S08.E04: The Last of the Starks

[benteen]

Quote

Renly was the best of them. 

Book Renly was a piece of garbage.  Show Renly...I don't think he was strong enough. 

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So I shouldn't "blame" D&D for taking the bullet train route because they first announced they were taking the bullet train route?

I've had a lot of criticisms with D&D but streamlining GRRM's excess is not one of them.  George has no discipline whatsoever as a writer and has allowed the books to become an endless, bloating mess.  D&D, the cast and the crew of the show shouldn't be held hostage to an author who clearly is never going to finish the book series (and has clearly lost interest in it) that the show was based on.

Edited May 7, 2019 by benteen

[jeansheridan]

1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

Until I'm given evidence otherwise, I'll continue to believe he thinks he's going on what's likely to be a suicide mission to put down the monster he's enabled all these years and had a hand in making because with news that Danerys has just suffered a fairly serious setback with the death of the second dragon and loss of part of her fleet, it's no longer such a given that the combined Stargaryen forces are going to be able to take care of it.  If Cersei wins and continues her reign of terror, none of them including people he loves like Brienne or Tyrion or anyone else will ever be safe.  

It's weird but I almost forgot how the Bronn scene might hurt Jaime more than Tyrion. Tyrion is used to negotiating for his life almost all the time. After Tyrion gets punched Jaime leaps to his feet to protect him. It is automatic behavior for him. But Jaime may have not factored in Cercei's continued anger. She has never stayed angry at Jaime before. She has always welcomed him back. But would she let him stay happy and alive deep in the North? Not a chance. And she would take out Brienne. Hell Jaime made Brienne leave King's Landing partially to protect her. 

I think Jaime is torn but like Tyrion he hopes to keep Cercei alive but without power. In the last book he is pretty done with Cercei emotionally. When she asks for his help he ignores her note to leave with Brienne (and walks into a trap). I think Show Jaime is softer and more ambivalent. Plus she is pregnant which matters to him. 

As usual this whole ep is about men freaking out about female power again. In Cercei's case they are right to fear her. But not in Dany's case. I hope she uses her justifiable anger with precision and brutality. 

I must say though, Tywin doesn't seem to have a good rep after he sacked King's Landing. Nobody seemed to admire him for that choice. And he hid his role in the Red Wedding except the bloody Freys kept boasting about it.

Edited May 7, 2019 by jeansheridan

[bijoux]

1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

I loved that too.  And as gross as it was for Tyrion to ask Brienne if she was a virgin in front of the group like that when they were all fairly relaxed and having a good time and it was one of the few times we've seen her with her defenses down around other people, I also loved his subtle wingman move of distracting Tormund with more wine after Jaime essentially cockblocked him to follow Brienne out.

I didn't take it as distraction, more commiseration at striking out. Tough luck, wildling, here, get wasted. 

Speaking of all of this, Jaime really has no game. Even Brienne was looking at him like, boys are so weird, when he was being all twitchy. 

No wonder only his psycho twin would sleep with him. 

[Portia4844]

I've never thought the outcome would be who is the best leader to sit on the throne.  It seemed it was about who will be the one to play the game that allows them to get or keep the throne.  

Dany has people counseling her that understand the game and understand the North and the culture of Westeros.  People who also care about the powerless who are at the mercy of whoever is on the throne.  Unfortunately, the writers decided to dumb down Dany, Tyrion, Varys, and Jon and turn Cersei into someone smarter than all of them.  And to turn Sansa into a version of LF and Cersei without making her as evil/nasty, just passive aggressive and throwing out one-liners in an attempt to show us she's able to play the game. But in the end, she's still the girl who couldn't stop from running to a Lannister to tell Jon's secret just as she told on Ned because she thought it was useful information to get what she wanted.

I have no problem with D&D condensing the books.  I have a problem with the stupidity of their writing.  Dany forgot about the Iron Fleet?  Really?  That's what they went with?  Of course it is.  She had no one her team that might not not forgotten?  Of course she didn't because now they're all stupid as well.  Apparently they became too distracted by Sansa spilling the beans and therefore had to spend their time discussing who is the better person to sit on the throne. 

Instead of anything clever, they stripped Dany down to becoming broken from grief and the inability of those surrounding her to come up with a plan where she didn't have to lose her dragons and the majority of her army.  It isn't about whether Dany is the best one to sit on the throne.  It's about who isn't surrounded by imbeciles and who can play the game better than anyone else. 

[Nashville]

16 hours ago, rmontro said:

Jon is as much Stark as he was before.  He was and is half Stark.

