S09.E16: The Storm

[sigmaforce86]

49 minutes ago, SamBeckett said:

Miss Beetle could beat Alpha’s ass. 

Don’t mess with Homesteaders!!!

Not to get too far off topic but Charlotte Stewart who played Miss Beadle could outdo just about everyone on this show except maybe Daryl.  Search for her memoir........let's just say she had access to parties and all the mind alerting substances that went with them and she took full advantage of it plus a very free and easy sex life that included people like Jim Morrison (yes she means The Doors Jim Morrison).  And she was homeless for a time.  I imagine people like that who can hit bottom, survive and pull themselves back up could also be the ones to make a kick ass survivor in an apocalypse.

[SamBeckett]

14 minutes ago, Boofish said:

Enid's "widow" whose name I can't remember - you were with the Saviors. Take that righteous indignation down a notch

Also was the Alpha scene from the past? There was no snow. I'm confused. Did I miss something?

Yes to both of your comments!!!

Not only was it snowing, I just thought the whole thing of Alpha having Beta whip her with what looked to be green twine was .... silly. I get the point ... but it came off silly.

The way it should have ended is as our heroes were walking home, somewhere behind them the audience would see the eyes of one of those supposed frozen Walkers suddenly. Implication: The Whisperers had seen them trespass. That’s all we would have needed till next year!!!

Edited April 1, 2019 by SamBeckett

[Timetoread]

8 hours ago, catrox14 said:

And it's definitely confirmed that Judith is Lori's child with her just running off like Carl did. 

And yeah, this.  What have they done with Michonne?  I hate the way she talks to Judith like she's her babysitter.  I want to hear her talk to her like she's her mother - her BLACK mother.

"Judith, if I come back and hear that you've run off or been disrespectful, that's your ass!" 

Walks off mumbling to herself Walking around here thinking you're grown. You ain't grown!  Same shit got your brother killed and I told him about that shit too!

Turns back to Judith, "Do you understand me, little girl?  No hat, no gun, no Negan, no NOTHING!  Try me if you want to!  See what happens!"

Edited April 1, 2019 by Timetoread

[ljenkins782]

2 hours ago, SamBeckett said:

As controversial as Negan is, JDM can sell the version of the character as it is now. Frankly, I’ve long-thought this show needed someone like him.  Not just a smart ass, but a smart ass that can back up his words. (To me, he is much more than Daryl.) Yes, his history is a TRUE burden, and I’m not going to lie about that. Still ... JDM is charismatic.

He is. Although I really wish he'd grow his hair back, I'm not loving the buzz cut look. This episode bored me, so his commentary on the love quadrangle and Dr Baby Daddy were some of the best parts. 

The very end of the episode was especially poorly done, IMO. An indecipherable radio transmission that no one heard. In a place where they've run into new groups of humans to fight with regularly? Not much intrigue there. It'd be one thing if they thought they were the collective last people on earth, but that's not the case. It was mere months ago that they discovered this vast group of people who've been living near them for who knows how long.

With the seemingly muted response to heads on pike attack, it doesn't feel like there's an active plot line to get people tuning in for the next season and that random radio transmission certainly didn't do it either. The pre-airing rumor was that it was going to be Rick's voice (or someone who sounded like him) on the radio, now THAT would have gotten some interest from people. But a random voice saying words we can't make out? Nope. 

[Lamima]

So why did the Kingdom fall anyway? Why did they have to leave? They had a few people killed. So did Hilltop, including it's leader. Seems Hilltop fell and should have combined with Kingdom. ANd Kingdom had all those people but when leaving in snow storm they had like 20 people. Holes, Kang, holes. I hate them.

And the Negan redemption....since the show has a hard on for GOT....let me say this to show...THE NORTH REMEMBERS!

[BravoAddict72]

The best part of the episode for me was Uncle Daryl playing with the kids in the snow at the end of the episode. I don't know how he is going to react to being around the new and improved Uncle Neagan at Alexandria. Part of me still hopes he kills Negan just out of spite. He has been with Judith since she was born. Neagan has no business trying to come in and be the new fun Uncle to Judith. That being said, even though I hate to admit it, Neagan did have some great lines this episode. Father not the father and Doctor baby daddy!

I wish they would have shown Daryl reacting to being forced to stay inside Sancturary again. 

[mightysparrow]

43 minutes ago, Timetoread said:

And yeah, this.  What have they done with Michonne?  I hate the way she talks to Judith like she's her babysitter.  I want to hear her talk to her like she's her mother - her BLACK mother.

"Judith, if I come back and hear that you've run off or been disrespectful, that's your ass!" 

Walks off mumbling to herself Walking around here thinking you're grown. You ain't grown!  Same shit got your brother killed and I told him about that shit too!

Turns back to Judith, "Do you understand me, little girl?  No hat, no gun, no Negan, no NOTHING!  Try me if you want to!  See what happens!"

