S05.E10: I Am Bane

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

On the precipice of Gotham's reunification, Gordon and Bruce find themselves face-to-face with a newly transformed Eduardo, and discover the real mastermind behind the city's current chaos; a pregnant Barbara turns to Lee for help.

Promo:

Original air date: 3/21/19

[Danielg342]

I'm sure there's a few Gothamites who felt the city needed remodelling.

That's about all I can say. This season has been a pure drag...and an utter disappointment. Glad there's only two episodes left.

[HoodlumSheep]

There's been very little momentum this season and it feels like it's only just finally picking up a little steam...with only two episodes to go :(

honestly the best part of the episode for me was was Lee wheeling an in-labor babs through the hallway at full throttle while babs shot down the mooks. That had me reeling with laughter.

Couldn't understand a majority of what bane was saying, but what's new?

Nyssa showing up just makes me miss ra's :'(

[Lantern7]

Only two more episodes. Dang, The months have gone pretty fast. I mean, I don't think any other series could have a scene where a woman in the throes of childbirth is rushed on a wheelchair, firing at people trying to murder her. I mean, maybe Legends of Tomorrow, but their crazy is different.

I know, on some levels, this series has been so stupid . . . but then you have moments where Oswald realizes that he pointed a gun at Barbara's baby, tries to write it off as merely being threatening, then yelling, "Okay, fine! I'M SORRY!!!!" Shit, Oswald and Ed in general. They ain't the World's Finest, but they are Gotham's Craziest. And Nyssa coming in as perhaps the Final Boss of the series. And fuck, she ain't as nice s Arrowverse Nyssa, but she is hardcore . . . forcing Bruce to watch as Bane kicks the everloving fuck out of Jim. Also, Bane basically wrecks Alfred, and withstands a nifty Oswald/Ed trap. Eduardo is an interesting variation of the established Banes . . . not a psychotic luchedor, not Latin Dr Evil. Just someone really strong and driven hopped up on Hugo Strange's crap.

I'm really hoping Leslie and Barbara live. I think they could make things work with Jim and the baby. It would be a weird set-up, but they'd be living in Gotham City. It's the place where insanity comes true. Now, the question is whether there would be a Gotham.

25 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

This season has been a pure drag...and an utter disappointment. Glad there's only two episodes left.

#AgreeToDisagree

Edited March 22, 2019 by Lantern7

[DR14]

49 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

I'm sure there's a few Gothamites who felt the city needed remodelling.

That's about all I can say. This season has been a pure drag...and an utter disappointment. Glad there's only two episodes left.

Yeah, I'll watch til the finale but Season 1 to "The Gentle Art of Making Enemies" in S3 is the only portion of this show that for me has any rewatch value.

Edited March 22, 2019 by DR14

[Chaos Theory]

“Hey baby this is your Aunty Kee.  Mommy tried to kill her once.  Maybe twice.”  Best line ever.

The best scene ever was Lee and Barbara escaping the hospital.  Barbara in labor shooting at people.  

It is always nice to see Jaime Murray on my genre shows.    She plays o e hell of a villain.

Edited March 22, 2019 by Chaos Theory

[thuganomics85]

So, Walker is actually Nyssa A'Ghul, huh?  I almost saw it coming, but I thought she was going to be Talia at first, which would have admittedly really made things weird considering the... err, history between Bruce and Talia.  But her gland plan is to make Bruce and Barbara suffer for killing Ra's, and naturally, that pretty much involves destroying all of Gotham since that would really hurt Bruce.  Curious to see more of this take on Nyssa, even though I would normally never consider Jaime Murray a step down from anything, but it will be hard to top Katrina Law's version on Arrow/ the CW D.C. Universe.  To be fair, this is clearly going to be a way different kind of Nyssa compared to that one, so I'm sure I'll come around to it.

Meanwhile, Eduardo has officially become Bane now thanks to Nyssa and Hugo Strange.  Shane West certainly seems to be having fun using his deep, raspy voice for big time evil now, but I hope they establish Bane as a bigger threat than just smacking Selina around or beating up Alfred, who is totally a badass, but still a good bit older than Bane.

Lee wheeling Barbara around as Babs shoots fools was certainly awesome, but the episode really seems to be dropping anvils that Babs won't be around for much longer.  Still think this is all leading to Lee having to raise the child.

Of all the pairing on the show, Oswald/Nygma continue to be the one I loved the most.  Those crazy kids are the best!

They really are dragging this season out, huh?  A four week break before the final two episodes?  Damn, FOX!

[madhacker]

ok I posted my opinion earlier but it seems to have vanished so here goes  another try:

So basically the writers are ripping off Arkham City, but instead of an elite force with helicopters destroying a walled off section of Gotham, the military's going to to the whole enchilada. 

I just want Ozzy and Eddie to get to the docks just in time to see the sub get blown away. Their meltdown will be awesome

live Tv and movies have tried 3 times to do Bane and failed each time but this time they made him a Darth Vader wannabe. I swear the scene in the hospital corridor when he walked through the explosion with his arm on fire I half expected him to pull a lightsaber out. No offense to Shane West btw.

