S08.E15: Finale Reunion

[gonecrackers]

I don't think Will is on the autistic spectrum. I have kids on the spectrum, both severe & not so severe, & social is tough, but I'm not seeing the same thing in Will.

As far as Will being a "putz", I can agree there as he mishandled the situation, & (I think) was not comfortable in front of the cameras which may have also caused his avoidance issues.

But "putz" does not equal autistic spectrum. 

[Madding crowd]

14 hours ago, aphroditewitch said:

For the same reasons that a lot of abuse survivors continue to see their abuser. Halloween was right after decision day. So it doesn't seem like it was a recurring thing. And after having to relive everything, I doubt either one will speak to the other again. 

Victims of abuse stay because they are afraid of their abuser, they have children and no where to go, they have no money or friends to stay with, they are afraid the abuser will stalk or kill them. None of these apply to Kate. Luke in no way indicated she must return-this was a choice made by Kate.

[aphroditewitch]

3 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

Victims of abuse stay because they are afraid of their abuser, they have children and no where to go, they have no money or friends to stay with, they are afraid the abuser will stalk or kill them. None of these apply to Kate. Luke in no way indicated she must return-this was a choice made by Kate.

What happened between Kate and Luke was absolutely emotional abuse. Abuse is complicated and months after the fact, so many people who have the benefit of hindsight deciding what Kate should have done differently is not helpful to anyone. 

[Soup333]

38 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

I think part of the reason Will had this sneering expression on his face and unwillingness to face Jasmine is because under the surface he was seething at her.  She rubbed him so the wrong way that he was probably quite less than nice about it with her in private.  The fact that she told him not to throw shade also made me realize that she too could have thrown a lot of shade at Will herself but chose not to, which is one reason their on-camera exchanges seemed so stilted and strange.  She was also holding a lot back.  I think that made Jasmine look worse on-camera because there were two sides to this story and we weren't seeing even half of it.  But it also means that she had a little bit of class not to get mean in return.

Jasmine threw it first. She answered the host's questions by saying people who aren't open shouldn't do this - and she's talking about Will. He made his comment about selfish people after that, probably in direct response because he knew she was talking about him. Then she said don't throw shade as if she hadn't thrown some herself.

At that time there was probably a lot of resentment on both parts but especially hers because she was rejected after she said she wanted to remain married. I think that's why she wanted him to answer if he thought there was a chance before she did so she could then reject him.

[gonecrackers]

I also feel what went on with L&K was emotional abuse, however, she was never in the same predicament as some who have a long history, kids, no personal funds, no support - i.e. stuck.  She was never stuck.  At first I felt terrible for her, but as the show went on I had trouble feeling for someone who continued to have sex with a guy who told her outright several times (she said) that he was not attracted to her. She not only stayed, but kept up with a sexual 'relationship' (of sorts) with him. Then went back for more even after decision day. I'm done with both of them.

[Madding crowd]

5 minutes ago, aphroditewitch said:

What happened between Kate and Luke was absolutely emotional abuse. Abuse is complicated and months after the fact, so many people who have the benefit of hindsight deciding what Kate should have done differently is not helpful to anyone. 

That is exactly what we do in this forum. Kate admitted she went back to see Luke after she had been drinking. He did not in any way force her . None of us know exactly what went down between them since they are both evasive and lying. 

[aphroditewitch]

2 minutes ago, gonecrackers said:

I also feel what went on with L&K was emotional abuse, however, she was never in the same predicament as some who have a long history, kids, no personal funds, no support - i.e. stuck.  She was never stuck.  At first I felt terrible for her, but as the show went on I had trouble feeling for someone who continued to have sex with a guy who told her outright several times (she said) that he was not attracted to her. She not only stayed, but kept up with a sexual 'relationship' (of sorts) with him. Then went back for more even after decision day. I'm done with both of them.

There are a lot of questions. Since she is alleged to have tried to end things earlier, only for the show to apply significant pressure on her to stay, staying is not all on her. It is really gross that show has done this multiple times.  The show has continued to put participants in potentially dangerous situations with their casting choices.  Eventually something worse than what we have seen will happen. It almost did during season 2 with Jessica and Ryan.

[Yeah No]

5 minutes ago, Soup333 said:

Jasmine threw it first. She answered the host's questions by saying people who aren't open shouldn't do this - and she's talking about Will. He made his comment about selfish people after that, probably in direct response because he knew she was talking about him. Then she said don't throw shade as if she hadn't thrown some herself.

