The Marvel Cinematic Universe: The Avengers, etc.

[Bruinsfan]

I'm not sure that NYC would be that singled out anymore in the wake of Johannesburg, Sokovia, and what happened with Thanos, but then again the Snap would have disrupted society and various economies on a level that would put the World Wars to shame. It might be that the musical was an example of what resources can be devoted to the Arts years afterward.

[ICantDoThatDave]

On 4/11/2023 at 3:53 PM, Dani said:

He also says it to Red Skull in The First Avenger. Cap was used for propaganda in WWII and a legend after he was believed to be dead so I don’t think it’s a stretch to imagine it would have become public knowledge. The Howling Commandos were likely to have heard him say it. 

True, I forgot about the Red Skull one - but again, there are no witnesses, other than Hydra agents.  I think expecting The Howling Commandos to have heard him say it is a stretch - he would have had to pause in the middle of a (presumably losing) battle or firefight to say it to an enemy that could actually hear him.

I'm not saying it's impossible that the general public would associate "I can do this all day" with Cap, just that from what we were shown on screen, I found it highly implausible.

[BetterButter]

‘Blade’: Mia Goth Joins Mahershala Ali In Marvel Pic

[Anduin]

1 hour ago, BetterButter said:

‘Blade’: Mia Goth Joins Mahershala Ali In Marvel Pic

I wonder if she'll be playing a vampire. Given her minimal or even lack of eyebrows, she creeps me out a little. That's probably good for a vampire.

[Bruinsfan]

Parker Posey's angularity and scarily thin frame worked well in that respect for Blade: Trinity, so you may be on to something.

[truthful]

I've been unsure about the concept of Kang, having not read anything about him in the comics, and if course the impact of Thanos in the MCU. 

 

However recently I've been watching a children's television series called The Animals of Farthing Wood and I finally saw an angle on this Kang character.

 

I won't go on about what the show is about, you can easily google it. Anyway in the last series the animals who live in this English wildlife park have to deal with these plague of rats. Now all these animals could easily kill these rats. But the problem is with these rats is once they kill a hundred a hundred more will just take their place. 

And it made me think how Kang is like a rat. By himself I think the hero's could easily dispose of him. But how do you defeat a guy who if you kill a hundred of him a hundred more of him could take his place? And he only needs to kill the heroes once.

I don't know about you but the concept of this seemingly endless battle against this Kang rat like character is more intriguing and thrilling than them battling Thanos. 

[Raja]

1 hour ago, truthful said:

I don't know about you but the concept of this seemingly endless battle against this Kang rat like character is more intriguing and thrilling than them battling Thanos. 

However the real world is busting through and the draw of watching one big name actor portraying the many rats in different forms might just be over. And casting others, the bigger stars tend to do a one off villain role, just to have her or a talking alligator, announce at some point that my name is "Kang", which might as well be "villain antagonist" might work for a weekly TV series but I don't think it would work for a series of movies and miniseries spread over years.

[rmontro]

I've heard rumors now that Guardians of the Galaxy III isn't likely to make any money, and I would find that very surprising.  If GotG can't succeed for the MCU, that doesn't bode well for the future of the franchise.  

I can't recall the source, but this was based on rising film budgets (inflation is a bear), along with fairly consistent week two drop offs for Marvel movies.

[tv echo]

Edited April 20 by tv echo

[Captain Carrot]

On 4/19/2023 at 9:52 PM, rmontro said:

I've heard rumors now that Guardians of the Galaxy III isn't likely to make any money, and I would find that very surprising.  If GotG can't succeed for the MCU, that doesn't bode well for the future of the franchise.  

I can't recall the source, but this was based on rising film budgets (inflation is a bear), along with fairly consistent week two drop offs for Marvel movies.

I liked the last few Marvel movies, but I have to admit they weren't the most satisfying movies ever released. So, I'm not certain how much that will compare to GoTG 3 if we get Gunn at his best.

Honestly, there's been stories about Marvel/Comic Book movies in general being on the way out for years. They tend to use every movie that under performs as proof that it's finally happening. (Sooner or later they will be correct in the same way that Westerns haven't been a dominant genre for decades).

[rmontro]

20 hours ago, Captain Carrot said:

Honestly, there's been stories about Marvel/Comic Book movies in general being on the way out for years. They tend to use every movie that under performs as proof that it's finally happening. (Sooner or later they will be correct in the same way that Westerns haven't been a dominant genre for decades).

Yep, but we still get a really good Western every now and then.  Hopefully that will be the case when/if the superhero movies fade out.

[BetterButter]

Marvel’s ‘Blade’ Nabs ‘True Detective’ Creator Nic Pizzolatto for Writing Duties

[Morrigan2575]

10 minutes ago, BetterButter said:

Marvel’s ‘Blade’ Nabs ‘True Detective’ Creator Nic Pizzolatto for Writing Duties

Oh that sounds promising but, I thought they already had a writer?

