S01.E16: The Rosary

[debraran]

18 minutes ago, iwasish said:

Its a violation of Jon’s privacy. Especially since it was a suicide. Carrying boxes to her car or home is one thing. Sorting his stuff in front of a stranger? I think it’s wrong.   But I guess for Delilah as you’ve said it’s about her. 

Can you see any parent or spouse saying, "I don't want to know why, nothing I learn will bring him back?" What a ridiculous statement and it's been long enough for someone to call her on it. Danny and Sophie might like to know Mom and it's not always "about you".  We know you were leaving him, bags packed, not grieving, but fake it for the kids.

[Madding crowd]

I’m not so hard on Delilah and think people grieve in different ways. I don’t hear her whining, I hear a person who still doesn’t understand her husbands suicide, his secret life and his concern for his secretary and his apartment  over his own kids. When people commit suicide there is a level of anger too that makes it hard to think clearly.

When my friend lost her husband we rallied around her and brought her family meals, drove her kids to school and did all kinds of things to make easier for her. It didn’t mean she was selfish. 

I actually find both Maggie and Gary whine more  than Delilah although I guess Maggie has an excuse.

[debraran]

Jon seemed to love his wife but it was obvious Delilah didn't love Jon, not that way. She was planning on leaving him if he showed up that night and had her bags packed. She was pregnant with her lovers baby (we think) and I suppose was going to continue to live off Jon's money. It seemed like she was leaving the children there.

I've known people who had parents or husband's commit suicide and it was awful and people grieve differently but I don't think Delilah grieved as a loving wife, but more for his kids and later anger over having her lifestyle threatened. The lack of curiosity (to me) is apathy on her part. It's funny, she wanted to talk that night but what about all the others? She was not needing help to buy things or food etc. it was just what Jon probably did for her and maybe why she thought he would be the better constant parent.

Gary has issues, I feel will come out later. He has a hot temper but there is more to him then we will see now.

Edited February 23, 2019 by debraran

[readster]

52 minutes ago, debraran said:

Jon seemed to love his wife but it was obvious Delilah didn't love Jon, not that way. She was planning on leaving him if he showed up that night and had her bags packed. She was pregnant with her lovers baby (we think) and I suppose was going to continue to live off Jon's money. It seemed like she was leaving the children there.

I've known people who had parents or husband's commit suicide and it was awful and people grieve differently but I don't think Delilah grieved as a loving wife, but more for his kids and later anger over having her lifestyle threatened. The lack of curiosity (to me) is apathy on her part. It's funny, she wanted to talk that night but what about all the others? She was not needing help to buy things or food etc. it was just what Jon probably did for her and maybe why she thought he would be the better constant parent.

Delilah is written like a 15 year old teen (though her daughter seems pretty self sustaining) where she has always had people do things for her at a moment's notice. Barely doing anything for herself outside making herself a sandwich or getting dress. She has made things all about herself and even hearing a bit of her past earlier in the season. It seems she always relied on someone to do things for her and it was about her own well being. Her grieving with her children was to make them feel better and not look selfish. Since then every time they try bring up all this stuff with Jon, she acts like she just doesn't want to hear it or learn anything about his past. Because apparently Jon DIDN'T want anyone to know, which really makes even less sense. It just continues to paint Delilah that she has everyone with a snap of her fingers and the person who should have called her on it with Regina. Because seriously, that showed that why no one would do things for her, Delilah says: "Oh, I gave myself a paper cut" and everyone runs to her side. 

[Lady Calypso]

1 hour ago, Madding crowd said:

I’m not so hard on Delilah and think people grieve in different ways. I don’t hear her whining, I hear a person who still doesn’t understand her husbands suicide, his secret life and his concern for his secretary and his apartment  over his own kids. When people commit suicide there is a level of anger too that makes it hard to think clearly.

 When my friend lost her husband we rallied around her and brought her family meals, drove her kids to school and did all kinds of things to make easier for her. It didn’t mean she was selfish. 

I actually find both Maggie and Gary whine more  than Delilah although I guess Maggie has an excuse.

I do agree that Gary and Maggie seem to whine more than Delilah, but I think they're simply more vocal and more obvious about it. There's a reason why Gary annoys me and that's because of how he acts when things don't go his way. No, show, I don't think Gary's the best character ever just because the actor is one of the best ones on the show. Gary can be selfish and controlling and stubborn. 

However, there IS something that does bug me about Delilah and I'm pretty sure this isn't Nash's intentions. Delilah has been too...unaffected by Jon's suicide, in the sense that we hear about her grief more than actually seeing it. There's also a disconnect with Sophie and Danny's grief because they've hardly been on the show but they've also shown very little signs of grieving for their father. And because of that, Delilah doesn't really seem concerned about her children and their grief.

But more so, we haven't seen Delilah take much charge without asking someone for help. I think the show has failed when it comes to Delilah. Almost every episode, she's needed someone else to take charge. Maybe she's just a truly passive person, but with the loss of Jon months ago, you'd think she wouldn't be asking Gary to help with Danny, for example, or that she wouldn't need her new love interest to help out so much with the restaurant. I guess it's more because we haven't really seen her do much by herself. 

Then again, every single person, besides Gary, has been super chill after Jon's death and seemed to have moved on BESIDES some dialogue here and there about Jon. This show has utterly failed when it comes to the subject of suicide and the aftermath of dealing with it. I'd hardly recommend this show to anyone as a lesson about suicide and suicide prevention....because they've barely discussed it in the first place. See how oddly they've handled Rome's suicide attempt. He's gone from lying about his depression to taking meds to going off meds to having maybe one side effect to going back on the meds to discussing him going to therapy to him deciding to volunteer at a suicide hotline center. But....it's very shallow in terms of actual plot. They're not diving into the subject so the show they presented initially is far from the show they're presenting now. 

[Clanstarling]

3 hours ago, debraran said:

Who was that?  Einstein was an atheist or agnostic (depending what you read) but I always loved his quote :

“The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. He to whom the emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand wrapped in awe, is as good as dead —his eyes are closed. The insight into the mystery of life, coupled though it be with fear, has also given rise to religion. To know what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty, which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their most primitive forms—this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness.”