Barbara, you were definitely the MVP tonight but I think it's pretty safe to assume that Nyssa or Banes is gonna kill you. Grief stricken Jim and Lee will naturally name the future Batgirl after you

There's no way Alfred is dead, he still has to rebuild Wayne Manor while "improving the foundations on the northeast corner (making what will be called the Batcave)"

[paigow]

4 hours ago, madhacker said:

There's no way Alfred is dead, he still has to rebuild Wayne Manor while "improving the foundations on the northeast corner (making what will be called the Batcave)"

Did Bane leave Alfred alive on purpose? It would have taken an extra 5 seconds....

[darkestboy]

A good episode, decent introduction to Bane and the Nyssa reveal while it would've been more impacting had we seen more of the character earlier in the season, still was decent enough.

Loved the comedy of Barbara, Leslie, Edward and Oswald working together to keep the former safe from Bane. Maybe Barbara could make it out of the series alive.

Hugo Strange, he just had to come back for one more nasty deed, didn't he?

Poor Alfred getting the back break moment. I did like that he and Selina were a team for most of this episode along with Bruce and Gordon.

Waiting for four weeks for the last two episodes is not a good thing though, 8/10

[Etta Place]

Is it over yet?

I mean, I used to really like this show, and I'll see it through to the end, and I'll enjoy what there is for me to enjoy in each episode, but...

Nygma continues to be the highlight for me most of the time, although Penguin's reaction to everyone saying he'd pointed the gun at the baby might have stolen the show this week. I enjoy Bruce less and less as he approaches Bathood, so I guess it's a good thing there's not much more road to travel there.

[Chaos Theory]

Barbara and Lee make the most awesome comedy duo.   

[Enigma X]

I was not entertained by last night’s episode. Yeah. The whole Nyssa reveal was flat and Bane is just annoying.

[jhlipton]

2 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

Barbara and Lee make the most awesome comedy duo.   

Nygma/Cobblepot are pretty close though!

[Kostgard]

I’m among those who find this season kinda underwhelming. It certainly has its moments (like Oswald shouting “I’M SORRY” at Barbara’s uterus), but it doesn’t feel cohesive, and no where near enough character development.

Bruce is in the same place he was at the beginning of the season. Yeah, Alfred’s injuries and the city being destroyed could push him over the edge, but why haven’t they been building towards Batman instead of a more “one bad day” scenario? He was building towards it last season.

We learn that Jim feels guilty for the shit he put Lee through. But don’t worry - he won’t change, Lee forgives him and nothing really comes of that. Lee? Yeah, she’s just back to season one/two Lee. Don’t worry about it. Ed apparently has lingering feelings from last season, but how does Lee feel about that chapter of her life? No idea. Speaking of Ed - remember how they lingered on him adding the playing card to his wardrobe in the premiere “flash-forward” like it was significant? Like there was a story behind it? Don’t worry about it. He just has it. Remember when Oswald was one of the more complex characters on this show? Not any more, baby. He’s just a straight up evil guy who is sort of bumbling through everything without thinking it through. Don’t worry about the guy who was able to overthrow two major crime families and outsmart the Riddler, or the guy who let himself be played by the daughter of one of those crime families because he was so desperately lonely and wanted to believe she was his friend. This guy we got now is shocked to learn his minions grew to hate him and abandoned him when he starved them (you’d think he’d remember the time he got Maroni’s men to turn on Maroni by offering them more). But at least he’s funny. Also remember how Ivy warned that her cure for Selina would change her? Bring out her dark side and gave her crazy cat eyes? Well, it just made her really want to kill the guy who shot and paralyzed her (which was understandable), but that lasted for, like, a few days. She’s fine now.

That is what is missing for me. Yeah, we’re getting a lot of explosions and new characters, but I want to say goodbye to the characters I know and love. I don’t feel like I’m getting that.

Edited March 22, 2019 by Kostgard

[Chaos Theory]

A part of me is still surprised Barbara Keen has survived this long.  Another part of me will never forgive the show if she doesn’t get to raise her baby after everything she has been through.  

Damn Erin Richards is going on my list of actors to keep my eye on for further projects.

[Biggie B]

It came late in the game, but at least Lee and Ed finally came face to face!

[Gobi]

2 hours ago, jhlipton said:

Nygma/Cobblepot are pretty close though!

Those two together are comic gold for me.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

I guessed Walker was one of Ra's Al Ghul's daughters as soon as Gordon said her name wasn't really Walker, though I was thinking of Talia at first because of the connection to Bane and the pit he'd been in, like in The Dark Knight Rises.

6 hours ago, Biggie B said:

It came late in the game, but at least Lee and Ed finally came face to face!

Finally!

6 hours ago, Kostgard said:

Also remember how Ivy warned that her cure for Selina would change her? Bring out her dark side and gave her crazy cat eyes? Well, it just made her really want to kill the guy who shot and paralyzed her (which was understandable), but that lasted for, like, a few days. She’s fine now.

