S08.E05: The Bells

[WatchrTina]

The BEST moment in that video (the one by Trae Crowder at the bottom of the prior page) is when he refers to Euron Greyjoy as "Captain Jack Spare-me."

Edited May 16, 2019 by WatchrTina

[GraceK]

Last night he'd dreamt of Stoney Sept again. Alone, with sword in hand, he ran from house to house, smashing down doors, racing up stairs, leaping from roof to roof, as his ears rang to the sound of distant bells. Deep bronze booms and silver chiming pounded through his skull, a maddening cacophony of noise that grew ever louder until it seemed as if his head would explode.

Seventeen years had come and gone since the Battle of the Bells, yet the sound of bells ringing still tied a knot in his guts. Others might claim that the realm was lost when Prince Rhaegar fell to Robert's warhammer on the Trident, but the Battle of the Trident would never have been fought if the griffin had only slain the stag there in Stoney Sept. The bells tolled for all of us that day. For Aerys and his queen, for Elia of Dorne and her little daughter, for every true man and honest woman in the Seven Kingdoms. And for my silver prince.[4]

—thoughts of Jon Connington

I wanted the glory of slaying Robert in single combat, and I did not want the name of butcher. So Robert escaped me and cut down Rhaegar on the Trident.[3]

—thoughts of Jon Connington

So, did dumb ass David and Dan basically steal  Jon Conningtons PTSD over the Battle of the Bells and failing to save Rhaegar in Roberts Rebellion and just give that to Dany for inspiration? Is that where this came from?

from a wiki of ice and fire::

The Battle of the Bells forced King Aerys II Targaryen to take Robert's Rebellion seriously.[7] He seized the lands of Lord Jon Connington for his failure to deal with rebels, and Jon, who for years insisted he was not responsible for the defeat,[3] is said to have drank himself to death in exile.[8] The king sent Ser Jonothor Darry and Ser Barristan Selmy to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of the loyalist forces.[7]Prince Rhaegar Targaryen returned from the tower of joy and advised his father to seek assistance from Lord Tywin Lannister.[7] Aerys instead trusted in Lords Qarlton Chelstedand Rossart.[9] Having survived Stoney Sept, Robert Baratheon eventually slew Rhaegar in the Battle of the Trident and was crowned after Aerys's death in the Sack of King's Landing.[3]

Interesting irony huh? Talk about coming full circle in revenge .

Edited May 16, 2019 by GraceK

[Umbelina]

14 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

The BEST moment in that video (the one by Trae Crowder at the bottom of the prior page) is when he refers to Euron Greyjoy as "Captain Jack Spare-me."

I loved his comment about the aunt and his relatives the most.

[YaddaYadda]

48 minutes ago, GraceK said:

So, did dumb ass David and Dan basically steal  Jon Conningtons PTSD over the Battle of the Bells and failing to save Rhaegar in Roberts Rebellion and just give that to Dany for inspiration? Is that where this came from?

It wouldn't be the first time they take something out of Jon Conn's story to give to an in-show character. But at this point, I bet they don't even remember who Jon Connington is. 

[GraceK]

22 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

It wouldn't be the first time they take something out of Jon Conn's story to give to an in-show character. But at this point, I bet they don't even remember who Jon Connington is. 

It’s a very interesting parallel though if you have that knowledge. I’m amazed no one else has brought up the Battle of the Bells and the sack of Kings Landing and Roberts Rebellion when talking about this episode. Particularly Book readers. It’s like an unbelievable posthumous revenge almost. 

Edited May 16, 2019 by GraceK

[bijoux]

7 hours ago, MrWhyt said:

or they showed a northman raping someone to add to Jon's uncertainty to the righteousness of their cause.

I thought it was unnecessary to show Dothrakis raping, because I fully expect that they were. If you showed them, the throughline would be Dany goes apeshit, her men do as well. Chosing to highlight a Northerner shows that it's a shitshow all around more succinctly. 

The Seven Kingdoms could have so much trouble with the Dothraki though. They only ever got on ships to follow Dany. What are the odds of them doing it again to leave without her? 

[nodorothyparker]

14 hours ago, GraceK said:

I’m amazed no one else has brought up the Battle of the Bells and the sack of Kings Landing and Roberts Rebellion when talking about this episode. Particularly Book readers. It’s like an unbelievable posthumous revenge almost. 

I've seen more than a few people elsewhere trying to do a "well, Tywin did it too" when talking about the sack of King's Landing during the Rebellion.  But while Charles Dance is an incredible actor who did amazing work bringing Twyin to life, I don't think we were ever primed to see him as someone we were supposed to be rooting for or as any kind of hero.  He was the original recipe all-around hardass and bad dad with a backstory of wiping out entire houses, violating basic social norms to stab his opponents in the back, and emotionally crippling all of his children in the name of family power.  He had his own theme song about it, for gods' sakes.  D&D may have famously thought he wasn't a total black hat, but there really wasn't a whole lot of gray there. So really not a good comparison.

Beyond that, I've mostly reached a point where I'm just kind of numb over how badly the show has botched this final season.  It's not even much fun to talk about it anymore.

