S05.E05: It's a Girl

[Emmeline]

5 hours ago, sATL said:

Jeanette seemed to be totally grossed out emptying the urine bag.. Too bad they didn't show bedpan duty - the way Jazz was chowing down in the hospital - I was thinking -all of that food is going to have to come out.. hopefully without too much of a strain/push...

Plus I would assume they gave Jazz an Rx for a laxative.  Most pain meds can cause constipation and I would certainly think they wouldn’t want her to push at all.  

[mythoughtis]

6 hours ago, doodlebug said:

The ones I do are simple compared to what Jazz had, but, in every case, the patient and her family are taught the basics of care for the catheter, how to empty the bag, etc.  It is not complicated

My husband had prostrate surgery. He was sent home with a catheter. No one showed me a thing and I know I hurt him when I took off and replaced the bag. He ended up with complications and had that catheter for a week.  People are sent home way too soon these days.  His first two days at home were horrible on both of us. 

I had a hysterectomy and was due to go home the next day. Until an unknown a-fib condition sent me to the ICU while I was waiting on my discharge papers. Again, people are sent home way  too soon. 

Jazz is a case in point.  

[Visaman666]

17 hours ago, gingerella said:

Jazz refused to do the prep for skin expanders, it was one of the many reasons she kept doctor shopping until Dr. Bowers told her what she wanted to hear, IIRC. They used the skin from the peritoneum because it has a slippery quality and secretes moisture, much like a real vagina, at least that's what Dr. Bowers said.

Related to the issue of bait and switch where last week or the week before, when the team told Jazz and her family that there would likely be a second surgery...I dont think they were talking the same 'second surgery' as the other doctors that Jazz consulted were talking about. I think, IIRC, all the other doctors she consulted said the procedure would need to be done in at least two phases, I cant remember if expanders were one phase, or if it was something else, but I think the sexual reassignment surgery itself was to be in two surgeries. I think what Dr. Bowers and Dr. Ting were talking about was a follow up surgery to fine tune aesthetic qualities of the surgery, so it wasn't quite the same thing, IMO. That's what I thought they were referring to, but I could be wrong.

BTW, it was soooo nice to see and hear Jazz say THANK YOU SO MUCH to her parents right after her surgery. She seemed so appreciative, for once in her life, and it was  Noelle (who's waited too long and now has male physical attributes). 

Too long? Most pre-op transgendered people wait until they are in their 30s and some well into middle age or elder age.

[Visaman666]

16 hours ago, janey99 said:

I am left wondering how common medical tourism is in NYC and how often surgical patients are discharged from the hospital moments after surgery to go recuperate in a hotel room.  Are these specialty facilities that are actually associated with the various hospitals or regular hotels?  As a rule I try to not think about what happened in any hotel room before I got there, but I REALLY don't want to think that someone changed post operative surgical dressings in the bed or emptied and disposed of catheters and leg bags in the bathroom.  Those items are absolutely medical waste and may be biohazardous waste.  Standard hotel housekeeping is not qualified to clean rooms where these items might be left or dispose of them properly.

In Montreal, where ALL the surgeies in Canada are done, there is a post operative residence for patients. I suspect the same thing is done in New York.

[woodscommaelle]

Dr Ting's 'You look great' to Jazz on the second day (I think) was so totally genuine.  I never warmed to him until last night. 

As posted up thread, I CANNOT believe they left the hospital after Jazz felt like something tore as she was getting into the van.  Unreal.  You're AT the hospital! Go back inside!

Jeanette broke my heart last night. 

I wish I was as calm and level-headed as Greg.

Modern medicine is mind-blowingly amazing.

Ari had on a very cool ring that I need in my life.

ETA:  all that lox that Jazz didn't eat!  She just had a bagel with cream cheese.  One of my most favorite meals in the world is a bagel with lox and cream cheese.  The best.

Edited January 31, 2019 by woodscommaelle

[PrincessPurrsALot]

I too felt sorry for Jeanette.  This family has been on TV so long that they are usually a little too polished.  This is the way of reality TV.  The early stuff is more real.  Over time it becomes more groomed (and/or full on scripted). Jeanette's pain and fear was palpable.  What a crash from how happy Jazz was and they all were for her post surgery. 

I too was wondering where Ari was?  I thought they said she was staying with Jeanette and Jazz when everyone else went home.  I can understand them not all staying for the extended period, but I'll bet they felt horrible when they learned she had complications and they weren't there to support each other.  

I fully support Jeanette in not buying a $62 healing rock.  It's a rock.  It may be a pretty rock, but it's still a rock. 

