S08.E06: The Iron Throne

[Brn2bwild]

9 minutes ago, Nashville said:

The most poignant takeaway from this finale for me?  Dany got to see the Iron Throne, touch it even - but she never got to sit on it.

Hey, Valerya’s a long ways off.  Maybe Drogon figured carrying a mid-flight snack wasn’t a bad idea.  ;>

I just watched that scene, and the music when she finally touched the Iron Throne brought tears to my eyes.  Dammit show, why'd you have to make her evil?  Why couldn't you at least let her sit on the throne before Jon comes?

[VCRTracking]

35 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

I just watched that scene, and the music when she finally touched the Iron Throne brought tears to my eyes.  Dammit show, why'd you have to make her evil?  Why couldn't you at least let her sit on the throne before Jon comes?

I think if Dany hadn't made that speech and had just been satisfied with defeating Cersei and now ruling Westeros Jon wouldn't have decided to kill her. It wasn't enough though and she had to go for "world domination".  It was her lust for more conquering that was her undoing. As Bronn said "Kill a thousand they make you a king" Lots of rulers have bloody pasts but are remembered for their benevolence like Odin in Thor Ragnarok but she wanted to keep going like Hela. Jon killing her wasn't punishment for King's Landing it was preventing more death. It's like after Hiroshima and Nagasaki, instead of peace the US went "Now it's your turn Russia! And you Germany, even though Hitler's dead and all you countries in Europe and Asia who want to mess with us are going to get nuked!

Edited May 21, 2019 by VCRTracking

[GustavMahler]

I have a rather delicate question. Is Sansa able to give birth to an heir? I seem to recall that she mentioned that Ramsey, in his sadistic way, "ruined" her.

[MrsR]

No, the opposite. Miranda said Ramsey wanted children so that was off limits but any other "piece of you" was fair game.

[VCRTracking]

[ElectricBoogaloo]

9 hours ago, lmsweb said:

That reminds me - I've seen a lot of posts saying Sansa can't have kids either. They made it pretty clear just before she escaped with Theon that Ramsay was being careful not to do anything to her that would prevent her with providing him with an heir in her conversation with Myranda:

"Dying? Who said anything about dying? You can't die. Your father was Warden of the North, and Ramsay needs you. But I suppose he doesn't need all of you. Just the parts he needs to make his heir, until you've given him a boy or two and he's finished using them. Then, he's got incredible plans for those parts. So, shall we wait for him to come back, or should we begin now? You're leaving it to me? Good. Let's begin."

I never assumed that Sansa COULDN'T have children, but I thought that given what Ramsay had done to her, she wouldn't ever want to have sex or be vulnerable with a man again. On the flip side, she is the one most dedicated to the whole Stark family legacy, so it wouldn't surprise me if in a few years, she married someone and gritted her teeth through sex until she bore an heir or two to ensure that the Stark family will continue.

If you had told me during the first episode that the Stark family, which had three sons and two daughters (and a bastard), would end the show with the very real possibility of zero heirs, I would have been very doubtful.

8 hours ago, catrice2 said:

So now we know what Bran and Tyrion were talking about during the Long Night...as well as Sansa and Tyrion. 

I totally think this was planned...or Tyrion got some idea. I am not convinced that Dany was not being drugged with mind altering drugs.  She was so busy watching Varys that they were not watching Tyrion closely. 

Tyrion got rid of Varys, and it is not coincidental that he is the brains behind Bran's straw king, and Sansa is the Queen with what she wanted all along. 

He knew Jon was weak and easily manipulated and he was already having doubts about Dany.

Dany was stupid anyway to ever trust him. He had an emotional connection to Kings Landing ,with or without his brother and sister still being there. It was where he grew up, had memories, now way he was going to do anything really against the city.

Didn't Jaime, Cersei, and Tyrion grow up at Casterly Rock? I assumed that the Lannister siblings didn't move to King's Landing until their teen years when Cersei married Robert.

[Lady S.]

10 hours ago, Affogato said:

I’m pretty sure that they would take her name to save the line. And there is decree of monarch. 

I don’t think taking the name of higher rank is modern, Though. 

Yeah, and it's not just Sansa's name, it's her brothers' and father's and paternal uncles' and grandfather's and further forefathers' for thousands of years. There's nothing particularly progressive about saving the name of a long line of powerful men from going extinct. The 8,000 years of Stark rule figure is already outrageous but I really can't believe it lasted in an unbroken male line. Sansa is probably just the first lady to rule in her own name instead of having the claim go straight to her son. And I know people are obsessed with the Elizabeth I comparisons but I see no reason to assume she's determined to spend the rest of her life single just because she wasn't in a hurry to get remarried after Ramsay.