[proserpina65]

On ‎05‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 10:43 PM, Hanahope said:

do wish they explained why Dany didn’t take the surrender but torched everyone anyway.  She used to have mercy, one ally death and she’s bat shit crazy?  

She'd never done that before because the times she threatened to do so, her advisors talked her out of it.  Those advisors are now either dead (Jorah, Ser Barristan) or untrustworthy in her eyes (Tyrion).  The foundation for this has been laid since the end of Season 2, so for me it worked just fine.

On ‎05‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 10:47 PM, HeySandyStrange said:

So what was the point of having Jaime finally get together with Brienne, if he ran straight back into Cersei's arms after their failed attempt to run off in the sunset together?

I think the point was that no matter what had happened, some people don't want redemption in the end.

[Nashville]

2 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

I think the point was that no matter what had happened, some people don't want redemption in the end.

Not that they don’t want it, methinks - but rather, they can’t handle it.  

That in a nutshell was the summation of Jamie’s last words to Brienne: Brienne brought out the absolute best in Jamie, and offered him the prospect of a new, best life with her - but Jamie didn’t feel worthy to receive it.

[maystone]

On 5/15/2019 at 11:18 AM, Dame sans merci said:

Absolutely. Dany has lost a lot - Missandei, Jorah, Rhaegal - in a very short space of time, and found herself isolated. But what we got wasn't somebody seemingly tipping over the edge into rage through grief...it was somebody who apparently just decided to become a war criminal. 

There is also cold rage; the kind that banks internally until it builds to violent, sometimes deadly, reprisals. I won't speak for anyone else here, but I doubt I'm the only one who's seen that irl. It's not a switch - it's a fuse. I honestly had no trouble believing that Dany would just burn it all down for all of the reasons some of us have already pointed out about her Targaryen genes and her past first impulses. I thought EC did an impressive job of acting showing Dany's growing despair and anger.

My biggest objection to some of the takes on Dany's (and Grey Worm's) attack on the city and the civilians is that it was a war crime, and that Dany even understood that term. There were no war crimes; there was just war, and it was brutal, and the civilians (another modern thought) were at the mercy of whatever armed group came through. That was a recurring theme of GRRM's stories. According to current thought, ASOIAF was teeming with war criminals. Even in the show we can count Robert Baratheon, Tywin Lannister, Tyrion using wildfire during the Battle of Blackwater Bay, Walder Frey, all of the fucking Ramseys just to start the list. Dany would have committed multiple war crimes: crucifying the slave owners; incinerating all of the soldiers and animals in the supply train; incinerating the Tarleys for not bending the knee. I just don't see it as useful or relevant term to apply to Game of Thrones. What Dany did was wrong, hateful, immoral, if you like. It was made more horrifying by using her dragons as weapons. If everyone had dragons? I believe it would have been more like an established tactic.

[Umbelina]

14 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I've seen more than a few people elsewhere trying to do a "well, Tywin did it too" when talking about the sack of King's Landing during the Rebellion.  But while Charles Dance is an incredible actor who did amazing work bringing Twyin to life, I don't think we were ever primed to see him as someone we were supposed to be rooting for or as any kind of hero.  He was the original recipe all-around hardass and bad dad with a backstory of wiping out entire houses, violating basic social norms to stab his opponents in the back, and emotionally crippling all of his children in the name of family power.  He had his own theme song about it, for gods' sakes.  D&D may have famously thought he wasn't a total black hat, but there really wasn't a whole lot of gray there. So really not a good comparison.

Beyond that, I've mostly reached a point where I'm just kind of numb over how badly the show has botched this final season.  It's not even much fun to talk about it anymore.

I really think that after Sunday's episode we need more than episode threads we need a 'MELTDOWN AND RANT HERE!' thread about the whole series.  It may turn out to be the longest thread every on PT (or PTV)  😉

2 hours ago, Nashville said:

Not that they don’t want it, methinks - but rather, they can’t handle it.  

That in a nutshell was the summation of Jamie’s last words to Brienne: Brienne brought out the absolute best in Jamie, and offered him the prospect of a new, best life with her - but Jamie didn’t feel worthy to receive it.

Yeah, but that was a cheap trick really.  Throw the fans a "shipper bone" and have another sex scene.  Also?  That showed.

Edited May 17, 2019 by Umbelina

[GraceK]

I finally figured out my issue with Danys last minute heel turn and why it bothers me. It’s the writers explanation for it. That’s what sticks, and the lack of self awareness in show of how wrong Varys is.

David and Dan basically say after the episode that she’s a “Targaryen “ and that wins out. That she “ snaps”, that you can look back and see it. That’s bullshit. These same people defended her for years . They are dumb.