At that time there was probably a lot of resentment on both parts but especially hers because she was rejected after she said she wanted to remain married. I think that's why she wanted him to answer if he thought there was a chance before she did so she could then reject him.

The point I was trying to make is that she didn't get personal with him.  We have seen many couples on this show get ugly and direct some very personal insults towards their partner, and that is what I think she was trying to avoid, and what she did avoid in her own responses.  Them making it general about people who aren't open or who are selfish is not personal.  I think she was afraid that he was going to go there, which is why she made her comment.

If she wanted him to say that I think it's because she wanted the world to see how ridiculous he is and that she would not want him even if he did "one day" want her back.  And I have no problem with that.  I don't think she put those words in his mouth.  She doesn't have his balls in a jar by the door.  He could have said anything at that point.

[gonecrackers]

6 minutes ago, aphroditewitch said:

There are a lot of questions. Since she is alleged to have tried to end things earlier, only for the show to apply significant pressure on her to stay, staying is not all on her. It is really gross that show has done this multiple times.  The show has continued to put participants in potentially dangerous situations with their casting choices.  Eventually something worse than what we have seen will happen. It almost did during season 2 with Jessica and Ryan.

Yeah I totally agree this show is very irresponsible. There are questions, but ultimately it was her decision. She could've stayed to try to work on an emotional connection with him (yeah, I know wasn't gonna happen) w/o any sex - she could've done a "Will" of sorts but that's not what she did.

Also, how do we know the show placed "significant pressure on her to stay"?  I never heard that, in fact, I believe it was Cal who said he would understand if she had wanted a divorce when they got back from the honeymoon. Pepper looked done with the whole thing in that weird Facetime about them having sex. Her friends were not having this relationship & that was obvious even when they were tactful on screen - who knows what they told her off camera.

We can speculate she had pressure, which is understandable, but from what we actually saw it looked like she had more than enough support to end the craziness.

Edited April 11, 2019 by gonecrackers

[aphroditewitch]

Just now, gonecrackers said:

Yeah I totally agree this show is very irresponsible. There are questions, but ultimately it was her decision. She could've stayed to try to work on an emotional connection with him w/o any sex - she could've done a "Will" of sorts but that's not what she did.

Also, how do we know the show placed "significant pressure on her to stay"?  I never heard that, in fact, I believe it was Cal who said he would understand if she had wanted a divorce when they got back from the honeymoon. Pepper looked done with the whole thing in that weird Facetime about them having sex. Her friends were not having this relationship & that was obvious even when they were tactful on screen - who knows what they told her off camera.

We can speculate she had pressure, which is understandable, but from what we actually saw it looked like she had more than enough support to end the craziness.

Various sources have come forward stating that she asked for a divorce earlier. And that tracks with what we saw on the show with her speaking about it with the useless Dr. Jessica. There is also the fact that their editing was all over the place and suggests that they really didn't live together much. 

[gonecrackers]

Just now, aphroditewitch said:

Various sources have come forward stating that she asked for a divorce earlier. And that tracks with what we saw on the show with her speaking about it with the useless Dr. Jessica. There is also the fact that their editing was all over the place and suggests that they really didn't live together much. 

If she wanted a divorce so badly why did she continue to have sex with him then...

[Yeah No]

14 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

That is exactly what we do in this forum. Kate admitted she went back to see Luke after she had been drinking. He did not in any way force her . None of us know exactly what went down between them since they are both evasive and lying. 

I think what I said earlier in this thread about Kate now "offering up" any hope of a "relationship" with Luke has now become about hooking up with him sexually because she has some sort of crush or fetish on him that she can't help herself about.  And maybe he is indulging her to "make her happy", (aka work off some sort of dysfunctional guilt over letting her down), like he pretty much admitted to doing before, who knows?  Like she may have said, "OK, if a relationship is out of the question, how about just sex?"  

3 minutes ago, gonecrackers said:

If she wanted a divorce so badly why did she continue to have sex with him then...

See my most recent post above.

[aphroditewitch]

Just now, gonecrackers said:

If she wanted a divorce so badly why did she continue to have sex with him then...

Did she though? Because it sounds like that may have stopped by the time she spoke to Dr. Pepper about it. And couples who split or divorce sleep with each other all the time, even in the real world. 

The Kate we saw at the reunion was very different, someone who recognized how bad the relationship had been. Someone who may have gone into therapy to deal with what happened. Which was why she refused to let Luke control the narrative. 