Jazz being sent home/to a hotel so soon after surgery makes me think of a 78 year old friend who had cancer surgery. They wanted to send her home right away.  She had to argue that her daughter could not take off work to help her.  And her daughter is so squeamish she would never be able to change bandages and deal with drains, etc.  She got caught in a debate of "we can give you someone once a day, 5 days a week, but if you can find care for the two days they're not there then you don't qualify for help. Here are all of the things that need to be done daily."  I thought Jeanette did pretty well all things considered.  I saw no problems with her commenting that it was strange to be doing things things at this point in her daughter's life.  Diapers were a long time ago.  All the same, emptying a catheter collection is not a big deal.  And I assume Jazz could go to the toilet for bowel movements.  She would need to be careful of her tubing and really careful cleaning afterwards. But changing dressings, potentially helping her clean and seeing the stitches, etc. can be intense.   Many people cannot handle that.  They really could have used more help for those tasks. 

[possibilities]

7 hours ago, Visaman666 said:

Too long? Most pre-op transgendered people wait until they are in their 30s and some well into middle age or elder age.

I think the "too long" comment was referring not to surgery but to blockers, and that if you don't start blocking puberty early enough, you develop male physical characteristics (like bone structure) that can't be surgically changed later on.

[Honey]

Will Jazz need to use the dilator for the rest of her life?  Or will there be a point where she's healed, and the "wound" will not try to close.  Like when you have your ears pierced, and after awhile the hole doesn't close up.

[LennieBriscoe]

The answer:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_reassignment_surgery_(male-to-female)

[configdotsys]

Sorry if this TMI but a few months ago, due to cancer, I had my uterus, rectum and anus removed, and my behind was sewn closed in a NY hospital. This is known as having a Barbie Butt so I guess I'm a Barbie girl now which if you knew me would make you die laughing. In any case, the operation was about 10 1/2 hours. I was in the hospital for 7 days and if I did not feel ready to go home, they would have kept me another day but I could not wait to get home to my own bed. I would say that Jazz's surgery was way more complicated than mine was even though it was a couple of hours shorter and was absolutely shocked at how quickly she was released from the hospital. 

[Twopper]

6 hours ago, PrincessPurrsALot said:

I too was wondering where Ari was?  I thought they said she was staying with Jeanette and Jazz when everyone else went home.  I can understand them not all staying for the extended period, but I'll bet they felt horrible when they learned she had complications and they weren't there to support each other.  

I mentioned this earlier, but now that I think about it I may have an answer.  I think the clock showed Dr Ting arriving around 5:30 am.  Not sure when sunrise is that time of year, but I think it was daylight when they helped her to the van.  I would guess Dr Ting was there for maybe 10-15 minutes and it probably took another 15 minutes to gather Jazz up, call for the van and get her loaded.  Meanwhile I think Ari was asleep in another room.  Jeanette was probably in too much of a hurry to call her until she got Jazz to the hospital and off to the OR.  If she did call her before leaving the hotel, I doubt Ari had time to meet them at the van and go with Jazz.     I think Ari came over as soon as she could after being notified.  

[Natalie68]

18 minutes ago, configdotsys said:

Sorry if this TMI but a few months ago, due to cancer, I had my uterus, rectum and anus removed, and my behind was sewn closed in a NY hospital. This is known as having a Barbie Butt so I guess I'm a Barbie girl now which if you knew me would make you die laughing. In any case, the operation was about 10 1/2 hours. I was in the hospital for 7 days and if I did not feel ready to go home, they would have kept me another day but I could not wait to get home to my own bed. I would say that Jazz's surgery was way more complicated than mine was even though it was a couple of hours shorter and was absolutely shocked at how quickly she was released from the hospital. 

That sounds really intense!  I wish you good health!

[Twopper]

1 hour ago, configdotsys said:

Sorry if this TMI but a few months ago, due to cancer, I had my uterus, rectum and anus removed, and my behind was sewn closed in a NY hospital. This is known as having a Barbie Butt so I guess I'm a Barbie girl now which if you knew me would make you die laughing. In any case, the operation was about 10 1/2 hours. I was in the hospital for 7 days and if I did not feel ready to go home, they would have kept me another day but I could not wait to get home to my own bed. I would say that Jazz's surgery was way more complicated than mine was even though it was a couple of hours shorter and was absolutely shocked at how quickly she was released from the hospital. 

Her surgery may have been more complicated and novel,  but Dr Ting remarked that he expected faster/better healing with Jazz due to her youth.   I apologize if you are 18, too.  I hope your surgery, as horrid as it sounds, got all the cancer and you will spend the rest of your life cancer free.

[configdotsys]

25 minutes ago, Twopper said:

Her surgery may have been more complicated and novel,  but Dr Ting remarked that he expected faster/better healing with Jazz due to her youth.   I apologize if you are 18, too.  I hope your surgery, as horrid as it sounds, got all the cancer and you will spend the rest of your life cancer free.

Oh to be 18 again.... alas, I'm just north of 50. :) Thanks for the good wishes. Thankfully, all went well. I had no pain afterwards though things felt weird down there for a while and have some residual annoyances but hey, I'm still here and that's what it's all about! :) I'll know in early March if I'm okay to resume having a life.

I had thought when they were speaking about all the tension that that would be closely monitored and that maybe even Jazz would be sort of immobilized in some way if a sudden movement or moving the wrong way could cause something to snap.

[Scarlett45]

@configdotsys healing to you!

