Season 4 Discussion

[dubbel zout]

I kind of wish the show had ended instead of trying to force a new vicar-detective. Leonard and Geordie have some history, but they aren't Sydney and Geordie, and Will and Geordie have a ways to go.

[Sarah 103]

12 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Not sure what scene you're describing.  I think after Leonard realized Geordie was interested in "Greeks" rather than Greeks he understood everything.  He is naïve, but not stupid. 

To be gay in that era and that naïve is deadly. He should have gotten it much sooner and not needed help from Daniel. 

[12catcrazy]

Again, this show trying to shoehorn modern issues into the world of late 1950s England.   

As somebody else pointed out upthread, this was the era when Alan Turing was arrested, publicly disgraced, and forced to undergo a terrible thing - hormonal castration - because homosexuality was against the law in England.   My guess, IRL, the housekeeper would have been horrified, and much more so than how they portrayed it on the show.  She has been portrayed as a religious woman so how would that jive keeping that kind of info from Church superiors?   Maybe many people really did have a "care less" attitude about what goes on behind closed doors and all that, but you're talking about a priest in a country parish for cryin out loud.  And homosexuality was considered a sin against God.     And that poor guy who the cop "outted" - I bet his life went into the sewer, unless his wife just kept her hurt, anger, and shock private to protect her family.   What a lousy thing to do, but I guess that Georgie could have done worse and actually arrested the guy for indecency or whatever it was called then.  

All that being said, I enjoyed this episode more than all the Sidney angst of previous shows.  I really like Leonard, I just wish he could be a little less bumbling.  And too bad that this show couldn't be content to let Leonard be the cop's partner in detective work - somebody obviously thought they needed another good-looking young guy to do that.  

[AllAboutMBTV]

Tonight, a very special episode, Queer as Grantchester. Honestly, I had to laugh -- lesbians and gay men, imported from Bletchley Park to run a computer lab, an apparently above-board hoity-toity social club for gay men that provides a "boy" to bring your drinks, gay-adjacent sales clerks (who turn out not to be), men kissing in the vicarage kitchen, outings, stylish suits, black leather motorcycle jackets, doilies. Did I miss anything? It just needed a drag queen.

Honestly, Mrs. C., Daniel seems to be hanging out at the vicarage with Leonard half the time. What did you think their relationship was? There are none so blind as those that will not see. But she'll come around, I'm sure.

What happened to I think his name was Phil, the smarmy cop who worked with Geordie? He was better than the lummox who replaced him.

Thumbs up to the visual parallel of Will on his motorcycle racing through the countryside like Sidney on his bike. And I assume that Dickens is still played by the original dog. More of the Snippy Parishioner ("Just what we need, another drunk."), please. I've always thought the Grantchester flock could be worth investigating, but then I've read a lot of Barbara Pym.

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, 12catcrazy said:

She has been portrayed as a religious woman so how would that jive keeping that kind of info from Church superiors? 

She could tell herself she didn't see what she saw, that it just looked like they were kissing etc. Put it out of her mind. Some things are too outside what somebody finds acceptable for them to react to it the way they'd really react to it.

[12catcrazy]

1 hour ago, AllAboutMBTV said:

Tonight, a very special episode, Queer as Grantchester. Honestly, I had to laugh -- lesbians and gay men, imported from Bletchley Park to run a computer lab, an apparently above-board hoity-toity social club for gay men that provides a "boy" to bring your drinks, gay-adjacent sales clerks (who turn out not to be), men kissing in the vicarage kitchen, outings, stylish suits, black leather motorcycle jackets, doilies. Did I miss anything? It just needed a drag queen.

I just spit out my tea reading this - thanks for the laugh! 

1 hour ago, AllAboutMBTV said:

[Possum]

I finally saw the first two episodes of this season and was not impressed.  Others in this thread have pointed out the flaws better than I ever could.  The best scenes were the chase at the beginning and Sidney and Georgie in the bar at the end.