[Crazy Bird Lady]

1 minute ago, aphroditewitch said:

Did she though? Because it sounds like that may have stopped by the time she spoke to Dr. Pepper about it. And couples who split or divorce sleep with each other all the time, even in the real world. 

The Kate we saw at the reunion was very different, someone who recognized how bad the relationship had been. Someone who may have gone into therapy to deal with what happened. Which was why she refused to let Luke control the narrative. 

We will never really know the truth. 

I can certainly imagine Kate going out to celebrate her decision to divorce by getting smashed --and people who are too drunk to think often do habitual things. Maybe she took a cab to the place she had shared with Luke?!

[Madding crowd]

Yes couples who split up sleep together. But is it fair then to say one of the couple is being abused if it is a mutual choice? I believe there may have been emotional abuse on both sides. It is abusive to say someone repulses you and continue the relationship and it abusive to pressure someone for sex and then call them gay for their reaction.

The word abuse is thrown around a lot these days but in truth both of these people had the means and the freedom to leave if they were unhappy. Kate’s biggest issue is she wanted Luke to fall in love with her and he didn’t. 

[gonecrackers]

Here's my take - I think Kate likes sex. Nothing wrong with that. She was also attracted to Luke, had married him on TV, & wanted to make it work. She also just wanted sex with the guy she married who she was attracted to - simple as that.

But he was a jerk - abusive language, etc. She was confused for a time, because he could be nice. Is this an abusive relationship? Sure it can be.. but here's what I feel is key: Kate never dismissed any of the red flags - she questioned everything - she spoke to the 'experts' (for what it was worth) - she spoke to her friends - she even started to take him to task on his crap.

In the early stages of an abusive relationship with someone like Luke, the abused person often defends their abuser - they don't typically act like Kate or have all the validation & actually listen to it.

So I don't think she had an abuser attachment thing going with him; I know what that's like & I didn't see it. And even though it seemed like forever to watch, all this went down & was over quickly between them.

She's free & has hopefully learned something from this experience (hopefully Luke does too).

[aphroditewitch]

2 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

Yes couples who split up sleep together. But is it fair then to say one of the couple is being abused if it is a mutual choice? I believe there may have been emotional abuse on both sides. It is abusive to say someone repulses you and continue the relationship and it abusive to pressure someone for sex and then call them gay for their reaction.

The word abuse is thrown around a lot these days but in truth both of these people had the means and the freedom to leave if they were unhappy. Kate’s biggest issue is she wanted Luke to fall in love with her and he didn’t. 

That is now how abuse works. Also, she didn't call him gay. It sounds like he was the one who first brought it up. 

[Yeah No]

54 minutes ago, gonecrackers said:

I don't think Will is on the autistic spectrum. I have kids on the spectrum, both severe & not so severe, & social is tough, but I'm not seeing the same thing in Will.

As far as Will being a "putz", I can agree there as he mishandled the situation, & (I think) was not comfortable in front of the cameras which may have also caused his avoidance issues.

But "putz" does not equal autistic spectrum. 

No, I never meant to suggest that, but he could be both!!  I think a lot of Will's weaseling behavior on camera is because he was intimidated by Jasmine and just wanted to get her off his back.  He knows she thinks he "did her wrong" and he really doesn't know whether that's true or not, or how to deal with the situation.  He probably wonders to himself what he might have done wrong because he knows that he's out of his element with personal relationships.  Meanwhile at the same time, he's seething with anger at her for being upset with him.  So he tries to get her off his back if only make her stop being angry at him. 

[Madding crowd]

The definition of abuse used by healthcare and legal professionals is behavior which is purposely used to hurt another individual. It is possible here that neither party intended to hurt the other or that Luke intended to hurt Kate but her choices to stay with him and keep pushing him for sex were her own choices. 

It is also a form of abuse to keep pushing  a person for sex when they say no. If Luke did that to Kate we would all be clamoring for his arrest. 

[Yeah No]

I've taken a lot of heat for my opinions, but I just wanted to point out that Mr. Yeah No and I probably been on the right track about the two things I've gotten the most heat about, which are:

1. That there's a good chance that Luke is either gay or bisexual and/or sexually weird too.
    
2. That despite anything negative that's true about Jasmine, which I never meant to diminish, Will is far from perfect and has his issues with communication and personal relationships.  I think this tell-all episode finally showed more of that to the world.

