S14.E13: Lebanon (Episode 300)

[Guest]

Sam and Dean look to occult lore for a solution to their latest problem, but instead of a resolution, they find much more than either of them had anticipated.

[Jediknight]

Incredible episode.

Got to get this out of the way, but it's still surprising to see how much Jeffrey Dean Morgan has slimmed down from seasons 1 and 2.

The show let the boys be happy, yeah John had to go back, but the Winchesters got to be happy for a little bit, they got more time with John, and got one last dinner.  It wasn't a demon using John, it was actually John.  That was great to see.  The only bad thing is that John didn't get to meet Cas and Jack.  I would have liked for him to meet 2 other members of the Winchester clan.  They did get a bit of a mention to John, when Dean said that he did have a family.

John's face when he heard Mary's voice, he went through every emotion possible.  Great job by Morgan.  He got to see his boys one last time, and got to see Mary again.

I'm also a fan of there being 3 teenagers out there, that know what the Winchesters do, and are fans of them.  They think it's awesome that Sam and Dean hunt monsters.  I'm guessing we'll see those kids again.  Maybe they ask Sam and Dean for help, or they become friends of Jack.

The 300th episode lived up to everything.  And we got Zachariah back for an episode.

Also, nice bit of explanation for why John would make the deal with Azazel.  He thinks it was a dream, but he knows his boys will be fine without him, and the world will be fine with them protecting it, and occasionally breaking it.

Edited February 9, 2019 by Jediknight

[Female83]

I thought this episode was very good despite Castiel being in it for a short. I liked the scenes where John and Mary see each other for the first time in years, the dinner scene, and before John is sent back to 2003. 

[Icarus]

I really enjoyed this episode, I didn't really tear up as many seem to have done but I certainly had the feels. Apart from JDM being back though I wouldn't have called it a particularly wonderful episode for a 300 but I am not sure how they could have made it any more special. One thing I was impressed with was Sam Smith – she can actually act! I am not a fan of either the character Mary or Sam Smith but she did IMO well here. I felt satisfied with how Dean was i.e. he was acknowledging there were issues, I really felt he was his own man. Need to watch again to fully understand how I feel about it.

[mertensia]

This was okay.

I was also amused by the lighter taking forever to light. 

I will always take Sam's side when it comes to clowns. Always.

Aw, Dean knows all about Marta's family. 

Poor Mary. 

[starfishka]

Very disappointed with this episode. Average and dull. Why did Cas "change" immediately and Dean and Sam didn't? Why was Mary still there with them and didn´t disappear?  Am I suppose to believe - Winchester´s/anybody's wish so different rules for him/her and his/her family? The most emotional moment for me was when Dean flinched after Sam destroyed that pearl. That one got me. 

[Iguana]

Well the 300th episode was pretty good. I didn’t love it like 200 (one of my favourites) but I liked that Sam and Dean got to have closure with John and got to hear him say he was proud of them.  They deserved that. I liked that they again chose their lives.  I thought the reactions of Mary to John and John to Mary was sad and sweet, and Samantha Smith finally showed me she can do more with Mary than just staring blankly.  The stuff with the kids and other locals and the stuff from the occult pawnshop was fine but definitely belonged in another episode. 

Jeffery Dean Morgan is a good actor and he really sold John’s  surprised joy at seeing Mary again and his determined sorrow at having to leave her again too. And I believed that John was proud of and pleased for his sons and really regretted some of what he did as a parent.  So that’s good. 

But, as I have previously expressed in John’s thread, John was still a shitty father who put his revenge ahead of his kids and treated them terribly.  It’s great for the boys that they were able to reconcile a lot of their issues and move on from blame and resentment of John but I still say John sucks.  

That being said, damn JDM/John is seriously hot and I hope Mary and he found a bit of privacy before the pearl got smashed. 

[Bergamot]

I thought this was a very odd and superficial episode considering the significance of the subject matter.  As far as I'm concerned, there was nothing in the interactions between John and his sons that we had not seen before, in better-written scenes in previous episodes: John saying he never wanted things to end up this way for his sons, John expressing pride in his sons, his sons expressing their love and understanding that he did the best he could, John saying goodbye, and so on.

As for John and Mary, I never really thought of them as a great love story for the ages (as Dean says, their marriage wasn't perfect until after Mary had died), and I thought the episode handled their reunion with way too much stagey sentimentality in place of anything of substance. Did we even hear a single conversation between them? It was all just kissing and tears and handholding and more tears. As a couple, John and Mary actually had an interesting history, with a weird and tragic trajectory, but you would never know it from this episode, which reduced their relationship to a generic, sentimental romance.

[Jediknight]

16 minutes ago, Iguana said:

That being said, damn JDM/John is seriously hot and I hope Mary and he found a bit of privacy before the pearl got smashed. 

Sam and Dean were out of the bunker for a good amount of time.

[Aeryn13]

It was okay. 

John was in it for was too short a time to actually address something meaty and relevant so they kept everything superficial and shallow to pretend it was "closure". Yeah sure, that is how human emotions work.

Sam got the closest to it because at least his scene addressed  his anguish over not getting to say goodbye.

Dean on the other hand got nothing but surface fluff. His final scene with John in IMTOD was a thousand times deeper. 

But then came the secret and John's deal and everything and what we got here was "I thought you were gonna be a suburban dad".  The problem was John being plucked from pre-show, a meaningless time to her closure for Dean. It was suited for closure with Sam in some level but not Dean.

Any scene with Mary just bores me. I felt nothing over her crying as I think it was still all about her.

Overall John was a gimmick to write maudlin angst and wave the family flag. The actors are all good in their scenes but I didn't real feel anything because it was too shallow to connect to.

Dean's speech about being okay with the life was the only thing that felt a bit emotional. 

The other parts of the ep were so-so. Dean knowing the people in town was cute. The flirting with the post lady was cute. The teenagers were pretty annoying cliches, though. Especcially little Miss Car thief.  

Dean is still hunting - and a wanted criminal for it. Sam has become Soulless McTed talk which was a comedy bit.

Zach and Cas were more or less a cameo. And of course Sam needs to get his recreation of Dean killing Zach. The only thing that was good about the 100th episode and they had to screw with it in the 300th. Eye-roll. 

A couple funny lines and Easter Eggs in the ep but the underlying emotion was just too flimsy for me.

Oh, and of course Azazel would have just not killed Jessica to get Sam back in the life. And Michael especially would have shelved  the Apokalypse plans. The AU totally taught as  that. And all because John disappeared in 2003. That is some bullshit.

Edited February 9, 2019 by Aeryn13

[bettername2come]

Samantha Smith and Jeffrey Dean Morgan had great chemistry when they were reunited. God, we haven’t seen those two together since the pilot, have we? That alone makes it noteworthy. I like seeing Sam and Dean being the urban legend of the town and always love seeing Dean with the locals, who know him by the closest thing to his real name he can give in a world where he’s been rather famously dead multiple times.

