S08.E14: The End or the Beginning

[Empress1]

1 minute ago, seacliffsal said:

I also think she really doesn't realize that she continually put him down and/or corrected him about everything. 

I don't think she did either, and I wonder if she'll get it watching herself on TV. I remember Atlanta Sam saying something to that effect on the "six months later" show, that she didn't realize how much of an asshole she was until she watched it (and she was a HUGE asshole, all the time). What was interesting was that everyone in her life seemed to recognize that she had bullying assholish tendencies, but she seemed clueless.

Anyway, I wonder if watching the show will be illuminating for Jasmine.

[Soup333]

2 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

I don't think she did either, and I wonder if she'll get it watching herself on TV. I remember Atlanta Sam saying something to that effect on the "six months later" show, that she didn't realize how much of an asshole she was until she watched it (and she was a HUGE asshole, all the time). What was interesting was that everyone in her life seemed to recognize that she had bullying assholish tendencies, but she seemed clueless.

Anyway, I wonder if watching the show will be illuminating for Jasmine.

It’d be nice but I doubt it. She has girlfriends who will support her and there are plenty of MAFS fans who think Will was the only party at fault. She’ll blame it all on his lack of drive (both financial and sexual) and take zero responsibility. 

Honestly, she’s one of the more obtuse women I’ve ever seen on tv. I’ve seen people on Facebook wanting her to get a show of her own and I’m like for what? They can have her sitting behind a desk looking through stacks of income tax returns until she finds one that’s attractive to her. 

[Empress1]

1 minute ago, Soup333 said:

I’ve seen people on Facebook wanting her to get a show of her own

Really? She's nowhere near interesting or charismatic enough to carry a show on her own, IMO.

[DrewPaul2010]

51 minutes ago, Stella Rose said:

 He disgusts me.  I hope he finds his own peace and never hurts anyone like this ever again.  He makes me sick and is bringing back all kinds of nasty memories.

Don't hold back, tell us what you really think.

He's going to be roundly criticized by all, I can't imagine even his friends think he is a stand-up guy. Even his family must be thinking what a schmuck. His grandma probably flips him the bird. 

[Ohwell]

Jasmine Miss Lincoln U. always gave me the impression that she thinks her shit don't stink.  Will seems to be much more down to earth.

[Stella Rose]

56 minutes ago, DrewPaul2010 said:

Don't hold back, tell us what you really think.

He's going to be roundly criticized by all, I can't imagine even his friends think he is a stand-up guy. Even his family must be thinking what a schmuck. His grandma probably flips him the bird. 

I apologize if I said too much and somehow offended you, Drewpaul, but damn, he brings it all back.  That sort of person just...  ugh...  PTSD.  I hope Kate gets some help dealing with the aftermath.  Only 7 weeks, but I know she is wrecked.  Between this and this past 9-1-1 episode, I am a fucking mess.

Edited April 4, 2019 by Stella Rose

[Yeah No]

5 hours ago, dirtypop90 said:

My issue with Will all season has been his lack of honesty. He couldn't even look Jasmine in the eyes the majority of the time because he was not being honest.  I do believe Jas was blindsided because Will didn't tell her he wasn't attracted to her, when he so obviously isn't.  In fact, I think he told her the opposite, which is why she ignored the glaringly obvious signs that he wasn't physically attracted to her.  He could have at least whispered it to her when the cameras weren't rolling.  I've personally seen it since the wedding.  He showed zero excitement about Jas after he saw her.  Will not wanting to pay all the bills was not their biggest hurdle.  I've known men to say they will not do a lot of things and for women they weren't really attracted to and completely flip the script when they get a woman they thought was hot.  I think we would have gotten a completely different Will if he were paired with a woman that he was physically attracted to.  He refusal to "bend" on anything or to even really try with Jas was because he wasn't physically attracted to her.

I think you nailed it here.  Will was anything but honest and open with Jasmine and she was left to try to figure out what was going on without any help from him.  He just disconnected and she kept hoping that if she kept wearing cleavage tops and did "bonding exercises" that something would eventually click in him, when it was abundantly obvious to the audience that there was absolutely no chance.  Of course the "experts" usually tell them to keep hanging in there and "doing the work" and things might eventually gel, so Jasmine was probably being led on by them too.  I can understand her not wanting to give up hope.  I can find a lot of things to criticize about her, but I really doubt that if Will connected with her in some way the stuff about the bill paying would have been such a big issue.  The two of them are just very different people.  It's not that either of them is the wrong or right one here.  Will's ambitions are admirable, but perhaps not realistic enough.  After all, someone has to pay the bills.  If I just married a guy with a good job and then suddenly he announced that he wanted to give it up to go help the community, I'd say, "That's great but how are you going to make enough money for us to live?"  It's not being selfish or materialistic to ask that of your spouse.  Oh wait - I actually DID have that happen to me - Just about everything HAS happened to me, so....