He's also half Targaryen.  Does that mean he's going to go mad?

No - but he might get extremely irritable, so watch out.  😆

[spaceghostess]

2 hours ago, benteen said:

Book Renly was a piece of garbage.  Show Renly...I don't think he was strong enough. 

I've had a lot of criticisms with D&D but streamlining GRRM's excess is not one of them.  George has no discipline whatsoever as a writer and has allowed the books to become an endless, bloating mess.  D&D, the cast and the crew of the show shouldn't be held hostage to an author who clearly is never going to finish the book series (and has clearly lost interest in it) that the show was based on.

Oh, I'm not a GRRM stan (I did enjoy the books, however) and absolutely agree that committing to television every minute thing he set to paper would have been next to impossible without going nuts and overbudget and losing viewers. I was fine with much of what D&D did in terms of streamlining and condensing (although I take exception to some of the things they did [or didn't] do with characters like Jamie and Jon). I've been really impressed over the years at how they've steered the show. Based on that, I had high expectations for how they'd end it. There are plenty of fans who love and see a throughline for what I perceive to be an about-face WRT Dany's character. I place more blame for this last season on D&D than on GRRM because they've been off his script for a long time, yet they also, apparently, have also known where he intends it to go, on some level at least, for a long time. For me, D&D's stating publicly that they're hurtling to the finish line doesn't absolve them from responsibility for mistakes they make along the way.

And by "mistakes," I don't necessarily mean taking Dany down what looks to be the "Mad Queen" path; I mean not building a strong enough case that she was going that way all along.

Edited May 7, 2019 by spaceghostess
and another thing . . .

[GrailKing]

6 hours ago, MadMouse said:

LOL

The food that the Lannisters stole from the Reach you mean? After they had butchered hundreds or thousands of men in Highgarden and wiped the whole Tyrell family out. 

So she's wrong to use her dragons? Is Jon wrong to use a direwolf or a sword? Maybe instead of fighting they can have a dance fight. She would be stupid not to use dragons in battle or to keep people in check. 

Guess who wishes he had a dragon or three to fight the wildlings?? Wonder what he would use dragons for there? Free rides? "We should have twenty trebuchets, not two, and they should be mounted on sledges and turntables so we could move them. It was a futile thought. He might as well wish for another thousand men, and maybe a dragon or three."

Sansa isn't power hungry? The woman whose calling for Independence during the apocalypse, Or the woman who didn't inform her brother that the Knights of the Vale might be coming. How many Northerns and Wildlings died for that? Ned Stark was her father but Littlefinger was her daddy and made her his creature.

Whos the better alternative? Jon. The man who was killed by his own men? Or the man who couldn't rally any Northern Houses to his cause? Or the man whose own men actively plotted against him the minute he left Winterfell? He doesn't want it and I know people will bring up that tired trope of the best leader is one who doesn't seek power. Guess who didn't want to be King? Was a charismatic leader and war hero? Robert Baratheon and wasn't his rule a shining example for everyone.

She was foolish to burn the food when she out numbered them almost 3-1, it was one of her primary reasons going there, instead she burned the food. never said it was wrong to use drogon, but yeah she was stupid in not getting the food.

Prove Sansa knew they were coming ?

I've always said she could had told Jon she sent the Raven, but it wouldn't changed the result, Jon would still have gone out to save Rickon, and if Sansa was there and told him don't would you curse her for that pragmatic move ?

He couldn't rally because Robb screwed up royally and the northerners wouldn't fight with Wildlings, and Jon was right to save them and the NW leaders were assholes, so yeah he is the better man.

Sansa asked a pertinent question what about US after the war, Dani just assumes she can demand them to follow her before she does anything, yeah she thinking of her house and people's future.

Sansa knows honor isn't going to help in everything, ( doesn't in real wars also ) hard lessons learned. LF ain't her daddy, nor Cersei her mommy and despite some of the shit she went through. Dani went through some shit ( like Sansa ) and she shows those same tendencies like Cersei. Dani has no power without those dragons, and she can't prove she's worthy while having them. She just loves to use them to fear the people she says she wants to rule. GW and Missandei already were talking of leaving when done, he recognized there was no future there for them, not just because Westeros don't like foreigners but Dani is more focused on a chair.

Dani has no rightful claim, her family invaded took the lands, her family made errors lost the land, so she has to repeat the cycle and people are pushing back and her only way to deal with it is to use WMD to strike fear into them. Not a good method, But have food to feed the poor well she could had made headway that way.

I'm neutral on her but leaning not the right person.

and there is never 1 right person in any one leader. 

