S08.E02: A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms

[enoughcats]

10 hours ago, catrice2 said:

Very little has been said about how Dany will feel fighting her own dragon.  In fact, even though Bran mentioned it, no one seems to really be planning for that..

Arya is. 

We saw her look up and smile when the two dragons passed overhead.  After that, she took the diagram to Gendry.  Arya has traveled a lot and seen a lot of things.  Of all the characters, she's more of a world traveler than anyone beside Euron.  Bron told that one dragon had been turned.  Warrior Arya would remember that morsel.

[DarkRaichu]

12 minutes ago, Timetoread said:

Are we supposed to suppose that because Jon was her brother's child and has a penis that she should just GIVE him everything, become his concubine, so he can just casually saunter up to the throne?  The thought of that pisses me off because it feels EXTREMELY sexist.  

Not sexist, IMHO, just the way they operate.  This was similar to how in season 2, Stannis expected his younger brother, Renly, to give up his claim to the throne (along with his army) just because Stannis was older

[GodsBeloved]

4 minutes ago, Timetoread said:

Okay but here's where I part ways with most other viewers:  while Jon is now the official heir of House Targaryan, I don't think that means anything.  Last I checked, House Targaryan had been kicked to the curb by Robert Baratheon - Cersei sits on the throne now on the strength of THAT name.  It would seem Gendry would have the most immediate right to the throne, not Jon, unless he wanted to fight for it.  Which leads me to, with what army is Jon expecting to fight for the throne?  Dany didn't get her army from her name.  She is Khaleesi by marriage and conquer.  SHE freed the Unsullied who gave their allegiance by choice to HER.  SHE conquered Mereen and freed those people.    SHE hatched those dragons from eggs given to her and raised them like her own children.  They are hers.  The armies are hers.  Her accomplishments are hers.  Are we supposed to suppose that because Jon was her brother's child and has a penis that she should just GIVE him everything, become his concubine, so he can just casually saunter up to the throne?  The thought of that pisses me off because it feels EXTREMELY sexist.  I'd like to add here that it would seem to me that somebody ruling 7 kingdoms should want to do so. Jon is not a very good leader at all.  He's a nice guy and very earnest but he has not successfully led ANYTHING, nor does he seem to care about the fate of his people in general.  He's just gotten very lucky and the audience has turned a blind eye to his flaws. I know I'm alone, but I have NO desire to see Jon claim a throne he hasn't wanted or earned.  I wish him happiness but a strong ruler he is not.

If Daenarys drops the "it is my right, the 7 kingdoms are mine because I am the a Targaryen, the rightful Targaryen" then no she shouldn't just give Jon everything.

If she instead embraces that she is now a usurper, instead of the "rightful" Queen because of her birth then again no she shouldn't hand everything over to Jon.

But if her argument is that it's her right by birth then it's Jon's right by birth as well. Even then I'm not saying she should just give up but it would seem, to me at least, that this birth right thing was only really valid as long as it was her who benefited from it.

[larapu2000]

Everything great about this episode has been mentioned except for Sansa's FIERCE FUCKING OUTFIT.

That's honestly why Dany is loathe to like her.  Girlfriend BRINGS IT.

[Timetoread]

13 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Not sexist, IMHO, just the way they operate.  This was similar to how in season 2, Stannis expected his younger brother, Renly, to give up his claim to the throne (along with his army) just because Stannis was older

The they I was referring to wasn't the people in the show, it was the people here who watch it.  Let Jon get his own army.  He is not OWED the Throne anymore than she is.  He is just an heir of the Targ house.  He can go look stupid at Dragonstone.  The armies she has pledge allegiance to her, not him.

Also Stannis killed his brother AND his daughter and got nothing for it. Most honorable knight Brienne did not see Stannis as rightful ANYTHING.  Stannis is not the righteous template even by this show's standards.

Edited April 22, 2019 by Timetoread

[GodsBeloved]

11 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Surely the Iron Islands aren't safe now with the Night King on dragonback. 

That was my thought too.

[Timetoread]

3 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

If Daenarys drops the "it is my right, the 7 kingdoms are mine because I am the a Targaryen, the rightful Targaryen" then no she shouldn't just give Jon everything.

If she instead embraces that she is now a usurper, instead of the "rightful" Queen because of her birth then again no she shouldn't hand everything over to Jon.

But if her argument is that it's her right by birth then it's Jon's right by birth as well. Even then I'm not saying she should just give up but it would seem, to me at least, that this birth right thing was only really valid as long as it was her who benefited from it.

The birth right thing was never that valid to begin with, the Targaryans were overthrown.  ANY Targ would need to fight to win it back.   Jon is perfectly welcome to fight for it.  Just not with her stuff.

Edited April 22, 2019 by Timetoread

[enoughcats]

6 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Dolorous Edd mentioning how he, Sam, and Jon are the last of the Night's Watch.

Totally missed that.  Thanks for pointing that out.

[Constantinople]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I didn't really buy the idea that any knight can make anyone else a knight.  If that were the case, how hasn't Ser Bronn of the Blackwater made a fortune selling knighthoods?