When I first got married Mr. Yeah No had a fantastic well paying job but then left it to pursue his passion of church organ building, which made like zero money.  I was not a fan of this decision even though I admired him pursuing his passion.  After a couple of really difficult years he realized he needed to make more money so he ended up going in a different direction, but not after putting the both of us through some seriously hard times.  I was working but in NYC my salary was nowhere near enough to live on.  It's amazing that we made it through.  Sure, I was a bit of a nag about it, but what spouse wouldn't be when faced with poverty?  The point is, if Will and Jasmine really had a connection, they would have worked that bill paying stuff out.

[configdotsys]

30 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

Jasmine Miss Lincoln U. always gave me the impression that she thinks her shit don't stink.  Will seems to be much more down to earth.

I have to say that I got the same vibe. She was in charge and made that very clear and Will wasn't having it. He couldn't even do a nice thing like make her pancakes without her hovering and criticizing. 

All the talk about "communication" drove me insane. They communicated just fine but did not agree on anything. That's not a communication problem. That is mismatch.

Edited April 4, 2019 by configdotsys
without, not with

[Ohwell]

2 minutes ago, configdotsys said:

All the talk about "communication" drove me insane. They communicated just fine but did not agree on anything. That's not a communication problem. That is mismatch.

It drove me insane, too, but that's all Will could come up with to hide the fact that he was turned off by her.

[configdotsys]

16 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

 He just disconnected and she kept hoping that if she kept wearing cleavage tops and did "bonding exercises" that something would eventually click in him, when it was abundantly obvious to the audience that there was absolutely no chance. 

If she paid attention and truly wanted to flip his switch, she should have put away the cleavage tops and went for the librarian look. Or at the very least showed a genuine appreciation for his desire to give back to the community. That she didn't just speaks to the sort of arrogance that I felt she showed all season long: making fun of his fear of heights, nagging when he cooked pancakes, expressing shock and dismay over Will's view on finances, the pooh poohing of his wanting to coach. It goes on. She continued doing what she expected to flip his switch instead of taking what he was saying an acting on that. But nope. It was her way or the highway. She expected Will to fully embrace the "Happy wife, happy life" mantra and he wasn't having it. Good for him. 

Edited April 4, 2019 by configdotsys
I can't spell today.

[Soup333]

17 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

 Will's ambitions are admirable, but perhaps not realistic enough.  After all, someone has to pay the bills.  If I just married a guy with a good job and then suddenly he announced that he wanted to give it up to go help the community, I'd say, "That's great but how are you going to make enough money for us to live?"  It's not being selfish or materialistic to ask that of your spouse.

If I remember correctly, Will said he wanted to get an investment property and start/get more into coaching. That in no way equals quitting his job to become a pauper coach. And that conversation was about a five year plan. 

I really don’t see how Will was dishonest about anything at all. If anything, Jasmine was dishonest with herself when she said she wanted to continue the marriage. They are not at all on the same page. Two different books in two different bookstores in two different countries. 

[Kiss my mutt]

Maybe Will should have just said that their values and future goals don’t align rather than say it was a communication issue. I think telling the problem was he just wasn’t attracted to her would have been more hurtful and not really the core issue from what I can tell. 

[configdotsys]

17 minutes ago, Kiss my mutt said:

Maybe Will should have just said that their values and future goals don’t align rather than say it was a communication issue. I think telling the problem was he just wasn’t attracted to her would have been more hurtful and not really the core issue from what I can tell. 

I totally agree with you. It was apparent throughout the season that Will as not into her and their goals were so different but he kept kind of dangling the carrot by saying that he was attracted to her, would love to be married for life, told her she was glowing in a blue outfit, etc. But none of that came out in his actions on the show at all so I can see why Jasmine would be confused initially, but Jasmine should have noticed very shortly after this started that he just wasn't into her. Her attempts to force the issue backfired because she went about it her way which didn't interest him. I'm sure for the show's purposes he couldn't just come out and say "This is not working for me," but he could have handled it a bit better. Maybe he did but those scenes wound up on the cutting room floor and they kept plugging in the generic "communication problems" stuff.

Edited April 4, 2019 by configdotsys

[aphroditewitch]

37 minutes ago, Soup333 said:

If I remember correctly, Will said he wanted to get an investment property and start/get more into coaching. That in no way equals quitting his job to become a pauper coach. And that conversation was about a five year plan. 

I really don’t see how Will was dishonest about anything at all. If anything, Jasmine was dishonest with herself when she said she wanted to continue the marriage. They are not at all on the same page. Two different books in two different bookstores in two different countries. 

The whole coaching thing doesn't make much sense and I think Will said it to annoy Jasmine. If he is not coaching now today and building up a reputation, then he is not going to be taking a prestigious coaching job at any point in five years. And that was Jasmine's point, the only coaching job he would be able to get with no coaching reputation to back him up would be in a junior high or high school. And everyone knows they don't make much money. And that kind of salary would be hard to support a family on without a spouse pulling in a much higher salary to combine with it.

He lied about several things. When they were talking about the wedding day he claimed she did something and she said she didn't. Then the flashback supported her version. When she was upset in the car on the way to the mini moon, he acted like she had nothing to be upset about but he was not nice to her with his comments during the kissing game and he again lied about it and again the flashback showed that. So for all the criticism of Jasmine putting him down, he was doing his fair share of putting her down as well. 

