S09.E16: The Storm

[diebartdie]

1 hour ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Civilization shouldn't have to fall back beyond the Industrial Age. The pipes were for steam power for generators or to run machines. They just need a water/steam supply, like water tanks for rain, or a river.

Well they also need things like engineering know-how at a bare minimum. And ok, sure there are libraries all over the place but really, it takes time to become skilled, that's part of why Henry was sent off to Hilltop. So many people have died, there are many people with no relevant skills, they are just doing the best they can. So far as we know, The Kingdom was falling into disrepair before the ZA happened so really, Ezekial and his people were lucky to have made it as long as they did there. Also, fire is a very serious threat for all these people. At best, each settlement MIGHT have some sort of fire brigade but more likely people havent even thought that far ahead. That would explain why 1/4 or more of The Kingdom looked burned t the point of unsuitability.

Thing is though, if the show is willing to make the effort to show this decay, how do TPTB expect us to accept the whisperers? I mean we saw last night Elpha getting whipped hard enough to draw blood. Whisperers are not clean, in fact they are the opposite of clean. Having open wounds in that environment will absolutely lead to infections, like sepsis. Without prompt medical treatment, sepsis kills. So do gastroenteritis, hepatitis B and C, HIV, enteric intestinal pathogens, tuberculosis, cholera and others diseases can all be caught by messing with cadavers like that (wikipedia).

ALSO, seems to me if the whisperers are willing and able to head to damn Florida for the winter, why the hell wouldnt they just STAY THERE? Elpha's a mean lazy fuck, I think she would stay down there.

[alrightythen]

All I kept thinking was, 1) Why the hell weren't they prepared for winter to come?  2)  Isn't Aaron's place in Alexandria?  It seemed like they were trekking through the wilderness to get there. 

[Colorado David]

ok just me and against the general consensus here, but enjoyed this epi. I have shoveled out serious snow oh 30+ years, so it's a weird quiet world you live in during snowstorms. scary yes but kinda cathartic too, and I think (?) that's where the writers were trying to go. the isolationism and how frightening that can be.  judith and finding dog, yep as a pet owner that would so be me running off to find. Negan pursuing Judith, he's built a bond so yep wanting to protect/help her.   first question: ummm k Eugene, the flue and the buildup problem, dude you can't work out a solution for that???? YOU WORKED OUT MAKING BULLETS. chimney sweeping should NOT be above your intellect.    second: OMG ok we're making this a daryl/carol/zeke drama re romance.....get it but man timing is AWFUL. get to a safe place THEN figure out who's heart will go on. third...I do like Negan's pirate attitude, the total eff it let's figure it out and roll with it, kinda me at work. not efficient, but entertaining.

[iMonrey]

Quote

And while our intrepid main characters were fighting against gale-force winds, snow and freezing weather, we see the Whisperers in some place that is snow-free and where the trees are still flush with green leaves. OK, perhaps they migrated South, but they are doing so on foot, and with a hundred or so people in tow (unless they left those interspersed members of the herd shown to Daryl left behind).  Just how far South could this group have made it in the short time jump indicated?

And let's not forget how slowly they move. They shuffle along within hoards of walkers. 

Quote

They did NOT abandon it to trek though a snowstorm with limited food supplies. There was NO snowstorm when they left. The weather was fine; it was barely snowing. They had NO IDEA there was going to be a snowstorm.

They have heard of winter before, though, right?

[FishyJoe]

So why do some walkers freeze solid and other don't? Makes no sense how a cold blooded creature could have any strength at all in the cold. 

Also, how do the whisperers survive in the cold? All we've seen of the is their camp in the woods, which would be crazy cold even without the blizzard. Wouldn't they be kind of obvious wearing thick clothes? And it doesn't seem like a skin mask would provide any protection at all from the cold. It would probably make it worse. I can't imagine a more miserable life outside of a concentration camp. 

I'm really scratching why anyone would follow the nutjob whisperers, let alone risk their lives for it. At least Negan gave people a reason to do the things they do. All Alpha seems to do is kill and bully people. And all people get in return is suffering and death. 

And how big can the whisperers territory really be? We haven't seen them using horses or vehicles. They don't carry large packs of supplies. How far can someone who mopes around all day in a disgusting skin suit travel in a day without carrying much food and water? Even highly conditioned soldiers carrying large packs of high quality gear have a limited range they can patrol. 

Edited April 2, 2019 by FishyJoe

[Mu Shu]

1 hour ago, alrightythen said:

All I kept thinking was, 1) Why the hell weren't they prepared for winter to come?  2)  Isn't Aaron's place in Alexandria?  It seemed like they were trekking through the wilderness to get there. 