Sorry, I just had to get that off my chest.

I'll see myself out. 😉

Edited April 11, 2019 by Yeah No

[gonecrackers]

9 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

No, I never meant to suggest that, but he could be both!!  I think a lot of Will's weaseling behavior on camera is because he was intimidated by Jasmine and just wanted to get her off his back.  He knows she thinks he "did her wrong" and he really doesn't know whether that's true or not, or how to deal with the situation.  He probably wonders to himself what he might have done wrong because he knows that he's out of his element with personal relationships.  Meanwhile at the same time, he's seething with anger at her for being upset with him.  So he tries to get her off his back if only make her stop being angry at him. 

Interesting because I don't see him seething with anger toward her. He seems to want to be friends, but I think is over reaching & being disingenuous when he speaks of dating her. By the reunion I was feeling like he needs to stop. He said he didn't want to stay married - fine - but then the dating comment annoyed me because I thought if it's over, dude, it's over; stick to your decision - geesh Will!  Anyway, that's where he lost me.

As far as being a putz & on the spectrum, yes & no. Spectrum social issues can seem "putzy" to people who don't have those issues, so it can be a bit damaging to them when they try, only to be thought of as a putz. I know you didn't mean it that way; as an autism mom I'm a bit sensitive to that for them, because I hope they will try & not be brought down for mistakes or social bumbles.

But that said, I still don't feel Will has spectrum issues. It's possible to social bumble or just be a bad communicator & not be on the spectrum.  Peace out... 🙂

Edited April 11, 2019 by gonecrackers

[aphroditewitch]

2 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

The definition of abuse used by healthcare and legal professionals is behavior which is purposely used to hurt another individual. It is possible here that neither party intended to hurt the other or that Luke intended to hurt Kate but her choices to stay with him and keep pushing him for sex were her own choices. 

It is also a form of abuse to keep pushing  a person for sex when they say no. If Luke did that to Kate we would all be clamoring for his arrest. 

But that doesn't apply to Luke at all. He knew he was hurting her. He blew off the 1 month anniversary filming which was meant to be hurtful and disrespectful. he knew he was supposed to be there because they have set filming times. He was telling production behind her back that she had a drinking problem but then couldn't come up with examples when pressed by Dr. Pepper. He would tell her to her face that he didn't like her, which she called him on when he lied about it. There was the way he berated her in the car following the mini moon. Those are intentionally hurtful things. 

And the pushing for sex thing, sounds overblown by Luke. Kate seemed to have a reasonable expectation for a healthy sex life and his issues with sex made him want to shame her for it and he decided to characterize her as a crazy nympho. . And she even said that when they met with Dr. Pepper that when they talked about it she had said she didn't realize her felt pressured and apologized. 

[Retired at last]

I am still surprised by the animosity towards Will on this board. I didn't see any of the seething anger or would NEVER think to describe him as being on the spectrum. Wow. I guess that is the purpose of this type of thing - we all bring what we are and what we have experienced into the interpretations of strangers' behavior and make all kinds of comments based on those perceptions. People have been vocal about so many of the couples this time. Has it been that way for all past seasons? Last season, there was the Mia/Tristan drama nonsense; Bobby and Danielle were boring; so were all the comments about Dave and Amber?  If Kate and Luke hadn't been the drama focus this season, I think Will and Jasmine would have been the focal point, even more than AJ.

[Madding crowd]

Honestly, what would you say if Kate said Luke kept touching her and kissing her and asking for sex even though she said no? You would likely call it sexual assault. And things like missing a one month anniversary might be annoying but most people don’t even celebrate things like that-hardly abusive. Nothing will convince me that Kate was somehow forced to meet with Luke to try to have sex after decision day.She  was not held hostage by abuse. I agree Luke is a jerk. I don’t agree Kate did nothing wrong here. 

Edited April 11, 2019 by Madding crowd

[aphroditewitch]

1 minute ago, Madding crowd said:

Honestly, what would you say if Kate said Luke kept touching her and kissing her and asking for sex even though she said no? You would likely call it sexual assault

Except neither one described that as happening. And Kate's version of what happened remained consistent the entire season. Meanwhile Luke had several different versions. 

Edited April 11, 2019 by aphroditewitch

[Madding crowd]

Not true-Luke said she kept kissing him in bed and asked for sex over and over. Kate said “but you came to bed in your boxers”. What if Luke said Kate came to bed in a Teddy? Would that require her to have sex? No.