Edited April 4, 2019 by aphroditewitch

[Yeah No]

52 minutes ago, configdotsys said:

If she paid attention and truly wanted to flip his switch, she should have put away the cleavage tops and went for the librarian look. Or at the very least showed a genuine appreciation for his desire to give back to the community. That she didn't just speaks to the sort of arrogance that I felt she showed all season long: making fun of his fear of heights, nagging when he cooked pancakes, expressing shock and dismay over Will's view on finances, the pooh poohing of his wanting to coach. It goes on. She continued doing what she expected to flip his switch instead of taking what he was saying an acting on that. But nope. It was her way or the highway. She expected Will to fully embrace the "Happy wife, happy life" mantra and he wasn't having it. Good for him. 

You know, I worked in the corporate world for 25 years and know of several executives that have found ways to make good money and still give back to the community they came from.  In some cases their very jobs do both.  I just ran into one today I used to work with that helped to found a philanthropic organization that raises money for social purpose organizations.  He is presently a VP at a hospital and is involved in all sorts of social outreach through his position.  Of course this guy went to the Wharton school and has a very dynamic personality, and I don't think Will is exactly on that level.  I keep hearing he has this great sense of humor but then he clams up in front of the camera and can barely crack a smile or be real.  Eh, I don't know, I see him as a kind of putz. 

But back to the point - In some ways Jasmine's job combines both career and giving back to the community too.  I don't think she didn't appreciate Will's goal, she just thought he was being a unrealistic about it.  The way Will was acting was IMO kind of juvenile and uninformed.  He seemed to think it had to be an either/or proposition.  Either he works in a soul deadening corporate job or he leaves that world altogether to coach kids.  He acted like he wanted to just chuck his entire career to join the Peace Corps or something.  I know for a fact that he wouldn't have to do a complete 180 degree turn and could have the best of both worlds.  Jasmine wasn't buying that he would be able find a way to do that and I kind of agree with her.  Not because it isn't possible but because HE couldn't make it possible.  I have to wonder if Jasmine's attitude toward Will was because she saw him the same way I do.  I'm not defending her superior attitude about his background but I see some of that stuff coming from "sour grapes" either because she knew he wasn't digging her or because she didn't see him as being on her level in some ways.

Edited April 4, 2019 by Yeah No

[spunky]

12 hours ago, Claire Voyant said:

Puke telling Kate at least 3 times (yes, I counted)  how "attractive" he could find her made me want to reach through the tv and give him some wall to wall counseling.  What a douche.  I'm so happy for Kate I could PUKE!  LOL

Puke being gay or not has nothing to do with his treatment of Kate.  I've known many gay people and they are kind and thoughtful to both men and women and children.   Puke is perverse and he's absolutely on point when he said he was dead inside.   I'd feel sorry for him if he wasn't such a gigantic ass and so determined to play sicko mind games. 

Stephanie, Stephanie, Stephanie.  WTF are you doing?  AJ is an only child with a child's temper to match and if you think he's going to become more thoughtful and respectful toward you because the camera's are gone, you are sadly mistaken. 

Jasmine.  Go find a rich man who wants to be told how he feels and when he should feel it. 

God bless Will for not taking advantage of her willingness to have sex with him.  Not many men out there who would have been quite so chivalrous, no matter how happy she would have been.   Just ask Puke. 

As an only child I take offense to him using that as his excuse for being more abrasive than a cactus. He's a jerk who needs to grow all the way up. 

[Jade Foxx]

5 hours ago, Claire Voyant said:

Jazmine really lost me when she and Will were looking at their wedding pictures.  She said Will was so nervous.  Will said he wasn't nervous.  Jazmine said, "Yes, you were."  I wanted to smack her one upside her vapid head and tell her to stop trying to tell Will how he was feeling, how he should act, how he should provide, how he should think.  Honest to Pete, she was kind of a PITA. 

Exactly. Which is why I chuckled and said “haha Jazmine, IN YOUR FACE!!” when Will basically said nah, I’m good.

[Marsh]

22 hours ago, dirtypop90 said:

 I do believe Jas was blindsided because Will didn't tell her he wasn't attracted to her, when he so obviously isn't.  In fact, I think he told her the opposite, which is why she ignored the glaringly obvious signs that he wasn't physically attracted to her.  He could have at least whispered it to her when the cameras weren't rolling. 

As a guy, I 100% agree with how Will handled the situation.  You can never tell a woman that you aren't attracted to her.  Under any circumstance. It will completely destroy her self-esteem.  Instead that's when you say things like "I'm just not interested." / "I don't feel the connection."

Of course women want honesty.  But 99% of men will do this to avoid hurting your feelings. (The 1% is Puke)

Edited April 4, 2019 by Marsh
Error

[OnTime]

I'm now wondering if they had four couples this season because they wanted one to be a train wreck.

Isn't that terrible to think? Sorry, Kate.

Next season is also four couples!

[Nantango]

Jasmine is one of those women who believe that “high maintenance” is a compliment.

[lids]

10 hours ago, Marsh said:

As a guy, I 100% agree with how Will handled the situation.  You can never tell a woman that you aren't attracted to her.  Under any circumstance. It will completely destroy her self-esteem.  Instead that's when you say things like "I'm just not interested." / "I don't feel the connection."