Shes not crazy. She’s ANGRY. Cop to it. Admit it. I would have been okay with this episode if they admitted that Tyrion has been giving her shit advice for two years to minimize the damage inflicted on his family. That she’s mad that she’s not getting any love from the North for her sacrifices and Sansa is being hateful for no reason. That her soft serve approach to Cersei has lost her Missendei  and Rhaegal and  that was Tyrion’s advice she listened too. OWN IT. Admit that Varys is a traitor and trying to poison her and that she’s right to be paranoid And that finally, she hates these people. After all her losses, she looks at Kings Landing, at the Red Keep, at the seat of HER FAMILY, her rightful place, and all she has suffered and lost to come home, and she feels like an outsider and she’s alone and miserable and resentful and ANGRY as hell. And that’s what motivates her in that moment. Because that makes sense. Have her be a villain then and own it. Instead we get a dumb excuse about how it’s her Targaryen genes 🙄

Edited May 17, 2019 by GraceK

[BooBear]

8 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I really think that after Sunday's episode we need more than episode threads we need a 'MELTDOWN AND RANT HERE!' thread about the whole series.  It may turn out to be the longest thread every on PT (or PTV)  😉

On the lost boards on TWOP there was a "deep bitterness" thread. I think we need one of those. 

Quote

It’s the writers explanation for it. That’s what sticks, and the lack of self awareness in show of how wrong Varys is.

That is laughable because Jon has half Targ blood and he is as calm as a simpleton. But for me the issue is that it just makes no logical sense for her too choose NOT to go after Cersi, Tyrion, Jon, Sansa, or anyone else... but rather kill thousands of innocents and by that I mean people she doesn't even know. And I refuse to accept illogical actions of a character under an "insanity" claim.  These show runners are either stupid or arrogant or both and feel the viewing audience should just sit back and take their ruining the show because... reasons. Nope. 

[YaddaYadda]

7 hours ago, GraceK said:

I finally figured out my issue with Danys last minute heel turn and why it bothers me. It’s the writers explanation for it. That’s what sticks, and the lack of self awareness in show of how wrong Varys is.

David and Dan basically say after the episode that she’s a “Targaryen “ and that wins out. That she “ snaps”, that you can look back and see it. That’s bullshit. These same people defended her for years . They are dumb.

Shes not crazy. She’s ANGRY. Cop to it. Admit it. I would have been okay with this episode if they admitted that Tyrion has been giving her shit advice for two years to minimize the damage inflicted on his family. That she’s mad that she’s not getting any love from the North for her sacrifices and Sansa is being hateful for no reason. That her soft serve approach to Cersei has lost her Missendei  and Rhaegal and  that was Tyrion’s advice she listened too. OWN IT. Admit that Varys is a traitor and trying to poison her and that she’s right to be paranoid And that finally, she hates these people. After all her losses, she looks at Kings Landing, at the Red Keep, at the seat of HER FAMILY, her rightful place, and all she has suffered and lost to come home, and she feels like an outsider and she’s alone and miserable and resentful and ANGRY as hell. And that’s what motivates her in that moment. Because that makes sense. Have her be a villain then and own it. Instead we get a dumb excuse about how it’s her Targaryen genes 🙄

Calling her mad is unearned. But remember your post about Jon Connington and the Battle of the Bells? I'm in the middle of a re-read right now (it's a really good palate cleanser) and it's Catelyn's arc in the books that they've taken as an inspiration. 

Catelyn believes Bran and Rickon died at Theon's hand. She thinks Arya is dead. Ned had died. Then her father died. She releases Jaime to get her daughters back, and in the process gets Tion Frey and Willem Lannister killed. And there are all these other things happening around her. And she tells Robb that he is all she has left and that if anything happens to him, she would go mad and there is this sort of very slow descent in her arc toward that moment when her switch gets flipped.  (Also book!Catelyn kills Jinglebells, Walder Frey's grandson, who is mentally disabled. He wears a hat with little bells on it and there's a lot of emphasis put ton those bells)

When she rises as Lady Stoneheart, Catelyn is a merciless woman. She will mow down anyone, including Pod who is a 12 year old boy and Ser Hyle Hunt who has nothing to do with Jaime or the Lannisters.

Dany is sort of like Catelyn post-resurrection. The problem is that D&D are piss poor writers who don't know how to flesh out a character arc. 

They know how to flush a character arc down the toilet, but not how to flesh it out. 

Edited May 17, 2019 by YaddaYadda

[benteen]

10 hours ago, GraceK said:

I finally figured out my issue with Danys last minute heel turn and why it bothers me. It’s the writers explanation for it. That’s what sticks, and the lack of self awareness in show of how wrong Varys is.

David and Dan basically say after the episode that she’s a “Targaryen “ and that wins out. That she “ snaps”, that you can look back and see it. That’s bullshit. These same people defended her for years . They are dumb.

Shes not crazy. She’s ANGRY. Cop to it. Admit it. I would have been okay with this episode if they admitted that Tyrion has been giving her shit advice for two years to minimize the damage inflicted on his family. That she’s mad that she’s not getting any love from the North for her sacrifices and Sansa is being hateful for no reason. That her soft serve approach to Cersei has lost her Missendei  and Rhaegal and  that was Tyrion’s advice she listened too. OWN IT. Admit that Varys is a traitor and trying to poison her and that she’s right to be paranoid And that finally, she hates these people. After all her losses, she looks at Kings Landing, at the Red Keep, at the seat of HER FAMILY, her rightful place, and all she has suffered and lost to come home, and she feels like an outsider and she’s alone and miserable and resentful and ANGRY as hell. And that’s what motivates her in that moment. Because that makes sense. Have her be a villain then and own it. Instead we get a dumb excuse about how it’s her Targaryen genes 🙄

Dany's actions are wrong, inexcusible and illogical.  But I will admit this is a much better explanation than D&D's lazy "she's a Targaryen."  Dany is not her father.  Dany is not her brother.

