN. Why do you want to play mind games with and fuck over the people who are actually watching your show?

Edited August 2, 2019 by Ashforth

[lucindabelle]

14 hours ago, Nonja said:

Count me in as well! And protect me from everyone else.

Table for five! Woo hoo! We're a clique!

Edited to five because I replied too soon.

What can I say. Yes it's partly the actress, but only partly. I see a woman who's believed in something and seen it crumble to its worst elements. It's the nature of cult victims and true believers not to accept being conned until they can't deny it anymore. She's TRIED. She's tried VERY hard to be like Mrs. Winslow and her mother. but she just can't. She can't do it. She had a twinge in the Baptist home. She may wish she didn't, but she did. She may pretend she'd like to put a mouth ring on June but in reality she enjoyed working with her.

It's only been FIVE YEARS. That's really not so long. That's 2014. That's nothing (unless you're very young). 

Told she betrayed her country by Trueller, she suffered. When the mother pulled the little girl away, she suffered. This wasn't what she wanted. And she's come to a point where she can't live with it.

I care about her and can see a redemption of sorts. I hope it sticks this time because I'm tired of the back and forth. I think it will, she's defected.

Edited August 2, 2019 by lucindabelle

[go4luca]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

As I said, I posted the article and the photo upthread here.  ❤️

Yes, I am aware of that. 😉

I posted it in my reply to yours to mine as reference. 

[scrb]

They just happen to have a crematorium under Jezebels?

So much for Winslow being horny for Fred.

And he begged for his life by pointing out “my children” to a Handmaid who’s been raped to bear children against her will.

Yeah I don’t think that was the best way to beg for mercy.

Serena may have set up Fred.  Maybe there was a convo with Tupelo where she was told she’d have to hand over Fred.  Maybe the same convo when he gave her that radio.  But she slept with him the night before so that doesn’t seem like something she’d do if she was going to deliver him to be tried for war crimes.

I’m not clear on whether Fred and Serena took this road trip on their own without official blessing of Gilead.  They were led to some remote place near the border where there wouldn’t be Gilead security?  There can’t be too many roads crossing the border so you’d think all of them would be patrolled.

[scrb]

6 hours ago, chaifan said:

Random thought...  is it possible that Lawrence doesn't know about the Martha network, or at least the full extent of it?  That would make his "they'll be coming for us" make sense.  He has no idea there's a force at work at Jezebel's covering everything up.  He just assumes someone will find Winslow's bloody body, somehow link it to June, etc.  It seems he uses them for Eleanor's drugs, but maybe he doesn't know just how well organized they are.

(Side note: I also find it hard to believe that Jezebel's back door is a) unlocked, b) unguarded, d) no security cameras, and d) the whole lower level had no one around.)

There are 52 Marthas willing to help June on taking kids out of Gilead.

There is a network of underground Martha’s working to bring down Gilead.

So how many Martha’s overall must there be?  The Resistance Marthas are only a fraction of total Marthas?

That must mean how many Commander families?  Several hundred across Gilead?

Or do average Commander households have several Marthas and a high percentage of them are in the Resistance?

[goldilocks]

17 hours ago, mamadrama said:

Chris Meloni has things to say about THAT scene. And also...

You know what the writers were saying to me? They said he stole many of his children from other commanders that he killed

5 hours ago, Ashforth said:

Okay that is just bullshit on the part of the showrunners.

If it is part of the story, SHOW IT ON THE SCREEN. Why do you want to play mind games with and fuck over the people who are actually watching your show

This! Things like that should be put into the show not in other media. Do they really think people have time to read all these articles and watch videos about the show? It’s bad writing if you can’t explain it all in the show itself. 

[goldilocks]

14 hours ago, Ariam said:

Is she going to one handedly fight off the group of trained guards that come in the black van armed with machine guns?

Of course she will! I’m joking about it, but you watch, it will probably happen. 😞

[Guest]

I have zero deep thoughts about this episode because I am not an inherently intelligent person so these were my super-superficial takeaways:

* How did Commander Lawrence, on a moment's notice, acquire a pair of Louboutins that perfectly fit June's feet? Those shoes are a BITCH to size!

