The Marvel Cinematic Universe: The Avengers, etc.

[Anduin]

2 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Now they just have to find a kid for him to spend the movie protecting.

Franklin? Age down Johnny? It's doable!

Or, how about Kid Thing! I like that idea.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Anduin

[baldryanr]

9 hours ago, arc said:

Marvel Comics has precedent for teen geniuses, from RiRi Williams to Shuri to Amadeus Cho. And in the Ultimate comics line that initially inspired the first phase of the MCU, Reed Richards was like barely out of high school or something. Definitely appallingly young.

That's something the MCU has been happy to continue.  Shuri has been shown to be on par with Tony and Bruce.  Cassie somehow became an expert working with Pym tehnology even though Hank, Hope, and Janet were dust for 5 years and all she had to go on were Hank's journals.  Peter (and Ned, to a lesser degree) are geniuses.  Super-genius Reed is definitely the type of guy who would have finished school early.  If they go with jackass know-it-all Reed, then forget the PhD entirely and just have him do his own thing because he sees the degree as a waste of time.  Tony Stark probably didn't have a doctorate since he was too busy partying and inventing to do it, plus no one ever referred to him as Dr. Stark.

[shrewd.buddha]

Not that Marvel cares what I think, but I believe that if the MCU refuses to create stand-alone movies -- or a separate cinematic universe that is NOT connected thru a multiverse -- they will continue to have diminishing returns.  The blob of connected content is too large for the average movie-goer to consume. People will stay away rather than do research or watch a Disney+ show before going to see a Marvel movie. 
Things haven't improved with Disney's involvement. The marketing and cross-branding is out of control. Sometimes it seems as if there is more emphasis on hiding 'easter eggs' in movies than telling a solid, satisfying story. 

I had high hopes for The Eternals to be that stand-alone, disconnected movie. The Jack Kirby characters didn't exist in the super-hero Marvel universe (until sales needed a boost).  It could have been a Dune or Blade Runner experience. But, nope.. Instead we got Kit Harington teasing the Black Knight, Harry Styles teasing Starfox and a voice teasing Blade.
It also introduced another set of characters that should have some knowledge or involvement in all the near-earth-ending events that occurred in the last ten years. 

I can remember a time when Marvel Comics published a wide array of genres: horror, romance, sci-fi, and humor.  It seems to me that someone at the top of the Disney-Marvel food chain is going to have to make a drastic choice in their priorities:  entertaining movies or cash-grab content for their streaming service.  

Edited November 16, 2023 by shrewd.buddha

[Cobalt Stargazer]

3 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

The blob of connected content is too large for the average movie-goer to consume. People will stay away rather than do research or watch a Disney+ show before going to see a Marvel movie. 

Yeah, but isn't that just more complaining for not much reason? WandaVision was six hours long, less if you subtract time for the credits, which I thought were much too long for thirty to forty-five minute episodes.  Ms. Marvel was about the same, though I don't know specifics about the other shows. Even allowing that you "have to" watch the movies (which....no, you don't, and even if you did they generally explain things through bits of exposition in later films rather than an elaborate setup.) I thought the explanation of why Clint's hearing was gradually declining was particularly well-done, a short montage of him being caught near explosions that resulted in permanent damage. Boom, it's explained and it took something like a minute.

Again, even deciding that all of the content is something that has to be watched, it kind of sounds like, "I have the attention span of a housefly, so don't give me homework*." That research can always come in the form of an online recap, unless it's a badly written one. Once again, it took a decade to build up to Endgame, but either we keep forgetting that or it's not necessary to watch every freaking thing that happened previously to get why everyone is fighting the big purple dude who turned half of the universe into  into dust. No one ever says, How does Captain America: The First Avenger tie into Thanos' quest to "restore balance" to the galaxy? I mean, it does, but where did we put our patience that we want everything to lead to the end right now or else it's boring?

Have all of the shows been excellent? No. I loved WandaVision and Hawkeye, tolerated FATWS, and enjoyed the rest enough to watch through to the end. I might be an outlier in that all you have to do is make me care. Make me care, and while I might have issues with individual stories, you will always have a fan in me. It's when I stop caring that's my Kryptonite.