[GrailKing]

6 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Bullshit Sansa's big time self-centered. Only person thinking about others on the Stark side is Jon.  The only reason that she don't like Dany is cuz Dany won't do what no other ruler will do and that's grant North their independence. Its why she continues throwing these hissy fits which serve nobody. 

The only reason she wants Jon to rule is not because she fears dany, it's because she thinks that Jon will grant them independence apparently forgetting that Jon has made more unilateral decisions for the North then Dany has ever even thought about doing.

Big time self center are Dani and Cersei period.

Sansa's aware of the trouble from the north, and if she saw them prior to the battle she fear them like Jon, but she's also right about the danger from Cersei, and Jon is refusing to at least put a plan in place for his rear.

She's not throwing hissy fits, she sees two problems and he's concentrating on one.

Nothing wrong in wanting someone of your family in power, where it could do the most good, she has every right to protect her lands, peoples lands, peoples heritage , customs and religion.

[benteen]

26 minutes ago, spaceghostess said:

Oh, I'm not a GRRM stan (I did enjoy the books, however) and absolutely agree that committing to television every minute thing he set to paper would have been next to impossible without going nuts and overbudget and losing viewers. I was fine with much of what D&D did in terms of streamlining and condensing (although I take exception to some of the things they did [or didn't] do with characters like Jamie and Jon). I've been really impressed over the years at how they've steered the show. Based on that, I had high expectations for how they'd end it. There are plenty of fans who love and see a throughline for what I perceive to be an about-face WRT Dany's character. I place more blame for this last season on D&D than on GRRM because they've been off his script for a long time, yet they also, apparently, have also known where he intends it to go, on some level at least, for a long time. D&D's stating publicly that they're hurtling to the finish line doesn't absolve them from mistakes they make along the way.

I definitely have issues with D&D's decision making as well, resolving the Battle against the White Walkers in a way that made the whole series long threat seems like a waste and the decision to have Arya kill the Night King.  I do think D&D's decision-making has been spotty as best and it's become more apparent this season.

[RobertDeSneero]

16 hours ago, rmontro said:

It's so annoying because they spent the first 6-7 seasons getting us invested into her story, and having her stand up for the weak and powerless, now at the last minute they want to turn her super villain or something.  What I really don't like is that I feel like the SHOW is telling me now that I'm not supposed to root for her.  What's the point of getting me on her side all this time, only to now tell me to think "Oh, that Daenerys, she really was a piece of sh!t all along, wasn't she?". 

The books and show have tended to build up something in the beginning of a trope, then pull the rug out from under thereafter/viewer.  Ned and Robb Stark were built up as heroes, then shockingly killed off.  The greatest threat ever doesn't end the game of thrones.  This isn't supposed to end with a just ruler taking the throne and ruling wisely.  After defeating the Night King and, presumably, Cersei, politics remains and is still messy.

The point of getting you on her side is so they can pull the rug out from under you again and give you an ending that you weren't expecting.  I thought it would have been funny if the books had built her up as a conquering hero only for her invasion to fail and her getting killed shortly after making it to Westeros.

[nodorothyparker]

3 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

It's weird but I almost forgot how the Bronn scene might hurt Jaime more than Tyrion. Tyrion is used to negotiating for his life almost all the time. After Tyrion gets punched Jaime leaps to his feet to protect him. It is automatic behavior for him. But Jaime may have not factored in Cercei's continued anger. She has never stayed angry at Jaime before. She has always welcomed him back. But would she let him stay happy and alive deep in the North? Not a chance. And she would take out Brienne. Hell Jaime made Brienne leave King's Landing partially to protect her. 

I think Jaime is torn but like Tyrion he hopes to keep Cercei alive but without power. In the last book he is pretty done with Cercei emotionally. When she asks for his help he ignores her note to leave with Brienne (and walks into a trap). I think Show Jaime is softer and more ambivalent. Plus she is pregnant which matters to him. 

Ambivalent is probably the best descriptor for what we've been shown since the "no one walks away from me" scene at the end of last season.  Cersei had grown increasingly emotionally and verbally abusive toward him over the past several seasons and after she barely backed down on her threat to have the Mountain kill him, he did seem just done.  Do what you're going to do, I'm out.  It hews pretty close to his last book chapter where he wonders briefly if she's been executed since that last letter he burned and then shrugs it off because it's not like he realistically could have done anything about it even if he had been so inclined.  Show Jaime didn't react much to the news that Cersei had put a hit out on both of them but you're probably right that that has to be factoring into his thinking.  So far, while there's been talk and threats among the siblings at various points about killing each other none of them have been able to pull the proverbial trigger when face to face.  I mean, she let Tyrion walk right up to the battlements to speak to her this last episode when she very easily could have ended it right there.