Of course women want honesty.  But 99% of men will do to avoid hurting your feelings. (The 1% is Puke)

I know many men say this but I think that men avoid telling women their lack of attraction because they are afraid of how the woman will react - which is why I said it was cowardice on Will’s part.

We’ve all had to tell people we’re not attracted to them. It sucks whether you are a man or a woman. But women are not some delicate flower that will emotionally implode if we get rejected. I feel bad for Jasmine because she thinks she has some deep communication issue that pushed Will away (she does need to work on her communication, attitude, personality, but still). Will could have just said, “I’m just not that into you” or “I too want to become a monk” and she would have gotten it.

I can’t wait until Will shows up on social media with some hot Instagram-esque new girlfriend that was a fan of him on the show. He deserves it. But I don’t think Jasmine is a lost cause either. The process is doing her a disservice if it doesn’t help her read perspective mates better.

Edited April 4, 2019 by lids

[Yeah No]

9 hours ago, Marsh said:

As a guy, I 100% agree with how Will handled the situation.  You can never tell a woman that you aren't attracted to her.  Under any circumstance. It will completely destroy her self-esteem.  Instead that's when you say things like "I'm just not interested." / "I don't feel the connection."

Of course women want honesty.  But 99% of men will do to avoid hurting your feelings. (The 1% is Puke)

When I look back at my history with men, I would much rather have been told up front that a guy wasn't into me than been strung along for weeks wondering WTF was going on and thinking there was still hope.  Trust me, a woman gets hurt far more in this scenario than if a guy is open and honest with her from the get go.  Men think by not being clear they're sparing a woman's feelings but they are NOT.  The real reason men avoid it is not so much to avoid hurting a woman, because they're going to do that anyway, but to avoid BEING THE ONE to hurt a woman.  The way they end up doing it actually causes the most hurt and if they could take a minute to understand a woman and really care about her feelings they would realize that.

And Puke gave Kate mixed signals in the worst possible way.  He was saying one thing and doing another - having sex with her "because she wanted it" but then acting distant and repulsed afterward.  Once again, telling himself he's going to somehow make up for his true feelings and avoid hurting her feelings.  Seriously?  It's all just an excuse for selfish behavior.

Edited April 4, 2019 by Yeah No

[aphroditewitch]

9 hours ago, Marsh said:

As a guy, I 100% agree with how Will handled the situation.  You can never tell a woman that you aren't attracted to her.  Under any circumstance. It will completely destroy her self-esteem.  Instead that's when you say things like "I'm just not interested." / "I don't feel the connection."

Of course women want honesty.  But 99% of men will do to avoid hurting your feelings. (The 1% is Puke)

This is not the way to avoid hurting someone's feelings and it is worse. It is better to be honest and not give someone false hope. It is also not ok to do what Will did repeatedly which was put the blame all on  Jasmine.  

[Soup333]

31 minutes ago, aphroditewitch said:

This is not the way to avoid hurting someone's feelings and it is worse. It is better to be honest and not give someone false hope. It is also not ok to do what Will did repeatedly which was put the blame all on  Jasmine.  

Methinks there may be some revisionist history going on here in regards to Will and Jasmine. When did Will put it all on her? He said that eventually she would see that divorce was the right decision for both of them. That he couldn't give her what she wants and he wanted her to be happy. How is that blaming her for anything?

They were just a bad match. They don't have the same values or dreams. Unequally yoked. That's it. 

[aphroditewitch]

4 minutes ago, Soup333 said:

Methinks there may be some revisionist history going on here in regards to Will and Jasmine. When did Will put it all on her? He said that eventually she would see that divorce was the right decision for both of them. That he couldn't give her what she wants and he wanted her to be happy. How is that blaming her for anything?

They were just a bad match. They don't have the same values or dreams. Unequally yoked. That's it. 

During the entire marriage he was putting it on her when he made it about her communication and when he lied repeatedly. When they were in the car on the way to the mini moon and she was unhappy about the other day and he acted like she was crazy for being upset even though he was the one who said hurtful things to her. 

He doesn't care whether Jasmine is happy, he cares about his own. Yet during the weeks of the show it was all about what Jasmine could do to make him happy. He did absolutely nothing to see what he could do for her. 

The one true thing he said was that divorce would be good for them both. But not for the reasons Will thinks. Like I said earlier, I feel bad for any woman who dates Will in the future because he lies and he is never going to be considerate of her needs. 

[Soup333]

22 minutes ago, aphroditewitch said:

During the entire marriage he was putting it on her when he made it about her communication and when he lied repeatedly. When they were in the car on the way to the mini moon and she was unhappy about the other day and he acted like she was crazy for being upset even though he was the one who said hurtful things to her. 

He doesn't care whether Jasmine is happy, he cares about his own. Yet during the weeks of the show it was all about what Jasmine could do to make him happy. He did absolutely nothing to see what he could do for her. 

The one true thing he said was that divorce would be good for them both. But not for the reasons Will thinks. Like I said earlier, I feel bad for any woman who dates Will in the future because he lies and he is never going to be considerate of her needs. 

But that's your interpretation of events. I don't see it that way at all. 