* Where is June getting her hair colored? Does the Martha in the household have a beautician's license? No one has hair that color at that age unless it's colored to look like that.

[Violetgoblin6]

As I told my husband (who happens to look just like Mac Minghella, Nick 😉), "Finally, a good episode! Stuff actually happened."

Honestly, I feel the show has been spinning its wheels all season. I was hyped during this episode. Loved the final scene with Kate Bush's glorious Cloudbursting (a favorite since high school) playing. I got shivers. Sometimes this show is truly good stuff. The driving scenes with SJ and Fred were beautifully shot and to me accurately portrayed the destitute landscape of Gilead. So barren (hmmm) and empty, grey. 

I also quite appreciated the use of Portishead at Jezabel's. Loved that band in college, even saw them in Detroit in 1997. I was sitting there singing along. 

I'm looking forward, as always, to pouring through all of your thoughtful, well written responses. I've enjoyed that, sometimes, more than the show this season! 

Quick question: where did Serena Joy and Fred stop? Whose home was that? An Econo wife and husband? 

[Violetgoblin6]

3 hours ago, Giant Misfit said:

I have zero deep thoughts about this episode because I am not an inherently intelligent person so these were my super-superficial takeaways:

* How did Commander Lawrence, on a moment's notice, acquire a pair of Louboutins that perfectly fit June's feet? Those shoes are a BITCH to size!

* Where is June getting her hair colored? Does the Martha in the household have a beautician's license? No one has hair that color at that age unless it's colored to look like that.

I understand! I enjoy writing (my undergraduate degree, believe it or not!) was actually English Literature. However, I have issues translating what I watch visually to page. I'm in awe of the writing on here. 

Totally agree about June's bright blonde hair color! And makeup? Mrs. Lawrence doesn't seem the type? 

[ferjy]

On 8/2/2019 at 1:53 AM, mamadrama said:

Chris Meloni has things to say about THAT scene. And also...

 You know what the writers were saying to me? They said he stole many of his children from other commanders that he killed

Well how the ^*#}%*#~#! were we supposed to know that? It was hard to tell exactly how evil (or possibly even good) Winslow was because of the lack of detail about him. Why do they leave out crucial information like that? Instead they stick in filler trash like June’s “fuck it” closeups. Didn’t think I could get more pissed off at this show. 

[AnswersWanted]

On 8/2/2019 at 1:53 AM, mamadrama said:

You know what the writers were saying to me? They said he stole many of his children from other commanders that he killed

...what...? 

Well I guess it’s a good thing they were saying that to him because they sure as hell never said shit to the audience. 

I didn’t think it could get much worse than: “yeah, we shot Serena in the stomach but why would you dweebs think her UTERUS got compromised? Lady parts are total bullet proof, like duh”, but this bullshit is almost incomprehensible. 

I didn’t think I could be anymore convinced of these writers’ complete ineptitude, and then this kind of “revelation” comes out. 

No wonder they remain so impressed with their work, they have a totally different show playing in their heads. 

41 minutes ago, ferjy said:

Well how the ^*#}%*#~#! were we supposed to know that? It was hard to tell exactly how evil (or possibly even good) Winslow was because of the lack of detail about him. Why do they leave out crucial information like that? Instead they stick in filler trash like June’s “fuck it” closeups. Didn’t think I could get more pissed off at this show. 

These writers have no respect for us, imho, they produce trash and expect us to treasure and appreciate it. 

They want us to follow every goddamn after the episode clip or actor’s interview so we know what’s “really” going on because they don’t show shit on the screen, and no one’s motivation is ever clearly established. 

We have to guess and contemplate possible solutions while sidestepping massive plot holes. 

This nonsense is exactly the reason why I’m not coming back for season 4. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

The writing for Fred is all over the place. We're supposed to believe that this same asshole we've seen since S1 is suddenly encouraging his wife to drive a car in public (I mean, totally secluded but still public). And he never once realized what he took away from Serena and how much it SUCKED for her to not be able to read or write until she pointed it out to him?

And I'm really supposed to believe that when he was arrested for war crimes, his first reaction was to yell at them not to touch Serena and that she hadn't done anything wrong? Yeah right.

