Leaving Neverland

[car54]

The most chilling line in this so far was Michael telling one of the mothers "I always get what I want".

I was originally feeling sick or sad for ALL of them--including Michael--who had such a messed up childhood himself that turned him into such a messed up man.

But that line, plus all the steps he took with them--the drilling on how to get dressed quickly, bells on the doors to warn him if anyone got close to his bedroom when he was with one of his boys, all the different private, separate places he could be alone with them.     

He knew it was wrong and he did everything he could to get what he wanted and not get caught.

[Lady Iris]

12 hours ago, saoirse said:

Never have I been happier that I was never a Michael Jackson fan. All those years of people being shocked when I said, "yeah, nope, don't like him," and I'm feeling vindicated.

But I really wish I weren't.

I don't blame you at all. I was on the opposite end of the spectrum, He was my idol and pure magic. I fell so hard when I saw him perform on that Motown program back in the 80's. His poster was on my wall, picture in my locker, album on my record player, and glued to MTV every time he was on.

Seeing that Pepsi commercial last night with that glowing smile of his to who I now know was his victim makes my stomach turn. I vividly remember that commercial and how handsome MJ looked. I can't believe that sweet boy was his victim.

I never wanted to believe that these things were true. I believed in him and his indignation when he released that video of his rebuttal to the accusations. But now, when he says that he'd never hurt a child? I can see that to him, he was loving them in his own way which is why he was able to lie so passionately and convincingly. I'm ill that I wanted to believe him so badly.

When he died I was devastated. This man who was bigger than life and gave me so much pleasure through his music and dancing was gone. I cried. Now, I hear his music and I can't enjoy it, how can I? Its impossible. And now? After watching only the first part of this documentary? I have quite the heavy heart that I wasted my adoration on such a pure monstrosity.

[maggiegil]

The issue of the non disparagement clause that MJ apparently had with HBO makes me wonder who else he had these clauses with. Given the interconectivity of media outlets, it mightn't take much to gag a huge swathe of them.

I hope part 2 covers the testimony the men gave at the trials because that to a lot of people calls their credibility into question and I think its important to show the power that MJ had over them at that time. Maybe it will happen in part 2 but I hope that they have someone speak about how abuse victims can be brainwashed and delayed PTSD etc.

Even if fans don't believe Robson or Safechuck's allegations, theres no way that anyone can say he had a normal relationship with young boys.

What I can't square is the people who claim he was a genius but also talk about the innocence and child like purity of his relationships with these young children. You have to be a pedophile or dumb as a box of rocks to publicly carry on those relationships so brazenly, look at what he admitted to Bashir in 2003.

[qtpye]

45 minutes ago, msrachelj said:

what the fuck is wrong with both those mothers? especially the one without the artificial clown colored hair? smiling and outright laughing while telling the stories? yours sons were raped! how can you talk about all this and react that way? no tears, no frowns, no anger. just what.. the... fuck! i could barely concentrate on anything else in doc. because i couldn't stop thinking what unfit parents these were. sorry. i'm judgmental too. there is no excuse for leaving your 7 or 10 year old sons with a man who is a stranger. to SLEEP IN HIS BED. and then you go off on adventures for the day or week. celebrity or not. and the australian one who up and left her family? michael was a monster. the parents were blinded by $$$ and the poor boys suffered. 

The clown colored hair one also testified against another mother whose kid brought up charges against Michael and accused her of "trying to become the mistress of Neverland". I think she thought Michael was the ticket to get her out of the mundane lower middle-class rut she was in and live the luxurious life of a star. I do not think she actively prostituted her son, but I do think she turned a willful blind eye to many things and failed her child. Jackson had a lot of these types of moms jockeying for power and position in Neverland and that is one of the reasons I compared him to Henry the VIII

15 minutes ago, Lady Iris said:

I don't blame you at all. I was on the opposite end of the spectrum, He was my idol and pure magic. I fell so hard when I saw him perform on that Motown program back in the 80's. His poster was on my wall, picture in my locker, album on my record player, and glued to MTV every time he was on.

Seeing that Pepsi commercial last night with that glowing smile of his to who I now know was his victim makes my stomach turn. I vividly remember that commercial and how handsome MJ looked. I can't believe that sweet boy was his victim.

I never wanted to believe that these things were true. I believed in him and his indignation when he released that video of his rebuttal to the accusations. But now, when he says that he'd never hurt a child? I can see that to him, he was loving them in his own way which is why he was able to lie so passionately and convincingly. I'm ill that I wanted to believe him so badly.

When he died I was devastated. This man who was bigger than life and gave me so much pleasure through his music and dancing was gone. I cried. Now, I hear his music and I can't enjoy it, how can I? Its impossible. And now? After watching only the first part of this documentary? I have quite the heavy heart that I wasted my adoration on such a pure monstrosity.

I was angry that he would never be brought to justice since he is deceased. I then remembered how his name was mud for several years after the last trial.

This Eminem video is tasteless but it illustrates what a joke he had become.

Yes, he is lampooning a lot of artists but Michael is obviously his main target.

I think something happened after he died that most of society just wanted to remember the good things about him. I think most people rationed he was acquitted so they just wrote him off as strange but probably not a child molester. I wish he could have gone to jail for his crimes like Cosby or the Penn State coach.

[Lady Iris]

Had he lived and these victims came forth with a change in their stories, would it have been enough to press charges again?

