S02.E12: Sanctuary

[Bort]

Quote

Ed discovers that Moclans aboard The Orville are harboring a secret.

Airdate: Thursday, April 11, 2019

[SimoneS]

Welcome back show, you have been missed! I am loving this continuing Moclan story. I cheered when Bortus told off Klyden. He is a small minded ass who is trying to turn Topa into one. Honestly, I thought that Klyden would have taken Topa away behind Bortus' back so I was glad to see him talking to that little girl at school. That marriage cannot go on like this.

Dolly Parton, the voice of the oppressed! Go Dolly! I cracked up at Ed's reaction to the colony's leader starting to quote the lyrics and the admiral's perplexed reaction. It was genius having the 9 to 5 accompany the fight. I was so glad when Bortus was able to save that little girl when he couldn't save his own.

The politics of the Union was interesting. At least, the compromise saved the colony. Once others on Moclus hear about it, people will grab their kids and flee their on their own which will not violate the agreeement.

Marina Sirtis! Welcome to Gene Rodenberry's Star Trek legacy, Deanna Troi!

Edited April 12, 2019 by SimoneS

[Bort]

Klyden is a dick. But at least there's hope for Topa.

The use of 9 to 5 was entertaining just in its inclusion, but using it as the backdrop for the fight scenes at Sanctuary was great. Especially when they took the trouble to sync the scenes to the lyrics about "your ship will come in/the tide's gonna turn and it's all gonna roll you away" right when The Orville flies up and does a roll.

[marinw]

Of cource any Moclan Captain isn't going to respect Kelly or any other female officer.

The Secret Society was described as "all female". But the refugees could have children, and some of those kids could be male.

Edited April 12, 2019 by marinw

[Chaos Theory]

Moclan stories are not usually my favorites but this was fun.  Dolly Parton as a revolutionary figure.  I can buy that.  Plus a multiple scene fight to 9 to 5 was all kinds of epic.   

I actually expected an end to Bortus and Klyden's marriage because like Bortus choosing Union ethics over Moclan ethics the breakup of their marriage looks like it is coming,  

Edited April 12, 2019 by Chaos Theory

[Mr. Sparkle]

5 minutes ago, kariyaki said:

Klyden is a dick. But at least there's hope for Topa.

I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt before, but I really kind of hated him this episode. 

That said, great episode. I love that this whole Bortus/Topa story is continuing and has implications beyond their family. 

[EllenB]

I love Bortus-heavy episodes.  Now besides seeing a Worf-like character, there are hints of Garek from DS9.  I was getting way too emotionally invested in this episode.

[phalange]

This one moved into my top three, I think, and is a perfect sequel to About a Girl. I thought for sure Topa would find out about his own history, but I imagine it'll come up soon. Bortus and Klyden's marriage is not healthy at all, and Bortus was right to call him out, both for what he told Topa and how he ignores women's presence. The last scene of Bortus watching Topa playing nicely with the girls might be the first time he's really smiled. 

Haveena is a great character and I'm glad she escaped from Moclus and was basically running an Underground Railroad operation to save the girls. It's unfortunate Moclus is aware of it now, but as she said, it will inspire others to do the same. I'm sure this episode was filmed awhile ago so it's likely a coincidence, but I love Haveena using 9 to 5 as a protest/empowerment anthem in light of Elizabeth Warren using the song when she announced her presidential campaign. The fight scene set to the song is one of, if not the best scene this show has done. Kelly and Talla both risking their careers to stand up for other women was perfect. 

Ed's defense to the Union Admirals was commendable, and also reflective of reality in that when there's an issue directly affecting women, four out of the five people at the table are men. 

Kudos once again to the CGI team, because that nebula was gorgeous. Also to the make-up team for all the new alien species at the council meeting; we haven't seen most of them before. 

Edited April 12, 2019 by phalange

[SimoneS]

How long can Bortus stick it out in that marriage? I noticed that Klyden didn't greet Kelly, but didn't realize that it was because of his misogyny or know that he stayed in their quarters most of the time. I felt Kelly's embarrassment sitting there as Bortus was telling off Klyden, but he obviously had been keeping it in for a long time and just exploded.

Ed isn't going to reprimand Bortus, but his personal drama sure has put the Orville in some dangerous situations.

Edited April 12, 2019 by SimoneS

[SimoneS]

2 minutes ago, phalange said:

Kudos once again to the CGI team, because that nebula was gorgeous. Also to the make-up team for all the new alien species at the council meeting; we haven't seen most of them before. 