I wish she had been awake enough to get Bane from behind with her whip around his neck. That would have worked.

I hope Man-Bat actually appears in these last two episodes.

[festivus]

So we have a bunch of boring episodes and then we get this balls to the wall one. The pacing is so off this season. I don't give a shit about Nyssa and Bane so bleh. We finally get Ed and Lee meeting and that was it? It was so anticlimactic.  This show needs to end if this is what they're doing with it. At least Barbara was funny but I'm sure she'll be dead soon. Ugh.

[superloislane]

Pretty good transformation scene with baby Bane

Penguin and Nygma's faces when Barbara started having contractions is amazing 'Congratulations!'

'I will stand guard as I've always done' - oh yes Alfred you will

This episode feels weirdly directed or weirdly lit - I'm not sure which one

Bruce and Selina's hair keeps getting bigger while Alfred gets his cut!

I'm really going to miss Penguin's screams

The actress plays a pretty good Nyssa - but at the same time why does she want revenge? Ra's actually wanted Bruce to kill him and didn't seem that annoyed the second time it happened either!

They are really going for Dark Knight Rises plotting this season aren't they?

I sure hope Talia is Bruce's age

I love how Barbara is still wearing her fabulous coat even in labour

Finally Ed and Lee come face to face and they actually acknowledge that they stabbed each other and had some sort of relationship! That was driving me crazy

Hugo Strange has been the saviour of this show - he's pretty much brought everyone back to life or changed them to advance the plot

Well of course Barbara would be giving birth while shooting people from a wheelchair - it couldn't happen any other way

I actually like that Barbara and Lee can get along now

Alfred called Bane a baby bully ha!

NO ALFRED!

Wow Barbara is up and walking around perfectly fine about 30 minutes after giving birth - she is a really strong woman!

After two episodes where not much happened - boom EVERYTHING HAPPENS! I know they didn't know they would have those two extra episodes but if I was watching it without that knowledge I would think they paced it really badly.

Four weeks until the next episodes?! I mean on the one hand I'm glad we still have a bit longer with this show but on the other...come on!

I feel like every single character are where they were at the beginning of the season. The only one that's different is Nygma I guess but that's only because he had a chip. I felt they were developing Bruce into Batman a lot better last season but this season that feels like the C plot if anything! What's going on?

Edited March 23, 2019 by superloislane

[Danielg342]

On 3/22/2019 at 3:15 PM, Kostgard said:

I’m among those who find this season kinda underwhelming. It certainly has its moments (like Oswald shouting “I’M SORRY” at Barbara’s uterus), but it doesn’t feel cohesive, and no where near enough character development.

This is what frustrates me about the series as a whole.

You have a show that has a deep well of characters and settings and plots to draw from, meaning right from the start there's this rich, all-encompassing universe that intrigues you right from the start.

You also have a show whose direction makes so many points to pay attention to details by not just creating mood-setting, visually stunning sets but by keeping things consistent as well. The show wanted to have a "timeless" feel and kept to it by keeping the cars in the '70s and eschewing technology aside from giving the GCPD flip phones.

You also have a show whose acting is off the charts, with the likes of Donal Logue, Morena Baccharin, Robin Lord Taylor, Ben McKenzie (when he's inspired), Michael Chiklis, Cameron Monaghan, Sean Pertwee, Crystal Reed, BD Wong and Benedict Samuel. Then you have your breakout talents like Erin Richards, David Mazouz, Camren Bicondova, Cory Michael-Smith, and so on and so on...I'm missing some people but the acting on this show has been off the charts. Even the guests have been top notch, from Isiah Whitlock early in S1 to Naian Gonzalez Norvind (Tetch's sister) in S3 to Alexander Sidding in S4 to Andrew Sellon (Mr. Penn) in S5.

I mean, aside from Criminal Minds and The Orville, I haven't seen a show with this deep of a cast on TV, and they really helped bring these characters to life.

Then, lastly, you have characters like Oswald Cobblepott and Ra's al-Ghul and storylines like the front half of S4 and most of S1 that actually provide some compelling stories which points to the potential of the series.

...and that's where it's lost me.

This really feels like a series that could have delivered so much more. Perhaps it took on too much too quickly (the Pilot alone had so many "Batman Easter Eggs" that it felt like overkill), but there were also so many decisions the writers made that short circuited this series. Oswald's story devolved into a mind-numbing series where he rises and then falls. Teflon Galavan was an exercise in frustration (and not in a good way). Way too many stories have been wasted putting the likes of Jim or Bruce or Oswald in peril when the audience knows it'll be wasted drama anyway.

Not to mention all the wasted opportunities to do something with the likes of Logue, Baccharin, and Richards (to a large degree).

Then, of course, was the promise of the story of how Bruce became Batman and how Jim became Commissioner...and the series has only delivered on a token acknowledgement of those storylines. Sure, Jim is Captain but you don't get the sense he'll be promoted any time soon. As for Bruce, he may have played around in some "bat suits" but we still don't know why he'd want to call himself "Batman" nor do we see him as an all-out, effective vigilante.