I would think it would take at least a Lord or Lady to make a knight.  I sort of thought that was what Catelyn Stark did to Brienne when Brienne swore herself to her and she promised to always give Brienne as place at her hearth and to never ask her to do anything to bring her dishonor.   

I don't know what the rule is in Westeros, but at one time, that was the case in the Middle Ages. I recall one French King being knighted after a battle by a famous knight. It was considered an honor because the King was knighted by someone comparable to Barristan Selmy.

That said, it was always more prestigious to be knighted by a king or a high ranking noble. Also over time, kings more or less took over the knight business so that no one else could do it.

As for Bronn selling knighthoods, it would quickly devalue them. People would quickly stop ponying over money for a "Bronn" knighthood

[Chris24601]

19 minutes ago, One Tough Cookie said:

I think Dany will kill Jon and Sam to keep the secret.

She may very well try, but she won’t succeed. Not in episode three certainly (which is also why we can be assured the Stark’s safety next episode... they didn’t get the closure elements of interaction with each other one last time that so many others did).

If Dany tries to kill Jon and Sam (and Bran) then her endgame is Shadow King... the “Fire” of the Song of Ice (Night King) and Fire (Dany) that Jon will have to overcome as the reluctant but true king (honestly, his reluctance for power over others is one of the surest signs of a True King archetype... they see power as a burden and rule out of duty to their people rather than a desire for power for themselves).

If so, the series is going Super-Jungian* for its conclusion because as I stated about last episode, Jon starting on the outs with the rest of the Starks means the narrative reversal of the season has to be his realignment with them.

The reason I say Super-Jungian is because Arya, Bran and Sansa absolutely embody the archetypes of Warrior (skilled and loyal), Magician (keeper of secret lore) and Lover (good at reading people and social cues) respectively and for the King archetype to be fully realized it must overcome its Shadow by drawing upon the strengths of the Warrior, Magician and Lover (in real life these are all aspects of the same person with the King as full actualization of all aspects in unison, but in fiction you can externalize them into characters of their own).

Put bluntly, if Dany fails her test and proves herself the Shadow King, then Jon needs to reconcile with his family to overcome her and become the True King.

IF she fails the test of character she’s been presented that is.

* Indeed, one can even say the overall narrative is that of the four main Starks growing from the four child archetypes into the four adult archetypes by overcoming various external shadow archetypes.

[Wendy]

23 minutes ago, Timetoread said:

I didn't mind this episode.  There were a lot of character beats that needed to be cleaned up before the show cleans house with most dead but the victor.

What I liked:  Sansa/Dany.  That was a productive, realistic conversation.  Up until this point Dany's had to conquer the land she took over.  This time she has to win over people for them to follow her.  I think she can do that because I didn't see anything but respect from her for Sansa for playing hardball.  She thought that Sansa was just a jealous or overprotective sister, but she found out that Sansa is really the TRUE representative and leader of the people in the North and that she is, in her way, formidable.  Also that she IS trying to protect them, not just be contrary.  Danerys is not the first Monarch that Sansa has encountered and frankly she's not impressed by titles nor is she a follower.  No disrespect to Tyrion but I thought that Sansa, with her no bullshit style of leadership, would make a fine Hand of the Queen.

Arya/Gendry.  I wasn't as bothered as other people - humans are sexual and children grow up.  I did hope that Maisie didn't feel pressured to add sex to her resume though.   From a creative point of view, I would have liked the blushing virgin to blush just a little bit. I know she's a bad ass but this is her first romance and I would have welcomed just a little softness on her side, that even she has EMOTIONAL needs.  I think Gendry deserved a moment to be the man in a sexual situation, to not again have a woman order his penis to do its job.  HE had something he could give to the rich girl.  She didn't have to take it.

Brienne.  Bout time somebody knighted her.  I just wish she would have a decent man actually interested in her.  Tormund is funny but he is also disrespectful.  It just continues to feed into the ugly girl trope that she should be happy with whatever attention she can get, not that she's worthy of a man who is her equal and who loves her.

Sansa/Theon.  I didn't tear up like I did when she encountered Jon, but it brought back to me that Theon was also a boy she grew up with.  They have a long history and I just got the sense, now that she's safe, has the rest of her family and his worst instincts have been literally neutered, that she just plain missed him - he was the last brother to come home and she is as much his sister as Yara.

Okay but here's where I part ways with most other viewers:  while Jon is now the official heir of House Targaryan, I don't think that means anything.  Last I checked,  I know I'm alone, but I have NO desire to see Jon claim a throne he hasn't wanted or earned.  I wish him happiness but a strong ruler he is not.

I loved that scene as well. Sansa's concerns are completely valid and I am glad she voiced them, she has the welfare of her people at the front and center as it should be. I thought for a moment when Daenerys admitted that she had followed Jon only out of love, WOW, really? you didn't do it because of the real threat that the WW present to the kingdom that you want to rule but basically you dragged your troops and endangered your dragons because you felt in love? Maybe it is a Targaryen trait to make this kind of decisions. Oh well, it works to protect the North and Winterfell so more power to her. 