[darkestboy]

I didn't hate this finale, I even enjoyed a lot of parts of it but again, it probably could've been better than what we actually got, though that can be said for the whole season.

I will hate how Daenerys's arc turned, given the shoddy build up to it, but I saw Jon killing her coming a mile off. Drogon taking her body away and melting the Iron Throne down though I didn't quite see but should've done.

Bran becoming ruler of the Six Kingdoms, I also didn't like but who else aside from maybe Sansa would've been a better option to be honest?

I did like Brienne, Tyrion, Bronn, Samwell and Davos being his council though. Tyrion is really lucky to be alive. 

Jaime and Cersei managed to make a brief post death appearance lol. Jon's reunion with Ghost was sweet.

Sansa, Jon and Arya all got solid endings. The remaining Starks did come off well from this last episode.

Nice appearances from some forgotten characters as well. Too bad we'll never get to know the new Dorne Prince though.

It wasn't a perfect series finale but no way does it deserve to be any worst lists either, 7/10

[GodsBeloved]

16 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

Speaking of propaganda / deterrent, Sansa should put a sign saying:

Stannis: died in the north
Bolton backed by Lannister: died in the north
Night King: died in the north
Next?

There it is 

🤣

[GodsBeloved]

15 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

Yeah.  She was the kind of leader who freed you from slavery but in turn she expected your blind loyalty forever (or else dragon fire!!!)

That's the thing that I kept tripping over with her.

Yeah you freed the slaves yet have a problem when someone you think owes you their servitude does not want to be subservient to you.

I always remember Missandei proudly proclaiming to Davos that they chose to follow Dany. That's well and good but what if others choose not to. What then?

[Uncle JUICE]

LAte to the party I know. I have never experienced a finale like this. The entire season and the back half of S7 were basically like falling down a flight of stairs. Once you start falling, you know there's only one ending, it's going to suck all the way down and it's going to really hurt when you hit the bottom, but you just want to get there already, as quickly as possible, you don't care if it's graceless and anyone's watching, you just want it to be over. 

I wish I could have been in the writer's room when these guys came up with these beats. Someone in there needed to be like "So you guys want to make Bran the king...you remember we left him out OF AN ENTIRE SEASON OF THIS PROGRAM and no one cared? Like not one person on the entire internet said "This season was good, but it needed more of Bran's story." THat's bad, I mean you guys know how the internet is, right? It's basically the one subject the entire internet agreed on. Why on earth would you make him king?" 

Drogon melting the Iron Throne was cool, but why didn't he burn Jon? I hated that scene for Jon by the way. I thought Danerys had a great couple of moments trying to sell the whole thing to him, but Kit Harrington just isn't really up to that level of sort of emotional reactive acting. But Drogon shows up and out-emotes Kit Harrington, then for no reason I can think of does NOT burn Jon. I saw one theory that, tongue in cheek, said Drogon saw the knife in his mom's belly and decided she was attacked by the chair made of knives. Honestly makes more sense than him identifying the throne as the corrupting object and a symbol of the realm's sociological woes. 

I'm sorry if someone addressed it, but why wasn't Tyrion killed immediately by Dany?

[Lady S.]

[Uncle JUICE]

Also, why the hell was Bronn on the small council? So the last we see of Bronn before two minutes to go making jokes about brothels in the middle of a meeting about how to rebuild a city under a completely new style of government, he was literally threatening to kill Tyrion and Jaime. Qualifications aside, why the hell would Tyrion not take him out to end that threat forever? 

Just another character this program kept around for far too long. 

[Bryce Lynch]

12 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

Liberating and forgetting about them and then sending Daario Naharis and some Second Sons to re-liberate them when they fell back into slavery as she had to do in Yunkai and Astapor. She's been a great conqueror, but crap ruler for a long time.

So, she liberated them, the masters retake the cities and she sends troops back to liberate them again and that is a bad thing.   She did not intend to rule Astopor and Yunkaii.  She wanted the people to rule themselves and she gave them the military aid to accomplish this. 

[Bryce Lynch]

39 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

That's the thing that I kept tripping over with her.

Yeah you freed the slaves yet have a problem when someone you think owes you their servitude does not want to be subservient to you.

I always remember Missandei proudly proclaiming to Davos that they chose to follow Dany. That's well and good but what if others choose not to. What then?

There is a difference, especially in a society like the ones in GOT, between being a slave and being expected to obey the commands of the rightful King or Queen.   Dany's subjects had a great deal of freedom, at least as much as the people of Westeros.  

[Constantinople]

Is Daenerys the last character to die in Game of Thrones?

[QuinnM]

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

So, she liberated them, the masters retake the cities and she sends troops back to liberate them again and that is a bad thing.   She did not intend to rule Astopor and Yunkaii.  She wanted the people to rule themselves and she gave them the military aid to accomplish this. 