He's still just a kid who sticks his nose into situations that may- or may not- resolve in his favour.

I remember when this show started- I've been right there since the opening minutes of the Pilot and haven't missed a minute since- and how it progressed through S1 and thinking, "this is appointment television". S1 seemed to have an actual plan and an actual storyline that indicated it could deliver on all this richness and potential.

Then something happened, but I stuck with it. Why? Because I just had this feeling that the show would get back on track, because the show at its best would be the best show ever on television, and that's not hyperbole.

...and I just waited, and waited...and waited some more...for Gotham to rediscover its magic and make it the must-see TV it could have been.

...but, it just never came. Whether or not it was the weight of expectations, executive meddling or the writing staff just not up to the task, I'm faced with the feeling that Gotham just never delivered.

That's the most bittersweet thing about this series. I'm sure you could say that about the vast majority of TV series- they'll all let you down eventually- but I don't feel as let down as I do with how Gotham has ended.

So, I'm glad it's wrapping up...but I'm also saddened that it didn't end how it really could have.

[Camera One]

I just watched this one and for the third-to-last episode, it was pretty much interchangeable with any other shoot-up everything/people-get-kidnapped-and-beat-up/villain-goes-muahahahahahahahahahahhahaah episode from the last few seasons.  

Bane was boring... heck, even at its worse, at least Batman movies usually give villains a good origin story.  Plus I had no idea what he was saying half the time so they might as well have cut the dialogue.  I couldn't take Nyssa seriously after watching that actress play an equally annoying monologue-prone villain called The Black Fairy on "Once Upon a Time".

There were some amusing moments with Lee, Barbara, Penguin and Ed, but beyond that, how many times do we have to play the same story beats again?  These characters are all cardboard cut-outs at this point.  They're not given situations that make the character grow, or move closer to where they will end up (which essentially is the purpose of a prequel).  

I was hoping Dr. Strange would restrain Bruce and give him a haircut.

Edited March 25, 2019 by Camera One

[jhlipton]

18 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

Then something happened, but I stuck with it. Why? Because I just had this feeling that the show would get back on track, because the show at its best would be the best show ever on television, and that's not hyperbole.

I stuck with because, for all its faults (and as you say, there are many), it's still has momentary flashes of genius (mostly the Nygma/Cobblepot frenemy scenes -- right from Season 1, they were a pair that worked so well together).  And only one other show (Legends of Tomorrow) has embraced its bat-shit craziness, lampshaded with "It's Gotham, Jim".

[Chaos Theory]

I think that even at its worst Gotham is one of the best action/adventure shows on tv 

[jay741982]

On 3/22/2019 at 8:36 AM, icemiser69 said:

So, we have to wait four weeks for the next episode after no episode last week.  And a new one this week.  What the hell?  Why drag it out?  Obviously, this series was cancelled due to ratings.   Just air the last two episodes and call it a series.

Will someone please put an end to Hugo Strange.

So the finale can air in the sweeps period is my guess PLUS avoiding airing during the NCAA Sweet Sixteen games 

[Kostgard]

On 3/24/2019 at 3:43 PM, Danielg342 said:

I remember when this show started- I've been right there since the opening minutes of the Pilot and haven't missed a minute since- and how it progressed through S1 and thinking, "this is appointment television". S1 seemed to have an actual plan and an actual storyline that indicated it could deliver on all this richness and potential.

Then something happened, but I stuck with it. Why? Because I just had this feeling that the show would get back on track, because the show at its best would be the best show ever on television, and that's not hyperbole.

...and I just waited, and waited...and waited some more...for Gotham to rediscover its magic and make it the must-see TV it could have been.

...but, it just never came. Whether or not it was the weight of expectations, executive meddling or the writing staff just not up to the task, I'm faced with the feeling that Gotham just never delivered.

That's the most bittersweet thing about this series. I'm sure you could say that about the vast majority of TV series- they'll all let you down eventually- but I don't feel as let down as I do with how Gotham has ended.

So, I'm glad it's wrapping up...but I'm also saddened that it didn't end how it really could have.

This is pretty much where I am at. 

I didn't think Season One was all that strong, in that it was basically a police procedural that included Batman characters. But they did have something good in Oswald's story line  - the one really serialized aspect in an otherwise episodic show. They did a great job of showing him manipulate his way to the top.

And I think it was smart of them to pivot away from an episodic format and move to serialized (as comic books are), and I really admire them for just embracing the crazy campy-ness, coming away with a Batman story that was equal parts Nolan and Burton, with some Schumacher and original TV series sprinkled in for kicks. 