Some people can't understand how anyone can feel differently than they do.

Oprah. Believe it or not. I double checked, because I couldn't believe it.

[debraran]

3 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I do agree that Gary and Maggie seem to whine more than Delilah, but I think they're simply more vocal and more obvious about it. There's a reason why Gary annoys me and that's because of how he acts when things don't go his way. No, show, I don't think Gary's the best character ever just because the actor is one of the best ones on the show. Gary can be selfish and controlling and stubborn. 

However, there IS something that does bug me about Delilah and I'm pretty sure this isn't Nash's intentions. Delilah has been too...unaffected by Jon's suicide, in the sense that we hear about her grief more than actually seeing it. There's also a disconnect with Sophie and Danny's grief because they've hardly been on the show but they've also shown very little signs of grieving for their father. And because of that, Delilah doesn't really seem concerned about her children and their grief.

But more so, we haven't seen Delilah take much charge without asking someone for help. I think the show has failed when it comes to Delilah. Almost every episode, she's needed someone else to take charge. Maybe she's just a truly passive person, but with the loss of Jon months ago, you'd think she wouldn't be asking Gary to help with Danny, for example, or that she wouldn't need her new love interest to help out so much with the restaurant. I guess it's more because we haven't really seen her do much by herself. 

Then again, every single person, besides Gary, has been super chill after Jon's death and seemed to have moved on BESIDES some dialogue here and there about Jon. This show has utterly failed when it comes to the subject of suicide and the aftermath of dealing with it. I'd hardly recommend this show to anyone as a lesson about suicide and suicide prevention....because they've barely discussed it in the first place. See how oddly they've handled Rome's suicide attempt. He's gone from lying about his depression to taking meds to going off meds to having maybe one side effect to going back on the meds to discussing him going to therapy to him deciding to volunteer at a suicide hotline center. But....it's very shallow in terms of actual plot. They're not diving into the subject so the show they presented initially is far from the show they're presenting now. 

I agree 100%. I originally thought it was going to be a better "Thritysomething" from long ago or a drama/comedy with education about suicide mixed in. It was plugged that way but of course became a soap with mysteries all the time. I felt the absence of the suicide aftermath constantly in the scripts and the lack of even a throwaway line about the kids talking to someone. (not Gary or Maggie) Jon helped everyone else but no one really knew him or cared to ask about him. He must have come from a very rich family to have money to buy a building in college or soon after. No mention of his family which might be on purpose to bring them back as Nash feels warranted or how they were effected by it. Why was no one interested in his life before marriage? Teen children that had a father publicly kill himself in a tragic, chilling way, don't just bury their dad and get a hug from mom now and then and are fine. If you don't want to show them, just mention some help.

When I was a young adult I had a childhood friend commit suicide and I was devastated and had questions.  I still bring it up on occasion. I still think of him and I know people closer to him were even more effected by it.

Nash does a disservice throwing up 800 numbers but not giving Rome a good story line or having his friends ask about him and how he is doing.  His suicide attempt is an afterthought. I don't know if he's in a good place to work a hotline but I'm glad he is trying to do something to help. So many people feel like him and PJ and it would be nice in between the adultery and cancer and pregnancies, they had some reality about suicide. I hope with some good feedback he does better next season. I like many of them but the scripts need improvement.

Edited February 23, 2019 by debraran

[Madding crowd]

6 hours ago, debraran said:

Jon seemed to love his wife but it was obvious Delilah didn't love Jon, not that way. She was planning on leaving him if he showed up that night and had her bags packed. She was pregnant with her lovers baby (we think) and I suppose was going to continue to live off Jon's money. It seemed like she was leaving the children there.

I've known people who had parents or husband's commit suicide and it was awful and people grieve differently but I don't think Delilah grieved as a loving wife, but more for his kids and later anger over having her lifestyle threatened. The lack of curiosity (to me) is apathy on her part. It's funny, she wanted to talk that night but what about all the others? She was not needing help to buy things or food etc. it was just what Jon probably did for her and maybe why she thought he would be the better constant parent.

Gary has issues, I feel will come out later. He has a hot temper but there is more to him then we will see now.

I don’t see Jon loving his wife or kids. He had a secret life apart from them, spent more time with his secretary than his family and left  them in a potentially dire situation financially.

Edited February 23, 2019 by Madding crowd

[alexvillage]

7 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

It didn't really bother me, as it is a very old expression that's been used time and again and was used in contrast to Gary's beliefs. I'm more an atheistically leaning agnostic, myself, but I was much more offended recently by a certain celebrity who said atheists couldn't experience awe.

It doesn't offend me but I think that it is time for some used phrases to stop being used. 

As for celebrity, I don't know who you are talking about but I know that Oprah insists that atheists are just people who haven't found god yet, and are just late to the enlightenment. Bout one more thing for me to hate about her (she once told a blind author that he is not really blind - because she does't accept that identity is not about her and that she knows more about another person than the person themself)

[nexxie]

21 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

I don’t see Jon loving his wife or kids. He had a secret life apart from them, spent more time with his secretary than his family and left  them in a potentially dire situation financially.

It’s interesting how much is read into characters that viewers don’t actually know much about yet. Jon is immediately a great guy and Delilah is immediately a self-serving horror. Sometimes it just seems like making a hero of the dead guy and hating on the woman who’s the center of attention.

[Clanstarling]

21 minutes ago, alexvillage said:

It doesn't offend me but I think that it is time for some used phrases to stop being used. 

As for celebrity, I don't know who you are talking about but I know that Oprah insists that atheists are just people who haven't found god yet, and are just late to the enlightenment. Bout one more thing for me to hate about her (she once told a blind author that he is not really blind - because she does't accept that identity is not about her and that she knows more about another person than the person themself)

Fair point about tired old phrases. Though they hang around for a reason, and I'd guess it's because there are plenty of people who discovered, or rediscovered, faith in terrible situations, so it will always resonate for them.