The CGI has been really good for a network tv show. The nebula and the new alien species were well done. It must have cost a good chunk of the budget.

[tennisgurl]

I think that Bortus has never smiled as much as he did when he saw Topa happily playing with the little girl. There could still be hope for the Moclans one day! Bortus even got to save a little girl the way he didnt get to save Topa from the surgery!

Enjoyed the continuation of Bortus and his family issues, and how that feeds into his culture and vice versa. If Klyden cant get his considerable head out of his ass soon, I dont know how much longer their marriage can really last. 

The politics of the Union was really interesting, and I liked that there was no real easy answer. Also it was really cool seeing so many aliens there, the GCI was really great all around. 

The use of 9 to 5 as a feminist anthem was an inspiring choice, and was even better as background for a fight scene. Go Dolly indeed. I do think she would be very proud.

Edited April 12, 2019 by tennisgurl

[Danielg342]

I suppose I should give Seth McFarlane credit that this story- which could have ended with a neat tie and a bow- didn't exactly end all that neatly, but it still ended a little too neatly for my liking.

You'd think, if the world was written by Seth, that all that's needed is a few strongly-worded speeches and a strange revolutionary (who's not actually all that strange if you got to know her) and you can still secure a quasi-solution that solves the immediate problem while still maintaining the status quo.

If only situations like this could be this easy. I mean, we're talking about the Moclans having to change something that's culturally ingrained within them for centuries- a few speeches ain't changing a thing.

Even if we allow that timing meant this episode needed to be self-contained, there still are other solutions that would have made for a more satisfying conclusion than what we got.

The easiest? Put Moclus under threat and have the women be the ones who save it, either because Moclan women are far better than the men at negotiating or because recruiting the Moclan women warriors give the Moclans enough numbers to neutralize the threat.

You have a solution that doesn't require the Moclans to make immediate changes but you have a solution that forces the Moclans to actually see the value of having women.

It also gives the Moclan women agency, which this episode sorely lacked. Sure, Haveena talked a lot...but the decisions were still left to the men in this episode. Not exactly great optics for an episode that was all about female empowerment.

Truth is, this episode just points to Seth's ultimate faults as a writer. He's great at characters, he's great at continuity, he's great at understanding stories require conflict...he pretty much checks off the boxes of story-writing fundamentals that many in Hollywood don't check off in their work.

Problem is, the stories lack depth, or, more specifically, a deeper exploration of the many different angles a story can take. Get a simple, character-driven story like Gordon dating the 2015 woman or Bortus' peeing ceremony and Seth can really work magic.

...but then you get a story like this, which isn't so simple and has so many different angles and viewpoints and Seth winds up getting lost in the details. He tries too hard making the story easy to digest that he'll either handwave or outright ignore the wider complexities that surround the issue that he's created, resulting in a conclusion that leaves way too much to be desired.

One thing I did particularly enjoy in this episode was all the star power in the Admirals' council. Credit to Seth to get Ted Danson, Ron Canada, Kelly Hu and Victor Garber all in the same room...my mind was blown. They all did pretty well too.

Here's what I will conclude- this story wasn't necessarily a bad idea. I think it worked much better than the rather heavy-handed "Deflectors" but, like that episode, if we had two-parter- or an arc- where we could better expand on the complexities the story would offer and give all the angles their proper treatment.

There is a good story here- it just needed the time to develop it.

[dwmarch]

There were some interesting parallels to Star Trek: Insurrection here beyond the presence of F. Murray Abraham. However, speaking of him, I was under the impression he did not enjoy his role in the film. I could be thinking of Malcolm McDowell in Generations though. For Insurrection parallels, we have a small colony in a nebula, hiding from the galaxy to protect a secret. We have a dogfight between the smaller vessel of the good guys versus the bruiser cruiser of the bad guys. The village on the planet was similar to the Baku village, very rustic and old-fashioned looking. The Son'a wanting revenge on the Baku is similar to how the male Moclans want to enslave the female Moclans. There is even a scene with two characters on a shuttle doing an anachronistic musical number.

Bury Tony Todd under a pound of latex headgear all you want, you can't bury that booming voice! Excellent choice to play an angry Moclan leader. I bet Tony Todd could read the phone book and make each number sound absolutely terrifying.

Marina Sirtis!

One of the Union background aliens was wearing a Romulan costume from Star Trek: Nemesis. It had a checkerboard pattern on it, very distinct. There is an article at Memory Alpha that shows it.

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, Superclam said:

4 hours ago, kariyaki said:

Klyden is a dick. But at least there's hope for Topa.