Ture.  I never thought she cared much to rule anything other than Westeros.  The conquering was just what she needed to do to get her army, her ships and get to where she wanted to rule.  The arc really took off for me when she got to Dragonstone.  It was also where you saw the imperious kneel or die behavior start.

And it continued to grow even as she went North to fight the NK.  The look on her face when she said that Sansa WILL respect her.  I thought she was a real B and that Jon needed to run.  The nail in that coffin was that her first reaction to finding out that Jon had an identity that put him ahead of her for the throne was to get angry.

So mad queen?  No idea that was coming?  I didn't think so.  What was interesting to me was that she was killed before she could reach the true height of terror for the entire know world.

[WatchrTina]

7 hours ago, CatWarmer said:

- I more or less caught Jon’s mostly hidden arm movement with the knife. Looks like he got her in the midsection and angled up.  But I think the knife went right through her chain?

Are there any other Outlander fans here?  Jon's shanking of Mad Queen Dany was exactly the technique that Angus taught Claire in his how-to-use-a-dirk lesson in Season 1 of that show.

11 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Is Daenerys the last character to die in Game of Thrones?

She's the last named character to die on camera.  Alas, after that battle there are probably wounded people dying all over the city all during the episode.  But yeah, Dany being the last death is pretty damned poignant.

Edited May 21, 2019 by WatchrTina

[Nashville]

1 hour ago, Lady S. said:

Yeah, and it's not just Sansa's name, it's her brothers' and father's and paternal uncles' and grandfather's and further forefathers' for thousands of years. There's nothing particularly progressive about saving the name of a long line of powerful men from going extinct. The 8,000 years of Stark rule figure is already outrageous but I really can't believe it lasted in an unbroken male line. Sansa is probably just the first lady to rule in her own name instead of having the claim go straight to her son. And I know people are obsessed with the Elizabeth I comparisons but I see no reason to assume she's determined to spend the rest of her life single just because she wasn't in a hurry to get remarried after Ramsay.

I don’t see what all the confusion is about; whether Sansa ever remarries or not, the Stark name will now live on.  Or have y’all already forgotten Sansa is now Queen of the North?  

At this point it doesn’t really matter if Sansa gets knocked up by a particularly well-hung stable boy, and spits out a little bastard nine months later; all Sansa has to do is take a page out of Dany’s playbook a la Gendry, and abracadabra!  - said bastard is now declared by the Queen to be a legitimate Stark, and heir to all the family holdings.

29 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

That's the thing that I kept tripping over with her.

Yeah you freed the slaves yet have a problem when someone you think owes you their servitude does not want to be subservient to you.

I always remember Missandei proudly proclaiming to Davos that they chose to follow Dany. That's well and good but what if others choose not to. What then?

Well, that’s kinda the thing which eventually tripped up Dany.  In the beginning (with the Unsullied, and the first few towns’ worth of slaves she liberated) Dany gave the newly liberated the freedom to choose whether or not to follow her - and they either chose to do so, or were free to go their own way.

Once Dany got to Westeros she stopped asking, though, and any semblance of a choice ceased to exist; you either fell in line behind Dany, or you became the next Dragon’s Bad Breath Blue Plate Special.  

In DanyLand freedom was an option for everybody in the world - except her own subjects.

[Drogo]

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Didn't Jaime, Cersei, and Tyrion grow up at Casterly Rock? I assumed that the Lannister siblings didn't move to King's Landing until their teen years when Cersei married Robert.

Most of their childhood in CR.  Tywin was called to the capital when Cersei and Jaime were 9.  He planned to take Jaime only but Cersei insisted on going too because she's always been a pain in the ass. 

Jaime joined the Kingsguard at 16.

[Constantinople]

What happened to Arya's white horse that she was riding at the end of the previous episode?

Did I miss it, or did it just disappear?

[Drogo]

12 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

There is a difference, especially in a society like the ones in GOT, between being a slave and being expected to obey the commands of the rightful King or Queen.   Dany's subjects had a great deal of freedom, at least as much as the people of Westeros.  

Exactly.  And not just in GOT society: we're free but there are laws and law enforcement officers that keep us in line and ensure the strong aren't taking advantage of the weak. 

Lighting up the whole city is still a hard sell, but her general "Follow the rules or get fucked" philosophy doesn't make her a tyrant; it makes her a ruler. 

Just now, Constantinople said:

What happened to Arya's white horse that she was riding at the end of the previous episode?

Did I miss it, or did it just disappear?

It heard Bran the Broken was the new king and sailed off with the Dothraki.  Poison water be damned.

[Lady S.]

13 minutes ago, Nashville said:

In DanyLand freedom was an option for everybody in the world - except her own subjects.

