The Buffy Characters We Can't Stand

[Spartan Girl]

As always in the Whedonverse, there are definitely some characters that we hate, but every time we let out our scorn in threads, it always starts a huge debate over motives and attitudes, etc, because some of the characters we hate are ones other characters absolutely love.  Not that there's anything wrong with that: everyone is welcome to their own opinion. 

 

But I thought I'd start a thread that allows us to unleash our utmost scorn for Buffy characters we hate, without judgments or debates.  Shall we begin?

 

For a warm-up, I never liked Riley.  For the only "nice normal" serious boyfriend Buffy ever had, he came off as insecure and aggressive when it came to the fact that Buffy was stronger than him.  And when Buffy didn't lean on him or grieve the way he wanted her to, he goes around and cheats on her with vampires.  Then he has the nerve to issue the "we work this out or I'm leaving" ultimatum.  Real nice.

 

And then there's Xander.  There are a million reasons why I can't stand him.  His immaturity.  His tendency to put Buffy on a pedestal and then verbally eviscerate her when she makes mistakes.  Getting Amy to cast the love spell on Cordelia with the sole purpose of just breaking her heart.  Him finally noticing Willow only when she was with Oz and cheating on Cordelia with her.  Him being judgmental about Buffy with Angel/Spike while he's free to sleep with Anya -- who massacred just as many people as Angel and Spike, soul or no soul.  The constant whining about his terrible taste in women when his two failed relationships with Cordy and Anya were his fault.  And the fact that whenever HE screws up, everybody automatically forgives him with little or no judgment -- and yet he never really extends the same courtesy...oh I could go on and on...

 

I hope this is a good idea for a thread.  Remember, no character is immune!

[SeriousPurrs]

Warren is the first to come to mind. I really wanted his ass kicked and kicked repeatedly! What a creep....I know there's more but I'll have to think about it.

[harrie]

For a warm-up, I never liked Riley.  For the only "nice normal" serious boyfriend Buffy ever had, he came off as insecure and aggressive when it came to the fact that Buffy was stronger than him.  And when Buffy didn't lean on him or grieve the way he wanted her to, he goes around and cheats on her with vampires.  Then he has the nerve to issue the "we work this out or I'm leaving" ultimatum.  Real nice.

 

And then there's Xander.  There are a million reasons why I can't stand him.  His immaturity.  His tendency to put Buffy on a pedestal and then verbally eviscerate her when she makes mistakes.  Getting Amy to cast the love spell on Cordelia with the sole purpose of just breaking her heart.  Him finally noticing Willow only when she was with Oz and cheating on Cordelia with her.  Him being judgmental about Buffy with Angel/Spike while he's free to sleep with Anya -- who massacred just as many people as Angel and Spike, soul or no soul.  The constant whining about his terrible taste in women when his two failed relationships with Cordy and Anya were his fault.  And the fact that whenever HE screws up, everybody automatically forgives him with little or no judgment -- and yet he never really extends the same courtesy...oh I could go on and on...

 

 

 

 

 

Far be it from me to defend Riley; I don't love him -- don't even feel strongly one way or the other about him, which is kind of damning in itself -- but I don't think of him as all that selfish in his relationship with Buffy.  Yeah, he's a little insecure, but it could be not so much because she's more powerful than him than that he knows she's holding back from him.  Relationships are made up of two people, each with their own set of needs.  Maybe Riley wants Buffy to be more emotional/open, maybe he actually needs it; but Buffy could be considered just as much at fault for holding back from Riley, whatever her reason(s), as Riley is for being needy. It's part of the Buffy persona - she repeatedly turns inward (ie, telling the Scoobies to stay out of something, it's too much for them to handle, etc.) instead of asking for help or admitting she's hurting.   As for the "work it out or I'm leaving" -- well, at that point he was 99% sure that he had lost Buffy, or had never really had her, so the ultimatum doesn't mean much.  He may have been trying to find out if Buffy had any feeling at all for him.  The fact that Buffy missed Riley's 'copter by seconds, and had chased after him only after Xander convinced her to, makes Riley's ultimatum and ultimate departure not unreasonable. To me, at least. 

 

As for Xander, I've seen lots of his faulty behaviors -- immaturity; putting someone on a pedestal and holding unrealistic expectations of them; occasionally acting short-sightedly and selfishly; finally wanting something they could have had now that they can't have it; seeing faults in others that he can't see in himself -- in people I know.  Maybe I hang out with the wrong people, or maybe Xander is written as the average human with a fair share of characteristics both bad and good. In the "good" column, I'd put stalwart and honest; I could go on for days with a "bad" column.  I think Xander represents the best and the worst -- not worst in the serial killer sense, just in the sense of not being perfect -- of people, which of course doesn't mean you have to love him for it. 

 

Just my opinion, that's why they have horse races, etc.

 

As for me, I could have done without Dawn or Darla. Darla bugs me most in Angel, not BtVS, but she still bugs.  And yeah, Warren was just too evil, if a villain can be that.

Edited June 13, 2014 by harrie

[Jazzy24]

Anya

I hated her and her inability to act like a grown up. Her casually talking about her kills as a vengeance demon was never cute, it was annoying and she was a psychopath. I never cared about her but season 7 when she said those famous words to Buffy about being "luckier" than them pushed my dislike to full blown hate.