I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt before, but I really kind of hated him this episode. 

Wasn't Klyden born female? If I'm remembering this correctly, I expect a future episode will deal with Klyden's self-loathing as a metaphor for powerful men who are in the closet and persecute the LGBT community. 
  
  
  

4 hours ago, phalange said:

I thought for sure Topa would find out about his own history, but I imagine it'll come up soon.

I kind of hope he never finds out--but maybe he already has off screen before that last scene?  
  
  

4 hours ago, phalange said:

The last scene of Bortus watching Topa playing nicely with the girls might be the first time he's really smiled. 

I was thinking it was the first time we had seen any Moclan smile. Yes? No?
  
  
  

4 hours ago, phalange said:

I'm sure this episode was filmed awhile ago so it's likely a coincidence, but I love Haveena using 9 to 5 as a protest/empowerment anthem in light of Elizabeth Warren using the song when she announced her presidential campaign.

That's pretty frickin' awesome. Thanks for pointing it out, @phalange. I had no idea.
Of course, as an academic librarian, I just had to verify 😉 (wbur.org/news/2019/03/09/campaign-songs-elizabeth-warren)

4 hours ago, phalange said:

Kelly and Talla both risking their careers to stand up for other women was perfect. 

 Yes, and it somehow escaped me that it was women standing up for women--I guess because Bortus laid his career on the line too.
But as a woman myself who put 3 daughters through college as a single parent without child support, I probably should have identified with Kelly and Talla making a sacrifice.
I'm not sure what that says about me--maybe that it didn't feel like a sacrifice--it was just what you do.
  
  

4 hours ago, phalange said:

The fight scene set to the song is one of, if not the best scene this show has done. 

Yes, I agree that also using "9-5" as the song for the fight scene was great, but the scene was confusing. I don't generally pay attention to fight scenes unless some particularly great choreography catches my eye, but in this instance, I couldn't stop thinking about how IRL, the well-armed male Moclans would have just blasted the females (and Kelly and Bortus) to smithereens before the council voted.
I wonder if the Show considered having this happen (but, of course, with Kelly and Bortus surviving) with the Moclans then being forced by the council to repopulate the planet with their girl children for the next century. 
Another issue with the fight scene that kept bugging me was that Bortus should have been an easy target for the female Moclans who wouldn't know what team he was fighting for. (No pun intended.)

Anyway, I like to think Dolly Parton was likely elated to have her song used in this episode as more than just a grace note.

Edited April 12, 2019 by shapeshifter

[redpencil]

The Dolly Parton fight scene was maybe my favorite thing to every happen on this show. The second the music kicked in I was grinning like a fool the rest of the scene.

[HunterHunted]

Moclus doesn't only have an issue with women; they also have an issue with male Moclans who are bisexual or heterosexual like Bortus' ex. I'd hate to think what they'd do if a Moclan male who was born male wanted to transition to female. And through all of this Klyden has been the worst. I actually wonder if the Underground Railroad is gone. There had to be Moclan males assisting them. Some of these men might have siblings, wives, and children on the planet.

The actual solution is to make it an Earth/Union protectorate or territory for 50 years or so because it does have strategic defensive value for the Union. They actually cannot afford to ignore that they might need that nebula in the upcoming fight with the Kaylons. And if the Union is too reliant on Moclus for weapons, the Union now has a territory with thousands of Moclans and it's hidden.

Rena Owen who plays Haveena is also Helen on Siren. 

[thuganomics85]

I wonder how much this episode cost with all of the CGI battle scenes, regular CGI moments, the rights to "9 to 5", and that massive special guest actor list!  They went all out on this one with all of the main admirals, the return of Heveena, F. Murray Abraham (actually forgot he was in Star Trek: Insurrection.  Then again, I barely remember Star Trek: Insurrection...), Marina Sirtis (Troi!), and the always welcomed Tony Todd as a Moclan.  And it was all directed by good old Riker himself, Jonathan Frakes!

Overall, I enjoyed the episode, despite it being Moclan heavy again, and the continuations over how backwards they are.  But I'm glad that there are female Moclans actually out there, and hopefully they will continue to grow and thrive, while the old guard dies out.  Glad that Bortus remains an ally in his own way, and even Topa seems to be slowly going in the same situation.  Klyden though is really going to be an issue.  Chad L. Coleman is doing a splendid job at showing how twisted he has become due to his bigotry and refusal to adapt with the times, but I really don't think Klyden is ever going to change, and I wonder how much longer can Bortus keep this marriage together before is somehow gets worse than a divorce (since we know that a divorce in Moclan culture means stabbing your partner!)