Edited May 17, 2019 by benteen

[paramitch]

Oh my GOD what happened, GoT? Who hurt you?

Sigh. I thought this wasn't... good. And not because of Dany's Targaryen craziness -- I've always thought Dany was over-praised (potentially) as a heroine when she has always had moments of "Mad Queen in 3... 2... 1..." to me. She loves being HAILED as a savior but has constantly screwed up actually BEING a savior (see also Quarth, Mereen, etc.).

However, like many, I would also argue in counterpoint that the characters' motivations have seemed super rushed and not always trackable this season in general (especially, for me, after 8.3, which I felt was magnificent, even worse for me given that these last two have felt tired and obligatory, like point A to point B to point C.

For instance -- here -- I feel like it would have been far more believable if the battle had been hard to track and Dany even thought she might be losing, then saw Cersei and it seemed like she was going to lose, for instance. And then lost her shit and nuked the city. I could totally see that happening.

I just felt that her heel turn here was poorly executed by the writers (but I felt that way about most of the episode). And some of the character arcs here made zero sense to me at all. I mean, I have spent how many years and books invested in Jaime's redemption and... this? Seriously? I agree with those who feel D&D have zero understanding of Jaime's character at all -- his translation from page to screen has been insulting and badly damaged his redemption path, while meanwhile Cersei still inexplicably glows with empathetic golden light and aghghghhg.

And Tyrion just seems to have lost his damn mind a year ago (still harping on saving Cersei and her stupid baby—the woman for the Nth time JUST TRIED TO KILL HIM AND JAIME LAST EPISODE. AGAIN. SOME MORE.).

And having Cersei go out by while whimpering about her stupid tumor baby in the arms of the man she just tried to kill again last episode (AND HE KNEW IT) -- the showrunners actually said "in the end she's just a girl afraid to die" and I about rolled my eyes out of my head, like, "OH MY GOD THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE MAKING A ROM-COM."

I mean, honestly, I would've preferred the Mountain just shoving Cersei off the steps on his way to the Hound -- for extra fun, everyone pausing to listen for the splat. That would at least have been poetic and entertaining.

I'm definitely having trouble with how this is shaking out. It just feels rushed to me and a little half-assed. And I hate the contrasts between how Jon is being presented vs how Dany is. It does feel sexist to me, and unfortunately it's been a given that these guys just aren't always aware of sexism or privilege in the story they're putting onscreen. It shows -- yet again -- here. I even felt similarly about Arya being dropped in basically via parachute to just be an audience stand-in -- an Arya who's suddenly warm and kind and empathetic to everyone she encounters. I appreciated her final moment with Sandor, but... yet again, there's an undertone to it that I find distasteful as well.

Although hey -- Drogon lived! I'll take it. And I know he nuked Kings Landing, but let's face it, he was just being a good boy for Mom. (KIDDING! Too soon?)

[peggy06]

On 5/17/2019 at 1:32 AM, GraceK said:

 I would have been okay with this episode if they admitted that Tyrion has been giving her shit advice for two years to minimize the damage inflicted on his family. That she’s mad that she’s not getting any love from the North for her sacrifices and Sansa is being hateful for no reason. That her soft serve approach to Cersei has lost her Missendei  and Rhaegal and  that was Tyrion’s advice she listened too. OWN IT. Admit that Varys is a traitor and trying to poison her and that she’s right to be paranoid 🙄

(Bolding mine) Oh man, do I ever agree with this. Especially the parts I bolded. Tyrion is gone all soft about his family, and it's holding him back from being an effective Hand. Varys decided to switch to another player before Dany did anything, and is a traitor. Traitors commonly get executed, especially traitors who are trying to assassinate the rruler. Yet, again and again I hear/read that Dany shouldn't have done that. That it's evidence of madness. It's evidence of ruthlessness, which is considered a strength in others characters (who are male).  

If Dany is going to commit this act, it makes more sense that she does it out of anger. Not because she's a Targaryen. Saying she snapped in the moment from seeing the Red Keep is illogical and weak. It doesn't make her actions any better, if that's what they were going for.

[lucindabelle]

Tyrion is a full on traitor. If he couldn’t keep his family feelings separate from his job- which she asked him about over and over- he should have resigned.

im alone in this but I hope he dies. He deserves it. This is a war, and his feelings for his brother and sister are irrelevant

[qtpye]

1 hour ago, lucindabelle said:

Tyrion is a full on traitor. If he couldn’t keep his family feelings separate from his job- which she asked him about over and over- he should have resigned.

im alone in this but I hope he dies. He deserves it. This is a war, and his feelings for his brother and sister are irrelevant

Yes, why does he want to save a sister who literally almost pulled off his penis when he was a baby? Truthfully, we do not even know if she was really pregnant or thought she was or just made shit up. If Dany could have just gone to Kings Landing and taken Cersei  off the thrown from the beginning, many lives could have been saved, including two dragons. Why are the show runners retconning Cersei as a woman who was misunderstood in a male dominated world. Yes, she wanted to be Jaimie but at heart she is a coward  and a bully. She is not Jaimie but Joffrey. She has always been protected by the men in her life and now Tyrion and Jaimie still want to protect her to the bitter end.