But Fred is a total moron. It never occurred to him to ask Serena how well she knew this American and if she trusted him BEFORE they met him at an abandoned gas station in the middle of nowhere?

I was expecting Serena to smile triumphantly after they led her to the other car. I really hope she set his ass up to get arrested. It makes the conversation she had with Rita just before she left make even more sense.

My only regret in Commander Stabler's death is that we didn't get the mandatory naked Meloni scene. Well, and that he didn't stick around long enough to make Fred extremely uncomfortable. Other than that, no complaints about June killing him. Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy!

The Marthas cleaning up the aftermath so efficiently was no surprise. I'm sure that's not the first murder scene they've come across at Jezebel's. I can only imagine how many poor girls were killed there.

Eleanor and the Marthas are the best thing about this show. Someone needs to name their band Eleanor and the Marthas!

Edited August 3, 2019 by ElectricBoogaloo

[sadie]

Has it ever been explained why Commanders and wives can’t have sex? It would seem unlikely they are ALL infertile and sterile. Wouldn’t they let them keep having sex just in case. And if wives commonly have affairs with the guards wouldn’t one of them eventually end up preggars? All I kept thinking was Serena will now be pregnant from her one night stand with Fred?

P.S. As much as I’ve hated this season watching them arrest Fred made it all worthwhile. I rewatched it 3 times. 

[madpsych78]

If Serena's pregnant from her one night stand with Fred, that would throw away an important part of that storyline which is that it is Fred who shoots blanks. 

When we met Winslow's children, weren't some of them, well, children of color? Perhaps that was how they alluded to the fact that they weren't all of Winslow's biological children.

[kieyra]

42 minutes ago, sadie said:

Has it ever been explained why Commanders and wives can’t have sex? It would seem unlikely they are ALL infertile and sterile. Wouldn’t they let them keep having sex just in case. And if wives commonly have affairs with the guards wouldn’t one of them eventually end up preggars? All I kept thinking was Serena will now be pregnant from her one night stand with Fred?

P.S. As much as I’ve hated this season watching them arrest Fred made it all worthwhile. I rewatched it 3 times. 

It’s an extremist theocracy (or something). So sex is bad unless it’s for making more tithe-payers. If you haven’t had any kids after X years as a couple, it’s assumed the wife is infertile (but not the husband). So no sex for those two. The husband can only have sex during the ceremony.

(All of this, of course, relies on the idea of sex as “bad”, and using it as weaponized shame, and also ignores basic human nature.)

(As much as this show loves Serena, I have no doubt the series finale will include a shot of her holding her own baby in her arms. And then everything she did will have been totally worth it!)

[dleighg]

8 hours ago, Violetgoblin6 said:

Honestly, I feel the show has been spinning its wheels all season. I was hyped during this episode.

I feel fortunate. I watched the first episode, was bored. Waited a few weeks then asked here whether anything was going to happen. I was told that the episode in DC was somewhat interesting. So I watched it, was entertained. Waited a few more weeks, dropping in here from time to time to see thousands of complaints about how boring it was, until this episode. So I watched it. Enjoyed it. And I don't feel like I've really missed anything at all!

[dleighg]

27 minutes ago, madpsych78 said:

When we met Winslow's children, weren't some of them, well, children of color? Perhaps that was how they alluded to the fact that they weren't all of Winslow's biological children.

I assumed that he'd had some handmaids who were women of color.

[jenn31]

On 7/31/2019 at 2:50 PM, AnswersWanted said:

I mean...I’ve seen more realistic murder scenes in cartoons. 

Soon June will get cut in two and we’ll have two Junes (God forbid!). Slice her up enough times... hey, that’s how she’ll get all those kids out! 52 Junes (with 52 trucks) for 52 children! Don’t mind me, I’m losing my mind. That’s what these show runners have done to me.

[Umbelina]

6 hours ago, sadie said:

Has it ever been explained why Commanders and wives can’t have sex? It would seem unlikely they are ALL infertile and sterile. Wouldn’t they let them keep having sex just in case. And if wives commonly have affairs with the guards wouldn’t one of them eventually end up preggars? All I kept thinking was Serena will now be pregnant from her one night stand with Fred?