How do y'all think the Starks and other great houses stay in power over their lesser lords and subjects? Slavery is illegal in Westeros but nobody was truly 21st century free, so Dany's attitude toward her own countrymen vs. others whose ancestors never served her family is pretty consistent with the society in Westeros. I'm not talking about her heel turn of liberating civilians through mass murder but in an ep in which the big name lords laughingly compare their people to livestock it's a bit weird to see people acting like Dany invented bend the knee or else.

Edited May 21, 2019 by Lady S.

[RealReality]

4 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Exactly.  And not just in GOT society: we're free but there are laws and law enforcement officers that keep us in line and ensure the strong aren't taking advantage of the weak. 

Lighting up the whole city is still a hard sell, but her general "Follow the rules or get fucked" philosophy doesn't make her a tyrant; it makes her a ruler. 

It heard Bran the Broken was the new king and sailed off with the Dothraki.  Poison water be damned.

Not sure if her subjects really had a great deal of freedom.  After she freed the region of slaves she didn't have a ton of rules, but that was her first for at into leadership.  The unsullied and dothraki didn't really try to make independent moves and seemed to mostly follow her into military conflicts.

Burning an entire city of people who didn't disobey any of her rules is a little more than a hard sell.  And its not really part of the philosophy that if you disobey the rules there are consequences.

That it was always in her nature to behave this way is up for debate with people who remember all the nuances from past seasons.  But I don't think any reasoning can make her annihilation of Kings Landing reasonable...though, as expected, she tried to justify it.  

[screamin]

On ‎5‎/‎20‎/‎2019 at 12:31 AM, catrice2 said:

Yes, but Unsullied were raised to not care about dying.  Greyworm had lost everything..what logically did he care about that would have prevented him from quickly killing both of them while they were in captivity and just taking the consequences?  Their life expectancy was not high before or after Dany acquired them and I am sure he never expected to live long an prosper...why not go out fighting, that is what they trained for their whole lives.  Lazy writing that did not make any sense.....

I do think he'd had hopes of retiring to Naath eventually to help Missandei's family in her memory.

[WatchrTina]

10 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

What happened to Arya's white horse that she was riding at the end of the previous episode?

Did I miss it, or did it just disappear?

You didn't miss it.  She rides out of the city on a pale horse (like death) and then, after washing her face, she came back.  I have to assume that the "triumph of the will" ceremony had to take place at least several hours, possible a couple days AFTER the battle.  Surely the unsullied tended to their wounded before lining up in ranks to celebrate the victory.  So I assume Arya rode somewhere relatively safe after the battle, washed her face, found something to eat, had a bit of a weep (I would), got some sleep and only then snuck back into the city to find Jon.

[RealReality]

4 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

How do y'all think the Starks and other great houses stay in power over their lesser lords and subjects? Slavery is illegal in Westeros but nobody was truly 21st century free, so Dany's attitude toward her own countrymen vs. others whose ancestors never served her family is pretty consistent with the society in Westeros. I'm not talking about her heel turn of liberating civilians through mass murder but in an ep in which the big name lords laughingly compare their people to livestock it's a bit weird to see people acting like Dany invented bend the knee or else.

But her point was to break the wheel, so I don't see why she would have wanted to hold herself to the standard of other rulers she finds unworthy.

I mean, if she was going to be more if the same, what's the point of changing rulers other than the fact that Dany really wanted to sit on the IT?  Just let cersei stay on it...I mean she already has the room decorated and her favorite wines are there.  And it's so hard to find movers that don't break something.

SHE sold herself as something different.

[Constantinople]

9 hours ago, RealReality said:

I think the biggest threat to the north is going to be the next ruler who decides they'd like the north back in the fold.  It'll be six kingdoms vs. the north.

I can understand why a ruler of the Seven Kingdoms wouldn't want to grant independence to the North because then all of the other kingdoms should be clamoring for it too.

But once the North is independent, I'm not sure why they'd want the North back. I'm not sure what it has to offer despite being as large as the other 6 kingdoms put together. I don't recall the show having any natural resources of particular value or that weren't available in the South, nor is it a heavily populated area.

[Lady S.]

Just now, RealReality said:

But her point was to break the wheel, so I don't see why she would have wanted to hold herself to the standard of other rulers she finds unworthy.

We never knew what the hell breaking the wheel meant, but up until recently she only threatened the lords, not the smallfolk. She could limit the powers of the lords over their peasants and issue laws protecting the people while retaining power for herself. There was no way she was going to get in a position to change anything by asking the Randyll Tarlys of the world nicely.

[Constantinople]

I don't know where people get this idea that "Breaking the Wheel" means people are free to do whatever they want. Nor does it mean people are free to choose what laws they'll obey, or they're free to ignore or overthrow the government, any more than it means that today. No society has or can operate that way, so I don't know why this expectation has been placed on Daenerys.