But while that was great, they had the opportunity to really explore these characters. And they had so many good ideas that just sort of sputtered out. And that's what is disappointing. All the other elements were in place, but instead of really digging in, it's all, "Oh, wait! Let's drop this and bring in a bazillion minor Batman villains. Look everyone! It's Man-Bat!" or "Well, we had something good here, but let's just drop it to go play with Jerome/Jeremiah/Joker/Whatever for a while!" (Don't get me wrong - Cameron Monaghan has done great things with these characters. But too often when he shows up the writers just shove everyone else off the screen and stop their development). 

I really, really thought that they had it finally locked in at the beginning of Season Four. I think the first half of that season is probably the strongest for this show. The character development was very good. First, Sofia was a great villain because she was actually smart and playing several people at once without winking to the audience while doing it (People on TV are usually terrible liars to telegraph to the audience "Hey! I'm lying!" Sofia never did that). Everything was really thought through - not just Crystal Reed's performance, but things right down to her wardrobe. Go back and look - check the difference in her outfits and hairstyles when she's meeting with Jim and when she's meeting with Oswald (sleek and sexy for Jim, soft and feminine for Oswald), and the evolution of her wardrobe around Oswald while she poked around to figure out what would work on him (Jim she had figured out right away). I mean, by the time she introduced the orphanage she was practically dressed like Mary Poppins in that scene. Then right when she should have been at her most dangerous and we would have had to really see the regular characters pull out the stops to defeat her, they...just shot her in the head and swept her aside so they could play with Jerome/Jeremiah instead. Again, he's fun, but they tossed away a great character to make room for him.

The other characters suffered too. They FINALLY had Jim start to acknowledge what a hypocrite he was, what with teaming up with Sofia basically because he didn't like Oswald outshining him and the stuff with Pyg (the scene with Jim in the ambulance with Pyg where he confesses how much he sucks was great), but then all that was gone by the time Season Five rolled around. The only hints we had are the feelings of loyalty/guilt he seems to have toward Oswald that may explain why he refuses to kill him/take him down (there was a great moment in season four when they found Oswald on the street after his escape from Arkham and Oswald's having his meltdown because he just realized that Penn had betrayed him as well, and Jim just has this guilty look on his face. Like he finally realized the role he played in breaking Oswald and making him what he is), but that was never explored further. Let's bring on Bane for some reason. I doubt we'll ever revisit why in the beginning of the season Jim just would not kill Oswald even when everyone else was telling him to. And the stuff with Lee just kinda got swept to the side too. Don't worry about it, they're happy now.

Everyone else suffered too. I thought it was interesting to see Lee try to do penance for her part in the virus mess by helping the people hit the hardest. Instead she because the THIRD character to be all, "Breaking bad set me free!" (after Barbara and Ed). Then even that was dropped by season five. Ed lost everything about his identity, and it became a question of which side of his personality would win out. But then it was all, "Don't worry about it - he's the Riddler now. Look at Jeremiah go!" And honestly, his character is no different now than he was at the end of season three except he's not mad at Oswald anymore. Bruce too started out season four great - he was trying out the vigilante thing, got in over his head and Ra's sent him into a spiral. You'd think all this stuff would have a greater impact, but he's just the rich kid who helps out the cops like he's been since about season three. Season four moved him forward because he started operating and seeking out criminals on his own, but now he doesn't do that outside of incidents where he's specifically helping someone like Selina, which he's done all through the series. And the less said about the mess that was the Ra's story line (and Barbara's part in it) the better. At least they seemed to retroactively realize that Barbara's "all men suck" stance was dumb, because that didn't really go anywhere. But that's symptomatic of the problem -they get these ideas, then it feels like they change their minds midstream three or four times and stuff ends up going no where.

So, the action/adventure and general WTF-ery of this show has always been fun. But if they actually took the time to develop these characters well, it could have gone from "This is a fun way to kill an hour" to appointment television. As it stands, I've only watched maybe half the eps this season live so far, because I'm just not excited about it.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Kostgard

[Camera One]

I stuck with it because the characters have a lot of history and the actors portray them so well that they *could* handle an interesting and natural "how they came to be" arc for their characters if the writing let them.  So I tune in hoping that these characters might get to play out their potential.  But the overall plot tends to bore me to the point where I let several episodes (most recently, an entire half a season) accumulate before watching them all at once when I have a bunch of paperwork to do.  I suppose I give them props for keeping me around... I couldn't even do that with "Smallville" after I quit in Season 6.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Camera One

[Danielg342]

Emblematic of Gotham's problems is that the writers never seemed to decide on what kind of story they wanted to tell. Sure, they had an idea about where they wanted to end up- how the world of Batman came to be- but they never could figure out what path they wanted to take to get there.

Simply put, they needed to figure out what their central narrative was and take it from there:

• Was this show going to be about how Bruce grew up into Batman?
• Was this show going to be about how Jim rose up in the ranks?
• Was this show going to be about how The Joker shows up and only Bruce can outsmart him?
• Was this show going to be a tragedy about how the city of Gotham went from a utopia to a dystopia?
• Was this show going to be about how Oswald became mayor and eventually destroyed things?
• Was this show going to be about the battle between Oswald and Jim as a prelude to Joker vs. Batman?
• Was this show going to be about how Alfred taught Bruce on how to become Batman?
• Was this show going to be a love story between Bruce and Selina?
• Etc.