[funky-rat]

23 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I think something happened after he died that most of society just wanted to remember the good things about him. I think most people rationed he was acquitted so they just wrote him off as strange but probably not a child molester. I wish he could have gone to jail for his crimes like Cosby or the Penn State coach.

That tends to happen - not just with celebrities.  My late evil mother in law was elevated to saint status by some when she died.  It's like they forget, or they don't want to disparage the deceased, but sometimes it's warranted.

Jerry Sandusky was the Penn State molester (I live less than an hour away from State College).  He got his kids through a charity he ran for at-risk youth.  The Happy Valley Kool Aid Drinkers are just as bad as some of MJ's rabid fans.  Sandusky retired as a coach around 1999, but was allowed to keep an office at the college due to his charity work, even after the first accusations were made against him (well before the scandal broke), because so many spoke glowingly of him - even Presidents.  When he was caught in the act, the person who caught him (an assistant - a fairly young guy) asked his father who he should go to, and then went directly to Paterno, who shirked any responsibility and reported it to the AD, rather than taking it to the police himself, as he should have done.  So as such, people still think Joe Paterno is some saint who is above reproach, and tend to vilify everyone else.  Some have vilified the parents for letting their kids go to stuff this charity sponsored, and some have vilified the victims for not coming forward sooner (some did, but were not believed).  Some have called for the young assistant who blew the whistle to be prosecuted for murder, because his actions caused Joe Paterno to die "of a broken heart" (Cancer, actually).  And yes, they're serious.  Truly sad.

Even sadder is that Sandusky's wife sticks with him, winking at him in court - it was disgusting.  All of their kids were adopted.  Most stand by him, but one of his adopted sons says he was molested.  Another one was arrested for possession of child porn, and some other nasty things involving underage girls.  They say their adopted son who claims he was molested is lying and trying to make a name for himself.  Makes me want to vomit.

Edited March 4, 2019 by funky-rat
Continuity

[Blakeston]

1 hour ago, car54 said:

The most chilling line in this so far was Michael telling one of the mothers "I always get what I want".

I was originally feeling sick or sad for ALL of them--including Michael--who had such a messed up childhood himself that turned him into such a messed up man.

But that line, plus all the steps he took with them--the drilling on how to get dressed quickly, bells on the doors to warn him if anyone got close to his bedroom when he was with one of his boys, all the different private, separate places he could be alone with them.     

He knew it was wrong and he did everything he could to get what he wanted and not get caught.

I think the drills and the bells show that Michael knew that his molestation of boys was considered wrong by society, and that he could get into a lot of trouble if he was caught.

But it sounds like he convinced himself that the problem was with society, and not with him. He believed that anyone who couldn't appreciate his special gift of love for children (excuse me while I vomit) was just "ignorant."

Which is exactly how a lot of pedophiles talk and think. They truly believe that the problem is with everyone else.

[funky-rat]

13 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

I think the drills and the bells show that Michael knew that his molestation of boys was considered wrong by society, and that he could get into a lot of trouble if he was caught.

But it sounds like he convinced himself that the problem was with society, and not with him. He believed that anyone who couldn't appreciate his special gift of love for children (excuse me while I vomit) was just "ignorant."

Which is exactly how a lot of pedophiles talk and think. They truly believe that the problem is with everyone else.

Watch the South Park episode with "Mr. Jefferson" if you haven't seen it already.  It's scary how they hit the nail on the head with it, and how most kids' families saw something wrong with his creepy obsession, but he was able to snow Cartman, who comes from a questionable home.

[ruby24]

That is definitely the way child molesters think and I noticed that too, every time he would defend himself he would say "I would never HARM a child." In his mind he's not harming them.

This is how R. Kelly and Jerry Sandusky were tripped up too. I remember Bob Costas asked Sandusky in a TV interview (by phone) if he was "attracted" to boys, and Sandusky completely hesitated, stumbling all over his words, NOT denying it, saying he liked "young people," etc. And in the R. Kelly documentary there was an old interview with him where the interviewer asked him if he "liked" young girls and all he did was ask "how young do you mean," and try to qualify it. No outright denial when it's phrased like that, even though every normal person would immediately say no if asked questions like that.

I wonder if someone had used those words with MJ if his reaction would have been the same. Because he switches it to "harm," as if that's a different thing they're asking about. So this, imo, is how you know what's going on in their heads. It's very telling.

Edited March 5, 2019 by ruby24

[Scarlett45]

3 hours ago, car54 said:

The most chilling line in this so far was Michael telling one of the mothers "I always get what I want".

I was originally feeling sick or sad for ALL of them--including Michael--who had such a messed up childhood himself that turned him into such a messed up man.

But that line, plus all the steps he took with them--the drilling on how to get dressed quickly, bells on the doors to warn him if anyone got close to his bedroom when he was with one of his boys, all the different private, separate places he could be alone with them.     

He knew it was wrong and he did everything he could to get what he wanted and not get caught.

I know. Michael was not so mentally ill he didn’t know what he was doing or had temporary insanity. He was a predator who used his wealth and fame to hurt kids PERIOD. 

3 hours ago, Lady Iris said:

I don't blame you at all. I was on the opposite end of the spectrum, He was my idol and pure magic. I fell so hard when I saw him perform on that Motown program back in the 80's. His poster was on my wall, picture in my locker, album on my record player, and glued to MTV every time he was on.

Seeing that Pepsi commercial last night with that glowing smile of his to who I now know was his victim makes my stomach turn. I vividly remember that commercial and how handsome MJ looked. I can't believe that sweet boy was his victim.