Also agree with you about Theon and Sansa, Theon has become part of the pack by redemption, he helped Sansa run away from Ramsey, but let's not forget that Sansa also helped Theon by encouraging to regain his identity, they saved each other. That scene was so gut wrenching. 

Honestly I this point if I had to chose I wouldn't choose either Daenerys or Jon, they both need a lot of help because they do not have the right education to rule Westeros. Daenerys has what it needs to rule some cities of Essos because they value raw power above anything but Westeros is different. My hope is that after the battle against the AOTD and Cersei, they both decide that no throne is worth that many lives, that neither of them is ready for the demands that being a ruler requires, they break up Westeros in 7 different kingdoms. form a council , Daenerys can be the Queen of Mereen and take Jon with her.

[Hana Chan]

This was a perfect build up to a battle that we know is going to be devastating. I very much appreciated these quiet moments between characters, which for some of them is going to be a lovely send off when we lose them next week. This was the calm before the coming storm.

The confrontation with Jamie at the very begining was good, but it could have gone deeper as to why he broke his oath and killed Dany's father (because he had a damn justifiable reason). But between Brianne standing up for Jamie, supported by Sansa, there wasn't much that Dany could do about it. Not without looking unreasonable and vengeful in front of people that haven't accepted her as ruler just yet. 

The scenes with Jamie and Tyrion were some of my favorites, because I've always loved their relationship. The love between them was clear - they both acknowledge how flawed they are but understand that much of their frailties are born out of their love for their families and one another. Love can be destructive (which was displayed when Jamie pushed Bran from the window), but it could also be nurturing and sustaining (displayed by the bond between Jamie and Tyrion). 

And I loved the scene between Jamie and Bran in the Godswood. The apology to Bran for harming him was sincere, and it's obvious that Bran is so in tune with his position as TER that he sees what Jamie did as part of the necessary process that he had to undergo in order to reach this point. 

And Bran being the ultimate target of the Night King... not exactly unexpected but still pretty mind blowing.

The coversation between Sansa and Dany was great and it makes sense for Dany to make overtures to try to win Sansa over. But the independence of the north is still a sticking point and the fact that Dany refused to discuss what happens when the battle is over doesn't bode well for Dany's breaking the wheel plan. 

Not going to lie... I'm all for Arya taking control and deciding that the best way to spend the night before a battle where they might all die is getting banged by the hot blacksmith. Because that's what I would want to do. She's not a child anymore, chronologically and certainly not emotionally and seeing this cold assassin indulging in the easy affection she'd always shared with Gendry was pretty satisfying. A girl is going to get her freak on.

And seriously... everyone in Winterfell should be getting laid before the big battle. I'm surprised that we didn't have a full on Winterfell orgy. And while we're at it... they need to start making some babies, because we're going to need to seriously repopulate the north when this is over.

Was so happy to see Theon's arrival and the warm welcome from Sansa. Those two have been through a lot and while I don't have high hope for Theon's long-term survival, they probably would make a good couple. And the drinking party and Brianne's knighting... sigh... absolutely perfect.

And now the big conversation down in the crypts. It was something that probably needed to happen sooner rather than later, but ouch! Dany did not take it at all well. One would think that she would be happy to find out that she wasn't the last Targaryen, but it all boils down for her that she's got competition for the throne that she's laid claim to. And Jon has a greater legitimate claim than she does, which is going to make things very uncomfortable between them for a bit. Could have done without the hole "last male Targaryen heir" because gender is not the reason that his claim supersedes her. Jon would have greater claim even if he was a woman and Dany was a male because Jon is the trueborn child of the crown prince. Dany's place in the hierarchy would always be after Rheagar's children and any children they have. She's going to have to wrap her mind around the fact that not only is she not the only one with claim to the IT based on bloodline, but she doesn't even have the best claim. And Jon would certainly have an easier time getting the support of the North and their allies.

Not sure how i'm going to survive waiting for the big battle and worrying about who we're going to lose. 

[voiceover]

6 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

The fact that so many people were uncomfortable seeing a 22 year old actress have a sex scene makes me all the more glad that they did it. Arya's not a little girl. She is an adult woman who chose to have sex. It's not icky or gross or inappropriate. Women are allowed to have sex and enjoy it. Funny how people were okay with Arya going to assassin school as a child and MURDERING PEOPLE but choosing to have sex the night before she might die is what's not cool.

Eh.  I'm pretty sure it's not the thought of a 22-year-old "allowed to have sex and enjoy it".  See: any barely-popular basic cable show, and probably the entire CW line-up.

I get the impression that people's discomfort (those who are discomfited) dwells in the fact that Maisie grew up on this show, and to many viewers she is the series' Little Sister.  And some are squicked at watching a family member have a booty call.  That's all.  

As re: her vengeful killings not provoking the same reax: not sure that everyone loved that aspect, either, but she's been pursuing vengeance on behalf of her family in a place where vigilante work is the cultural norm.  There's fighting, not fucking, in video games, which on occasion this series resembles.