It's interesting to me that Tyrion seems far more concerned than Jaime about Cersei's pregnancy, which I'm at best only half convinced is even real and not another leash to try to control Jaime, Tyrion, and now Euron.  She dropped the news on Jaime right after the Field of Fire 2.0 when he was rightly acknowledging how outgunned they were and wavering on the idea of waging a losing fight to the death.  She "let" Tyrion discover it during the Dragon Pit meetup to convince him that she ever had any intention of negotiating in good faith with the added bonus of making him feel justified in not being able to commit to an all-out war that was likely to end in his siblings' deaths.  And now she's conveniently announcing to Euron when the Stargaryen forces are finally on the move again so he'll be that much more committed to fighting for his own hope of  dynasty.  Tyrion keeps acting (and maybe it is only an act) like he still believes his much earlier adage about her that her love for her children is a redeeming quality that might still make any difference in the end, whereas Jaime was fairly fatalistic about it from the start only wondering who she intended to name as daddy of record this time.  We've been given precious little to go on beyond that.

Can you tell Lannister psychology really fascinates me?

[sacrebleu]

Quote

Dany forgot about the Iron Fleet?  Really?  That's what they went with?  Of course it is.  She had no one her team that might not not forgotten?  Of course she didn't because now they're all stupid as well. 

This is what infuriated me. The fact that Dany/Jon have to be incompetent in order for Euron's plan to succeed. They don't have crows nests on their boats? and lookouts? while traveling during a period of war? When they know Cersei's got Euron's navy? 

It just feels like D&D are moving chess pieces around with very little thought to how it tracks with the past 7 years of storytelling. Jon's a leader until he isnt, Dany's destined to lead until she isn't. Sansa is shrewd until she isn't. Tyrion/Varys are clever until they aren't.  Jamie's done with Cersei until he isn't.  

[Affogato]

2 hours ago, Nashville said:

No - but he might get extremely irritable, so watch out.  😆

You won’t like him when he’s pissy. 

[Andromeda]

9 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

If the Romans had them shouldn't the medieval and Renaissance ships have them? Just wondering. 

It does seem like Dany's dragons are best in night time and sneak attacks. She can fly at night. 

We lost a lot of knowledge because of the fall of the Roman Empire by barbarians, and the subsequent Dark Ages. I wonder how advanced we'd be today if that 500- to 1,000-year backward period hadn't occurred.

[jeansheridan]

9 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

We lost a lot of knowledge because of the fall of the Roman Empire by barbarians, and the subsequent Dark Ages. I wonder how advanced we'd be today if that 500- to 1,000-year backward period hadn't occurred.

The good news is Asia and the Arabian peninsula continued to advance. Surely the Persian Empire held on to that technology? But my military history is crap so I will shut up now :). 

I still think a stealth attack at night is her best choice. Once the smoke rises it would be harder to shoot at the dragon. 

I kind of wish Dany had a giant or two. Just to eff with Cercei.

[Portia4844]

Jaime and Tyrion both discover Cersei lied and deceived them all about sending troops to fight the NK.  But, they're both convinced she told the truth about being pregnant which then becomes the way Tyrion tries to get her to submit to Dany replacing her as Queen.  Nothing about Cersei, regardless of how many children she had still living at any point, suggested she'd just go off to spend the rest of her life mothering in peace.  

Not only does Tyrion attempt to convince her to step down, he does it with himself, Dany, and a handful of troops standing within range of Cersei's army and weapons that could have killed all of them.   The very weapons that took down one of the dragons but Dany and Tyrion stand there like she's not capable of destroying them and willing to just have a little chit-chat.  Killing Missandei and dropping her body in front of him is what convinces him that she's not open to negotiating.  All the ballistas surrounding her weren't a clue either.  

It's baffling why Tyrion thought he could reason with her and why she just let them all walk away when she had the ability to kill them and take out the last dragon with the same weapon used on the last one. 

[Andromeda]

36 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

The good news is Asia and the Arabian peninsula continued to advance. Surely the Persian Empire held on to that technology? But my military history is crap so I will shut up now :). 

I still think a stealth attack at night is her best choice. Once the smoke rises it would be harder to shoot at the dragon. 

I kind of wish Dany had a giant or two. Just to eff with Cercei.

Yeah, I almost added that, about Asia and Arabia, but getting a little off topic...