[Umbelina]

https://tv.avclub.com/game-of-thrones-brutally-asserts-that-the-game-in-quest-1834707954

The AV "expert" review, by a book reader.

This was good, and I so agree with what he says about the Jaime/Cersei arc, and the failings of this episode, because it's specific and interesting.

[leopardprint]

58 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

https://tv.avclub.com/game-of-thrones-brutally-asserts-that-the-game-in-quest-1834707954

The AV "expert" review, by a book reader.

This was good, and I so agree with what he says about the Jaime/Cersei arc, and the failings of this episode, because it's specific and interesting.

Thank you for posting that, they articulated a lot of the frustrations I had with the Jaime/Cersei and Cersei plotlines better than I could. 

From the article: 

“I’m open to the argument that their characters’ fates should be tied together, but to see this ending play out without Cersei being forced to reckon with her own actions, and with Jaime never stopping to take stock of this decision, is hard to swallow. Are we supposed to be moved by Cersei’s vulnerability after we’ve seen her so steadfast at committing the same kind of atrocities that just turned Daenerys into a villain?

If you go back to when the series debuted and said that Cersei and Jaime meet their final end reunited in the dungeons of the Red Keep as the city crumbles around them, I’d say that more or less makes sense. They’re co-dependent, and toxic, and both motivated by complex scales of justice that shift as they struggle to hold onto their senses of power and honor and family. But something about the way the story played out—the pointless swordfight with the pointless Euron, the focus on their unborn child—just felt too clean, boiling the characters down instead of building to a final cumulative moment in their respective arcs.”

I found the baby plot device incredibly frustrating and frankly cheap and sexist. Ultimately, I think we were supposed to contrast Cersei’s motivating love for her children in contrast to Dany’s motivating thirst for vengeance in this episode? I am admittedly unsympathetic to arguments about intention vs impact so maybe I’m not being fair. I think this season really failed Cersei’s character regardless of a lovely, incredible well acted final scene. 

Edited May 18, 2019 by leopardprint

[Umbelina]

I don't give a shit about Cersei's character, she's been retconned to death by this show into "sympathetic" and I've hated her since day one.

I do care about Jaime though, because he at least tried to grow away from his toxic situation with his sister.  He really was a hero, who did save KL the first time a mad Targ tried to burn it down, and he took the horrible backlash and criticism as Kingslayer for most of his life. 

In the books, I seriously doubt Cersei lives this long, at least I hope not. 

Cersei didn't love her kids!  She only cared about them as an extension of herself, and after Robert's death, as ways for her to hold on to the power she craved.  I don't think she ever loved Jaime either, except for what he could do for her.  As a child, that was show her care, attention, and affection, and closeness, including physical closeness. 

Jaime did love her, he was protective of her, and always had been.  I think he thought her love for him was real, but I never saw that in the books.  I saw her need for him.  I saw her ruin his life over and over again.  No kids or wife for Jaime!  No life for Jaime!  No be the heir of Casterly Rock for Jaime!  Hell no, Jaime had to keep her company in KL as a KG.  That is NOT love.  That is selfishness to a sociopathic level. 

Cersei cared about one thing and one thing only.  Herself.

Jaime cared about others, Cersei, his children, his brother, and later when out from under Cersei's toxic influence, about Brienne, about serious questions about "the vows we make." 

He couldn't keep his Knight's vows to protect the innocent, and let Aery's destroy the city, so he had to break his vow to protect Aery's. 

He wasn't an oathbreaker, because whichever choice he made then REQUIRED he break one oath of the other.

Anyone can die in war, so I'm not angry they killed Jaime.  I am sad he died for a selfish, vain, powermad sociopath though, and that by the end, he still couldn't break free from that life ruining addiction.

[lucindabelle]

5 hours ago, leopardprint said:

Thank you for posting that, they articulated a lot of the frustrations I had with the Jaime/Cersei and Cersei plotlines better than I could. 

From the article: 

“I’m open to the argument that their characters’ fates should be tied together, but to see this ending play out without Cersei being forced to reckon with her own actions, and with Jaime never stopping to take stock of this decision, is hard to swallow. Are we supposed to be moved by Cersei’s vulnerability after we’ve seen her so steadfast at committing the same kind of atrocities that just turned Daenerys into a villain?

If you go back to when the series debuted and said that Cersei and Jaime meet their final end reunited in the dungeons of the Red Keep as the city crumbles around them, I’d say that more or less makes sense. They’re co-dependent, and toxic, and both motivated by complex scales of justice that shift as they struggle to hold onto their senses of power and honor and family. But something about the way the story played out—the pointless swordfight with the pointless Euron, the focus on their unborn child—just felt too clean, boiling the characters down instead of building to a final cumulative moment in their respective arcs.”