I’m half-convinced that John and Mary did it while Sam and Dean were gone and there’s gonna be a new little brother next season. 

I’m fine with the teens coming back for that theoretical episode I want where Winchesters get help from all the people they’ve saved in the last 14 years.

[Bergamot]

16 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

John was in it for was too short a time to actually address something meaty and relevant so they kept everything superficial and shallow to pretend it was "closure". Yeah sure, that is how human emotions work.

Yes. Except I'm not sure that it was just the length of time available that kept things shallow and superficial. You can pack a lot of meaning and emotion into one short conversation if there is good writing.

I did experience some strong emotions while watching, but I don't think that they were the "feels" that the episode was going for. For one thing, I passionately hate that Dabb is apparently determined to replace "Saving people, hunting things: the family business" with his own catchphrase: "We're the guys who save the world!". So instead of Dean's stated motivation, which goes back to the show's deepest roots -- "At least we can make sure that what happened to us doesn't happen to other families" -- we get a constant chirpy reiteration from the brothers of some version of "We're big heroes!"

(Lately it feels like we hear "WE SAVE THE WORLD!" about once an episode, and I'm tired of it. For one thing, if you were involved in nearly bringing about the end of the world, whether wittingly or not, it might not be a good idea to brag about how you saved it. And for another thing, that's something you let other people say about you, not something you go around announcing about yourself. It is eventually going to make you sound like a pompous ass, in my opinion.)

I really did not like some of John's dialog. Again, everything was kept on a vague and superficial level that didn't seem to actually connect to the show's history -- an odd choice considering what a milestone this episode was.  What exactly did John mean, after Dean and Sam got him caught up on things, by saying "I wish I could have been there to see it"? To see what, exactly? To see Sam die? To see Dean sell his soul and go to Hell? To see Sam get seduced by a demon and addicted to drinking blood? And so on and on? Gosh, yes, John, I wish you could have been there to see it all too -- it was totally awesome!

Sorry, but that was a bizarre thing for him to say. I guess Dean and Sam must have given him a completely whitewashed version of what they had been through since his death. You know, the simplified "We're the guys who save the world!" version of their story that leaves out the important stuff. And they obviously left out the fact that the archangel Michael is trapped in Dean's head right now, fighting to break out and destroy the world. They had to conceal all this, of course, since it seems to have been absolutely essential that John get to return to his own timeline all smiley and guilt-free, and be able to remember his encounter with his family as a "good dream". But if that was the goal, as far as I'm concerned they might as well not have bothered bringing him back.

I also didn't like that John could make a point of apologizing to Sam for having screwed up with him, but not to Dean. But I'm not surprised. No one seems to have noticed how much John screwed up Dean, even when it is specifically brought up, as it was in the previous episode.  And no, expressing pride (John) or gratitude (Sam) for how well Dean carried his burden is not the same as acknowledging the unfairness and wrongness of what was done to him. Sure, Dean did not seem to expect an apology, but of course that's part of who Dean is. The fact that he doesn't expect apologies doesn't mean that he doesn't deserve them.

Still, I think maybe the thing that I disliked the most was that vapid comment from John to Dean: "I guess I had hoped eventually that you would get yourself a normal life, a peaceful life, a family."

"Eventually", John? Yes, I guess it would have to be sometime in the indeterminate future, wouldn't it?  Since you had already made it impossible for him to have a normal peaceful life as a child. Since you raised him as a warrior from the age of four to be Daddy's blunt little instrument -- and since you made sure that he believed that his only purpose in life, his only value as a person, was to take care of Sam. Since he was just a child, but had to be both father and mother to Sam, as well as provide emotional support for you, while also being your good and loyal soldier. But sure, it is nice of you to vaguely and meaninglessly wish that Dean could somehow have a normal peaceful life "eventually". 
 
I liked Dean's response to this comment, though: "I have a family." Mainly because of the layers that Jensen adds to that simple statement. He is not telling John that it's okay, that everything worked out just fine. He does not speak reassuringly, or contentedly, or look hopefully for John's approval. Dean does have a family that loves him, and he deserves their love -- that is a fact. But it is not thanks to John that he has what he has.

[Jediknight]

20 minutes ago, bettername2come said:

I’m half-convinced that John and Mary did it while Sam and Dean were gone and there’s gonna be a new little brother next season. 

Jack won't be the youngest anymore.

[Morrigan2575]

This episode broke my heart in the most beautiful way possible. I have never cried during SPN until this episode and I don't think a single hour of TV has made me cry more. Well done show. 😢.  Knowing from the beginning that 2003 John would have to go back and die didn't protect me from the feels.

Sam getting an apology from John and getting to say goodbye. 😢

Dean getting an affirmation from John, knowing how much John loved him. 😢

John seeing Mary had me in tears, so beautiful.😢😢

Zachariah showing up blew my mind, I can't believe they brought him back. Hee, I loved the Constantine joke, which I didn't get at first. I know who Constantine is and knew Castiel was modeled after him, clothing wise but, my first thought was DBag Zachariah couldn't be bothered to learn the right nae (typical egotistical middle manager). It wasn't until Cas' reply that I got the joke and, then I lost it 🤣

The Sam/Dean talk reaffirming who they are and that this is the life they chose was wonderful, perfect sentiment for their journey. 💕

Ending the episode with Our Castiel coming home and, 2003 John seeming at peace with his happy dream was bittersweet. Dean has always wanted his family together and, now as he told John he has a family (Jack, Mary, Sam, Cas).💕

Fantastic episode. I've waited 12 years for John to come back and, it was so worth it.

[Katy M]

I really liked this episode, but I just can't ignore the big gaping plot hole.

Why would John's disappearance in 2003 have derailed the Apocalpyse plan?  He was peripheral to that, at best.  Sam and Dean were the Michael and Lucifer vessels.   Was it just the angels that ditched?  Did Azazel still kill Jessica and that was why Sam was all "no family" in his Ted talk?  John still disappeared so did Dean go to get SAm to help look for him?  Did he turn him down tis time?  Did he go for a short look, but it was 2 years before Jess died so that was it?

And, I kind of almost felt like it was selfish for them to reset time.  Go with me on this for a sec.  We know, because Zach said, that the apocalypse never happened.  That means Cas never opened Purgatory and let the Leviathans out.  that means that the tablets were never unearthed. That means that whether or not Henry came out of Dean's closet, Abaddon was probably not around after that because without doing trials Dean wouldn't have needed to sew her back together.  That means he wouldn't have taken the Mark of Cain. Which means Amara wouldn't have been let out.   

Add to that, Dean was still hunting, so there were probably no extra deaths, and I think this saved hundred of lives.  If not more.