I've watched Grantchester from the beginning but admittedly, I'm not a big fan of the show.  The first season was very good, but I thought it started going downhill after that.  I've kept with it hoping it would get better.  Instead, it seems to continually spiral downward.  The mysteries have been interesting, but I struggle to like the characters.  While some may say the characters are more human than on other mystery programs, , i.e. having tons of flaws, it doesn't make them very likable.  If I don't find characters likable, it's hard to root for them.

I will welcome a new vicar and hope the show improves with fresh blood.  I have yet to see the third episode of this season with the new guy, but I'm hoping the show will pull itself out of the doldrums.  If not, I think it's finally time for me to give up on Grantchester for good.  I'm such a huge British mystery fan that it's just so hard for me to give up on new shows.

[Desperado]

Episode 3 was fine. I felt so bad for Georgie’s wife, but I can’t really understand why she wouldn’t tell her husband about what she’s going through. He doesn’t seem to type to blame her. Maybe she’s afraid he would get into trouble by beating the nasty man up?

The new vicar swears up and down that this post is the most important thing to him but spends most of his time away from his parishioners. At least he was useful with the boy...

And Leonard, poor Leonard losing his good friend. I feel so bad for him. I really hope they’re not building a suicide story for his character. And I don’t think his lover has his best interests at heart - why is he always at the vicarage?

[sugarbaker design]

9 hours ago, Desperado said:

Episode 3 was fine. I felt so bad for Georgie’s wife, but I can’t really understand why she wouldn’t tell her husband about what she’s going through. He doesn’t seem to type to blame her. Maybe she’s afraid he would get into trouble by beating the nasty man up?

Get in trouble?  Geordie would lose his job and do jail time.  Her family would suffer.  I like the pacing of this B story, they're taking their time with it, showing her impossible situation.

9 hours ago, Desperado said:

And I don’t think his lover has his best interests at heart - why is he always at the vicarage?

Because that's where Leonard is!

Edited July 29, 2019 by sugarbaker design

[BlackberryJam]

I enjoyed this episode. I think it's a good start on getting to know Will. I think that Mrs.. C's reaction was appropriate and understandable for the time. And of course Leonard and the man he loves want to be near each other.

[JudyObscure]

Well, I should have known to be careful what I wish for.  I wanted a more realistic look at what life would be like for Leonard and Mrs. C, if she knew, and now I'm getting it and it's heart breaking.   

Leonard was just beginning to love and accept himself as he is and now this. 

Mrs. C thinks she and Leonard are both going to burn in Hell if she doesn't take a firm stand and it's taking away everything she loves about her life.

Poor Will doesn't have a clue about all the tension at the vicarage and thinks they don't like him.

Cathy can't tell Geordie.  She somehow feels like it's partly her fault and only Geordie can reassure her that it isn't, but he would probably kill the smarmy creep.

The worst  part is, what will Dickens do without his alpha bitch?

[palmaire]

Since Sydney and his alcoholic misery are gone, the show somehow needs to makes Leonard and Mrs. C. emotional basket cases instead. The sadness runs deep in this bucolic and peaceful setting! 

Will has started out cheerful and gung ho so I'm guessing he's headed for some kind of breakdown.

Edited July 31, 2019 by palmaire

[magdalene]

What is Geordie's wife supposed to do that wouldn't have awful consequences for her family?  The culture is decades away from anything resembling the Me Too Movement.  This is why so many women kept silent while being sexually harrassed and assaulted. It isn't pretty but it is reality.

And so is what Leonard is currently experiencing.  Actually sadly he is fortunate to still have his job and to not be in prison and facing chemical castration.

[AuntiePam]

Cathy's "light in the loafers" co-worker will probably end up dead.  He's going to importune the wrong person.  Either that, or Cathy will kill him accidentally, pushing him or something.  I hope it's that, and not Geordie going after the guy. 

I hope Mrs. C soon realizes that if she refuses to have any sinners for friends, she won't have any friends.  What would Jesus do, after all? 

Will has good detective instincts, at least about this week's case.  The daddy issues were telegraphed.  He's no Sidney in the looks department, but that's okay.  Makes Geordie look hotter by comparison.  Those eyes!