[Court]

1 hour ago, alexvillage said:

It doesn't offend me but I think that it is time for some used phrases to stop being used. 

As for celebrity, I don't know who you are talking about but I know that Oprah insists that atheists are just people who haven't found god yet, and are just late to the enlightenment. Bout one more thing for me to hate about her (she once told a blind author that he is not really blind - because she does't accept that identity is not about her and that she knows more about another person than the person themself)

That is so stupid of Oprah. I'm not an atheist but I find this really disrespectful. Why can't people just let people be and believe what they believe? I've always hated Oprah. This just affirms that hate.

[Gothish520]

9 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

It didn't really bother me, as it is a very old expression that's been used time and again and was used in contrast to Gary's beliefs. I'm more an atheistically leaning agnostic, myself, but I was much more offended recently by a certain celebrity who said atheists couldn't experience awe.

That's how I would describe myself as well, and Patricia's use of that expression didn't bother me either. A devout relative recently told me she prays for me and several other relatives who are questioners - I shrugged and said "It couldn't hurt!"

I kind of get where the celebrity was coming from, but obviously I don't agree with the statement. 

[debraran]

3 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

I don’t see Jon loving his wife or kids. He had a secret life apart from them, spent more time with his secretary than his family and left  them in a potentially dire situation financially.

I guess time will tell what Nash does with him. I see him working long hours at his own business while his wife is home. I see him leaving them (he thought) with large life ins policies, restaurant and some path to stay afloat. He mentioned in elevator a wish to be with them more if I remember correctly.  In original letter, wanted her not implicated in anything and said he felt there was no other way. Many people who commit suicide for a variety of reasons feel that way . He made a big mistake but there were references to him being a good dad, doing things with the kids like dance, sports, going to plays, I'm sure a fictional photo display of things around the house will show they went on vacations and since he made his own hours, could attend things they were involved in like Katherine does. My dad worked 2 jobs while my mom stayed home in the 60's but I always knew he loved me.  My friends husband is a big lawyer and his long time secretary knows him very well, he said they both keep him afloat (he's70 now) but a lot of us spend more time with coworkers than being home.

His secret life was a big deal and his guilt will eventually come out in this drawn out scenario but anyone who can't live with his past, who was that disturbed but thought of others, isn't a narcissist person, but a disturbed one. The one hole that doesn't make sense is that Nash forgets he has kids, he is more keyed into the drama of the baby and cancer and who is lusting after whom. I'm not making Jon a saint by any means but it takes two to stop communicating and bandaids are always easier than the work to make it better. I think that ruins most marriages and relationships.

Edited February 24, 2019 by debraran

[Gothish520]

13 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

I’m not so hard on Delilah and think people grieve in different ways. I don’t hear her whining, I hear a person who still doesn’t understand her husbands suicide, his secret life and his concern for his secretary and his apartment  over his own kids. When people commit suicide there is a level of anger too that makes it hard to think clearly.

When my friend lost her husband we rallied around her and brought her family meals, drove her kids to school and did all kinds of things to make easier for her. It didn’t mean she was selfish. 

I actually find both Maggie and Gary whine more  than Delilah although I guess Maggie has an excuse.

Maggie and Gary are HUGE whiners, especially Gary! He is always bitching about something!

 

14 hours ago, iwasish said:

Its a violation of Jon’s privacy. Especially since it was a suicide. Carrying boxes to her car or home is one thing. Sorting his stuff in front of a stranger? I think it’s wrong.   But I guess for Delilah as you’ve said it’s about her. 

Was he in the apartment helping her sort? Or was he just helping her with the boxes? When Sophie went in to check on her, he was not in the scene. 

[debraran]

Delilah was home then not at apartment I'm pretty sure. She was going through boxes in her bedroom.  Andrew was going to help her bring them from there to her home.

[iwasish]

10 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Oprah. Believe it or not. I double checked, because I couldn't believe it.

I think she stole it from the great philosopher Khloé Kardashian. 

[iwasish]

9 hours ago, debraran said:

When I was a young adult I had a childhood friend commit suicide and I was devastated and had questions.  I still bring it up on occasion. I still think of him and I know people closer to him were even more effected by it.

When I was younger, a boy my younger brother’s age killed himself. He left a suicide note and among his reasons for doing it was that he felt he had no friends, that no one cared if he lived or died. I remember my brother coming home from the wake and being so upset, telling my parents “ I was his friend, why did he think he had no one? I was always there with him, what did I do wrong, how come he thought I didn’t care ?”  

It took a long time for him to get over that,  he went to counseling later and it seemed to help.  But even understanding that it was something within his friend and not something he failed to do, he’s stilll bothered by it.  

[debraran]

6 hours ago, iwasish said:

When I was younger, a boy my younger brother’s age killed himself. He left a suicide note and among his reasons for doing it was that he felt he had no friends, that no one cared if he lived or died. I remember my brother coming home from the wake and being so upset, telling my parents “ I was his friend, why did he think he had no one? I was always there with him, what did I do wrong, how come he thought I didn’t care ?”  

It took a long time for him to get over that,  he went to counseling later and it seemed to help.  But even understanding that it was something within his friend and not something he failed to do, he’s stilll bothered by it.  

That's so sad. You never know what's in their head. I'm glad your brother talked to someone not close to him about his friend. My friend had a bad breakup but his mom didn't understand if there was something else, why did he feel so alone and feel like his life ended. I felt bad we drifted, going to first jobs, new apartments or neighborhoods, etc. and without social media (a blessing and a curse today) it wasn't as easy to say hi. I think my wanting to help others became a little too much for a while because of him. I've known unfortunately a next door neighbor who's dad killed himself when he was a teen, my first roommates dad did when she was young and a doctor at a hospital I worked found his son dead in his room (seemingly happy) There are thousands of stories out there, but that's what is sad with this show. It's an insult to others who went through it, Rome's story not as bad but the "star" the one the show opened with, his as other posts have said, is just an unaffected type of apathy. Gary has had moments, looking at his hat, remembering his chemo, that's all you need, but the children were never addressed and whether to have Jon's pizza night took a large part of a show. I never for a second thought Maggie was going to die this season or not do chemo so that filler, for me, was boring but I like Gary's character and his humor.