And then there's Xander. There are a million reasons why I can't stand him. His immaturity. His tendency to put Buffy on a pedestal and then verbally eviscerate her when she makes mistakes. Getting Amy to cast the love spell on Cordelia with the sole purpose of just breaking her heart. Him finally noticing Willow only when she was with Oz and cheating on Cordelia with her. Him being judgmental about Buffy with Angel/Spike while he's free to sleep with Anya -- who massacred just as many people as Angel and Spike, soul or no soul. The constant whining about his terrible taste in women when his two failed relationships with Cordy and Anya were his fault. And the fact that whenever HE screws up, everybody automatically forgives him with little or no judgment -- and yet he never really extends the same courtesy...oh I could go on and on...

Xander had his moments with me, he was a good guy. But I don't know if I ever liked him. I can see where Xander is coming from on his positions about Angel and Spike(both vampires, both demons, and both really dangerous)and he has a right to be upset when Buffy keeps dangerous demons around his friends but sometimes I just never found his hate towards Angel justified. And whenever he and Buffy argued Xander always came off as more as if he was talking down to Buffy as though he was reprimanding Buffy in the convos. I didn't hate the guy I just never liked him.

[Eegah]

My list always has to begin with Andrew Wells. And he started out so well, as a last minute addition when Tucker's actor wasn't able to come back, which the show itself fully acknowledged with the running gag that none of the Scoobies can remember his name. And then it all went to hell when the crew somehow decided he was more deserving of a redemption story than Jonathan, and we were asked to believe that being tied to a chair for a couple days was enough to redeem a guy whose reaction to getting away with cold-blooded murder was "Cool."

 

And then there's the whole "He's gay, but we'll never say it straight out" thing, which is just bizarre coming from the same show that gave us Willow and Tara. And ends with that uncomfortable bit on Angel where he gives Angel and Spike a lecture about growing up before walking out with two ladies on his arms. Certainly no unfortunate implications there!

[DAngelus]

I'll save defenses for the character threads;  I'm certainly quite fond of Riley and Xander is my second-favorite character in the entire 'Verse, but Spartan Girl's idea here, if I take it correctly, is that this is just a place to vent, without having to defend your position.

[mstaken]

Anya

I hated her

 

 

Right there with you. I actually like the actress, but I found Anya indescribably irritating and thought her relationship with Xander brought out the worst in both of them. The painfully repetitive jokes about how she likes sex and money and lacks tact...and likes sex and money and likes tact...got really old for me in a hurry. 

 

I hated Kennedy with a passion.

 

And...[*whispers*]...I always hated Faith.  

[blugirlami21]

I always hated Tara. I don't feel like she brought anything to the show or Willow for that matter.

[desperatelibrarian]

Among all the characters on the show, the one that I really can't stand is Kennedy.

 

The reasons include being Willow's new girlfriend and constantly overstepping her bounds by being rude to Buffy.

 

I know Willow needed to move on, but Kennedy doesn't strike me as helpful or caring. The two had no chemistry. It just felt like the writers were pandering to the fans who were upset over Tara's death and accused them of being homophobic.

 

I don't think she fits well with the Scooby gang because the gang consists of outsiders yet she feels very content with herself and her life and doesn't show any signs of loneliness. Sure, Cordelia and Oz were popular, but they've had their moments of isolation and you got know them well. Kennedy, on the other hand, is poorly portrayed despite an effort to make her stand out by giving her some background. She's been trying training since she was really young, had a Watcher, and seems to take the situation in S7 very seriously. But I just don't feel like she gives a shit about anything as well as Willow.

Edited June 14, 2014 by desperatelibrarian

[Eegah]

I actually think Kennedy could have worked, if her relationship with Willow was portrayed as just a meaningless fling to take both their minds off all the crap that's going on. But asking me to see her as a worthy replacement for Tara...no.

[buffyjunkie]

 

I think Xander represents the best and the worst -- not worst in the serial killer sense, just in the sense of not being perfect -- of people, which of course doesn't mean you have to love him for it.

This.  Exactly harrie.

 

I initially hated Dawn but then came to love her.  There are very few characters I hate.  I hate Warren but as harrie says in a "too evil" way.  I can't even hate Kenedy because at least she was trying and I'm not going to hate on a woman for that.  I hate Andrew in the way that a good spice used excessively ruins a dish.  And I hate the landshark.  Not sure if the writers were trying to be meta or something but....  I think maybe after all these years it is like attending a funeral.  Even though you vaguely recall a person's flaws, you are more inclined to reminisce on the good parts.

[Valny]

Up votes to all who have Kennedy on their list! Cause she's on top of mine. @Desperatelibrarian  summed it up pretty well,so I don't have a lot more to add. But I disliked her the second she hit on Willow. And when she mouthed off about something in a meeting, I actually cheered when Faith basically told her to shut the hell up. And then there was one ep where they faked us out,thinking she would die when I think, a bringer tries to choke her.(after CWDP,the eps seem to run together for me,so I can't remember what happens in what ep very well)   Anyway, I was so bummed when it was revealed that it was just a trap,using her as bait. Man, I was so disappointed she didn't die!

And I'll say it now, she's a big reason I will not buy the S7 dvds...and I have them all except that one. Nope,not doing it,even if it's too complete the set. Kennedy and the general suckiness of S7 are the two main reasons I won't purchase S7 but that's a different topic. And don't get me started on those damn Potentials. They're probably second of my can't stand list and why I also won't buy the dvds.