I hope grandma doesn't do much prison time.  If she hadn't thrown the rock -- if she'd just pushed the woman, she could probably have gotten off, as accidental, or even self-defense. 

[JudyObscure]

I'm hoping Grandma finds friends in prison and enjoys her comparative freedom.

[BlackberryJam]

Will did have good instincts with the mystery, while still being clueless about what is going on in his own home.

I think Cathy likely would have quit and found a new job. That's what women often did, switch jobs to avoid the harassment and never tell a soul what happened. I like the idea of her accidentally killing him, only it's more likely that it will be one of her co-worker and Geordie gets called in and makes all the wrong assumptions.

I noticed lummox co-worker was back being an asshole.

On the Mrs. C front, it's not that Leonard is a sinner. She knows people are sinners. It's that, for the time, what he's doing is abomination. It was viewed as the same as sexually molesting children or skinning puppies. Mrs. C shouldn't have the social understanding of 2019 and I'll be pissed if they turn her into that. A period show should reflect the period.

Leonard is sweet and adorable and clueless. If I can't have Sidney backpacking through Europe, maybe Leonard and Daniel can do it. 

[ShelleySue]

I can't believe I waited so long for this new season and there are only two more new episodes.
My heart is breaking for Cathy.

Spoiler

The preview for next week shows Geordie saying that he thinks Cathy is having an affair.  While that could be considered karma or payback, I hope that she finally tells him what's going on.

[MaryHedwig]

3 hours ago, AuntiePam said:

Cathy's "light in the loafers" co-worker will probably end up dead.  He's going to importune the wrong person.  Either that, or Cathy will kill him accidentally, pushing him or something.  I hope it's that, and not Geordie going after the guy. 

I am also wondering if Leonard's partner Daniel is not long for this world. The writers are not giving us a chance to attach to him. His death would certainly move the Leonard plot along. Geordie's new partners seem expendable as well.

[JudyObscure]

3 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

On the Mrs. C front, it's not that Leonard is a sinner. She knows people are sinners. It's that, for the time, what he's doing is abomination. It was viewed as the same as sexually molesting children or skinning puppies.

Right.  I don't see her as judging him at all, but just feeling like she would be doing wrong herself if she supported him while he was actively doing something she believed was so wrong.

[sistermagpie]

22 hours ago, Desperado said:

And Leonard, poor Leonard losing his good friend. I feel so bad for him. I really hope they’re not building a suicide story for his character. And I don’t think his lover has his best interests at heart - why is he always at the vicarage?

Yeah, I liked it when it seemed like Leonard was annoyed at how he was the one in the vulnerable position there, iirc. i don't think he's got any bad intentions, but he's not working at the same level of discretion Leonard is, obviously. Mrs. C. isn't somebody looking out for clues that anybody is gay. You'd almost need her to walk in on a kiss to even think that and that's exactly what he provided her with.

I hope it leads to something interesting with Leonard, though. He's already given in to despair. I like him getting angry at people instead--though he'll probably end up lashing out at his boyfriend and be lonely.

Cathy's story is so hard to watch, but the logic her boss gave her was so believable and coldly infuriating--and lying to Geordie is going to cut her off from that support too. Maybe worse.

[dubbel zout]

"Buying flowers for my beautiful wife is not a waste of my money." Well done, Geordie.

The case resolved itself a bit too neatly, but it was interesting.

14 hours ago, Sarah Heart said:

Poor sweet Leonard, when he said what about my friend, I wanted to say, Mrs C, he's the same person,  he's still your sweet Leonard ..I hope she realises this season what a mistake she has made

She will; Tessa Peake-Jones is in the credits. 😉 Aside from that, I think Mrs. C's identity is too wrapped up with the vicarage to stay away for too long. I don't think her pride would allow someone else to be the housekeeper.

Next week: Inspector Lynley!

[Quilt Fairy]

On 7/29/2019 at 12:10 PM, AuntiePam said:

He's no Sidney in the looks department, but that's okay. 