The only time Daenerys mentioned breaking the wheel was in the context of the nobility not mistreating the commoners.  That's it. It just means that, ideally, the Pyps of the world won't be exiled to the Wall because they won't give a lord a blow job, and the nobility will think of their subjects as people, not dogs and horses.
 

Quote

Daenerys: Lannister, Targaryen, Baratheon, Stark, Tyrell. They’re all just spokes on a wheel. This one's on top, then that ones on top and on and on it spins, crushing the people on the ground.

Tyrion: It’s a beautiful dream. Stopping the wheel. You’re not the first person to have dreamt it.

Daenerys: I’m not going to stop the wheel. I’m going to break the wheel.

Hardhome, Season 5 Episode 8

Edited May 21, 2019 by Constantinople

[MrWhyt]

9 hours ago, millennium said:

Rebel?

yes poor choice of words on her part, i would've used "become whiny little pissy babies"

[Nashville]

19 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

How do y'all think the Starks and other great houses stay in power over their lesser lords and subjects?

Certainly not by frying their own subjects.

19 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

Slavery is illegal in Westeros but nobody was truly 21st century free, so Dany's attitude toward her own countrymen vs. others whose ancestors never served her family is pretty consistent with the society in Westeros. I'm not talking about her heel turn of liberating civilians through mass murder but in an ep in which the big name lords laughingly compare their people to livestock it's a bit weird to see people acting like Dany invented bend the knee or else.

You misunderstand my point.  Of course in foreign lands Daenerys is going to play up the “Dany the Liberator” angle; it’s what feeds the volunteer army she needs to achieve her ultimate goal, which is the conquest and re-acquisition of her family’s throne in Westeros.  And no one in Westeros has any expectation of independence, especially the subjects of rule.  Play in the Game of Thrones is exclusive to the royal Houses; commoners need not apply.

But it was Dany who seemed to have the expectation of being hailed as a liberator by the Westerosi subjects, and frustrated when she was not - which is mightily confusing in the extreme,  considering their liberation was never on the table.  And it was Dany’s decision to inflict upon the common people of King’s Landing the consequences which by all rights should have been reserved solely for the nobles ensconced in the Red Keep.  Dany made the common folk suffer by the rules of a game they weren’t even invited to play..

[Constantinople]

After watching this episode, and rewatching some of Season 1, the whole idea of "King Bran" makes me dislike Jaime even more for botching the job of trying to kill Bran, and retroactively removes Theon's redemption arc since he saved the little brat back in Season 1.

On the other hand, it turns out King Robert was  prophet of sorts, just a little off with his timing

Quote

Ned Stark: The Targaryen girl
Robert Baratheon: Seven hells! Don’t start with her again! The girl will die

[Lady S.]

4 minutes ago, Nashville said:

Certainly not by frying their own subjects.

You misunderstand my point.  Of course in foreign lands Daenerys is going to play up the “Dany the Liberator” angle; it’s what feeds the volunteer army she needs to achieve her ultimate goal, which is the conquest and re-acquisition of her family’s throne in Westeros.  And no one in Westeros has any expectation of independence, especially the subjects of rule.  Play in the Game of Thrones is exclusive to the royal Houses; commoners need not apply.

But it was Dany who seemed to have the expectation of being hailed as a liberator by the Westerosi subjects, and frustrated when she was not - which is mightily confusing in the extreme,  considering their liberation was never on the table.  And it was Dany’s decision to inflict upon the common people of King’s Landing the consequences which by all rights should have been reserved solely for the nobles ensconced in the Red Keep.  Dany made the common folk suffer by the rules of a game they weren’t even invited to play..

I don't think Dany's mindset in the last two eps was the same one she entered Westeros with when Jorah, Missandei, and all her dragons were still alive, but I'm also not interested in arguing about that. This bend the knee point has been used against her since well before she started frying civilians, with these posts saying it had always been her problem, and I thought it was clear I was talking about that.

[Bryce Lynch]

10 hours ago, millennium said:

He was a noble character until the last two episodes when he became kind of a dick.

I think being Queen in the North has already started to go to Sophie Turner's head.  When asked about the negative fan reaction to the finale, she told the New York Times:

Rebel?

Yeah, it seems like Sophie expects all the fans to bow down and proclaim it to be the greatest finale that ever was or ever will be, no matter how crappy it was.

The fact is, Season 8 has a 37% favorable audience rating on Rotten Tomatoes.  A large majority of fans think Season 8 was crap.   

I don't know why she is so defensive.  I don't think anyone is blaming her acting. 

The petition is a little silly, since it will never happen, though I am glad fans are using it to vent and let D&D know how much they suck.   