I do remember there being some conversation about something that happened at the wedding but I don't remember what that was so I can't comment on whether he lied or not but I don't see him as this lying, selfish, lazy dud as some of y'all do.

Jasmine wants something completely different from who Will is and it's likely he feels the same. We know that she wants a man who is a provider but who will allow her to run things. Will wants a partnership. It wouldn't have been right for either of them to compromise on their core beliefs.

[aphroditewitch]

2 minutes ago, Soup333 said:

But that's your interpretation of events. I don't see it that way at all. 

I do remember there being some conversation about something that happened at the wedding but I don't remember what that was so I can't comment on whether he lied or not but I don't see him as this lying, selfish, lazy dud as some of y'all do.

Jasmine wants something completely different from who Will is and it's likely he feels the same. We know that she wants a man who is a provider but who will allow her to run things. Will wants a partnership. It wouldn't have been right for either of them to compromise on their core beliefs.

Except it is not just my interpretation because they were talking about  it and he lied. The flashback confirmed her version of events, not his. 

Will claims that he wants a partnership. But he can't have a partnership if he is unwilling to do his share of the work in a relationship. And it is not just about Jasmine. Will supposedly has a good job and his own home, but he is still single.  I'm would be willing to bet he put off a lot of women over the years with his behavior. 

[Soup333]

3 minutes ago, aphroditewitch said:

Except it is not just my interpretation because they were talking about  it and he lied. The flashback confirmed her version of events, not his. 

Will claims that he wants a partnership. But he can't have a partnership if he is unwilling to do his share of the work in a relationship. And it is not just about Jasmine. Will supposedly has a good job and his own home, but he is still single.  I'm would be willing to bet he put off a lot of women over the years with his behavior. 

No, it is your interpretation that he treated her as if she was crazy when they were talking about the kissing exercise. I didn't think he treated her badly in that moment. Although I do think he could have been more gracious in his rating.

If he's put women off over the years the same could be said of Jasmine. She's younger but also single. Perhaps her penchant for wanting to run the show is a turn off to men. 

[aphroditewitch]

16 minutes ago, Soup333 said:

No, it is your interpretation that he treated her as if she was crazy when they were talking about the kissing exercise. I didn't think he treated her badly in that moment. Although I do think he could have been more gracious in his rating.

If he's put women off over the years the same could be said of Jasmine. She's younger but also single. Perhaps her penchant for wanting to run the show is a turn off to men. 

When someone lies, they have already proven themselves to be in the wrong. And Will lied about what happened. And this was not the first time that happened. I went back and rewatched the scene. 

Jasmine said at the beginning of the season that she had lived with someone for several years but it ended because she wanted kids and he did not. Also I was not talking about Jasmine, I was talking about Will and his behavior. His behavior has nothing to do with Jasmine. Jasmine did not force Will to lie repeatedly through the season. 

To me there is nothing else to say about it. Good people do not spend so much time lying and Will lies constantly. That is not something a good guy does. 

Edited April 4, 2019 by aphroditewitch

[Ilovepie]

With regards to Will & Jas, I think this show puts people in a no win situation if they really are not attracted to the person selected for them. When they are genuinely nice, such as Will or say, Danielle, I just don’t think they want to say it. It’s a really crappy situation when this happens because you are on tv and MARRIED to this person you just met. Plus you are contractually obligated to stay. Plus the added pressure from the experts and producers! If it was a regular dating situation, it’s normally pretty easy to deflect and get away from the person you don’t click with without having to overtly hurt their feelings. Here, there’s just no point of reference for how to nicely navigate this particular mine field, and who is Will supposed to get advice from to help him get through this, trying to keep both of them relatively unscathed? This is why he kept saying “communication”, or Danielle was saying “I’m trying to get there”. It’s just a damned if you do, damned if you don’t situation. I think he did the best he could and he chose to be honest when it counted and not drag it out even further despite even more pressure from “the experts”. Was he perfect? No, but he is human, and I think he did ok.

[Soup333]

6 minutes ago, aphroditewitch said:

When someone lies, they have already proven themselves to be in the wrong. And Will lied about what happened. And this was not the first time that happened. I went back and rewatched the scene. 

Jasmine said at the beginning of the season that she had lived with someone for several years but it ended because she wanted kids and he did not. Also I was not talking about Jasmine, I was talking about Will and his behavior. His behavior has nothing to do with Jasmine. Jasmine did not force Will to lie repeatedly through the season. 

To me there is nothing else to say about it. Good people do not spend so much time lying and Will lies constantly. That is not something a good guy does. 

As I've said, I don't remember the conversation where they were looking back on the wedding - besides when she insisted he was nervous even though he said he wasn't. So I can't address whatever lies you're saying he told at that time.

But this is what I mean by revisionist history. Now Will is a habitual liar? I watched this entire season and didn't see that at all so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I suppose somewhere in this world there is an educated man (graduating from Lincoln is a plus!) with a well-paying job (also a neat freak) who has no dreams that aren't moneymakers. He won't hesitate to allow Jasmine to keep her money for herself while he pays all the bills until they have children (SOON!) and then she can stay at home and cook, clean and provide sex because that's ALL it takes to be a 10+ wife. 

