S08.E04: The Last of the Starks

[Constantinople]

How many people do you have to kill, and how gruesomely, to be called "Mad"?

Aerys burned Ned's father alive, and also killed Ned's brother (I'm not sure if the show ever explained how). But I don't recall who else, if anyone, he killed on the show (I'm not saying he didn't, just that I don't remember).

Aerys didn't earn the sobriquet "The Mad King" because of his plan to blow up King's Landing with wildfire. Jaime didn't tell Brienne about the plan until years after; I'm not sure when he told Tyrion; I assume he told Cersei at some point.

[sistermagpie]

12 hours ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

It wasn't really like this, though. This is what Jon told the Northerners. But Dany decided to help out quite a while before Jon bent the knee. It was only after she risked her life and suffered some loses as well, that Jon decided to bent the knee.

9 hours ago, Drogo said:

Thank you. That metaphor wasn't hitting. 

Okay, so we'll slightly adjust it. There's a fire on the block. It's about to hit your house. Soon it will hit your neighbor's house, but not yet. Your dad runs to the neighbor and asks for her help in putting it out. She says only if you make me owner of your house. Then she relents and says okay and he gives her the house in return.

We all get that dad has handed over the house and that's that. But the question is about why the North isn't happy that he did that. Because it doesn't really make a difference to them that Jon bent the knee because he was carried away by gratitude rather than he had to do it (Arya sees him as having bent the knee to get her help).

So the question being asked is why are the North still grumbling about not wanting Dany as their queen after Jon bent the knee and she helped them fight the NK? As if either of those things logically lead to them wanting to be ruled by her. They have good reason to be grateful but no reason at all to express this gratitude by wanting to bow to her as queen.

9 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I was thinking the same thing.  These disloyal, backbiting, oath breaking Westerosis don't deserve Daenerys as their Queen.

She should pack up her remaining Unsullied, and Dothraki, and Drogon and head back to Meereen and let the ungrateful, cowardly shits like Varys, Tyrion and Sansa enjoy being under Cersei's thumb.  Cersei is the ruler they deserve. Cersei should get her spider, her little brother and her little dove back to have fun with.

This keeps getting put out as a threat when it's actually just the status quo. They've been living under Cersei's rule for a while now and weren't they already in rebellion? So they've already declared themselves not under Cersei's thumb. She'd have to march up north and conquer them and doesn't have a plan to do so at this point. She said the North couldn't be controlled by an outsider. Dany isn't protecting the North from Cersei, the North is sending soldiers to help beat Cersei to win the North for Dany. People say Dany should just pack up and go back to Essos as if Westeros would consider that a loss.

7 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Sansa didn't ask nicely. She really wasn't "asking" "What about the North", she was telling Daenerys she would never bow to her, after Jon already had bent the knee and submitted the North to her.

Dany didn't snatch her hand away and not say yes because Sansa didn't ask nicely, she pulled her hand away and didn't say yes because she wants the North to be under her control along with everyone else. Is there really any question that Dany's being influenced on this question by Sansa's tone? I think they were both perfectly happy having a conversation devoid of fake flattery and sweetness. The fly in the ointment was that yes, Sansa wants Northern independence and no, Dany doesn't want to give it. 

Quote

I am pretty sure, Dany had no intention of ruling the North with an iron fist or micromanaging it.  But having the North officially be one of her Seven Kingdoms was important to her credibility as Queen.  The Northerners would have been subjects in name, but more like allies in a practical sense.

Exactly. Having the North is important to her. The North being independent is important to people in the North--not just Sansa. It's a genuine conflict of interest, not just a personal dislike.

Quote

When Sansa says, "What about the North?"  She really means, "What about the Lady of Winterfell?"    "I won the Battle of the Bastards, you know.  You should be on your knees thanking me!"   

Sansa deserves to be ruled by Cersei.  

I think she means what about the North. Why would she think Dany cared about the Battle of the Bastards? Dany would probably see Ramsey Bolton as just as legitimate a Lord of Winterfell as Jon given her more distant relationship to the North. Even if Sansa is speaking from her personal feelings, those feelings reflect those of the North in general.

If it's normal for Dany to take advantage of the crisis of the NK to get the KitN to bend the knee, it makes just as much sense for the North to try to take advantage of Dany's conquest of the south to get independence for themselves. 

Re: an earlier comment I forgot to quote about it being okay for Dany to use WMD to take out Hitler, is Cersei like Hitler here? What I mean is, we know she's an evil woman and we've seen her blow up a sept to take out her personal enemies and she seems like she'd do just about anything to get the throne, but is she invading other places and committing genocide etc., making extreme measures possibly the better choice? (I could totally be forgetting something obvious.) Or is she just a bad queen hated by most of her people with few allies who's just standing in the way of Dany taking the throne instead? Because in that situation it seems like a really bad idea for Dany to start burning her own cities to get her. Especially since Dany's whole thing is that she wants to be seen as the beloved savior here. That would believably just leave everyone feeling like the're choosing between two queens who terrorize the populace.

Dany's view of her destiny is that she's supposed to be doing this to help the people, but her choices might or might not support that. Is she thinking of what's best for the kingdom or assuming that her on the throne as fast as possible is best for the kingdom because once she's there she'll start prioritizing that?

[JennyMominFL]

1 minute ago, proserpina65 said:

It may not make her mad, but it does make her a tyrant.

Look, I like Dany, and really hope it doesn't go down like that, but if it does, she's no better than what she wants to replace.

I agree.. But honestly, the Iron Throne is a Tyrant's position. An absolute Monarch is a tyrant. This is why I want the Iron Thone gone

[RealReality]

I don't know that Dany is "mad" or "crazy," as I think anyone who wants to sit on the iron throne has to be a little paranoid.

But, I think that we are seeing that "freeing people of their chains" is generally incompatible with being their queen.  

Dany has an army that willingly fights for her, she has people that would willingly die for her.  But how can you be breaker of chains if you torch people alive who do not choose your rule?  How do you be a queen to those who don't consent to your rule if they are truly free?  She isn't going to win the iron throne by a electoral college vote, she has to MAKE people accept her as queen, and she has shown a willingness to do that by any means necessary.

This is fine, but I think it's a struggle we're seeing.  If your message is that everyone is free from their bondage, then are her recent actions in line with that message?  I guess you could choose death, but that is the same choice under a cersei administration.

Cersei wins because she will make Dany stoop to her level to win, or she will have to lose trying not to kill innocents.

[Andromeda]

6 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

i am also choosing to believe that was just a parley not the whole army because if it were it’s pretty obvious dany has lost and should go home.