I found the baby plot device incredibly frustrating and frankly cheap and sexist. Ultimately, I think we were supposed to contrast Cersei’s motivating love for her children in contrast to Dany’s motivating thirst for vengeance in this episode? I am admittedly unsympathetic to arguments about intention vs impact so maybe I’m not being fair. I think this season really failed Cersei’s character regardless of a lovely, incredible well acted final scene. 

I too found it sexist as all get out. She’s pregnant and scared and just needs to be held. Sad cellos play. That kind of woman gets a heroine ending.

meanwhile warrior dany turns crazy for no reason we can see.

in reality we’ve had seven seasons of ruthless horrible Cersei who had a dog killed, was fine with son killing whores, had the sept blown up with the son she supposedly loves’ queen inside and DOES NOT WVEN GO TO CHECK ON HIM when he’s heartbroken. We never see her cry. Yet now she’s all I want my child to live?

fuck that shit.

[WatchrTina]

Random thought of the morning . . . did you notice that the featured King's Landing resident -- the one with the young daughter that Arya tried (and failed) to save --had a Cersei haircut?  It was a nice throw-back to an earlier season when we saw that Cersei's female servants cut their hair short after Cersei came back from her imprisonment.  Now we see that the fashion had spread to the local residents as well.  So while they may have secretly hated her, they were not above sucking up to her by emulating her hairstyle.

[dreamcatcher]

On 5/15/2019 at 2:24 AM, nodorothyparker said:

Yeah, that's sort of what I was getting at.  You just managed to say it a lot more succinctly.  Tyrion has been completely obsessed with the idea of Cersei's fetus mattering in all of this.

Which I don’t understand. I’m not even going to go into the fact that book!tyrion would never help Cersei at this point of the story. Show!tyrion actually told her that he wants to make her suffer (in a more eloquent way). He knows that she was going to have him killed out of spite. Then she tried to kill him once more through Bronn just a few days (or weeks?) before this episode. And yet he suddenly cares about her baby and the continuation of her line? Why?

On 5/15/2019 at 8:37 AM, GraceK said:

I liked the fact that it wasn’t the Dothraki and unsullied we saw raping and pillaging, but the Northern soldiers. They were just as eager to kill and revel in bloodshed. They hate the Lannister’s and Kings Landing and they had no problem giving into the bloodthirst either. I think it’s very telling that everyone’s focusing on Dany going apeshit but no ones commenting on the fact that it was pretty much only Tyrion and Jon with the “ oh no” faces. The northern army loved this shit, and Jon had to kill his own man to prevent rape.  Oh but the North is so much better than these foreign invaders!!😂🤣😂

I wish we could expand on this more honestly. The north absolutely hates the Lannister and KL; they’ve lost the most because of them. We didn’t see anyone else second guessing Dany because they weren’t. For once they had the Queen on their side and they were able to get revenge on those who had power over them for centuries and destroyed them. Which is why I think that the most realistic ending would be all the kingdoms breaking up, or at the very least get a northern and southern kingdom.

On 5/15/2019 at 5:09 PM, YaddaYadda said:

Yes, it is evidence of mercy and evidence that she didn't hold what Tywin did to part of her family against Tyrion. 

In a lot of ways, the same courtesy was not extended to her (and I'm not necessarily talking about Tyrion here). A lot of people held Aerys's actions against her.

Exactly. And even though her family was in westeros for centuries and that she was born there and only had to flee when the lannisters and baratheons slaughtered her whole family, she is a “foreign queen”? And she’s not allowed to get revenge for what happened to her family and the life she lost because of them, because the past is in the past. And yet, people still bring her father into the discussion.

On 5/15/2019 at 7:23 PM, andipandi said:

there are lots of good reasons dany could have had for torching KL. Drogon gets hit by arrows, or townspeople throwing pitchforks, or cersei fake-surrendering (ring the bells, then attack anyway). I was expecting a fake surrender.

Not sold on the crazy dany, unless somehow Varys was feeding her "go suddenly murderous" juice.

I do think that the SL in the books would be more about her thinking this is fake and Cersei would attack her the moment she let her guard down, specifically because Tyrion urged her to call off the attack and she didn’t trust him anymore. I thought that’s what they were going for on the show as well...

On 5/17/2019 at 9:32 AM, GraceK said:

I finally figured out my issue with Danys last minute heel turn and why it bothers me. It’s the writers explanation for it. That’s what sticks, and the lack of self awareness in show of how wrong Varys is.

David and Dan basically say after the episode that she’s a “Targaryen “ and that wins out. That she “ snaps”, that you can look back and see it. That’s bullshit. These same people defended her for years . They are dumb.