[GodsBeloved]

7 minutes ago, Timetoread said:

The they I was referring to wasn't the people in the show, it was the people here who watch it.  Let Jon get his own army.  The ones she has pledge allegiance to her, not him.

I'm ok with that. I don't think they should have to accept Jon as their King/leader just because he's a Targaryen. 

[GodsBeloved]

36 minutes ago, One Tough Cookie said:

I think Dany will kill Jon and Sam to keep the secret.

I can't accept this. I just can't!!

[Constantinople]

1 hour ago, LadyChaos said:

I think he was putting it off, I think he didn't want to believe it and was hoping to deny it a little longer.  However, when she found him down there, looking at Lyanna's statue, he had just accepted it as truth.  So, he looked at the woman he loved, and knew that she had a right to know.  Not because he usurped her claim to the throne, but because she wasn't the last of her line, she wasn't alone anymore.  She had family.  Family is something that was always important to Jon, and Dany has told him that she is the last of her line.  For him it was more of a 'We might die tomorrow so I want you to know this because I don't want to share this burden alone and I love you, AND I want you to know that you are not alone'  

Except Jon  never said that, or anything like that.

[Wendy]

10 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

If Daenarys drops the "it is my right, the 7 kingdoms are mine because I am the a Targaryen, the rightful Targaryen" then no she shouldn't just give Jon everything.

If she instead embraces that she is now a usurper, instead of the "rightful" Queen because of her birth then again no she shouldn't hand everything over to Jon.

But if her argument is that it's her right by birth then it's Jon's right by birth as well. Even then I'm not saying she should just give up but it would seem, to me at least, that this birth right thing was only really valid as long as it was her who benefited from it.

Dany's claim to the throne has always been that it was her "birth right" , she has called Robert Baratheon a usurper because he revolted against the Mad King and took the throne. What she fails to mention is that Westeros had lived as 7 independent kingdoms for thousand of years, it was her ancestor Aegon The Conqueror who came to Dragonstone (after they blew up Valyria) and with dragons imposed his rule over each of these kingdoms. The Targaryens were in power only 300 years. 

If now she claims the throne by right of conquest like Robert did, then she will have to admit that Robert was not a usurper, he was a rightful king. This present a problem if she learns that Gendry is the last Baratheon. She better not try something against him or Arya will take care of her for real. 

[taanja]

13 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

nne with her two ersarz suitors eyeballing each other. What an embarrassment of riches. Girl, you could've been the creamy filling in a delicious Jaime and Tormund cookie sandwich.

You go, Arya! Get you some Gendry! Be funny if when the war is over she and Gendry are alive and expecting a baby.

Haha! Best line ever!

Tormund telling his story of killing the giant and sleeping with his wife! ha! Suckling at her breast for 3 months because she thought he was her baby! OMG! I laughed out loud! Giants milk is what made him strong! Then he proceeds to slurp down the fermented goats milk!!!!

Tormund never change!

[DarkRaichu]

12 minutes ago, Timetoread said:

The they I was referring to wasn't the people in the show, it was the people here who watch it.  Let Jon get his own army.  He is not OWED the Throne anymore than she is.  He is just an heir of the Targ house.  He can go look stupid at Dragonstone.  The armies she has pledge allegiance to her, not him.

Also Stannis killed his brother AND his daughter and got nothing for it. Most honorable night did not see Stannis as rightful ANYTHING.  Stannis is not the righteous template even by this show's standards.

IIRC Stannis turned some of Renly's army and I never said that was right, that was just the expectation within the confined of GoT universe.

As for Dany, if she wants to be consistent with her claim via bloodline, she needs to support Jon, again because that was the expectation.

Of course she is free to refuse to support Jon, but that makes her bloodline claim null and void.  To be honest, she should be true with her "breaker of wheel" claim and f*** bloodline.  Do whatever she needs to do to claim the throne after they survive the ice zombie invasion.  Even though there is a great chance she won't have both Jon's love and the Iron Throne.  

[Drogo]

If I ever have a glass of wine in Westeros, I hope Tyrion pours it for me.

*Make that "half a glass."

[GodsBeloved]

8 minutes ago, Wendy said:

I loved that scene as well. Sansa's concerns are completely valid and I am glad she voiced them, she has the welfare of her people at the front and center as it should be. I thought for a moment when Daenerys admitted that she had followed Jon only out of love, WOW, really? you didn't do it because of the real threat that the WW present to the kingdom that you want to rule but basically you dragged your troops and endangered your dragons because you felt in love?

The idea that Daenerys only came because she's in lurve with Jon still doesn't compute for me. As you said the AOTD is a threat to everyone and the more they kill the bigger their army becomes.

Maybe the idea is her dragons can/will wipe out the dead in one fell swoop so it doesn't matter what their number is. If that is the idea, then it computes with me that she came to save as many of her subjects because she has heart eyes for Jon.

[sumiregusa]

28 minutes ago, Timetoread said:

The they I was referring to wasn't the people in the show, it was the people here who watch it.  Let Jon get his own army.  He is not OWED the Throne anymore than she is.  He is just an heir of the Targ house.  He can go look stupid at Dragonstone.  The armies she has pledge allegiance to her, not him.