And, I just have one more thing. Did Cas forget that in order to kill humans, he merely had to place his hand on the forehad and make them go poof?  How were Sam and Dean even fighting them.  In Lucifer Rising, Dean punched Cas and hurt his hand and I don't think Cas even bothered turning his head.

But, even with all those complaints I did like the episode. I just wish that they had shown a bit of John being filled in on a couple of the bigger items so we could have gotten his reactions.

[Aeryn13]

48 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Yes. Except I'm not sure that it was just the length of time available that kept things shallow and superficial. You can pack a lot of meaning and emotion into one short conversation if there is good writing.

I did experience some strong emotions while watching, but I don't think that they were the "feels" that the episode was going for. For one thing, I passionately hate that Dabb is apparently determined to replace "Saving people, hunting things: the family business" with his own catchphrase: "We're the guys who save the world!". So instead of Dean's stated motivation, which goes back to the show's deepest roots -- "At least we can make sure that what happened to us doesn't happen to other families" -- we get a constant chirpy reiteration from the brothers of some version of "We're big heroes!"

(Lately it feels like we hear "WE SAVE THE WORLD!" about once an episode, and I'm tired of it. For one thing, if you were involved in nearly bringing about the end of the world, whether wittingly or not, it might not be a good idea to brag about how you saved it. And for another thing, that's something you let other people say about you, not something you go around announcing about yourself. It is eventually going to make you sound like a pompous ass, in my opinion.)

I really did not like some of John's dialog. Again, everything was kept on a vague and superficial level that didn't seem to actually connect to the show's history -- an odd choice considering what a milestone this episode was.  What exactly did John mean, after Dean and Sam got him caught up on things, by saying "I wish I could have been there to see it"? To see what, exactly? To see Sam die? To see Dean sell his soul and go to Hell? To see Sam get seduced by a demon and addicted to drinking blood? And so on and on? Gosh, yes, John, I wish you could have been there to see it all too -- it was totally awesome!

Sorry, but that was a bizarre thing for him to say. I guess Dean and Sam must have given him a completely whitewashed version of what they had been through since his death. You know, the simplified "We're the guys who save the world!" version of their story that leaves out the important stuff. And they obviously left out the fact that the archangel Michael is trapped in Dean's head right now, fighting to break out and destroy the world. They had to conceal all this, of course, since it seems to have been absolutely essential that John get to return to his own timeline all smiley and guilt-free, and be able to remember his encounter with his family as a "good dream". But if that was the goal, as far as I'm concerned they might as well not have bothered bringing him back.

I also didn't like that John could make a point of apologizing to Sam for having screwed up with him, but not to Dean. But I'm not surprised. No one seems to have noticed how much John screwed up Dean, even when it is specifically brought up, as it was in the previous episode.  And no, expressing pride (John) or gratitude (Sam) for how well Dean carried his burden is not the same as acknowledging the unfairness and wrongness of what was done to him. Sure, Dean did not seem to expect an apology, but of course that's part of who Dean is. The fact that he doesn't expect apologies doesn't mean that he doesn't deserve them.

Still, I think maybe the thing that I disliked the most was that vapid comment from John to Dean: "I guess I had hoped eventually that you would get yourself a normal life, a peaceful life, a family."

"Eventually", John? Yes, I guess it would have to be sometime in the indeterminate future, wouldn't it?  Since you had already made it impossible for him to have a normal peaceful life as a child. Since you raised him as a warrior from the age of four to be Daddy's blunt little instrument -- and since you made sure that he believed that his only purpose in life, his only value as a person, was to take care of Sam. Since he was just a child, but had to be both father and mother to Sam, as well as provide emotional support for you, while also being your good and loyal soldier. But sure, it is nice of you to vaguely and meaninglessly wish that Dean could somehow have a normal peaceful life "eventually". 
 
I liked Dean's response to this comment, though: "I have a family." Mainly because of the layers that Jensen adds to that simple statement. He is not telling John that it's okay, that everything worked out just fine. He does not speak reassuringly, or contentedly, or look hopefully for John's approval. Dean does have a family that loves him, and he deserves their love -- that is a fact. But it is not thanks to John that he has what he has.

All of this pretty much.

I mean back in IMTOD John acknowledged how he put too much in Dean as a child - right before putting too much on him again. But since it wasn't that John who came back, Dean couldn't have a shred of closure here.

He liked having bis father back but since it was only a few hours, everything was nice-nice. A pat "I love you, Im proud of you" and scene. After the glow fades, you'd still be left with the same complicated, conflicting emotions of love/hate/anger/regret you always had because you never got to the root of them. That is not "closure", it's status quo. You have just learned to exist in a permanent state of non-closure with a person. 

This episode attempted to throw a few bright colours at you and pretend it did things it didn't. The only thing that got resolved is that Sam no longer regrets not saying goodbye.

Even Dean's speech just says that he has accepted that he was screwed up and he has accepted it for so long now, he sees no point in changing it anymore. That is at best emotional pragmatism. It is not closure.     

[juppschmitz]

Their flippancy over killing the store owner really grated on me and I found it really inappropriate. So I checked who the writers were, and hey! Meredith Glynn was involved, the Queen of Inappropriateness.

Edited February 9, 2019 by juppschmitz

[Katy M]

33 minutes ago, juppschmitz said:

Their flippancy over killing the store owner really grated on me and I found it really inappropriate. So I checked who the writers were, and hey! Meredith Glynn was involved, the Queen of Inappropriateness.

The store owner at the beginning that Sam and Dean killed, or the store owner that Zach and cas killed?

[juppschmitz]

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

The store owner at the beginning that Sam and Dean killed, or the store owner that Zach and cas killed?

The one that Dean killed, making a flippant remark how he talked too much.

And I don't care that he was a horrible person, a murderer, and about to kill Sam. He could have been disabled and turned over to the police, and they could have belly-ached over taking a human life.

[Lady Calypso]

Well, I'm easily impressed. I really, really liked it. I thought it was a fantastic 300th episode. I mean, the only quibble I have is that I thought they could have either cut out the subplot with the kids or shortened it for more Winchester time. Also, maybe this would have made for a better two-parter, although I guess maybe it was more about the availability of JDM. 

I can handwave John looking vastly different than how he should have looked in 2003. It's better than them trying to fit a wig on JDM. I can handwave his attitude being slightly different because JDM is stepping back into a role he hasn't played in over a decade. Plus, the family scenes were so damn good. 

The John/Sam scene was excellent. I absolutely thought Jared NAILED the scene. It was as if he reverted back into kid form for a bit. He was so, so uncomfortable and it showed. It was so damn good. And then the equally good John/Dean scene at the end. I'm glad John got to tell both boys how proud he was of them.

I was surprised to enjoy the Mary/John stuff as well. It was minimal, and we got to see the two together, which was sweet. 

I liked seeing the return of Zachariah and the return of season 4 Cas. 