P.S. As much as I’ve hated this season watching them arrest Fred made it all worthwhile. I rewatched it 3 times. 

Sinning is another thing blamed for the fertility crisis, so sex is only allowed for procreation, all else is a sin.  Recreational sex is banned as a terrible sin.

5 hours ago, madpsych78 said:

If Serena's pregnant from her one night stand with Fred, that would throw away an important part of that storyline which is that it is Fred who shoots blanks. 

When we met Winslow's children, weren't some of them, well, children of color? Perhaps that was how they alluded to the fact that they weren't all of Winslow's biological children.

Those kids were older than 5, or some of them were.  Stolen children for sure, but no way of knowing if he ever actually sired a child of "his own."  (yet!  I'm still hoping for flashbacks!)

That interview, and another I posted in the Guy's Thread here, are just interviews done by media of the actor.  They are not produced by the show as any kind of canon or to fill in any story blanks. 

Edited August 3, 2019 by Umbelina

[Miles]

On 7/31/2019 at 6:15 PM, Ms Lark said:

I'm pretty sure the Marthas have had plenty of practice cleaning up victim messes left behind by the pervy Commanders. I want a Marthas spinoff!!

I kinda doubt many women get actually murdered there. Even if they did, the Marthas probably wouldn't have to get rid of the body. It would go to the mourge. The commander would not face any consequences for killing a "hartlot" in "self defense", of course.

So I can buy the Martha's cleaning up the blood. They probably have practice in that. But that body won't just diappear. The furnace didn't seem suitable for cremation at all.

On 7/31/2019 at 8:15 PM, Umbelina said:

Also, that should give her scenes with Moira, which will be fun.  Moira will have to be in at that trial, since she can testify about Fred and Jezebels.  That should really throw Serena into even more anti-Gilead public condemnation. 

99% sure the writers havee already forgotten about Moira being raped by Fred at Jezzebels. I'll be very surprised if she shows up at his trial as a witness.

On 7/31/2019 at 9:02 PM, Umbelina said:

I missed this part, good catch Forbes!

"She lies and says he sends her there to have her do things and then tell him about them later. Winslow tells her to get on the bed and lay on her stomach—we've established pretty clearly that he's gay at this point, and in order to rape her he needs to make believe she's not a woman." 

We've established nothing. We didn't have enough scenes with him for that. There are people who are Bi, a lot of them, even if dumbasses like this writer for Forbes don't seem to understand that.

He also told her to leave her very feminin high heels on, because he was into that and didn't try to cover her up in any way.

On 7/31/2019 at 9:04 PM, tennisgurl said:

I hate that this show is trying to give Serena some kind of half assed redemption, and have tried to make us feel sorry for her losing her not actual baby. She is just as guilty as Fred in the destruction of the US government and the rise of Gilead, and everything that has happened.

I'd argue a lot more so. Fred was just a low level baffoon. She swayed the masses with her speeches and books. She was basically Goebbels.

On 8/1/2019 at 4:54 AM, LittleRed84 said:

So we are to assume that Serena and Fred has sex? Or just had intimacy with cuddling and kissing? What are we supposed to be believing at this point?

My money is on: They had sex and Serena is now pregnant for a ton of added irony and drama.

On 8/1/2019 at 8:54 AM, AnswersWanted said:

June’s pointless struggle should have been over in 3 seconds, with June either unconscious or her neck snapped as you said. 

Snapping somebodies neck isn't as easy as TV often makes it out to be. You'd have to be trained to do it and actually aim to do it.

Being knocked out is also not how it's on TV. If you are out for more than a few seconds, you've suffered serious brain damage. Congratulations!

So he should have overwhelmed her easily, maybe even killed her. But breaking her neck or knocking her out for an extended period of time (without putting her in a coma) wouldn't have been realistic either.

On 8/1/2019 at 10:36 PM, Umbelina said:

Mexico was the most idiotic episode of this show EVER.  I try to pretend it never happened.  😉

I liked it. It showed the difference from the book and why Gilead might actually be somewhat post racial. In that there was actually a massive problem with low birth rates, that effected everbody and so every fertile woman, regardless of race was valued. With Mexico not even having one fertile woman left. As opposed to the book where Gilead ist just a white people breeding program, because white people are afraid that they are being replaced.