I never wanted to believe that these things were true. I believed in him and his indignation when he released that video of his rebuttal to the accusations. But now, when he says that he'd never hurt a child? I can see that to him, he was loving them in his own way which is why he was able to lie so passionately and convincingly. I'm ill that I wanted to believe him so badly.

When he died I was devastated. This man who was bigger than life and gave me so much pleasure through his music and dancing was gone. I cried. Now, I hear his music and I can't enjoy it, how can I? Its impossible. And now? After watching only the first part of this documentary? I have quite the heavy heart that I wasted my adoration on such a pure monstrosity.

I know- I am 33, so growing up I heard things but I didn’t want to believe it either.  I am also the type that believes just because someone is “weird” or “socially different” doesn’t mean they are a sick person that would hurt kids. However where there’s smoke there is fire and there’s no way ALL those kids were lying. I am going to start the documentary tonight and I have a hard time listening to his music now too. It’s already been bought and paid for (I’m not upset that Paris, Prince and Blanket will benefit) but I’m not comfortable at all. (Not attacking anyone that still enjoys it)

[Scarlett45]

16 hours ago, Giant Misfit said:

I don't know if anyone else watched Abducted in Plain Sight on Netflix, so I'm going to put this comment in tags:

  Reveal spoiler

Michael's behavior reminded me exactly of B's behavior with Jan and, more specifically, her parents as he groomed all of them. Michael groomed both Wade and Jimmy's mothers, got them under his thrall and truly had them believing he was just some benign man-child. The same shit happened with B and Jan's parents—he knew exactly how he could manipulate them so he could continue raping Jan. 

Sickening. That's really just the word that went through my mind through those two painful hours of TV. Sickening. Michael Jackson was an evil human being. He ruined Wade's family and never gave a shit once the new boys came along—in this case, Macauley Culkin and Brett Barnes (who can continue to issue their denials but I'll never not believe they wasn't treated the same way as Gavin, Jordan, Jimmy, and Wade). Jackson was a serial pedophile who had us all groomed back in the 80s and early 90s with his "I never had a childhood" spiel and his constant stream of "he's just eccentric" PR stunts (Elephant Man bones/hyperbaric chamber nonsense). He laid that groundwork specifically so that anyone automatically just poo-poo'd his "love of children" as him just being a lovable icon with a "terrible childhood" who was just having the "childhood he never had" as an adult. I know I fell for it. Until Jordan Chandler came forward and that was the end of any misgivings I ever had about him. 

Fuck him. I hope he's rotting in hell.

I hope he’s suffering too. But I can believe Culkin in that he was never abused my Michael. Abusers don’t abuse every child they know, and they tend to target the most vulnerable. Culkin may have been his “cover” as he was a rich child actor at that time. 

That entire “never had a childhood” thing would’ve made sense if 1. He was letting kids be kids and play together (funding theatre camps and things) or 2. He was hosting “parties” for HIS ADULT FRIENDS with childlike themes, renting out water parks and shit that rich people do. Not trying to be 10yrs old again. He was a sick man. 

Spoiler

Like how B in Abucted in Plain Sight ONLY targeted Jan and left the other girls alone.

[Drogo]

12 hours ago, qtpye said:

It is shocking how they were so seduced by the lifestyle that they were turning a blind eye to the total inappropriateness of the behavior. Robson’s mother almost seemed more disappointed in her son being “replaced” than by the fact that this weirdo was having private slumber parties alone with her son. 

It's reminiscent of the parents who would vie in the olden days to have their child become a King's concubine, and secure status and riches for themselves in the process.  We should be a good bit past that, but The Good Life is still a tempting apple.  

Michael Jackson was a musical genius.. changed the game performance-wise... also raped children.  There's no amount of death that changes any of that.

[Lady Iris]

9 minutes ago, Drogo said:

It's reminiscent of the parents who would vie in the olden days to have their child become a King's concubine, and secure status and riches for themselves in the process.  We should be a good bit past that, but The Good Life is still a tempting apple.  

Michael Jackson was a musical genius.. changed the game performance-wise... also raped children.  There's no amount of death that changes any of that.

Ooh. This is so scarily true it made me cringe. Unless its shown in the 2nd episode, we've yet to see any outrage or horror from these two mothers.

23 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

 It’s already been bought and paid for (I’m not upset that Paris, Prince and Blanket will benefit) but I’m not comfortable at all. (Not attacking anyone that still enjoys it)

Completely agreed with you. Part of me wishes I could forget and just bee-bop along to all those songs of his that I love but I just can't. Not anymore.

[cpcathy]

I'm curious as to what part two will give us.

I believe the two men 100%. The entire ordeal is terribly sad, but it seems it had to be said to start a larger conversation.

And, as usual, I'm so grateful I don't have children. It seems they are either abused or they become the abuser.

[Liamsmom617]

 This has been sickening. I halfway agree with the posters who've said that, in MJ's mind, he wasn't doing anything wrong, but he knew society believed it was wrong and that he therefore had to hide it. And as for discarding one kid for another, from biographies I read about him back in the day, he was similarly ruthless with managers and other people he employed. Plying them w/alcohol, though?  Getting them aroused w/hetero porn (which, yes, sexuality is a continuum, so who knows, maybe that actually turned MJ on too....but I highly doubt it)....That kinda changes the narrative for me. 