Like seeing more of the Union structure and how it's basically like the U.N. with aliens.  Also liked the glimpse into the admirals and how it looks like Halsey is the highest ranking one, judging from how he was always sitting in the middle during the scenes, and the way he spoke to the rest of him.  I mean, hey, who wouldn't follow Victor Garber, right?!

[AnimeMania]

Like the first half and hated the second half. The second half was just a rehash of "All the World Is Birthday Cake", Bortus and Kelly whip out their guns and shoot down 20 armed enemies. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't just reuse that footage to save money on the episode. If I was writing the episode, I would of just had Bortus and Kelly disable or blow up the Moclan shuttles since the Moclans were not trying to harm the planets inhabitants, just round them up to take them back to Moclan for reassignment surgery. I guess a huge gun battle/fight scene is much better television than a more peaceful solution.

[cambridgeguy]

Good job with coming up with a compromise that made sense and wasn't a complete copout. I'm sure there would be some who'd climb on a soapbox and shout that a half-measure is just as bad as nothing at all while others would climb on their own soapbox and sneer that the moral high ground isn't much of a comfort if you're dead because a critical alliance fell apart just to save a small colony.  The best solution is the one that leaves both sides kind of pissed but doesn't break them.

[SimoneS]

I loved the diverse admirals' council with talented actors lVictor Garber, Ted Danson, Kelly Hu, and Ron Canada, but it made me wonder about Earth's politics and the Union. Shouldn't elected politicians be making these decisions not soldiers? I always thought this was one of odd things in Star Trek.

3 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

They went all out on this one with all of the main admirals, the return of Heveena, F. Murray Abraham (actually forgot he was in Star Trek: Insurrection.  Then again, I barely remember Star Trek: Insurrection...), Marina Sirtis (Troi!), and the always welcomed Tony Todd as a Moclan.  And it was all directed by good old Riker himself, Jonathan Frakes

I was just reading about the strong Next Generation connection to this episode along with the talented guest stars. I didn't realize that Seth had hired so many Next Gen writers. It actually explains why the show has the strong underlying Star Trek themes.

https://trekmovie.com/2019/04/10/interview-jonathan-frakes-on-casting-marina-sirtis-and-what-the-orville-and-star-trek-discovery-share/

Edited April 12, 2019 by SimoneS

[marinw]

6 hours ago, dwmarch said:

Bury Tony Todd under a pound of latex headgear all you want, you can't bury that booming voice!

I knew he was one of the Moclans, I just wasn't sure which one. And Marina! And Jonathan Frakes is getting a lot of work between The Orville and STD.

The Council reminded me of the End of Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home. I love it when aliens look alien.

Edited April 12, 2019 by marinw

[Chaos Theory]

I wonder if anyone had told Dolly Parton she is a revolutionary folk hero on a science fiction show.  

[benteen]

Really enjoyed this episode.  It's nice to see the payoff from some of the recent Moclan stories.  I think my initial response to hearing a Moclan story is to groan but then end up really enjoying it.  I am a big fan of Bortus though so whenever he's the focus, it's an enjoyable episode.

I think Seth tries way too hard to make the storylines relevant and be political.  I was glad to see the Union FINALLY back him here.  The Union seems to sell out their people at the drop of a hat but Ed hit them with the right argument.  If you're not willing to defend this planet, just why the hell are you even around?

Cool seeing all the admirals together in this episode and liked how Admiral Spy Daddy backed up Ed and helped resolved the situation.

I imagine there are males in the colony other than the two characters that we see despite being a female colony.

Nice to see Marina Sirtis but I was more excited to see (and hear) Tony Todd.  Another great Star Trek veteran and the perfect choice to play the Moclan representative.

Fantastic FX as always and I liked the wide range of alien species we saw at the Council meeting.  Something you wouldn't always see on Star Trek though I can think of one example, the aforementioned Star Trek IV The Voyage Home being among them.  I liked the Council setting.

It's interesting how they are using Isaac.  He's seen on the bridge and doing his job but there's no interaction with him amongst the crew.  It's all business and that's clearly intentional on the show's part and logical.

Edited April 12, 2019 by benteen

[Jack Kerouac]

5 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Overall, I enjoyed the episode, despite it being Moclan heavy again, and the continuations over how backwards they are.

The Moclans never really made sense to me. There are 'only' males and males can procreate with each other, but there are females as well? Can they procreate with each other? If not, why do the females even exists, in an evolutionary sense?