[aphroditewitch]

4 minutes ago, Soup333 said:

As I've said, I don't remember the conversation where they were looking back on the wedding - besides when she insisted he was nervous even though he said he wasn't. So I can't address whatever lies you're saying he told at that time.

This is not the time I was talking about. I mentioned earlier that I was talking about when they were in the car on the way to the mini moon. I never once mentioned when they were looking back at the weddings. 

Edited April 4, 2019 by aphroditewitch

[Liberty]

19 hours ago, aphroditewitch said:

 Neil choosing to divorce Sam 

Neil was a nice man continually abused by her.

Edited April 4, 2019 by Liberty

[gonecrackers]

1 minute ago, Ilovepie said:

With regards to Will & Jas, I think this show puts people in a no win situation if they really are not attracted to the person selected for them. When they are genuinely nice, such as Will or say, Danielle, I just don’t think they want to say it. It’s a really crappy situation when this happens because you are on tv and MARRIED to this person you just met. Plus you are contractually obligated to stay. Plus the added pressure from the experts and producers! If it was a regular dating situation, it’s normally pretty easy to deflect and get away from the person you don’t click with without having to overtly hurt their feelings. Here, there’s just no point of reference for how to nicely navigate this particular mine field, and who is Will supposed to get advice from to help him get through this, trying to keep both of them relatively unscathed? This is why he kept saying “communication”, or Danielle was saying “I’m trying to get there”. It’s just a damned if you do, damned if you don’t situation. I think he did the best he could and he chose to be honest when it counted and not drag it out even further despite even more pressure from “the experts”. Was he perfect? No, but he is human, and I think he did ok.

Well put... they were both in a bad situation together. Will bumbled through it; I don't think he handled it perfectly. He does not strike me as a liar - he did strike me as a person in a very awkward situation not able to properly handle it. And there was no one for him to go to for help - Pastor Cal was not his fan & made a stupid comment on the 'expert' commentary show about how Will "should just make love to his wife" - what a prick to say that. If he had said that about a woman holding out he would've been destroyed (hopefully) in comments. Cal would never have supported Will's concerns had he been honest. Will had to play it best he could for several weeks. I can't blame him for sleeping most of the time, & it was most likely avoidance, which again I can't blame him since Jasmine was always all over him. At least he didn't use her for sex for a few weeks; I do respect that about him.

[aphroditewitch]

2 minutes ago, Liberty said:

Neil was a nice man continually abused by her.

Sam was a terrible pick for the show. She was too closed off and was really cruel to Neil. She seems to have learned from how terrible she was. 

[Crazy Bird Lady]

About Keith being called "lazy": Dialysis tech is hard work and very stressful. It's an honest living --but a meager one.

I've wondered why Keith didn't get further in medicine while living with Grandma. My guess: he probably spent years wasting his life and/or trying to make sense of his dad (and why he didn't really have one). That situation is toxic for a young man. Getting that Dialysis Tech job was a major achievement, regardless of the salary and the hours.

Keith does have goals, however, and with a woman like Krystine by his side (if she stays) Keith could still achieve a lot.

Wanting to get into Med School and become a Dr. probably won't work out, especially since he wants kids asap... Doctors end up in debt up to their ears long before they ever have an M.D. 

But there are paths in pretty much every big city that make it possible for hard-working students to get nursing degrees, even advanced nursing degrees, while working a full-time job. 

It just isn't easy. 

[Soup333]

26 minutes ago, aphroditewitch said:

This is not the time I was talking about. I mentioned earlier that I was talking about when they were in the car on the way to the mini moon. I never once mentioned when they were looking back at the weddings. 

13 hours ago, aphroditewitch said:

He lied about several things. When they were talking about the wedding day he claimed she did something and she said she didn't. Then the flashback supported her version. When she was upset in the car on the way to the mini moon, he acted like she had nothing to be upset about but he was not nice to her with his comments during the kissing game and he again lied about it and again the flashback showed that. So for all the criticism of Jasmine putting him down, he was doing his fair share of putting her down as well. 

This is what I was referring to but I remember it now. They were talking about the kiss and he was saying she turned her head away or something along those lines. If I recall the flashback showed that she pulled away and smiled. It was really ambiguous and I didn't read that as Will lying. Maybe he felt, with his admitted insecurities, that she turned away or wasn't happy with him/the kiss. I don't know but I do not peg him as a liar for that.

[SandyMac12]

Will & Jas - obvious from the beginning that he wasn't attracted to her, but was obligated to give it a go. Sometimes a person becomes more attractive to you once you get to know them - but Jas has zero personality, and just wants someone to pay all her bills.  I think Will got it right.

AJ & Steph - a lot of people say he's a jerk, but I think he's just insecure, plus short-tempered, which he admits & is willing to work on it. It can be done. Steph's willing to give him that chance - she's a very secure person - if AJ doesn't really make the change, and grow up, she will have no problem kicking him to the curb!

Keith & Kristine - He, too, got motivated to work on himself, get off the couch, and learn something new.  Seems like that's what saved it for them, and they are both attracted to each other, too - no problems there. I think they have a real chance.