I know it's going to just be a torrid soap opera one day, but I hope he does justice to the original theme of close friends and tragedy before then.  So many good possibilities with some great talent.

Edited February 24, 2019 by debraran

[sigmaforce86]

On 2/22/2019 at 8:40 AM, Lady Calypso said:

That's a good point. Theo likely has recognized how his parents are not getting along and that they're likely to be divorcing, so he must be acting out in his own way. Katherine taking the day off of work must be weird to him, and his dad not going on the trip must also be weird to him. So, remembering this and taking this into account, his little Theo-esque temper tantrum makes more sense. Theo was having a bad day, part of it might have been building up since his parents separated, and he took it out on the person who just happened to be there (Katherine). And she handled it like a pro. 

I agree about Theo, I don't think he was being a brat I think he was being a kid having a bratty moment.  It's normal, kids don't express their feelings in an "adult" way so it comes in an outburst.  They learn how to manage that better in the way we react to it so I thought Katherine's response was very good to.  Plus kids take their cues from the adults, if Theo knows Mom and Dad are up to something but they "play nice" when he's around he may have absorbed that to mean he has to play nice and put on a smile in front of them even if he's actually worried about the situation.  If so that builds up and, again, bratty outburst.  If he was a demanding brat all the time like that was his default personality I'd have a problem watching but.........once in awhile?  That's OK with me, kids aren't perfect, they should act up and get in trouble once in awhile (not that I'm advocating for rude kids, it again it goes back to how the parents react, teaching why it's rude and not letting them get away with it).

On 2/22/2019 at 9:53 AM, Clanstarling said:

There were times when she looked so much like an older version of Maggie that even if I hadn't recognized her, I would have thought it was brilliant casting. 

I swear that first moment when she leaned out the car window I thought it was Maggie and they'd slipped into a flashback.

I feel sorry for Regina, she left the catering job because she was sidelined creatively, not appreciated by her male boss and expected to let male customers basically feel her up, she gets her own place puts everything she has into creating dishes and ends up taking the backseat to a man yet again.  She should have been all over that newspaper to print a retraction or correction even though those rarely do much good.

Funniest part of the episode was Eddie and Rome acting as the cheering section for Gary's attempted apology to Maggie's Mom, their yea!  and oof! reactions were great.

[OpalNightstream]

Just a nit pick but the “I dont have a pen” thing was strange. How is it that no one had a phone on them? Even joggers carry their phones with them most times. Even if just one of them had a phone it would’ve worked (of course her MO was to get into the house so she wouldn’t have said she had her phone). I find it hard to believe a teenage girl wouldn’t have one on her. 

[sigmaforce86]

42 minutes ago, OpalNightstream said:

Just a nit pick but the “I dont have a pen” thing was strange. How is it that no one had a phone on them? Even joggers carry their phones with them most times. Even if just one of them had a phone it would’ve worked (of course her MO was to get into the house so she wouldn’t have said she had her phone). I find it hard to believe a teenage girl wouldn’t have one on her. 

I used to go jogging without my phone all the time, just too lazy to carry extra things - until I took a bad fall on a trail and had to limp half a mile before I could get help (severe ankle sprain, sliced knee with stitches and broken hand from trying to brake my fall).  I'm now banned by my family from ever leaving the house without a phone, they even gifted me with several ugly but practical fanny packs to carry the the phone & a few other just in case essentials.  I suppose I might have been in the minority on that but the no phone thing was pretty common for me until last year.

That said it was weird that Sophie didn't have a phone either or a note feature on her music player or even a voice or video recorder on it so she couldn't just say hey give me your number and I'll pass it to my Mom.  Definite semi-clunky plot device there.

[debraran]

38 minutes ago, sigmaforce86 said:

I used to go jogging without my phone all the time, just too lazy to carry extra things - until I took a bad fall on a trail and had to limp half a mile before I could get help (severe ankle sprain, sliced knee with stitches and broken hand from trying to brake my fall).  I'm now banned by my family from ever leaving the house without a phone, they even gifted me with several ugly but practical fanny packs to carry the the phone & a few other just in case essentials.  I suppose I might have been in the minority on that but the no phone thing was pretty common for me until last year.

That said it was weird that Sophie didn't have a phone either or a note feature on her music player or even a voice or video recorder on it so she couldn't just say hey give me your number and I'll pass it to my Mom.  Definite semi-clunky plot device there.

They have some nice fanny packs now, slim and stretchy. My husband is a cop and always pushed that with kids, I was always too paranoid to go without it. I also took a spill once and another time a dog came out of nowhere and I had to jump up on car parked in the road. Someone came but a phone would have helped if alone.

I agree, very unbelievable and if she had any clout the actress was probably like "I would never do this"  ; )

[Guest]

2 hours ago, OpalNightstream said:

Just a nit pick but the “I dont have a pen” thing was strange. How is it that no one had a phone on them? Even joggers carry their phones with them most times. Even if just one of them had a phone it would’ve worked (of course her MO was to get into the house so she wouldn’t have said she had her phone). I find it hard to believe a teenage girl wouldn’t have one on her. 

They both clearly had their phones. You could see MaybeBarbara’s phone in her pocket and Sophie was using her phone just before she started her run. The whole thing was a stupid plot contrivance.

Once again the show wanted to make it seem that something was going to be revealed. I’m getting really tired of the poorly written manufactured drama of the Barbara Morgan plot. It is ridiculous that this mystery has been drawn out until the last episode. 

[HazelEyes4325]

As I was finally watching this episode (tonight...Sunday night) I realized...I'm not entirely sure why I'm still watching this.  Okay, I know why--David Giuntoli and I made that stupid 1.5 seasons +1 episode commitment before ever seeing the first episode (believe it or not, I sometimes run my mouth...).  When this show first started, I would get up early on (then) Thursday morning to watch it on Hulu.  Now I sort of have to force myself to watch it.