Marvel doesn't care what I think either, and honestly I would not want to be in charge of anything anyway given what parts of the fandom have turned into. It's become as bad (worse? maybe) than the Star Wars crowd, because no one seems to hate this franchise more than the people who claim to be fans. Maybe if we could stop expecting everything to be an Endgame level event, we'd be happier. Maybe.

*That is not directed at anyone here, or even anyone in particular. But that really does sound like inventing something to be mad about, since the streaming content isn't going anywhere and can be watched whenever. Lord, it's not that damn complicated.

[shantown]

2 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

Not that Marvel cares what I think, but I believe that if the MCU refuses to create stand-alone movies -- or a separate cinematic universe that is NOT connected thru a multiverse -- they will continue to have diminishing returns.  The blob of connected content is too large for the average movie-goer to consume. People will stay away rather than do research or watch a Disney+ show before going to see a Marvel movie.

1 hour ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Yeah, but isn't that just more complaining for not much reason? WandaVision was six hours long, less if you subtract time for the credits, which I thought were much too long for thirty to forty-five minute episodes.  Ms. Marvel was about the same, though I don't know specifics about the other shows. Even allowing that you "have to" watch the movies (which....no, you don't, and even if you did they generally explain things through bits of exposition in later films rather than an elaborate setup.) I thought the explanation of why Clint's hearing was gradually declining was particularly well-done, a short montage of him being caught near explosions that resulted in permanent damage. Boom, it's explained and it took something like a minute.

(Admittedly I am a casual MCU fan and haven't watched everything but) For me it's not about the amount of time it would take to watch everything - it's that when they've said everything is connected I expect things to be connected. I agree that The Eternals should have happened in a different universe. The explanation of "Oh, we can't interact with the humans" was flimsy at best. And now there's a giant robot head sticking out of the ocean and a giant six-eyed robot appeared in the sky and there has been nothing else said about that. Nothing about the change to the Earth itself, or where the sky robot came from and why it didn't affect gravity at all, nothing about the superheroes that were fighting weird monsters on a beach.

It's why to me, as a casual fan, putting all these stories on the same Earth makes no sense. Why doesn't SHIELD (or whoever) know about the Eternals? Why was Mr. Fantastic never there to help Bruce or Shiri or anyone solve anything science-y? Why wasn't that X-Man girl that kills anything she touches out there trying to play tag with Thanos?

Anyway, I'll still pick and choose what to watch and none of this REALLY matters, but for me it is one of the reasons the MCU is stumbling. Even if you do watch everything (because for me it's not about the time, it's about the content itself) things aren't interacting in a meaningful way, so why bother watching all of it?

[arc]

I don’t think even most comics fans read every single Marvel comic every month. Hell, considering the longtime problem that too many of their heroes are concentrated in NYC, it’s been a longstanding issue that, for example, Daredevil should ask for the Avengers’ help, etc, and usually doesn’t. He doesn’t because it’s the Daredevil comic most of the time and the company’s output isn’t literally only company-wide crossovers all the time. The “it’s all connected but also not that connected” is just part of how the superhero universe genre works. =/

[Morrigan2575]

4 hours ago, shantown said:

Why was Mr. Fantastic never there to help Bruce or Shiri or anyone solve anything science-y? Why wasn't that X-Man girl that kills anything she touches out there trying to play tag with Thanos?

Fantastic Four/X-Men aren't in this Universe, looks like MCU is bringing the FOX properties home via the Mutli-Verse Saga.

[Kel Varnsen]

11 hours ago, baldryanr said:

That's something the MCU has been happy to continue.  Shuri has been shown to be on par with Tony and Bruce.  Cassie somehow became an expert working with Pym tehnology even though Hank, Hope, and Janet were dust for 5 years and all she had to go on were Hank's journals.  Peter (and Ned, to a lesser degree) are geniuses.  Super-genius Reed is definitely the type of guy who would have finished school early.  If they go with jackass know-it-all Reed, then forget the PhD entirely and just have him do his own thing because he sees the degree as a waste of time.  Tony Stark probably didn't have a doctorate since he was too busy partying and inventing to do it, plus no one ever referred to him as Dr. Stark.

I feel like the super genius kid is a bit played out. I could actually see Reed Richards being an academic type. It would make a nice contrast to Tony who was a genius but also rich so he could do whatever he wanted. A guy who was a super genius but not rich might want to rely on doing research at a university to get funding.