  My belief at the time of his death, and even more so now, is that he was beginning to feel attracted to/compelled to molest his two sons, and that put strain on his heart and caused him to literally need to be knocked out with Propofol to be able to sleep. Think about it: At the time he died, his oldest son was 12 and his youngest son was 7.  Those are the ages Jimmy Safechuck and Wade Robson were when he molested them.

  He was clearly a sick fuck, more so than any of us ever suspected. Damaged, yes. None of that condones or excuses ANY of this. As a social worker, I'm fascinated (while still horrified) by the psychology/psychiatry of all this. Other mental health professionals I know have speculated that MJ was schizoaffective. (Being a caseworker, not an LCSW/counselor, I've had to look that up b/c I am not 100% sure I know what that diagnosis is.)

   It's like a worst-case scenario or perfect storm: Damaged, sick pedophile w/all the money in the world with which to bribe families and stock his house and property with amusement parks, video games, etc. and the fame and public acclaim to cause people to seek him out. He didn't have to coach a children's sports team or work in clergy or as a teacher to get access to potential victims. They came to him.

[Scarlett45]

7 minutes ago, Liamsmom617 said:

 This has been sickening. I halfway agree with the posters who've said that, in MJ's mind, he wasn't doing anything wrong, but he knew society believed it was wrong and that he therefore had to hide it. And as for discarding one kid for another, from biographies I read about him back in the day, he was similarly ruthless with managers and other people he employed. Plying them w/alcohol, though?  Getting them aroused w/hetero porn (which, yes, sexuality is a continuum, so who knows, maybe that actually turned MJ on too....but I highly doubt it)....That kinda changes the narrative for me. 

  My belief at the time of his death, and even more so now, is that he was beginning to feel attracted to/compelled to molest his two sons, and that put strain on his heart and caused him to literally need to be knocked out with Propofol to be able to sleep. Think about it: At the time he died, his oldest son was 12 and his youngest son was 7.  Those are the ages Jimmy Safechuck and Wade Robson were when he molested them.

  He was clearly a sick fuck, more so than any of us ever suspected. Damaged, yes. None of that condones or excuses ANY of this. As a social worker, I'm fascinated (while still horrified) by the psychology/psychiatry of all this. Other mental health professionals I know have speculated that MJ was schizoaffective. (Being a caseworker, not an LCSW/counselor, I've had to look that up b/c I am not 100% sure I know what that diagnosis is.)

   It's like a worst-case scenario or perfect storm: Damaged, sick pedophile w/all the money in the world with which to bribe families and stock his house and property with amusement parks, video games, etc. and the fame and public acclaim to cause people to seek him out. He didn't have to coach a children's sports team or work in clergy or as a teacher to get access to potential victims. They came to him.

I agree with a lot of what you said. Also MJ probably discarded the boys 1. To protect himself from getting caught, 2. They were getting older than his age preference, 3. Them getting older made them less pliable, and more likely to lash out at him- destroying his illusion. 

As far as his sons; of course I hope nothing every happened to them for their own sake. Children do love their abusers, but I won’t forget the look on Paris’ face at the funeral when she said “My Dad was the best Dad.”- his children loved him, and I hope hope HOPE he didn’t betray their trust and hurt them too. 

30 minutes ago, cpcathy said:

I'm curious as to what part two will give us.

I believe the two men 100%. The entire ordeal is terribly sad, but it seems it had to be said to start a larger conversation.

And, as usual, I'm so grateful I don't have children. It seems they are either abused or they become the abuser.

I am childfree as well. The thing is, growing up I knew these types of things happened (my family talked about it) and that kids were hurt, but I thought it was RARE. Awful and horrible but RARE. I assumed most children grew up like I did (loved and safe and secure). When I think about it I know why my parents were “over protective”. I don’t think most people grow up to abuse- I think there are a significant minority that prey on lots and lots of people, 10 people like MJ may create thousands of victims, not 1000s of people who want to hurt kids. 

[BitterApple]

qtpye, I agree wholeheartedly about the mothers. I don't think they consciously traded their sons for money and fame, but they absolutely overlooked a lot of behavior that would've never been tolerated in real life. Imagine if it was these kids' soccer coaches or math teachers who wanted to have sleepovers and hold hands and play Nintendo in their childrens' bedrooms. They would've reported it in a heartbeat. 

Looking back at all the footage, it's really amazing how Michael's starpower eclipsed the red flags. This guy was the biggest icon on the planet and instead of having girlfriends he was always in the company of pre-pubescent boys? Just the optics of that alone should've had the world going, wtf?

[Lady Iris]

I do wonder what if anything was going on around the time MJ was married to Lisa Marie Presley. Did she ever see anything or was that a period of time that he tried to play it safe to try and better his image? I still remember that ghastly awkward hug and kiss on MTV during some awards program.

[Scarlett45]

38 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

qtpye, I agree wholeheartedly about the mothers. I don't think they consciously traded their sons for money and fame, but they absolutely overlooked a lot of behavior that would've never been tolerated in real life. Imagine if it was these kids' soccer coaches or math teachers who wanted to have sleepovers and hold hands and play Nintendo in their childrens' bedrooms. They would've reported it in a heartbeat. 

Looking back at all the footage, it's really amazing how Michael's starpower eclipsed the red flags. This guy was the biggest icon on the planet and instead of having girlfriends he was always in the company of pre-pubescent boys? Just the optics of that alone should've had the world going, wtf?