I've been waiting for this to happen.  I'm wondering exactly when Michonne is going to start being Judith's mother.  Not her 'mommy' but her MOTHER.  The one who disciplines her and tells her to mind her mouth and to STAY AWAY FROM THE MONSTER IN THE CELL.  If Michonne wants her daughter to grow up to be a decent person, she needs to keep her away from Negan.  And that means being the bad guy sometimes.  Judith Grimes is running Alexandria and that's BULLSHIT.

[TheRabbi]

I stopped watching around the time that Rick left, and decided to peek in here to see the general consensus on how the show is now. I don't regret my decision. 

[Lady Iris]

10 hours ago, Boofish said:

The best part about this episode was seeing Daryl smile for the first time since the Season 2 finale. 

What? When? I missed that.

4 hours ago, Mu Shu said:

The camera and lighting were beautiful.  They stole the overhead shots from 31 days of night, though. They stole the winter storm from The Long Winter by Laura Ingalls Wilder, sans zombies.  

I was totally flashbacking to LHotP. Nobody did people in peril by blizzards like that show did.

I'm in agreement that JDM has massive charisma, I like the actor a lot, always have but really? Negan? The big bad headsmashing wolf was the ONLY one to go after the sacred child? I call bullshit. I get its all about his redemption and blah blah but nobody else ran off to help? "Oh yeah Michonne, we just clung to the rope while Negan was the only one who gave a shit enough to go running after your brat."

Edited April 1, 2019 by Lady Iris

[Boofish]

11 minutes ago, Lady Iris said:

What? When? I missed that.

At the end during the snowball fight

[Boofish]

I think they messed up Negan (who I admit to loving) because they let him get away with too much. All the other villians paid dearly (and they should have) for a fraction of the crap Negan dished out. But as one of his only 78 fans, I'm good with him sticking around since I don't have Rick or Maggie. They need him. 

[mightysparrow]

I think its important to separate the actor from the character they play. That can be hard at times.  Personally, I don't care if JDM, can charm the little birdies from the trees. Negan is a murdering, raping, psychopath and there's no coming back from that. The only way Negan can even be remotely redeemed is if he dies doing something for the community. And that would only be repayment for the 6 plus years people have put up with his sorry ass.

Are we really supposed to believe that Rosita would trade quips about her baby with the man who brutally murdered a man she once loved? That whole 'father' scene might have been 'cute' but it made my stomach turn. I guess I'm not at the point where men who rape are comic relief.

JDM is playing Negan for the fans, to keep his job and his comfortable lifestyle. It has nothing to do with the  character we were forced to endure for more than two seasons.  It's an insult to the intelligence of the viewers and I don't like being insulted. 

Edited April 1, 2019 by mightysparrow

[AngelaHunter]

3 hours ago, jackjill89 said:

They just wanted to do an episode in snow with snow zombies. It made no sense from a show standpoint and was clearly written by people who don't do winter, says the girl from the midwest.

It's not unusual for temps to drop to -30 where I live.  But even at -10, when the wind is howling like that, the wind chill factor can make it feel like -40 and freeze exposed skin in minutes. We know it was very cold since that pond froze solid (and BTW, Daryl, stepping on the edge of the pond where the water might be a few inches deep does NOT mean the middle of the body of water is frozen too. Duh).

Watching our gang wandering around with open coats and bare faces and ears just made me roll my eyes. All I could think was how much the actors must be sweating in the coats and scarves. They looked like they were walking through mountains of soap flakes, and I guess CGI-ing in breath vapour wasn't in the budget, or maybe no one thought about a little detail like that. After all, Kang thinks it perfectly logical for feral dogs to be purebred and have cropped ears. Not too swift, that Kang. 

2 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Negan has a point.  Except that there is no way that he can justify his raping of women.

Oh, but not only does HE justify it, but the show backs him up. See, he didn't beat them, hold them down or tie them, which seems to be the only way Kirkman thinks it could be rape. They were free to leave anytime they wanted. They chose to stay, and chose to take their clothes off and have sex with him any way he wanted. That's how we are supposed to see it, and shockingly, it's how many fans see it too. We're supposed to ignore that he used coercion on them, and truly, that is worse than if he DID hold them down. Had he done so, the women could just hate him. His use of coercion and subtle threats made them hate themselves too, for submitting to him. It was a way to degrade and humiliate them as force couldn't do. Yeah, if he threatened to abuse, murder or work to death my husband/brother/father, I'd take my clothes off and lie down for him, but I would despise myself every minute I was doing it. And we're supposed to admire him for not allowing other members of his gang to rape, just because he's so gallant, and not see it as a dominance thing, due to his insecurity. He allowed others to rape, but only when he controlled it. 

Sorry to rant about this. I know it's just a show, but rape is real and the twisted justification of it and thinking behind this just enrages and disgusts me and seeing it all forgiven by everyone - hello, Rosita? - makes it even worse. I"ll shut up now.

I too enjoyed the playing in the snow at the end, but then was confused at the Alpha flagellating scene, thinking, "How come it's summer where they are?"

4 hours ago, Mu Shu said:

 I’m sorry but Michonne has been awful for the past two seasons.  They need to keep her from Negan, because she can’t work a scene with him.