It would seem to me that if one sex can procreate with other members of that sex, there is no evolutionary need for the other sex.

Was there more gender parity on Moclus in the past and then something happened? It really needs to be explained, because as of now, it makes no sense.

You know what else doesn't make sense? Two Union officers managed to basically take out an entire squad of Moclans with absolutely no trouble at all. That was a tad ridiculous.

The use of Dolly, however, was awesome.

[Bort]

1 hour ago, Chaos Theory said:

I wonder if anyone had told Dolly Parton she is a revolutionary folk hero on a science fiction show.  

Dolly owns the rights to all her music, so she's the one who had to agree to let them use the song. I'm sure she knows.

[Ubiquitous]

• I couldn't figure out why the teacher sounded familiar, then I questioned whether it was Marina Sirtis until I saw the name in the credits. Cool!
• If someone isn't careful, there's going to be stabbing onboard!
• I must have missed the ep with the female leader but I laughed at her adopting 9 to 5 as their theme song and them playing it during the battle at the end was brilliant!
• I am glad the solution didn't tie everyone up in a nice little package. Things rarely do work out that way.

[Driad]

35 minutes ago, Jack Kerouac said:

The Moclans never really made sense to me. There are 'only' males and males can procreate with each other, but there are females as well? Can they procreate with each other? If not, why do the females even exists, in an evolutionary sense?

Exactly. I would have enjoyed this more if I understood Moclan genders. Apparently we are supposed to equate "male" with those who toe the Moclan line, and "female" with those who do not, but that comparison does not fit well.

[benteen]

It's noted that there are more female births than the Moclan government has let on.  Shouldn't the population know that then?  Or do they all just somehow remained tight-lipped about it.  I could buy that to an extent...they don't want the truth about their kids to be reveled.  But everyone keeping tight-lipped about that is not believable.

I didn't realize the Union leader was F. Murray Abraham.

Edited April 12, 2019 by benteen

[ACW]

51 minutes ago, Jack Kerouac said:

You know what else doesn't make sense? Two Union officers managed to basically take out an entire squad of Moclans with absolutely no trouble at all. That was a tad ridiculous.

Well, the female Moclans fought as well, both with their own handful of guns and with guns they took from downed opponents.  And with bare hands.  And with crockery. 🙄

I think we can assume that all or most of the guns involved were set to "stun", since the Moclans were specifically trying to capture the rebels (otherwise, they could have just bombarded them from orbit).

It did bother me a bit that the women didn't seem to start really fighting until Our Heroes showed up; maybe only the leader's bodyguards had weapons (and we saw they were hiding in a hut).

[tv-talk]

1 hour ago, Jack Kerouac said:

You know what else doesn't make sense? Two Union officers managed to basically take out an entire squad of Moclans with absolutely no trouble at all. That was a tad ridiculous.

Yeah I really dislike that and it's a feature of every ST series as well. What is the purpose of having these NFL linebackers from warlike cultures (Moclans/Klingons/etc) who then cannot beat humans in hand-to-hand combat? Then they always have to pile it on by having a human woman able to knock down these aliens with a swift kick or punch. Remember the boxing scene where Bortus was knocked back 30' thru the ring ropes and into the ship's hull? That would have killed any human and he got up and walked away. Or when that hulking Moclan towered over Ed and told him "Capt, do you realize you are not very sturdy" or something like that? The fight scenes are bad imo, would much, much prefer Kelly and Bortus outsmarting the Moclans.

 Overall I like EVERY bortus episode, he's become by far my fav character but I could without the extended fight scene and am not a huge fan of the Moclan delegation basically just screaming in outrage all the time when we see them.

Of note, looks like Isaac is now basically a tool that the humans use, basically a super-computer they query and give orders too. Gone are all "his" observations about humans, emotions, etc. That's great because you know NO ONE wants to listen to a word of that now. He's just a machine in the background. Very interesting tho I'd have really like a scene where Ed and the command officers discussed it.

Edited April 12, 2019 by tv-talk

[jmonique]

So, whatever happened to Lt. Commander LaMarr?

Also, if Bortus hadn't told his child, who was obviously way too young to keep the secret, this entire episode wouldn't have happened. It was irresponsible.

[AnimeMania]

12 hours ago, phalange said:

The last scene of Bortus watching Topa playing nicely with the girls might be the first time he's really smiled.

I am sure Bortus had a huge grin on his face during the Moclan porno episode, but I am too lazy to check.

[ACW]

1 hour ago, Jack Kerouac said:

It would seem to me that if one sex can procreate with other members of that sex, there is no evolutionary need for the other sex.