Andrew might be third in line for characters I don't enjoy. These people were taking away precious screen time of the regulars and it pissed me off.  Sure he had some funny moments,but way way too much screen time for my tastes. But the writers loved him,so we were stuck.

[Kalliste]

I'm probably going to be unpopular here, but my least favourite character of both Buffy and Angel is actually Buffy. I'm mid way through a re-watch now and I just cannot deal with her sometimes. She gets used by Parker and everything is about her for 4 episodes, Oz leaving Willow was way more of a big deal and it was focused on much less at the time.

I know Buffy is the chosen one and special and etc etc but I just could not stand her better than you attitude and her disbelief when people decided to argue with her. One of my favourite parts in Angel is when she goes to LA and she and Angel are arguing then she hits him and he hits her right on back and she's immensely surprised by it, as though no one would ever consider doing that to her.

 

I hate serious Buffy, I hate playful Buffy, I hate indifferent Buffy. In fact the only Buffy I do like is the bodyswap Buffy.

 

I also don't particularly like Darla, in either Buffy or Angel, or Dru - yes she's crazy, but does that mean she has to be portrayed like an idiot?

[Loandbehold]

My Top 10 most hated characters are Andrew. In two years, he said one mildly funny thing, and that was his Timothy Dalton as best Bond line. Otherwise, he thought date rape and getting away with the murder of Katrina was cool. He was ready to abandon one of his only two friends and later on killed that same friend. He pulled a sword on Xander, who was making the grievous error of trying to save his worthless existence. Each time he was on screen was a painful experience. And, he was given an entire episode just to torture me (thanks Jane!), which ranks as by far the worst episode of the series.

[ParadoxLost]

There was a period after Buffy killed Angel and she ran away that for the Summer and the Scooby gang's reaction was harsh to the point that I wanted to drop both Xander and Willow in a pit never to be seen again.

 

It got better, but once Willow started using her witch powers for selfish reasons I never really liked her again.

 

Dawn was a show killer for me.  Her existence changed the show to the point that it became unwatchable.  It was too soon to go from a metaphor for growing up to a metaphor for single motherhood.  Dawn's fault.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

There was a period after Buffy killed Angel and she ran away that for the Summer and the Scooby gang's reaction was harsh to the point that I wanted to drop both Xander and Willow in a pit never to be seen again.

 

I'm the opposite, because to me it always comes off that Buffy is offended that they'd have a feeling that wasn't totally positive about her. She makes fun of Xander calling himself Nighthawk, and while it was a ridiculous nickname, it maybe/possibly should have occurred to her that he was trying to help take up the slack in the rope after their anchor disappeared for three months. She tries to go back to the way things were as if nothing happened, and I can see why Xander and Willow weren't ready for that yet. If you behave thoughtlessly, its probably not going to turn out well or make people think happy thoughts about you. Buffy Summers is not the only person on the show who's allowed to have a feeling, or even a bad reaction to things. YMMV.

[Jazzy24]

I'm the opposite, because to me it always comes off that Buffy is offended that they'd have a feeling that wasn't totally positive about her. She makes fun of Xander calling himself Nighthawk, and while it was a ridiculous nickname, it maybe/possibly should have occurred to her that he was trying to help take up the slack in the rope after their anchor disappeared for three months. She tries to go back to the way things were as if nothing happened, and I can see why Xander and Willow weren't ready for that yet. If you behave thoughtlessly, its probably not going to turn out well or make people think happy thoughts about you. Buffy Summers is not the only person on the show who's allowed to have a feeling, or even a bad reaction to things. YMMV.

This was not the first time Buffy left her duties for three months, she did it after her sophomore year to stay in LA with her dad so her leaving her post is some BS when she's done it before.

And Willow and Xander should have shut up about Buffy leaving and "ruining their life" they choose that life Buffy didn't. And after what Buffy lost what traumatic things she went through they had no right to come at her like that. They were being selfish in that moment.

[blugirlami21]

I agree with you Jazzy.  The beginning of season two is such a turn off for me for that very reason.  No one tried to understand what it was like for buffy to have to kill the love of her life to save the world.  Knowing that he had regained his soul right before she killed him wasn't easy either.  Joyce I understood because she wasn't in the know but Xander and Willow were jerks to her.  She just needed a break and considering the lifetime commitment she has to being the slayer I think she deserved a summer off.

[KatWay]

I agree with you all about that episode and the scoobie gang's behaviour. It was especially the passive aggressiveness that drove me nuts. They reacted like Buffy had left them standing in the middle of a fight or something in order to go shopping, not that the girl was completely traumatised by having had to kill her first love and needed a break. I would have been on board with Buffy getting some flack for this, but that was just way over the top. 

 

Characters I can't stand: S1-3 Xander (For some reason, the relationship with Anya marked the start of my warming up to him despite the fact that I wasn't a big fan of that relationship either), all the stupid Potentials (especially Kennedy, ugh), S5 Dawn (I actually came to like her in S6 despite how incredibly one note she was, but at least she wasn't stuck in bratty younger sister mode for two thirds of it. I'm the oldest of three sisters, I may have some issues).

[Sarah D. Bunting]

hey Forrest SHUT UP FOREVER

[Jazzy24]

hey Forrest SHUT UP FOREVER

Adam, The Riley obsessed professor(I think Walsh)and the whole Initiative. I hated them all so much except Riley's other cute friend what's his name, and they were boring.