Jazz has been through a lot, and complications happen, but I wouldn’t wish pain on anyone. 

[Yeah No]

I'm happy for Jazz but agree with those above about her being an entitled diva.  She's very self-centered.  I hope that in the future as she matures she focuses on helping others like her that need support in going through with this surgery.  But in the meantime she really bugs me, I can't help it.  She has a lot to learn about what it means to be a woman, from basic anatomy to other more subtle non-physical things.  I suppose she's who she is, but I still see aspects of a teenage boy in her.  Maybe she'll lose that in time as she matures and grows into womanhood.  Her sister is so typically female by comparison.  Jazz has an uncouth arrogance that her other siblings don't have. It's not even about femininity.  I have certainly not expected other women to be feminine, just who they are.  Maybe it's her lack of manners, maturity or sophistication or something else that bugs me so much.  I haven't felt that way about other transgendered people, just her.

[MsTree]

50 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

I'm happy for Jazz but agree with those above about her being an entitled diva.  She's very self-centered.  I hope that in the future as she matures she focuses on helping others like her that need support in going through with this surgery.  But in the meantime she really bugs me, I can't help it.  She has a lot to learn about what it means to be a woman, from basic anatomy to other more subtle non-physical things.  I suppose she's who she is, but I still see aspects of a teenage boy in her.  Maybe she'll lose that in time as she matures and grows into womanhood.  Her sister is so typically female by comparison.  Jazz has an uncouth arrogance that her other siblings don't have. It's not even about femininity.  I have certainly not expected other women to be feminine, just who they are.  Maybe it's her lack of manners, maturity or sophistication or something else that bugs me so much.  I haven't felt that way about other transgendered people, just her.

Perhaps her behavior has something to do with never reaching puberty? If so, will she (and some of those behaviors) ever mature?

[LennieBriscoe]

configdotsys, Best of health to you henceforth! Your resilience humbles me. 

[doodlebug]

14 hours ago, configdotsys said:

Sorry if this TMI but a few months ago, due to cancer, I had my uterus, rectum and anus removed, and my behind was sewn closed in a NY hospital. This is known as having a Barbie Butt so I guess I'm a Barbie girl now which if you knew me would make you die laughing. In any case, the operation was about 10 1/2 hours. I was in the hospital for 7 days and if I did not feel ready to go home, they would have kept me another day but I could not wait to get home to my own bed. I would say that Jazz's surgery was way more complicated than mine was even though it was a couple of hours shorter and was absolutely shocked at how quickly she was released from the hospital. 

Best of luck to you, that is a LOT of surgery.  In Jazz' case, she is much younger and presumably in better physical condition overall than you.  Also, while her surgery was very extensive, it was certainly not more physically demanding than yours.  Jazz didn't have cancer, either.  The removal of part of your bowel and the need to construct a new 'exit' for waste makes your surgery at high risk for infection as well as meaning that there was a period during which time your bowels wouldn't be functioning and you'd need to be given fluids and possibly nourishment via IV's and such.  Waiting for the bowel to open up and function again is probably the main reason you were in the hospital that long, and why Jazz wasn't.

I know everyone is concerned about how quickly Jazz was released and, yes, cost is a factor, but there have been many, many good studies on postoperative length of stay which demonstrate that sending people home sooner actually results in fewer complications, not more.  While the show kind of implied that Jazz' postop issues were because she was jostled when she was released or something, it was really something that happens on its own in most cases and, if her stitches weren't secure enough to handle that, they simply weren't secure enough.  The 'tension' in the suture lines in plastic surgery where areas have limited blood supply because there is new tissue being brought into the area is a big worry in all cases.  Postoperatively, there is always some swelling at the operative site and that is what causes the suture line to be stretched tight which can sometimes disrupt the limited blood supply and lead to death of the grafted tissue (necrosis).  When surgeons are working with limited amounts of tissue as they were in Jazz' case, it is inevitable that there is going to be some tension along the suture line.  How much is too much?  A lot of times the only way to know is for the surgeon to do the best they can with what they've got and wait and see.  I am sure that they hoped Jazz' age and health would let them get away with more than if she were older or had medical issues, but stuff happens and it is unavoidable that sometimes grafted tissue when put under tension, will not get enough blood flow and the tissue will deteriorate, causing the stitches to pull away and the wound to open.  Jazz could've stayed in the hospital a month and it still would've happened most likely. 

Edited February 1, 2019 by doodlebug

[configdotsys]

2 hours ago, doodlebug said:

Best of luck to you, that is a LOT of surgery.  In Jazz' case, she is much younger and presumably in better physical condition overall than you.  Also, while her surgery was very extensive, it was certainly not more physically demanding than yours.  Jazz didn't have cancer, either.  The removal of part of your bowel and the need to construct a new 'exit' for waste makes your surgery at high risk for infection as well as meaning that there was a period during which time your bowels wouldn't be functioning and you'd need to be given fluids and possibly nourishment via IV's and such.  Waiting for the bowel to open up and function again is probably the main reason you were in the hospital that long, and why Jazz wasn't.