I has to be only a diplomatic escort. In the war room, the losses were half the Unsullied, which would be 4,000 of the 8,000 original troops. Then the new Dothraki commander sweeps all but two of the black triangles off the field -- I'm not sure how many there were originally, but quite a few. Certainly it wasn't a cavalry force of 100,000, which was a number tossed out at some point in the past.

[Bryce Lynch]

31 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

Exactly where and how did she go crazy? I have yet to understand where this is coming from. We are being told she's on the edge, or something like that, by Varys and Tyrion. But I have not been shown it. Or did I miss a scene of her ranting and raving and throwing dishes? Even that wouldn't be "crazy," just angry. 

Was she shown hearing voices? Seeing things that aren't there? Wanting to commit suicide or being bipolar? No, No, No and no, for starters.

I heard that in a deleted scene she threw a cup of hot Starbucks coffee in Sansa's face.  :)

We've seen some scenes with her becoming anxious and upset about Jon wanting to blab about his true identity to Sansa and Arya.  But, I thought that was pretty normal.  Him telling them (well Sansa, not Arya) jeopardized what both of them want, their relationship and her ascension to the Iron Throne.   That would make a normal person upset.  

[proserpina65]

1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

The argument about how Dany can get rid of Cersei while singing Kumbaya with the great unwashed of Flea Bottom merely reinforces how stupid it was not to torch the Red Keep and Euron's fleet at the start of Season 7.

THAT I can agree with.  Yes, some civilians would've died, but far fewer than now.  And I understand why Tyrion counseled against it, but if ever there was a time for a targeted strike on the Red Keep, it was when Dany first arrived in Westeros.

39 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

Sansa and the north wouldn't have had a problem bending the knee to her

I think they'd be resistant to bending the knee to anyone not of the North.

38 minutes ago, Absurda said:

Sansa:  The army needs to rest

Dany:  How long?

Sansa:  I don't know!

She followed that up by telling Jon to talk to the captains, who would know.  So actually not bad advice at all.

31 minutes ago, JennyMominFL said:

Is Cersie crazy or Evil?

Yes to both.

[proserpina65]

4 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I heard that in a deleted scene she threw a cup of hot Starbucks coffee in Sansa's face.  :)

Or was it chai?

[Absurda]

Quote

She followed that up by telling Jon to talk to the captains, who would know.  So actually not bad advice at all.

My point was she should have consulted with them BEFORE the meeting to have definite information rather than just a general statement and an "I'll get back to you later on that".

[Drogo]

1 minute ago, proserpina65 said:

She followed that up by telling Jon to talk to the captains, who would know.  So actually not bad advice at all.

Just lazy as shit unsolicited advice, like the guy in my meeting today who spoke up about something he has nothing to do with when no one was asking. 

[proserpina65]

Just now, Drogo said:

Just lazy as shit unsolicited advice, like the guy in my meeting today who spoke up about something he has nothing to do with when no one was asking. 

It was actually good advice on something which Jon should already have done but clearly hadn't.  Don't start moving troops around without checking on their state of health.

2 minutes ago, Absurda said:

My point was she should have consulted with them BEFORE the meeting to have definite information rather than just a general statement and an "I'll get back to you later on that".

Except that's something Jon should've done.  He's in charge of the military forces at Winterfell.  Clearly his mind was elsewhere.

[RealReality]

3 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Just lazy as shit unsolicited advice, like the guy in my meeting today who spoke up about something he has nothing to do with when no one was asking. 

People who have nothing to do with something always have the best advice about how to get everything accomplished 😉

[Andromeda]

6 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Jon isn't first in line merely because he's Rhaegar's "legitimate son"*** and Rhaegar was the eldest son of the Mad King. It's also because Jon's a man.

When discussing the the line of succession in the Seven Kingdoms, some have used the United Kingdom as a model.  But the UK has different laws and a different line of succession.

In the UK, if Sansa had only girls by Joffrey, the throne would pass to Joffrey's eldest daughter, not Joffrey's brother (Tommen). But here we're told that it would pass to his brother.

In the UK, Renly would be sixth

1. Joffrey (monarch's eldest son)
2. Tommen (monarch's second son)
3. Myrcella (monarch's daughter) (Note: Now she'd come before Tommen in the UK, but at the time the show aired, she'd come after)
4. Stannis (monarch's brother)
5. Shireen (monarch's brother's daughter aka niece
6. Renly (monarch's younger brother)

Renly could only be fourth in line in the Seven Kingdoms only if the men in that list all came before the women.

(Note: Credit goes to @Lady S. for pointing this out on another thread somewhere).

If Jon were a woman and Dany a man, Dany would have the superior claim even though Jon was the child of the king's eldest son (this is the same situation as Sansa's hypothetical, with Rhaegar as Joffrey and Dany as Tommen)

It's unclear what would happen if Jon and Dany were both women. Perhaps it would go to Jon as the daughter of the king's oldest son. Perhaps not.

*** Jon is legitimate only if Rhaegar's marriage to Lyanna Stark is valid. That marriage is only valid if the annulment of Rheagar and Elia's marriage is valid. But that annulment was granted in secret, and apparently without grounds. I have never heard of such a thing. Nor, given the importance placed on marriage alliances in this show, should it be permitted in the Seen Kingdoms. Secret, groundless annulments undermine aristocratic Westerosi society and put a question mark over the succession to every lordship.

But we appear to be stuck with secret, groundless annulments on the show.

Excellent post. We can't assume UK rules apply here. Those were even changed very recently, to place women into the direct line of succession. (You'd think they would have realized women should be automatically included after Elizabeth I, Queen Victoria and Elizabeth II and their successful reigns!). As someone else pointed out, Saudi's successions are quite different.

And YES on the annulment. I, too, have never heard of such as thing as a secret annulment, especially when it comes to rulers. It's kind of nonsense. The point of marriage is to make a public pronouncement (which is why marriage licenses require a witness) to society that you are bonded. Very, very critical when uniting big ruling houses like in Westeros.  It's one thing to try to get a divorce, like Henry VIII did, for which he ultimately had to break with the church and create his own, but everybody and their brother knew about it.

And even then, it caused all kinds of questions and problems for the line of succession (Mary v. Elizabeth), and how other countries viewed them (Mary was Spanish and Catholic.)

None of this is at all straightforward. It's really all about who succeeds in their claim. Renly knew this -- it was clear Stannis was before him in the line of succession, but he and his buds felt Renly would be a much better king, so they were intent on claiming the throne. Heck, the whole war started based on whether the three supposed heir children were legitimate (Joffrey, etc.), so basically, it's all in the eye of the beholder.

So if Dany's squad feels she's the rightful ruler because she birthed dragons and is resistant to fire, and therefore magical and really cool, and she has already proven herself a conquerer, and she wants it and Jon doesn't, why would they even considering stepping aside?