[Bryce Lynch]

On 5/20/2019 at 10:50 AM, DarkRaichu said:

Was I the only one wanting to slap Barn's face when he smirked as he said "why do you think I come all the way down here" or "you were where you were supposed to be" ?

So you KNEW hundreds of thousands were going to die just so you could be a king, you little GoT player twerp!!! 👿👿👿

Bran's character has been horribly written, almost from day 1, and especially since he met the 3ER.  While I can understand there being some mystery around is purpose and powers as 3ER, neither were ever coherently or consistently defined.   

Is he really as powerful and all knowing as they make him out to be, at times?  If so, why does he not use his knowledge and power more productively to save lives and promote justice.

Also, he seems to lack any human empathy, which would make him a rather odd choice for King.   

[Lady S.]

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, Lady S. said:

How do y'all think the Starks and other great houses stay in power over their lesser lords and subjects? Slavery is illegal in Westeros but nobody was truly 21st century free, so Dany's attitude toward her own countrymen vs. others whose ancestors never served her family is pretty consistent with the society in Westeros. I'm not talking about her heel turn of liberating civilians through mass murder but in an ep in which the big name lords laughingly compare their people to livestock it's a bit weird to see people acting like Dany invented bend the knee or else.

Well said.  And unlike the other nobles of Westeros, she had an entirely volunteer army of soldiers who followed her because they believed in her.   

What happened to House Reyne, when they no longer wanted to bend the knee to House Lannister?   

What did Robb threaten to do to Greatjon Umber if he abandoned him and marched his troops home.

There was a hierarchy in Westeros that Dany did not invent, and that had existed for thousands of years.  There were Great Lords who bent the knee to Kings and Queens, Lords who bent the knee to Great Lords, Kings and Queens and commoners who bent the knee to their Lords, the Great Lords and the Kings and Queens.  

Of course Dany claimed she wanted to break that wheel, though, it was never quite clear what that meant.   

[izabella]

The show really had no idea what to do with Bran after the source material ran out, nor did they ever care about the magic except for dragons.  I have to believe his role in the last part of the story would be a lot different, highly significant and make a hell of a lot more sense if the books were ever finished.

i also believe Jon being a Targaryen would also have more meaning.  The show fell down on the job in a lot of ways, but especially on his parentage and why it even mattered.

[LadyPenelope]

1 hour ago, Drogo said:

Most of their childhood in CR.  Tywin was called to the capital when Cersei and Jaime were 9.  He planned to take Jaime only but Cersei insisted on going too because she's always been a pain in the ass. 

Jaime joined the Kingsguard at 16.

I’m pretty sure only Cersei went with him, because Tywin was plotting to marry her to Rhaegar. That’s why she convinced Jaime to join the Kingsguard, so he would be in KL too. But Tywin was so furious over it that he quit his job as Hand and took Cersei back to Casterly Rock, leaving Jaime alone there where he remained until the end of the war. Regardless, pretty sure Tyrion was mainly at the Rock. 

That little pedantry is all I have to say about the episode really. It was very meh. The only scenes that made me feel anything were Tyrion in the rubble, and Brienne writing in the Kingsguard book*. Which is a shame, as Dany dying should have been hugely emotional but felt lacking, maybe due to the acting or the utter lack of chemistry between her and Jon.

One thing I found odd was the lack of any future to the current set-up. They are all childless, with little prospect of having children. What will happen when the current group is dead? It just seems like Westeros will be plunged back into war. Even if they plan on voting for the new kings, how long before that turns into a Vatican-esque game of threats and bribes and alliances? 

*Potentially my favourite scene - I thought that was a great testament to her sense of honour and fairness. I liked the twist to her mouth as she wrote the final line that Jaime “died protecting his queen” - that more than any of the rest of it captured his life and who he was. I’m going to miss Jaime Lannister, the ridiculous idiot.

[AnnaL]

On 5/19/2019 at 10:31 PM, UNOSEZ said:

I won't say Mad only because the implication seems to have gotten wrapped up in some female empowerment issues that I'm not qualified for... But she was delusional and completely wrapped up in her own supremacy by that point.. Not even a second thought to what she had done... She was looong gone

This was the most scary part about Daenerys. 

The previous episode I had thought that she snapped due to grief, anger and resentment. I am not making excuses for what she did but I could understand a moment of madness when combined with a fiery dragon was a recipe for disaster. I imagined that when she came down from this moment she would be horrified by her actions and maybe take herself out of the game by flying out to Essos promising to never come back to Westeros as penance for this mass murdering of innocent people. 

This episode however, when she talked to her troops, it was chilling, no only she was not regretful, she was almost boasting, she talked about liberating them from a tyrant as thousands of burned corpses were not still piling on the streets. I was like WTF? She even went as far as promising that she will do the exact same to all kingdoms, not only in Westeros but in Essos as well. It was infuriating that Jon still keep trying to justify her but then I figured he didn't understand Valiryan so probably her discourse hadn't really set in. 