I know everyone is concerned about how quickly Jazz was released and, yes, cost is a factor, but there have been many, many good studies on postoperative length of stay which demonstrate that sending people home sooner actually results in fewer complications, not more.  While the show kind of implied that Jazz' postop issues were because she was jostled when she was released or something, it was really something that happens on its own in most cases and, if her stitches weren't secure enough to handle that, they simply weren't secure enough.  The 'tension' in the suture lines in plastic surgery where areas have limited blood supply because there is new tissue being brought into the area is a big worry in all cases.  Postoperatively, there is always some swelling at the operative site and that is what causes the suture line to be stretched tight which can sometimes disrupt the limited blood supply and lead to death of the grafted tissue (necrosis).  When surgeons are working with limited amounts of tissue as they were in Jazz' case, it is inevitable that there is going to be some tension along the suture line.  How much is too much?  A lot of times the only way to know is for the surgeon to do the best they can with what they've got and wait and see.  I am sure that they hoped Jazz' age and health would let them get away with more than if she were older or had medical issues, but stuff happens and it is unavoidable that sometimes grafted tissue when put under tension, will not get enough blood flow and the tissue will deteriorate, causing the stitches to pull away and the wound to open.  Jazz could've stayed in the hospital a month and it still would've happened most likely. 

Thanks for the great, informative post. Just a quick note on me: I had emergency surgery a year ago when diagnosed and got a colostomy so when this recent surgery happened, I already had the new exit and was acclimated to the appliance. That helped tremendously as bowels were functioning fine post-op. 

So will Jazz have to be laid up for a while with no real physical activity once she gets home? I worry that if they go home and she has complications or some type of issue, the local hospitals/doctors may not be equipped to deal with that. That would really concern me.

[aliya]

23 hours ago, Honey said:

Will Jazz need to use the dilator for the rest of her life?  Or will there be a point where she's healed, and the "wound" will not try to close.  Like when you have your ears pierced, and after awhile the hole doesn't close up.

Yup. I saw a video of a person who said it had become such a pain to deal with the daily dilation that she went back to having anal sex. Depending on what community a person is most involved in and their previous sexual history, I can see where that would be an option. I'm sorry that they didn't wait a little longer for Jazz's surgery and that she doesn't have any experiences which would help her decide if she really wanted the surgery or at the very least, if she really wanted it right now. 

[Twopper]

1 hour ago, configdotsys said:

So will Jazz have to be laid up for a while with no real physical activity once she gets home? I worry that if they go home and she has complications or some type of issue, the local hospitals/doctors may not be equipped to deal with that. That would really concern me.

I think that is part of the reason that the doctor told them that they would have to stay in NYC longer than originally planned.  They live somewhere in south Florida where there are a number of surgeons who do this type of surgery.  I expect Dr B's discharge papers will list where to go and whom to call in an emergency after they are home  (I would hope it wouldn't include the Drs who told her he couldn't do what she wanted).    She will probably gain those 30 pounds back if she isn't careful.

[gingerella]

4 hours ago, aliya said:

Yup. I saw a video of a person who said it had become such a pain to deal with the daily dilation that she went back to having anal sex. Depending on what community a person is most involved in and their previous sexual history, I can see where that would be an option.

If you read the Educational thread you will note that we have a transgender poster, @J. Matazz, here who has been extremely gracious in helping to provide correct and factual answers to our cis questions. You can ask her literally anything, no matter how graphic or personal and she's been wonderful about sharing her personal experience. She has actually gone through gender reassignment surgery and IIRC was also a patient of Dr. Bowers so knows firsthand what Jazz's process has and will be. She was already asked about daily dilation, and said that she's far enough out from the surgery date that she now dilates once a week or so. So it isn't necessarily daily.

4 hours ago, aliya said:

I'm sorry that they didn't wait a little longer for Jazz's surgery and that she doesn't have any experiences which would help her decide if she really wanted the surgery or at the very least, if she really wanted it right now. 

I'm not sure why people keep saying this, but it seems pretty clear if you've watched the entire series from S01E01, that Jazz has wanted gender reassignment surgery since she could verbalize it. The only bone of contention among some of us here has been that she probably should have followed doctors suggestions about exploring orgasms before the surgery (because they said it would help ensure she could do so after surgery), and that she waited until she turned 18 and did this the summer between HS and college. But Jazz is Jazz and she gets whatever she wants so...she did it before having an orgasm (or at least that's what we've been led to believe on the show) and when she was 17, having the summer between junior and senior year in HS to recoup. But waiting longer so she was sure about the surgery? No. She's wanted the surgery since she could express it with words.

Edited February 1, 2019 by gingerella

[doodlebug]

1 hour ago, aliya said:

Yup. I saw a video of a person who said it had become such a pain to deal with the daily dilation that she went back to having anal sex. Depending on what community a person is most involved in and their previous sexual history, I can see where that would be an option. I'm sorry that they didn't wait a little longer for Jazz's surgery and that she doesn't have any experiences which would help her decide if she really wanted the surgery or at the very least, if she really wanted it right now. 