[aphroditewitch]

1 hour ago, Madding crowd said:

Not true-Luke said she kept kissing him in bed and asked for sex over and over. Kate said “but you came to bed in your boxers”. What if Luke said Kate came to bed in a Teddy? Would that require her to have sex? No.

But that isn't what she said at all. She said, multiple times that they were in bed cuddling, when she asked about it, asked being a keyword, and she maintained that version of events. Luke told Dr. Pepper one thing and then told a completely different story at the reunion. 

Edited April 11, 2019 by aphroditewitch

[Ohwell]

The only thing I didn't like about Luke was the repulsed and dead inside comment that he made to Kate.  However, I'm now beginning to wonder if he made it in the heat of an argument they were having about sex, and perhaps she kept pushing for sex--especially drunk sex.  In any event, he shouldn't have said it and it made him seem like an ass, but aside from that I didn't think that he was a bad guy.   

[Booger666]

I don’t think either Kate or Luke “pushed” for sex.  At the end of the season they  both said there were multiple times in bed where they were cuddling and kissing, it would escalate and then one of them would ask for sex.  And then Luke got caught in a lie about it at the reunion.  He said Kate was the one asking for sex.  He then acquiesced that he had asked for sex once.  Kate called him out on the lie and then he said it was twice. She again called him out for lying and he turned it around on her and she said it was around 60/40.  At that point Luke didn’t respond.  They had a 2 bedroom apartment and if Luke was free to go into the other room and ignore Kate for hours after sex he certainly was free to go to the other room and ignore her before sex, as was Kate.

Edited April 11, 2019 by Booger666

[Ilovepie]

1 hour ago, Retired at last said:

Has it been that way for all past seasons? Last season, there was the Mia/Tristan drama nonsense; Bobby and Danielle were boring; so were all the comments about Dave and Amber?  If Kate and Luke hadn't been the drama focus this season, I think Will and Jasmine would have been the focal point, even more than AJ.

Yes it always like this. It's honestly the problem with this show. If you look at these forums, most of the discussion centers on the dysfunctional people, who are usually the ones who get divorced. This is why the show will never stop casting (and yes, I do mean casting, not matching) people who should never be chosen to marry a stranger. This show is all kinds of twisted.

We all come here to vent or make armchair analysis of people we don't know and only see a few minutes of frankensteined footage of every week. It's part of the fun 😜

[Neurochick]

4 hours ago, Auntie said:

Right???!!!! Dr. Pepper, Coca Cola and Mt. Dew - - they add nothing of value to this program. And as I previously posted a while ago, the "experts" and producers of the show purposely select people who will create controversy on the show (for ratings) over people who might actually make a good match with a remote possibility of falling in love. The fake tears at decision day and the shaking of heads - give me a break.

Of course this is for ratings.  It's a show, not science.  A show needs controversy and drama which equal ratings.  

Quote

I am still surprised by the animosity towards Will on this board. I didn't see any of the seething anger or would NEVER think to describe him as being on the spectrum. Wow. I guess that is the purpose of this type of thing - we all bring what we are and what we have experienced into the interpretations of strangers' behavior and make all kinds of comments based on those perceptions.

I totally agree with this.  Jasmine made fun of Will's fear of heights.  She refused to get into the mud bath thingy with the other couples, and sat there with a scowl on her face the whole time.  She told Will she wanted the man to pay ALL the bills.  But I guess Jasmine is just misunderstood.  The issue with Will is, as I've been saying over and over and over again, he wasn't attracted to her, end of story.  If they paired me off with a man I wasn't attracted to, I'd probably stay in bed and sleep until the shit was over.

Edited April 11, 2019 by Neurochick

[Racj82]

12 hours ago, antfitz said:

 She may not have been too drunk to drive. He may have had sex with her. At either one of them wanted to say that.  I know if I were her, I would not want to have admitted that .

 People want to know about his sexuality, because he is on a TV show marrying a woman. If he is gay, then he should not try to cover it that way. And if he is gay, it's creepy.

Again. I know why people care.

Edited April 11, 2019 by Racj82

[MJS]

4 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

That is exactly what we do in this forum. Kate admitted she went back to see Luke after she had been drinking. He did not in any way force her . None of us know exactly what went down between them since they are both evasive and lying. 

I missed the post where someone said she was forced. The point is that people who have been abused sometimes seek out their abusers, in an attempt to get validation, to exert some power over them because they felt powerless, because there was a piece of them they liked even though they were abusive. 