The truth is there is only one character in this show that I find compelling and that is Katherine.  I want all the good things for her, but I also know that she will just get repeatedly shit upon, and that makes me mad.  I don't actually care that much about Maggie and Gary, I want to care a hell of a lot more about Rome and Regina than the show has given me a reason to, I cannot care less about the Barbara Morgan mystery, and we all know what I feel about Delilah.

But, as for this episode, I...thought it would be better.  I mean, there were things about it that were good.  The Katherine and Eddie story was very well-performed, if not always well-written.  Oh, and hey--look at that!  Who is that who is supportive of Eddie?  KATHERINE!  For all Eddie's whining about no one believing in him, we sure see Katherine being pretty damn supportive (and, weirdly, Gary...) We got a little more of an insight into Gary, which probably should have come out earlier but I guess better late than never.  

I will sing the praises on one point: the casting of Melora Hardin was genius.  Not only does she look like an older Allison Miller, but she (as Maggie's mom) has the same mannerisms as Maggie.  At times, it was almost spooky watching her and how similar she was to Maggie.

My biggest problem with this episode is that the writing was so damn heavy-handed.  Look!  GARY'S HAT IS JUST LIKE MAGGIE'S MOTHER'S ROSARY!  Look! WHEN KATHERINE SAID THAT SHE STILL LOVED THEO WHEN THEY DIDN'T GET ALONG SHE WAS ALSO TALKING ABOUT EDDIE!  Geez!  I *get* it!  Loud and clear!  No need for the bullhorn!

As for Theo, I was actually happy to see him show his bratty side.  My son is Theo's age and that was much more along the lines of "normal" behavior for kids his age, although the scene, once they got home, was badly written, the actor playing Theo (and Grace Park) did the best they could with it.  I do hope that the nosebleed is nothing more than a nosebleed, though.  A few months ago, my daughter started having nosebleeds and, as I have seen TV before and nosebleeds in kids, of course, equal cancer or something just as dire, I freaked out and got her to the doctor.  Our doctor was great about talking me down--yes, sometimes nosebleeds can be symptomatic of something else--but usually, they are just nosebleeds.  And, yes, she checked my daughter out and she is just fine.  And, yes, I did get the mini-lecture that TV has a bad habit of making tiny little things into mountains.

But, damn, David Giuntoli and Grace Park work well together!  I'm pretty sure at this point that Eddie and Katherine is endgame--which I'm okay with, as long as it actually is endgame.  By that, I mean that they do the things they need to do to heal on their own and then remake their relationship on firmer ground (and, you know, have Eddie tell the freakin' truth--as he knows it--about the baby).  I would actually like to see them go through with the divorce, have Eddie really understand why he cheated on her and then to actually stand up to Delilah about it (I would also really like to see Regina finally stand up to Delilah and not back down from it), and have Katherine realize that while she is not perfect, she is also not responsible for Eddie's actions.

Other random brain droppings as I was watching:

• As much as Gary's temper tantrum made me roll my eyes, if I saw that scene right, Maggie's mom did actually breach parking lot etiquette in parking there.  Weren't the parking spots slanted in a way that she was going to the wrong way to park there?
• Dear Theo--taking the recycling out is a *chore,* not a consequence.
• I'm really bothered by Maggie's eyebrows.  I mean, they aren't bad eyebrows...but they are still there.  Shouldn't she have lost them in chemo?  And, yes, I remember that Gary didn't lose his beard in chemo, but that was so absurd that I was okay with it (and he lost his eyebrows).  Does that make any sense?
• I cringed seeing Regina's angry chopping.  No self-respecting chef (or even home cook) who still has 10 fingers would cut carrots like that.
• So, Maggie is moving in with Gary..which is all fine and good, but isn't Eddie still sleeping on Gary's couch? Isn't it going to be a little crowded in that apartment?

Edited February 25, 2019 by HazelEyes4325

[debraran]

4 hours ago, HazelEyes4325 said:

Other random brain droppings as I was watching:

• As much as Gary's temper tantrum made me roll my eyes, if I saw that scene right, Maggie's mom did actually breach parking lot etiquette in parking there.  Weren't the parking spots slanted in a way that she was going to the wrong way to park there?
• Dear Theo--taking the recycling out is a *chore,* not a consequence.
• I'm really bothered by Maggie's eyebrows.  I mean, they aren't bad eyebrows...but they are still there.  Shouldn't she have lost them in chemo?  And, yes, I remember that Gary didn't lose his beard in chemo, but that was so absurd that I was okay with it (and he lost his eyebrows).  Does that make any sense?
• I cringed seeing Regina's angry chopping.  No self-respecting chef (or even home cook) who still has 10 fingers would cut carrots like that.
• So, Maggie is moving in with Gary..which is all fine and good, but isn't Eddie still sleeping on Gary's couch? Isn't it going to be a little crowded in that apartment?

I agree on a lot of your points. Yes Maggie's mom was wrong and I think the "psych" reference was part of that, they felt a perfect scene for it.

I also thought "chore" vs consequence, re Theo. I would have liked that over any lack of TV or today tablet time. lol

I think most people realize MLT doesn't do cancer treatment well. It's very rare to not lose your beard or at least have it thin out and eyebrows usually go. They need to have the characters look good most of the time and Gary's beard I think would have to shaved and then have him grow it back (not as easy like a head cap) Some cancer treatments are different with side effects but breast cancer drugs usually have patients lose their hair.

I agree, re Maggie moving in too soon, but Gary wants to take care of her. It will be crowded and maybe force Eddie to move out. It will also make it easier to eavesdrop on conversations. I feel the show has gone from Maggie who was trained in counseling, going from "I don't want to live, I hate chemo" to having her cancer progress, fainting, bruises (?) and then Gary making her care. Somehow if this weren't on TV, there are so many problems here. Gary is a lot of fans "knight in shining armor" but Maggie should be able to love herself enough to want to live, to not want to hurt her mother and father more, but it is a soap. (I'm getting that cemented now that Nash and Alision Miller called it that)

Edited February 25, 2019 by debraran

[luvly]

5 hours ago, HazelEyes4325 said:

As much as Gary's temper tantrum made me roll my eyes, if I saw that scene right, Maggie's mom did actually breach parking lot etiquette in parking there.  Weren't the parking spots slanted in a way that she was going to the wrong way to park there?