Her speech to Jon about how she knows how to make the world better and how "others do not get to choose" was straight up lifted from one of Hitler speeches, that moment her face, her demeanor, her tone of voice reminded me so much of her brother Vyserys, it was scary, because how can she change her behavior if she didn't see anything wrong with it? how can she change if she doesn't acknowledge that she has murdered thousands of people who didn't choose this war. If she promises more of the same in the future?

It is kind of humbling to see that for years we have thought that the big threat to humanity was the NK, Jon had gone above and beyond to unite the kingdoms and fight against the common threat, in the meantime the biggest threat was not the NK, but a goddess looking petite woman with seemingly good intentions and a dragon. A woman obsessed with birthright, arrogance and with a savior complex but with the right speech, talking about liberating slaves and empowering the poor.  Jon and Tyrion were most of the viewers, they wanted so badly to believe that she was different, that she was going to change everything for the better. How wrong they were. 

Jon might not have killed the NK, but he sure made up for it by killing the Mad Queen.  "They can choose to live in my new world or they can die in their old one" - really scary when you think about the number of people who still chose to support her even in the face of her madness. 

[Bryce Lynch]

15 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

LOL!  If Bronn got Highgarden for merely not killing the Hand, how much should Meera be owed for dragging Bran around and protecting him all those years?  She should at least get The Twins.  

Edited May 21, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[taanja]

On 5/19/2019 at 10:22 PM, Bryce Lynch said:

Right, Drogon is apparently capable of abstract thought that seeking that stupid chair killed his Mommy, but not the concrete thought that the man who plunged a dagger into his Mommy's heart was standing in front of him.

Thank you! I guess I am the only one who rolled my eyes at that scene. That was just -- say what? The dragons have always been portrayed as big lumbering beasts--instinctual but not especially bright. To assign it motive and logical thought??? Just no. (but the silly dragons are/were the least favorite part of the show for me.)

Oh and upon re-watch-- when Dany gives her big winners speech to the Dothraki and Unsullied in that language that isn't the "common tongue" -- ummm... how does anyone but the Dothraki and Unsullied understand what she is saying?

Jon Snow or Arya and even Tyrion (who may understand a little and speak even less as one scene specifically showed) don't speak or understand the language. So how do they understand what Dany is saying? to the point they decide she needs to be killed?

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, taanja said:

Thank you! I guess I am the only one who rolled my eyes at that scene. That was just -- say what? The dragons have always been portrayed as big lumbering beasts--instinctual but not especially bright. To assign it motive and logical thought??? Just no. (but the silly dragons are/were the least favorite part of the show for me.)

Oh and upon re-watch-- when Dany gives her big winners speech to the Dothraki and Unsullied in that language that isn't the "common tongue" -- ummm... how does anyone but the Dothraki and Unsullied understand what she is saying?

Jon Snow or Arya and even Tyrion (who may understand a little and speak even less as one scene specifically showed) don't speak or understand the language. So how do they understand what Dany is saying? to the point they decide she needs to be killed?

I was thinking the same thing about Dany's speech.  If it was in Valyrian, the Dothraki wouldn't understand and if it was in Dothraki, the Unsullied wouldn't understand.  

I think Tyrion speaks a little Valyrian.  I believe they made a joke of him speaking it badly, once or twice.    

In the past they could have had Jorah translate into Dothraki (I think he spoke Valyrian) or Missandei translate in either direction, but they are both dead.  

[AnnaL]

On 5/19/2019 at 10:39 PM, Advance35 said:

I don't care about anything else. I'm just psyched Sansa is an honest to goodness Queen.  

Her dress was awesome.   I am looking for a full shot of it because it just might be my favorite outfit yet, where she is concerned.   Liked the hair too.

Jon will meet someone else.   I didn't like either of his love interest but all in all, he seemed happiest when he was with Ygritte.   So there is something over the horizon for him.

Jon has such bad luck when it comes to romantic love. 

He fell in love with Ygritte but that was not a healthy relationship by any means. He was under the pretense of being a turn cloak and basically had to be with her to prove to the free folk that he really had deserted the NW. Ygritte was relentless on her pursuit and finally got lucky when Jon was put in a life or death situation by Mance Raider who basically put him on the spot and didn't back down until Ygritte vouched for him but the price was to lie with her. Of course he loved her, of course he did, she was his first love, the purest kind, his sexual awareness. But he was also very conflicted about it, he knew he was breaking his vows, he knew he had to return to CB and there was no way he could take her with him. He knew that his love was not meant to last. Not for one second he considered the possibility of not returning to the NW, not even for her. Her death was so painful to him because he tried so hard to convince her that attacking CB was not going to end in nothing but death, that they wouldn't succeed. Their love was an impossible one. 