No disrespect to the actor, but they picked someone very bland-looking to replace James Norton, who will always stand out in a crowd.

[12catcrazy]

Now I think think the new Vicar is cute in a boyish way!  He kind of reminds me of a less goofy Pete Davidson.  

I enjoyed the crime of the week (that "mother" got what was coming to her).  I didn't enjoy watching Cathy's humiliation.  I don't understand why she doesn't quit the job because it's not like the family really needs her income, which in a way sort of dilutes her problem.  It's one thing for a struggling single woman who needs that job or she won't have a roof over her head or be able to feed her kids, it's another for a married woman who really could quit if she wants to.   And please don't think I'm dismissing what she is going through.  I worked at two places where men in supposed "important" positions seemed to be able to do to the female staff what they wanted.   In the one place, the hotshot salesman actually grabbed the receptionist's breast (he tried grabbing me from behind once and he got an elbow in his ribs).  When my boss (a male) complained about this jerk's actions to the owner, he was told that the salesman was important to the company, and could he please tell his staff to "be understanding".   My boss was outraged, but it didn't get any of us any where.  In the 2nd job, the perp was this late in middle age self-styled Latin Lover who never grabbed anybody, but man, could he leer!   The female staff was uncomfortable as hell around this guy.  My boss at that one was the owner's daughter and she complained to her father and she was told that we'd all just have to suck it up as he was too valuable to let go.   All that happened between 1986 and 1989.  A good 30 years after what Cathy is going through in Grantchester. 

[dubbel zout]

2 minutes ago, 12catcrazy said:

I don't understand why she doesn't quit the job because it's not like the family really needs her income, which in a way sort of dilutes her problem.

It's not about the money, it's about giving Cathy some outside self-respect and sense of independence. 

[12catcrazy]

Yes, I understand that she wants self respect and independence, but it's hard to get self respect when you have to worry about some pig trying to maul you every time you turn around.  In this case, it would be more self respecting to quit the job as she made a complaint and was blown off and made to feel as if SHE was doing something wrong.

[dubbel zout]

Or she could try to fight it by discreetly asking others if they've been harassed by the same guy. Strength in numbers. If that doesn't work, then I agree finding another job might be the way to go.

[NoThyme]

My heart was breaking for Leonard when he telling her how much she meant to him. wonderful acting. Angry at his boyfriend. 

[Possum]

Probably not a popular opinion, but I think Will is giving the series a much-needed boost.  I liked Sidney well enough but I grew tired of all of his angst especially his constant pining after the married girl.  Will is new and fresh, and although I'm sure we'll quickly find out many of his problems, I like having a new, likable character to discover.

I'm looking forward to seeing Nat Parker again in tonight's episode.

[Quilt Fairy]

3 hours ago, Possum said:

Probably not a popular opinion, but I think Will is giving the series a much-needed boost.

I don't think we've seen enough of Will to have an opinion one way or the other.  It's the writing that has let the series down, not the actors.  Would I have preferred to keep James Norton with some greatly improved storylines? Absolutely.  But that's not what happened.  So I'm keeping an open mind. 

[dargosmydaddy]

Well, that got real angsty real fast....

[mjc570]

S4E5

ugh, how depressing.  I like (sarcastic, of course) how all these upper-crust Brits would rather an elderly man be beaten for thefts he did not commit, and hang for a murder he didn't do, rather than "dishonor" the lordly abusive con man,  When Will's mother chickened out of going to the police, why didn't they at least get a written statement from her?  Since (I presume) Will's father didn't write a confession, does this mean Eli really is off the hook or will the police just continue to  pick on the lowest class person to save face?  I'm not sure if the estate is entailed or what the debts are, but I would love it if Will sells it all and gives all the proceeds tot he long-suffering staff. 

I understand how hurt Leonard is, but I feel like he's been going through a major character assassination here.  I always thought that he was sweet and kind - I guess not any more.  He didn't even give Will a chance to explain himself before turning him in.  And while I understand exactly why his words triggered that response from Will, I don't see any way that Will can come back from this.   Maybe they need to clean house completely in the vicarage (except for Dickens, of course), with some new priests and a new housekeeper. 