God, I had no idea this was within the walls of Alex.  I thought they were trekking to hilltop.  

[AngelaHunter]

8 hours ago, iMonrey said:

And if I'm supposed to be shaking in my boots at the sight of Alpha getting her arms whipped, then WTF. This is probably the silliest villain the show has ever come up with, and that's saying a lot.

I thought a boring villain like Negan was bad, but I agree a silly villain is much worse. If she's into flagellation, at least go all the way, do it up right, and not that "silly" arm whuppin'. Can't they find a buggy whip somewhere?

5 hours ago, Ohwell said:

Michonne is not raising that child right AT ALL.    

She needs to talk to the kid the way Sandra Bullock talked to hers in that dreadful "Bird Box": "If you__________again, I WILL hurt you. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?"

[Colorado David]

not to be a dick, but does anyone celebrate birthdays or holidays anymore? i'd need that as a survivor, just as a positive to look forward to in such shit days. i need some gd thing to look forward to

[walnutqueen]

3 hours ago, alrightythen said:

All I kept thinking was, 1) Why the hell weren't they prepared for winter to come?  2)  Isn't Aaron's place in Alexandria?  It seemed like they were trekking through the wilderness to get there. 

I just have to tell you how much I lurve your screen name.  One of my favorite things to say.

2 minutes ago, Colorado David said:

not to be a dick, but does anyone celebrate birthdays or holidays anymore? i'd need that as a survivor, just as a positive to look forward to in such shit days. i need some gd thing to look forward to

I hate birthdays and all holidays.  But I mark every goddamned death day of all my cats - and my dear Mum.

If you're looking for positive, keep on walkin'.

[maystone]

5 hours ago, valandsend said:

That's how I saw it, too, which means there was no reason to be worried about crossing into the Whisperers' territory because they weren't there.

Well, our guys didn't know that, but also there were some Whisperers tracking them early on in their journey. What I want to know is what happens to Elpha's megaherd when the Whisperers migrate? I doubt they all come with. Just leave them penned up? Inquiring minds would like to know.

19 minutes ago, Colorado David said:

not to be a dick, but does anyone celebrate birthdays or holidays anymore? i'd need that as a survivor, just as a positive to look forward to in such shit days. i need some gd thing to look forward to

Herschel was your guy then. And nothing says that you can't just whip up a holiday whenever you want.

[walnutqueen]

8 minutes ago, maystone said:

And nothing says that you can't just whip up a holiday whenever you want.

I celebrate every 4 years during the Winter Olympics.  HAAAAAAAARD!!!

[Giselle]

Interesting that Negan was the one running after Shane's daughter. Michone it's him.

Talking Dead question? Who was the lady in the demonnic fright mask? She shouldn't be wearing red lipstick with those teeth. 

[Nashville]

20 hours ago, mightysparrow said:

I hope Ms. Kang didn't purchase a house in Atlanta.

Chandler Riggs probably made her a good deal on some Georgia real estate.

6 hours ago, iMonrey said:

What the hell happened to the Kingdom? I get that they had some plumbing issues but this was a thriving community. Were they really that reliant on their pipes? 

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

There has to be something more to the downfall of the Kingdom than just bad plumbing.

Just a friendly FYI - but outside of a passing visual similarity there’s a world of difference between plumbing pipes and steam pipes, in both function and potential for destruction.

Personally I think the show punted in this respect, but the entire story of the Kingdom’s demise was told in the Ezekiel voiceover segment before the opening credits:

————————-

[Opening backdrop image - Ezekiel talking on radio]

Finally broke - and we can't fix it.

I kept trying to hold on.  We did.  But things fall apart. 

[Backdrop change: close-up of a boiler pressure gauge with the needle in the red; camera draws back to wider image of boiler room - steam and water everywhere, hissing from (presumably) pressure-cracked pipes, and people struggling with steam valves]

The cold set in.  Fires raged.  the rot spread.

[Backdrop change: Ezekiel and Carol in their bedroom - both mournful-looking, neither talking to each other.]

It's knowing when to keep fighting, and knowing when it's over - if only for now.

[Backdrop change: Kingdom people outside - some loading wagons, some sitting at outside tables, some eating. Center of shot: Lydia sitting alone at an empty table.]

We need help.  

Shelter - from the storms to come.

[Backdrop: Daryl approaches Lydia with plate of food; hands Lydia the plate and says, "Make sure you eat somethin'.  We gotta get these people to Hilltop."  Lydia looks up at Daryl, and behind him we see the balcony of the Post Theatre from which Ezekiel announced the opening of the Faire - but now the roof is gone, and the facade is marred with damage from fire and smoke.]