Was there more gender parity on Moclus in the past and then something happened? It really needs to be explained, because as of now, it makes no sense.

We do have species on Earth where the females can reproduce both with and without males, depending on circumstances.  Though I agree that that's not quite the same thing.

Until the show tells us otherwise, my assumption is that the Moclans evolved with two reproductive genders, like (apparently) most sentient species; but at some point, they deliberately altered themselves to allow males to reproduce with males (or maybe some meddlesome aliens altered them). 

This was presumably because whoever instigated the process considered females inferior, though there are other possibilities (e.g., some plague wiped out all the female Moclans, and what started as a desperate attempt to saved their species turned into a self-reinforcing "no girls allowed" club; or maybe some mad-scientist female Moclan geneticist decided it was time for males to do their share of the child-bearing, and things got out of control.)

[eejm]

I loved the look on Heveena’s face when “9 to 5” came on.  Just wait until you hear “Jolene,” Heveena.

[The Kings Foot]

12 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

Even if we allow that timing meant this episode needed to be self-contained, there still are other solutions that would have made for a more satisfying conclusion than what we got.

The easiest? Put Moclus under threat and have the women be the ones who save it, either because Moclan women are far better than the men at negotiating or because recruiting the Moclan women warriors give the Moclans enough numbers to neutralize the threat.

You have a solution that doesn't require the Moclans to make immediate changes but you have a solution that forces the Moclans to actually see the value of having women.

It also gives the Moclan women agency, which this episode sorely lacked. Sure, Haveena talked a lot...but the decisions were still left to the men in this episode. Not exactly great optics for an episode that was all about female empowerment.

Unfortunately you've fallen into a trap. If a person only has value because they're useful to you, what happens to  people when they arent useful ?

Also I  find calls for more agency unrealistic.  Oppressed minorities dont  have agency. Thats why they're oppressed.   Would you say the emancipation of slaves lacked agency because it was done by white abolitionists  or liberation of the concentration camp because it was done by non Jews ?

Edited April 12, 2019 by The Kings Foot

[tv-talk]

1 minute ago, The Kings Foot said:

Also I  find calls for more agency unrealistic.  Oppressed minorities dont  have agency. Thats why they're oppressed.   Would you say the emancipation of slaves lacked agency because it was done by white abolitionists  or liberation of the concentration camp because it was done by non Jews ?

Well, there were many, many instances of slaves violently rebelling when they had access to weapons- so rather than expect it it's historical fact. As far as this episode, the Moclan women were initially portrayed as warrior-tough when they captured Kelly and Bortus...however then they were cowering in fear and completely disorganized when being rounded up, until the Union officers rallied them. Why werent the repelling the Moclan men on their own? They seemed to be organized in military fashion earlier in the episode. A better script would have had the Moclan women fighting off attempts to non-lethally subdue them and the high tension being the Moclan captain saying he was going to send additional troops to overwhelm and eradicate them as they would not come peacefully. Kelly and Bortus saving them was too Union-centric for me. 

[The Kings Foot]

11 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

Well, there were many, many instances of slaves violently rebelling when they had access to weapons- so rather than expect it it's historical fact. 

And how many slave rebellions succeeded ? There Haiti and thats it.  The best a slave uprising could hope for was to run away or die.

As for the Moclan women being disorganized and in in fear , Well they are all of them  inexperienced civilians facing an actual military.  Consider if any of those warrior women have even been in combat before.

Edited April 12, 2019 by The Kings Foot

[Shimmergloom]

1 hour ago, benteen said:

It's noted that there are more female births than the Moclan government has let on.  Shouldn't the population know that then?  Or do they all just somehow remained tight-lipped about it.  I could buy that to an extent...they don't want the truth about their kids to be reveled.  But everyone keeping tight-lipped about that is not believable.

I didn't realize the Union leader was F. Murray Abraham.

When they say many more they mean many more than the 1 in a generation lie that is told by the government.  But that could still mean there are so few that it is easy to cover up.  For example current earth birthrates are something like 131,400,000 per year so if you say a generation is like every 20 years that's 2.6 billion born per generation.  So Moclan was claiming that only 1 female birth was the average per 2.6 billion.  But let's say it was .0001% of births, that's around 262,800 per generation or around 13,000 per year.  That's still very easy to cover up, while being far greater than just 1.

The female Moclan colony was said to have just 6,000 inhabitants and that almost all female births undergo the forced gender surgery.  So maybe 1% make it to the colony per generation?  Or around 2600 make it per 20 years. 