Glad they didn't drag out the Cathy "affair" thing, and I admire her for being open about it, especially that it's her right to determine what, if any, action to take.  I guess it probably would have been out of character for the times for her to talk with Geordie about how to handle it going forward. 

[2727]

Also Leonard, was Sydney really one of your dearest friends? From my vantage point, he barely tolerated you.

Edited August 5, 2019 by 2727

[Quilt Fairy]

3 hours ago, mjc570 said:

Maybe they need to clean house completely in the vicarage (except for Dickens, of course), with some new priests and a new housekeeper. 

Well, after that shit-show I'd be happy to see Will go, but I fear they're setting us up to lose Leonard. 

What a stupid, ugly episode (although I do think the manner of death was interesting and I don't see how it would even be considered murder).   I spent half of the episode wondering who Will's father was, as he and Geordie come into a dining room with 2 couples, Will doesn't introduce them to Geordie, and each of the men are equally abusive to Will.  For a while I thought the man that eventually died was Will's father and that he had remarried and Will had slept with his step-mother.  It probably only didn't happen that way because the writers didn't think of it, because if they had, it would be in here.  Afterwards, Geordie is talking to some woman in the library and I couldn't figure out who the heck she was.  Eventually I concluded that she was the dead man's wife, but suddenly she had different colored hair and she's wearing totally different, non-blood-stained clothes.  

And poor Leonard.  I don't even know what to say.  I can see that he was pushed to his breaking point, but I just don't think he would have responded by turning that mean and petty and spiteful.  Although I find it really hard to believe that the Arch-bishop is any more concerned about an 8yo stealing a few pennies than Will was.  Sidney's backstory of why he became a priest made sense to me, but Will's does not, and he came off as very immature. 

As to Cathy's story, I thought that was handled pretty true to life for the time.  She's been told by the store manager that she just has to put up with it, and by the time she confesses to Geordie, it's become her fault in her mind as well.  It's no good saying "It's my fight, not yours" because Geordie considers it his job - his duty - to protect her.  I think a lot of husbands would think that way even today.  If he's going to be able to deal with it without killing the guy or doing something less drastic that might cause him to lose his job has yet to be seen.

Lastly, would someone tell the damn BBC that 6 episodes do not make a season?  (Or 3 episodes, in the case of Sherlock Holmes.)  Yes, yes, I know it's their thing but that doesn't mean I have to like it.  Between this and streaming services that drop a season all at once, waiting a year or (sometimes much) more between seasons is the norm and it's hard to maintain interest.  Also, while younger people may not mind this, at my age I'm continually hoping to make it to the next season of The Queen or Westworld. 

Dickens can't carry the show by himself.  And he's not as cute now that he's not a puppy anymore. 

Edited August 5, 2019 by Quilt Fairy

[JudyObscure]

I agree with every word Quilt Fairy said right down to not knowing who the woman on the couch was. What a mess.

I can put up with one confusing mystery, but sweet Leonard turning into a petty,  unforgiving, tattle-tale who terrifies little girls?  No way. 

I still like Mrs. C and I think she had been just looking for an excuse like the need for "rigor" to go back and make up.  Leonard turning her out was another out of character moment.

Will giving the girl back the money she stole from the collection plate was equally stupid -- poor confused little thing.  Will riding his motorcycle to his home rather than ride in the car with Geordie was silly.   Will telling his father he was going to be arrested and then leaving him alone was stupid for several reasons.  Will not showing up for services without so much as a phone call to Leonard, unlikely.  Will's anger issues, way over the top.

Come on writers, we have no reason to like this character and you're turning us against our favorites.

Next week -- Dickens turns mean and bites everyone.

[Kohola3]

Gah, the writers must have all been turned down for raises or something and are taking it out on the viewers.  Ridiculous and unbelievable stories (Sydney heads off to America with someone he just met), and everything dark and evil. I realize these are mysteries but what's with the abusive fathers using god as their excuse?  Last week that horrible Mennonite (go, Granny!) and this week Will's father.  And then Leonard who was the one (somewhat) bright spot turns into a shrieking shrew. 