I also hated Kennedy or all the potentials but especially Kennedy. I hated her because she was thrust into the Scooby gang being there in their conversations, having input when she had no right to.

Being an asshole about Buffy when she will NEVER NEVER NEVER be as awesome a slayer as Buffy. She and every potential should have died in the finale. I hated her.

[SomethingClever]

Kennedy is the absolute worst. Of this there can be no doubt.

 

Let me take a moment to defend Andrew here, since I really like that character. Obviously comedy is subjective, and if you don't think he's funny there's not much I can say, but I thought he was a much needed comic relief presence in season 7 in particular, and I really enjoyed Tom Lenk in that role. I really enjoy TV/Movies that explore the idea of the the stories we tell ourselves, the narratives that we shape around our lives, and that's what Andrew is all about. From the very first time we see him ("Flooded" S6E4), Andrew is two things: He's a follower, and he's obsessed with his own story. He's never the first one to speak, always following one of the other two (usually Warren, the more dominant personality). He's always the one framing things in terms of fantasy. He laughs the over-the-top, fingers together laugh when the Trio say they're supervillians. When he and Jonathan compare their success to traveling through a wormhole, he's the one concerned with the physics of the analogy. He's totally wrapped up in the fantasy story he's telling of himself as a comic book supervillain. He also gets really angry when people confuse him for his brother, because that's not his story. All of season 6, he's buying into this story of him becoming a supervillain, and Warren is the guy who is going to get him there. He's not upset by the terrible things they're doing, because it's not real to him. It's all a fantasy, he's walking the pages of a comic book. That part of his character is there from the beginning, and it's even more heavily emphasized in season 7, culminating in "Storyteller", one of my favorite season 7 episodes. All he's every wanted is to deliver dramatic speeches and jetpack away, and in that episode he's made to confront the fact that it wasn't just a fantasy, he's not innocent, and everything doesn't revolve around him. He has to face up to what he's done for the first time. None of that makes anything that he did right, but it's what makes him a more redeemable character than Warren. And, in the end, that storytelling is redeemed when Xander asks about Anya's death, and Andrew replies "She was incredible. She died saving my life." I just really like that character, his arc, and the themes they touch on with him. It's one of my favorite things about season 7.

[Dianthus]

Andrew and Kennedy. Much loathing for both, although I didn't really hate Kennedy until she became Willow's girlfriend. Still, she was a spoiled little rich b!tch and her sense of entitlement made me want to scream.

I didn't care for Anya at first, but she did grow on me. OTOH, it makes me crazy that she killed way more people than Angel and Spike combined (considering collateral damage; she was a demon for 1000+ yrs), but the boys get far more grief for what they've done. I think it's something to do with the addiction metaphor vampirism represents.

[DkNNy79]

There was a period after Buffy killed Angel and she ran away that for the Summer and the Scooby gang's reaction was harsh to the point that I wanted to drop both Xander and Willow in a pit never to be seen again.

 

It got better, but once Willow started using her witch powers for selfish reasons I never really liked her again.

 

Dawn was a show killer for me.  Her existence changed the show to the point that it became unwatchable.  It was too soon to go from a metaphor for growing up to a metaphor for single motherhood.  Dawn's fault.

I am so there with you 100% on all points.

 

Riley's friends: I think Graham was the nice one.  Forrest was a complete utter jacka** from day 1.

[OnceSane]

Loathe Xander & Dawn, mostly for reasons already stated by others.  Also, super annoying.  Same with Kennedy.  I can take or leave Willow.

[Brn2bwild]

I actually think Kennedy could have worked, if her relationship with Willow was portrayed as just a meaningless fling to take both their minds off all the crap that's going on. But asking me to see her as a worthy replacement for Tara...no.

My theory is that Kennedy stepped into the "role" that was supposed to be served by Faith, but they couldn't get Eliza D for enough episodes.

 

 

Dawn was a show killer for me.  Her existence changed the show to the point that it became unwatchable.  It was too soon to go from a metaphor for growing up to a metaphor for single motherhood.  Dawn's fault.

True.  One reason I never liked Dawn was because she seemed to be the reason Joyce died, though the characters/writers never came out and said it.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Brn2bwild

[DAngelus]

Ah, Dead Man's Party.  Again, I'll save most of my thoughts on that episode for its thread (if/when it gets created), but I do have to make one small point.

 

 

This was not the first time Buffy left her duties for three months, she did it after her sophomore year to stay in LA with her dad so her leaving her post is some BS when she's done it before.

 

Post-S1, the Scoobs know where Buffy is (Willow is even in communication with her) and she knows they're all well and good, and the summer is supremely quiet.  (Not one vampire seen between Prophecy Girl and When She Was Bad, apparently.)

 

Post-S2, Buffy runs away leaving only a note behind; her Sunnydale housing situation and her school enrollment are up in the air, the police are investigating her, and for all the Scoobs (and her mom) know, she could be "lying dead in a ditch somewhere".  Meantime, Buffy doesn't bother to check in on her alleged "best friend", who's only in a freaking wheelchair, and might be for the rest of her life, for all Buffy knows (or cares to know).  Nor does she spare a moment to check on how Giles is doing after being tortured, for that matter.