Honestly, for what we got, it was nice. I know it was somewhat superficial and that there were some plot holes, but I saw this as a love letter for the Winchester family, to get to see them together for the first time ever (true past selves notwithstanding) so for that part alone, it was great. 

[ILoveReading]

I didn't hate it, but found I was mostly bored.  It was obvious JDM coming back was a ratings gimmick and not really decided to address anything that really needed addressing.  

I found this episode mostly left me cold and lacked all the heart and emotion it was supposed to have .  Because they had JDM for 10 minutes, 12 at most.  The only one who really got any kind of significant moment was Sam.  But even then I felt it was mostly a rehash of his conversation with John in The Song Remains the Same.   I don't begrudge Sam time with John but I would have liked Dean to at least get an apology too. 

But he thrives on trauma so I guess he never needed it addressed, well this Dean fan does. 

Because of the retcon of it being Heaven that put John and Mary together, I don't see their love story as one for the ages either.  They were together because Heaven manipulated them.  They hated each other and wouldn't have even gotten together if not for that.  Their love was artificial to start.   So the big reuniion really doesn't work for me.  Especially with how easy Mary falls for any man she meets.  Plus, Mary certainly had no problem reconnecting with John, despite the fact that he had changed, and she certainly jumped into into the kitchen fast enough for him.   

There was that big WTF with the apocalypse.  If John went missing in 2003, it just seems like Dean would have gone to see Sam two years earlier.   Plus what about all the other psychic kids.  If Sam and Dean weren't involved wouldn't Azazel have just used one of them. 

Other than Sam saying good bye I don't' feel like it covered any new ground.

The teens were annoying cliches.  I don't understand Dabb's obsession with them. I'm sure we'll see them again (Spec not spoiler because Dabb thinking another potential spinoff.  This was written before Mark Pedowitz said they probably wouldn't' try again).  The car stealing girls seemed like a Claire clone. 

There were a few things I liked.

Dean knowing all the town people.  It's typical of Dean to be able to adapt where ever he ends up.  I liked that the post office girl couldn't resist him.  Don't feel bad Marta, most people would have done that same thing. 

I liked Deans' speech.  While it does seem selfish, sending John back, that part doesn't' really bother me because we know that messing with the time line has consequences so it doesn't mean that worse things wouldn't' happen in the future.

I agree with @Bergamot about the "We saved the world" stuff.  That's why Sam's speech at the end of last week was so stupid.  Dean wants to sacrifce himself to save the world and Sam's way of trying to change him mind, was 'Don't save the world Dean because we're the guys that save the world."  Do the writers not see this stuff or do they just ignore it. 

But that seems to be part of the turning hunting into a fantasy and a game that anyone can play.  It sticks out once more that Dean seems to be the only one who still seen hunting as a lonely hard life.  It's jarring.  And I liked it better when hunting was in the shadows and they didn't brag about it every Tom, Dick and Harry. 

My thoughts about the Cas/Zacheriah scene belong in Bitch/Jerk.

[juppschmitz]

I certainly enjoyed this version of Cas. Hint: this is the only version of Cas I actually found not only bearable, but that I actively enjoyed. (Metatron has a lot to answer for with making all the references understandable to Cas. *sigh*)

[MysteryGuest]

This one was a mixed bag for me.  I'm a sap, so the family scenes did what they were intended to do, but I did feel there was a lot missing.  Again, it comes down to writing.  It's just no where near the same quality we used to have, and I think I need to resign myself to the fact that it's not coming back.

Considering it was the 300th episode, I thought they spent way too much time on the teenagers.  I so didn't care about them.  Having the girl steal Baby was just filler, and all we got out of it was your standard ghost burning.  It was just a waste of time that could have been better spent on some actual dialogue between the Winchester family members.

I'm not even going to try to sort out the whole time-travel aspect and what should or shouldn't have happened, because this is SPN, and they're just going to do what they want.  It doesn't really bother me because I wanted the end result.  

I was satisfied with the scenes between John and his sons.  Jared has really impressed me with his acting in the past few episodes.  He doesn't always hit the mark for me, but I think he's nailed the emotional scenes lately.  He got his closure so that's good.  I think Dean got what he needed, as well.  Yes, he recognizes all of the things that John did to screw him up, but he's moved passed all of that.  Their lives are not normal, and that fact isn't John's fault.  So in the end, he's forgiven both of his parents because he realizes there's a bigger picture.  I'm glad that he's good now with who he is.  That's real growth for him.  

The Mary and John scenes were sappy, and that was fine.  I wish they'd spent a little less time chasing teenagers around so we could have gotten a few scenes of dialogue where they explained to John that Mary had continued to hunt after their marriage.  Did they tell him about the deal, and all of that?  And I wasn't sure what he was talking about when he said that he took out Yellow Eyes when he died?  I may have to watch again to pick up on that.

I would rather have had our Cas get to meet John, then to get the 2 minutes of bad-ass Cas and Zachariah.  That seemed kind of pointless, other than to explain the time shift.  

I guess I sound pretty negative about the episode, but that's not really how I felt after watching it.  I think I was just disappointed that it couldn't have been more.  I'll need to watch it again to see if my opinion changes at all.

[Katy M]

32 minutes ago, juppschmitz said:

The one that Dean killed, making a flippant remark how he talked too much.

And I don't care that he was a horrible person, a murderer, and about to kill Sam. He could have been disabled and turned over to the police, and they could have belly-ached over taking a human life.

I don't care about that.  He was about to kill them.  he had all kinds of magic weapons, so getting the drop on him and keeping it until the cops got there wasn't a certainty.  Plus, it would put the cops' lives in danger.  He may have known magic that didn't require an actual article. He had killed another hunter just for profit.    Sam and Dean have killed less deserving of death without batting an eye, so this one didn't bother me in the least.

[juppschmitz]

7 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't care about that.  He was about to kill them.  he had all kinds of magic weapons, so getting the drop on him and keeping it until the cops got there wasn't a certainty.  Plus, it would put the cops' lives in danger.  He may have known magic that didn't require an actual article. He had killed another hunter just for profit.    Sam and Dean have killed less deserving of death without batting an eye, so this one didn't bother me in the least.

Fair enough, let's just disagree on this.

ETA:

I find Dean's flippancy in stark contrast to what he said in Folsom Prison Blues:

"DEAN: Innocent people are dead. Four so far.
SAM: [laughs sarcastically] Yeah, innocent.
DEAN: You from Texas all of a sudden? Just because these people are in jail, doesn’t mean they deserve to die."

“You from Texas all of a sudden?” is what I want to say to everyone thinking it’s no big deal that they go around remorselessly killing people these days. At least Dean didn’t use to be like that

Edited February 9, 2019 by juppschmitz

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

All of this pretty much.

I mean back in IMTOD John acknowledged how he put too much in Dean as a child - right before putting too much on him again. But since it wasn't that John who came back, Dean couldn't have a shred of closure here.