There follows some schmaltzy Ezekiel-style theatrical oratory over shots of people packing up prized possessions, but most significant are the closing shots of the Kingdom people leaving the Kingdom - most specifically the last wide-view shot of the Kingdom property, with multiple buildings (of nearly identical style) ALL showing caved-in roofs and fire damage - as the very first snowflakes start to fall.

——————-

Based on both the visuals and the voiceover, here was my takeaway:

1. The Kingdom property was originally a consolidated complex of some sort (a college campus, maybe?) of early/mid-1900s construction, a time when steam heating (from a central boiler plant throughout the complex via a network of pipes and radiators) was still relatively common practice.  
2. The steam heating system has been acting up for quite a long while, but the Kingdomers were able to keep it limping along (all the more surprising because not one of these damn fools really has any idea what the hell they’re doing)....
3. ...until an unexpected and severe cold spell set in quickly, that is, and a boiler system held together with spit and baling wire was quickly overtaxed.
4. The boiler’s pressure regulation system jammed up, and the boiler went haywire - a system which should have been running in the 40 psi range was pegging its pressure gauge in the red, at 100 psi plus.
5. Such an overloaded system is almost certain to fail, and this one was no exception - and a severely overpressurized steam system fails catastrophically, not quietly.  Things get REAL explodey REAL quick - like, in a fraction of a second quick - and things like a building’s roof or walls aren’t going going to stop it; hell, they won’t even slow it down.  Picture a locomotive going through a house in the time it takes you to snap your fingers, and you’ll get the idea.
6. At this point, one of two things happened: either the resulting explosion (or explosions - there may have been more than one) set off a fire, or people started building fires to compensate for the loss of the steam heat and those fires got out of control; either way, a blaze was set off which ran rampant through most (if not all) of the Kingdom complex.

End result: in the midst of a severe cold snap the entire population of the Kingdom suddenly finds itself with no heat and burned-out roofless buildings for shelter.  Time to pull up stakes and get moving, if they don’t want to freeze to death.

[OoohMaggie]

So team, we’ve got a problem, we need to explain how The Whisperers managed to survive sub zero temperatures that turned Walkers to glass.                                              

Seeing as they don’t have any suitcases which we could have shown contained their winter gear, and as we’ve said that they live as the animals do so hiding in a building is off the list, we need a get out.

How about if we get ‘Bayda’ to say “the time away has been good for the pack”. The fools will believe they’ve been away ‘someplace far’, we got away with it with Maggie.

Its good, but won’t people ask why a tribe of nomadic folk would have ‘time away’? 

No no, they’re be far to preoccupied with what a wonderful human being Negan is becoming, they won’t notice nonsense like that.

Thats it, get Kang on the phone!

Edited April 2, 2019 by OoohMaggie

[Cherokee Rose]

I think the previous episode would have made a much better season ending. Parts of that episode were quite well done, and its ending would've left more to ponder in the off season. It had a shocking ending without being an "ugly" cliff hanger; and had an inspiring final speech.

I really can't figure out what's going on this year. Here and there, there's some improved work; but there's no ability to sustain it for an entire episode, let alone an entire season. It's like having multiple-personality disorder, and that the same person can't have possibly written the entire episode. Again, as so often, this episode seemed misplaced.

Not that I didn't think the snows scenes were beautifully shot, and it was interesting to begin to explore what winter would be like. Though they were way too well-dressed for the circumstances. Far too much wind noise in the storm.

I live in the area. We get several big snow storms every 10-15 years (maybe 2 1/2 feet of snow, occasionally nearing blizzard criteria). But, they fogot to watch the weather channel! There's no way the storm could be that bad in the Sanctuary area, and then only have several inches of snow, with some grass showing, near HT. I get cut off for days to a week after a storm like that. And wade thru thigh-high snow. How did they go to Alexandria the next day, and have a snow ball fight? Though it was quite a touching scene. Not impressed with RJ, as an actor. Like Judith a lot. Daryl is acting like a dad to Lydia, as Aaron did say he'd make a good dad someday. Daryl and Lydia surely understand each other.

Perhaps Alden is going to have some big issues next season, as he was so concerned if the Whisperers were watching them; and then when crossing the pond, was the only one who asked if "it was them."

I guess we'll have to hope that Judith and maybe Aaron can pass on the "stick" torch, as no one is left to carry on Morgan's fighting style legacy, with the loss of Jesus and Henry.