 

Meantime, the Hellmouth is percolating right along, popping out athletic vampires regularly.  (Theory being that Angel, while a magnificent pain in Buffy's ass, wasn't such a quasi-Unholy figure to the local Undead Americans as the Master had been to his Order, and so the vampires went right on killing while Buffy was getting her pout on.  Maybe if she'd decided to mourn Angel in Sunnydale, Andy Hoehlich would still be alive.)  And all that can stand against them are three (later four) barely-experienced teenagers, because for some godforsaken reason Giles (who in S2 used to consider it his duty to patrol when Buffy was unavailable [see Ted or BB&B]) is now content to let Xander/Willow/Oz fly solo and not worry over much that the 40%-50% of the vampires that get away don't kill the Scoobs while they're doing so.  Riiiiight.

 

So, yes, I'd prefer if Buffy would get her "WAAAH! Angel!" ass back to her station, thank you very much.  And if Willow isn't ready to dance off to the mall at a moment's notice when Princess Buffy finally decides to come home, well, tough luck for Buffy.

 

(I still like Buffy, overall.  But S3 is when i start to have major problems with her self-involvement.  No more questing for cable-ready caves, it seems.)

 

As for actual characters I can't stand, let's hit a few:

 

Spike (overrated when he was good; ate the show and Joss's instrument of character rape [and literal rape] later on.)

 

Anya (one joke, run straight into the ground.  Nowhere as funny as the show thinks she is, and wouldn't be worth the time spent on her even if she was.)

 

Tara (a stick to hit Willow with.  Cry, bad Willow, for not being as perfect as the Sainted and [not-soon-enough] Martyred Tara!  Oy.  Oz was almost as bad, but at least he was funny and took an interest in the other Scoobs.  Tara, not so much.)

 

Jonathan (oh, the poor little rapist/murderer just wanted to be a Scooby! [Not really, but his fans like to claim it]  Gets chance after underserved chance and blows every one of them.  Remakes the world so he can rape Ilse and Inge.  And then has the nerve to complain that they moved out when the spell ends.  Fuck him.  And his big moment in Grave, when he tells Andrew they're going to do the right thing and turn themselves in?  Yeah, didn't actually do that.)

 

Andrew (a lesser offender, because he was actually a nicely creepy villain from Dead Things through Conversations with Dead Plotlines, if you can ignore the nerd "jokes".  I don't mind having villains, they're part of the show, whereas being told I'm supposed to sympathize with Spike or Anya or Jonathan when I really think they're getting off easy works my last nerve.  But then he was transformed into the "funny" guestage in S7 and was a sucking chest wound the rest of the way.  His spotlight episode [really, Jane? REALLY?] ended with a hint of character growth…and then he was the same useless airtime-sucker the rest of the series.  Go play Dungeons & Dragons on a show that isn't egregiously neglecting its main characters, season-plot, and general morality and themes, mmmkay?  Bye, ass-wipe.)

 

And, finally…Joyce Summers.  Stay away from the schnapps and read up a little about PTSD sometime, okay, lady?  No, I'm NOT talking about Dead Man's Party here (it fits Joyce's pattern, but she's got provocation…for once), I'm talking about S1, where Joyce is all "don't forget, we had to move because you burned down the gym". How about a little sympathy for how your daughter might be acting out because her friends are dead, okay?  Did you notice that Cassandra doesn't come over to study any more?  Did you miss the bit about how the death rate at Hemery started spiking right when Buffy got "in trouble"?  A little less talk about the fucking gallery, a little more willingness not to automatically assume the worst about your daughter, and maybe I'll give a crap when Buffy finds you taking that nap on the sofa in S5.  I swear, it's like Dawn was the favorite child before she even existed…

 

(Oh, and the divorce didn't help any, by the way.  Yes, Hank's an asshole, but Buffy loves him; she'll spend her entire dating life trying to recapture her father figure, which is a little creepy, but that's trauma for you.  She blames herself for his leaving, did you know that?  Maybe if you paid attention, you might be able to help her heal.  Put down the parenting books [really?] and try some parenting sometime.  Just a thought.)

 

Also not such a huge fan of Darla, but "hate" would be overstating it.  And I think the Mayor is terribly overrated as a villain, but I can still enjoy Harry G's performance.

 

All JMO, O'course.

Edited July 3, 2014 by DAngelus

[Kalliste]

Ugh, you're so right about Joyce. I liked how they did her death scene when buffy got home and there was no sound except Buffy. That was neat, but mostly I was just thinking "cool, now we don't need to deal with Joyce anymore". I did like her and Giles in Band Candy though,

[BC Mama]

I have to add Adam to the hate list! He is my least favourite of the "big bads"! I would compulsively roll my eyes every time he was on the screen. I would have been more interested in his character if they went more of a Frankenstein route, and made him a bit more sympathetic. But, the whole, I'm a part man/robot/demon and I want to create an army of demonoids was just silly.

Edited July 6, 2014 by BC Mama

[CletusMusashi]

Angelus. His dialogue was badly written, compared to that of the others back then, and the way that Boreanaz acted the role when he was in 'Gelus mode never did it for me. Angel? A bit cliched, but decently done once you got past that. Angelus? Just a smarmy, petty buffoon. The only thing I liked about Angelus was Spike heckling him.

And to be honest, his curse was a mind-bogglingly stupid idea. Instead of using their magic to, say, kill him painfully, they just make him sad until one moment of happiness occurs (which seems kind of inevitable, eventually,) and then he's back again with a vengeance. I could never really understand what their motivation was beyond "it's in the script."