He liked having bis father back but since it was only a few hours, everything was nice-nice. A pat "I love you, Im proud of you" and scene. After the glow fades, you'd still be left with the same complicated, conflicting emotions of love/hate/anger/regret you always had because you never got to the root of them. That is not "closure", it's status quo. You have just learned to exist in a permanent state of non-closure with a person. 

This episode attempted to throw a few bright colours at you and pretend it did things it didn't. The only thing that got resolved is that Sam no longer regrets not saying goodbye.

Even Dean's speech just says that he has accepted that he was screwed up and he has accepted it for so long now, he sees no point in changing it anymore. That is at best emotional pragmatism. It is not closure.     

2 hours ago, Bergamot said:

Yes. Except I'm not sure that it was just the length of time available that kept things shallow and superficial. You can pack a lot of meaning and emotion into one short conversation if there is good writing.

I did experience some strong emotions while watching, but I don't think that they were the "feels" that the episode was going for. For one thing, I passionately hate that Dabb is apparently determined to replace "Saving people, hunting things: the family business" with his own catchphrase: "We're the guys who save the world!". So instead of Dean's stated motivation, which goes back to the show's deepest roots -- "At least we can make sure that what happened to us doesn't happen to other families" -- we get a constant chirpy reiteration from the brothers of some version of "We're big heroes!"

(Lately it feels like we hear "WE SAVE THE WORLD!" about once an episode, and I'm tired of it. For one thing, if you were involved in nearly bringing about the end of the world, whether wittingly or not, it might not be a good idea to brag about how you saved it. And for another thing, that's something you let other people say about you, not something you go around announcing about yourself. It is eventually going to make you sound like a pompous ass, in my opinion.)

I really did not like some of John's dialog. Again, everything was kept on a vague and superficial level that didn't seem to actually connect to the show's history -- an odd choice considering what a milestone this episode was.  What exactly did John mean, after Dean and Sam got him caught up on things, by saying "I wish I could have been there to see it"? To see what, exactly? To see Sam die? To see Dean sell his soul and go to Hell? To see Sam get seduced by a demon and addicted to drinking blood? And so on and on? Gosh, yes, John, I wish you could have been there to see it all too -- it was totally awesome!

Sorry, but that was a bizarre thing for him to say. I guess Dean and Sam must have given him a completely whitewashed version of what they had been through since his death. You know, the simplified "We're the guys who save the world!" version of their story that leaves out the important stuff. And they obviously left out the fact that the archangel Michael is trapped in Dean's head right now, fighting to break out and destroy the world. They had to conceal all this, of course, since it seems to have been absolutely essential that John get to return to his own timeline all smiley and guilt-free, and be able to remember his encounter with his family as a "good dream". But if that was the goal, as far as I'm concerned they might as well not have bothered bringing him back.

I also didn't like that John could make a point of apologizing to Sam for having screwed up with him, but not to Dean. But I'm not surprised. No one seems to have noticed how much John screwed up Dean, even when it is specifically brought up, as it was in the previous episode.  And no, expressing pride (John) or gratitude (Sam) for how well Dean carried his burden is not the same as acknowledging the unfairness and wrongness of what was done to him. Sure, Dean did not seem to expect an apology, but of course that's part of who Dean is. The fact that he doesn't expect apologies doesn't mean that he doesn't deserve them.

Still, I think maybe the thing that I disliked the most was that vapid comment from John to Dean: "I guess I had hoped eventually that you would get yourself a normal life, a peaceful life, a family."

"Eventually", John? Yes, I guess it would have to be sometime in the indeterminate future, wouldn't it?  Since you had already made it impossible for him to have a normal peaceful life as a child. Since you raised him as a warrior from the age of four to be Daddy's blunt little instrument -- and since you made sure that he believed that his only purpose in life, his only value as a person, was to take care of Sam. Since he was just a child, but had to be both father and mother to Sam, as well as provide emotional support for you, while also being your good and loyal soldier. But sure, it is nice of you to vaguely and meaninglessly wish that Dean could somehow have a normal peaceful life "eventually". 
 
I liked Dean's response to this comment, though: "I have a family." Mainly because of the layers that Jensen adds to that simple statement. He is not telling John that it's okay, that everything worked out just fine. He does not speak reassuringly, or contentedly, or look hopefully for John's approval. Dean does have a family that loves him, and he deserves their love -- that is a fact. But it is not thanks to John that he has what he has.

Both of these posts reflect my feelings on this one pretty well, too.

I honestly wasn't even close to crying once, but I was moved when Dean flinched when Sam crushed the pearl and at Dean's face as he hugged the father good-bye.

I've never liked the father and still don't. And yes, IA with Bergamont so strongly about the bolded part. And I even felt that Dean was a bit disgusted with it, too, but didn't want to rock the boat for the obvious reasons. I thought that Jensen made that scene a lot more interesting and layered for his character in that way, so kudos to Mr. Ackles again. Maybe he was trying to pave the way for another JDM return to sort Dean's issues out better because at least he knows that this was too "neat" and unrealistic of a resolution to Dean's problems with his father. I hope that's the case, anyway. And I think that he just buried his anger again and some more in this episode as is his wont with family and as he's done before so many times that it has become second nature to him.

This one was pretty much what I expected it would be, tbh-an emo gimmick for John/JDM's return-and UO, I'm sure, but I think that Nihilism would have made a much better 300th episode than this one.

Edited February 9, 2019 by Myrelle

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I'm sure, but I think that Nihilism would have made a much better 300th episode than this one.

While I liked Nihilism sooo much more, I`m not against making 100th/200th/300th episodes a special gimmick. That is kinda what I expect from them. And most shows do that, they try to make an acknowledgment of the journey so far, of it being worth it for the characters, what they have accomplished, lost and gained. 

And I believe this episode attempted that. But for one it was split in two parts:  there was the family angst with John and the concept of Lebanon and how they see the brothers part. The second probably was supposed to be the episode but then JDM became available and they changed it around. 

I believe they should have stuck to either. Make an episode about John`s return and make it more meaty in addressing things and attempting closure. Or make their Lebanon episode. This hybrid between both didn`t fit together as well. 

What-if-episodes aren`t necessarily bad but the concept of the changed timeline was just relegated to a few jokes, some cameos and some angst at the end.

They just put a soft filter over John because otherwise JDM obviously wasn`t going to come back, he made that clear. And I say that as someone who rolled my eyes when the show was deeply in its "Bobby was the true dad" phase. John in his appearances and stories about him was always both an asshole as well as a father who tried. Lebanon!John was some lollipop!version for the sake of making nice during the short time he was there. I get that noone was screaming and going for the jugular but if there was nothing to be had than shallow niceties, what was the point? It was angst for the sake of angst. 

If you skipped this episode, I reckon you miss nothing in the show and how the brothers are as characters. Zero. This was an aside gimmick.   