Agree. Those scenes are cringe-worthy and I'm so tired of her speaking in that rasping whisper. Maybe because in previous seasons she never said much and now that she's front and center her lack of talent is much more apparent particularly in a scene with someone who CAN act?  As much as I despise the Negan character, JDM is a competent actor.

Edited April 1, 2019 by AngelaHunter

[Timetoread]

3 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

I think its important to separate the actor from the character they play. That can be hard at times.  Personally, I don't care if JDM, can charm the little birdies from the trees. Negan is a murdering, raping, psychopath and there's no coming back from that. The only way Negan can even be remotely redeemed is if he dies doing something for the community. And that would only be repayment for the 6 plus years people have put up with his sorry ads.

Are we really supposed to believe that Rosita would trade quips about her baby with the man who brutally murdered a man she once loved? That whole 'father' scene might have been 'cute' but it made my stomach turn. I guess I'm not at the point where men who rape are comic relief.

JDM is playing Negan for the fans, to keep his job and his comfortable lifestyle. It has nothing to do with the  character we were forced to endure for more than two seasons.  It's an insult to the intelligence of the viewers and I don't like being insulted. 

Agreed.  I don't think he's cute or funny (the character, not the actor).  He didn't just bash in the heads of Glen and Abraham, he did it in front of Maggie who he KNEW was pregnant and by whom.  He's a sadist.  His people were as cruel as he was (killing Olivia, all the men and boys at Oceanside, many more, taking Hilltop's doctor because he killed the other one, taking and destroying all the furniture out of Alexandria) and they kept pictures/trophies of their kills on the walls.  They did so gleefully, not to protect their own, not for a reason, but because they were bullies.  There is no redemption for that and I will NEVER forget or forgive it.  I was pissed that they didn't kill every.single.saviour - except Gracie.   As you say, if he wants credit, he can die so the rest will live.  I'll repay the kindness by refraining from spitting on his grave.

[Eulipian 5k]

The writers did a good job of internalizing the fall out from the pikings of last week's episode. I liked how they showed the reaction to Lydia and it's effect on her. Didn't think we needed a bloodbath finale after last week so this more feelings approach was less comic book.

Confused about Zeke wanting Daryl to leave; the problem w/ Carol & Zeke won't go away with Daryl leaving. Daryl is a friend to Carol not a suitor. A friend will help her to open up to Zeke, Lydia, et al.

Question:

Where was Connie? and

Why would you have to chase after a dog you can see that knows you ? Why not call his"unique" name or whistle. A real dog would run towards you.

[Timetoread]

3 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

Maybe because in previous seasons she never said much and now that she's front and center her lack of talent is much more apparent particularly in a scene with someone who CAN act?  As much as I despise the Negan character, JDM is a competent actor.

Nope.  Danai Guirira is one of the best actors on that show and she's elevated every scene and actor she's been in and with.  It's that the material doesn't rise to her level and therefore turns to ashes in her mouth.  The Michonne character is not written believably because of a few reasons, but the main, IMO is that the source writer(s), while they thought it would be fun to have a "tough black chick"  character have no real world experience with either tough chicks or black chicks or combinations of both.

The most riveting scene with her this season was in the exchange in the council hearing where she exposed Magna.  As she walked out the door, Magna (another tough chick) yelled, "Can I ask YOU something." and Michonne just said no and kept walking.  THAT was a true exchange.

[Timetoread]

2 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Confused about Zeke wanting Daryl to leave; the problem w/ Carol & Zeke won't go away with Daryl leaving. Daryl is a friend to Carol not a suitor. A friend will help her to open up to Zeke, Lydia, et al.

I think because Zeke felt that as long as Daryl was there, she'd go to HIM and not Zeke.  Carol was very unfair to Ezekiel.  He needed her and she turned her back on him.  And apparently he was the ONLY one who could keep Henry in check.

[itsjustme]

How far apart are these different communities anyway?

[Eulipian 5k]

4 minutes ago, itsjustme said:

How far apart are these different communities anyway? 

Has EuGenius or anyone ever drawn a map of these  communities anyway?

I would think with all the questionable lineage of kids post ZA that the communities would take a communal approach to child rearing. Everyone is responsible to look out for the kiddies and to keep them away from the psychopaths and walkers.

[Josette]

13 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

Can't harm Negan, but I guess it worked out since it seemed he was the only one who gave enough of

42 minutes ago, Lady Iris said:

Negan? The big bad headsmashing wolf was the ONLY one to go after the sacred child?

Siddiq also went after Judith.

16 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

After all, Kang thinks it perfectly logical for feral dogs to be purebred and have cropped ears.

 Dog is a Belgian Malinois, so his ears are natural, not cropped.

The scene with Alpha and Beta was a bit disorienting, but they went south (more south) for the winter and I think that's where the scene took place. 

I didn't understand the fall of the Kingdom.  The pipes burst and things got moldy?   Really not sure.

All in all, a low-key finale.