There are very few sweeping generalizations to be made about what victims of abuse do or don’t do. 

[Yeah No]

5 hours ago, gonecrackers said:

As far as being a putz & on the spectrum, yes & no. Spectrum social issues can seem "putzy" to people who don't have those issues, so it can be a bit damaging to them when they try, only to be thought of as a putz. I know you didn't mean it that way; as an autism mom I'm a bit sensitive to that for them, because I hope they will try & not be brought down for mistakes or social bumbles.

But that said, I still don't feel Will has spectrum issues. It's possible to social bumble or just be a bad communicator & not be on the spectrum.  Peace out... 🙂

I have known many people "on the spectrum".  It comes with the territory when you go to a school for gifted kids.  I have also known some of those people into adulthood.  No two people with this manifest it the same.  The reasons why I think Will might be among them are as follows:

1. His seeming avoidance of social situations.  He spent some time with the others on the "mini-moon" but quickly went off to take a nap.  I just got the feeling that this is his usual way of being in group situations.  He may feel socially inadequate or just not care or know how to enter into the usual give and take of social interactions.  This goes beyond garden variety introversion. 
    
2. He seems to have difficulty articulating and recognizing his own and others' emotional states.  He seems to lack insight into his and Jasmine's feelings.  When someone goes on like he did in this episode and makes little sense, I get suspicious of that.  I would usually just call this "cluelessness" but it could mean a deeper issue, too.   When he just completely missed helping Jasmine when she had her mini-bike mishap, I thought that he was a little clueless, but later, other things contributed to me seeing a pattern of behavior.  He also seems to be a little oblivious to interpreting some nonverbal cues.  Jasmine wearing that sexy negligee - I don't believe him that he was turned on by it.  I think it might have gone right over his head.  Kind of like when Amy on "Big Bang Theory" gets dressed sexy for Sheldon and he completely ignores it.
    
3. Those with ASD often make little eye contact when conversing with others.  They don't engage with people in an especially personal manner.  Their speech can seem robotic and monotone.  That sounds a lot like Will.  I don't think I've ever seen Will really engage with anyone on the show and when he talks he's always looking down or off to the side.  Either that or they can sometimes make inappropriate eye contact, such as staring too long, etc.  We never saw Will do that.

I'm sure I could come up with more but I don't have the time right now.  Let's just say I didn't pull that opinion out of nowhere without reasons....I realize we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg with these people, but sometimes you can tell a lot from the tip, lol.

[gonecrackers]

1 minute ago, Yeah No said:

No two people with this manifest it the same. 

Which is very true; I've lived autism my entire life so I understand this very well. Still I'm quite hesitant to use that with Will given he was in a very uncomfortable situation which can make anyone behave not quite like themselves. He seemed very different when others were around, so there's that too.

[kanona29]

5 hours ago, Booger666 said:

I don’t think either Kate or Luke “pushed” for sex.  At the end of the season they  both said there were multiple times in bed where they were cuddling and kissing, it would escalate and then one of them would ask for sex.  And then Luke got caught in a lie about it at the reunion.  He said Kate was the one asking for sex.  He then acquiesced that he had asked for sex once.  Kate called him out on the lie and then he said it was twice. She again called him out for lying and he turned it around on her and she said it was around 60/40.  At that point Luke didn’t respond.  They had a 2 bedroom apaartment and I f Luke was free to go into the other room and ignore Kate for hours after sex he certainly was free to go to the other room and ignore her before sex, as was Kate.

Thank you!  Someone who actually watched the reunion show!!! lol I also remember Kate making a point that he always initiates cuddling and he did not deny it.

Some of the posts are really just what people are guessing happened and it doesn't make much sense to keep going back and forth over things we aren't even 100% sure about. 

One thing I am 100% sure about is that Will is probably taking a nap right now....zzzzzz. lol

But seriously, Will is not a bad guy and he's not on the spectrum. He's just not a great communicator and he's an avoider. Jasmine is not a bad woman either. She's just a bit demanding and she has certain expectations. They were not a match for each other, but they are both still dateable for their right person. 

It was great posting with you folks! See everyone for the next season!!

[Soup333]

3 hours ago, Racj82 said:

Again. I know why people care.