[Myrelle]

10 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

While I liked Nihilism sooo much more, I`m not against making 100th/200th/300th episodes a special gimmick. That is kinda what I expect from them. And most shows do that, they try to make an acknowledgment of the journey so far, of it being worth it for the characters, what they have accomplished, lost and gained. 

And I believe this episode attempted that. But for one it was split in two parts:  there was the family angst with John and the concept of Lebanon and how they see the brothers part. The second probably was supposed to be the episode but then JDM became available and they changed it around. 

I believe they should have stuck to either. Make an episode about John`s return and make it more meaty in addressing things and attempting closure. Or make their Lebanon episode. This hybrid between both didn`t fit together as well. 

What-if-episodes aren`t necessarily bad but the concept of the changed timeline was just relegated to a few jokes, some cameos and some angst at the end.

They just put a soft filter over John because otherwise JDM obviously wasn`t going to come back, he made that clear. And I say that as someone who rolled my eyes when the show was deeply in its "Bobby was the true dad" phase. John in his appearances and stories about him was always both an asshole as well as a father who tried. Lebanon!John was some lollipop!version for the sake of making nice during the short time he was there. I get that noone was screaming and going for the jugular but if there was nothing to be had than shallow niceties, what was the point? It was angst for the sake of angst. 

If you skipped this episode, I reckon you miss nothing in the show and how the brothers are as characters. Zero. This was an aside gimmick.   

I hear you and can even agree somewhat.

It's just that I'm a sucker for good writing, and keep hoping for better even from Dabb and his cohorts.

Foolish me, eh?

[BabySpinach]

They just couldn't resist, could they? They just HAD to give something else of Dean's (Zachariah's kill) to Sam. At least this lame rehash, like all of Dean's poached wins gift-wrapped for Sam, will never be half as iconic or memorable as the original. You want to try and replicate Dean's awesome moments? Well, you'll have to settle for a fraction of the cool factor. Dems de rules.

John's return needed way more than 42 minutes to do proper justice to it. Things that weren't remotely addressed: Mary's reaction to John's shit parenting, AU Bobby, ADAM, John's responsibility for Dean's terrible self-worth issues, the revelation of Mary being a hunter before John was, and the fact that Dean had a FUCKING ARCHANGEL IN HIS HEAD THAT WHOLE TIME. 

Him kicking his sons' asses within two seconds annoyed me in the same vein as Kaia Sue's unrealistic takedowns. After all these years, the brothers shouldn't be that easy to beat up when it's just a regular human doing the beating, even if it is their dad. Also, mostly for my personal vindication, I wouldn't have minded them getting a few good licks in against Father of the Year.

Once again, Dean doesn't get to demand better for himself or call out others on their shitty treatment of him. Still no emotional catharsis for Dean, only Sam (and sometimes Cas). Another reason why this story should have taken place over multiple episodes. However, this did tie in with 14.05, another Glynn episode, when Dean advised Sasha to let go of her baggage with her dad. I guess we now know that he fully meant what he said, even though John certainly doesn't deserve it. 

Dean's flirty rapport with the post office lady was cute and most definitely Meredith Glynn's doing, since we now know that at least half of the showrunning duo can't possibly fathom how an affable, charming man who just happens to look like Jensen Ackles would be irresistible to pretty much anyone. *eyeroll*

I also loved Dean saying that he was happy with who he was. It was a nice bit of positive development, and further proof that his box plan is heroic and brave rather than recklessly suicidal. He actually does want to live and emphatically does NOT want to bury himself in a coffin forever, but is still willing to do so for the sake of the world. 

Jensen was reliably heartbreaking. He didn't get the biggest scenes, but his crying/nearly crying face gets me every time. Dean's vulnerability, whenever he deigns to show it, has a permanent express route straight to my heart. Hnngh! 

Fun fact, Jensen is now two years older than JDM was in season 1, and on a related note, the former looked especially exquisite in this episode. His big princess eyes and prominent eyelids monopolized my attention more than once. I genuinely think he looks better now than he ever did as a cherubic, teen-heartthrob type.

Ultimately, this was a way-overstuffed episode that couldn't properly develop any of its multiple plotlines within the allotted timeframe. The annoying teenagers subplot could (and should) have been cut out entirely. Douchey Sam and Fugitive Dean barely got a mention. Cas and Zachariah came and went with little impact. The Winchester family reunion really should have been the main, and only, focus. There were little moments I liked, but I found it pretty meh overall. 

By the way, has anyone actually, genuinely missed Jack in these past three episodes? I sure as hell haven't. If this isn't proof that he's utterly disposable when he isn't connected to the main story, I don't know what is. I can't even imagine what he would have contributed had he been present. Scrunchy Confused Face #452? Inane questions? Cutesy opinions? Ugh, good riddance!

[trudysmom]

I'm relieved to find that I'm not the only one who was underwhelmed by the episode.  There were a few bright moments, but it didn't live up to the hype.  I also found myself even more annoyed by Mary/Sam Smith than I already was. So she CAN feel, she CAN cry, she's not just a glassy- eyed, robotic person who comes and goes as she damn well pleases despite what her sons might need or want.   She lost the love of her life, and for that I felt sorry for her.  Aside from the boys dish-washing conversation, that's about all I felt. 

[Dobian]

Get out the Kleenex!

I wasn't disappointed in the episode at all.  And the ending was touching and well done.  As for the focus of this show being on Sam and Dean repeatedly saving the world ad nauseam, I have the same problem with that, but that is a larger issue with the show and not this one episode.

It as also great that the show was able to grab JDM away from TWD for this, and I can think of him as John Winchester again and not stupid Negan.

Edited February 9, 2019 by Dobian

[catrox14]

I did not care for this episode. The obvious emotional manipulation was too obvious.

There was terrible pacing and it clear that it went through rewrites. It felt like they shoved 3 different episodes into one.

The could have dumped all of the townspeople stuff and used that 15 minutes to expand John's return.
I thought the acting was too overblown and it felt like it was to actors crying and not the characters especially Sam Smith.

The only moment I liked was Dean telling A he's good with who he is and with who Sam is.

I will say this, I thought Dean flirting with the older female postal worker was OOC for Dean

And I could tell if that was her perspective of Dean, or and this is my swerve... It was Michael pretending to be Dean. And acting like he thinks Dean would act. And getting it wrong.

I hated Sam killing Zachariah, because it is IMO another Dean thing given to Sam. And it fuels my ongoing spec (no spoilers) that Dean is gonna be for real dunzo by the end of this season.

I didn't like that Dean was a wanted criminal in the altered  timeline without it being explained that Dean is wanted because of his hunting activities vs just being a criminal.

I really disliked that the reason John was sent back was spun because it would save Mary. Wasn't just saying they couldn't mess with time enough reason?