Also Stannis killed his brother AND his daughter and got nothing for it. Most honorable knight Brienne did not see Stannis as rightful ANYTHING.  Stannis is not the righteous template even by this show's standards.

27 minutes ago, Timetoread said:

The birth right thing was never that valid to begin with, the Targaryans were overthrown.  ANY Targ would need to fight to win it back.   Jon is perfectly welcome to fight for it.  Just not with her stuff.

People aren't being sexist by saying Jon is the rightful heir. It's called primogeniture. Male heirs rule, regardless of age or their place in the line. It has nothing to do with Jon using Dany's "stuff" because ultimately she is deferring to the law. That doesn't mean she has to like it, it just means that's what the law is. Specifically, Rhaegar's children have deference for being in line because he was The Mad King's heir.

In the case with Stannis, being honorable doesn't guarantee you anything or mean anything when it comes to ruling a kingdom. He was the eldest male Baratheon heir so, by the law, it was his crown.

Edited April 22, 2019 by sumiregusa
Added Stannis stuff

[Constantinople]

Rhaegar may not be a rapist, but he's still a jerk for annulling his marriage and bastardizing his children by Elia Martell

By the way, how you get a unilateral annulment, i.e., without notifying your spouse, and what were the grounds?

[DarkRaichu]

1 minute ago, Constantinople said:

Rhaegar may not be a rapist, but he's still a jerk for annulling his marriage and bastardizing his children by Elia Martell

By the way, how you get a unilateral annulment, i.e., without notifying your spouse, and what were the grounds?

I am guessing a special privilege granted to the heir of the throne since his wife could not produce male heir

[Timetoread]

15 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

She's going to have to wrap her mind around the fact that not only is she not the only one with claim to the IT based on bloodline, but she doesn't even have the best claim. And Jon would certainly have an easier time getting the support of the North and their allies.

But can we give her more than 5 seconds to do so?  For the past 7 seasons she's been traversing thousands of miles with one goal in mind.  She has sex with Jon and finds out everything she's done has been invalidated and she's supposed hug him and be his cheerleader immediately.  Why is being human something that is never allowed for her character?

[Wendy]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I didn't really buy the idea that any knight can make anyone else a knight.  If that were the case, how hasn't Ser Bronn of the Blackwater made a fortune selling knighthoods?

I would think it would take at least a Lord or Lady to make a knight.  I sort of thought that was what Catelyn Stark did to Brienne when Brienne swore herself to her and she promised to always give Brienne as place at her hearth and to never ask her to do anything to bring her dishonor.   

LOL, I am not sure that is how it works either. Your point about Bronn makes sense, he would be selling knighthoods. 

The point was that even if it wasn't real, the ceremony and the feelings were real. Brienne leaves in a male dominated world and to have the validation of her peers means the world to her. 

I am a total sucker for female empowerment, it is my weakness I guess. Arya and Sansa coming together as a team, Daenerys and Missandei, Brienne and Sansa, Brienne and Arya, it lifts my spirits. 

They live in such a patriarchal society that they do need to stick together. 

[Timetoread]

8 minutes ago, sumiregusa said:

People aren't being sexist by saying Jon is the rightful heir. It's called primogeniture. Male heirs rule, regardless of age or their place in the line. It has nothing to do with Jon using Dany's "stuff" because ultimately she is deferring to the law. That doesn't mean she has to like it, it just means that what the law is.

Well what a fucked up show this would turn out to be.  8 seasons of being invested in Danerys just for her to become her Uncle's chambermaid/whore because that's all a woman is worth anyway.

[Wendy]

52 minutes ago, One Tough Cookie said:

I think Dany will kill Jon and Sam to keep the secret.

She would have to kill Bran and Howland Reed as well. Add Gendry to that mix. 

I don't see it happening. I think she would find a way to compromise either by marriage or by co-ruling. This can go in two different ways, she either became suspicious and paranoid thinking that these people have known all along and have deceived her purposely to take the throne away from her in which case she probably would want to get rid of them. The other possibility is that she realizes that she doesn't have to have the burden of the Iron Throne by herself and that Jon being a Targaryen means that she is not alone in this world. She would still want to rule. I have little doubt of that, but luckily for her Jon doesn't want to rule so it seems like the perfect solution for both of them. 

[Luckylyn]

There has been so much sexual assault on this show.  I was so happy that Arya had a positive sexual experience on her own terms with a good man who cares for her as much as she cares for him.  That is so much more that others have gotten for their first time.  It’s fascinating that so many people had an easier time watching Arya slit people’s throats than watching her have a love scene.  She’s old enough to kill but not to have sex?

I was surprised that Jon revealed the truth before the battle. I’d assumed he’s wait until after to avoid distractions until the Night King has been dealt with.  Jon has been consistently ruthlessly pragmatic about the war with the Night King.  He really has no personal ambitions and has been totally focused on fighting for the living.   I don’t think he’s given any thought at all to what he would want if he survived, and they won the war against the dead.  When it comes to the threat from the Night King Jon is the best big picture practical strategist.  When it comes to other threats and what happens if they manage to win, it’s Sansa and Dany who are better suited to that bigger picture.  The most peaceful solution to Jon and Dany’s claim to the throne is for them to marry and act as co-rulers.  I don’t think the writers will make it that easy though so I worry about what’s to come.