[Jazzy24]

Angelus. His dialogue was badly written, compared to that of the others back then, and the way that Boreanaz acted the role when he was in 'Gelus mode never did it for me. Angel? A bit cliched, but decently done once you got past that. Angelus? Just a smarmy, petty buffoon. The only thing I liked about Angelus was Spike heckling him.

And to be honest, his curse was a mind-bogglingly stupid idea. Instead of using their magic to, say, kill him painfully, they just make him sad until one moment of happiness occurs (which seems kind of inevitable, eventually,) and then he's back again with a vengeance. I could never really understand what their motivation was beyond "it's in the script."

I never got the curse either.

Why didn't the gypsies just send Angelus into an eternal hell, why would they place a curse that could bring him back again?

[Loandbehold]

I think I understand the curse. The gypsies wanted him to suffer mental and emotional torment, not a physical one. So, Angelus remains, but the soul lets him understand and feel all the pain he caused others. What doesn't make sense is the loophole. For that, I agree it's there because the plot says it needed to be there.

[Tararayne]

What I don't understand about the curse is that isn't the curse punishing the wrong person, in a way? Isn't Angel taking the punishment for things Angelus did?

And I can't talk about my hatred of Kennedy without bringing up the actress, who played a huge part in how terrible the character was. She had this "cutesy" manner of speaking while doing weird things with her lips and eyebrows that just made me want to smack her over and over. I felt like she was trying to channel Piper Perabo and was not authentic at all.

[scarletregina]

I hated all of the potentials - well, actually, I hated most of season 7. I don't know what that mess was, but it wasn't BtVS.

 

I did not like Spike in later seasons. Mostly because his character's evolution eschewed the cannon that vampires were demons that inhabited your body. You weren't *you.* The Spike retcon was too much for me to handle, especially because it invalidated the entire Angelus storyline. 

 

Amy should've stayed a rat. 

[SilverShadow]

Xander for much of the first three seasons, Willow in the first batch of epsiodes of season 3, up through "Lovers' Walk" and again through most of Season 6, Riley-especially in season 5, Spike from "Smashed" through the end of the show. And fucking Kenendy and Andrew. 

[Bitterswete]

I hated all of the potentials - well, actually, I hated most of season 7. I don't know what that mess was, but it wasn't BtVS.

 

I did not like Spike in later seasons. Mostly because his character's evolution eschewed the cannon that vampires were demons that inhabited your body. You weren't *you.*

 

The Spike retcon was too much for me to handle, especially because it invalidated the entire Angelus storyline.

 

Actually, according to canon, a vampire can't get their personality from the demon because the demon has no personality. I don't think the vampire demon would even qualify as sentient. They are basically like really violent and aggressive wild animals, acting on instinct.

 

Instead, a vampire's personality came from their human side, or at least the darkest parts of it. They are the way they are because they no longer have a conscience (soul) to keep them in check, and there's a demonic presence inside of them giving them all of these urges (for blood, violence, etc.) that they have no reason not to satisfy. 

 

So what they did with Spike in show wasn't really a retcon, nor did it invalidate the Angelus storyline. They showed that vampires could be as unique and individualistic as humans, that there was no "one size fits all" way for vampires to act, which I actually liked. And there's nothing in canon that says what happened with Spike was totally impossible.

 

The problem with Spike was the way the PTB tried to frame it as him being somehow special (he maintained more of his humanity than other vamps, or whatever they tried to say) when it wasn't really necessary. Or true. They showed other vamps were also capable of walking the straight and narrow if it suited their purposes.

[scarletregina]

 

Actually, according to canon, a vampire can't get their personality from the demon because the demon has no personality. I don't think the vampire demon would even qualify as sentient. They are basically like really violent and aggressive wild animals, acting on instinct.

 

Instead, a vampire's personality came from their human side, or at least the darkest parts of it. They are the way they are because they no longer have a conscience (soul) to keep them in check, and there's a demonic presence inside of them giving them all of these urges (for blood, violence, etc.) that they have no reason not to satisfy. 

 

 

 

 

That's not how I read Buffy's speech to Ford in "Lie to Me."

 

He says "I'll be immortal." 

 

She responds with "That's not how it works. You die and a demon sets up shop in your hold house. And it walks and it talks and it remembers your old life, but it's not you." 

 

It's not merely a lack of conscience. The idea was that you were your soul. When that leaves, so do you. If there was anything left of Ford then *he* would be immortal. That was my take on it, anyway.

 

That being said, if Spike was simply a special snowflake, then it would explain away the problem.

[Carrie Ann]

I do think Spike received the special snowflake treatment from the writers in many aspects. But even outside of him, there's Dru. Angel drove her mad by conducting a campaign of psychological torment, and then he turned her into a vampire. And she ends up still crazy as a vampire. She still has psychic visions, which she did as a human as well. So I do think the vampire's personality comes from their human self. That's shown pretty consistently throughout the series.

 

I think what Buffy told Ford was based on her understanding of it at that time. And further, there is some truth to it. Ford is approaching it like he'll be immortal, and yeah a vampire, but still himself in the way he currently understands it. What he doesn't understand is that the "demon"--for lack of a better word for the transformation, the disappearance of a soul, that takes place--will be in control, and whatever he identifies as self will be gone. Ford will be gone.

[Bitterswete]

That's not how I read Buffy's speech to Ford in "Lie to Me."

 

He says "I'll be immortal." 