Daenerys, well she surely was beautiful and I am sure the attraction was there (none that I could see but I trust that this is what they were trying to convey) she was powerful, she had the right intentions (at the time I guess) and once she pledge her support, maybe even before, they fell in love. I am sure that if Jon would had know he was his aunt, he would have not pursued a relationship with her, he would have been attracted/ love her but I am sure he would not have been with her. Their love was so difficult, it was plagued with very tense moments. IMO deep inside himself Jon could see or sense that Daenerys had this darkness inside her but his love overshadowed that and he wanted so hard to believe in her and for her to become the great queen he thought she could be. Her turn to her worst instincts must have been specially difficult for Jon and now he has to live with the regret of killing her. 

Actually his path is difficult because he probably regrets a lot of things, regret of killing her, regret of not being able to stop the massacre, regret of not noticing before and doing something about it, regret of not claiming the throne and stopping the madness before it happened, regret of even learning or saying anything about his birth. I hope Tormund can help Jon to realize that he did humanity a great service by getting rid of Daenerys, he saved thousand of lives. It won't help much with the guilt but hopefully it will give him some relief. 

My wish for Jon is that he finds a good woman, someone who can give him all the love he deserves, someone who can help him to get his self-confidence back, someone who can make him laugh and not take things so seriously, someone who can give him children to love and cherish. After these two past experiences it probably be hard for Jon to ever try to fall in love again but I do hope with time he will give himself another chance. Nobody deserves to be happy more than Jon does and I do hope he gets that. A simple life, but filled with love and a family is what I want for him. 

[VCRTracking]

[Drogo]

4 minutes ago, taanja said:

Jon Snow or Arya and even Tyrion (who may understand a little and speak even less as one scene specifically showed) don't speak or understand the language. So how do they understand what Dany is saying? to the point they decide she needs to be killed?

They didn't understand what she said in Dothraki or Valyrian.  They were making assumptions based on her tone and the crowd's response to what she was saying. 

"I can't justify what happened, I won't even try.  But the war is over now."
"Is it?  When you heard her talking to her soldiers, did she sound like someone who's done fighting?"

[Bryce Lynch]

8 minutes ago, Drogo said:

They didn't understand what she said in Dothraki or Valyrian.  They were making assumptions based on her tone and the crowd's response to what she was saying. 

"I can't justify what happened, I won't even try.  But the war is over now."
"Is it?  When you heard her talking to her soldiers, did she sound like someone who's done fighting?"

I doubt that was the intent of the idiot writers.  I am sure they intended that all her troops understood what she was saying.  It was just another indication of their lack of basic attention to detail, the same sort of thing that leaves water bottles and Starbucks cups in the shots, or has Jaime tell Brienne that he strangled his cousin, when he actually beat him to death.  

Maybe they found the universal translator that Qyburn had been working on in the rubble of the Red Keep. :)

Edited May 21, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[taanja]

On 5/19/2019 at 10:29 PM, Ottis said:

Her speech to her troops resembled Nazi films. Her half crazy smile as she gazed at the throne was disturbing. Her explanation to Jon that she, and no one else, knew what a better world was was terrifying.

Dany was clearly mad. I don't see how it can be viewed any other way, given what was shown. 

Her speech was in a language no one there understands! (Besides the Dothraki and Unsullied obviously) Certainly Jon or Ayra and even Tyrion to an extent -- DO NOT speak or understand! We only know what she was blathering about because TPTB helpfully supplied subtitles.
The populous of Kings landing speak the "common tongue" and if anyone was there to listen -- they wouldn't have a clue what she was saying!

In defense of Danny's passionate speech -- she was all afire from her recent killing spree. Her juices were running wild and therefore coloring her words to sound "terrifying" Once she calmed down she explained to Jon that she knows best. All is well. But Jon being Jon -- he didn't like the sound of that and hence the kiss and stab of death..

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, taanja said:

Her speech was in a language no one there understands! (Besides the Dothraki and Unsullied obviously) Certainly Jon or Ayra and even Tyrion to an extent -- DO NOT speak or understand! We only know what she was blathering about because TPTB helpfully supplied subtitles.
The populous of Kings landing speak the "common tongue" and if anyone was there to listen -- they wouldn't have a clue what she was saying!

In defense of Danny's passionate speech -- she was all afire from her recent killing spree. Her juices were running wild and therefore coloring her words to sound "terrifying" Once she calmed down she explained to Jon that she knows best. All is well. But Jon being Jon -- he didn't like the sound of that and hence the kiss and stab of death..

I don't think the Dothraki and Unsullied speak the same language.