6 hours ago, Retired at last said:

I am still surprised by the animosity towards Will on this board. I didn't see any of the seething anger or would NEVER think to describe him as being on the spectrum. Wow. I guess that is the purpose of this type of thing - we all bring what we are and what we have experienced into the interpretations of strangers' behavior and make all kinds of comments based on those perceptions. People have been vocal about so many of the couples this time. Has it been that way for all past seasons? Last season, there was the Mia/Tristan drama nonsense; Bobby and Danielle were boring; so were all the comments about Dave and Amber?  If Kate and Luke hadn't been the drama focus this season, I think Will and Jasmine would have been the focal point, even more than AJ.

I agree. But In just a couple months there’ll be another 8 people to dissect. I hope we get some good ones. Lol. 

3 hours ago, Racj82 said:

Again. I know why people care.

I think it was the phrasing of the original post. It read as if you were questioning why anyone would care. 

[Racj82]

1 hour ago, Soup333 said:

I agree. But In just a couple months there’ll be another 8 people to dissect. I hope we get some good ones. Lol. 

I think it was the phrasing of the original post. It read as if you were questioning why anyone would care. 

I explained myself in the original post. Maybe I should have been clearer.

But, we spend a season speculating in things that are generally none of are business about these people because they are in are lives now. We will continue to be curious about them in all aspects.

It goes without saying why Kate would care if he's gay or not.

The  research department on this show stinks. Or the production team stinks for letting things slide because it will make juicy TV.

[Aethera]

Folks, please don't tell people what they should and shouldn't post, and remember to respect all opinions. There is also no reason to need to have the last word - state your opinions once and move on.

[LuvMyShows]

9 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

Victims of abuse stay because they are afraid of their abuser, they have children and no where to go, they have no money or friends to stay with, they are afraid the abuser will stalk or kill them. None of these apply to Kate. Luke in no way indicated she must return-this was a choice made by Kate.

There are sooo many more reasons why people stay....   To name just a few: poor self-esteem so they don't think anyone else will want them, shame so they don't think they deserve anything more, worn down to feel there's no point in trying to get away.  I'm not saying anything about whether abuse does or doesn't apply to Kate; I'm just saying that simply because none of the few reasons listed by Madding Crowd apply to Kate, doesn't mean she couldn't still have been a victim of abuse.

9 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I think what I said earlier in this thread about Kate now "offering up" any hope of a "relationship" with Luke has now become about hooking up with him sexually because she has some sort of crush or fetish on him that she can't help herself about. 

We saw and heard nothing to indicate any type of a fetish on Kate's part, and I imagine that the producers would have loved to have aired that type of thing, and I would think Dr. Blondie and Dr. Pepper would have feasted on it.  As for a crush that she can't help herself about...to hook up with someone because you can't help yourself is seriously problematic behavior.

[scruffy73]

On 4/10/2019 at 7:43 PM, LuvMyShows said:

For some reason I hadn't realized until now, that she went to bed at his house because of being too drunk to drive.  Soooo much about that doesn't make sense.  She probably drove there herself, since we know that her car was there late in the evening.  (I think it is highly unlikely that anyone she knows would have been willing to drive her car to Luke's house for her.)  So either, she was sober when she got there, and drank so much at his house that she was then unable to drive.  Or, she was not sober when she got there, and drove there drunk, either drinking more or not once she was there, and was then too drunk to drive home.  Usually, if one is too drunk to drive, they Uber home, especially if they are at the home of someone heinous.  To make the decision to spend the night at the home of someone heinous because you are too drunk to drive, is very sketchy.

My thought exactly. How did she get to Luke’s if she was drunk? Does he live downtown where she could leave her car and walk to his house? I’m trying to make something make sense but nothing about them makes sense. They both lie so damn much that I can’t stand them. The lie one another and they lie about themselves. Sickening 

[Kiss my mutt]

If Will is on the spectrum, I must be too. 

[Yeah No]

When I first said I "almost thought" Will MIGHT be on the spectrum, it was an offhand speculation.  It was not without its reasons but I didn't expect every little offhand statement I make about someone on this show to be taken as the Gospel According to Yeah No.  It was something I was mulling over, not creating a diagnosis.  Maybe I should just keep my thoughts to myself  about this show. 

Edited April 12, 2019 by Yeah No

[KateHearts]

On 4/9/2019 at 9:50 PM, Nowhere said:

Being interested in both men and women is not a red flag for marriage to a woman. Even if the show saw that on Facebook, that doesn’t mean that he can’t marry a woman. Bisexual shouldn’t be disqualifying. 

That being said, Luke is probably gay and he needs to just be truthful about it.