 

She responds with "That's not how it works. You die and a demon sets up shop in your hold house. And it walks and it talks and it remembers your old life, but it's not you." 

 

I think what Buffy told Ford was based on her understanding of it at that time.

 

Exactly. Buffy was hardly an expert on vampires. (There was even an incident later where Buffy says one thing about vampires and Angel starts to contradict her.) What she said in "Lie to Me" was how she saw it. And maybe even how the Watchers saw it. (Because they weren't as all-knowing as they liked everyone to believe.) But that doesn't mean she was totally right. And, also, this was in early season two, and the shows' ideas about their own mythos were still evolving.

 

It's not merely a lack of conscience. The idea was that you were your soul. When that leaves, so do you. If there was anything left of Ford then *he* would be immortal. That was my take on it, anyway.

 

Along with showing what the "pure" vampire demon was like (a mindless creature driven by instinct), they also showed a human without a soul. Said human was living his life just like everyone else, so there was still a person there. He was just a person who had no qualms about killing anyone who made him mad.

 

So I don't think that a vampire totally stops being the person they were when they were turned. They just lose one thing (the soul), and gain something a lot less nice (the demon).

[scarletregina]

If that's true then it creates even more of a problem. If vampires can be good and Buffy is running around killing them without asking questions, then that takes some of the shine off of what she does. Who know how many "good" vampires she's staked. That's probably a discussion for another thread.

 

I suppose it's a matter of opinion whether or not it was Buffy's misunderstanding or if it was retcon by the writers. I think it was the latter. They realized they'd put too many restrictions on vamps, so they shifted direction in order to tell the stories they wanted to tell. 

[Bitterswete]

If that's true then it creates even more of a problem. If vampires can be good and Buffy is running around killing them without asking questions, then that takes some of the shine off of what she does. Who know how many "good" vampires she's staked.

 

I'm not sure what one thing has to do with the other. The fact that I think a vamp's personality comes from their human side doesn't mean they are "good people." They are still, for all intents and purposes, serial killers who place no value on human life and (except for in very rare cases) see no reason not to give in to their violent urges. (Which usually involves killing people.)

 

In a few very rare cases, we saw vampires try to control themselves. But it wasn't because they had turned good and suddenly felt killing people was wrong. It was because they had some selfish reason for doing it.  Take away that reason, and they'd go right back to killing without remorse.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Bitterswete

[Dev F]

I think it's also easy to confuse two separate issues here: whether a vampire inherits its personality from its human host, and whether it actually is that host in a basic existential sense. Even if a vampire has all the memories and emotions of the original human, and even if the vampire itself thinks it's the same person, that wouldn't preclude Buffy's "a demon sets up shop in your old house" speech from being true.

 

The latter is just about the basic force of consciousness, the fact that you're the one behind your own eyes looking out. If a demon kicks you out and takes over your body and mind, such that it now remembers living your life but you no longer have access to anything it experiences subsequently, in the most basic sense that demon is not you.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

In a few very rare cases, we saw vampires try to control themselves. But it wasn't because they had turned good and suddenly felt killing people was wrong. It was because they had some selfish reason for doing it.  Take away that reason, and they'd go right back to killing without remorse.

 

But the key word is 'try', isn't it? Because that isn't their normal way of acting. Their normal way of doing things is to kill without remorse, full stop. And even when Spike was supposedly 'reforming' because of the chip, he still acted on his violent impulses, he just acted on them because he thought it would get him into Buffy's good graces, and eventually her pants.

 

Buffy: "Let me get this straight. You want credit for not feeding off of bleeding disaster victims." Not a question, a statement.

 

Spike: "Well.....yeah." A deadpan answer.

 

Kind of undercuts any idea about that 'partial soul' thing, doesn't it?

 

Even without that, if Spike can decide to get a soul, for whatever reason, then another vampire with more attention span than a gnat could also decide to get a soul, yes? If that's the case, then how many times did Buffy stake a vampire who could have decided at some indeterminate time to become a force for good? When does protecting people from deadly threats become murder if there's even the chance that the enemy could choose to not be the enemy anymore?

[Bitterswete]

I think it's also easy to confuse two separate issues here: whether a vampire inherits its personality from its human host, and whether it actually is that host in a basic existential sense.

 

I guess it depends on whether you think the soul is all that a person truly is so that, without the soul, they are no longer that person. I don't. I think a soul is a part of who a person is, and we are made of other stuff too. And, when the soul leaves, the other stuff stays behind. And this "other stuff" is as much a part of who a person is as their soul.

 

Even without that, if Spike can decide to get a soul, for whatever reason, then another vampire with more attention span than a gnat could also decide to get a soul, yes? If that's the case, then how many times did Buffy stake a vampire who could have decided at some indeterminate time to become a force for good? When does protecting people from deadly threats become murder if there's even the chance that the enemy could choose to not be the enemy anymore?

 

I don't think a chance is good enough. As long as a vampire is out there killing people, and not thinking anything is wrong with it, they are fair game as far as I'm concerned. I think the lives of innocent people trumps the possibility that a remorseless killer might, someday, stop slaughtering innocents for one reason or another. Now if a vamp actually goes and gets a soul or something, that's a different story.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I don't think a chance is good enough. As long as a vampire is out there killing people, and not thinking anything is wrong with it, they are fair game as far as I'm concerned. I think the lives of innocent people trumps the possibility that a remorseless killer might, someday, stop slaughtering innocents for one reason or another. Now if a vamp actually goes and gets a soul or something, that's a different story.