I think we are close to the same age- I remember my elders going “wtf” to MJ. Many thought he was gay, but others thought “nah he’s not “gay gay” he likes kids”( there’s still ignorance that gay men are more likely to be pedophiles- edited to add, I am stating that there are many people who believe that, not that I believe that or that it’s true). 

I think that MJ’s money and fame allowed him to use different tactics than the regular predator down the street-who may have targeted a kid who’s parents were off working to put food on the table and weren’t around to witness the weirdo behavior with their own eyes; MJ could just invite people over. But if you watch other documentaries like Abducted in Plain Sight or The Keepers a LOT of these types weren’t sneaky at all! Just very very powerful.  

22 minutes ago, Lady Iris said:

I do wonder what if anything was going on around the time MJ was married to Lisa Marie Presley. Did she ever see anything or was that a period of time that he tried to play it safe to try and better his image? I still remember that ghastly awkward hug and kiss on MTV during some awards program.

I thought he married her to make himself appear heteronormative. 

[wendyg]

7 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

( there’s still ignorance that gay men are more likely to be pedophiles). 

Scarlett45: I believe there is a lot of evidence showing that that is *not* true. Pedophilia and homosexuality are not related.

[maggiegil]

This was suggested to me on youtube probably as I watched the trailer on there. I don't understand the cognitive dissonance of acknowledging that he had inappropriate relationships with boys, sleeping, showering with them etc. but refusing point blank to entertain the idea that he could have molested them. It really shows the power of celebrity.

Any other man who did what he admitted he did with young boys just even sleeping in the same bed as them would in no way get any kind of benefit of the doubt. If you watch the Bashir documentary, hes grooming his victim and I believe it happened to the men in the doc too.

How come the victims motivation can be called into question but the familys motivation to protect their cash cow isn't being questioned.

[maggiegil]

12 minutes ago, Lady Iris said:

I do wonder what if anything was going on around the time MJ was married to Lisa Marie Presley. Did she ever see anything or was that a period of time that he tried to play it safe to try and better his image? I still remember that ghastly awkward hug and kiss on MTV during some awards program.

He liked to collect things, perhaps she was the ultimate piece of Elvis memorabilia. I always thought her motivation for marrying him could have been down to scientology wanting to recruit him

[Scarlett45]

16 minutes ago, wendyg said:

Scarlett45: I believe there is a lot of evidence showing that that is *not* true. Pedophilia and homosexuality are not related.

Of course they aren’t! There’s a lot of ignorant people out there that think that they are. Let me go back and make sure my post makes that clear. 

 

15 minutes ago, maggiegil said:

How come the victims motivation can be called into question but the familys motivation to protect their cash cow isn't being questioned.

Victim blaming at its finest. How come we always hold those with the least social power responsible for preventing abuse and assault, but not asking the abusers to not abuse people? The parents had more motivation to lie and hide evidence because they were getting the big pay day, yet people are questioning the victims (now adults). Ummmhmmm. 

[wendyg]

19 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Of course they aren’t! There’s a lot of ignorant people out there that think that they are. Let me go back and make sure my post makes that clear.

I could not be happier to learn that I misread that!

[Scarlett45]

1 minute ago, wendyg said:

I could not be happier to learn that I misread that!

The internet can be weird. It’s okay. Sometimes I skip words when I type/read on my phone too quickly. 😁

[Robert Lynch]

5 hours ago, funky-rat said:

Watch the South Park episode with "Mr. Jefferson" if you haven't seen it already.  It's scary how they hit the nail on the head with it, and how most kids' families saw something wrong with his creepy obsession, but he was able to snow Cartman, who comes from a questionable home.

Not just South Park, but Mad TV, In Living Color, and SNL were spoofing on MJ's bizarre behavior from the 90s-mid 00s. I remember Phil LaMarr the most out of all comedians that portrayed MJ. I think after the 2005 trial ended, it stopped. Everything was back to normal. Watching these sketches again, I forgot how ruthless the writers were then. And with this documentary out, it becomes not a laughing matter no more.

Edited March 4, 2019 by Robert Lynch

[Growsonwalls]

2 hours ago, Drogo said:

It's reminiscent of the parents who would vie in the olden days to have their child become a King's concubine, and secure status and riches for themselves in the process.  We should be a good bit past that, but The Good Life is still a tempting apple.  

Michael Jackson was a musical genius.. changed the game performance-wise... also raped children.  There's no amount of death that changes any of that.

I think the parents are worse than the parents who sent their daughters to become concubines simply because back in the day daughters were "meant" to be married off. And the parents might have genuinely thought that sending their daughters to live in a palace when they could not provide for their daughters was the best choice. Plus, many had no choice ... the King's word was law.

But the mothers of Wade and James ... no feeling that these two moms were particularly hard up on money. They weren't struggling to eek a living out. They seemed to live comfortable if not glamorous lives. And the fact that they still don't feel remorse for what happened is sickening.

[spaceghostess]

Watched part II this morning and am still processing. In addition to the Slate editorial piece and the Jezebel interview, there's this other Slate interview with the director that's illuminating. I'm still unable to muster compassion for Wade and James' mothers. Not absolving their dads at all, but it seems the moms were more in the driver's seat as far as controlling (or not) interactions between their children and Jackson, who I'm becoming ever more convinced was the brand of narcissist who could talk his marks into anything. My ex is a malignant narcissist who had people running around at his beck and call, doing truly bizarre things during the course of our  separation and divorce. He'd meet strangers and, within days of acquaintance, have them believing he was their best pal. Next thing you know they were doing him favors like helping him move (who does that for someone they just met?) and stalking and filming me when I was with our kids. He also had former clients (who knew me and our children) come out of the woodwork to not only represent him in divorce court, but to rent him an apartment (with office space!) for a knock-down price. This is all to say that Jackson using long phone calls to develop "relationships" and curry favor with the mothers sounded all too familiar.