[mightysparrow]

12 minutes ago, Timetoread said:

Nope.  Danai Guirira is one of the best actors on that show and she's elevated every scene and actor she's been in and with.  It's that the material doesn't rise to her level and therefore turns to ashes in her mouth.  The Michonne character is not written believably because of a few reasons, but the main, IMO is that the source writer(s), while they thought it would be fun to have a "tough black chick"  character have no real world experience with either tough chicks or black chicks or combinations of both.

The most riveting scene with her this season was in the exchange in the council hearing where she exposed Magna.  As she walked out the door, Magna (another tough chick) yelled, "Can I ask YOU something." and Michonne just said no and kept walking.  THAT was a true exchange.

Danai is one of the few actors on TWD who actually has an acting career OUTSIDE of TWD.  An award winning  acting career.  I think she's TOO good for this shit. Crap actors (who need the paycheck) are better at this shit.

It should also be remembered that one of the best episodes 'Scars', the one that had critics speaking of awards, featured Danai.

I didn't like the conversation between Negan and Michonne because it was totally out of character for Michonne.  The REAL Michonne, not the pod creature that appeared right after she fucked Rick Grime. 

[mightysparrow]

16 minutes ago, Timetoread said:

I think because Zeke felt that as long as Daryl was there, she'd go to HIM and not Zeke.  Carol was very unfair to Ezekiel.  He needed her and she turned her back on him.  And apparently he was the ONLY one who could keep Henry in check.

It looks like Carol bailed on Zeke the second Henry died.  She didn't care about what Zeke was going through. Her fairytale was over and she was ready to move on.

[Timetoread]

3 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

The REAL Michonne, not the pod creature that appeared right after she fucked Rick Grime. 

I always have little fantasies in my head of if I wrote for this show.  So bear with me...  If I wrote for this show, after losing Carl and then Rick and left alone with a baby girl, the REAL Michonne would reemerge and she would kill Negan.  Rick Grimes was a Sheriff at heart and it was in him to imprison the bad guy.  But Michonne, older wiser and with her own string of dead children, wouldn't have that man alive with her young child in town.  No way no how.  Too many ways things can go wrong and he can get out.  Who knows how much rage he still harbors for the man who bested him and he might take it out on Judith.  I would have liked to see her kill him and deal with the inner argument between her decision and the fact that Rick would have disagreed.

[Eulipian 5k]

3 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

It looks like Carol bailed on Zeke the second Henry died. 

Both Daryl and Carol have "bailed on" the whole group before; they have never run off together so Zeke should chill and be glad Daryl is there to provide any lifeline to Carol.

[Timetoread]

6 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

It looks like Carol bailed on Zeke the second Henry died.  She didn't care about what Zeke was going through. Her fairytale was over and she was ready to move on.

Extremely cold.  I thought it was telling that Zeke spoke to Daryl using his real voice - no put ons, no elevated speech.  Just, dude I need you to step off because you're in between me and my woman and I need her to myself right now.

2 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Both Daryl and Carol have "bailed on" the whole group before; they have never run off together so Zeke should chill and be glad Daryl is there to provide any lifeline to Carol.

That's not Daryl's job, nor should Ezekiel need to look to another man to usher his partner to him.  Carol failed him and all the blame goes to her.

[mightysparrow]

Just now, Timetoread said:

Extremely cold.  I thought it was telling that Zeke spoke to Daryl using his real voice - no put ons, no elevated speech.  Just, dude I need you to step off because you're in between me and my woman and I need her to myself right now.

He knew he couldn't talk to Carol. He knows what a coldhearted bitch she REALLY is. He figured Daryl had more decency.  But Daryl doesn't think about Carol THAT WAY. Never has. So he probably didn't see why he should stay away from his FRIEND when she was hurting.  

Carol is probably already planning on setting up a nice little family with her, Daryl and Lydia.  I just wonder if the showrunners are desperate enough to play the Caryl card.

[iMonrey]

This was certainly the most lackluster season finale I can ever remember, and I think I'm done. It's rare for me to stop watching a show after so many seasons, especially one I loved so much at the beginning. But there just isn't anyone left I care about anymore, and the show seems to think its franchise is so strong their characters are just interchangeable chess pieces they can swap out for new ones and the audience will care about them just as much as they cared about the ones that are gone.

I was on the fence after the first half of this season and there was some potential here but the writing is just silly. The Whisperers are silly and all the energy seems to be going into pulling off something that's visually arresting regardless of whether it makes sense. 

I'm never going to be OK with Negan still being around, I'm never going to care about Lydia, or Luke or Magna or any of these other new characters, so what's the damn point? And why, oh why, couldn't Eugene's head been on one of those pole?? Why does the show love him so much?

Quote

They just wanted to do an episode in snow with snow zombies. It made no sense from a show standpoint and was clearly written by people who don't do winter, says the girl from the midwest

Agreed. What the hell happened to the Kingdom? I get that they had some plumbing issues but this was a thriving community. Were they really that reliant on their pipes? Hilltop and Alexandria don't have that issue and presumably the Kingdom can grow the same sorts of food those other communities do. They really just jumped to the plot point they wanted to launch "Snow Zombies" from without much thought.

And if I'm supposed to be shaking in my boots at the sight of Alpha getting her arms whipped, then WTF. This is probably the silliest villain the show has ever come up with, and that's saying a lot. 