Sansa has suffered and been under other people’s power for so long.  She has no desire to risk being subjugated again by anyone.  Her determination for Northern independence is a natural outgrowth of her personal desire for independence.  Trust is something that will never come easily for her ever again.

The thing is Dany was also powerless and subjugated to the whims of others that lead to her own suffering.  Sansa and Dany really do have so much in common.  Both want power and independence  after horrible experiences of powerlessness.   

Dany has shown she can adapt and win others over.  She managed that with the Dothraki.  She can do it again, but she’s got to get better at seeing the Northern point of view.   In the past, she was setting people free as part of her conquering.  Westeros is different in that people see her as a foreign conquerer and not a savior.  She is setting no one free this time and is in the position of being viewed as an oppressor.  She says she wants to break the wheel but in so many ways she’s part of the same system of conquering and subjugation.  The only true way to break the wheel would be to let the people pick their leader.  I feel like this show is a big advertisement for why choosing a ruler through birthright or through domination  leads to so much instability and suffering.

I adored Brienne getting her well deserved knighting.  I loved Sansa’s total faith in her.  There is some amusement to Brienne and her two suiters, but I can’t take Tormund seriously.   At first, I was charmed by his crush on her, but he doesn’t seem capable of talking her .  He mostly leers at her, talks about her as if they’re a couple to other people,  and makes awkward comments.  I don’t think he ever asks her questions about herself to get to know her.  He seems to fixate on her as a sexual prize to win and not a person.  He hero worships her without bothering to get to know her.  I have issues with Jaime, but I have no doubt he knows Brienne and cares for her.   He adores her for who she is.  He hero worships her too but sees the human being underneath the heroics.  

Jaime’s conversation with Bran was really interesting.  The person you are now is built on the actions for good or bad you have done.  The good in Jaime now would not be there without the bad that came before is an interesting point of view.  I appreciated Tyrion not letting Jaime get away with claiming Cersei fooled him.  Jaime knew Cersei and loved her knowing she could be a monster.   He shouldn’t get to pretend he didn’t see what she was.  Still when push came to shove Jaime chose the living and abandoned Cersei.  I go back and forth on Jaime.  At times I admire him and at others am disgusted.   That’s why I find him interesting.  

Sansa’s reunion with Theon was beautiful.  It’s hard to remember how much I hated his character years ago.  His redemption has been well done.  Sansa and Theon both understand the trauma of Ramsey and as a result there is a trust between them that needs no words.  

[DrSparkles]

12 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Rhaegar may not be a rapist, but he's still a jerk for annulling his marriage and bastardizing his children by Elia Martell

By the way, how you get a unilateral annulment, i.e., without notifying your spouse, and what were the grounds?

Well, I'll be damned. I never put it together that Elia Martell (wife of Rhaegar) was the sister that Oberyn was so distraught about dying. TY!!!!!!

[TaurusRose]

7 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

The fact that so many people were uncomfortable seeing a 22 year old actress have a sex scene makes me all the more glad that they did it. Arya's not a little girl. She is an adult woman who chose to have sex. It's not icky or gross or inappropriate. Women are allowed to have sex and enjoy it. Funny how people were okay with Arya going to assassin school as a child and MURDERING PEOPLE but choosing to have sex the night before she might die is what's not cool.

All of this.

2 hours ago, Bali said:

No. Peter Dinklage even put out a PSA asking people to stop buying huskies without researching them first. And he reminded them that they are NOT Direwolves. A lot of huskies wound up in shelters.

More proof that a lot of people are idiots.

1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

I'm really glad no one piped up with The Rains of Castamere when Tyrion called for a song.

Me, too.  I've had it with that song.  Never liked it in the first place, just more Lannister arrogance.

51 minutes ago, Timetoread said:

Okay but here's where I part ways with most other viewers:  while Jon is now the official heir of House Targaryan, I don't think that means anything.  Last I checked, House Targaryan had been kicked to the curb by Robert Baratheon - Cersei sits on the throne now on the strength of THAT name.  It would seem Gendry would have the most immediate right to the throne, not Jon, unless he wanted to fight for it.  

Gendry is a bastard.  Bastards are not in line for anything.  And if anyone is unsuitable to rule (because he has had no training for it), it's Gendry.

[Popples]

12 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

I am guessing a special privilege granted to the heir of the throne since his wife could not produce male heir

Elia did have a boy, whose name was also Aegon Targaryen. He was the infant that the Mountain murdered along with his toddler sister.

[Wendy]

31 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

She may very well try, but she won’t succeed. Not in episode three certainly (which is also why we can be assured the Stark’s safety next episode... they didn’t get the closure elements of interaction with each other one last time that so many others did).