Of course handmaids are now as common as sand on the beach and the writers have thrown the post racial stuff right out the window, so I guess that's ompletely ruined now, too...

On 8/2/2019 at 11:00 AM, Ariam said:

What was the point of Lawrence giving June the gun? If "they" are coming how is a gun going to help her? Is she going to one handedly fight off the group of trained guards that come in the black van armed with machine guns? They are trained soldiers, she has not even used a gun previously to our knowledge, and they have fucking machine guns. What on earth was the point of the gun???!!!

Have you watched this show? June could fight off and kill every soldier in the gileadean army with that thing!

On 8/2/2019 at 7:09 PM, go4luca said:

It may have been on Reddit where I read it may be Moira behind Luke in the vehicle.

No matter where you read it, that's 99% her.

15 hours ago, sadie said:

Has it ever been explained why Commanders and wives can’t have sex? It would seem unlikely they are ALL infertile and sterile. Wouldn’t they let them keep having sex just in case. And if wives commonly have affairs with the guards wouldn’t one of them eventually end up preggars? All I kept thinking was Serena will now be pregnant from her one night stand with Fred?

If they are fertile, they are supposed to fuck and maka da babies. But only once a month. Sex is exclusively for procreation in Gilead and everything else is a sin.

But if they have been pretty much proven infertile, they are not supposed to.

I guess if a wife ever got pregnant from a guard she would hump her husband at the first sign of missing a period. Pretty sure if you get a baby out of it, it's okay retroactively. Just in case you could probably say, Jesus came to you in a dream and told you to try again or some shit like that.

15 hours ago, madpsych78 said:

If Serena's pregnant from her one night stand with Fred, that would throw away an important part of that storyline which is that it is Fred who shoots blanks. 

People presumed infertile have been known to make kids. It happens. I don't think these writers can resist the irony that Serena is going to be pregnant now, from her husband, after she had thrown everything away for the chance of a baby.

15 hours ago, madpsych78 said:

When we met Winslow's children, weren't some of them, well, children of color? Perhaps that was how they alluded to the fact that they weren't all of Winslow's biological children.

I mean yeah, they were clearly stolen, since they were too old, to be concieved with handmaids of color, but we assumed they were stolen from Handmaids, just like Hannah was.

Edited August 4, 2019 by Miles

[rubinia]

Re: the children of color, I figured they were children taken from women who were then made to be handmaid's, like Hannah going to the McKenzie's. I'm not sure how we were supposed to infer that he'd killed other commanders for them...

[WearyTraveler]

9 hours ago, Miles said:

I kinda doubt many women get actually murdered there. Even if they did, the Marthas probably wouldn't have to get rid of the body. It would go to the mourge. The commander would not face any consequences for killing a "hartlot" in "self defense", of course.

But the Commanders would face consequences for being at Jezebel's. It's a clandestine place for them, like the speakeasys of the 20s. While some in positions of power endorse the place, the more faithful commanders would punish their fellow commanders for sinning.

[AnswersWanted]

11 hours ago, Miles said:

Snapping somebodies neck isn't as easy as TV often makes it out to be. You'd have to be trained to do it and actually aim to do it.

Being knocked out is also not how it's on TV. If you are out for more than a few seconds, you've suffered serious brain damage. Congratulations!

 So he should have overwhelmed her easily, maybe even killed her. But breaking her neck or knocking her out for an extended period of time (without putting her in a coma) wouldn't have been realistic either.

I worked with a domestic abuse group for a number of years, I’ve seen the sort of physical damage a large man can inflict on a much smaller woman in various ways. 

I know I am referring to TV violence overall, so to watch June getting punched and head slammed against the floor and seeing her pop back up and fight and win said fight, with a fucking pen to boot, was all the bullshit to me. 

In that scene, the way it went down, he was definitely more likely to have snapped her neck or knocked her silly than what actually occurred if we are just throwing all the TV tropes at the wall. 