Or elephants. Wouldn't that frost Cersei's cake!

[blixie]

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so they can pull the rug out from under you again 

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 an ending that you weren't expecting

When you engage in trope inversion again and again and again and again than it's really not unexpected that you would "invert" the trope to end things. What would be 'unexpected" is to hew back toward conventional heroism, where the good guy don't make an 11th hour heel turn and instead are actually they heroes Dany/Jon have appeared to be all along. 

[Bryce Lynch]

8 minutes ago, blixie said:

When you engage in trope inversion again and again and again and again than it's really not unexpected that you would "invert" the trope to end things. What would be 'unexpected" is to hew back toward conventional heroism, where the good guy don't make an 11th hour heel turn and instead are actually they heroes Dany/Jon have appeared to be all along. 

"They'll be expecting the unexpected, so we will give them the unexpected by giving them the expected."  

[Bryce Lynch]

35 minutes ago, Portia4844 said:

Jaime and Tyrion both discover Cersei lied and deceived them all about sending troops to fight the NK.  But, they're both convinced she told the truth about being pregnant which then becomes the way Tyrion tries to get her to submit to Dany replacing her as Queen.  Nothing about Cersei, regardless of how many children she had still living at any point, suggested she'd just go off to spend the rest of her life mothering in peace.  

Not only does Tyrion attempt to convince her to step down, he does it with himself, Dany, and a handful of troops standing within range of Cersei's army and weapons that could have killed all of them.   The very weapons that took down one of the dragons but Dany and Tyrion stand there like she's not capable of destroying them and willing to just have a little chit-chat.  Killing Missandei and dropping her body in front of him is what convinces him that she's not open to negotiating.  All the ballistas surrounding her weren't a clue either.  

It's baffling why Tyrion thought he could reason with her and why she just let them all walk away when she had the ability to kill them and take out the last dragon with the same weapon used on the last one. 

Some people think that Tyrion was so dumb, that it must be a strategy.  It could be he was trying say, "The results are in, Euron, you are NOT the father!" to create division among him and Cersei.

I hope Tyrion hasn't really become as stupid as he looks.  Maybe it was all the time in the brothels that made him so smart, not all the books. 

[Portia4844]

Quote

Some people think that Tyrion was so dumb, that it must be a strategy.  It could be he was trying say, "The results are in, Euron, you are NOT the father!" to create division among him and Cersei.

I hope Tyrion hasn't really become as stupid as he looks.  Maybe it was all the time in the brothels that made him so smart, not all the books. 

Tyrion did tell Dany that the clever person makes peace with their enemies so I'd love it if that's what he was attempting to do.  He has always been one of the most interesting characters to me and I root for him to use all that he's learned to play the game in a winning way.    

[Solace247]

4 hours ago, sacrebleu said:

This is what infuriated me. The fact that Dany/Jon have to be incompetent in order for Euron's plan to succeed. They don't have crows nests on their boats? and lookouts? while traveling during a period of war? When they know Cersei's got Euron's navy? 

It just feels like D&D are moving chess pieces around with very little thought to how it tracks with the past 7 years of storytelling. Jon's a leader until he isnt, Dany's destined to lead until she isn't. Sansa is shrewd until she isn't. Tyrion/Varys are clever until they aren't.  Jamie's done with Cersei until he isn't.  

This is how I felt all last season—if you think about it, Cersei has been propped up for a season and a half with contrivance after contrivance. I honestly feel like she’s lasted this long out of affinity for the actress and the realization that they cut out all the fAegon plot. Book Cersei is dumb, but show Cersei...GENIUS. Euron? No wonder he was feared on the seas, his 1000 strong fleet has Transporter technology and Romulan-level cloaking  abilities. I can’t take this writing seriously anymore, all the characters have been reduced to fast-travel, one-dimensional, task-oriented idiots. 

[jeansheridan]

4 hours ago, Portia4844 said:

It's baffling why Tyrion thought he could reason with her and why she just let them all walk away when she had the ability to kill them and take out the last dragon with the same weapon used on the last one. 

Somebody mentioned breaking a parlay is just too extreme for someone who wishes to be a respected ruler. Tywin hid his role in the Red Wedding but even that was a social event and not a political meeting. Maybe Dany broke parlay back in Mereen when Greyworm killed those two slavetraders. 

But Cercei could have killed Tyrion for "storming the castle".

[WatchrTina]

I'm doing a re-watch on the version I recorded (yup, I saw the coffee cup) and I was interested to note the following exchange:

Sansa:  "She could have made you happy . . . for a little while.

Sandor:  "There's only one thing that could make me happy.