...you get the idea.

There's nothing wrong with having multiple storylines- in a long series, they will be inevitable- but for a series to work, a central story, arc or theme has to be present that creates and drives those stories. You can't bake a cake and change the ingredients halfway through- you're going to be left with a morass no one will enjoy. Instead, you keep the core ingredients of the cake the same and if you want to add some touches, you use icing and sprinkles and whipped cream and stuff like that.

OK, not sure if that analogy worked...but you get the idea. Art needs to be organic where you let things develop from the original vision- otherwise, it's too hard to follow along.

[tennisgurl]

I could watch Lee pushing a pregnant Barbara around while she shoots fools all day long. While Ed and Penguin just look confused and flustered by all this baby stuff.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎3‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 1:04 AM, Danielg342 said:

I'm sure there's a few Gothamites who felt the city needed remodelling.

That's about all I can say. This season has been a pure drag...and an utter disappointment. Glad there's only two episodes left.

I think the problem was actually the 2 extra eps, whilst they'd normally be a cause for celebration introducing them so late in the day made them so obviously filler it slowed the pace of the season. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎3‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 1:13 AM, HoodlumSheep said:

There's been very little momentum this season and it feels like it's only just finally picking up a little steam...with only two episodes to go 😞

honestly the best part of the episode for me was was Lee wheeling an in-labor babs through the hallway at full throttle while babs shot down the mooks. That had me reeling with laughter.

Couldn't understand a majority of what bane was saying, but what's new?

Nyssa showing up just makes me miss ra's 😢

Amazing shot she is, two handed in a moving wheelchair and having contractions, maybe something Ras gave her. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎3‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 1:30 AM, Lantern7 said:

Only two more episodes. Dang, The months have gone pretty fast. I mean, I don't think any other series could have a scene where a woman in the throes of childbirth is rushed on a wheelchair, firing at people trying to murder her. I mean, maybe Legends of Tomorrow, but their crazy is different.

I know, on some levels, this series has been so stupid . . . but then you have moments where Oswald realizes that he pointed a gun at Barbara's baby, tries to write it off as merely being threatening, then yelling, "Okay, fine! I'M SORRY!!!!" Shit, Oswald and Ed in general. They ain't the World's Finest, but they are Gotham's Craziest. And Nyssa coming in as perhaps the Final Boss of the series. And fuck, she ain't as nice s Arrowverse Nyssa, but she is hardcore . . . forcing Bruce to watch as Bane kicks the everloving fuck out of Jim. Also, Bane basically wrecks Alfred, and withstands a nifty Oswald/Ed trap. Eduardo is an interesting variation of the established Banes . . . not a psychotic luchedor, not Latin Dr Evil. Just someone really strong and driven hopped up on Hugo Strange's crap.

I'm really hoping Leslie and Barbara live. I think they could make things work with Jim and the baby. It would be a weird set-up, but they'd be living in Gotham City. It's the place where insanity comes true. Now, the question is whether there would be a Gotham.

#AgreeToDisagree

Gotham has a logic all of its' own. What other city needs a vigilante who dresses as a bat to solve all its' problems?

On ‎3‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 1:47 AM, DR14 said:

Yeah, I'll watch til the finale but Season 1 to "The Gentle Art of Making Enemies" in S3 is the only portion of this show that for me has any rewatch value.

I plan to rewatch once it's finished but I'll wait for the Bluerays in the hope of extras. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎3‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 2:33 AM, thuganomics85 said:

So, Walker is actually Nyssa A'Ghul, huh?  I almost saw it coming, but I thought she was going to be Talia at first, which would have admittedly really made things weird considering the... err, history between Bruce and Talia.  But her gland plan is to make Bruce and Barbara suffer for killing Ra's, and naturally, that pretty much involves destroying all of Gotham since that would really hurt Bruce.  Curious to see more of this take on Nyssa, even though I would normally never consider Jaime Murray a step down from anything, but it will be hard to top Katrina Law's version on Arrow/ the CW D.C. Universe.  To be fair, this is clearly going to be a way different kind of Nyssa compared to that one, so I'm sure I'll come around to it.

Meanwhile, Eduardo has officially become Bane now thanks to Nyssa and Hugo Strange.  Shane West certainly seems to be having fun using his deep, raspy voice for big time evil now, but I hope they establish Bane as a bigger threat than just smacking Selina around or beating up Alfred, who is totally a badass, but still a good bit older than Bane.

Lee wheeling Barbara around as Babs shoots fools was certainly awesome, but the episode really seems to be dropping anvils that Babs won't be around for much longer.  Still think this is all leading to Lee having to raise the child.

Of all the pairing on the show, Oswald/Nygma continue to be the one I loved the most.  Those crazy kids are the best!

They really are dragging this season out, huh?  A four week break before the final two episodes?  Damn, FOX!