This whole thing puts me in mind of the monstrous Jimmy Savile, who predated children (via his "charity work" in hospitals and schools, ugh) on an unprecedented level for more than 50 YEARS. He managed to die a rich old creep without any legal action taken against him, thanks to the culture of the time and a massive network of protectors. When the news broke, I was still married to the ex (he's English, but I, as a Beeb Radio addict, was always more informed about what was happening in his home country). I told him about Savile and he was, as the Brits say, gobsmacked. It was and is such a horror show--no justice for anyone Savile abused, and he victimized literally hundreds and hundreds of kids.

Edited March 4, 2019 by spaceghostess

[Drogo]

I made it to 42:42 before the overwhelming anger set in. 

Jimmy just looks/sounds like someone who's tired of carrying a heavy burden. 

[Scarlett45]

3 hours ago, Robert Lynch said:

Not just South Park, but Mad TV, In Living Color, and SNL were spoofing on MJ's bizarre behavior from the 90s-mid 00s. I remember Phil LaMarr the most out of all comedians that portrayed MJ. I think after the 2005 trial ended, it stopped. Everything was back to normal. Watching these sketches again, I forgot how ruthless the writers were then. And with this documentary out, it becomes not a laughing matter no more.

I was a kid then, but I think that when all the boys started to come forward it wasn’t a “joke” with names and faces to the rapes. Not that child rape (or any rape) should be a joke, but we know that people do joke about things like that. Making fun of the “weirdo” is one thing, living kids talking about their rape makes the weirdo jokes even more “not funny”. 

 

3 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

I think the parents are worse than the parents who sent their daughters to become concubines simply because back in the day daughters were "meant" to be married off. And the parents might have genuinely thought that sending their daughters to live in a palace when they could not provide for their daughters was the best choice. Plus, many had no choice ... the King's word was law.

Ding ding. 100% agreed. All women were meant to be married and the king’s mistress was a guaranteed better life even after he was done with you (making a good marriage for you as a thank you) never mind being the mother to a Royal bastard and the perks of that. I don’t think you’re suggesting people pimping their minor children out is the same @Drogo; people making the best out of a bad situation when they had no social or legal recourse is different than the pure greed of selling your child. 

[Irlandesa]

10 hours ago, Giant Misfit said:

I was struck by something I think Dan Reed said to Wade—it was something to the effect of calling Michael his "lover," which, in fact, is a complete mischaracterization. Michael was his rapist, above all else. Wade was in no position as a child to take on a "lover."

I think he said "lover" instead of "rapist" as a way to showcase the state of mind Wade and Jim were in.  At that time, they felt like Michael's special friends.  They loved Michael.  They thought Michael loved them. Even though he was their rapist, that's not how they saw him until they were probably much much older.  I think the way pedophiles convince their victims of how special and pure their love is should be highlighted.  It's the reason it's hard for victims to come to terms with how much someone they loved damaged them.  It's the reason the kids wanted to spend time with their molesters. 

It reminds me of Abducted In Plain Sight when Jan says at the end that she---

Spoiler

never loved anyone the way she loved B (the man who abused her).  She says this knowing how messed up it is. 

46 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

But the mothers of Wade and James ... no feeling that these two moms were particularly hard up on money. They weren't struggling to eek a living out. They seemed to live comfortable if not glamorous lives. And the fact that they still don't feel remorse for what happened is sickening.

I think the tricky thing is that Michael chose two boys who clearly had aspirations of being artists.  It's similar to R. Kelly in that, even if the parents are financially stable, very few people in the world can give the kids the opportunities that Michael could.  They wanted to stay with him.  It was probably hard to imagine they'd feel that way if he were abusing them.

[CherryMalotte]

Heartbreaking...and I don't know many times I felt queasy when the men were describing what MJ was doing to them.  What I don't understand and frankly never understood is why people gave him a pass on this behavior - I mean, how many molested children do the naysayers want before they can believe that their precious MJ is capable of these actions?

[Scarlett45]

2 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

I think he said "lover" instead of "rapist" as a way to showcase the state of mind Wade and Jim were in.  At that time, they felt like Michael's special friends.  They loved Michael.  They thought Michael loved them. Even though he was their rapist, that's not how they saw him until they were probably much much older.  I think the way pedophiles convince their victims of how special and pure their love is should be highlighted.  It's the reason it's hard for victims to come to terms with how much someone they loved damaged them.  It's the reason the kids wanted to spend time with their molesters. 

It reminds me of Abducted In Plain Sight when Jan says at the end that she---

  Hide contents

never loved anyone the way she loved B (the man who abused her).  She says this knowing how messed up it is. 

I think the tricky thing is that Michael chose two boys who clearly had aspirations of being artists.  It's similar to R. Kelly in that, even if the parents are financially stable, very few people in the world can give the kids the opportunities that Michael could.  They wanted to stay with him.  It was probably hard to imagine they'd feel that way if he were abusing them.

I think the saddest thing about MJ and others like him is that they get inside the head of their victims and prey on their very real human needs of love, attention, affection, validation etc. They make these kids think that the abuse is a small price to pay for all the things (material and otherwise) the abuser can give them. The mind trip that stays with them has to be just as bad if not worse than the physical assault. 