Sansa:  "And what's that?"

Sandor:  "That's my fucking business."

So . . . what do we think would make Sandor happy?  Only one thing . . . killing his sadistic zombie brother.  CleganeBowl Confirmed!!!!

Okay, here's another thing I just noticed.  When Gendry proposes, Arya is kind.  She kisses him but then lets him know she doesn't want to be the Lady of Storm's End or the Lady of anything.  "That's not me" she says, reprising what she told her father in season 1.  And if the scene had ended right then it would have been very sweet.  Or if Arya had walked away to give Gendry some privacy to get over his disappointment it would have been sweet (well, bittersweet.)  But neither of those two things happened.  Instead Arya calmly picks up her bow and resumes target practice.  And I have to say -- damn.  That was a bit cold.

Edited May 8, 2019 by WatchrTina

[tv-talk]

13 hours ago, Portia4844 said:

Unfortunately, the writers decided to dumb down Dany, Tyrion, Varys, and Jon and turn Cersei into someone smarter than all of them.  And to turn Sansa into a version of LF and Cersei

I really think the show writers are simply not of the quality GRRM is and thus when they could no longer lean on his prose for the show suddenly all the characters became dumb and unable to turn a phrase.

[Andromeda]

While many think GGRM has lost interest in his saga,  I think D&D have,  too. That's why they're  rushing to wrap it up,  ticking off plot points and bypassing "filler" scenes that would serve to explain character actions.  They could easily have filled a 10-episode season,  but they were  anxious to run off and do Star Wars. 

That said,  I also wonder about GRRM's ability to close a giant multi-book saga.  It's tough to do,  and he hasn't yet done it. 

Edited May 8, 2019 by Andromeda

[Misplaced]

17 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

It's interesting to me that Tyrion seems far more concerned than Jaime about Cersei's pregnancy, which I'm at best only half convinced is even real and not another leash to try to control Jaime, Tyrion, and now Euron.  

I'm convinced it isn't real.  Notice that every time Tyrion uses the "You have something to live for!" argument, Cersei turns around and does Whatever Thing is opposite to what Tyrion is saying.  i.e. She doesn't have something to live for.  Instead

Spoiler

I think she has something that is killing her, like a stomach tumour.  Recall the "pregnancy" reveal, when Qyburn is leaning over her and says solicitously "I can give you something for that?" This guy isn't exactly known as the cuddly doctor type fellow, he's known as the destructive nutjob who created the Mountain - I think he's more likely offering her drugs for pain rather than helpfully solving her morning sickness.  Anyway my 2p.

[bijoux]

3 hours ago, Misplaced said:

I'm convinced it isn't real.  Notice that every time Tyrion uses the "You have something to live for!" argument, Cersei turns around and does Whatever Thing is opposite to what Tyrion is saying.  i.e. She doesn't have something to live for.  Instead

  Hide contents

I think she has something that is killing her, like a stomach tumour.  Recall the "pregnancy" reveal, when Qyburn is leaning over her and says solicitously "I can give you something for that?" This guy isn't exactly known as the cuddly doctor type fellow, he's known as the destructive nutjob who created the Mountain - I think he's more likely offering her drugs for pain rather than helpfully solving her morning sickness.  Anyway my 2p.

He could have been 

Spoiler

been offering something that induced an abortion. 

[benteen]

17 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Some people think that Tyrion was so dumb, that it must be a strategy.  It could be he was trying say, "The results are in, Euron, you are NOT the father!" to create division among him and Cersei.

I hope Tyrion hasn't really become as stupid as he looks.  Maybe it was all the time in the brothels that made him so smart, not all the books. 

Euron should have picked this up.  If Tyrion knew about it and it wasn't public knowledge, Euron should suspect.

GRRM can be a great writer (the first three books are proof of that and Fevre Dream is great too) but A Feast of Crows wasn't a particularly good book.  A Dance with Dragons was better but still, it doesn't come close to matching the first three books.  His gardening style has just led to bloating and long journeys that sometimes leave nowhere.  I think if he had finished the books, the TV scripts would have definitely been different.  But would they have been better?  Maybe.  He's a better writer than D&D but he's not exactly in his prime either.

[jeansheridan]

Also writing for television versus book form is obviously different. I still resent the show and Martin for wasting Tyrion when he is in Mereen.

I also think Cercei as evil genius is a result of needing to condense down the cast of characters. She really sits out a Dance with Dragons, recovering from her walk. The Tyrells are still a factor as is Aegon and his mentor. The Vale has a big cast too. I am not sure Cercei is the only big bad in the novels. So many moving parts. Clearly the show needed to narrow it all down.