7 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Yeah, but isn't that just more complaining for not much reason? WandaVision was six hours long, less if you subtract time for the credits, which I thought were much too long for thirty to forty-five minute episodes.  Ms. Marvel was about the same, though I don't know specifics about the other shows. Even allowing that you "have to" watch the movies (
 

The other issue with having so many properties and stories on the go is fans can potentially have to wait a really long time for pay offs on some plotlines. Shang Chi came out in 2021 and if someone was a big fan of it and wants to know the mystery of the rings it looks like they might have to wait until 2027 or later. It was only 2 years between Iron Man and Iron Man 2. I don't think you can expect people to wait that long to finish a story and not lose fans. And that's just one example of a bunch of unfinished stories that are kind of up in the air.

6 hours ago, shantown said:

(Admittedly I am a casual MCU fan and haven't watched everything but) For me it's not about the amount of time it would take to watch everything - it's that when they've said everything is connected I expect things to be connected. I agree that The Eternals should have happened in a different universe.

Or they could have not done Eternals at all. I mean it wasn't terrible, but it didn't seem super necessary. And all the open ended plot threads in that movie sort of go with what I said above about not getting a payoff.

[arc]

I guess the benefit of casting Pascal is it leaves young Reed open for later in case they want to do the supervillain (comics spoilers)

Spoiler

The Maker, who is pretty new as comics characters go, but he’s certainly a pretty good super-smart supervillain.

 

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

they could have not done Eternals at all. I mean it wasn't terrible, but it didn't seem super necessary.

Oh, it was terrible 😆  how do you FUCK up Sersi and Icarus like that...I'm still annoyed.  My girl, Sersi deserved better 😤 and I still hate Dane Whitman (I've never gotten over that love quadrangle).

Plus the whole thing doesn't even make sense, why make Eternals Robots? Thanos is a freaking Eternal/Deviant,  they even introduced Thanos' brother (Starfox/Eros) in the post credit/cut scene... but, they're robots

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Morrigan2575

[shrewd.buddha]

2 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

The other issue with having so many properties and stories on the go is fans can potentially have to wait a really long time for pay offs on some plotlines. Shang Chi came out in 2021 and if someone was a big fan of it and wants to know the mystery of the rings it looks like they might have to wait until 2027 or later. 

The teased but unresolved storylines and characters are piling up and are now backlogged. The actors playing The Eternals will need to be immortal if they expect a follow-up to that movie's cliffhanger ending.  The Young Avengers won't be young anymore at the current rate of production.  The MCU has created a lot of anticipation of things to come -- but if they don't deliver there is likely to be some unhappy campers.

Edited November 17, 2023 by shrewd.buddha
Grammar

[Enigma X]

My biggest issue with The Eternals is that they were made robots.

[tv echo]

Taika Waititi Confirms He's Not Directing Thor 5 — But Chris Hemsworth is in Talks for Return
BY HOAI-TRAN BUI   NOVEMBER 14, 2023
https://www.inverse.com/entertainment/taika-waititi-taking-a-break-from-thor 

Quote

In an interview with Inverse, Waititi confirmed he’s not currently working on Thor 5, which would be a hypothetical follow-up to his divisive Thor: Love and Thunder. Waititi said that while he heard star Chris Hemsworth and Marvel are in talks about making a fifth Thor movie, Waititi “needed a break from that.”

“It’s a very draining process working on these films for two and a half years and nonstop,” Waititi tells Inverse.
*  *  *
But Waititi says while he’s taking a break from Thor to focus on these other projects, he still has affection for the God of Thunder and doesn’t rule out returning. “It’s just about when I would be able to fit that in,” he says.

Edited November 20, 2023 by tv echo

[Morrigan2575]

Wonderful news. Waititi got a little to high on himself. 

[Bruinsfan]

I think we needed a break from Watiti more than he needed a break from Marvel films.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

4 hours ago, rmontro said:

Other problems are, of course, superhero fatigue, inserting politics into the movies, and lazy writing (which includes ignoring the source material).

Except the source material is political. I'm going to tread lightly, but it's just the truth, and the people who are yelling the loudest about "wokeness" either have never read a Marvel comic, or.....something a lot less pleasant. There's a reason Steve Rogers was never portrayed as a virulent racist despite the era he was born in, the "man out of time" thrown forward seventy years. It's bad enough we've already got a fandom that condemns the women out of one side of its mouth and excuses the men with the other, that Carol Danvers and I guess Nebula are the only remaining 'first wave' female characters left. All I'm saying is that you can't have it both ways, no politics and adhering to the vision that Stan Lee and everyone else behind the comics had in mind, because that was the vision.