And sorry but the Samsplaining about paradox was stupid? Why wasn't Dean the one who could explain it since he has time traveled way more than anyone in the show not named angels or demons.

And Dean has now told John he loves him which is just another harbinger of doom for Dean for me.

So basically, this was a big ole nothingburger for me and gets a meh to sigh rating.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I didn't like that Dean was a wanted criminal in the altered  timeline without it being explained that Dean is wanted because of his hunting activities vs just being a criminal.

They actually did though it was very brief so easy to miss. 

But I agree with the obvious emotional manipulation of the episode. Maybe several years back, that still could have garnered a reaction from me regardless but these days they have to dig deeper than basically go "here, that`s sad, now go cry".  

I like frosting on a cake, I don`t like just frosting.

[Pondlass1]

It had to lack substance and torment because that’s what today’s fans seem to want, plus it’s a milestone episode and The CW is not HBO. I was expecting a sentimental overdose (similar to 200). And that’s exactly what we got.  As a show runner I would’ve added a grim reminder of Michael banging inside Dean’s head but this was obviously going to be a syrupy offering to appease fans.

So not too many complaints because I didn’t have expectations.  Except I don’t think anyone in the TV industry knows how real teens behave.  And stealing Baby?  Dean!! When are you going to ward your Baby so she is safe and protected?  You surely know how.

Instead of teens and a miscellaneous clown ghost, I’d much rather they’d spent the opening scenes with the brothers on the streets of Lebanon interacting with the inhabitants.  That would’ve been more entertaining and something we never see.  A day in the life kind of thing.  Maybe the boys trying on flannel to add to their collection?

The writers get themselves into pickles with timelines, etc., but I don’t let that bother me too much.  And a shout out to Jared – who’s spent much of his time this season looking down his nose and frowning and sighing – but not the past three episodes.  He done good.

Jensen, of course, pulls at our heartstrings every time. He allows us inside Dean.

A month hiatus will not bode well for ratings.  Jensen’s going to be acting his heart out as he rids himself of Michael – but no one will be watching I fear.

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Quote

They actually did though it was very brief so easy to miss.  

Ah. Thank you.

[Casseiopeia]

31 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

It had to lack substance and torment because that’s what today’s fans seem to want, plus it’s a milestone episode and The CW is not HBO. I was expecting a sentimental overdose (similar to 200). And that’s exactly what we got.  As a show runner I would’ve added a grim reminder of Michael banging inside Dean’s head but this was obviously going to be a syrupy offering to appease fans.

So not too many complaints because I didn’t have expectations.  Except I don’t think anyone in the TV industry knows how real teens behave.  And stealing Baby?  Dean!! When are you going to ward your Baby so she is safe and protected?  You surely know how.

Instead of teens and a miscellaneous clown ghost, I’d much rather they’d spent the opening scenes with the brothers on the streets of Lebanon interacting with the inhabitants.  That would’ve been more entertaining and something we never see.  A day in the life kind of thing.  Maybe the boys trying on flannel to add to their collection?

The writers get themselves into pickles with timelines, etc., but I don’t let that bother me too much.  And a shout out to Jared – who’s spent much of his time this season looking down his nose and frowning and sighing – but not the past three episodes.  He done good.

Jensen, of course, pulls at our heartstrings every time. He allows us inside Dean.

A month hiatus will not bode well for ratings.  Jensen’s going to be acting his heart out as he rids himself of Michael – but no one will be watching I fear.

Jared was nominated for performance of the month. You can only vote once and voting ends Monday

[juppschmitz]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

If you skipped this episode, I reckon you miss nothing in the show and how the brothers are as characters. Zero. This was an aside gimmick.   

This is so very true. What a waste.

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

Foolish me, eh?

Yep.

[juppschmitz]

1 hour ago, BabySpinach said:

I can't even imagine what he would have contributed had he been present. Scrunchy Confused Face #452? Inane questions? Cutesy opinions? Ugh, good riddance!

The writers said it themselves: "Dumb Bambi face."

[juppschmitz]

And Sam and Cas really, seriously didn't slap the archangel handcuffs on Dean and keep him in a ring of holy fire. Why? It's so stupid it's insulting. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

The writers said it themselves: "Dumb Bambi face."

That was probably the funniest line in the episode. So someone in the writing room is aware.  

[Casseiopeia]

Am I the only one that wants to know what happens if you pull the string?

Edited February 9, 2019 by Casseiopeia

[juppschmitz]

Neither was there a surprise at the end of the episode nor a mic drop moment for Dean. Or did I miss something?

(Sadly it wasn't revealed that Dean is not related to any of that lot. Oh well...)

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Neither was there a surprise at the end of the episode nor a mic drop moment for Dean. Or did I miss something?

I`m pretty sure the surprise was supposed to be John waking up in 2003 and recalling the events of the episode as a dream. And the "mic drop" line of Dean`s was supposed to be "I have a family". 

Both are why you should never put much stock in bloggers overhyping episodes or moments from them seeing screeners. That line really was no "mic drop" at all. 

And despite Dabb actually tweeting how he thinks this kinda retcons John`s character in Season 1 and pats himself on the back for it, um, no? It`s not like anything he says or does in Season 1 shows any awareness of future knowledge. This is at best headcanon. 

[Cambion]

9 hours ago, PinkChicken said:

Opinions: Did the Angel banishing not affect Dean because with him and Sam not hunting, the wish did in fact result in Michael never possessing him in the first place, and why did they never mention that when talking about pros and cons of the timeline (imo they didn't revert to the other Sam & Dean in any other way yet, so I think Michael should still have been there and change when Dean changes)? /or/ Would It not affect him if Michael was still there but locked in the Dean-cage anyway i.e. does the angel have to be at the wheel for it to work (the same as I assume wielding any powers or the angel blade would work)?

2

I thought about that a while back, if the  blood sigil to banish angels would work on Micheal, but then I realized that every other angel they used it on (including Cas) left them in their vessels.  So, there's no reason it would blast Michael out of Dean...also, when it worked, the angels, like you said, were at the wheel.  So I agree that Micheal being locked in the fridge isn't going to make the spell banish him.  Seems like the magic doesn't look that deep.  

[tennisgurl]

I admit, I got some full on feels out of this one. I much as I just cant with Daddy Winchester, he is clearly a major force in this show and its backstory, and seeing their whole family together did feel nice, and a good way to celebrate this most recent milestone. 

That being said, I wish we had gotten a different John, a later John. For one thing, no way did John ever act like he had been to the future, and knew all of this would kind of turn out alright, and this didnt really give Sam and Dean the closure that i think they really needed. They didnt have any hard conversations about how John raised them and how that messed them up, or even offer or receive true forgiveness, or even acknowledge that how he parented wasn't great, but they do in many ways appreciate what he prepared them for and still love him. It was nice, but basically shallow. 