[Bryce Lynch]

26 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Okay, so we'll slightly adjust it. There's a fire on the block. It's about to hit your house. Soon it will hit your neighbor's house, but not yet. Your dad runs to the neighbor and asks for her help in putting it out. She says only if you make me owner of your house. Then she relents and says okay and he gives her the house in return.

We all get that dad has handed over the house and that's that. But the question is about why the North isn't happy that he did that. Because it doesn't really make a difference to them that Jon bent the knee because he was carried away by gratitude rather than he had to do it (Arya sees him as having bent the knee to get her help).

So the question being asked is why are the North still grumbling about not wanting Dany as their queen after Jon bent the knee and she helped them fight the NK? As if either of those things logically lead to them wanting to be ruled by her. They have good reason to be grateful but no reason at all to express this gratitude by wanting to bow to her as queen.

This keeps getting put out as a threat when it's actually just the status quo. They've been living under Cersei's rule for a while now and weren't they already in rebellion? So they've already declared themselves not under Cersei's thumb. She'd have to march up north and conquer them and doesn't have a plan to do so at this point. She said the North couldn't be controlled by an outsider. Dany isn't protecting the North from Cersei, the North is sending soldiers to help beat Cersei to win the North for Dany. People say Dany should just pack up and go back to Essos as if Westeros would consider that a loss.

Dany didn't snatch her hand away and not say yes because Sansa didn't ask nicely, she pulled her hand away and didn't say yes because she wants the North to be under her control along with everyone else. Is there really any question that Dany's being influenced on this question by Sansa's tone? I think they were both perfectly happy having a conversation devoid of fake flattery and sweetness. The fly in the ointment was that yes, Sansa wants Northern independence and no, Dany doesn't want to give it. 

Exactly. Having the North is important to her. The North being independent is important to people in the North--not just Sansa. It's a genuine conflict of interest, not just a personal dislike.

I think she means what about the North. Why would she think Dany cared about the Battle of the Bastards? Dany would probably see Ramsey Bolton as just as legitimate a Lord of Winterfell as Jon given her more distant relationship to the North. Even if Sansa is speaking from her personal feelings, those feelings reflect those of the North in general.

If it's normal for Dany to take advantage of the crisis of the NK to get the KitN to bend the knee, it makes just as much sense for the North to try to take advantage of Dany's conquest of the south to get independence for themselves. 

Re: an earlier comment I forgot to quote about it being okay for Dany to use WMD to take out Hitler, is Cersei like Hitler here? What I mean is, we know she's an evil woman and we've seen her blow up a sept to take out her personal enemies and she seems like she'd do just about anything to get the throne, but is she invading other places and committing genocide etc., making extreme measures possibly the better choice? (I could totally be forgetting something obvious.) Or is she just a bad queen hated by most of her people with few allies who's just standing in the way of Dany taking the throne instead? Because in that situation it seems like a really bad idea for Dany to start burning her own cities to get her. Especially since Dany's whole thing is that she wants to be seen as the beloved savior here. That would believably just leave everyone feeling like the're choosing between two queens who terrorize the populace.

Dany's view of her destiny is that she's supposed to be doing this to help the people, but her choices might or might not support that. Is she thinking of what's best for the kingdom or assuming that her on the throne as fast as possible is best for the kingdom because once she's there she'll start prioritizing that?

Yes, Sansa wants to reneg on Jon's oath to Dany after she sacrificed half her armies and one of her dearest friends to fight with and for the North.   

Sansa's tone and words made it pretty clear that she would not accept any sort of Dany's rule over the North.  She didn't ask for a deal like Aegon gave Dorne or Renly offered Robb, where the North would be largely independent, but under Dany's rule largely in name only.  

It is kind of funny that Sansa Lannister who desperately wanted to marry Joffrey and bear him a bunch of golden haired princesses has become such a Northern Independence fanatic.   It is also strange that this Northern Independence fanatic was the ONLY Northerner in the room not to stand and shout "The King in the North!" when Jon was made King.   

She is also the one who cowered in the crypts while other Northern ladies, much younger and smaller than her fought heroically.   

Alys Karstark was one of Theon's archers protecting Bran in the Godswood.

Lyanna Mormont killed a zombie giant with her dying breath.

Arya slew numerous white and then killed the Night King.  

Sansa Lannister, Northern Patriot,  hid in the crypts, giving off pessimistic vibes to the frightened women, children, dwarfs and eunuchs and complained about the Dragon Queen who was outside trying to save her ass.   What a patriot!    

Dany actually fought for the North.  The Northerners should be more worried about being under the control of a cowardly, entitled know it all, brat who has never lifted a finger to defend the North.  

Edited May 7, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[izabella]

39 minutes ago, Wendy said:

That scene between Daenerys and Jon sealed it for me. First she comes all conciliatory, she is not mad anymore, she is all meekly and humble, she had a purpose in mind and it was to convince Jon to keep the secret and to swear Sam and Bran to secrecy. She used her sex wiles and almost got away with it, but then when Jon told her that he needed to tell Arya and Sansa, the sweet loving Daenerys changed, now she was pleading, she was trying to make him see that it will affect them as a couple, she said "I just want it to me like it was before between us", dangling the loving relationship in front of his nose. Once Jon let her know that his family was important and they can work together meaning he was still going to tell them the secret, then Daenerys mood changed completely, now you got to see the real Daenerys, the one who said, " We can work together, I just told you how" with that expression in her face and the tone of voice that indicated that this was not a request, it was a threat. Jon even seemed surprised for a second there before she left.  

To me, that seemed like the same expression and tone of voice she used after her brother was "crowned" by the Dothraki to say "he was not a True Dragon."

[Bryce Lynch]

6 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

It was actually good advice on something which Jon should already have done but clearly hadn't.  Don't start moving troops around without checking on their state of health.

Except that's something Jon should've done.  He's in charge of the military forces at Winterfell.  Clearly his mind was elsewhere.

Do you really think neither Jon, Ser Davos, Grey Worm, Brienne or Nameless Dothraki Commnader had checked on the readiness of their troops?

[3jt]

ok, I am only 1/2 way through the 20 pages, I'm going to throw my 2 cents in now because it's going to take a while to get to the end. 

I keep reminding myself that the major players here are so very young. Danny was 14(?) when she was married to Drogo, Sansa was not much older when she was married to Bolton, John 15(?) when he went to the wall. Wasn't Arya like 9 when they went to King's Landing.... I don't know how much time has passed, but my point being that they are expected to deal with a lot for being so young. They have been through a whole lot!!! 