Luke & Kate - I said from the beginning that I felt like Luke had some other agenda - at first I thought he just wanted notoriety for his speed dating business, but after he kissed Kate & said he felt disgusted & dead inside, my thoughts turned to, "maybe he's struggling & coming to terms with being gay?"  Either way, he is not a nice person - that smug look on his face while staring without speaking - then blaming it on her drinking.  He has no tact, no class, no grace. On D-day, I thought, "Kate, if you say you want to stay married to this douche, I will kick your ass!"  Kate's broken speech:  words - pause - words - pause - drove me crazy, and so did her hair & frumpy style - she's a pretty gal, and could be really stunning if she wanted to - but who could blame her for not going all out?

I'm looking forward to the next season... at first I  thought it was a ridiculous concept, but now I find it interesting...

[aphroditewitch]

5 hours ago, Soup333 said:

This is what I was referring to but I remember it now. They were talking about the kiss and he was saying she turned her head away or something along those lines. If I recall the flashback showed that she pulled away and smiled. It was really ambiguous and I didn't read that as Will lying. Maybe he felt, with his admitted insecurities, that she turned away or wasn't happy with him/the kiss. I don't know but I do not peg him as a liar for that.

1. That was from an earlier post then the one from this morning. 2.  That is your interpretation of how Will was acting. His version of events didn't match what actually happened. And that is one of the big problems with Will, his revisionist history doesn't match what happened. No wonder Jasmine felt frustrated. He did not know how to communicate yet she was made to feel like she was the problem. 

Edited April 4, 2019 by aphroditewitch

[Elizzikra]

Quote

Good people do not spend so much time lying and Will lies constantly.

What has Will lied about?

Quote

I've wondered why Keith didn't get further in medicine while living with Grandma.

Maybe he was happy where he was and didn't want anything different? Could be after however long he has spent as a dialysis tech, he's now realized he wants to do something different in healthcare? Or he's been saving money for tuition? Or just hasn't yet been ready to take on the difficult task of working and going to school at the same time?

[Soup333]

32 minutes ago, aphroditewitch said:

1. That was from an earlier post then the one from this morning. 2.  That is your interpretation of how Will was acting. His version of events didn't match what actually happened. And that is one of the big problems with Will, his revisionist history doesn't match what happened. No wonder Jasmine felt frustrated. He did not know how to communicated yet she was made to feel like she was the problem. 

I don't think it makes a difference when it was posted. In your eyes Will lies constantly and that kiss kerfuffle is one of the incidents you're recounting. Yes, it it my reading. I don't feel like he was lying to her when he said she pulled/turned away and she said she didn't. He may have been wrong in that instance but that doesn't make him a liar. 

2 hours ago, aphroditewitch said:

Except it is not just my interpretation because they were talking about  it and he lied. The flashback confirmed her version of events, not his. 

Will claims that he wants a partnership. But he can't have a partnership if he is unwilling to do his share of the work in a relationship. And it is not just about Jasmine. Will supposedly has a good job and his own home, but he is still single.  I'm would be willing to bet he put off a lot of women over the years with his behavior. 

This is referring to the wedding flashback, is it not? 

[Adeejay]

I agree with the poster that said Danielle and Will were clearly not attracted to their partners, but probably didn't speak up for fear of hurting their feelings.  In Danielle's case however, she chose to remain married to Cody; months later they quietly divorced.  Her decision led viewers to question whether the couples are financially compensated if they decide to stay together on Decision Day.

I think I know what the experts did on D-Day with Jas/Will and Kate/Luke.  They made Jas declare first knowing that she wanted to stay, with the hope that Will would feel pressured to reciprocate.  Hence Dr. Cal's outburst about being very disappointed with his decision.  I believe they were afraid if Luke went first, he'd opt to stay and Kate would feel obligated to do likewise and they most certainly didn't want that.

[Neurochick]

16 hours ago, Ohwell said:

Jasmine Miss Lincoln U. always gave me the impression that she thinks her shit don't stink.  Will seems to be much more down to earth.

That was my impression of her too.  She's probably look down her nose at me because of where I grew up.  

I did think Will was honest.  He wasn't into her.  Maybe Jasmine wanted him to spell it out, "I'm Not Into You."  

But who knows, maybe they'll be together by the reunion.  Stranger things have happened.

[discoprincessthe2]

22 minutes ago, Adeejay said:

I agree with the poster that said Danielle and Will were clearly not attracted to their partners, but probably didn't speak up for fear of hurting their feelings.  In Danielle's case however, she chose to remain married to Cody; months later they quietly divorced.  Her decision led viewers to question whether the couples are financially compensated if they decide to stay together on Decision Day.

I think I know what the experts did on D-Day with Jas/Will and Kate/Luke.  They made Jas declare first knowing that she wanted to stay, with the hope that Will would feel pressured to reciprocate.  Hence Dr. Cal's outburst about being very disappointed with his decision.  I believe they were afraid if Luke went first, he'd opt to stay and Kate would feel obligated to do likewise and they most certainly didn't want that.

Producer-manipulated drama until the very end! 😁

If I recall correctly, Danielle admitted to the camera - at least in her talking heads - that she was waiting and hoping to feel some "spark" with Cody. So, she admitted out loud that she really wasn't attracted to her spouse. I don't think Will ever did that.