Throw in poor Cathy and her troubles and this is not a show that leaves me feeling anything but totally depressed.

Heaven knows what they will throw at us next week in the finale - it barely got moving and it's over.  I suspect it will be the murder of Cathy's boss and Will being the one to investigate and get Geordie off the hook.  I think I'll pass.

[QuinnM]

54 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

Heaven knows what they will throw at us next week in the finale - it barely got moving and it's over.  I suspect it will be the murder of Cathy's boss and Will being the one to investigate and get Geordie off the hook.  I think I'll pass.

This week we had an abortion, so many personal betrayals I can't count, a suicide, fraud, elder abuse, by the the time the episode ended I was happy that some deacon got punched in the face.  

This was so off from all of the previous Granchester episodes that it hardly felt like the same show.  I agree, next week Dickins will bit someone and worse I will be satisfied that the victim got bit.  I don't think that's the way I want to spend time.

[Desperado]

I was very disappointed in the last episode, for the reasons you all mentioned. I really enjoyed our interaction here, but the immaturity and lack of redeeming qualities of the new vicar is doing me in. I’m out.

[QuinnM]

2 minutes ago, Desperado said:

I was very disappointed in the last episode, for the reasons you all mentioned. I really enjoyed our interaction here, but the immaturity and lack of redeeming qualities of the new vicar is doing me in. I’m out.

Well I'm not out ... yet.  But the immaturity and pettiness of the deacon is pretty outstanding as well.  He's worried about a penny when he's a walking contradiction to his entire faith?  He has a problem with Mrs C because she doesn't like his sin?  If his truth comes out he'll be tossed on the street and yet he has no problem dragging the bishop in to chastise the vicar?  I think the writers are trying to have the vicarage implode and in the future all Granchester will be at the police station.

[magdalene]

I am actually more interested in Will now with this episode and learning his troubled back story.

Look at things from Will's POV: He leaves to deal with a mess his father made. His father man slaughters a guy and then instead of facing the music takes the cowards way out and kills himself. Then Will returns to Grantchester only to learn that the Deacon has tattled on him to the bishop for what is a minor issue - an issue that should have been discussed instead of getting the bishop involved.

I was very disappointed in Leonard this episode.  It was very small  of him to report the new Vicar like this.  Very petty.  Obviously Will should not have given in to his violent temper and punched Leonard in the face.

I think it's clear by now that this show is not Father Brown where the main characters are always decent and doing the right thing. There is never going to be a Vicar who doesn't have ISSUES.  Sidney had his boozing and promiscuity.  The new guy has a hair trigger temper he has trouble controlling.  Welcome to Grantchester.

[tootsie]

I agree with just about everything written in this forum about the most recent episode. Not a favorite. Not for me, at least. I completely opted out of Grantchester last year because I found the characters and story lines to be boring, off-target, and often silly. I had hopes this year for a new vicar and...here's the kicker...new mysteries. Because ... follow me on this, writers...it's called Masterpiece MYSTERY. Hardly a puzzle to be found anywhere in the dead-guy plot. Would the hidden saddle count as any kind of clue? Did the victim put on his pjs with a nail in his head? Really? I must have missed something amid all the focus placed on peripheral petty behavior of unlikable people. Part of it is that I'm simply not invested in these characters (not watching a show for a year or 2 can have that effect, I guess) and so don't care much about them. The contrast of writing and content is especially noticeable to me because Grantchester followed immediately on the scheduling heels of the fine Endeavour. Btw, wasn't the father played by the actor who was Inspector Lynley in all the tv adaptations of author Elizabeth George's detective novels? 

[sistermagpie]

I was just laughing by the end of this ep when Leonard got punched in the face. Bad choice of words there, but he was already treading on thin ice calling in a bishop to scold the guy for a child stealing a few pennies. LOL! As others have said, do you really want to start going down that road when you're committing a much bigger sin in the eyes of the church? One Mrs. C already knows about? Thanks to your completely not discreet boyfriend? I almost expected Will, when confronted with his own issues, to just point at Leonard and say, "He's gay."