[tv echo]

‘Loki’ Creator Michael Waldron To Write Marvel Studios’ ‘Avengers: The Kang Dynasty’
By Justin Kroll   November 27, 2023
https://deadline.com/2023/11/loki-michael-waldron-marvel-studios-avengers-kang-dynasty-1235638887/ 

Quote

EXCLUSIVE: Michael Waldron has been tapped to write Marvel Studios‘ Avengers: The Kang Dynasty. Waldron had already been set to write Avengers: Secret Wars, the installment that would follow Avengers: The Kang Dynasty and will now write both Avengers sequels. Waldron has become one of Marvel’s most trusted creative minds having previously created and served as showrunner of season 1 of Loki as well as writing Doctor Strange in The Multiverse of Madness and the move make sense to the studio to have him pen both films. Marvel Studios president Kevin Feige will produce.

Deadline recently broke that Destin Daniel Cretton would not be directing the film in order to focus on his other Marvel projects like the TV series Wonder Man. Avengers: Kang Dynasty is far on the theatrical release schedule, dated to kick off summer on May 1, 2026, giving Waldron more then enough time to pen a script as the director search begins. The movie will precede Avengers: Secret Wars on May 7, 2027 which will wrap up the Marvel Cinematic Universe’s Phase 6 features.

Edited November 28, 2023 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Taika Waititi ‘Had No Interest’ in Directing a Marvel Movie, Took ‘Thor: Ragnarok’ Because He Was ‘Poor’ and It Was ‘A Great Opportunity to Feed’ His Kids
By Zack Sharf    Nov 27, 2023
https://variety.com/2023/film/news/taika-waititi-thor-poor-needed-money-marvel-1235809647/ 

Quote

Taika Waititi revealed on a new episode of the “SmartLess” podcast that he had no interest in joining the Marvel Cinematic Universe as a director. The filmmaker has directed two MCU movies: 2017’s “Thor: Ragnarok,” which is widely considered one of the best Marvel movies, and 2022’s “Thor: Love and Thunder,” which is one of the franchise’s most polarizing. The Oscar winner said he originally accepted the “Ragnarok” gig for money, as he had just had his second child.

“You know what? I had no interest in doing one of those films,” Waititi said. “It wasn’t on my plan for my career as an auteur. But I was poor and I’d just had a second child, and I thought, ‘You know what, this would be a great opportunity to feed these children.'”

“And ‘Thor,’ let’s face it — it was probably the least popular franchise,” he continued. “I never read ‘Thor’ comics as a kid. That was the comic I’d pick up and be like ‘Ugh.’ And then I did some research on it, and I read one ‘Thor’ comic or 18 pages, or however long they are. I was still baffled by this character.”

When asked if Marvel executives were scared to bring him in, Waititi answered: “I think there was no place left for them to go with that. I thought, ‘Well, they’ve called me in, this is really the bottom of the barrel.”

“Thor: Ragnarok” ended up earning critical acclaim and $853 million at the worldwide box office. “Love and Thunder” topped out at a still-strong $760 million worldwide. Waititi recently told Business Insider that he will most likely not return to direct another “Thor” movie because his slate is booked for the next six or so years.

“I know that I won’t be involved,” he said about “Thor 5” directing duties. “I’m going to concentrate on these other films that I’ve signed on for … But I love Marvel, I love working with them. I love Chris.”
*  *  *
Hemsworth told Entertainment Weekly over the summer that nothing is official regarding his Marvel return. He wants a potential “Thor 5” to be “unpredictable,” but he also doesn’t want to risk playing Thor for so long that Marvel fans start rolling their eyes.

“I’ve got to be careful how I word that because I have no idea what’s happening in the next phase,” Hemsworth said. “There’s always conversations …Before anything is official, people are throwing around ideas. But officially, I don’t know.”