[marcee]

13 hours ago, itsjustme said:

...maybe 3 inches was hard to swallow.

[Eulipian 5k]

So frpm the scene of Beta whipping Elpha,, does that mean the bruises on Lydia were not from mother/daughter child abuse? Are they from a general hazing that everyone must endure to not become weak?

[Timetoread]

11 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

He knew he couldn't talk to Carol. He knows what a coldhearted bitch she REALLY is. He figured Daryl had more decency.  But Daryl doesn't think about Carol THAT WAY. Never has. So he probably didn't see why he should stay away from his FRIEND when she was hurting.  

Carol is probably already planning on setting up a nice little family with her, Daryl and Lydia.  I just wonder if the showrunners are desperate enough to play the Caryl card.

I don't think so.  I mean I hope not.  As gruff and grungy as he is, Daryl is actually a very sensitive man who loves hard.  I shudder to say this because I despised Beth, but to me the most memorable scene/period was when Daryl was with Beth.  At first he was distant and rough with her - so much so that I wanted to slap him.  But she stuck it out with him, called his bluff, and he finally broke down.  What came out is that he was deeply mourning Herschel and wasn't sure of his place in this world and of his worth.  Beth was tender with him and what emerged when the sun came back up was a very open, loving and protective man. 

I don't think Carol cares enough about others to call an emotional bluff - it always secretly bothered me that Carol never reached out to Carl after Lori died.  The only two who did was Daryl and Michonne.  Carol is not a sensitive enough woman to support such a sensitive man.  And mind you, I do not equate sensitivity with weakness.  Rick was also sensitive - and utterly savage!  Daryl is a tough somovabitch, but he needs a woman who will help him with his feelings, particularly if there is a traumatic emotional block that has been keeping him from romantic love his entire life.  Carol is not that woman.  I've got my good eye on Connie right now and I think she might be the X that marks the spot.

[nodorothyparker]

I wouldn't have minded this much as a regular episode because hey, we got to see some of our longterm characters have conversations together and we got to see some things we haven't already seen a thousand times before.  Putting aside some of the silliness of the Worst Blizzard Ever there were some really nice shots with nice lighting and even a bit of tension.  Was it a great season finale?  No, but it would have been tough to top the big pike reveal from last episode anyway, and as someone else already said, this felt like the show needing to take a breather and check in with everybody.

There's a reason that a lot of couples statistically don't survive the death of a child and Exhibit A was front and center in this one.  Different people grieve differently and if one partner is already wired to turn inward, that's a tough thing to overcome.  Yet it shouldn't be discounted that Carol is paying enough attention this time to acknowledge that she feels herself slipping away again before she completely checks out and disappears and even in her funk was able to recognize what Lydia was going through to pull her back.   She was also choosing to go back to what had been safe and familiar to her from the start in returning to what was left of the old Alexandria crew.  It sucks for Zeke, sure, but it sounded like with first Jesus and then Tara dead he may be moving in to assume leadership of the Hilltop for the time being and he has his own safe and familiar people around him for now.  She's not the first character and certainly won't be the last to isolate to emotionally protect herself or try to deal.  I did really enjoy Zeke talking leader to leader with Michonne as those two characters haven't had a ton of interaction, even with the terrible wigs.  I don't think anybody's thinking any further right now than trying to keep it together to regroup and figure out where they do as a group all go from here.

Count me in on the sure, Negan's a great snarker but that doesn't mean relatively civilized people should ever be wanting to hang out with him or think he can be redeemed bus.  Yet I can already see that other big flashing redemption bus bearing down on us for next season.  And seriously, what was with the LHOTP theatrics with the clothesline and everyone acting like death was imminent in a walled gated compound?  How far could Dog or Judith or anyone realistically get before worst case scenario of smacking into one of those walls?  While I do appreciate that the show made the attempt to do something different with the Worst Blizzard Ever, as a native Midwesterner who's spent much of the last decade in the Northeast, all I could think of was this:

[Eulipian 5k]

31 minutes ago, Timetoread said:

34 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Both Daryl and Carol have "bailed on" the whole group before; they have never run off together so Zeke should chill and be glad Daryl is there to provide any lifeline to Carol.

That's not Daryl's job, nor should Ezekiel need to look to another man to usher his partner to him. 

That is Daryl's job; he's her friend. Would he send  Tara or Jerry away if she was confiding in them? Carol came to find Daryl after he left the groups. Judith needs to set up that 5-cent psychiatrist stand - couples therapy -I tell you!

[mightysparrow]

8 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

This was certainly the most lackluster season finale I can ever remember, and I think I'm done. It's rare for me to stop watching a show after so many seasons, especially one I loved so much at the beginning. But there just isn't anyone left I care about anymore, and the show seems to think its franchise is so strong their characters are just interchangeable chess pieces they can swap out for new ones and the audience will care about them just as much as they cared about the ones that are gone.

I was on the fence after the first half of this season and there was some potential here but the writing is just silly. The Whisperers are silly and all the energy seems to be going into pulling off something that's visually arresting regardless of whether it makes sense. 