That said, I do sort of like Leonard getting pissy, even if it almost seems like he's just mad he'll never get to be the lead in the show. Mrs. C dumps him, he's not good enough to be the vicar, and the new hot vicar's already the favorite of Geordie and the parish despite being an actual flake. Leonard is the only person focused on the church and he worked really hard for the job and had to give it up even though he's the only one with a love life to rival Mrs. C's in terms of being proper...if only it wasn't with men. 

Glad I wasn't the only one confused about Will's family at first. Perfect opportunity to introduce all the characters and instead we're just supposed to muddle along to figure out which abusive guy in a tux is the dad and that the woman I thought was Will's sister except she seemed to kinda have an American accent?--was the victim's wife. I even missed exactly how he got a nail in his head.

I can understand why Will's got anger issues but it doesn't speak well of him that the person he chooses to punch is the little guy. When his father asked for some time to freshen up he might as well have said he needed some time to blow his brains out. How do I understand his father in a few scenes better than Will does? It's not like his mother, too, hadn't just made it clear she'd hurt anybody rather than have people know they're actually poor. 

Oh, and did Will actually give the kid back the money she stole? WTF is that? I get not being angry at her but why on earth would you give her the money back? Beyond that he was triggered by her begging him not to tell her father? 

Okay, that did remind me that I did like how Leonard was the one telling her how sin was important and would keep her out of heaven when Mrs. C was saying the same thing. Easy for Will to see God as just wanting to go around forgiving people when he's obviously never committed any sins his family couldn't roll with. He slept with a married woman and got her pregnant at 17 and shared a prostitute with his father on his 16th birthday and still is mostly resented for being "holier than thou."

[Sarah 103]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I was just laughing by the end of this ep when Leonard got punched in the face. Bad choice of words there, but he was already treading on thin ice calling in a bishop to scold the guy for a child stealing a few pennies. LOL! As others have said, do you really want to start going down that road when you're committing a much bigger sin in the eyes of the church? One Mrs. C already knows about? Thanks to your completely not discreet boyfriend? I almost expected Will, when confronted with his own issues, to just point at Leonard and say, "He's gay."

There's a part of me that wondered if Leonard was pushing Will to a breaking point on purpose. A self destructive impulse is the only explanation I could think of. It would have been so easy for Will to tell the bishop that Leonard was gay. 

[MaryHedwig]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

He slept with a married woman and got her pregnant at 17 and shared a prostitute with his father on his 16th birthday and still is mostly resented for being "holier than thou."

I think Will was the one who was 17, not the married woman. In fact, isn't an adult sleeping with a 17 year old a crime?

[sistermagpie]

54 minutes ago, MaryHedwig said:

I think Will was the one who was 17, not the married woman. In fact, isn't an adult sleeping with a 17 year old a crime?

Sorry yes meant Will was 17. I doubt it would have been considered a crime.

1 hour ago, Sarah 103 said:

There's a part of me that wondered if Leonard was pushing Will to a breaking point on purpose. A self destructive impulse is the only explanation I could think of. It would have been so easy for Will to tell the bishop that Leonard was gay. 

That does make sense. He certainly seems to be trying to get some reaction even if he doesn't know what or why. There was a lot of scenes with people saying just the wrong thing to people in this ep like Mrs C talking about the lack of vigour.

[dargosmydaddy]

I like that we got Will's back story, and I'm fine with it being a troubled one, but like Sidney's departure, Will's story development has been very rushed. I wish we had gotten just the introduction to Will's family/ history and the story with the abused/ wrongly accused servant, and they had saved Will's father's suicide for next season. Of course I realize TPTB didn't know they were necessarily getting another season, and it's hard to get guest stars back, but that's still no excuse for the poor plotting. The whole episode felt rushed.