Edited November 28, 2023 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Chris Hemsworth and Wyatt Russell/Kurt Russell are scheduled to be guests at CCXP 2023 (São Paulo, Brazil) on Nov. 30 - Dec. 3, 2023, as part of cast panels for Furiosa and Monarch: Legacy of Monsters, respectively - it's likely that they'll be interviewed by media and asked about the MCU, Thor 5 and Thunderbolts...
https://www.ccxp.com.br/programacao/# 

Edited November 29, 2023 by tv echo

[rmontro]

On 11/24/2023 at 6:59 PM, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Except the source material is political. I'm going to tread lightly, but it's just the truth, and the people who are yelling the loudest about "wokeness" either have never read a Marvel comic

I've been reading comic books for over fifty years, so you can't say I've never read a Marvel comic.  And the Lee/Kirby era was my favorite, and you're right, there was some politics in there.  But there was never any sense that a point of view was being shoved down your throat.  Of course Lee was very much against racism, but that isn't a controversial topic at all.  Today the same issue would be more along the lines of should the police be defunded, and that is a HUGE difference from the more generic moral lessons Lee was writing about.

The truth is Disney has an agenda, and they are pushing that agenda, at the cost of storytelling, and it shows.

[kiddo82]

 

https://www-forbes-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2023/11/14/we-truly-are-living-in-a-multiverse-of-madness-and-it-needs-to-stop/amp/?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQGsAEggAID#amp_tf=From %1%24s&aoh=17000162945778&csi=0&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.forbes.com%2Fsites%2Ferikkain%2F2023%2F11%2F14%2Fwe-truly-are-living-in-a-multiverse-of-madness-and-it-needs-to-stop%2F

If everything matters then nothing does.

Edited December 3, 2023 by kiddo82

[rmontro]

9 hours ago, kiddo82 said:

If everything matters then nothing does.

I agree, I think the multiverse concept is hurting the superhero genre movies.  It's cute in a way for a movie or two because it allows you to bring in older stars like Tobey McGuire as Spider-Man or Michael Keaton as Batman.  But to base an entire phase, or worse, multiple phases on it just dilutes everything to no real stakes.  If there are multiple realities, why should we care about a particular one?

You can then threaten all the multiverses, but that's overkill.  Build good characterization and tell good stories, that would be better.  

[Kel Varnsen]

21 hours ago, rmontro said:

I agree, I think the multiverse concept is hurting the superhero genre movies.  It's cute in a way for a movie or two because it allows you to bring in older stars like Tobey McGuire as Spider-Man or Michael Keaton as Batman.  But to base an entire phase, or worse, multiple phases on it just dilutes everything to no real stakes.  If there are multiple realities, why should we care about a particular one?

You can then threaten all the multiverses, but that's overkill.  Build good characterization and tell good stories, that would be better.  

I think that multiverse stories are a lot like time travel stories (or it was all a dream stories) in that they are incredibly hard to do well and most of the time are just sort of a crutch to let writers tell whatever kind of crazy crap story they can think of without having to worry if it makes sense or not. Marvel barely got away with doing a time travel story so I am not sure why they are going so all in with the multiverse story right after that. I watched Loki season 2 and if it wasn't for the strong performances it would have been really bad since all the multiverse/timeline stuff seemed like nonsense.

[arc]

On 12/3/2023 at 4:09 AM, kiddo82 said:

 

https://www-forbes-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2023/11/14/we-truly-are-living-in-a-multiverse-of-madness-and-it-needs-to-stop/amp/?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQGsAEggAID#amp_tf=From %1%24s&aoh=17000162945778&csi=0&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.forbes.com%2Fsites%2Ferikkain%2F2023%2F11%2F14%2Fwe-truly-are-living-in-a-multiverse-of-madness-and-it-needs-to-stop%2F

If everything matters then nothing does.

Quote

I also kept hoping that Zack Snyder and DC would do the Injustice Superman story, giving us a fun, dark alternative take on the Man of Steel.

LMAO. The piece started off bad by not getting the fun and heart of EEAAO, but this is where I knew the author’s takes are awful. “What if Superman is bad” is one of the core conceits of The Boys, and Invincible, and Brightburn, and also quite a lot of joyless comics too preoccupied with being shocking to be good. Let Superman be good. (Which I gather is James Gunn’s approach, but I digress)

Comics have been doing multiverses for decades. DC started their crossovers between Earth 1 and Earth 2 with their first “Crisis” storyline years before going all-out with “Crisis on Infinite Earths”, which reset their multiverse into a single universe, and then was gradually, then suddenly undone over the years because subsequent writers and editors simply couldn’t resist. And all of that was fine! What the audience cares about is the mainline version of the characters. Yes, theoretically there’s an infinite set of MCU-adjacent universes where May Parker didn’t die, but that didn’t cheapen her death in the movie.