Not even John and Mary had much closure, or real acknowledgement of what all happened. The actors did great when they reunited again, but I wanted to get more of their complicated history, and how she feels about what happened after she died, and what all was done in her name? Having a cute family dinner was nice and all, and you only have so much you can do in an hour, but I just left wanting more. Like we just barley scratched the surface of all of this family history and their complicated feelings for each other.

The beginning with the teens and the ghosts and stuff just seemed like filler.

I did love Sam as Steve Jobs, and the easter eggs were quite fun, and the actors were great as always. Jensen especially was great, especially when he first saw John again. and JDM reminded me that, as sick of him as I am on Walking Dead, he really is a good and likable actor when you give him something to actually do. There were a lot of good parts of this episode, but for such a big episode, I feel like we could have gotten more.

[AwesomO4000]

7 hours ago, Katy M said:

And, I just have one more thing. Did Cas forget that in order to kill humans, he merely had to place his hand on the forehad and make them go poof?  How were Sam and Dean even fighting them.  In Lucifer Rising, Dean punched Cas and hurt his hand and I don't think Cas even bothered turning his head.

I'm not sure that it explains everything, but if I remember correctly Dean was punching Castiel with something - a heavy object - in order to keep his hand from being hurt. I actually liked that little detail/nod to canon.

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

And sorry but the Samsplaining about paradox was stupid? Why wasn't Dean the one who could explain it since he has time traveled way more than anyone in the show not named angels or demons.

Because then we couldn't have Dean be on the side of family and getting a moment and Sam telling Dean that Dean was right about that. In my opinion, the point wasn't to explain the paradox, but to show that Dean was right to want his moment with family.

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I hated Sam killing Zachariah, because it is IMO another Dean thing given to Sam.

I don't think it really counts though, so there's that.  I can't necessarily say the same thing about the dish-washing moment. It sort of annoyed me that Dean had to give Sam the "our sacrifice matters" speech. Sam is well aware of that and it was his raison d'etre through most of season 6B through 7, in my opinion, and what he "relearned" in season 10. I'll leave it at that so as to avoid getting into "Bitch vs Jerk" territory.

7 hours ago, Bergamot said:

I did experience some strong emotions while watching, but I don't think that they were the "feels" that the episode was going for. For one thing, I passionately hate that Dabb is apparently determined to replace "Saving people, hunting things: the family business" with his own catchphrase: "We're the guys who save the world!". So instead of Dean's stated motivation, which goes back to the show's deepest roots -- "At least we can make sure that what happened to us doesn't happen to other families" -- we get a constant chirpy reiteration from the brothers of some version of "We're big heroes!"

I get your annoyance about the heroes thing,*** but I thought the show actually covered very well the "At least we can make sure that what happened to us doesn't happen to others" thing with Dean's kitchen / dish washing talk. Dean clearly stated that not going back and doing what they had done would be questionable, because what would that make them if they expected someone else to sacrifice in their stead. If Dean wants to acknowledge himself as a good person - a hero - for doing that, I' not going to begrudge him that, myself.

*** Though it bother me less mainly due to Firefly. I loved that line from the show ("What does that make us?" "Big Damn Heroes. Sir"), and don't mind heroes calling themselves such when it seems semi-appropriate.

[SueB]

What I posted on Tumblr while PTV was down:

“Lebanon” First Thoughts

Well that was nearly perfect. I’m going to start with a quick set of lists.

The AWESOME:
- Closure. Well written. Subtle. Personalized for each relationship. Very in character for everyone.
- JDM - when his face broke hearing Mary’s voice???!?!? Damn.
-Sam Smith. I’m bleeding here. Her happiness and pain was so palpable.
- Jared and Jensen’s acting. Again, perfect. They are so comfortable in these roles. All the nuances with their reactions.

The GREAT:
- John - still a bit of an asshole -implying that he would have though Dean would have had a family. And Dean claps back “I have a family.” I like that little bit I ginger in that exchange.
- Sam’s great regret about seeing John on the floor and not getting to say goodbye.
- Dean telling John while Sam told Mary. Good division of responsibilities. Of course John knew the trade was self-evident. And Mary was just DEVASTATED. I think it would have hurt Dean too much to tell her. And John would take the news from Dean better. I like the choice.
- The ‘pearl’ (of great price!). Good construct. Clean wrap up.
- The dishwashing conversation. Dean’s statement on closure. I PERSONALLY needed that. I can only imagine how much this experience has helped the boys.
- That Lebanon is ‘fuzzy’ to the angels.
- That TED talk! Hilarious and also a fate worse than death for Sammy (with both eating kale and no family).
-Serial Killer Ghost!!!! John Wayne Gacy to boot! Good stuff.

The merely GOOD:
-Lebanon. How adorable that Dean can charm the pants off the post lady. And Sam’s little younger brother exasperation. Well played.
-The Campbell brothers are a local legend/myth.
- Dean knows all the shop owners. Because of course he does.
- Dean playing with the dragon fire perfume.
- Dean mentioning the villain monologue trope.

The ‘meh’:
- Zach and Cas. While I loved seeing OG Cas, and Zach was in fine form, it was hard to see Cas beat up the boys. It had value in that it reminded us how much Cas had changed, and it did provide a skosh if energy and conflict — it wasn’t as awesome as the rest.
- The teens. Good to have young allies. But they were a little too stereotypical.

The ‘nope’:
- Sam killing Zachariah. Now I’d put that as merely ‘meh’ except for *edited* fandom anger over this relatively minor plot point. I get why BTW (that Sam killed Zachariah) — because they wanted Dean to be fighting/talking with Cas while Sam hit the angel-be-gone sigil.
- Random teen steals Baby? Nope nope nopity nope. How is Baby not warded from random theft. Dean needs to get on that.

In sum: LOVED IT. Rewatching again. Like now.

[catrox14]

42 minutes ago, SueB said:

The ‘nope’:
- Sam killing Zachariah. Now I’d put that as merely ‘meh’ except for *edited* fandom anger over this relatively minor plot point. I get why BTW (that Sam killed Zachariah) — because they wanted Dean to be fighting/talking with Cas while Sam hit the angel-be-gone sigil.

Are you noping it because of fandom reaction or because you didn't think it was necessary in the episode? Sorry I'm confursed.

[sarthaz]

All. The. Feels. Let's be honest, the writing on the show has mostly sucked for years, so standards are lower; but for as much crap as I give Dabb and his team for slowly ruining the show, I still LOVE this show. And this was a genuine effort to do something lovely. It's filled with problems, and I just don't care. I immediately forgave everything as soon as John heard Mary's voice. This was the best performance of Sam's career and one of the few times I've given a shit about Mary. I basically started crying the moment John and Mary reunited and didn't stop until the credits rolled. Certainly it was manipulative, but I care too much about these characters to not be moved.

[catrox14]

@SueB

ETA: Never mind. I read your comment more closely. I get it now! Thanks