If Dany tries to kill Jon and Sam (and Bran) then her endgame is Shadow King... the “Fire” of the Song of Ice (Night King) and Fire (Dany) that Jon will have to overcome as the reluctant but true king (honestly, his reluctance for power over others is one of the surest signs of a True King archetype... they see power as a burden and rule out of duty to their people rather than a desire for power for themselves).

If so, the series is going Super-Jungian* for its conclusion because as I stated about last episode, Jon starting on the outs with the rest of the Starks means the narrative reversal of the season has to be his realignment with them.

The reason I say Super-Jungian is because Arya, Bran and Sansa absolutely embody the archetypes of Warrior (skilled and loyal), Magician (keeper of secret lore) and Lover (good at reading people and social cues) respectively and for the King archetype to be fully realized it must overcome its Shadow by drawing upon the strengths of the Warrior, Magician and Lover (in real life these are all aspects of the same person with the King as full actualization of all aspects in unison, but in fiction you can externalize them into characters of their own).

Put bluntly, if Dany fails her test and proves herself the Shadow King, then Jon needs to reconcile with his family to overcome her and become the True King.

IF she fails the test of character she’s been presented that is.

* Indeed, one can even say the overall narrative is that of the four main Starks growing from the four child archetypes into the four adult archetypes by overcoming various external shadow archetypes.

Can I just mention here that I am getting all hot and bothered by your use of literary lingo? 

Not creepy like Tormund, maybe just subtle like Jaime. 

I admire a person who can write like you do, it wouldn't matter if your opinion was completely opposite of mine. You have a gift! 

[TaurusRose]

6 minutes ago, Timetoread said:

Well what a fucked up show this would turn out to be.  8 seasons of being invested in Danerys just for her to become her Uncle's chambermaid/whore because that's all a woman is worth anyway.

Kind of putting the cart before the horse; also, she is Jon's aunt, so he would be her nephew.  I think we're worrying over things that may or may not happen.  I don't see the scenario you're talking about happening under any circumstance though.

[Timetoread]

1 minute ago, taurusrose said:

All of this.

More proof that a lot of people are idiots.

Me, too.  I've had it with that song.  Never liked it in the first place, just more Lannister arrogance.

Gendry is a bastard.  Bastards are not in line for anything.  And if anyone is unsuitable to rule (because he has had no training for it), it's Gendry.

The only ones who have had any "training" for the role thus far are Cersei (currently on the throne), Sansa (through osmosis), and Dany (Khalesi, Mother of Dragons, Queen of Mereen, blah blah blah).  NONE of the men on this show have had any TRAINING in ruling the kingdoms.  Jon couldn't even keep the raggedy ass Knights Watch for 10 minutes without getting killed by his own people, LOL!

[VCRTracking]

Same.

[Timetoread]

3 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

Kind of putting the cart before the horse; also, she is Jon's aunt, so he would be her nephew.  I think we're worrying over things that may or may not happen.  I don't see the scenario you're talking about happening under any circumstance though.

My bad.  I meant NEPHEW'S chambermaid/whore.

[DarkRaichu]

2 minutes ago, Popples said:

Elia did have a boy, whose name was also Aegon Targaryen. He was the infant that the Mountain murdered along with his toddler sister.

So was this boy born when Rhaegar had his affair with Lyanna?

[Wendy]

25 minutes ago, sumiregusa said:

People aren't being sexist by saying Jon is the rightful heir. It's called primogeniture. Male heirs rule, regardless of age or their place in the line. It has nothing to do with Jon using Dany's "stuff" because ultimately she is deferring to the law. That doesn't mean she has to like it, it just means that's what the law is. Specifically, Rhaegar's children have deference for being in line because he was The Mad King's heir.

In the case with Stannis, being honorable doesn't guarantee you anything or mean anything when it comes to ruling a kingdom. He was the eldest male Baratheon heir so, by the law, it was his crown.

Not only Stannis but I am convinced that Jon was crowned KITN even though he was a bastard just because he was a male, by any of the rules of inheritance it should have been Sansa, the true born daughter but she is a female so I bet it didn't even cross their minds. 

Also this kind on rules are different everywhere, the Dotraki only accept the strongest, no blood line whatsoever. 

Different rules apply, Daenerys wants to rule Westeros and so there are certain rules of inheritance that she needs to accept. 

[Constantinople]

28 minutes ago, sumiregusa said:

People aren't being sexist by saying Jon is the rightful heir. It's called primogeniture. Male heirs rule, regardless of age or their place in the line.

Primogeniture is sexist by definition

[Timetoread]

4 minutes ago, Wendy said:

Not only Stannis but I am convinced that Jon was crowned KITN even though he was a bastard just because he was a male, by any of the rules of inheritance it should have been Sansa, the true born daughter but she is a female so I bet it didn't even cross their minds. 

Also this kind on rules are different everywhere, the Dotraki only accept the strongest, no blood line whatsoever. 

Different rules apply, Daenerys wants to rule Westeros and so there are certain rules of inheritance that she needs to accept. 