I am really angry with the way that Danny is being written. I know that taking the IT has been what has gotten Danny through a whole lot of monkey business, but EVERY DAMN CONVERSATION WITH HER IS I AM THE QUEEN!!  I MUST RULE!!!! We know her, we know what she has been through- these other people DO NOT. Of course no one in the North trusts her. To them she is just another MF telling them that she is their ruler. Sansa has zero reason to trust or like Danny. Jon, as a King,  was sent south to get dragon glass. He comes back with this chick and tells everyone that he is no longer the King, and we are all following her now. I see everyone's side. Mainly- I see that the writers are not being true to characters that I give a shit about.

Forgot to add- There is no reason for Sansa or anyone in the North to want to be ruled by any of the assholes in KL/Westeros--- they have been betrayed too many times.

Edited May 7, 2019 by 3jt
forgot something

[Hiacios]

Cersei was drinking wine while pregnant in episode 1. She ain't pregnant. 

[Chris24601]

2 hours ago, Bannon said:

I know I'm repeating myself, but it is just so ridiculously lazy to write a story this way. HBO needed, about 4 years ago, to tell these two that what they had wasn't good enough, and to try again.

To be fair, we don’t know how much of this is D&D and how much is what GRRM outlined to them as the endgame. As I mentioned previously, GRRM’s views on war and conquest probably dictated Dany ultimately becoming a villain from the start. Likewise, if the Mad King of the show was anything like the books, nuking King’s Landing was probably always in the cards too; even if Cersei wasn’t in charge because of some book character or another being there instead.

2 hours ago, Scaeva said:

Torching King's Landing may even kill more people than the Night's King offed.

In light of the Night King’s demise in episode three, I’ve been rethinking the symbolism of the s8 teaser with the map. At first it seemed to be depicting a great clash of fire and ice, but in retrospect the teaser was two parts... the first was Ice sweeping down from the North, but the second half was fire consuming the South (particularly the Lannister lion at King’s Landing).

I think that’s actually the season in a nutshell. The “Song of Ice and Fire” isn’t a single event, it’s two sequential events where The Prince Who Was Promised and his allies faces first Ice (the Night King) and then Fire (Dany)... which would account for the atypical order (Fire & Ice is more typical... unless it’s referring to the order of events like it would be here).

If that’s how it’s to go then, yes, I totally believe a tens of thousands plus body count at King’s Landing could happen.

We’ve never actually see Dany and Drogon fully unchained. She’s been counseled to hold back for so long now that I think we’re going to be utterly shocked at what Drogon can actually do when Dany just doesn’t care about collateral damage anymore (though I think we got a hint with undead Viserion’s continual stream of flame against The Wall at the end of last season).

1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

If dad, or grandad or whomever could have shoved aside his legally married wife and retroactively bastardized his children, with no notice to anyone, and for no reason, no one's title is safe.

Point of order. Annulments, at least if based on the Catholic Church variety, do NOT bastardize the children of the annulled marriage. The children are legitimate (which means “legal”) because the marriage was presumed legitimate at the time they were born.

Basically, it’s akin to recognizing a bastard as a genuine heir (see Gendry in this episode) only automatic instead of requiring the authority of the crown.

Therefore the order of inheritance would remain unchanged. The children of Rhaegar’s first wife would have remained legitimate and been ahead of Jon in line of succession if they hadn’t been murdered.

[Constantinople]

4 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Point of order. Annulments, at least if based on the Catholic Church variety, do NOT bastardize the children of the annulled marriage. The children are legitimate (which means “legal”) because the marriage was presumed legitimate at the time they were born.

Basically, it’s akin to recognizing a bastard as a genuine heir (see Gendry in this episode) only automatic instead of requiring the authority of the crown.

Therefore the order of inheritance would remain unchanged. The children of Rhaegar’s first wife would have remained legitimate and been ahead of Jon in line of succession if they hadn’t been murdered.

Fair enough, but the Catholic Church didn't hand out secret, groundless annulments either.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Constantinople

[GraceK]

3 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

We’ve never actually see Dany and Drogon fully unchained. She’s been counseled to hold back for so long now that I think we’re going to be utterly shocked at what Drogon can actually do when Dany just doesn’t care about collateral damage anymore (though I think we got a hint with undead Viserion’s continual stream of flame against The Wall at the end of last season).

I’m rooting for it now. Let her go out like a champ. I hope she takes them all down with her . They way she has been treated and the constant gaslighting and injustice done to her, I hope she does show what Fire and Blood unchained really does look like, and just how restrained she has been.

[Bryce Lynch]

5 minutes ago, Hiacios said:

Cersei was drinking wine while pregnant in episode 1. She ain't pregnant. 

I don't think the maesters of Westoros had discovered fetal alcohol syndrome.  Heck, they hadn't discovered it during "Mad Men" days.  

She may or may not be pregnant, by I wouldn't go by her wine intake.  

Jaime stated it as fact without even bringing up the possibility she was lying (after she lied about sending her troops North), so I sense that he had some sort of verification and wasn't just taking her at her word, but who knows?

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Yes, Sansa wants to reneg on Jon's oath to Dany after she sacrificed half her armies and one of her dearest friends to fight with and for the North.   

Yes, just as the family in the analogy would want to reneg on Dad handing over the house. They want their house.

You're not explaining how it's logical that the North, who also just sacrificed half their army and some of their nearest and dearest to defend themselves and is now marching with Dany to sacrifice more to help her win the Iron Throne should change their feelings on independence completely and suddenly happily embrace southern rule in response to Dany helping them. There doesn't seem to be any such expectation that, for instance, Dany would change her mind about wanting to rule them in response to them helping to take care of the NK problem or helping to put her on the IT. 

4 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

She is also the one who cowered in the crypts while other Northern ladies, much younger and smaller than her fought heroically.   

Alys Karstark was one of Theon's archers protecting Bran in the Godswood.

Lyanna Mormont killed a zombie giant with her dying breath.

Arya slew numerous white and then killed the Night King.  

Sansa Lannister, Northern Patriot,  hid in the crypts, giving off pessimistic vibes to the frightened women, children, dwarfs and eunuchs and complained about the Dragon Queen who was outside trying to save her ass.   What a patriot!    

Yes, being a patriot and being a warrior don't always go together. I don't think we know what Alys had to say about this situation but Arya has always expressed reservations about fully supporting Dany and Lyanna Mormont, iirc, considered Jon's knee bending a betrayal. I think she'd be very happy at the idea of Sansa asking Dany for independence. If she had a dying wish it might have been that.

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Do you really think neither Jon, Ser Davos, Grey Worm, Brienne or Nameless Dothraki Commnader had checked on the readiness of their troops?

That's why Sansa said they should ask them (the commanders) about it. If Jon and Dany already had asked them they would have just said that. There was no reason to be threatened by the question.