I'm glad someone else mentioned it because it annoyed me throughout the whole episode. Not only was Maggie's mom driving the wrong way down a one-way aisle, she drove right over the giant white arrow while making that wide turn to fit into the slanted spot and didn't use her blinker. I hated that she was portrayed as having the upper hand because she was the mom that the boyfriend should want to impress when, in reality, she pulled a dangerous and selfish move that could have caused an accident, taunted him about it and then didn't even have the humility to try to bury the hatchet once she realized who he was to Maggie and that he was probably just as scared and agitated as she was.

Edited February 25, 2019 by luvly

[Clanstarling]

9 hours ago, HazelEyes4325 said:

• As much as Gary's temper tantrum made me roll my eyes, if I saw that scene right, Maggie's mom did actually breach parking lot etiquette in parking there.  Weren't the parking spots slanted in a way that she was going to the wrong way to park there?
• Dear Theo--taking the recycling out is a *chore,* not a consequence.
• I'm really bothered by Maggie's eyebrows.  I mean, they aren't bad eyebrows...but they are still there.  Shouldn't she have lost them in chemo?  And, yes, I remember that Gary didn't lose his beard in chemo, but that was so absurd that I was okay with it (and he lost his eyebrows).  Does that make any sense?
• I cringed seeing Regina's angry chopping.  No self-respecting chef (or even home cook) who still has 10 fingers would cut carrots like that.
• So, Maggie is moving in with Gary..which is all fine and good, but isn't Eddie still sleeping on Gary's couch? Isn't it going to be a little crowded in that apartment?

Yes, Maggie's mom was indeed breaching etiquette and the lot's traffic flow.

If Theo thinks recycling is a consequence rather than a chore, that's on Katherine and Eddie.

I cringed during the angry chopping. Plus, the carrots were uneven, which is almost as  bad for a chef.

If Maggie moves in with Gary that leaves her apartment open for Eddie. He could even sublet if she doesn't want to go all in.

[HazelEyes4325]

4 hours ago, debraran said:

I agree, re Maggie moving in too soon, but Gary wants to take care of her. It will be crowded and maybe force Eddie to move out. It will also make it easier to eavesdrop on conversations. I feel the show has gone from Maggie who was trained in counseling, going from "I don't want to live, I hate chemo" to having her cancer progress, fainting, bruises (?) and then Gary making her care. Somehow if this weren't on TV, there are so many problems here. Gary is a lot of fans "knight in shining armor" but Maggie should be able to love herself enough to want to live, to not want to hurt her mother and father more, but it is a soap. (I'm getting that cemented now that Nash and Alision Miller called it that)

 

I actually didn't have a problem (past tense) with Maggie and Gary moving in together, beyond the fact that Eddie was still sleeping on the couch.  If Eddie did sell his song and it was recorded by that other guy AND it is getting airplay to the point that it is playing at the Aquarium, he has enough money to pay rent on a decent, if not swanky, one or two-bedroom apartment somewhere.  He needs to grow the fuck up (especially if he wants Katherine back...) and he's not going to do that on Gary's couch.

Then I read your post and now I don't want Maggie and Gary to move in together.  You reminded me that there is actually a lot wrong with that relationship.  I'm not saying that they shouldn't be together (I honestly don't care enough about that story to have an opinion either way), but where they are now is actually not a strong foundation for a healthy relationship.  

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, HazelEyes4325 said:

Then I read your post and now I don't want Maggie and Gary to move in together.  You reminded me that there is actually a lot wrong with that relationship.  I'm not saying that they shouldn't be together (I honestly don't care enough about that story to have an opinion either way), but where they are now is actually not a strong foundation for a healthy relationship.  

Ah well, if they all have healthy relationships it wouldn't be a dramatic tv show. 😉 (Though it was managed once, with Friday Night Lights - but as I recall only Coach and Tammy had a healthy relationship, so there were other sources of drama)

[CountryGirl]

On 2/21/2019 at 9:05 PM, saoirse said:

Melora Hardin? WOOOT! Great casting there.

I was like "Hey! It's LHOTP's Belinda, the girl Nancy locked in the ice house so she could get the lead in the school pageant."

The stuff I remember all these years later.

 

On 2/21/2019 at 9:09 PM, Lady Calypso said:

Aww man, AMLT. Making me love Katherine/Eddie sixteen episodes and a secret baby too late. I am glad they still signed the divorce papers, but man if I'm not partially rooting for them (and fully rooting for Eddie to tell her the damn truth!)

I am rooting for them, too (SMH at myself), mainly for Katherine who is obviously still in love with him and I think about how he was trying to charge through the barricade to get to her in her accident in the previous week's episode, calling her "my wife."

Of course, about the time they reconnect, she'll find out Delilah's baby is actually Eddie's.

[nkotb]

26 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

I was like "Hey! It's LHOTP's Belinda, the girl Nancy locked in the ice house so she could get the lead in the school pageant."

The stuff I remember all these years later.

Shut the front door! I had no idea, but I so appreciate you pointing that out. I actually hadn't recognized her from anything, but I'm off to IMDB her right now! Nancy...what a girl would do to be a mermaid (I know she didn't know it was actually a dunk-tank, but that Half-Pint sure showed her that you don't mess with Grove girls).

[Gothish520]

49 minutes ago, nkotb said:

Shut the front door! I had no idea, but I so appreciate you pointing that out. I actually hadn't recognized her from anything, but I'm off to IMDB her right now! Nancy...what a girl would do to be a mermaid (I know she didn't know it was actually a dunk-tank, but that Half-Pint sure showed her that you don't mess with Grove girls).