[Bort]

I'm wondering if Bortus is sticking out this marriage with Klyden just for Topa. Because if they were to separate/divorce (whether via stabbing or whatever), Klyden would leave the ship and, as he's Topa's primary caregiver, would likely take the child back to Moclan where he would grow up with the consensus ideals. As we saw, Topa being integrated with humans is already having an affect where he's learning to socialize with females as equals. Bortus may stick out this marriage to the bitter end just to keep Topa on the ship.

[Commando Cody]

I liked the episode. However, I was disappointed in the fight scene at the end. When the crew of the Orville arrived on the planet, they were greeted by heavily armed women. I thought they would have put up more of a fight when the Male Moclans arrived, but there was basically none. 

I did think that Bortus was going to come back to empty quarters, but it's good that Clyden is bending a little. I'm kind of surprised that those two are still together. I thought his shenanigans in an earlier episode regarding another Moclan would be the end of the marriage. 

[tv-talk]

23 minutes ago, The Kings Foot said:

And how many slave rebellions succeeded ? There Haiti and thats it.  The best a slave uprising could hope for was to run away or die.

So what? That's not the point at all. The point is slaves did in fact revolt against and kill their opressors many, many times- despite the overwhelming odds and fact said revolts always ended up failing. They kept doing it. Meanwhile the Moclan women are portrayed, despite being fully armed themselves and numbering in the thousands, as needing 2 Union officers to show up and save them from what looked like at most a dozen Moclan men.

Edited April 12, 2019 by tv-talk

[iMonrey]

Wow this episode was a real star-studded one. F. Murray Abraham, Ted Danson, Tony Todd - have we seen Marina Sirtis before? I have to say, seeing her looking so old made me feel so very old myself. (She still looks good, she just looks so much older than I remember her.) Seemed like kind of a small part for such a significant guest star, but I noticed Jonathan Frakes directed this episode, so maybe he talked her into it.

[Chaos Theory]

1 hour ago, benteen said:

It's noted that there are more female births than the Moclan government has let on.  Shouldn't the population know that then?  Or do they all just somehow remained tight-lipped about it.  I could buy that to an extent...they don't want the truth about their kids to be reveled.  But everyone keeping tight-lipped about that is not believable.

Having a female child would more then likely be a source of shame.  I am guessing that Kylden didn’t have an easy life knowing what he was.  It probably breeds a lot of true believers.   It makes sense that he would teach his own son who was born a girl to be the same kind of true believer.  It is Bortus who has a more even view and actually values females like Kelly.   I don’t really need the Moclans culture to make complete sense.  It makes enough sense to be a fairly interesting story about allowing people to be who they are and that is all I ever needed or to be.

[The Kings Foot]

18 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

So what? That's not the point at all. The point is slaves did in fact revolt against and kill their opressors many, many times- despite the overwhelming odds and fact said revolts always ended up failing. They kept doing it. Meanwhile the Moclan women are portrayed, despite being fully armed themselves and numbering in the thousands, as needing 2 Union officers to show up and save them from what looked like at most a dozen Moclan men.

So they were failing just like most slave revolts did when the actual military showed up ?

What does fully armed mean in this context ?  How many women are armed ? They arent manufacturing weaponry so theyre armed with whatever they smuggle in.   Who trained them? Whatever training they had would've been ad hoc.  And once again they'll have zero experience in actual combat.

Edited April 12, 2019 by The Kings Foot

[SimoneS]

12 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Wow this episode was a real star-studded one. F. Murray Abraham, Ted Danson, Tony Todd - have we seen Marina Sirtis before? I have to say, seeing her looking so old made me feel so very old myself. (She still looks good, she just looks so much older than I remember her.) Seemed like kind of a small part for such a significant guest star, but I noticed Jonathan Frakes directed this episode, so maybe he talked her into it.

Check out the interview with Frakes that I linked to above. He asked her to take the role. I think Seth wanted something else, maybe bigger for her. We might see more of her as Topa's teacher.

[tv-talk]

6 minutes ago, The Kings Foot said:

And once again they'll have zero experience in actual combat.

Once again, that is not the point. The point is fighting back vs being helpless. The show portrayed the Moclan women as needing Bortus and Kelly to rally them rather than having a fighting spirit of their own. Even worse, if the Moclan women were overmatched due to be outgunned, how was 2 more rifles going to make a difference? Oh that's right, Kelly is a Union officer so at 135 pounds she can take down 6'7" 290 pound Moclan soldiers with one punch while shooting 6 armed opponents before even one can get a shot off- comes in handy. That always seems to be the case in ST too, as I said above.