As for Leonard, I totally got his "tattling" on Will as stemming from his frustration (particularly Will's disappearance and him having to cover the sermon), wanting to prove himself (look, I can stick up for myself! I do have rigor!), and wanting to get back at Will because he believed Will put him down to Mrs. C. What I don't get is why Mrs. C implied this in the first place (her whole visit was odd... she seemed ready to try to make amends, then quickly decided she couldn't, and felt the need to hint that Will had put down Leonard even though Will hadn't?). And I agree that Leonard freaking out about the little girl was way OOC; they could have found a better way to set up the whole "Leonard and Will have different philosophies"/ "Leonard needs something to tattle on Will about" story.

7 hours ago, tootsie said:

Did the victim put on his pjs with a nail in his head?

Apparently... He also walked up the stairs in front of Will and Geordie with the nail; I noticed his gait seemed a little odd. I know I've heard stories (and it's been dramatized on medical shows like Grey's Anatomy) of people accidentally shooting themselves in the head with nail guns and seeming perfectly fine in the aftermath (i.e. talking and not bleeding), but it seems rather unbelievable that a person shoving him could replicate that kind of force, and that the trauma wouldn't be obvious at first yet the nail would then just fall out when he laid down.

3 hours ago, MaryHedwig said:

I think Will was the one who was 17, not the married woman. In fact, isn't an adult sleeping with a 17 year old a crime?

Nowadays it would be. Back then, not so much. Not to mention the double standard of an older woman seducing a teen boy being seen as much less of an issue as a man/ teenage girl. I was definitely getting creepy vibes from the lady, and uncomfortable vibes from Will, like she had taken advantage of him.

And I found the actress's "American" accent even worse than Violet and co.'s southern accents from the beginning of the season.

Edited August 6, 2019 by dargosmydaddy

[Quilt Fairy]

The closed-captioning had the word as "rigor" not "vigor".  I wasn't quite sure of the difference so I looked it up:

Quote

As nouns the difference between rigour and vigour is that rigour is severity or strictness while vigour is active strength or force of body or mind;

While "vigor" works better for almost every time it's in the dialog, if in fact it was "rigor" that Mrs C used to Leonard, it might explain why he needed to call the Bishop and show he could be the strict one. 

[JudyObscure]

Yes, I heard rigor.

[Kohola3]

I always have to use closed captioning so it came across as "rigor".  Makes more sense overall.

I do think the whole penny-stealing thing was poorly handled by both of them.  Leonard could have spoken more gently to the child to explain why that was wrong.  And Will had no business giving the money back since it just reinforced the bad behavior.  I guess with only 6 episodes we need to be hit with a sledge hammer to get the point in as little time as possible.

[BlackberryJam]

I’m not interested enough for a second viewing, but right before the punch, wasn’t Leonard saying the exact same words that Will’s father had said about Will being a disappointment? 

I know Leonard is a much beloved character but for me he’s a poorly written bumbler. And they have him dressed and styled as a charmless PeeWee Herman. Making him pissy and snotty and vindictive actually gives him a personality other than tortured, emotionally fragile, gay male.

Mrs. C wanted Leonard to need her, be useless without her. She wanted him to say that. He saw it as an insult. Two people who communicate that poorly and understand one another not at all don’t have a strong friendship. 

[dargosmydaddy]

2 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

I know Leonard is a much beloved character but for me he’s a poorly written bumbler.

Aw, he's definitely a bumbler, but I don't think he was poorly written through the first few seasons. I adored season one Leonard, who readily admitted he was more of a book person than a people person, but was unfailingly loyal to Sidney and Mrs. M. Him going to the police station with Mrs. M pretending to be her son to create a distraction for Sidney was one of my favorite funny moments of season one. I also loved him allowing Geordie's daughters to turn him into a "princess" at the picnic at the end of that season. 

This season we've got a few glimpses of old Leonard (he made a Dostoevsky reference in the one sermon when he thought he was getting the vicar job, and he was pretty funny in a very Leonard-esque way in the episode where he helped Geordie on the case), and some of the changes certainly make sense considering everything that's been going on with him, but mean-to-little-girls/ unable-to-communicate-effectively-with-Will Leonard is definitely annoying.