Also, comics characters rarely stay dead. Even most of the most permanent deaths have ended up not being permanent: DC’s Barry Allen and Jason Todd, Gwen Stacy… at this point Uncle Ben might be the only one not brought back to their mainline universe in the comics.

Marvel’s What If? series did bring one character from one alt universe to another permanently, but that was semi-forgiveable since that version of the char was dead in the second universe and the first universe was a total wasteland with no one left to be abandoned by the character. Having already used that move, hopefully they won’t permanently undo the MCU deaths of major characters, but more importantly, the actors are aging out of those roles and probably can’t sign on for another ten years even if they wanted to.

[Trini]

27 minutes ago, arc said:

LMAO. The piece started off bad by not getting the fun and heart of EEAAO, but this is where I knew the author’s takes are awful. ...

I'm not sure if it's the same guy, but Forbes has a history of bad takes. Didn't click/read the article, but good to know I can keep on ignoring them.

[Raja]

3 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I think that multiverse stories are a lot like time travel stories (or it was all a dream stories) in that they are incredibly hard to do well and most of the time are just sort of a crutch to let writers tell whatever kind of crazy crap story they can think of without having to worry if it makes sense or not. Marvel barely got away with doing a time travel story so I am not sure why they are going so all in with the multiverse story right after that. I watched Loki season 2 and if it wasn't for the strong performances it would have been really bad since all the multiverse/timeline stuff seemed like nonsense.

I think that they wanted mature mutants interacting with the starring Avengers. The problem being that they waited to long and the stars playing Avengers are aging out. And those characters may revert to the B list before the next generation of actors playing mutants are seen 

[baldryanr]

He's not coming back, he's not!

I mean, the real reasons are because RDJ wouldn't want to, the audience would instantly hate it, etc.

I mean, there is some drama to be mined if an alternate version accidentally made it to the prime universe and got stuck since he'd be forced to live in a world that would always see him as an inferior copy.  That would be a very comic book thing to do.

 

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, baldryanr said:

He's not coming back, he's not!

I mean, the real reasons are because RDJ wouldn't want to, the audience would instantly hate it, etc

Yea why would he want to. Thanks to the Marvel movies he has made more money than he could ever hope to spend in 10 lifetimes. Plus he's 58 so why the hell would he want to spend 2+ years shooting and promoting a movie, when the one thing the giant truck load of money he could earn from coming back won't give you is more time with you family and other loved ones.

[rmontro]

15 hours ago, arc said:

Comics have been doing multiverses for decades. DC started their crossovers between Earth 1 and Earth 2

I'm not against the multiverse as a concept.  I used to love those old Earth 1/Earth 2 JLA vs. JSA stories where they brought the old heroes back.  I just don't think they should base a whole series of movies on them over several years, it's too much.

[rmontro]

On 11/16/2023 at 5:47 PM, Morrigan2575 said:

Fantastic Four/X-Men aren't in this Universe, looks like MCU is bringing the FOX properties home via the Mutli-Verse Saga.

I don't like that idea.  The FF and the X-Men should be from the same universe as the other Marvel heroes.  Sure, go ahead and bring in the Fox X-Men you want for the member berries, like Jackman's Wolverine and Kelsey Grammar's Beat.  But when you get around to introducing the Marvel versions, they should be from "this" universe.   

Making the FF from another universe especially seems disrespectful.  The FF was the first Marvel superhero comic, it was the first comic Stan Lee created when he started his genius run of writing.  It was the foundation for everything to come.  I liked the idea of the FF being from the past, but had been stuck in the quantum realm.  It's not perfect by any means, but that way they could still pre-exist the other teams.

[Tenshinhan]

On 12/4/2023 at 3:05 PM, arc said:

Also, comics characters rarely stay dead. 

This isn't really true, at least in regards to the main characters and protagonists.  It's more like those characters rarely ever die in the first place.  Villains and supporting characters maybe, but even then it's usually only after years and years that they return to life.