 

The thing about that is, the show told me that Buffy was right to spare Spike eight thousand times because he eventually got a soul and hey, it only took him a hundred and twenty years or whatever. And then when he had that shiny soul, he was still as remorseless about his crimes as he was without it. I don't care that Wood tried to kill him, and I don't care that he didn't kill Wood in retaliation. Only a psychopath acts like you ought to be grateful that they don't tear your throat out, and only a sociopath backs you up when you say you'll kill someone if they so much as look at you funny again, Buffy.

[taanja]

I'll get back on topic:

 

I always hated Xander --- from the very beginning. I refuse to watch any episodes devoted to anything Xander. In fact I often FF through his scenes because ---Xander!

 

Willow was never my favorite but I could tolerate her in the early seasons. I'm not sure when she adopted that whiney voice? but that was a big turn off to me. It could have something to do with the actress who I don't like. In fact, she was one of the reasons I could never watch HIMYM. That voice! That whiney nasal-ey voice! Ugh.

 

The only other character I couldn't stand was Riley. Milk-toast boring Riley. I like season 4 for the most part and season 5 but many scenes with Riley get the Xander treatment from me---fast forward baby!

[amensisterfriend]

It could have something to do with the actress who I don't like. In fact, she was one of the reasons I could never watch HIMYM. That voice! That whiney nasal-ey voice! Ugh.

 

On paper, S1-S4 Willow is the character I'd most love and relate to, but I couldn't agree more about the actress ruining her for me. That affected stammering, breathless cooing and icky cutesiness is borderline intolerable for me. As she got older, those 'wide-eyed wittle girl' attempts at adorableness got even weirder and more annoying for me. 

 

I can't stand Anya despite my fondness for the actress who plays her. The jokes about sex, money and lack of tact got old by the end of S4 for me, and I don't think her relationship with Xander did either of them any favors. 

 

I'm sure that if I allowed myself to acknowledge that S7 actually happened, I'd join you guys in listing the potentials here as well :) 

Edited November 8, 2014 by amensisterfriend

[cheezwhiz346]

Hmmm... I don't know if I absolutely hated any of the characters in terms of their potential. Riley, for instance, is a character I actually don't really mind on his own. His naivete/earnestness getting smacked down over the course of season 4 and his learning process (of the kind of relationship/life he needed) in season 5 are actually things I can appreciate. It's more about how much the show/writers seemed to want the audience to be on his side. In season 4, especially after 'Doomed,' I could not see why Buffy would put up with him, and in the second Faith crossover ep, Who Are You?, when Faith sleeps with Riley, it seemed like the audience was supposed to believe Faith was deeply affected by his ~deep love for Buffy. I just couldn't see him as anything other than someone who was sweet and well-intentioned but at the same time limited and narrow-minded, and I feel like the show didn't acknowledge the latter two quite enough for my tastes. Of course, if they had, Buffy probably wouldn't have been in a relationship with him in the first place, so.

 

Then there's season 7 Spike for the exact reasons @CobaltStargazer mentioned a couple of posts up. But again, Spike as a character, pre-soul, was someone I thought was a good character. It was the decision to get a soul and everything after that make his s7 scenes pretty much unwatchable for me. Actually pretty much everyone in that season pisses me off, with the exception of Faith, which is probably because she was only on for a couple of episodes.

 

Willow I always enjoyed, especially when you saw her flaws really come out (which happened throughout the series, even if it was often minimized or played for laughs); I just couldn't enjoy her arc in s6.  

 

Actually, as a character apart from any individual arcs the one I probably came the closest to hating was Anya. She felt at first like a poor-man's Cordelia, and then instead of really developing her further over the years, the writers just settled on a handful of disparate traits that didn't always make sense together, and played one or the other up whenever they felt like she needed to be doing something (like her random claustrophobia/being obsessed with being a bride in season 6, or her fear of bunnies, which was consistent but not a substitute for an actual personality trait). She was just an incredibly shallow character for the amount of screen time she had.

[ByTor]

The only characters I really couldn't stand were Darla & Drusilla, and I think it had more to do with the actresses rather than the characters.  I can't stand Julie Benz with that lispy, whispery baby voice (I couldn't watch Dexter because of her), and I understand Dry was supposed to be insane, but IMO Juliet Landau overacted to the point of insanity.

[Bitterswete]

I just couldn't see him as anything other than someone who was sweet and well-intentioned but at the same time limited and narrow-minded,

 

I think Riley was the opposite of limited. I guess he was limited in terms of being a normal human (especially after he lost the power boost). But, as humans go, he had a lot going for him in terms of being intelligent, extremely capable, in top shape physically, and not a bad looking guy to boot.

 

As for him being narrow-minded, I don't really see that either.

 

The only characters I really couldn't stand were Darla & Drusilla, and I think it had more to do with the actresses rather than the characters.  I can't stand Julie Benz with that lispy, whispery baby voice (I couldn't watch Dexter because of her), and I understand Dry was supposed to be insane, but IMO Juliet Landau overacted to the point of insanity.

 

Darla was one of several characters I ended up liking more on Angel than on BtVS.

 

The problem with Dru was that she was such a caricature. Her job was to come in, act crazy beyond belief, then leave again. That was it. It was hard to think of her as an actual character because, most of the time, she really wasn't one. She was just there, acting crazy.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Bitterswete