Based on what we've seen on the show, Jazz was very motivated to have the surgery ASAP and didn't want to wait.  I am sure she was given all of the pertinent information, but it didn't change her mind.  She didn't want to wait, wasn't going to wait, was raising holy hell with her parents when they suggested waiting.  Not everyone who has the surgery has plans to use their neovagina for intercourse.  Even if Jazz never has intercourse with a male partner, she could simply want a vagina anyway for her own reasons, her own peace of mind.

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, doodlebug said:

Based on what we've seen on the show, Jazz was very motivated to have the surgery ASAP and didn't want to wait.  I am sure she was given all of the pertinent information, but it didn't change her mind.  She didn't want to wait, wasn't going to wait, was raising holy hell with her parents when they suggested waiting.  Not everyone who has the surgery has plans to use their neovagina for intercourse.  Even if Jazz never has intercourse with a male partner, she could simply want a vagina anyway for her own reasons, her own peace of mind.

Exactly!!!!!! (Bolding mine)The purpose of gender confirming surgery isn’t exclusive to having certain types of sex, or even the primary purpose. 

Jazz is a lot of things but I never got the impression that this surgery was about her ability to perform a certain type of partnered sex. It’s about how she feels about herself. 

[J. Matazz]

On 1/30/2019 at 10:28 PM, Emmeline said:

Plus I would assume they gave Jazz an Rx for a laxative.  Most pain meds can cause constipation and I would certainly think they wouldn’t want her to push at all.  

To the letter. They gave me personally these nice easy swallowable with water red pills that tasted like a cinnamon mint. Actually liked them. The reason, as you stated, was to ensure no pops of results, stitches, or heaven forbid, a vaginal prolapse/falling out entirely.

 

On 1/31/2019 at 6:32 AM, Visaman666 said:

In Montreal, where ALL the surgeies in Canada are done, there is a post operative residence for patients. I suspect the same thing is done in New York.

Ah, sadly, no. Most in the USA don't have such an option, although Dr. Christine McGinn in Upper Bucks, Pennsylvania, has the butterfly (recovery) house, the closest there is to Dr. Brassard's Asclépiade. We mostly are told to stay in hotels. 

If you notice last season in particular (I believe?) during the Dr. Bowers consult, they stayed in the Staybridge in San Bruno, suggested for many reasons, where I stayed after my surgery for about 10 days, where Dr. Bowers covers the costs if your surgery isn't covered by insurance. Love it for a few reasons: One, it's got free dinner on Tuesdays and Wednesdays, which is nice for ease of access. More importantly, they also have a free, on-demand shuttle to and from both Dr. Bowers' medical office in San Mateo AND the same for the Mills-Peninsula hospital in Burlingame, where the surgery takes place. Saving time and money. Got to love that, right? Sadly, the shuttles aren't even an option at most locations.

 

And yeah, just as a general practice, I think people are released too early from surgery, both here and my own: In my case, May 13th surgery, released on the 16th. I was supposed to be out with a walker, going around the hospital floor the day or two days my surgery, and was barely able to. Pair that with my blood pressure was almost (not quite, hit like 70 something over mid 50s?) dangerously low for my general survival, to the point where the guest I had visiting me concerned with my care. With Dr. Bowers in Seattle to see family, we couldn't get hold of her. TLC would've had a field day. So I get released, my family calls the shuttle to go back to the hotel. My freaking heart broke for Jazz way early on this show for this reason.The wheelchair ride was relaxing on the way down the elevator, into the lobby. We wait 20-30 minutes chatting with the nurse about how atrocious the pricing is in Burlingame. So in I go to the shuttle, no wheelchair. DAMN that hurts. Did I pop something from this movement!?

 

I had to do a double take on reflection when Jazz said basically the same thing, because you hate to see anyone experience the same pain you have, at any point, for whatever reason, you know?

On 1/31/2019 at 2:42 PM, Honey said:

Will Jazz need to use the dilator for the rest of her life?  Or will there be a point where she's healed, and the "wound" will not try to close.  Like when you have your ears pierced, and after awhile the hole doesn't close up.

I hated, hated that the show used the term wound so much. Medically accurate, admittedly, but it really feels undermining to the surgery and my body.

 

As for dilation, eventually it gets to the point where it only has to be like one 15 minute session every week, which is entirely reasonable. So yeah, a lifetime commitment but not terribly inconvenient by frequency and/or length.

12 hours ago, gingerella said:

If you read the Educational thread you will note that we have a transgender poster, @J. Matazz, here who has been extremely gracious in helping to provide correct and factual answers to our cis questions. You can ask her literally anything, no matter how graphic or personal and she's been wonderful about sharing her personal experience. She has actually gone through gender reassignment surgery and IIRC was also a patient of Dr. Bowers so knows firsthand what Jazz's process has and will be. She was already asked about daily dilation, and said that she's far enough out from the surgery date that she now dilates once a week or so. So it isn't necessarily daily.