[Meredith Quill]

56 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Except they've been told they'll be protected in Kings Landing, and they can't depend on that out in the countryside.  I mean, you, I, everyone here knows Cersei is lying, but the masses tend to believe what they're told.  And they've surely heard about the destruction of the Loot/Provision train - that would make them less likely to think they'd be safe away from Cersei's army and outside the city walls mounted with dragon-killing scorpions.

Except the people don't think they'll definitely die if they don't leave Kings Landing.  They believe Cersei's army will protect them.  They're most likely wrong, but that's what they've been told.

Slight correction: That's what you think they've been told. In my mind they've been told nothing of the sort. Clearly they're aware there is danger approaching or they wouldn't be milling into the Red Keep. Tyrion's statement of "The people hate you and you hate the people" demonstrates that there's likely little trust of Cersei amongst the populace. So it isn't a stretch to imagine they could/should be able to figure out 'Cersei never does anything nice for us, why would she suddenly change now?' and then, by follow on logic, 'Let's not do the thing that Cersei says is the best thing for us to do, we can't trust her!'.

52 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

But they don't know that.  We do, but they are not privy to all the information we have.

If we're judging by 'what the people know' then the honest assertion is we don't know what they do and don't know, the show hasn't made it clear one way or the other. Therefore, my reasoning is as valid as any other.

46 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

It may not make her mad, but it does make her a tyrant.

Look, I like Dany, and really hope it doesn't go down like that, but if it does, she's no better than what she wants to replace.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this.

[Bryce Lynch]

6 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Fair enough, but the Catholic Church didn't hand out secret, groundless annulments either.

Secret, I don't know. Groundless? Absolutely, especially to powerful people.  Ted Kennedy received an annulment after 25 years of marriage, reportedly on the grounds that he said he didn't mean it when he promised to be faithful.   

Plus, we have no idea what the grounds of Rhaegar's annulment were and whether it was secret.  Gilly read that the wedding was secret, but it did not say the annulment was secret.  For all we know they had a hearing and Elia Martell admitted there were grounds.  

It may have been intentionally kept secret or it might have just never become news, as both Rhaegar and Elia were killed shortly after.   Or maybe both spouses wanted it kept quiet.  

[Andromeda]

5 hours ago, MrWhyt said:

Joffery and Ned (to a lesser extent) didn't have a say in the matter. Political marriages don't get called off just because the spouses don't like each other.

Then again, Ned and the king were best buds. If it came down to it, Ned could refuse to be Robert's hand if he didn't release Sansa from the betrothal. Most houses would jump at such a betrothal -- Ned benefited more from it than Robert, it was a favor to the Starks. Robert's only thought was to join their houses, so instead he could have offered Arya to Tommen (or Sansa to Tommen for that matter). He didn't have to see his daughter be queen.

But of course that would have required two unlikely things: Sansa to be honest, and Ned to be savvy.

[taanja]

On 5/5/2019 at 9:47 PM, Scarlett45 said:

I think Arya expects to die killing Cersei, which is why she thinks that she will never see her family again. 

I think Arya intends to do her own thing-- like always.

She never wanted marriage. She doesn't want to be a wife (or mother) and she certainly does not want some kind of domestic life at Winterfell.

and I really do NOT think she intends to die. I think she fully intends to kill Cersei and then ... ride away to west of Westeros. Or wherever.

[Bryce Lynch]

25 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes, just as the family in the analogy would want to reneg on Dad handing over the house. They want their house.

You're not explaining how it's logical that the North, who also just sacrificed half their army and some of their nearest and dearest to defend themselves and is now marching with Dany to sacrifice more to help her win the Iron Throne should change their feelings on independence completely and suddenly happily embrace southern rule in response to Dany helping them. There doesn't seem to be any such expectation that, for instance, Dany would change her mind about wanting to rule them in response to them helping to take care of the NK problem or helping to put her on the IT. 

Yes, being a patriot and being a warrior don't always go together. I don't think we know what Alys had to say about this situation but Arya has always expressed reservations about fully supporting Dany and Lyanna Mormont, iirc, considered Jon's knee bending a betrayal. I think she'd be very happy at the idea of Sansa asking Dany for independence. If she had a dying wish it might have been that.

That's why Sansa said they should ask them (the commanders) about it. If Jon and Dany already had asked them they would have just said that. There was no reason to be threatened by the question.

But Sansa has never given any evidence that she gives a damn about the North, other than wanting it as a kingdom to rule over herself.  

Lyanna seemed to have little respect for Sansa ("Are you a Lannister or a Bolton? I've heard conflicting reports.").  Davos had to talk her into committing troops and then Jon's courage won her over and inspired her to name him King in the North.   She expressed her displeasure with him bending the knee (and I understand it), but she didn't go around undermining him.   

Plus, she proved her love for the North by giving her life for it.   

Sansa got caught in a lie by Dany's question and tried to cover it up.   All those commanders are experienced, dedicated commanders who care about their troops.  They would have know the state of their troops before the meeting.   They didn't need the silly woman who didn't know which end of a dagger to use, to comment on things she knows nothing about.  

Edited May 7, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[Bryce Lynch]

4 minutes ago, taanja said:

I think Arya intends to do her own thing-- like always.

She never wanted marriage. She doesn't want to be a wife (or mother) and she certainly does not want some kind of domestic life at Winterfell.

and I really do NOT think she intends to die. I think she fully intends to kill Cersei and then ... ride away to west of Westeros. Or wherever.

Yeah, I think she is willing to die to kill Cersei, but there is no way she plans to die.  I think she might plan to head back to Braavos to officially join the Faceless Men.  Or maybe she would roam Westeros or Essos killing people who need killing to defend the weak.  

[Bannon]

26 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

To be fair, we don’t know how much of this is D&D and how much is what GRRM outlined to them as the endgame. As I mentioned previously, GRRM’s views on war and conquest probably dictated Dany ultimately becoming a villain from the start. Likewise, if the Mad King of the show was anything like the books, nuking King’s Landing was probably always in the cards too; even if Cersei wasn’t in charge because of some book character or another being there instead.

There's nothing inherently wrong about a deadly conflict breaking out among the anti-Cersei leadership, as that leadership is removing Cersei, but to write it well as tragedy, you have to do it far differently than what we have seen. Who knows? Maybe Martin did insist that the anti-Cersei forces would behave as if they had been lobotomized, and/or Euron had been given a cloaking device for his fleet by visiting Romulans (to list just two problems). But I doubt it. I just know that seasons 7 and 8 have been increasingly problematic, and the last half hour of "Last of the Starks" was utter and complete crap that any writer should be ashamed of having given to other professionals to film. 

[Meredith Quill]

Speaking of 'what the people know' isn't helpful but what we can do is speculate on what they should reasonably have been able to assess or wonder about.