I'm never going to be OK with Negan still being around, I'm never going to care about Lydia, or Luke or Magna or any of these other new characters, so what's the damn point? And why, oh why, couldn't Eugene's head been on one of those pole?? Why does the show love him so much?

Agreed. What the hell happened to the Kingdom? I get that they had some plumbing issues but this was a thriving community. Were they really that reliant on their pipes? Hilltop and Alexandria don't have that issue and presumably the Kingdom can grow the same sorts of food those other communities do. They really just jumped to the plot point they wanted to launch "Snow Zombies" from without much thought.

And if I'm supposed to be shaking in my boots at the sight of Alpha getting her arms whipped, then WTF. This is probably the silliest villain the show has ever come up with, and that's saying a lot. 

So well said.

I was really surprised at the end of the episode.  THAT'S what they left us with?  Doesn't anybody working on this show care anymore?

I'm very unhappy at the them insisting on shoving these weak boring newbies down our throat when there are so many good characters that are ignored.  Aaron? 

I think Luke went easy on Lydia. As far as he knows, she's a liability and what happened to Enid could happen to him .  Are they supposed to welcome her with open arms because Daryl and Carol want a new pet?

The showrunners keep comparing their show to Game of Thrones while the folks here are comparing it to Little House on the Prairie.   I think the people here are closer to the truth.

[driver18]

I thought everything that happened was pretty clearly telegraphed throughout the season:

- The Kingdom falling. All season long we were told how bad things were there. Henry was sent off because Carol knew that he needed to learn to be stronger, to gain useful skills. Things that he OBVIOUSLY was not learning at the Kingdom. Things were falling apart, the pipes was just the most obvious, in-your-face symbol. They were running low on food, that is why they were so desperate for the fair. It wasn't Hilltop or Alexandria that was hurting so much for food, it was the Kingdom. Ezekiel and Jerry and their troops went off on a crazy-ass mission to get a freaking projector bulb because the Kingdom was a fantasy. It couldn't last. That was the point of that whole expedition. They were strong to begin with because they started out with a bounty, but they couldn't live off of that bounty forever once they were closed off because this world we live in now is not some idealized fairytale. 

- Carol and Ezekiel ending things... well, they were together (with regards to Carol) *because* of Henry. It was pretty obvious if you were paying attention to their scenes in the first couple of episodes. She accepted his proposal *because* she wanted a family for Henry. She loved him, but she wasn't in love with him. That line: "I'll never regret the fairytale" (which again goes back to my first point) was about the fact that Carol had been living that idealized fantasy that Ezekiel had created and she did that to have that family that she'd wanted but never had had with Ed and Sophia. For this period of her life, she was able to have that with this good man that she cared for that was Ezekiel and for Henry.

Also, the the groundwork with Daryl was lain. In the first episode, she told Daryl about the proposal from Ezekiel, asking for his advice. Daryl wasn't happy about the proposal (in fact, in Kang's notes in the script, she pointed out that he was jealous--so it was a nice bookend with Ezekiel being jealous of Daryl in the finale), but if it was what Carol wanted, he was happy for her. We also had the intimacy of their scenes when she went to visit him, cutting his hair, her being the only one who knew where he was, her trusting him with Henry. The groundwork with everything with Carol/Ezekiel and her going with Daryl was lain all season long. Kang did a really good job of laying the seeds. It was all there.

Other things...

- The storm did not start UNTIL they had started their journey and were too far from the Kingdom to turn back. That is why they didn't wait out the storm at the Kingdom. It was stated a few times that they thought they could make it to the next waystation, but the storm came on too quickly. It was also stated that the storm COULD hold them up for a few days or a few weeks. So whether they left Hilltop the next day OR there was an unspecified time jump of a few weeks, it doesn't matter. They didn't know how long the storm was going to last, they just knew there was the possibility of it lasting for an indeterminate amount of time. The time it lasted doesn't matter.

- Ezekiel was talking of the past on the radio, so I didn't have a problem with the Alpha/Beta scene since that also referenced time passing. 

- Negan going after Judith. It wasn't that Negan was the ONLY one who went after Judith, it was that Negan was the FIRST one who went after her. It really wouldn't have made much sense for anyone else to have done so... how many people would it have taken? Yes, they all hate Negan (understandably), but they also know that that Negan does care about Judith so he's going to save her.

- Negan being redeemed. Yeah, it's happening, but they aren't rushing it. Everyone (except Judith) still hates him. Yeah, Michonne thanked him, but he DID save her daughter's life. But she still hates him. As does everyone else.

- Ezekiel did not come across as the bad guy at all to me. He came across as a guy who was grieving, as someone who lost everything... but at the end still found hope and could find and bring light into this dark world.

I liked the finale, it felt like a good wrap-up to the season, getting the characters back on track, and setting up the Whisperers as a continued presence so that we know they are still a threat.

Edited April 1, 2019 by driver18

[Timetoread]

2 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Would he send  Tara or Jerry away if she was confiding in them?