I'm not sure why people keep saying this, but it seems pretty clear if you've watched the entire series from S01E01, that Jazz has wanted gender reassignment surgery since she could verbalize it. The only bone of contention among some of us here has been that she probably should have followed doctors suggestions about exploring orgasms before the surgery (because they said it would help ensure she could do so after surgery), and that she waited until she turned 18 and did this the summer between HS and college. But Jazz is Jazz and she gets whatever she wants so...she did it before having an orgasm (or at least that's what we've been led to believe on the show) and when she was 17, having the summer between junior and senior year in HS to recoup. But waiting longer so she was sure about the surgery? No. She's wanted the surgery since she could express it with words.

Thanks much for the ringing endorsement! This is all true. Anything is fair game. Frequency is right, doctor is too. Anything you want to do to learn, I want to teach.

 

And yeah, surgery was an absolute must. ASAP. It's something you just know about yourself, like your hair color, your favorite food (although I'm not sure there, hm), or where you live. Delaying further would've had tremendously negative consequences, psychologically.

11 hours ago, doodlebug said:

Based on what we've seen on the show, Jazz was very motivated to have the surgery ASAP and didn't want to wait.  I am sure she was given all of the pertinent information, but it didn't change her mind.  She didn't want to wait, wasn't going to wait, was raising holy hell with her parents when they suggested waiting.  Not everyone who has the surgery has plans to use their neovagina for intercourse.  Even if Jazz never has intercourse with a male partner, she could simply want a vagina anyway for her own reasons, her own peace of mind.

Beautiful. I haven't used mine for that other purpose yet, but the primary purpose, day to day, is to have that self peace. That what was wrong is right, and there can be a modicum of previously unknown balance in the world regarding the body. The mentality truly is that, short of being born with the right body, surgery would've been best done yesterday, today is too late. For me, this was life or death.

 

---

My goodness, Jeanette was an absolute saint this episode in particular, even when the surgery results appeared to be sans complications. For comparison, my family flew back home the day after I got back to the hotel, post-hospital release. Jeanette gave an insane amount of devotion given then, let alone when a medical emergency arose.  All things considered, staying that relatively calm feels personally nigh impossible. I freaked the fuck out about a flight out to SFO when I couldn't dilate past an inch without massive bleeding from the vaginal canal on my birthday, a few weeks out of surgery.

Do find it interesting to hear Dr. Bowers' remarks on the depth, of women don't compare. Yeah, that's true, and it's why I put it third behind appearance and sensation. At the same time, for whatever it's worth, as I got measured much the same way Jazz did, she was freaking stunned, and said I could date a member of the 49ers given my depth, hehe. 

On 1/30/2019 at 5:19 PM, sATL said:

Let me ask this...is a women supposed to know what her "vaginal depth" ? I take it is measured and recorded at our yearly appt ?

If you are born with labia majora and minora, a vagina, etc. the depth is malleable given the nature of the skin. So, no, it doesn't matter then, in most cases, although I can think of at least one notable exception offhand where it would matter: MRKH Syndrome.

For someone like Jazz or myself? Absolutely this matters! The skin used to line the canal is not stretchy, so not afforded such an opportunity to adjust to an inserted penis length. Don't want to damage the body from too big, you know? But the only time I've been medically measured there was at that post op appointment. Beyond that, you do it yourself, which is the purposes not the indented white dots on the dilators, to ensure at least as many go inside as before, ensuring no depth loss.

One thing the show didn't mention, not technically directly related to surgery: Dr. Bowers has a wait list of about 3 years from booking time to operation date, from her popularity. Seemingly both Jazz and I were extremely fortunate to have that wait time cut down materiality for media reasons (hers for the show, mine for a mix of what I fought for on a states level/expiring insurance that August).

Edited February 2, 2019 by J. Matazz

[PrincessPurrsALot]

Folks,

A brief reminder about Jazz. She was never a boy regardless of any behaviors we may think of as gendered. She was, is and always will be a girl/woman.  

[Honey]

Jazz must have been the only teenager in the world who refused to masterbate.  Why the refusal to orgasm?

[TwirlyGirly]

3 hours ago, Honey said:

Jazz must have been the only teenager in the world who refused to masterbate.  Why the refusal to orgasm?

Probably because she's a girl, but had boy genitalia. I suspect the idea of touching "boy parts" really icked her out. (And think about it; it would be virtually impossible to get aroused if that were the case anyway).

[Zuleikha]

Isn't it because masturbation would have forced her to engage with body parts that exacerbate her dysphoria? Also, since Jazz's puberty was blocked so early, maybe she doesn't have much active desire. She certainly comes across as not having much active desire or sense of her sexual identity.

It does concern me, though. I read an article that, if accurate, said there isn't actually a lot of research or monitoring of how the combination of puberty blockers/medical transition affects people's ability to orgasm. This seems like a big deal to me, and I was surprised by how blithe some of the gender specialists quoted in the article were about the issue. I don't see how Jazz can be making truly informed decisions about how to medically transition her body if she doesn't actually know what tradeoffs she's making.