Melora Hardin is arguably the best thing about a show on FreeForm called The Bold Type, set in the offices of a Cosmopolitan-like magazine. 

Edited February 25, 2019 by Gothish520

[nkotb]

I had no idea! I definitely IMDBed her & will look some of her stuff up. Thanks for the tip!

On-topic: that Eddie/Katherine near-kiss was what actual chemistry looks like. I've never seen that with Eddie & Delilah (or Delilah & anyone). It's also pretty realistic; when my cousin was recently getting divorced, she & her loser husband were thinking of reconciling, & her lawyer told her that since they'd already started divorce proceedings, it was better for everyone to complete the divorce, & then get back together if they wanted. Kind of like 'don't look back now.' I don't know how realistic that is, or how far they were along as opposed to Eddie & Katherine, but he was right, & they did get the divorce, & she has a much better guy now, if you were wondering. 

[Cowgirl]

On 2/24/2019 at 9:01 AM, sigmaforce86 said:

Funniest part of the episode was Eddie and Rome acting as the cheering section for Gary's attempted apology to Maggie's Mom, their yea!  and oof! reactions were great.

I agree.  They were like a Greek chorus standing behind the action.

5 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

I was like "Hey! It's LHOTP's Belinda, the girl Nancy locked in the ice house so she could get the lead in the school pageant."

The stuff I remember all these years later.

THANK you!  I IMDB'd her but didn't go back far enough! She's a great actress and I enjoyed her as Maggie's mom.  Agree with the posters here who noted how much she looks like the actress who plays Maggie.  

[bybrandy]

23 hours ago, debraran said:

think most people realize MLT doesn't do cancer treatment well. It's very rare to not lose your beard or at least have it thin out and eyebrows usually go.

This is variable.   I think you are less likely to lose eybrow and eyelash hair than head hair.  Some do, some don't, and obviously whether you lose anything at all or not depends on the type of chemo and your response to it.  But seriously, my mom lost her hair during chemo and I'm scrolling through my phone because I truly don't think she lost her eyebrows but um... I'm not sure.  Like I'm literally scrolling through my phone looking for pics.    

Confirmed eyebrows intact throughout treatment. 

That said I totally think they people lose their eyebrows on tv because it isn't nearly as convenient as a bald cap/wig to conceal real eyebrows (although it can be done see A Star is Born).

 

[debraran]

1 minute ago, bybrandy said:

This is variable.   I think you are less likely to lose eybrow and eyelash hair than head hair.  Some do, some don't, and obviously whether you lose anything at all or not depends on the type of chemo and your response to it.  But seriously, my mom lost her hair during chemo and I'm scrolling through my phone because I truly don't think she lost her eyebrows but um... I'm not sure.  Like I'm literally scrolling through my phone looking for pics.    

Confirmed eyebrows intact throughout treatment. 

That said I totally think they people lose their eyebrows on tv because it isn't nearly as convenient as a bald cap/wig to conceal real eyebrows (although it can be done see A Star is Born).

 

It does depend and sometimes uneven, one side is better than the other. I think they usually lighten eyebrows if possible but Maggie is already blonde. She said to do cap took a while but yoga exercises helped her be patient.

[smartymarty]

Haven't seen it commented on, so thinking I'm way off. But is breast cancer surgery really that scary? They seemed to be worried that she wouldn't survive the surgery. But it's not like open heart surgery or anything. If I had a loved one in this surgery, I'd of course be at the hospital, but just reading a book (like Rome), not stressing and praying and everything. Linda's aneurysm didn't happen on the surgeon's table.

[doodlebug]

Quote

 I do hope that the nosebleed is nothing more than a nosebleed, though.  A few months ago, my daughter started having nosebleeds and, as I have seen TV before and nosebleeds in kids, of course, equal cancer or something just as dire, I freaked out and got her to the doctor.  Our doctor was great about talking me down--yes, sometimes nosebleeds can be symptomatic of something else--but usually, they are just nosebleeds.  And, yes, she checked my daughter out and she is just fine.  And, yes, I did get the mini-lecture that TV has a bad habit of making tiny little things into mountains.

Probably just my medical brain, but I thought the same thing.  I was thinking, 'OK, the kid gets leukemia and his parents don't match for the bone marrow transplant he needs.  Too bad he doesn't have any brothers or sisters, they're usually the best matches.  And then ....voila! The secret is out just in time to gather the cord blood from a certain newborn. '

 

9 hours ago, smartymarty said:

Haven't seen it commented on, so thinking I'm way off. But is breast cancer surgery really that scary? They seemed to be worried that she wouldn't survive the surgery. But it's not like open heart surgery or anything. If I had a loved one in this surgery, I'd of course be at the hospital, but just reading a book (like Rome), not stressing and praying and everything. Linda's aneurysm didn't happen on the surgeon's table.

No, it's really pretty routine, there can be a risk of bleeding, but it's not very common.  They've never been really clear where Maggie's recurrence is.  Presumably, she had a mastectomy with her initial cancer since it seems she needed chemotherapy, too.  Most of the time that indicates a tumor that would be too big for a lumpectomy and radiation.  So, if she had a recurrence, it would either have been in the other breast or along the scar from the initial surgery.  Another mastectomy, while not fun, is something she has already experienced and there's no reason for everyone to be so morbid about the operation.

This show is not very accurate medically however, so there's that.

[Lady Calypso]

11 minutes ago, smartymarty said:

Haven't seen it commented on, so thinking I'm way off. But is breast cancer surgery really that scary? They seemed to be worried that she wouldn't survive the surgery. But it's not like open heart surgery or anything. If I had a loved one in this surgery, I'd of course be at the hospital, but just reading a book (like Rome), not stressing and praying and everything. Linda's aneurysm didn't happen on the surgeon's table.

I think any surgery is scary, even if it's just routine. In this case, there was the worry about the doctors finding more cancer (as Maggie's mom mentioned in this episode, it had happened before). And, for Gary, he can relate to this more than anyone else, so it's scary for him on more than a "I can lose my new girlfriend" level. 