Whatever realism this show once had left ages ago, I wasn’t listing realistic injuries based on medical science because what’s the point.

But it’d be nice to see some semblance of life, not super human bionic handmaid glory kills. 

Even in TV land the fight between June and Commander Keller was absolute madness, imho, that was my point. 

10 hours ago, rubinia said:

Re: the children of color, I figured they were children taken from women who were then made to be handmaid's, like Hannah going to the McKenzie's. I'm not sure how we were supposed to infer that he'd killed other commanders for them...

This show has basically become Clue, it’s up to the audience to guess almost every damn thing that’s going on and who’s doing what and why.  

A serial killing Commander that hoards kids never really came up in my mind as a character option though I must say...

[Miles]

11 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

But the Commanders would face consequences for being at Jezebel's. It's a clandestine place for them, like the speakeasys of the 20s. While some in positions of power endorse the place, the more faithful commanders would punish their fellow commanders for sinning.

But it's not. Jezzebels is imbedded in the system. Disobediant handmaids are sent there, Marthas work there, etc. It might be frowned upon by some in power and it's hush hush, but no commander is doing something illegal by going there.

Fred did something illegal by bringing his handmaid, but that's a different matter.

8 hours ago, AnswersWanted said:

Whatever realism this show once had left ages ago, I wasn’t listing realistic injuries based on medical science because what’s the point.

But it’d be nice to see some semblance of life, not super human bionic handmaid glory kills. 

I agree with you. Just saying, her neck being snapped or her being knocked out for a long period of time would also be unrealistic.

Realistic would have been her being bruised all over, being dazed after the punch, or even him killing her in multiple ways.

[WearyTraveler]

10 minutes ago, Miles said:

But it's not. Jezzebels is imbedded in the system. Disobediant handmaids are sent there, Marthas work there, etc. It might be frowned upon by some in power and it's hush hush, but no commander is doing something illegal by going there.

Fred did something illegal by bringing his handmaid, but that's a different matter.

The show established that having sex with one's wife for any reason other than procreation is a crime (one of the reasons there are Eyes, I'm sure). It stands to reason that going to Jezebel's to have sex with women is also illegal.

Commander "what's his name" was thoroughly punished for having sex with Janine outside the ceremony, after all.

The Handmaids and Marthas that ended up there were probably meant for the Colonies.

[Miles]

Yeah, that would be reasonable, but nothing about Gilead is actually reasonable. Jezzebels is clearly legal.

[AnswersWanted]

5 minutes ago, Miles said:

I agree with you. Just saying, her neck being snapped or her being knocked out for a long period of time would also be unrealistic.

Realistic would have been her being bruised all over, being dazed after the punch, or even him killing her in multiple ways.

Agreed, that was my whole point, not real life realism so much as Gilead realism. 

I should have made it clearer I was talking about fictional realism for a TV show that's supposed to be about average human beings with normal human limitations, not all this super heroic Sci-Fi shit they keep throwing in. 

My brain can only give so many fanwank passes before I just get pissed off. 

If June has the ability to fight off a man that size then reasonably he should be the mf-ing Hulk and have smashed her ass in two seconds flat. 

But since the show doesn't give a shit one way or another I should probably save my rage, but then where's the fun in that? Heh. 

[Umbelina]

I don't think that anyone is arguing that if Winslow's goal was to kill June, she would be dead. 

He didn't want to kill her, and probably wanted her conscious as well.  Some men like sex with the dead, or with unconscious women, but Winslow gets off on power.  He wanted her alive and struggling while he raped her.  She got in a lucky stab between the ribs, after multiple attempts, it nicked a lung, and left him disabled enough to kill him with a blunt object smash to his skull.

June was bruised, and she WAS dazed, and breathless, and not thinking clearly, or she would have put on her shoes and cleaned up before she left.  The Martha had to rouse her to get her to leave.

Jezebels is certainly not legal, but it's a gray area, since SOME of the powerful commanders (not all) both know about it and use it.  Since they make the rules (laws) I'd call it "allowed" but if it were exposed (as Moira should have already done, since she has access to every kind of media, including social, phones, TV, books, blogs, etc?)  There is no chance in hell the commanders would publicly defend it as "legal."