Also, movies are not comic books.  The difference between mediums means that the nature of storytelling will not be the same, and the audience's expectations will also be different.

[arc]

9 minutes ago, Tenshinhan said:

This isn't really true, at least in regards to the main characters and protagonists.  It's more like those characters rarely ever die in the first place.  Villains and supporting characters maybe, but even then it's usually only after years and years that they return to life.

Peter Parker, Superman, Barry Allen, Jean Grey, 99% of all mutants several times, most of the core X-men when Hickman introduced the reincarnation protocols to stop death being a plot point in X-comics, Matt Murdock, Kamala Khan (she got better in just two months!), Bruce Wayne ... this trope is so common TV Tropes doesn't just have a sub-page for comic books, but a sub-sub page for the DCU and another two for Marvel (616 and the Ultimate universe)

Quote

Also, movies are not comic books.  The difference between mediums means that the nature of storytelling will not be the same, and the audience's expectations will also be different.

Yeah, that's fair.

[Tenshinhan]

35 minutes ago, arc said:

Peter Parker, Superman, Barry Allen, Jean Grey, 99% of all mutants several times, most of the core X-men when Hickman introduced the reincarnation protocols to stop death being a plot point in X-comics, Matt Murdock, Kamala Khan (she got better in just two months!), Bruce Wayne ... this trope is so common TV Tropes doesn't just have a sub-page for comic books, but a sub-sub page for the DCU and another two for Marvel (616 and the Ultimate universe)

Most of those characters only ever died starting in recent years of comic book history.  Superman dying was a huge event that was never going to last.  Although it may be a popular trope in present day, for the majority of comic book history characters dying was never really a thing.

[arc]

Yes in one sense it's recent, but in another sense Superman died 30 years ago.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, rmontro said:

I don't like that idea.  The FF and the X-Men should be from the same universe as the other Marvel heroes. 

They probably will be once they are fully introduced. They already established that Kamala is a mutant in the MCU. 

[Morrigan2575]

3 hours ago, arc said:

most of the core X-men when Hickman introduced the reincarnation protocols to stop death being a plot point in X-comics,

I read about that or aaw a YT video on it and I really don't like. Not fond of what they did with Moira either.

[Raja]

1 hour ago, Dani said:

They probably will be once they are fully introduced. They already established that Kamala is a mutant in the MCU. 

I tend to agree but then there is the big glaring problem of Magneto where almost nobody wants to see lose his heritage as a Holocausts survivor.  Thankfully nothing has quite matched what the Nazis did so a time skip like Tony Stark from Vietnam to Afghanistan origin.

But then as a single mutant, with maybe a couple of other extended life span mutants who kept a low profile I think that can be worked around as sort of X-Files and not in the open as the enhanced became in the MCU after Loki lead the attack on New York.

[Kel Varnsen]

7 hours ago, Raja said:

I tend to agree but then there is the big glaring problem of Magneto where almost nobody wants to see lose his heritage as a Holocausts survivor.  Thankfully nothing has quite matched what the Nazis did so a time skip like Tony Stark from Vietnam to Afghanistan origin.

Yea you could just say that his magnetic powers slowed down the aging process. Or just not use Magneto as a way to be kind of separate from the original X-men movies.  Like how we had 2 MCU Spider man movies before the Green Goblin showed up and even then he was from another timeline.

[Tenshinhan]

I agree about not using Magneto at all, but the Green Goblin comparison isn't quite fitting.  The Goblin's presence in the Spidey mythos isn't as strong or integral as Magneto in X-Men.

[tv echo]

Book review | ‘MCU - The Reign of Marvel Studios’ review: The thrilling big business of superheroes
NIDHI GUPTA   DECEMBER 10, 2023
https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/lifestyle/books/book-review-mcu-the-reign-of-marvel-studios-review-the-thrilling-big-business-of-superheroes-11881581.html 

Robert Downey Jr.’s Third Act: “He’s Lived a Complicated Life. He Understands the Stakes”
BY ANTHONY BREZNICAN    DECEMBER 3, 2023
https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2023/12/robert-downey-jr-cover-story 
 

[rmontro]

Rumors are Pedro Pascal will be playing Reed Richards.  I really didn't care for this at first, and I'm still not sure I see it.  But after thinking it over awhile, maybe it will be okay, as long as they treat the FF with the respect the team deserves for its historical place in Marvel.