Much of Ezekiel's opening monolgue truly applied to what he and Carol are going thru. "I kept trying to hold on. We did. But things fall apart. Cold sets in. Fires rage. Rot spreads... it's knowing when to keep fighting..." Actually, that was well written, and also accompanied by action.... not just someone standing there giving a monologue. "We'll never forget the magic we felt in this place we love... " There have been several nice "speeches" this season.

I really liked this: "Cowards die many times before their death. The valiant never taste of death but once."

Lydia's focus at HT on the painting by Jadis, perhaps a portent to her return? Also, interesting that Lydia pushed Carol to stab her in the throat versus the brain. Did Lydia feel she didn't deserve anything but a "walking" death? I've grown to like Lydia a lot. And Yumiko and Magna. They've become key now, and are interesting characters. Not sure what HT would do if they hadn't taken them in now. Who will be its leader?

[Cherokee Rose]

19 minutes ago, OoohMaggie said:

So team, we’ve got a problem, we need to explain how The Whisperers managed to survive sub zero temperatures that turned Walkers to glass.

I thought that Beta said they moved out of the area for the winter, and that the change did them some good. It almost seemed like there was a mini-time jump from the end of the storm to when the whisperers were shown. No snow on the ground either. As the whisperers roam, are nomadic, and see themselves somewhat as animals... I guess they migrated south for the winter. And came back afterwards. Thought that was said on TTD, too.

[Cherokee Rose]

5 hours ago, maystone said:

What I want to know is what happens to Elpha's megaherd when the Whisperers migrate?

I think the whisperers do get the herd to migrate with them. To protect themselves, and to protect the herd. Lydia said they protected the walkers as the walkers protected them. If they didn't take the walkers with them, they wouldn't have them to use upon return. Though it's hard to believe that the whisperers could control a herd as large as what Alpha showed Daryl. Wonder how many whisperers there are? More than we think, I guess. As long as it's not the unending line of Saviors who never ran out of replacements!! lol

[Yodabeesh]

On 4/1/2019 at 12:23 AM, mightysparrow said:

I don't think enough focus was put on the fall of The Kingdom.  King Ezekiel is a king without a kingdom now and it's tragic because he (and Jerry) kept that place going for such a long time.  He also managed to keep the Saviours at bay during Negan's reign of terror.  How is King Ezekiel feel, living in Alexandria with Negan given some sort of freedom.  Negan and the Saviours gunned down most of Ezekiel's warriors, which is part of the reason The Kingdom failed.

It's clear that Kang is more interested in focusing on mopey teenagers, bratty little girls and redeeming a monster but there are other stories.  Maybe the show would be a bit more interesting if they utilized some of the humongous cast, instead of shoving the same old characters down our throat over and over again.

As a homeowner, I can empathize with Zeke. It sucks keeping up with home maintenance, so I can imagine that it exponentially sucks with a kingdom. Throw in the fact that your repairman/son never finished his apprenticeship...

[OoohMaggie]

3 hours ago, Cherokee Rose said:

I thought that Beta said they moved out of the area for the winter, and that the change did them some good. It almost seemed like there was a mini-time jump from the end of the storm to when the whisperers were shown.

I don’t know if he’s said it before but he didn’t mention Winter, that’s why I thought “the time away” comment was just a cheap arsed effort like Maggie’s explanation. S10 starts with Winter well over and back in the usual WD weather.

Still it was good to see it once in the show’s history,

https://ew.com/tv/2019/03/31/walking-dead-season-finale-storm-showrunner-angela-kang-916/

[Yodabeesh]

3 hours ago, OoohMaggie said:

So team, we’ve got a problem, we need to explain how The Whisperers managed to survive sub zero temperatures that turned Walkers to glass.                                              

Seeing as they don’t have any suitcases which we could have shown contained their winter gear, and as we’ve said that they live as the animals do so hiding in a building is off the list, we need a get out.

How about if we get ‘Bayda’ to say “the time away has been good for the pack”. The fools will believe they’ve been away ‘someplace far’, we got away with it with Maggie.

Its good, but won’t people ask why a tribe of nomadic folk would have ‘time away’? 

No no, they’re be far to preoccupied with what a wonderful human being Negan is becoming, they won’t notice nonsense like that.

Thats it, get Kang on the phone!

They shuffled their way hundreds of miles to Hilton Head SC with their herd. Easy hike down I-95 which they can pick up south of DC/Alexandria.

[Haleth]

I skipped last year's finale and I guess I'll skip this one too.  I didn't even watch last week, but I was hoping to read this week that Carol went all Terminus on the Whisperers, then I would catch up.  Very disappointing.