• A dragon Queen exists who wants to depose Queen Cersei.
• Dragons breathe fire, very hot, turn you instantly to ash, fire... Harrenhal anyone? We've all heard the stories.
• Cersei hates the people and the feeling is mutual (see Walk of Shame for example).
• The Great Sept of Baelor apparently had a shit ton of wildfire stored under it, which either blew up accidentally and conveniently happened to kill all of Cersei's enemies (the Faith Militant were all in there), on the very day she was supposed to stand trial OR... Cersei blew it up - hmmm, which is the most likely? 🤔
• There's every chance a dragon attack is coming judging by all the GIANT fucking ballistas going up everywhere.
• Cersei has opened the gates to the Red Keep courtyards to keep everyone safe, from dragonfire, which falls from the sky...wut.
• If there was wildfire under the Sept, is there wildfire stored anywhere else in the city that could also "accidentally" explode???
• If Cersei's Red Keep protection fails, are we all gonna become crispy burnt toast? Should we GTFO or risk it?
• WHY WOULD CERSEI SUDDENLY CARE ABOUT US, THE SMALLFOLK, she never has before?!
• The Dragon Queen wants to get rid of Cersei, she isn't after us....let's get the hell away from Cersei and the coming shitstorm NOW!

I could go on.

[Clanstarling]

36 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

Except they've been told they'll be protected in Kings Landing, and they can't depend on that out in the countryside.  I mean, you, I, everyone here knows Cersei is lying, but the masses tend to believe what they're told.  And they've surely heard about the destruction of the Loot/Provision train - that would make them less likely to think they'd be safe away from Cersei's army and outside the city walls mounted with dragon-killing scorpions.

Except the people don't think they'll definitely die if they don't leave Kings Landing.  They believe Cersei's army will protect them.  They're most likely wrong, but that's what they've been told.

Slight correction: That's what you think they've been told. In my mind they've been told nothing of the sort. Clearly they're aware there is danger approaching or they wouldn't be milling into the Red Keep. Tyrion's statement of "The people hate you and you hate the people" demonstrates that there's likely little trust of Cersei amongst the populace. So it isn't a stretch to imagine they could/should be able to figure out 'Cersei never does anything nice for us, why would she suddenly change now?' and then, by follow on logic, 'Let's not do the thing that Cersei says is the best thing for us to do, we can't trust her!'. 

Cercei: "Our message was well received then?

Qyburn: "Your people have heard the Usurper is coming. They are grateful for your protection within the walls of the Red Keep."

Seems pretty clear they've been told that. Whether or not they're suspicious is a different matter - but they are congregating in the keep. Which has always been (all fortresses, not just the Red Keep) the traditional stronghold and place of safety for small folk - even in our own middle ages.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Clanstarling

[Meredith Quill]

3 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Cercei: "Our message was well received then?

Qyburn: "Your people have heard the Usurper is coming. They are grateful for your protection within the walls of the Red Keep."

Seems pretty clear they've been told that. Whether or not they're suspicious is a different matter - but they are congregating in the keep. Which has always been (all fortresses, not just the Red Keep) the traditional stronghold and place of safety for small folk - even in our own middle ages.

To me that's Qyburn kissing her ass and schmoozing her, much like Illyrio to Viserys with his "The people pray for the return of their rightful King" schtick. 

Sure some people will always fall for it and mill into the Red Keep like sheep but we've been told the population of KL is 1 million people. I didn't see anything even close to thousands in the Red Keep courtyards. So not so much 'the people' as 'some, cough, a very small % of people'.

[sistermagpie]

33 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

But Sansa has never given any evidence that she gives a damn about the North, other than wanting it as a kingdom to rule over herself.  

I don't see any story in the show where Sansa is a Cersei of the North, stabbing the heart of the place to weaken it just so she can rule it. Her desires for herself and desires for the North seem completely in harmony with each other. Sansa basically is the North in this symbolic sense. She suffered through tyrannical rulers and is paranoid of outsiders having power over her, even foreigners who claim to be good.

Quote

Lyanna seemed to have little respect for Sansa ("Are you a Lannister or a Bolton? I've heard conflicting reports.").  Davos had to talk her into committing troops and then Jon's courage won her over and inspired her to name him King in the North.   She expressed her displeasure with him bending the knee (and I understand it), but she didn't go around undermining him.   

Plus, she proved her love for the North by giving her life for it.   

I don't think it's relevant how Lyanna felt about Sansa personally. (Even that quoted question shows distrust of somebody not 100% Stark.)  I was talking about how Lyanna would feel about the North being independent even after the Battle of Winterfell. We'll never know how Lyanna would have acted had she been in that war room scene but it's hard for me to imagine her being angry about what Sansa said. It doesn't seem like she'd think of Dany as her Queen in her heart. 

Quote

Sansa got caught in a lie by Dany's question and tried to cover it up.   All those commanders are experienced, dedicated commanders who care about their troops.  They would have know the state of their troops before the meeting.   They didn't need the silly woman who didn't know which end of a dagger to use, to comment on things she knows nothing about.  

I don't remember the whole scene--what lie are we talking about that Sansa said? There's nothing in the scene that I remember where Dany or anyone else made it clear that Sansa's question was silly. In fact, they avoided it by not just saying that they had taken care of the problem. Nor do I see the other people in the room not reassuring Sansa about the state of the troops proof that it was already taken care of--that seems more like the opposite to me too.

Really, it just seems like a red flag that somebody would bring up resting the troops after a big battle and the question wouldn't be treated with respect even if the troops were in fact well-rested. 

Edited May 7, 2019 by sistermagpie

[Andromeda]

4 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

That'd be a very small % and one assumes most of those have family/friends to help them. Winter is better than certain death wouldn't you agree?

I thought of that, too. Dany & Team could warn the citizens that they're coming. Instead of heading into the Red Keep, the people should go out into the countryside.

[arty]

2 hours ago, Wendy said:

Once Jon let her know that his family was important and they can work together meaning he was still going to tell them the secret, then Daenerys mood changed completely, now you got to see the real Daenerys, the one who said, " We can work together, I just told you how" with that expression in her face and the tone of voice that indicated that this was not a request, it was a threat. Jon even seemed surprised for a second there before she left. 

This was a Yikes moment for me. I couldn't believe that she was talking to him the way she spoke to Viserys when he threatened her or Jorah when he betrayed her. Huge red flag that this relationship is not in Jon's best interest: asking him to lie to his family about his true identity so that it doesn't throw a spanner in her lifelong plans. Of course, Jon is so in love that he brushes it off and goes the extra mile to appease her in the Last War strategy session by sharply shutting Sansa down. Not how I expected this cosmic love story (isn't that how a GoT director described it?) to unfold, at all. 

[hnygrl]

I JUST realized something important. If it's been stated already, I'm sorry (gotta get outta here).