He might have.  This is not about who Daryl is to Carol, it is about who HE was supposed to be to Carol - the life partner and other half of the couple that just lost a kid.  Why do Carol's needs trump everybody else's?  Zeke's lost two kids as well.  And he lost Shiva.  And he lost the Kingdom.  He's feeling extremely vulnerable but Carol keeps leaving him to run to Daryl.  I get it.

[Timetoread]

5 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

As far as he knows, she's a liability and what happened to Enid could happen to him . 

What happened to Enid probably SHOULD have happened to him, Savior that he was.  I see no reason to beat up Lydia for the choices others made.  I haven't decided whether or not I like her - only time will tell, but I don't BLAME her because her mother is a psychotic bitch.

[mightysparrow]

9 minutes ago, Timetoread said:

I don't think so.  I mean I hope not.  As gruff and grungy as he is, Daryl is actually a very sensitive man who loves hard.  I shudder to say this because I despised Beth, but to me the most memorable scene/period was when Daryl was with Beth.  At first he was distant and rough with her - so much so that I wanted to slap him.  But she stuck it out with him, called his bluff, and he finally broke down.  What came out is that he was deeply mourning Herschel and wasn't sure of his place in this world and of his worth.  Beth was tender with him and what emerged when the sun came back up was a very open, loving and protective man. 

I don't think Carol cares enough about others to call an emotional bluff - it always secretly bothered me that Carol never reached out to Carl after Lori died.  The only two who did was Daryl and Michonne.  Carol is not a sensitive enough woman to support such a sensitive man.  And mind you, I do not equate sensitivity with weakness.  Rick was also sensitive - and utterly savage!  Daryl is a tough somovabitch, but he needs a woman who will help him with his feelings, particularly if there is a traumatic emotional block that has been keeping him from romantic love his entire life.  Carol is not that woman.  I've got my good eye on Connie right now and I think she might be the X that marks the spot.

I agree about Daryl. Under all that funk (and there's a LOT of it) he's  a loving gentle man. I didn't like him and Beth but she brought something out of him.

Daryl deserves better than Carol.  She's cold and mean. I had high hopes for him and Connie but there's no way Carol will let that happen. 

[Eulipian 5k]

6 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

I had high hopes for him and Connie but there's no way Carol will let that happen.  

Uh-oh! Sh#t jus got real! The Post ZA Real Housewives of Atlanta.

[Kanner]

This was not a traditional finale. So it did suffer from finale episode expectations. I liked it though as an episode. Some great interactions and I liked the navigation of the snow.  It gave us a different look.  I did like this season a lot, though I don't like what it looks like they are trying to do with Negan.  I will never forget.

[AngelaHunter]

1 hour ago, Josette said:

 Dog is a Belgian Malinois, so his ears are natural, not cropped.

I was referring to the pack of well-fed, purebred dogs chasing Negan.

[Macbeth]

With the wagons and the rope to get from one place to another in the snow storm - I thought the theme from "Little House on the Prairie should have been playing in the background.

But Pa Ingalls would never have left the horses behind.

My expectations for this show is low.  I wasn't enraged by this finale as I was with the last couple of years.  Jerry and his family made it through.  

The cinematography was fantastic.  GOT has its own issues with snow as well as a lot of the filming takes place in northern Ireland.  

[Eulipian 5k]

So the Kingdom went to dust. Some of those burst pipes looked like they had duct tape repairs, WTH? I wonder what happened to the welders and smiths that should be doing the repairs? (One lost his head, the other lost his wife). They should be out scavenging for industrial parts and pipes more than food or lost sheep.

[iMonrey]

There has to be something more to the downfall of the Kingdom than just bad plumbing. I mean, that's dumb. Do Hilltop and Alexandria rely on plumbing? There must be other ways to deliver needed water to both the population and to irrigate the crops. But the plumbing goes south at Kingdom so everyone just gives up and leaves? Huh? How is it more practical to relocate an entire community to another that's probably already stretched for resources, than to come up with alternate solutions if you can't fix whatever is wrong with the plumbing? 

I'm also really over these dramatic monologues at the top of every episode. What we got was a vague story about the decaying infrastructure at the Kingdom dressed up in metaphors and overly flowery, emotional language that didn't tell us anything but was meant to sound deep and smart. I'd really rather have had a scene where someone ran down a list of why the Kingdom was no longer viable. 

I'm pretty sure the Kingdom was just meant to be a metaphor for the demise of Carol and Ezekial's relationship, but I understand why their relationship came to and end. I just don't understand why the Kingdom did. Surely the Kingdom isn't too despondent over the loss of Henry to go on.

Edited April 1, 2019 by iMonrey

[Ohwell]

I don't have as much of a problem with Judith hanging with Negan as I do with her running off whenever she feels like it.  Michonne is not raising that child right AT ALL.    

[Ouisch]

1 hour ago, Eulipian 5k said:

So the Kingdom went to dust. Some of those burst pipes looked like they had duct tape repairs, WTH? I wonder what happened to the welders and smiths that should be doing the repairs? (One lost his head, the other lost his wife). They should be out scavenging for industrial parts and pipes more than food or lost sheep.