[seacliffsal]

This is my understanding of the situation and I'm sticking to it-they left the horses untethered inside the Sanctuary when they left.  The horses spent the night, then with the storm seemingly ending the next day (per the visuals of the arrival at Hilltop), the horses left and made their way to safety.  Hopefully away from all of these people who continually put the lives of the horses in danger.  There-I'm satisfied.  The horses were fine and in fact even bettered their living conditions (and I'm sticking with this story...).

As for the rest of the episode, I fast forwarded quite a bit of it, but, like others, I did not understand the tension they were trying to create within Alexandria.  It's a walled community.  The buildings and homes are not that far apart.  I think they were trying to create the tension of the episode when Rick and others were leaving a house and trying to blend in with the walkers until Sam starting blubbering and caused his death along with his mother's death (never understood why they had to leave the house at that time either...).  Dog probably knew he couldn't trust these people to keep him alive and safe so set out on his own only to be bothered by Judith and Negan and forced to return to danger.  

I also don't know how Hilltop survived the storm so well.  As we've seen throughout countless episodes, there's really only one significant structure there and most people live in wooden housing/barracks that don't have major heating systems or fire places.  Yet, at Hilltop in the room with the fire were mainly the refugees from the Kingdom.  Where were all of the Hilltoppers and how were they staying warm?  As for Alexandria, most of those homes seem to have fireplaces, so why didn't people just stay in their own homes with their own fireplaces?  I know, I know-I'm trying to make sense of this show when the writers themselves don't worry about making sense.

I know a lot of people really like Michonne but I just don't understand how she became the key leader of Alexandria (yes, they have a council, but she can veto any of their decisions).  She has never demonstrated leadership characteristics-she clearly has demonstrated survival skills, but those aren't the same.  She purposefully cut off interactions amongst the communities (she stated this in this episode) for the "safety" of Alexandria, yet purposefully kept the most dangerous person from all of the communities alive (Negan) and created an environment in which her DAUGHTER regularly spent time with him without her knowledge.  Yep, real safety there.  She intentionally hid from danger whereas Rick intentionally faced danger in order to protect his family.  Both of their styles led to death but the difference is the willingness to face danger and obstacles versus hoping they'll just go away.

[AngelaHunter]

6 hours ago, Cherokee Rose said:

I really liked this: "Cowards die many times before their death. The valiant never taste of death but once."

It was pretty great when Shakespeare wrote it too, and he didn't even get credited.

6 hours ago, OoohMaggie said:

Its good, but won’t people ask why a tribe of nomadic folk would have ‘time away’?

Time away from what, I wonder? A particular field, or clearing in the woods? But wouldn't they be in the same surroundings "away" since they have no actual homes or dwelling of any kind? Did they go to Florida? Can't see them kicking back and enjoying the sun and sand.

3 hours ago, OoohMaggie said:

I thought “the time away” comment was just a cheap arsed effort like Maggie’s explanation.

No doubt.

[FishyJoe]

So am I to understand the Kingdom fell because of some elaborate plumbing that humans have survived without for thousands of years?

[Nashville]

Okay, so a wee bit of explanation at the end of the S9 finale -the Whisperers and their herd went all Flock of Bitey Seagulls (and not a bit like coconuts) and migrated south for the winter, not returning to the Land of Impossible Geography until warmer weather returned.  Which carries some interesting implications for the story line:

• All that stealthy sneaking around the ex-Kingdom was doing to slip past the Whisperers?  Wasted effort - the Whisperers weren’t there to be sneaked past.
• Those walkers in the adjoining field moving parallel to the moveable feast - the ones Alden was ragging Lydia over?  Regular walkers, not the extra-stabby Whispery kind.  Betcha feel like an ultradick now, huh Alden?
• Which isn’t to say the Kingdom’s trek through WhisperLand will go unnoticed - or unpunished - even though nobody was around at the time to notice.  Why?  Because they violated the first cardinal rule of hiking: Leave No Trace.  This bunch left literally DOZENS of clear indicators to a non-Whisperer human trek through Whisperer territory; namely, walkers killed in ways which could not be ascribed to the natural elements (Daryl’s eyecicle kill being the sole exception).  When the spring thaw exposes the multitude of decapitated, sword-slashed, knife-spiked walkers to the discerning eyes of the Whisperers on their territory, think they won’t catch on - or retaliate?

[Nashville]

15 minutes ago, FishyJoe said:

So am I to understand the Kingdom fell because of some elaborate plumbing that humans have survived without for thousands of years?