I don't know what the solution is, though. It seems to me like competent therapy should give Jazz the tools to explore her sexual desires/comfort despite the dysphoria, but maybe those tools just don't exist. 

[kicotan]

4 hours ago, Honey said:

Jazz must have been the only teenager in the world who refused to masterbate.  Why the refusal to orgasm?

I would hazard a guess that blocking puberty might have something to do with it.  Puberty doesn’t naturally happen to everyone at the same age.  Some young women get their periods at 11, others don’t get it until they are 16 and every age in between.  It also doesn’t just affect us physically, there’s a mental component to it as well.  If one is hormonally blocked from puberty, the genitalia isn’t the only thing that ends up not advancing in sexual maturity.  Even those of us that didn’t purposefully block puberty don’t have identical turn-ons/offs or experience the same level of mental/emotional impulse of sexual desire as teenagers.  Some chicks wait to engage in anything sexual, including masturbation, until they are 30 and married without batting an eyelash.  Some just don’t hold out that long no matter how hard they might try and there are even some who don’t give a crap about social conventions of “appropriate” age or marital status and enthusiastically engage in masturbation and consensual sex as a teenager.  Regardless of stereotypes, experiencing puberty is highly individual.

Plus, not every woman has to masturbate to achieve orgasm, some do so spontaneously.  Ever heard of Persistent Genital Arousal Disorder?

“...Persistent genital arousal disorder (PGAD) is a phenomenon, in which afflicted women experience spontaneous genital arousal, unresolved by orgasms and triggered by sexual or nonsexual stimuli, eliciting stress...”

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4980903/

[kicotan]

On 2/1/2019 at 3:51 PM, J. Matazz said:

If you are born with labia majora and minora, a vagina, etc. the depth is malleable given the nature of the skin. So, no, it doesn't matter then, in most cases, although I can think of at least one notable exception offhand where it would matter: MRKH Syndrome.

There is another situation where it might be of concern.  Diethylstilbestrol exposure in utero.

“...DES is a potent teratogen, and prenatal DES exposure can disrupt the differentiation of estrogen target organs, mainly the reproductive organs.  DES is known to have adverse consequences including clear cell adenocarcinoma of the vagina or cervix and genital tract abnormalities such as transverse cervical and vaginal ridges, vaginal adenosis, and hypoplastic and “T-shaped” uterus...Between 1947 and 1971, the synthetic estrogen diethylstilbestrol (DES) was prescribed to pregnant women to prevent spontaneous abortions. Many studies have demonstrated adverse consequences of prenatal DES exposure. This report describes a DES daughter treated for uterine cancer who presented with a foreshortened vagina of 4 cm and stage III pelvic organ prolapse. She underwent successful vaginal native tissue reconstructive surgery with uterosacral colpopexy and anterior and posterior repair to lengthen her vagina and treat her prolapse. She then developed stress incontinence and underwent periurethral bulking 5 months later. She has been followed for 2 years with no recurrence of prolapse or incontinence...”

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5468016/

[Granny58]

On 1/31/2019 at 9:11 PM, configdotsys said:

Oh to be 18 again.... alas, I'm just north of 50. :) Thanks for the good wishes. Thankfully, all went well. I had no pain afterwards though things felt weird down there for a while and have some residual annoyances but hey, I'm still here and that's what it's all about! :) I'll know in early March if I'm okay to resume having a life.

I had thought when they were speaking about all the tension that that would be closely monitored and that maybe even Jazz would be sort of immobilized in some way if a sudden movement or moving the wrong way could cause something to snap.

you have always had the best attitude in your comments!  You are an amazing person.

[possibilities]

Wasn't Jazz taking estrogen? She certainly looks like a post-pubescent girl. It was MALE puberty that was blocked, not ALL puberty. I take Jazz at her word when she says the reason she didn't want to masturbate or engage in intimate physical behavior with another person is "because I have a dick" (her words) and that it was too upsetting to her to deal with that directly.

Also, I think we'd need a wider sample than just Jazz, to come to any conclusions about how trans people in general experience their sexuality, and whether testosterone blockers block desire.

[doodlebug]

4 hours ago, possibilities said:

Wasn't Jazz taking estrogen? She certainly looks like a post-pubescent girl. It was MALE puberty that was blocked, not ALL puberty. I take Jazz at her word when she says the reason she didn't want to masturbate or engage in intimate physical behavior with another person is "because I have a dick" (her words) and that it was too upsetting to her to deal with that directly.

Also, I think we'd need a wider sample than just Jazz, to come to any conclusions about how trans people in general experience their sexuality, and whether testosterone blockers block desire.

Jazz was eventually placed on estrogen which certainly helps the breasts and hips to develop in puberty in women.  However, estrogen doesn't seem to play as large a role in libido as does testosterone.  Obviously, in Jazz' case, preventing the negative effects of testosterone was more important than worrying about her sexual desires at that point, but it was part of the trade-off made at that point.  You're right, though, Jazz may have found it distasteful to consider masturbating while she still had male genitalia.  A big part of our libido happens right between our ears, after all.  Now that she has had gender confirming surgery, she may find herself more interested in seeing how things work.