I looked up the actress on IMDB and unfortunately got spoiled but one more ref to the Nolan Batman films. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎3‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 4:22 AM, madhacker said:

ok I posted my opinion earlier but it seems to have vanished so here goes  another try:

So basically the writers are ripping off Arkham City, but instead of an elite force with helicopters destroying a walled off section of Gotham, the military's going to to the whole enchilada. 

I just want Ozzy and Eddie to get to the docks just in time to see the sub get blown away. Their meltdown will be awesome

live Tv and movies have tried 3 times to do Bane and failed each time but this time they made him a Darth Vader wannabe. I swear the scene in the hospital corridor when he walked through the explosion with his arm on fire I half expected him to pull a lightsaber out. No offense to Shane West btw.

Barbara, you were definitely the MVP tonight but I think it's pretty safe to assume that Nyssa or Banes is gonna kill you. Grief stricken Jim and Lee will naturally name the future Batgirl after you

There's no way Alfred is dead, he still has to rebuild Wayne Manor while "improving the foundations on the northeast corner (making what will be called the Batcave)"

Not dead but will we find him in a wheelchair? Is it time to seek Ivy out again?

On ‎3‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 12:36 PM, icemiser69 said:

So, we have to wait four weeks for the next episode after no episode last week.  And a new one this week.  What the hell?  Why drag it out?  Obviously, this series was cancelled due to ratings.   Just air the last two episodes and call it a series.

Will someone please put an end to Hugo Strange.

No, because how else are we to bring other characters back?

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎3‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 7:53 PM, Biggie B said:

It came late in the game, but at least Lee and Ed finally came face to face!

You did wonder if they'd ever address that?

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎3‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 10:43 PM, Danielg342 said:

This is what frustrates me about the series as a whole.

You have a show that has a deep well of characters and settings and plots to draw from, meaning right from the start there's this rich, all-encompassing universe that intrigues you right from the start.

You also have a show whose direction makes so many points to pay attention to details by not just creating mood-setting, visually stunning sets but by keeping things consistent as well. The show wanted to have a "timeless" feel and kept to it by keeping the cars in the '70s and eschewing technology aside from giving the GCPD flip phones.

You also have a show whose acting is off the charts, with the likes of Donal Logue, Morena Baccharin, Robin Lord Taylor, Ben McKenzie (when he's inspired), Michael Chiklis, Cameron Monaghan, Sean Pertwee, Crystal Reed, BD Wong and Benedict Samuel. Then you have your breakout talents like Erin Richards, David Mazouz, Camren Bicondova, Cory Michael-Smith, and so on and so on...I'm missing some people but the acting on this show has been off the charts. Even the guests have been top notch, from Isiah Whitlock early in S1 to Naian Gonzalez Norvind (Tetch's sister) in S3 to Alexander Sidding in S4 to Andrew Sellon (Mr. Penn) in S5.

I mean, aside from Criminal Minds and The Orville, I haven't seen a show with this deep of a cast on TV, and they really helped bring these characters to life.

Then, lastly, you have characters like Oswald Cobblepott and Ra's al-Ghul and storylines like the front half of S4 and most of S1 that actually provide some compelling stories which points to the potential of the series.

...and that's where it's lost me.

This really feels like a series that could have delivered so much more. Perhaps it took on too much too quickly (the Pilot alone had so many "Batman Easter Eggs" that it felt like overkill), but there were also so many decisions the writers made that short circuited this series. Oswald's story devolved into a mind-numbing series where he rises and then falls. Teflon Galavan was an exercise in frustration (and not in a good way). Way too many stories have been wasted putting the likes of Jim or Bruce or Oswald in peril when the audience knows it'll be wasted drama anyway.

Not to mention all the wasted opportunities to do something with the likes of Logue, Baccharin, and Richards (to a large degree).

Then, of course, was the promise of the story of how Bruce became Batman and how Jim became Commissioner...and the series has only delivered on a token acknowledgement of those storylines. Sure, Jim is Captain but you don't get the sense he'll be promoted any time soon. As for Bruce, he may have played around in some "bat suits" but we still don't know why he'd want to call himself "Batman" nor do we see him as an all-out, effective vigilante.

He's still just a kid who sticks his nose into situations that may- or may not- resolve in his favour.

I remember when this show started- I've been right there since the opening minutes of the Pilot and haven't missed a minute since- and how it progressed through S1 and thinking, "this is appointment television". S1 seemed to have an actual plan and an actual storyline that indicated it could deliver on all this richness and potential.

Then something happened, but I stuck with it. Why? Because I just had this feeling that the show would get back on track, because the show at its best would be the best show ever on television, and that's not hyperbole.

...and I just waited, and waited...and waited some more...for Gotham to rediscover its magic and make it the must-see TV it could have been.

...but, it just never came. Whether or not it was the weight of expectations, executive meddling or the writing staff just not up to the task, I'm faced with the feeling that Gotham just never delivered.

That's the most bittersweet thing about this series. I'm sure you could say that about the vast majority of TV series- they'll all let you down eventually- but I don't feel as let down as I do with how Gotham has ended.