Only if your “plumbing” does stuff like this when it acts up:

https://youtu.be/9c-wOGOr0io

https://youtu.be/7MxsKkAnLC0

If this is what you consider “plumbing” problems, then you may want to reconsider Chili Wednesdays.... 😉 

[ferretrick]

18 hours ago, alrightythen said:

All I kept thinking was, 1) Why the hell weren't they prepared for winter to come?  2)  Isn't Aaron's place in Alexandria?  It seemed like they were trekking through the wilderness to get there. 

Because even in a blizzard in the Zombie Apocalypse, the gays still throw the best parties.  

[FishyJoe]

47 minutes ago, Nashville said:

Only if your “plumbing” does stuff like this when it acts up:

https://youtu.be/9c-wOGOr0io

https://youtu.be/7MxsKkAnLC0

If this is what you consider “plumbing” problems, then you may want to reconsider Chili Wednesdays.... 😉 

Why do they even need to run steam boilers? To run their movie projector? It's sad they can't even keep a chimney vent clear. And what happened to all the smart people in the world with skills? If the smartest guy left in the world is Eugene, civilization is doomed. 

[Nashville]

1 minute ago, FishyJoe said:

Why do they even need to run steam boilers? To run their movie projector?

For heat.  Ever see an old-fashioned steam radiator in a classroom or apartment? The boiler’s where the steam comes from.

1 minute ago, FishyJoe said:

It's sad they can't even keep a chimney vent clear.

That was at Alexandria, not the Kingdom; it’s entirely possible, though, the “fires raged” because when the steam heat went out the Kingdom residents turned to long-disused fireplaces for heat in the cold, with similar results.  A number of the burned-out Kingdom buildings had not-so-good-looking chimneys:

1 minute ago, FishyJoe said:

And what happened to all the smart people in the world with skills? If the smartest guy left in the world is Eugene, civilization is doomed. 

They got et - to walkers, I’m sure those big brains looked MIGHTY tasty.  😄

[iMonrey]

Quote

So team, we’ve got a problem, we need to explain how The Whisperers managed to survive sub zero temperatures that turned Walkers to glass. 

Angela Kang confirmed the Whisperers moved south during the winter on Talking Dead. I thought the episode itself did a shit job explaining that though. We just see them somewhere at the end where the trees are still green and there's no snow. I guess we were supposed to draw our own conclusions but didn't they just make a big freaking deal on the last episode about their "territory?" Why the hell would they make an issue of having "territory" if they're not even there half the year? 

Honestly there's so little about the Whisperers that makes sense, they've got to be the silliest villains this show has ever come up with.

[FishyJoe]

9 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Angela Kang confirmed the Whisperers moved south during the winter on Talking Dead. I thought the episode itself did a shit job explaining that though. We just see them somewhere at the end where the trees are still green and there's no snow. I guess we were supposed to draw our own conclusions but didn't they just make a big freaking deal on the last episode about their "territory?" Why the hell would they make an issue of having "territory" if they're not even there half the year? 

Honestly there's so little about the Whisperers that makes sense, they've got to be the silliest villains this show has ever come up with.

So these people walked on foot to avoid a blizzard? Even with a car that would be a tall task as a storm can stretch hundreds of miles.  Do they have access to satellite weather forecasts or something? They would have to be super athletes to travel on foot to avoid a storm and that's not even accounting for all the supplies they would have to carry with them. 

[Nashville]

9 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Angela Kang confirmed the Whisperers moved south during the winter on Talking Dead. I thought the episode itself did a shit job explaining that though. We just see them somewhere at the end where the trees are still green and there's no snow.

But add Beta’s opening statement to Awful into the mix...

“The time away has been good for the pack - and for you.”

...and a temporary relocation to a warmer climate seems pretty  clear - to me, anyway.  YMMV

9 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I guess we were supposed to draw our own conclusions but didn't they just make a big freaking deal on the last episode about their "territory?" Why the hell would they make an issue of having "territory" if they're not even there half the year? 

[Josette]

23 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

I was referring to the pack of well-fed, purebred dogs chasing Negan.

Oh, gotcha. Well, I concede the Cane Corso had cropped ears.  The other two dogs were natural.

 Any dog can turn feral. We don't know how old those dogs were. : )

15 hours ago, maystone said:

What I want to know is what happens to Elpha's megaherd when the Whisperers migrate? I doubt they all come with. Just leave them penned up

I think on Talking Dead they said that the Whisperers took the herd with them.

[AngelaHunter]

So where would Alpha and crew go to escape the dead of winter? South Carolina? Did they walk over 300 miles? How long would that take? What did they eat along the way? Why am I trying to make sense of this?