I just noticed the parallel of Jon and Tyrion both misjudging their sisters. I don't hate Sansa for telling. I don't think Sophie telegraphed clever thinking (she looked rather blank in that scene). But I can see her trusting Tyrion to use that information in a way that might help her. Or it might get Jon killed (like does she know Dany knows too?). But Tyrion isn't a sneaky killer (although he was down with the Red Wedding. I remember he ultimately agreed with that choice). And he likes Jon. He isn't ruthless that way. 

[RobertDeSneero]

Maybe she told Tyrion to try and drive a wedge between him and Dany so that he wouldn't have divided loyalties and could be with her.  Or to get him to propose a marriage between Jon and Dany.

Maybe Dany burns down King's Landing in a way that makes her seen as unsuitable for the Iron Throne and Jon has to choose between following her into exile or accepting the crown to stave off civil war.

[andipandi]

15 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

And if the scene had ended right then it would have been very sweet.  Or if Arya had walked away to give Gendry some privacy to get over his disappointment it would have been sweet (well, bittersweet.)  But neither of those two things happened.  Instead Arya calmly picks up her bow and resumes target practice.  And I have to say -- damn.  That was a bit cold.

I was waiting for Gendry to be all "I didn't mean "a lady" like that, I like you how you are. You can be you, just with me?" but he's not glib with words, that one. He should have held the proposal until cersei was dead. Then, maybe Arya can think of the future. I could see them married but hiring a chatelaine to run the household.

[benteen]

I think unfortunately Arya is too broken to find peace and will spend her life as a wandering King's Justice type, delivering judgment on those she thinks deserves it.  Maybe if she lives to old age (which I think she will) she'll settle down.  But I don't see a spouse or kids in her future.

I don't think Gendry had a chance even if he waited until after Cersei is dead.  I think the answer would have been the same.  Although I'll agree he would have had a SLIGHTLY better chance.

[Jextella]

 

 

 

On 5/7/2019 at 8:45 AM, Portia4844 said:

I've never thought the outcome would be who is the best leader to sit on the throne.  It seemed it was about who will be the one to play the game that allows them to get or keep the throne.  

Good reminder!

[Constantinople]

On 5/8/2019 at 3:47 PM, benteen said:

I think...Arya...will spend her life as a wandering King's Justice type, delivering judgment on those she thinks deserves it.

Like Caine in Kung Fu?

Perhaps we'll have flashbacks of Jaqen H'ghar calling her grasshopper

[Lemuria]

On 5/6/2019 at 2:00 PM, Oscirus said:

After what Im sure would be a prolonged siege,

What siege?  Wouldn't there have to be a complete castle before an invading army planned a siege?  Instead of one where the enemy can just stroll through the missing portion of the wall that a passing Undead Dragon made?  

You'd think that oh-so-smart Sansa, instead of coming unprepared and saying that she'd have to ask her generals--all of whom were standing in that room--would have argued that with the castle damaged, they needed to leave some sort of a force behind to defend it.  But then, I still don't think she cared all that much about the state of health of the soldiers, her real goal was scoring points against Dany.

[Lemuria]

3 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Like Caine in Kung Fu?

But then wouldn't she have to start talking very...slowly...with...lots...of...pauses...between...words?

[jeansheridan]

22 hours ago, Jextella said:

seemed it was about who will be the one to play the game that allows them to get or keep the throne.  

Which could mean someone gets it by proxy. Sansa or Arya installs Jon on the throne or wins it for him. 

They made a point of showing Dany was a player too with her appointing Gendry to the Stormlands. So right now Dany kind of has the Stormlands, Pike, maybe Dorne. Sansa has the greater (but depopulated North) and the Vale. Cercei has the two richest regions the the freshest army and a functioning navy. And the Bank. If one of four people die (Jon, Cercei, Sansa, or Dany) their coalition falls apart. None of them have backup. It seems unlikely Sansa would get killed at this point unless Cercei has her own list. Sansa has the Vale army and whatever northerners straggle home if Dany and Jon fail. Sansa should not want them to fail.

Unless....would Sansa broker with Cercei? Would she????

[Marci]

That episode was such a disservice to the series.  I thought episode 2 was a time filler, but this one was so much worse. There were so many holes. I cannot see them making up for it in just 2 more episodes.

[John Potts]

I was surprised to see Iain Glen's name in the credits. I wonder how long they all had to lie on those pyres? Lovely ceremony that really did justice to the fallen. But would Sansa get that upset over Theon? I know, survivors of Ramsay, but they didn't seem very close (she got far more emotional than Danny did over Ser Jorah). And Ghost (thankfully still alive)!