 

23 hours ago, kicotan said:

There is another situation where it might be of concern.  Diethylstilbestrol exposure in utero.

“...DES is a potent teratogen, and prenatal DES exposure can disrupt the differentiation of estrogen target organs, mainly the reproductive organs.  DES is known to have adverse consequences including clear cell adenocarcinoma of the vagina or cervix and genital tract abnormalities such as transverse cervical and vaginal ridges, vaginal adenosis, and hypoplastic and “T-shaped” uterus...Between 1947 and 1971, the synthetic estrogen diethylstilbestrol (DES) was prescribed to pregnant women to prevent spontaneous abortions. Many studies have demonstrated adverse consequences of prenatal DES exposure. This report describes a DES daughter treated for uterine cancer who presented with a foreshortened vagina of 4 cm and stage III pelvic organ prolapse. She underwent successful vaginal native tissue reconstructive surgery with uterosacral colpopexy and anterior and posterior repair to lengthen her vagina and treat her prolapse. She then developed stress incontinence and underwent periurethral bulking 5 months later. She has been followed for 2 years with no recurrence of prolapse or incontinence...”

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5468016/

DES was originally thought to prevent miscarriage and premature labor and was given to pregnant women for this.  However, starting in the 1950's, research came out showing that it did neither of these things and, by the early 1960's, its use in pregnancy was very rare in the US although it wasn't until the early 1970's that the FDA came out with a statement that it caused an unusual cervical/vaginal cancer (clear cell adenocarcinoma) in young women who were exposed in utero which pretty much ended any occasional use in pregnancy in this country.  In any event, even the youngest DES daughters are now well into their 40's and most are over 60, so we don't see uterine anomalies caused by it in reproductive age women these days.

DES is still available in this country because it can be used to manage advanced prostate cancer and sometimes breast cancer.

Edited February 4, 2019 by doodlebug

[kicotan]

13 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

DES was originally thought to prevent miscarriage and premature labor and was given to pregnant women for this.  However, starting in the 1950's, research came out showing that it did neither of these things and, by the early 1960's, its use in pregnancy was very rare in the US although it wasn't until the early 1970's that the FDA came out with a statement that it caused an unusual cervical/vaginal cancer (clear cell adenocarcinoma) in young women who were exposed in utero which pretty much ended any occasional use in pregnancy in this country.  In any event, even the youngest DES daughters are now well into their 40's and most are well past 50, so we don't see uterine anomalies caused by it in reproductive age women these days.

My brother and I were DES babies in 1963 and 1966.  It was still prescribed by some doctors for pregnant women past 1971.  The either didn’t get the memo or didn’t believe it was harmful so they kept on prescribing it. Some pediatricians in Australia didn’t stop prescribing it to girls they deemed “too tall” until 1975.  It was also included in some prenatal vitamins that required no prescription.  The FDA didn’t get around to officially withdrawing it’s approval for use in pregnant women until 2000.  Studies have been and are being conducted on 3rd generation’s (sons and daughters of those exposed to DES in utero) reproductive systems.

Granted, these days it would be a rare thing to see the kind of structural abnormalities DES passed along, but we really don’t know how many were exposed nor the extent of it’s reach to the 3rd generation.

[Tielsmomma]

On 1/30/2019 at 2:01 PM, janey99 said:

I am left wondering how common medical tourism is in NYC and how often surgical patients are discharged from the hospital moments after surgery to go recuperate in a hotel room.  Are these specialty facilities that are actually associated with the various hospitals or regular hotels?  As a rule I try to not think about what happened in any hotel room before I got there, but I REALLY don't want to think that someone changed post operative surgical dressings in the bed or emptied and disposed of catheters and leg bags in the bathroom.  Those items are absolutely medical waste and may be biohazardous waste.  Standard hotel housekeeping is not qualified to clean rooms where these items might be left or dispose of them properly.

I thought that as well.  Jazz really should have gone into a skilled nursing facility or something similar.   A hotel room?  Eww?!  

[Bridget]

On 1/30/2019 at 2:58 AM, sATL said:

who is the man in the middle ?

And more importantly why is he sitting in b/w the parents whose child is operated on, in the waiting room ? Surely there was another spot for him to sit. I thought that was a little intensive of him.

 

I assumed the guy in the middle is Jeanette's brother because he's the spitting image of Grandpa Jack.

Based on Jeanette's accent, coupled with the fact that we know her parents are from NY, I wouldn't be surprised if any of Jeanette's siblings live and work in NY.

Perhaps he prefers to remain in the shadows or stay semi-anonymous for a variety of reasons? There wasn't a caption on the screen to identify him to viewers, but a non-blurred face suggests that he's someone important enough to be at the hospital on surgery day. (Also, because it can’t be said enough: he is Grandpa Jack’s doppelgänger!)

Edited February 6, 2019 by Bridget