So, I'm glad it's wrapping up...but I'm also saddened that it didn't end how it really could have.

would things have been different if s5 got the full 22?

[Joe Hellandback]

1. Darn, I hoped they'd base the SS Gertrude on the sub from the Batman film with Penguin flippers etc 

2.  Ironically they aim to launch it off the dock they both agreed they'd never want to see again. 

3.  How did Barbara manage to steal the sub part? Perhaps her little pet kitty nabbed it for her?

4.  But she lost her killer bimbos! Still that's another reason for her to come back to the good guys, cutting her ties to the underworld. 

5. Nice to see Alfred and Selina as a team, wish we had more time to explore that. 

6. Boy, Gotham really likes to raise the hope of characters then pull the rug out from under them! Jim has reunification and a new baby in the same day and both are taken away from him. 

7.  Ed and Lee have a momentary reconciliation. As Oswald points out, if he's already swiped the sub part why does he hang around to help Lee and Barbara? 

8. Bane rather reminds me off Michael Chilkis character from earlier seasons although you wonder why no helmet?

9. 2 gun wheelchair Barbara is an extraordinary shot, especially whilst having contractions! An ability Ras gave her?

10. Crippled Alfred, couldn't watch it, time for Selina to seek out Ivy?

11. Why does Alfred get out of the car? Why not just put Lee and Babs in the back and keep running Bane over?

12. So now we know why the Gothamites are fighting the army in our glimpse of the future

[John Potts]

I'm sorry - did Penguin & Edd not realise Unification was happening? A sub seems excessive when you could just walk off the island now!

Gotta say, I love the idea that, "I'm going into labour, there is no pain you can inflict on me that's worse!"

So Dr Strange's plan was to begin with the physical improvements and then the mental conditioning? Can't see how that could go wrong. And if the plan was to allow Jim to escape - that's one hell of a risk for Hugo to take. I know Jim's a hero, but even heroes will kill if they have to. And with his new (if, presumably, temporary) super strength, he might just kill you accidentally.

I realise the military isn't meant to be heroic in comics - but haven't any of the soldiers heard of illegal orders? And did they just sit around while their General was captured!? They didn't seem any plan to rescue him under way - more like, "Oh, General, good to see you back. Been somewhere nice?"

On ‎3‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 1:30 AM, Lantern7 said:

I don't think any other series could have a scene where a woman in the throes of childbirth is rushed on a wheelchair, firing at people trying to murder her.

You obviously haven't seen Farscape: The Peacekeeper Wars where Aeryn Sun fires off a huge gun while giving birth ("It makes me feel better!").

On ‎3‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 2:10 AM, Chaos Theory said:

“Hey baby this is your Aunty Lee.  Mommy tried to kill her once.  Maybe twice.”  Best line ever.

I mean, what's the occasional murder attempt between friends? 

ETA: Bruce clearly needs to study up on Briar Patching, because it obviously was torturing him to watch Jim being beaten up. But he's only a Baby Bat and still has much to learn!

Edited July 18, 2019 by John Potts

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎7‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 11:28 PM, John Potts said:

I'm sorry - did Penguin & Edd not realise Unification was happening? A sub seems excessive when you could just walk off the island now!

Gotta say, I love the idea that, "I'm going into labour, there is no pain you can inflict on me that's worse!"

So Dr Strange's plan was to begin with the physical improvements and then the mental conditioning? Can't see how that could go wrong. And if the plan was to allow Jim to escape - that's one hell of a risk for Hugo to take. I know Jim's a hero, but even heroes will kill if they have to. And with his new (if, presumably, temporary) super strength, he might just kill you accidentally.

I realise the military isn't meant to be heroic in comics - but haven't any of the soldiers heard of illegal orders? And did they just sit around while their General was captured!? They didn't seem any plan to rescue him under way - more like, "Oh, General, good to see you back. Been somewhere nice?"

You obviously haven't seen Farscape: The Peacekeeper Wars where Aeryn Sun fires off a huge gun while giving birth ("It makes me feel better!").

I mean, what's the occasional murder attempt between friends? 

ETA: Bruce clearly needs to study up on Briar Patching, because it obviously was torturing him to watch Jim being beaten up. But he's only a Baby Bat and still has much to learn!

Yes but they probably fear they're going to get locked up once L&O is restored? As far as the soldiers are concerned they think they're blasting Zsaz and Scarecrow etc, not the Green Zone   

[John Potts]

7 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Yes but they probably fear they're going to get locked up once L&O is restored?

Maybe, but once a crossing is established, there is inevitably going to be a huge amount of traffic in each direction. I'd far sooner trust my ability to smuggle out a couple of people (and pile of gold!) than a home made submarine to get me out.

[Danielg342]

On 7/16/2019 at 4:12 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

would things have been different if s5 got the full 22?

I don't really think it would. I suppose you can never know given those episodes don't exist, but many of the same trends that had derailed the show from S1 were still present in S5, even in its truncated form.