No the Dothraki are horrible to their women.  Dany didn't just show strength, she burned the mutha fukka to the ground and walked out UNBURNT (picked up another title) AND she has dragons.  The Dothraki may be sexist but they're not STUPID.  And no, she doesn't need to "accept" the rules of inheritance, that's what she meant by breaking the wheel - where simply having a vagina takes you out of the running.  It could not have been an accident that the strongest characters on this show have been women.

Edited April 22, 2019 by Timetoread

[terrymct]

17 minutes ago, Luckylyn said:

Dany has shown she can adapt and win others over.  She managed that with the Dothraki. 

Her approach might not work this time.  She won over Drogo by learning to be an active participant in sex.  She won over Drogo's hoard by getting pregnant.   She re-won some of his hoard by emerging from fire unscathed with three dragons on her shoulders.   

[Brn2bwild]

54 minutes ago, larapu2000 said:

Everything great about this episode has been mentioned except for Sansa's FIERCE FUCKING OUTFIT.

That's honestly why Dany is loathe to like her.  Girlfriend BRINGS IT.

Did anyone else look at Sansa's necklace and think: "That is one big-ass Ring of Power"?

[Wendy]

25 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

I am guessing a special privilege granted to the heir of the throne since his wife could not produce male heir

Elia had given him a male heir, Aegon. 

Rhaegal might not have been crazy like his father but he was consumed by prophecies and had gotten in his mind that he had to have another child to complete the three headed dragon but Elia's delivery of Aegon was so difficult that she couldn't have any more babies.  There is where Lyanna came into the picture. Lyanna was a willful girl but I often wonder how did she rationalize accepting Rhaegal. By annulling his marriage to Elia he basically made his two children bastards, she enraged Dorne and created a mess only because he wanted a third child. 

Honestly if I was Jon, I would be so upset to find out I was a Targeryan, not only for the history of mental illness that runs in the family but also about the fact that his biological father married his mother and thousands of people died as a result of that union. 

[Timetoread]

4 minutes ago, terrymct said:

Her approach might not work this time.  She won over Drogo by learning to be an active participant in sex.  She won over Drogo's hoard by getting pregnant.   She re-won some of his hoard by emerging from fire unscathed with three dragons on her shoulders.   

Something tells me that is EXACTLY how she'll win over the north.  Actively sexing Jon.  She WILL get pregnant by him - they forshadowed this.  She'll give birth to either a dragon baby (think Shape of Water) or a shadow baby (but a nice smiley one).  The North will love her and everyone will live happily ever after.

Edited April 22, 2019 by Timetoread

[TaurusRose]

3 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

Did anyone else look at Sansa's necklace and think: "That is one big-ass Ring of Power"?

I don't know.  I look at it more like a show of power that isn't needed if you're confident in your power. I am going to give Sansa her props for this episode.  If ST had played her along these lines all along I just might have liked her a little bit.  The writing/direction didn't do her any favors in previous episodes.

[sumiregusa]

10 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Primogeniture is sexist by definition

You'll be hard pressed to find laws from hundreds and thousands of years ago that aren't sexist by today's standards. The point is back then? They weren't viewed that way.

[Drogo]

7 minutes ago, Timetoread said:

Dany didn't just show strength, she burned the mutha fukka to the ground and walked out UNBURNT (picked up another title) AND she has dragons.  

Bolded (mine) is "a show of strength."  She also didn't have any dragons with her in Vaes Dothrak when she won over the whole of the khalasars.

[TaurusRose]

39 minutes ago, Timetoread said:

The only ones who have had any "training" for the role thus far are Cersei (currently on the throne), Sansa (through osmosis), and Dany (Khalesi, Mother of Dragons, Queen of Mereen, blah blah blah).  NONE of the men on this show have had any TRAINING in ruling the kingdoms.  Jon couldn't even keep the raggedy ass Knights Watch for 10 minutes without getting killed by his own people, LOL!

Cersei is a ruthless monster who uses brute force, lies and manipulation to steal a throne.  No training in ruling the people.  She could give a shit about people. She lives and breathes power for its own sake.  Sansa has survivor's knowledge and was raised in a household where she should have seen how to manage a keep by observing her mother.  If she wants to "rule" the North and I don't know that she really does, she can have it.  The only people more fickle, clannish, ignorant and xenophobic might just be the Iron Born.  Daenerys is really the only one who acquired what she has by her own grit.  I don't see any point in responding to the comment about Jon because it ignores everything that happened.  

Edited April 22, 2019 by taurusrose

[Joimiaroxeu]

Quote

A lie by omission is still a lie.  Dany had already picked up on him avoiding her and the comment about Rhaegar raping Lyanna could not go unanswered.  Jon did the right thing.  I guess this is an agree to disagree moment.   

Perhaps. I agree to disagree whether Jon should have waited to tell Dany about his parentage. I don't agree with subtly shading the people who are okay with his waiting until later to tell her. Opinions are not necessarily facts and I think the situation between Jon and Dany is not necessarily black and white.

Quote

Not sure how i'm going to survive waiting for the big battle and worrying about who we're going to lose.  

Which is why I've decided to believe everyone will die. Then I can be even more relieved by the ones who don't. (Except the Night King. I definitely want him to die.)