[Growsonwalls]

I think MJ also was warped enough in the head to think that he was NOT abusing them. I think he thought of abuse as the way his father was to him -- physically violent, mentally harsh, pushing him to do more and more shows and beating him if he ever had a bad night. In his mind how was he abusive? He was showering the boys with gifts, opportunities in the business, "affection," and he was taking care of their parents as well. The sexual abuse I think he just rationalized away as, well, no one is forcing them to come over and sleep with me. 

I noticed the same thing during the Larry Nassar trials. Nassar was always of the opinion that unlike the coaches of the gymnasts he didn't yell at the girls, berate them, hit them, make them do run-throughs when they were injured, starve them, weight them every day, etc. He bought them their favorite foods, he complimented them, he was a shoulder to cry on. So in his twisted mind the "procedures" he was doing on them wasn't abuse. 

Sexual abusers have this way of compartmentalizing abuse as something purely physical. 

[sadie]

As with Abducted In Plain Sight the mother’s in this made me furious. The way they smiled and recounted how fab things were with Michael made no sense. If someone did to me want Jackson did to their sons you would expect tears, shaking hands, troubled looks - nope not these two, just how little very the guest house was and the first class flights. And the grandmother sayings tone point how “Michael” ruined their family with no acknowledgement that these mothers slept in the freaking bedroom next to this pedophile who was openly sleeping in the same bed with their kid made me furious.

i just keep wondering how no one in his circle did anything. Can anyone imagine Bradley Cooper or Ben Affleck hanging out with 7 years old, sleeping in bed with them, asking their parents to leave them? people would show up on their doorstep with pitchforks. Jackson was a MASTER manipulator in crafting his whole boo hoo is me I never had a childhood story as cover.  As I did with the R Kelly and Abducted documentaries, I feel I need a shower after watching. Sickos all of them. 

[qtpye]

25 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I think the saddest thing about MJ and others like him is that they get inside the head of their victims and prey on their very real human needs of love, attention, affection, validation etc. They make these kids think that the abuse is a small price to pay for all the things (material and otherwise) the abuser can give them. The mind trip that stays with them has to be just as bad if not worse than the physical assault. 

He also was very smart by feeding into the mothers’ egos. One mother talked about how MJ wanted to be part of their family and said he always wanted a mother like her. Next, we hear the son talking about how MJ used to listen in on the phones when she was arguing with her husband and talk about how all women were bad. He seemed to have a lot of misogyny in him from what I can tell.I think some of it stems from resentment that his own mother did not protect him from his father.

I also think he justified his own attraction to young boys because he considered adult women to be “dirty jezabells” and young boys were pure and innocent in his own sick mind. This is not an uncommon mindset in some ultra religious households. 

[Scarlett45]

4 minutes ago, sadie said:

i just keep wondering how no one in his circle did anything. 

Money. 

I think there were probably some decent people who may have stood up and tried to protect the kids/warn the parents, but they were likely fired once discovered or quit because they couldn’t be a part of it any more. 

[NeenerNeener]

8 hours ago, car54 said:

I was originally feeling sick or sad for ALL of them--including Michael--who had such a messed up childhood himself that turned him into such a messed up man.

But that line, plus all the steps he took with them--the drilling on how to get dressed quickly, bells on the doors to warn him if anyone got close to his bedroom when he was with one of his boys, all the different private, separate places he could be alone with them.     

He knew it was wrong and he did everything he could to get what he wanted and not get caught.

We've all heard about how bad his childhood was, but we've never heard if MJ himself was molested when he was a child. Where did he learn how to "groom" a potential victim and the victim's family?

I'd like to think my friends who have children would have been freaked out by MJ wanting to share a bed with their kids, but damn, he really was a "Smooth Criminal" so I'm not sure.

[Growsonwalls]

I think MJ was also in his weird way a very good brother/son. He had a good relationship with his siblings even after he surpassed them in fame and they became "the other Jackson boys." He provided for his family and friends. He knew how to pick friends -- the eccentric, lonely but glamorous Elizabeth Taylor was a good example. She like Michael had a stage mother, no childhood, and had to support her entire family from a young age. So I can believe that his family only saw the responsible brother and son. Abusers have a switch and it seems MJ was particularly adept at turning his switch on and off.

[Drogo]

You know what I find annoying.. that we don't hear the interviewer's questions or tone/approach. 

[Swartz]

Both mothers talked about how lonely MJ was but that was probably part of MJs plan so that he could get access to their young sons.  But where were MJ's brothers and sisters?  Did he have any kind of relationship with them?  Did they not suspect anything or see anything suspicious?

[kathe5133]

I've read all the comments, but haven't watched.  I was never a fan.  Vocally, he was just not that talented.  Boy soprano, one trick pony in my opinion.  He was a good dancer, but there are many, many out there who are better.  Never understood the idolotry.  He was a weirdo.  Pure and simple.  I plan to watch this evening, but I think the fact that all of this will most likely just confirm my "weirdo" theory, may make it too infuriating to sit through 4 hours, but I'm a documentary junkie so I know I can't resist.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, CherryMalotte said:

What I don't understand and frankly never understood is why people gave him a pass on this behavior

Because IMO they (myself included) had it drilled into them from the media who regurgitated everything Jackson proclaimed as truth that he was somehow being extorted by greedy people who were twisting his "love of children" into something "evil." He was—and always will be— a pedophile hiding in plain sight. The power of his propaganda campaign from those two cases resonates still. 