That was my main distraction while watching this episode.....  so you had some plumbing malfunctions and you're short on food....   You are still living inside a solid walled community! Why abandon that for a hazardous trek through a snowstorm with limited food supplies? (You'd be just as cold and hungry at home in the Kingdom, but you wouldn't have to worry about Whisperers and Walkers.) Certainly eventually someone could have rigged up some of that Rube Goldberg-type plumbing Rick and Company had back at the prison.

And while our intrepid main characters were fighting against gale-force winds, snow and freezing weather, we see the Whisperers in some place that is snow-free and where the trees are still flush with green leaves. OK, perhaps they migrated South, but they are doing so on foot, and with a hundred or so people in tow (unless they left those interspersed members of the herd shown to Daryl left behind).  Just how far South could this group have made it in the short time jomp indicated?

[maystone]

10 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

There has to be something more to the downfall of the Kingdom than just bad plumbing. I mean, that's dumb. Do Hilltop and Alexandria rely on plumbing? There must be other ways to deliver needed water to both the population and to irrigate the crops. But the plumbing goes south at Kingdom so everyone just gives up and leaves? Huh? How is it more practical to relocate an entire community to another that's probably already stretched for resources, than to come up with alternate solutions if you can't fix whatever is wrong with the plumbing? 

When we first were introduced to the Kingdom, there was a bit about how a number of crops had a fungus and had to be pulled up and burned. It was also a metaphor about life in the ZA, but it fits here, too. So, things fall apart over time. They lost a lot of their people to the Saviors. The reason Henry was sent to Hilltop was to learn blacksmithing in order to repair the mechanical structures that were falling apart after so many years. They looked fairly urban - or at least not country - so I don't think they had some of the natural advantages of Hilltop or Oceanside, or the green tech set up that Alexandria had. They didn't have a reservoir of water or apparently access to a lake or river, so fire could easily take out whole sections of the Kingdom.

I've enjoyed the back half of S9 for the most part, but I wish they had had the time to show rather than tell how badly things were going at the Kingdom. It's once again as if the season was primarily set up for what's coming in S10. They've cleared the board again, rearranged the pieces, and who knows, maybe another time jump. I'm still a fan, but even I'm wondering if there's a endgame here. GoT shows it's possible to move past the original material to create something just as imaginative and enthralling. I honestly don't know how much Kirkland owns of the TV production, but if they can pass him by and move forward, I'd be all for that.

[Eulipian 5k]

Civilization shouldn't have to fall back beyond the Industrial Age. The pipes were for steam power for generators or to run machines. They just need a water/steam supply, like water tanks for rain, or a river.

[valandsend]

4 hours ago, Josette said:

The scene with Alpha and Beta was a bit disorienting, but they went south (more south) for the winter and I think that's where the scene took place. 

That's how I saw it, too, which means there was no reason to be worried about crossing into the Whisperers' territory because they weren't there.

[Mu Shu]

8 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Also, no matter how thick anyone thinks the ice may be, having fast moving river water underneath it makes crossing on that ice dangerous.  There will be thin spots.  

If they were concerned about the thickness of the ice, they should have sent Jerry across first.

I am surprised that the king didn't pack up his Shiva statue and take it with him.

Papier mache.  Snow would have made shiva a soggy cat.

king has run his course for me.  Elpha can off him anytime now.  Damn if I’m not enjoying her.  I’m willing to put the accent aside, because the way she’s playing her with the snuffling tics and reptilian way of carrying her head and neck, I’m in for it.  She’s just a damn freak and I love it. 

[driver18]

37 minutes ago, Ouisch said:

That was my main distraction while watching this episode.....  so you had some plumbing malfunctions and you're short on food....   You are still living inside a solid walled community! Why abandon that for a hazardous trek through a snowstorm with limited food supplies? (You'd be just as cold and hungry at home in the Kingdom, but you wouldn't have to worry about Whisperers and Walkers.) Certainly eventually someone could have rigged up some of that Rube Goldberg-type plumbing Rick and Company had back at the prison.

And while our intrepid main characters were fighting against gale-force winds, snow and freezing weather, we see the Whisperers in some place that is snow-free and where the trees are still flush with green leaves. OK, perhaps they migrated South, but they are doing so on foot, and with a hundred or so people in tow (unless they left those interspersed members of the herd shown to Daryl left behind).  Just how far South could this group have made it in the short time jomp indicated?

They did NOT abandon it to trek though a snowstorm with limited food supplies. There was NO snowstorm when they left. The weather was fine; it was barely snowing. They had NO IDEA there was going to be a snowstorm. The storm came upon them after they had gone too far to turn back TO the Kingdom to be behind that solid walled community. That is why they decided to go through the night to try to get to a waystation. That was clearly stated in the dialogue.

Secondly, we did NOT see the Whisperers in a snow-free place at the same time that we saw our people in the snow. The radio conversation between Ezekiel and Judith that book-ended the show was in the future as they were talking about the past. Time had passed, they were no longer in the winter. Alpha and Beta ALSO referenced time passing. Again... it was in the dialogue.