Euron JUST FOUND OUT Cersi was preggers. JUST. Found out.

HOW THE HELL DID TYRION KNOW ALREADY????????

Uh Oh....

I think Euron's gonna kill Cersi...

[arty]

29 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't see any story in the show where Sansa is a Cersei of the North, stabbing the heart of the place to weaken it just so she can rule it. Her desires for herself and desires for the North seem completely in harmony with each other.

I agree. It's not a coincidence that Cersei in this ep was shown ordering that her castle gates remain open for more people to enter as Sansa was shown doing the same in Winterfell in episode 2. The difference in intent is what makes Sansa Cersei's foil rather than her protege, IMO.

[Andromeda]

3 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I think with Dany everyone is looking for signs that she is the "Mad Queen", so she gets labeled crazy for things that wouldn't cause other characters to be labeled that way.  

What I'm still trying to figure out is where this is coming from — both within the show for the characters, and without, from the fans. I get the feeling that spoilers are leaking into this thread (I'm unspoiled), because I'm not seeing that much evidence within the show itself. But there's also the poor writing that is SHOWING us instead of TELLING us, when all I see is a heartbroken woman, not a crazy one.

For instance, has anyone in the show used the phrase "Mad Queen" to apply to Dany? I remember a few references to her father here and there, warnings not to be like him, but that's all I recall.

So is it from things the showrunners have said, or something?

Also, if mad means mad like Mad Max, I'm totally down with it.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Andromeda

[UNOSEZ]

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

I’m rooting for it now. Let her go out like a champ. I hope she takes them all down with her . They way she has been treated and the constant gaslighting and injustice done to her, I hope she does show what Fire and Blood unchained really does look like, and just how restrained she has been.

Many of these ppl have suffered.. I can't speak to events before the show started.. I know she's had to escape ppl trying to kill her.. How frequent and how close she came I dunno.. But since the show started... She's had a modicum of agency since end of season 1 when a bunch of unruly brown people were all kneeling before her naked body (ugh!!!!) Sansa and Arya were busy watching their father get his head chopped off.. Sansa became a plaything for a psycho and his mother while they screwed with her head.. She got married off to tyrion.. Her mother and brother were killed.. Meanwhile Arya had to serve the father of basically all her troubles and got within feet and minutes of seeing her brother and mother before they were killed.. Next after some more Joffery madness Sansa ends up in the vale where her psycho aunt tries to kill her before she's killed by the creep who loves her as a daughter and as a woman.. And again as Arya gets within feet of some semblance of peace and family she's told her aunt is dead too.. Mind you on her travels she's seen numerous ppl tortured and killed escaped death once or twice and got the only friend she'd made taken from her by some creepy witch... Then Sansa gets married off again to Ramsay.. No real point in recapping him is there... Meanwhile Arya has traveled alone to a new place and get immediately bullied by a jealous T100 called the waif.. Gets blinded for quite some time and is left homeless.. And while all these things are happening Jon snow and Bran aren't fairing much better... Jon goes north ends up falling in love.. Has to betray that love... That love ends up dying.. He has to swallow his pride and work with enemies.. He loses many brothers  of the black.. And of course all the deaths in his family... Dad.. Step mom... Brother.. He also gets murdered by his own men... So that's pretty rough.. Bran has to watch what is essentially his older brother Theon come back and betray him... Go on the run with his lil brother.. Somewhere in there lose a valued knight and his family's maester.. Constantly in danger kidnapped by rogue night watchmen.. Then he goes even further north and jojen dies and hodor and summer die... He loses touch with his baby bro and his brain gets overwritten with the history of the world.. Almost gets killed again by the NK and his minions.. But his zombie uncle saves him... Sansa escapes the horror show that is Ramsay meets up with Jon in time to see their little brother rickon murdered... All this is happening while Dany faces the "injustice " of burning a slave trader alive to take control of the unsullied and Getting Missandei ( subsequently freeing all of them... Not that any of them had an inkling of what freedom really meant) then the injustice of getting The second sons to aid in taking mereen... Then the injustice of naming herself queen and having the throngs of former slaves call her mommy... Everyone in this saga has suffered hell even scumbag cersei lost all 3 of her children in a short timeframe... But nothing that has happened.. Honestly to anyone would excuse or condone raining down fire on the populace... And if were stacking up horrible things and weighing them equally as possible I don't think Dany is even on top that list to say " of all the ppl left I should be angriest" she just lost two ppl very close to her.. But where they closer to her than Cersei's kids were to her?  I doubt it... And as much as she calls those dragons her children... She rides them into battle I can't really square that approach and how she views them.. To me there is a disconnect when things don't go her way she has her "kids" hurt ppl that doesn't totally sit right with me.. Don't get me wrong... If I got a dragon.. I'm burning shit too... Just don't think I'd call them my kids 

[paigow]

2 hours ago, Drogo said:

Just lazy as shit unsolicited advice, like the guy in my meeting today who spoke up about something he has nothing to do with when no one was asking. 

Hopefully you invoked your right to "Mortal Kombat" so it will never happen again....

[QuinnM]

53 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

For instance, has anyone in the show used the phrase "Mad Queen" to apply to Dany? I remember a few references to her father here and there, warnings not to be like him, but that's all I recall.

Many times.  Most recently was when Jon went to Dragonstone and said we are not our fathers.

[Hiacios]

2 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I don't think the maesters of Westoros had discovered fetal alcohol syndrome.  Heck, they hadn't discovered it during "Mad Men" days.  

She may or may not be pregnant, by I wouldn't go by her wine intake.  

Jaime stated it as fact without even bringing up the possibility she was lying (after she lied about sending her troops North), so I sense that he had some sort of verification and wasn't just taking her at her word, but who knows?

My point is she is pregnant and drinking wine. No wounder all of her kids are messed up, they're product of incest, alcohol, and a vile to the core woman. 

[GraceK]

10 minutes ago, Hiacios said:

and a vile to the core woman. 

😂😂😂😂😂 “ the womb of a succubus from hell!” 

[MrWhyt]

2 hours ago, Andromeda said:

Then again, Ned and the king were best buds. If it came down to it, Ned could refuse to be Robert's hand if he didn't release Sansa from the betrothal. Most houses would jump at such a betrothal -- Ned benefited more from it than Robert, it was a favor to the Starks. Robert's only thought was to join their houses, so instead he could have offered Arya to Tommen (or Sansa to Tommen for that matter). He didn't have to see his daughter be queen.

But of course that would have required two unlikely things: Sansa to be honest, and Ned to be savvy.

yes like I said Ned has a better chance of getting the thing called off, if he put together a good argument and actually pressed his case, but that wasn't going to happen cause Ned was an honorable man (for good and bad) and obeyed his king. The theory that if Sansa told the truth, Joffery would get pissy and Robert would then give in to his demands and call off the wedding is not believable..