[Marsh]

14 hours ago, Marsh said:

As a guy, I 100% agree with how Will handled the situation.  You can never tell a woman that you aren't attracted to her.  Under any circumstance. It will completely destroy her self-esteem.  Instead that's when you say things like "I'm just not interested." / "I don't feel the connection."

Of course women want honesty.  But 99% of men will do this to avoid hurting your feelings. (The 1% is Puke)

This forum is probably 90% female so it's difficult to understand why men do what we do. But this is how the majority of us act.  This is how we are programmed / raised / etc.  It has nothing to do with being a coward for not being honest, we just don't want to hurt your feelings.  Some people are making it sound like you're either a coward for not telling the truth or a jerk for telling the truth (cause it will hurt). 

So...staying in the middle is best for all parties.  Bending the truth, or going around it.

I'm with you Will. I understand. 

Edited April 4, 2019 by Marsh
Fixed

[aphroditewitch]

7 minutes ago, Soup333 said:

I don't think it makes a difference when it was posted. In your eyes Will lies constantly and that kiss kerfuffle is one of the incidents you're recounting. Yes, it it my reading. I don't feel like he was lying to her when he said she pulled/turned away and she said she didn't. He may have been wrong in that instance but that doesn't make him a liar. 

This is referring to the wedding flashback, is it not? 

It does make him a liar when what he claimed something happened and it did not. That is how lies work. And not only that, he lied about someone else claiming they did something that they did not do and something that Jasmine knew she did not do. And maybe to him it seemed insignificant. But when he and Dr. Jessica came after Jasmine regarding communication, while he is sitting there having told lies, it is completely unfair to her. If he wants to lie to and about himself that is one thing but he was lying to and about Jasmine. And it was not a one time thing, he did it repeatedly during those weeks. 

And the thing is the audience did it to Jasmine too. People kept saying that Jasmine was looking down on where he grew up but nothing she said or did during that episode involved looking down on his past. If anything she seemed appreciative of how his friends had been a support system for him. 

That was not referring to the wedding it was referring to his lies before the mini moon. 

Again I think it is good that they are going to divorce but not for the reasons that other people are talking about. Will did not treat Jasmine nicely on numerous occasions and was given a pass on it all season. I think a decent guy would have gone about it a better way and would have been able to realistically talk about Jasmine's expectations by showing her why the situation her parents had is not realistic anymore. But Will would just get upset that he felt Jasmine wasn't supportive of his own unrealistic goals while shooting down hers at the same time.  He didn't put in effort at all. 

[seacliffsal]

Sometimes people don't remember things as they happened.  I happen to have a REALLY good memory, but others don't and I have to pick the times to call them out as one can't do that continually and it's not always worth it.  Perhaps Will really did just misremember something.  Being wrong doesn't always equate lying.  Just the other day I had a student who was insistent that she turned something in.  I could observe that she whole heartedly believed what she was saying.  So, no surprise when she turned it in the next day and said she was mistaken.  I believe that she was mistaken-I do not believe that she lied.  

[aphroditewitch]

2 minutes ago, seacliffsal said:

Sometimes people don't remember things as they happened.  I happen to have a REALLY good memory, but others don't and I have to pick the times to call them out as one can't do that continually and it's not always worth it.  Perhaps Will really did just misremember something.  Being wrong doesn't always equate lying.  Just the other day I had a student who was insistent that she turned something in.  I could observe that she whole heartedly believed what she was saying.  So, no surprise when she turned it in the next day and said she was mistaken.  I believe that she was mistaken-I do not believe that she lied.  

If it happened once, I might believe that. but it kept happening with Will. 

[lids]

2 hours ago, Marsh said:

This forum is probably 90% female so it's difficult to understand why men do what we do. But this is how the majority of us act.  This is how we are programmed / raised / etc.  It has nothing to do with being a coward for not being honest, we just don't want to hurt your feelings.  Some people are making it sound like you're either a coward for not telling the truth or a jerk for telling the truth (cause it will hurt). 

So...staying in the middle is best for all parties.  Bending the truth, or going around it.

I don’t think it’s hard to understand, but you being one of the few men here, I appreciate you pointing it out.

The whole premise of the book He’s Just Not That Into You is built around this scenario. I’m not going to repeat it because the book gets used to death but the exert is here: https://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/features/just-not-that-into-you

In the end, I agree with you but men build companies and corporations. They start wars and make universal peace treaties. If they wanted to figure out how to communicate with someone they are attracted to, we would all know. Even if they failed miserably. Will was not trying. If it was just effort and communication that Will was looking for, when Jas was crying and saying she wanted to stay married, he would have acquiesced. He didn’t want to try.

Also, we all agree that Luke is using “Kate has a drinking problem” as an excuse. It’s a red herring period. I’m just saying Will is using something similar with the whole elusive communication issue.

Edited April 4, 2019 by lids

[Ohwell]

The main thing I'll remember about Will is his eyes darting around like he was looking for someone to help him.  While I do believe that he and Jasmine can remain Lincoln U. friends, I just don't see him changing his mind about his decision.  I hope I'm right.