[marcee]

And if they left for the winter, why would they come back? What does their current situation have that they couldn't find down South? They don't have a camp. They roam with herds of walkers. Aren't there herds of walkers *everywhere*? You'd have to assume there are groups of people down that way too if they just wanted someone to terrify for no reason at all. None of this makes any sense.

[Nashville]

2 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

So where would Alpha and crew go to escape the dead of winter? South Carolina?

I hear Boca Raton is real nice that time of year.  ;>

2 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

Did they walk over 300 miles? How long would that take?

Usual base figure for a relatively healthy adult walking across uneven rural terrain is 30 miles a day, give or take.

[Fun Fact: that’s part of where the distance measurement of a league (=3 miles) came from; it was the average distance a Roman legionnaire could march in an hour.  Roman commanders considered 10 leagues (30 miles) of marching a day a reasonable expectation for a legion to move without exhausting them.  The More You Know! ™ ]

2 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

What did they eat along the way?

Worms, grubs, old masks, etc. - you know, the usual.

2 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

Why am I trying to make sense of this?

Dunno - making nonsense out of this is a WHOLE lot more fun.  ;>

[nodorothyparker]

Alpha has told Daryl more than once now that "we're animals."  Lots of animals migrate with the weather.  Would it be less work to stay in one warmer spot?  Sure, but that's what animals do and she apparently considers herself some feral evolution of people to their animal state.  It's not a great answer but one I can go with.

Reading this, I'm feeling like I must be the only person living in a very old house with a steam boiler and radiators.  Plumbing is an entirely separate animal.  Some of the goofiness aside, I like that the show is at least trying to address the reality that after 10 or 11 years without proper maintenance by people with the proper materials or know-how, a lot of things should be wearing out and breaking down.  Again, see my earlier reference to living in an old house where it's a constant struggle against said house to keep that from happening even when we have access to people who do know what they're doing.

[AngelaHunter]

44 minutes ago, Nashville said:

 Roman commanders considered 10 leagues (30 miles) of marching a day a reasonable expectation

That is truly interesting,  but the skin-faces aren't trained Roman soldiers but people of varying ages and both sexes with little children(?) (unless Awful has fed all the babies to the walkers) who could never tramp 30 miles a day.  

50 minutes ago, marcee said:

And if they left for the winter, why would they come back?

For blackberry season? Yeah, why not stay someplace it's always warm? They can practice their evil ways anywhere. Hey, Kang?  Try 'splainin' this, please.

[Eulipian 5k]

2 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

57 minutes ago, marcee said:

And if they left for the winter, why would they come back?

For blackberry season? Yeah, why not stay someplace it's always warm? They can practice their evil ways anywhere. Hey, Kang?  Try 'splainin' this, please.

As a poster showed above  most animals "return" after winter, and its usually to eat the food that returns in spring. Setting up roots and dwellings is an anathema to Elpha's view of the Post ZA world.

No explaining needed "its all in the dialog"; give the writers a break. We really don't want a speech from EuGenius about the wherefores and why-fores of post Apocalyptic Nomads and the Brownian Motion of undead hordes.

[maystone]

52 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

Alpha has told Daryl more than once now that "we're animals."  Lots of animals migrate with the weather.  Would it be less work to stay in one warmer spot?  Sure, but that's what animals do and she apparently considers herself some feral evolution of people to their animal state.  It's not a great answer but one I can go with.

Reading this, I'm feeling like I must be the only person living in a very old house with a steam boiler and radiators.  Plumbing is an entirely separate animal.  Some of the goofiness aside, I like that the show is at least trying to address the reality that after 10 or 11 years without proper maintenance by people with the proper materials or know-how, a lot of things should be wearing out and breaking down.  Again, see my earlier reference to living in an old house where it's a constant struggle against said house to keep that from happening even when we have access to people who do know what they're doing.

I lived in an apartment in MA in the mid 90s that had a steam boiler; part of our rent agreement was to truck down to the partial dirt-floor basement every evening to check on the water level in the boiler. To me, the sound of hissing steam and clanking pipes is the sound of heat in winter.

I'm sorry for the Kingdom, but I agree it was important to show that not everything can be fixed by spit, duct tape, and wishful thinking.

[marcee]

26 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Setting up roots and dwellings is an anathema to Elpha's view of the Post ZA world.

Exactly, so why return? There's spring everywhere, even down "south". There's stuff growing everywhere. If they don't have a home... if they keep moving and wandering... if we've never seen them before because they don't actually live 'round those parts -- WHY COME BACK? They don't make sense to begin with, why should they start making sense now.