Shes not crazy. She’s ANGRY. Cop to it. Admit it. I would have been okay with this episode if they admitted that Tyrion has been giving her shit advice for two years to minimize the damage inflicted on his family. That she’s mad that she’s not getting any love from the North for her sacrifices and Sansa is being hateful for no reason. That her soft serve approach to Cersei has lost her Missendei  and Rhaegal and  that was Tyrion’s advice she listened too. OWN IT. Admit that Varys is a traitor and trying to poison her and that she’s right to be paranoid And that finally, she hates these people. After all her losses, she looks at Kings Landing, at the Red Keep, at the seat of HER FAMILY, her rightful place, and all she has suffered and lost to come home, and she feels like an outsider and she’s alone and miserable and resentful and ANGRY as hell. And that’s what motivates her in that moment. Because that makes sense. Have her be a villain then and own it. Instead we get a dumb excuse about how it’s her Targaryen genes 🙄

Can you write the last book? This is amazing and explains everything. I don’t like that Rhaegar was fabulous, Viserys was a weirdo but definitely not mad, Jon is broody but amazing otherwise and Dany is the one who ended up mad out of all the targs. Really? And if we get this justification we will at least understand her point of view. I do think that it’s strange no one bat an eye when Robert killed Rhaegar who was so popular just because his father was mad. They were fine with him wiping out the targs. They were fine with Lannisters making the realm suffer. They were fine with Cersei blowing up the Sept using a fire that can’t be put out (compared to dragon fire) and then sitting her ass on the throne while she had absolutely no claim to it. And yet they draw a hard line on the foreign queen? Who wouldn’t have been a foreignerer in the first place had they not destroyed her family? I’m so with her on this and I’m still horrified by her actions.

20 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

Tyrion is a full on traitor. If he couldn’t keep his family feelings separate from his job- which she asked him about over and over- he should have resigned.

im alone in this but I hope he dies. He deserves it. This is a war, and his feelings for his brother and sister are irrelevant

I definitely agree with you. I hate that he is supposed to be the best, when he is a kinslayer (yes we cheered him on but that’s another story), who pledged his loyalty to Dany and then betrayed her and became a traitor. He gave her bad advice time and time again and mostly to help his family and get revenge when it mattered to him (e.g taking casterly rock which was pointless). And yet he is still supposed to be the best and gets to judge Dany who was right all along. At least they should acknowledge this on the show. 

[izabella]

I think he was so hot to take Casterly Rock because he wanted his family seat to stay in the family, maybe as his own.

Edited May 19, 2019 by izabella

[bijoux]

30 minutes ago, dreamcatcher said:

Which I don’t understand. I’m not even going to go into the fact that book!tyrion would never help Cersei at this point of the story. Show!tyrion actually told her that he wants to make her suffer (in a more eloquent way). He knows that she was going to have him killed out of spite. Then she tried to kill him once more through Bronn just a few days (or weeks?) before this episode. And yet he suddenly cares about her baby and the continuation of her line? Why?

The only way I can make heads or tails of this is that Tyrion is and has always been Tywin writ small. Tywin's greatest concern was the family line and maybe Tyrion just accepted and internalized what his abuser was preaching. I have nothing beyond that. 

[dreamcatcher]

8 minutes ago, izabella said:

I think he was so hot to take Casterly Rock because he wanted his family seat to stay in the family, maybe as his own.

But wouldn’t Queen Dany give him the castle? Not that there was ever a way Dany would become Queen with jamie and cersei still alive, so Tyrion inheriting the castle is pretty much a given.

[izabella]

2 minutes ago, dreamcatcher said:

But wouldn’t Queen Dany give him the castle? Not that there was ever a way Dany would become Queen with jamie and cersei still alive, so Tyrion inheriting the castle is pretty much a given.

Dany likely would give it to him, but it could have ended up as rubble by dragon instead just as easily.

[jeansheridan]

On 5/15/2019 at 2:35 PM, MrWhyt said:

or they showed a northman raping someone to add to Jon's uncertainty to the righteousness of their cause

In season 3 Brienne kills three Northern soldiers for killing the serving women. The show has been fairly consistent about the collateral damage of war and how no side is purely good (with the exception of the living versus the Night King's army). 

[ulkis]

8 hours ago, dreamcatcher said:

Viserys was a weirdo but definitely not mad

He seemed pretty crazy to me.

[John Potts]

I'm sorry - Varys is plotting treason and he isn't even sure it's justified!? OK, he did turn out to be right in the end that she was burn happy, but maybe if she wasn't betrayed by her own people, she wouldn't see enemies everywhere that needed burning!

There's a difference between "being allowed to talk to the prisoner" and "being allowed to free the prisoner". But Jamie apparently made it out just fine! I'd love to know how that went down, but apparently they couldn't be bothered to show that.

I'm sure there's a good reason why the Golden Company chose to fight in the open rather than  behind the city walls. I guess history was wrong about how they were effective at keeping enemy armies out?

I'm fine with the Mountain being indestructible. But WTF were his and the Hound's swords made of that they could slam them into the walls? I guess the Mountain's could have been Valerian steel, but the Hound just picked his up in the street!

Euron - what an old romantic, offering to take Jamie's head back to Cersei

I wish Arya had died in the crush - not because I dislike her (or Maisie Williams) but becuase it would have stressed how anyone could die. And thematically it works because we were repeatedly told "The Lone Wolf dies, the pack survives." And Arya had left her pack behind.