Now that's showing smarts - offering a toast to Arya and elevating Gendry. So why did Danny suddenly get all pissy at everyone?  Though she was right about Jon's claim undermining her. And Varys was right that it's not a secret, it's information. Meanwhile, Jon does what he does best (brooding)!
OK, drunk Tormund is fun Tormund.

While it fits Bronn's character - how did Tyrion & Jamie get a tavern to themselves?

So Gilly was pregnant.

OK, how did Danny miss Euron!? I don't have a problem with him successfully ambushing Danny (there is a long tradition of ambushes at sea, from Salamis in 480BC to Midway in 1942AD) - if she hadn't had air cover. Now if it had been at night, that wouldn't be a factor. Though I guess they were tired of night shoots.

Cersei couldn't possibly believe Missendei was that valuable to Danny that she'd surrender. I guess she just killed her "For the Evulz"? Though in that case, surprising she didn't (try to) kill Tyrion during the parlay.

On ‎5‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 3:26 AM, anamika said:

Sam was so angry at Dany and still kept Jon's secret for him. Unlike Sansa.

Her father would be so disappointed.

On ‎5‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 3:36 AM, mjc570 said:

When Daenerys asks the perfectly reasonable question about how long the army needs to recover, Sansa could have actually answered ( a week, 2 weeks, whatever)  instead of just punting to some indefinite time.  No wonder Daenerys didn't listen to her perfectly reasonable suggestion.

I know! It seems that Danny & Sansa bring out the worst in each other. Danny just brought thousands of troops and three dragons to save the North and Sansa can't seem to say "Thank you." Meanwhile, Danny seems to be in a sudden rush to grab the Throne (almost as if she knew the series was coming to an end...) when she spent years just chilling in Essos*. You can take a couple of weeks for your troops to rest so they'll be in better shape to fight and win.

On ‎5‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 5:29 AM, jeansheridan said:

I am a bit surprised they didn't invade Dragonstone too. Who was holding it while she was gone?

I'm going to assume she left a (small) garrison there. One of the functions of a castle is to allow a small force to hold off a large one - for a while, at least.

On ‎5‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 1:12 PM, sacrebleu said:

I saw the Sansa-Sandor scene more as-- if she hadn't gone through what she'd gone through she would never have been in a position to help give humanity a chance to defeat the AotD.

I'm not sure it would have made much difference. Sandor would probably have done with Sansa what he did with Arya and tried to ransom her off. Unless they travelled fast and arrived in time for the Red Wedding (in which case, she'd be dead), she would have ended up in the Vale - where Littlefinger would then get his claws into her.

On ‎5‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 3:09 PM, spaceghostess said:

like other "heroic" characters on said show, has executed or dealt otherwise harshly with her enemies. Yet she's the only one who's being rushed off the deep end with extreme prejudice in the eleventh hour.

Agreed. I'd be fine with them saying that "Power Corrupts" and that ultimately that she's no better than (say) Robert, but to say she's ultimately EVIL! is going too far (IMO).

On ‎5‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 9:21 AM, jeansheridan said:

If the Romans had them shouldn't the medieval and Renaissance ships have them? Just wondering.

By that time, they were mounting canons (the Mary Rose, which would be roughly contemporary, mounted 60 - which probably contributed to it sinking!), which were more effective and faster loading - though not as deadly or quick firing as Euron's "Gatling" Ballistae!

* OK, not really, but it rather felt like that

[John Potts]

And a couple more things... (because clearly I haven't said enough!)

Danny and Sansa's positions make no sense. Prior to this point, Sansa has been stressing the importance of logistics and how it is going to be hard to feed everyone. So why is she the one arguing for delay? She should be stressing how important it is for Danny to deal with Cersei right now and essentially shoving her out the door, while Danny wants her forces to rest and recuperate. Also, if the Northern forces are marching down the Kingsroad, they're presumably anticipating no real resistance between Winterfell and Kings Landing - so how much of a conflict could it really be?

Secondly, those Euron ballistae are simply impossible. If they were as destructive as we see, they'd rip themselves off their moorings, by Newton's Second Law (every action has an equal and opposite reaction). The thing is, there's a simple solution to that - they could have been lobbing wildfire onto Danny's ships (though it probably would have been ineffective against Rhaegal). We know Cersei has access to that and we saw at Blackwater how destructive it could be (and I wouldn't be surprised if Qyburn has reverse engineered it by now).