[Bryce Lynch]

34 minutes ago, Hiacios said:

My point is she is pregnant and drinking wine. No wounder all of her kids are messed up, they're product of incest, alcohol, and a vile to the core woman. 

It's not easy being the Mother of Madness.  Everyone would do it if it were easy.

Edited May 8, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[Hiacios]

22 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

The problem is that Dany’s always had the Shadow King archetype. It’s why she collects titles like other people collect stamps and why she’s so put off by people showing loyalty to people other than her. It’s why she’s prone to lashing out and making threats when she suffers a reversal or receives less than perfect acquiescence (note that the most effective means of “managing” Dany has been presenting alternative means of getting the same general results).

This is because the Shadow King is fundamentally insecure in their own power; and Dany is doubly so now that Jon’s revealed his parentage because it utterly undermines her most effective claim to legitimacy.

So to assuage this insecurity, the Shadow King focuses on the trappings. In many ways the trappings are more important than truly having the power.

It doesn’t matter that Cersei has nothing but King’s Landing... what matters to the insecure Shadow King is that even being able to make the claim of being “A” queen is a threat to her.

If she was going to grow into the True King archetype, she wouldn’t be so laser focused on the symbolism of the Iron Throne to the point of dismissing the well-being of her own troops need to rest and recouperate and ignoring the fact that the new leadership in Dorne supports her claim.

Because legitimate control of the North, Vale, Iron Islands and Dorne; with the Riverlands pretty easy to retake (which would provide a solid line of defense for their holdings as they regroup and rearm for a spring campaign to put Cersei in a two-front war from the Riverlands in the north and Dorne in the south); doesn’t assuage the underlying insecurity.

I think Tyrion really did highlight the truth of it... Dany fell victim to her own hype over in Essos and has been off-balance ever since reaching Westeros because her self-perceived destiny isn’t playing out as envisioned and, as is common for the Shadow King, is lashing out in an attempt to bring it back into line with that vision.

No. Because if this were Dan Targaryen vs. Joanne Snow/Anne Targaryen... Joanne would STILL have the better claim, because she is the eldest surviving child of the Crown Prince.

Dany’s problem is she staked her claim on the moral legitimacy of being best claimant due to her Targaryen bloodline. Now that she CAN’T make that claim, she insists the rules be changed from the ones SHE set (i.e. legitimate heir to the previous Targ king) to let her still get what she wants.

Jon knelt under false pretenses. He’d been lied to about his identity all his life. Had he known, then by right of the same claims Dany was using to name herself Queen, SHE should have been the one bending the knee to the true heir to Iron Throne when he asked her to bring her forces North for the good of the Realm.

She’s as power hungry... and as illegitimate... as Cersei, Joffrey and Renly (all of whom had no legitimate claim at all or were trying to jump the line). By demanding Jon deny his true identity, she’s making herself just as much a usurper to the true king as Robert was.

Dany is illegitimate? LMAO! She is the last Targaryen period. Jon died and will die again but with no Melisandre to bring his ass back this time. 🙂

Edited May 8, 2019 by Hiacios

[Andromeda]

3 hours ago, Hiacios said:

Cersei was drinking wine while pregnant in episode 1. She ain't pregnant. 

I never thought the reveal of her pregnancy to Tyrion had anything to do with wine. I saw her placing her hand over her tummy in a protective fashion, which signaled her pregnancy. I highly doubt they know of Fetal Alcohol Syndrome in Westeros, so I wouldn't use her wine drinking as a gauge. (Besides, with her habitual incest, would she really be concerned about a few glasses of wine affecting the health of her offspring?)

Edited May 8, 2019 by Andromeda

[Andromeda]

1 hour ago, QuinnM said:

Many times.  Most recently was when Jon went to Dragonstone and said we are not our fathers.

But did he say "Don't be a Mad Queen" or any other Mad Queen statement? That's what I'm getting at. Where'd the phrase debut? Does anyone know? Because it's sure taken hold, when Dany is still not cray-cray.

Her dad went truly cray, burning his advisors alive in metal armor, trying to bring dragons back with magic, all kinds of nutty stuff. I haven't seen Dany do anything a man who wants power in this world hasn't done.

This is a good description of her father:

"Out of all the kings to sit on the Iron Throne, none induced a level of tyranny, madness, and especially cruelty as Aerys Targaryen did during his rule. Dubbed the Mad King, Aerys seemingly began as a benevolent ruler until he was overwhelmed by the so-called "Targaryen madness" brought on by an incestuous bloodline. As a result, he began displaying traits of intense psychopathy, insanity, and sadistic intentions, exacerbated by hallucinations, schizophrenia, and paranoia regarding his own claim to the Throne, to the point where he burnt anyone he believed was against him, until half of the people whom he ruled were already against him.

"Like many Targaryens, such as his son Viserys, Aerys was obsessed with the self-conception that he was a dragon in human skin. In regards to this, he killed his victims in a similar manner to that which a dragon would; burning them alive. Jaime Lannister once observed that he loved watching them char until their skin blackened, indicating he may have suffered from pyromania, and this, combined with sadism and hopeless delusions, spurred his already oppressive reign into complete tyranny. In a final bid where it appeared Robert Baratheon would take King's Landing, Aerys planted wildfire throughout the city, even the Red Keep where Aerys himself was staying. Not for one second, however, did he believe that it would result in his death, like his uncle Prince Aerion Targaryen, who killed himself by drinking wildfire. Instead, he thought he would be reborn as a dragon through a baptism by fire and burn his enemies in retribution."

Whacky, no? He was a deeply disturbed, rubber-room kind of crazy. It sounds like he thought he was fireproof. Dany actually is fireproof. I'd hoped that feature would have a point in the end game, but with the writing being not so great, maybe it's just a weird one-off.

Also, I would love it if Dany flips expectations and doesn't succumb to the expected Targaryean Madness. Because reversing expectations, and all that.

Come to think of it, it would nothing short of awesome if Dany actually DID turn into a dragon at the end. It would explain so much.  Oh, well, I'll just make up that story in my head.... lol.

As for wildfire, I wouldn't be surprised to see Cersei taking cues from him -- if she can't have the throne, no one can! (Boom!)

Edited May 8, 2019 by Andromeda
The Mad King was a weirdo.

[QuantumMechanic]

On 5/6/2019 at 8:56 PM, Hiacios said:

You just made my point. Jon only has a right to the throne because he is a Targaryen and he only has more right to the throne over Dany because he is a male. Take the Targaryen part out and that all falls away.

Nope.  He has the right to the throne because he is the only surviving child of the firstborn child of the king.  If he were a woman he'd still have a right to the throne over Dany, even if Dany was a man.