Also...TV shows are always overdramatic. I guess because, if they're not overdramatic, then they're too boring? 

11 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

Probably just my medical brain, but I thought the same thing.  I was thinking, 'OK, the kid gets leukemia and his parents don't match for the bone marrow transplant he needs.  Too bad he doesn't have any brothers or sisters, they're usually the best matches.  And then ....voila! The secret is out just in time to gather the cord blood from a certain newborn. '

If they go this route, I honestly might be done. I mean, I had nosebleeds all the time as a kid, right around Theo's age. I also had some form of night terrors (not as bad as him, but enough where I'd wake up screaming). And nothing was actually wrong with me; both symptoms eventually went away by the time I was 12. 

I am not here for Theo being the third character to have cancer AND for Katherine to eventually have to THANK Delilah for her kid with her ex husband saving her son. Fuck that shit.

[HazelEyes4325]

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

I think any surgery is scary, even if it's just routine. In this case, there was the worry about the doctors finding more cancer (as Maggie's mom mentioned in this episode, it had happened before). And, for Gary, he can relate to this more than anyone else, so it's scary for him on more than a "I can lose my new girlfriend" level. 

Also...TV shows are always overdramatic. I guess because, if they're not overdramatic, then they're too boring? 

If they go this route, I honestly might be done. I mean, I had nosebleeds all the time as a kid, right around Theo's age. I also had some form of night terrors (not as bad as him, but enough where I'd wake up screaming). And nothing was actually wrong with me; both symptoms eventually went away by the time I was 12. 

I am not here for Theo being the third character to have cancer AND for Katherine to eventually have to THANK Delilah for her kid with her ex husband saving her son. Fuck that shit.

I actually didn't have a problem with Gary being overdramatic about the surgery.  That guy is *always* over-dramatic, it just is who he is.  I had a harder time understanding why Eddie and Rome were there, then I remembered that none of these people can do a damn thing on their own without their friends there to hold their hands.

Yeah, if Theo's nosebleeds equal something more and if we have to watch the world down on their knees thanking Delilah, I am (probably) out too.  For one thing, I've already fallen for the "your child will die from a nosebleed!" myth in real life and that TV needs to stop with shit like that.  Secondly, there is only so much cancer a show can take, and this show is already over that line.  Third, I just want Delilah out of Katherine's (and Theo's...and Eddie's) life.  I'm still pissed that the show seems to be trying to gaslight the audience with her and the last thing I need is for her to be front and center AGAIN.

[Dusty]

6 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I am not here for Theo being the third character to have cancer AND for Katherine to eventually have to THANK Delilah for her kid with her ex husband saving her son. Fuck that shit.

Oh goodness I didn't even think of that and I'm usually the person when a character starts coughing I'm like "Welp, they're dying." They really better not go down that road.

[jhlipton]

On 2/23/2019 at 3:52 PM, Gothish520 said:

A devout relative recently told me she prays for me and several other relatives who are questioners - I shrugged and said "It couldn't hurt!"

My in-laws pray for me a lot, and I thank them, because it shows they want the best for me.  

[Perkie]

First off, fantastic casting of Melora Hardin as Maggie's mother.  They look A LOT alike, to the point where I wouldn't be surprised to find out that they're related in real life.  What bothered me though is that my first thought was no way is Melora old enough to have a daughter Maggie's age.  So I looked it up and MH is 51 and AM is 33, so it is physically possible.  

Could not beleive how easy it was for Barbara Morgan to get into their house.  Stupid move on Sophie's part.  

[MoreCoffeePlease]

Quote

First off, fantastic casting of Melora Hardin as Maggie's mother.  They look A LOT alike

I think they also sound alike.

I know most people hate Delilah ... I just sort of ignore her. Regina is the one who really bugged me this episode. I get why she is upset, but her pouting drives me nuts.

[HazelEyes4325]

1 hour ago, MoreCoffeePlease said:

I think they also sound alike.

I know most people hate Delilah ... I just sort of ignore her. Regina is the one who really bugged me this episode. I get why she is upset, but her pouting drives me nuts.

I like Regina...but...I found her frustrating here.  I get why she's upset, but I have no interest in watching her pout when she had several opportunities to actually stand up for herself.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, HazelEyes4325 said:

I like Regina...but...I found her frustrating here.  I get why she's upset, but I have no interest in watching her pout when she had several opportunities to actually stand up for herself.

It’s such a waste. She had a single episode to handle a traumatic event and now they’re back to giving her crap storylines. 

It is ridiculous to pretend there would be no emotional fallout from her reveal. These last few episodes should show her trying to process what happened to her. 

[debraran]

3 hours ago, Dani said:

It’s such a waste. She had a single episode to handle a traumatic event and now they’re back to giving her crap storylines. 

It is ridiculous to pretend there would be no emotional fallout from her reveal. These last few episodes should show her trying to process what happened to her. 

I agree, I feel Rome and Regina are fillers and I'm not going into why, it's just a glutted field in some ways. Maggie, the outsider, gets a lot more time. I know she has cancer but that's not usually as dramatic as in the way they did it, the "I'm not doing chemo, if I win this basketball game you have too, type of silliness. I had hoped for more about the tighter group this season. The more you learn about them, the more dimensions they have.

I also want to know about the older woman who lived across from Jon and had his key and no one thought that was odd  ; )

[Clanstarling]

12 hours ago, debraran said:

I also want to know about the older woman who lived across from Jon and had his key and no one thought that was odd  ; )

Me too. She'd have been the first person I talked to about Jon's secret life.

[jhlipton]

On 2/27/2019 at 5:30 AM, Perkie said:

Could not beleive how easy it was for Barbara Morgan to get into their house.  Stupid move on Sophie's part.  

No, it was a stupid move on the part of the writers.  That was pure PLOTTTT!!!!

17 hours ago, debraran said:

I agree, I feel Rome and Regina are fillers and I'm not going into why, it's just a glutted field in some ways.; )

I'll go into why.  I'm sure TPTB tell themselves that they are not don't do racist things -- they can't be racists!!!