6 minutes ago, SnK said:

But where were MJ's brothers and sisters?  Did he have any kind of relationship with them?  Did they not suspect anything or see anything suspicious?

I'm sure they all knew and didn't/don't care because for the most part, they're jobless losers whose only concern is the continuing income his estate provides. There was a clip of LaToya speaking to Katie Couric I posted on the first page that has her retelling a story of her mother calling Michael the f-word because he was always in the company of male children. She knew. They all knew.

[ruby24]

He definitely thought because he wasn't "violent" and made them "fall in love" with him that it wasn't abuse, that's how child molesters think. But he also knew how wrong it was, and I really think this kind of sickness eats at you from the inside as you indulge in criminal behavior and the destruction of one kid's life after another. In some ways it may have played itself out on his physical appearance over the years as well. You know how they say your soul shows in your face? He grew more and more to resemble on the outside the monster he was on the inside, in my opinion.

Especially the more passive, introverted people like him, who don't express themselves aggressively or in an openly hostile manner, but internalize things and outwardly behave in this seemingly gentle, very controlled way. Their evil will eat away at them from within. 

Edited March 5, 2019 by ruby24

[Penman61]

Everyone's rightfully covering the big-ticket outrages and questions. 

So I hope this less important question doesn't rankle:

Any guesses what the market value of the stuff Wade Robson is shown burning in still photos at the end of part 2?  I saw a glitter glove and the red jacket.  Millions, right? 

Really shuts up those who claim Wade is "in it for the money."

Edited March 5, 2019 by Penman61

[Growsonwalls]

You know what's chilling? Seeing MJ's lawyers and their glib, smooth, but totally unconvincing answers. I've been around enough lawyers to know when they have this "I know this is total BS" inflection in their voice, and Johnnie Cochran definitely sounded like he barely could believe the BS he was spewing. I know lawyers have to make a living and everyone has the right to a legal defense but Cochran's ability to defend people he probably knew were guilty as sin was kind of creepy.

[Drogo]

No one would say this precise disgusting shit happened if it didn't happen.  Both of these guys look like they were hit by a steam engine. 

[Growsonwalls]

Something I noticed: the moms of all the boys to this day are extremely attractive women. They were even more so when MJ was with their sons. But I'm wondering if many of them were wannabe starlets who not only wanted their sons to be in the business, but wanted to be actresses themselves. 

[car54]

Quote

Any guesses what the market value of the stuff Wade Robson is shown burning in still photos at the end of part 2?  I saw a glitter glove and the red jacket.  Millions, right? 

More info about Wade and the memorabilia here.

https://people.com/music/wade-robson-burns-rare-michael-jackson-memorabilia-leaving-neverland/

[Scarlett45]

29 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

Something I noticed: the moms of all the boys to this day are extremely attractive women. They were even more so when MJ was with their sons. But I'm wondering if many of them were wannabe starlets who not only wanted their sons to be in the business, but wanted to be actresses themselves. 

That’s possible, but MJ may have been attracted to boys that were “attractive” by social standards. The boys all grew up to be attractive men- could just be that they came from attractive people (good genes and all). 

I am not a psychiatrist (I’m a lawyer), but I don’t think most people who abuse children are actually pedophiles (meaning a primary or exclusive sexual attraction to prepubescent children)- the numbers don’t make sense. I think most of these abusers are just sadistic people who like power and control and will go after an easy target (like the people who abuse mentally disabled adults- they do it because it’s easy to get away with it, not because they have no other sexual options). However I think Michael was actually a pedophile, which he is why he was so invested in his illusions. He had every resource to get himself help and keep himself away from children

53 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

He definitely thought because he wasn't "violent" and made them "fall in love" with him that it wasn't abuse, that's how child molesters think. But he also knew how wrong it was, and I really think this kind of sickness eats at you from the inside as you indulge in criminal behavior and the destruction of one kid's life after another. In some ways it may have played itself out on his physical appearance over the years as well. You know how they say your soul shows in your face? He grew more and more to resemble on the outside the monster he was on the inside, in my opinion.

Especially the more passive, introverted people like him, who don't express themselves aggressively or in an openly hostile manner, but internalize things and outwardly behave in this seemingly gentle, very controlled way. Their evil will eat away at them from within. 

That’s a very good point. I also think we have a social perception of male sexuality that’s “assertive” and “agressive”. Because Michael put on this child like demeanor people didn’t think of him a sexual being, he played on that. You don’t have to be aggressive to be an abuser. I can certainly see how in the 1980s/1990s young boys weren’t taught to recognize the signs of “grooming”. Things are different now, but young girls have been taught to fear rape and sexual abuse right after we were taught our address. I can see how many young men 30 years ago weren’t given such lessons. For the record I’m in no way blaming the boys at all, I’m pointing out how it would be possible for them or outsiders not to recognize it as abuse right away. 

55 minutes ago, Giant Misfit said:

I'm sure they all knew and didn't/don't care because for the most part, they're jobless losers whose only concern is the continuing income his estate provides. There was a clip of LaToya speaking to Katie Couric I posted on the first page that has her retelling a story of her mother calling Michael the f-word because he was always in the company of male children. She knew. They all knew.

I agree they knew. But they ALL (minus Janet, who was famous and rich in her own right) wanted Michael’s money. They might have kept their own kids away from him (as in no time with him alone) and “stayed out of his business”.