[nodorothyparker]

For whatever reason, Alpha has staked out these nearby areas she considers "her territory."  Look at the history of nomadic groups of people or animals.  If they don't engage in any farming or trading, they have to keep moving around to avoid exhausting the local food supply.  Earlier in the season, Zeke mentioned that they had been seeing and trying to hunt elk.  They may be following animal herds that are coming back in the absence of civilization.

[OoohMaggie]

36 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

I like that the show is at least trying to address the reality that after 10 or 11 years without proper maintenance by people with the proper materials or know-how, a lot of things should be wearing out and breaking down. 

And as well it should, what it shouldn’t do however is explain why the Kingdom fell, their fall had nothing to do with plumbing, boilers or a lack of skilled tradesmen, the end of the Kingdom resulted from one thing, and that is a lack of food.

Anybody, however unskilled can make a fire and keep it fed, especially with the amount of fuel that surrounded every community. 

The communities could all have cooperated with each other, they could have anticipated and planned for eventualities like this, but no, they didn’t, and here we are.

[nodorothyparker]

1 minute ago, OoohMaggie said:

And as well it should, what it shouldn’t do however is explain why the Kingdom fell, their fall had nothing to do with plumbing, boilers or a lack of skilled tradesmen, the end of the Kingdom resulted from one thing, and that is a lack of food.

There's a fair case to be made that it was a combination of factors.  Shortage of food is a big part of it, yes, because you burn more calories in the cold, especially when you're doing more things manually as these people have to and hunting often gets scarce in the winter.  But with the heat gone and roofs caving in or burned up, they're also lacking adequate shelter.

Quote

Anybody, however unskilled can make a fire and keep it fed, especially with the amount of fuel that surrounded every community. 

Not necessarily.  There's more to making a fire as a steady sole source of heat than just striking a match and throwing a log on.  People freeze to death, burn their houses down, or suffocate themselves as the Alexandria crew was about to here in the States every winter trying.

[Gobi]

1 hour ago, AngelaHunter said:

That is truly interesting,  but the skin-faces aren't trained Roman soldiers but people of varying ages and both sexes with little children(?) (unless Awful has fed all the babies to the walkers) who could never tramp 30 miles a day.  

I can't see walkers doing 30 miles a day, for that matter. While I'm at it, do walkers have to eat? I know they want to, but is it necessary for them to continue existing? If it is, migrating makes sense.

[enoughcats]

Couple of things:

Would there be wild packs of dogs?  IMO probably not. Especially in the south where heart worm is a continued problem.  Dogs don't last long once infected and the vector insects are out there.  We see the problem in coyotes....diminished herds of the damned things....then the herds re-emerge.  This in an area not that far from a population center.

Would houses burn?  Yes.  Ironically, the better insulated houses built in the more recent decades have (glory be) fire places and chimneys1  What people don't know and or remember is that these fireplaces are wood on the inside and brick on the outside and when tended, the smoke and sparks go up a double stainless steel liner.  And when the weight of creosote brings the liners down, the sparks find dry wood and a good breezy source of oxygen.

Have we seen any fishing communities drying fish, livestock based communities drying meat?  Drying apples in fall?  

Oh, let's all dance and sing and play because we have so much energy to spare!  

Humbug.

[BellyLaughter]

6 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

So where would Alpha and crew go to escape the dead of winter? South Carolina? Did they walk over 300 miles? How long would that take? What did they eat along the way? Why am I trying to make sense of this?

I read this post and then caught sight of your icon and laughed harder lol

[Nashville]

8 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

That is truly interesting,  but the skin-faces aren't trained Roman soldiers but people of varying ages and both sexes with little children(?) (unless Awful has fed all the babies to the walkers) who could never tramp 30 miles a day.  

The ten-leagues-a-day figure was considering a normal walking pace, not a forced march; plus when you figure (a) smaller groups can move quicker than larger groups and (b) a Roman legion was something over 5,000 men, I expect it balances out. 🙂

[OoohMaggie]

14 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Not necessarily.  There's more to making a fire as a steady sole source of heat than just striking a match and throwing a log on.  People freeze to death, burn their houses down, or suffocate themselves as the Alexandria crew was about to here in the States every winter trying.

You’re right, ‘unskilled’ was the wrong word, I was thinking that after surviving nine years of the ZA, and with most of the idiots and incapables long dead, those still around would be more aware of such things, however, after seeing chubby guitar guy bumbling around and still alive, I do wonder 🤔

[OoohMaggie]

Pretty good ‘making of’ The Storm