As for Danny. I don't need her to be a great, noble Queen. But it could have been a case of how "Power corrupts" or "New Boss - Same as the Old Boss". Either of which (IMO) would be an improvement over what we got with her just snapping. Or we could have had the Danny accidentally setting off the wildfire stored around the city and being blamed for burning everything down. But let's go with the most insane reason!

On ‎5‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 3:33 AM, Scarlett45 said:

The best part was Sandor telling Arya to leave. I’m just shaking my head. 

I can just imagine the conversation. "I know we travelled a thousand miles together and have made it inside the Red Keep, but it's only now struck me - revenge is bad!"

On ‎5‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 4:10 AM, rmontro said:

Didn't need the other two dragons?  She didn't even need an army.  If she would have attacked a few seasons ago, solo, there wouldn't even have been the hyped up scorpions for her to dodge.  She could have burned the place to the ground as soon as Drogon was mature enough.

Which I've been saying ever since the end of Season 6 - if she'd stormed the Red Keep as soon as she'd landed, the (human) war would have been over in a couple of days, the Tyrell and Dornish armies would still be in tact and Danny would still have all three dragons to face the Night King. If the message of ASoIaF is "War is Bad" then surely ending war as quickly as possible should be the answer?

On ‎5‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 5:17 PM, Tryangle said:

How weird was it that they introduced that Strickland fella as the head of the Golden Company, he's pretty much a non-entity for several episodes, and in his 'major moment', turns into a craven and is unceremoniously dispatched.

Did he even have a line?

On ‎5‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 5:37 PM, Lamima said:

Dany said 'screw it' and went with the evil (as did Grey Worm).

Grey Worm I can understand. He'd already said, "You [Missendei] are my weakness" - and he'd just witnessed her execution. So for him to snap made sense.

On ‎5‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 8:39 PM, Lamima said:

What's the point of the 3 eyed raven....why didn't he foresee any of the KL stuff?

Maybe he did and considers the people of Kings Landing are a worthwhile sacrifice? Particularly if it results in

Spoiler

the Three Eyed Raven on the Throne

 

[rmontro]

3 hours ago, John Potts said:

I'm sorry - Varys is plotting treason and he isn't even sure it's justified!? OK, he did turn out to be right in the end that she was burn happy, but maybe if she wasn't betrayed by her own people, she wouldn't see enemies everywhere that needed burning!

Yeah, he saw she wasn't happy with her reception at Winterfell, and his response was to help push her over the edge.  I guess treason is just what Varys does though.

3 hours ago, John Potts said:

Which I've been saying ever since the end of Season 6 - if she'd stormed the Red Keep as soon as she'd landed, the (human) war would have been over in a couple of days, the Tyrell and Dornish armies would still be in tact and Danny would still have all three dragons to face the Night King. If the message of ASoIaF is "War is Bad" then surely ending war as quickly as possible should be the answer?

No doubt the show would have portrayed Dany as a monster if she had done that.  They seem proud of the "moral ambiguity" of the characters, but then want you to be morally indignant at who they want, just as a convenient device to tell the story. 

[Brn2bwild]

An interesting video (Part One of a series) was posted last week, stating that D&D made last-minute changes to the episode to place more blame on Dany.  The script for this episode lodged with the WGA states that when Dany fired Drogon at the people below, she was looking for Lannister soldiers, and that wildfire accidentally set off was what caused most of the damage.  If so, that would jive with plausible-sounding spoilers that we received prior to this episode.  Dany doesn't come across as blameless, but also doesn't come across as pure evil.

[nikma]

Wishful thinking. Joanna Robinson already confirmed this is fake and there is no way to change something like that in post production.

 

Also Dragon Demands is not really a stable guy. He is obsessed with David Benioff.

[rmontro]

On 7/4/2020 at 6:58 PM, Brn2bwild said:

An interesting video (Part One of a series) was posted last week, stating that D&D made last-minute changes to the episode to place more blame on Dany.  The script for this episode lodged with the WGA states that when Dany fired Drogon at the people below, she was looking for Lannister soldiers, and that wildfire accidentally set off was what caused most of the damage.  If so, that would jive with plausible-sounding spoilers that we received prior to this episode.  Dany doesn't come across as blameless, but also doesn't come across as pure evil.

Why the heck didn't they go with that?  It would have been much more palatable.  I never expected Dany to have a happy ending, but it wouldn't have been such a sudden and violent character turn.  

This guy came up with how he thought it should have ended, he had a similar idea.  He had Dany on Drogon chasing a fleeing Cersei, finally incinerating her.  But in her wrath she neglected to see all the damage she was doing, which was made worse because of all the wildfire caches.  Seeing what she had done, she killed herself by throwing herself from Drogon while high in the air.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEtn98hMEz4 

[Anela]

I knew what happened, but didn’t expect it mid-season.  
I wanted Arya to kill Cersei and Jaime.  I’m glad they remembered that Jaime was a monster.  This whole thing started with him pushing a little boy to what was supposed to be his death.  
Jon said that he wasn’t a Stark, but he is partly.  His MOTHER was a Stark.  Stark royalty.  

That dragon flying overhead, was terrifying.  They did a good job showing the horror that she was inflicting on those poor people.  

[Anela]

Oh I didn’t know there were only six episodes.