[Commando Cody]

I kind of wonder if they are setting Bortus up with that female he saved/ran into on the planet. She looked young, but the way Moclans age, she could be older next season. Bortus's kid, Topa, has aged rapidly. 

I think having the females defend their own planet would have made a bigger impact. It made them look weak and if they had defeated the males themselves, some might begin to change their thinking about women and the need for corrective surgery. 

[Danielg342]

1 hour ago, The Kings Foot said:

Unfortunately you've fallen into a trap. If a person only has value because they're useful to you, what happens to  people when they arent useful ?

Also I  find calls for more agency unrealistic.  Oppressed minorities dont  have agency. Thats why they're oppressed.   Would you say the emancipation of slaves lacked agency because it was done by white abolitionists  or liberation of the concentration camp because it was done by non Jews ?

First of all, there are plenty of instances in history where the oppressed managed to overcome their oppressors on their own. The Chaldeans did it to the Assyrians in the 7th century BC and a century later the one who would later become Cyrus the Great successfully rebelled against the Medes and, in turn, established arguably the world's greatest empire in the ancient world, Achamenid Persia.

Second of all, Touissant L'Overture's rebellion was so successful that he caused Napoleon to say "screw this" to North America because it just wasn't worth it anymore. Basically, without Touissant, you don't have a Louisiana Purchase, and no doubt Touissant inspired a lot of Southern slaves as well.

Third of all, plenty of slaves escaped the South and fought for the Union, many of them bravely. So the slaves did have a hand, at least, in securing their freedom.

More importantly, though, without those slave revolts (and thus a chance to establish discord in the South and turn the world against the Confederation), Abraham Lincoln would not have seen the value of setting the slaves free. People forget that the Emancipation Proclamation was a political move- Lincoln only enacted it to help his cause.

I won't stop there, though. One of the main reasons why women got into the workforce was because after World War One there were not enough men to fill vacant positions. Women were hired out of necessity, but, because they were hired, the idea of women working eventually didn't become so foreign to our culture.

That's the heart of the matter- if you want to convince someone to change, they need to see the value in making that change. It's not enough to tell them to change- they need a reason why.

This is ultimately what the Moclan men need- a reason to keep their women as women.

I was thinking it would have been interesting if a Kaylon vessel attacked a Moclan ship and only stopped the assault once they saw that the Moclan women were actually people the Kaylons could respect. It'd be a great commentary on one of the reasons why there are men who are afraid of women- because those men are afraid of being "shown up" by the women.

[The Kings Foot]

4 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

Once again, that is not the point. The point is fighting back vs being helpless. The show portrayed the Moclan women as needing Bortus and Kelly to rally them rather than having a fighting spirit of their own. Even worse, if the Moclan women were overmatched due to be outgunned, how was 2 more rifles going to make a difference? Oh that's right, Kelly is a Union officer so at 135 pounds she can take down 6'7" 290 pound Moclan soldiers with one punch while shooting 6 armed opponents before even one can get a shot off- comes in handy. That always seems to be the case in ST too, as I said above.

Query . Why should they have fighting spirit at all ?  Running and hiding is as valid a response as fighting back.  Fight or Flight after all.  Thats why we have boot camp to recondition people's  instinctual responses to run away or freeze up. 

Its not having two more rifles that makes the difference. Its having a disciplined person  to rally behind.   Yes I agree Kelly was a bit overpowered.  But I find the calls for a successful physical resistance  to actually be imposing masculine ideals  of heroism  on them. 

(Also a minor point from previously . Since the Moclans sent  4 shuttles we can assume a larger force than a dozen Moclan soldiers. )

[The Kings Foot]

9 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

That's the heart of the matter- if you want to convince someone to change, they need to see the value in making that change. It's not enough to tell them to change- they need a reason why.

This is ultimately what the Moclan men need- a reason to keep their women as women.

I was thinking it would have been interesting if a Kaylon vessel attacked a Moclan ship and only stopped the assault once they saw that the Moclan women were actually people the Kaylons could respect. It'd be a great commentary on one of the reasons why there are men who are afraid of women- because those men are afraid of being "shown up" by the women.

So follow your own line of reasoning. If there is a group of people who are not useful to me.  Am I then free to oppress them ?

There is a reason why  various Bills of Rights  all start with "Everyone is equal".  Ie just by existing you have rights.  If people had to prove thier  value in order to have rights we'd be living in a very different society. 

Edited April 12, 2019 by The Kings Foot