Richards should really take the place of Tony Stark as the central figure in the MCU, and Pascal has the star power to do that.  Only thing is, when you looked at Robert Downey Junior, you SAW Tony Stark from the comics come to life.  I'm not sure that's the case with Richards and Pascal.

[BetterButter]

Jonathan Majors Fired By Disney/Marvel Studios After Assault Guilty Verdict; Actor Had Played Kang The Conqueror

[AimingforYoko]

Well, I liked Majors as an actor, unfortunately he's a POS.

The thing with Kang is you can recast pretty easily.

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, BetterButter said:

Jonathan Majors Fired By Disney/Marvel Studios After Assault Guilty Verdict; Actor Had Played Kang The Conqueror

Interesting, I wonder if they will recast Kang/Immortus/He who remains or if they will just rework the overall storyline to write Kang out. It would be hilarious if the next time Kang shows up in a movie he is instantly killed and the camera pans over to reveal it was Vicor von Doom that killed him. Even better if he sets up some time travel blocking technology.

[arc]

58 minutes ago, AimingforYoko said:

Well, I liked Majors as an actor, unfortunately he's a POS.

The thing with Kang is you can recast pretty easily.

THR suggests actors might be wary of taking a role where the previous guy was so publicly fired, but I think a lot of actors would make any sacrifice to get a multiple blockbuster movie contract. Anyways, THR also says Marvel could also pivot altogether to some other big bad, noting that "Avengers: The Kang Dynasty" has already been internally renamed to "Avengers 5".

Story-wise, Marvel isn't in a bad place. (spoilers for Quantumania and Loki s2)

Spoiler

Ant-Man Quantumania finished with Ant-Man defeating Kang and Loki s2 finished with Loki end-running around Kang's most dangerous variant He Who Remains.

(yes, there is that Quantumania mid-credits scene, but we could just assume the post-Loki TVA is really good at dealing with Kang variants. I say pair Mobius up with Doctor Strange if we want a little more TVA onscreen.)

 

Edited December 18, 2023 by arc

[Kel Varnsen]

18 minutes ago, arc said:

THR suggests actors might be wary of taking a role where the previous guy was so publicly fired, but I think a lot of actors would make any sacrifice to get a multiple blockbuster movie contract

I guess that might be a concern, if you are an actor who might get arrested and then convicted for domestic violence. Otherwise I think most actors probably won't be too wary.

Edited December 19, 2023 by Kel Varnsen

[MadyGirl1987]

I think Disney/Marvel was smart to wait to see the outcome of the trial to act with regards to Majors. They were obviously trying to avoid another James Gunn situation, and, while I am not a lawyer, wouldn’t it be opening themselves up for legal trouble(ie unlawful termination) if they fired him and then he was found innocent? The fact they fired him so quickly shows that they were considering different situations, and what routes they might need to take.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I guess that might be a concern, if you are an actor who might get arrested and then convicted for domestic violence. Otherwise I think most actors probably won't be too wary.

Yeah, it seems like a reach to think many actors would pass up Marvel money over this. It’s way more likely that Marvel would be hesitant to plan so much of their future on one actor. They were really fortunate to make it all the way through the infinity saga without a massive scandal or death throwing things in to case. 

 

2 hours ago, MadyGirl1987 said:

They were obviously trying to avoid another James Gunn situation, and, while I am not a lawyer, wouldn’t it be opening themselves up for legal trouble(ie unlawful termination) if they fired him and then he was found innocent?

No. There is no way Disney doesn’t write their contracts to allow them to part ways with an actor for nearly any reason (barring discrimination against a protected class). The James Gunn situation was very different.

[GHScorpiosRule]

12 hours ago, MadyGirl1987 said:

then he was found innocent?

There is no such thing. There is guilty and not guilty. Not guilty doesn't necessarily mean innocent. Just that the State couldn't prove their case, unless defense shows proof otherwise.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

19 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Interesting, I wonder if they will recast Kang/Immortus/He who remains or if they will just rework the overall storyline to write Kang out. It would be hilarious if the next time Kang shows up in a movie he is instantly killed and the camera pans over to reveal it was Vicor von Doom that killed him. Even better if he sets up some time travel blocking technology.

John Boyega has been suggested as a recast, but that's just on social media.