It may not be a “red flag,” but it should be disclosed. There are certain things that are ok for some applicants, but not others. I would want to be aware of it.

On another note, the hand-wringing, eye dabbing and delighted clapping by the experts was bugging the hell out of me. The applause was a barely disguised, "yay! We didn't screw up TOO badly!"  And Pastor Cal's fatherly scowl of disapproval when Will opted for divorce, along with the "you are throwing an opporutunity away!" comments made me want to smack him through my TV.  Shut up, PC.

I was hoping that they would ask Luke to "go first" regarding his decision. Kate going first gave him the opportunity to say, "you know, you are so right; I'm going to agree with your decision because I am such a caring guy."  

Luke commented that he "knew who she was" before meeting at the altar. I know there was discussion at one point that she had attended one of his dating events; but how did he know who she was prior to the wedding?

As for Kate going to his place after decision day: I can kind of see that happening. She had finally put an end to a very weird, surreal and emotionally punishing 6 weeks and, despite the fact that she knew ending the marriage had to happen, she seems like the type who hates to end things badly and, after getting drunk, wanted to make sure things were ok.  I get that type- I AM that type.

And K/K revealing that they did The Deed backstage on decision day when the crew went to lunch?  Keepin' it classy. Didn't really need to know that.

Edited April 12, 2019 by KateHearts

[Ohwell]

I liked K/K but the one thing that bugged me about them was their constant need to show us their twu wuv and how attracted they are to each other.  We get it.  You screw a lot.

[Soup333]

17 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

I liked K/K but the one thing that bugged me about them was their constant need to show us their twu wuv and how attracted they are to each other.  We get it.  You screw a lot.

The hormones are buzzing. It was probably so thick in there they could feel it all the way over on the divorced side of the room. 

[Drogo]

In hindsight, maybe I dislike Kate and Luke equally. 

If a man were MAFS with a woman, and they had sex and afterwards she was in the corner in the fetal position/asking him if he thought there was something wrong with her or if she was gay/telling him it had made her feel dead inside/telling him the sex made her feel repulsed... I can't imagine that man initiating sex with her again and/or accepting sex when she offers it.  If he did, I'd judge his ass hard into Catch A Predator territory.  Not sure why I have felt differently with the situation reversed. 

I'd guess Jasmine, Stephanie and Kristine would've been out the fucking door like the Roadrunner.

[Empress1]

10 minutes ago, Drogo said:

In hindsight, maybe I dislike Kate and Luke equally. 

If a man were MAFS with a woman, and they had sex and afterwards she was in the corner in the fetal position/asking him if he thought there was something wrong with her or if she was gay/telling him it had made her feel dead inside/telling him the sex made her feel repulsed... I can't imagine that man initiating sex with her again and/or accepting sex when she offers it.  If he did, I'd judge his ass hard into Catch A Predator territory.  Not sure why I have felt differently with the situation reversed. 

I'd guess Jasmine, Stephanie and Kristine would've been out the fucking door like the Roadrunner.

I said from jump that "repulsed and dead inside" should have been the end of it. In that situation, the best you can hope for is "I'm no longer repulsed when I touch you," which is a subterranean bar. I wouldn't give a man the chance to grow not to be repulsed by me, because ... what?

I'm not saying Luke's not a dick - there are mountains of evidence that support that he is. It's a cruel thing to say (as I said, I can't imagine saying that in those words, even if I were genuinely repulsed, unless I was actively trying to hurt someone). But when someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time. (Of all the words Maya Angelou blessed us with, those are my favorites. I live by them.)

Kate said out of her own mouth that Luke told her "lots of times" that he wasn't attracted to her. You know Kristine would have been gone the first time Keith said that to her.

41 minutes ago, Soup333 said:

The hormones are buzzing. It was probably so thick in there they could feel it all the way over on the divorced side of the room. 

I didn't watch the reunion but it sounds like Keith and Kristine are still in that new couple phase where you basically fuck all the time, and good for them.

[Drogo]

5 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

You know Kristine would have been gone the first time Keith said that to her.

Kristine:

[Neurochick]

21 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I'm sure I could come up with more but I don't have the time right now.  Let's just say I didn't pull that opinion out of nowhere without reasons....I realize we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg with these people, but sometimes you can tell a lot from the tip, lol.

Sometimes I don't think every behavior has to be a diagnosis, I realize sometimes it is, but for me, Will was just over Jasmine, period.