[Kel Varnsen]

On 4/12/2023 at 1:50 PM, Bruinsfan said:

I'm not sure that NYC would be that singled out anymore in the wake of Johannesburg, Sokovia

Not sure about Johannesburg, but I would imagine that tourism is a way bigger and more important part of the economy of NYC compared to Sokovia. So if people stop going there because of the Hulk attacks and alien invasions, Broadway is going to take a hit.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

3 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Not sure about Johannesburg, but I would imagine that tourism is a way bigger and more important part of the economy of NYC compared to Sokovia. So if people stop going there because of the Hulk attacks and alien invasions, Broadway is going to take a hit.

Didn't it look like a packed house when Rogers: The Musical was showing? I would have to rewatch that episode, but there seemed to be a fair-sized crowd in attendance in addition to Clint and his kids. We can always decide it had more to do with it being Steve-centric or whatever, but the 'Thanos was right' graffiti in the men's room aside, there seemed to be plenty of people going back to their lives as much as they could.

[tv echo]

The following MCU stars made it onto TIME's The 100 Most Influential People of 2023 list:

Michael B. Jordan
https://time.com/collection/100-most-influential-people-2023/6269439/michael-b-jordan-2023/

Zoe Saldaña
https://time.com/collection/100-most-influential-people-2023/6269460/zoe-saldana/

Angela Bassett
https://time.com/collection/100-most-influential-people-2023/6269879/angela-bassett/

[tv echo]

[Anduin]

So in terms of top-level cosmic sort of villains, where does the MCU go next? Scratch the High Evolutionary. Who's left? There's Galactus, Dr Doom, Annihilus, the Magus. Maybe the High Evolutionary can come back, is Kang completely gone? I've been saying this for years, sooner or later we'll get Paste Pot Pete or Stilt-Man. Just a problem with killing the villains at the end of the movies.

[Raja]

51 minutes ago, Anduin said:

So in terms of top-level cosmic sort of villains, where does the MCU go next? Scratch the High Evolutionary. Who's left? There's Galactus, Dr Doom, Annihilus, the Magus. Maybe the High Evolutionary can come back, is Kang completely gone? I've been saying this for years, sooner or later we'll get Paste Pot Pete or Stilt-Man. Just a problem with killing the villains at the end of the movies.

They have already announced the Kang Dynasty. How they replace Jonathan Majors as the Kang variants is the question 

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, Anduin said:

So in terms of top-level cosmic sort of villains, where does the MCU go next? Scratch the High Evolutionary. Who's left? There's Galactus, Dr Doom, Annihilus, the Magus. Maybe the High Evolutionary can come back, is Kang completely gone? I've been saying this for years, sooner or later we'll get Paste Pot Pete or Stilt-Man. Just a problem with killing the villains at the end of the movies.

The Kree Supreme intelligence is still out there and combined with the Kree military empire they should still be a threat.

[starri]

3 hours ago, Anduin said:

So in terms of top-level cosmic sort of villains, where does the MCU go next?

Depends on how closely they want to integrate the X-Men into the MCU.  Not so much Magneto, but they've got the Shi'ar, Phalanx, and Apocalypse, just off the top of my head.  And if they want to do a real throwback, Inferno touched on just about every character.

[Anduin]

21 minutes ago, starri said:

Depends on how closely they want to integrate the X-Men into the MCU.  Not so much Magneto, but they've got the Shi'ar, Phalanx, and Apocalypse, just off the top of my head.  And if they want to do a real throwback, Inferno touched on just about every character.

How could I forget about Apocalypse? I suppose I was avoiding the X-Men, but surely they'll pop up sooner or later. Anyway, those are good ones.

[Dani]

4 hours ago, Raja said:

They have already announced the Kang Dynasty. How they replace Jonathan Majors as the Kang variants is the question 

It would be pretty easy for them to recast. The only issue would be how the handle the scenes he already filmed for season 2 of Loki. 

Majors has a court date today. What happens there’re will probably determine what Marvel does.

[anna0852]

Avengers (partially) Assemble! Scarlett and Chris E went to visit Jeremy after his accident. And apparently the text chain between the original 6 is still going.

https://apple.news/A-7w2EQSsTgCamZt7OPcTvA

[tv echo]

[Bruinsfan]

Shame. That might be my favorite relationship between any of the Avengers.

[anna0852]

I don’t care what Gunn says. Nebula and Rhoadey absolutely keep in touch!

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, anna0852 said:

I don’t care what Gunn says. Nebula and Rhoadey absolutely keep in touch!

Does it matter what he says. I mean it's not like he is ever going to make another MCU movie.

[Anduin]

21 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Does it matter what he says. I mean it's not like he is ever going to make another MCU movie.

I just ignore him if he says something dumb. Sometimes I prefer my headcanon.

[Danny Franks]

14 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Does it matter what he says. I mean it's not like he is ever going to make another MCU movie.

He's going to be the latest person to fail to get DC's cinematic universe off the ground. I'm sure he'll enjoy the full control there, after being so whiny about the writing of Guardians characters in the Avengers movies, but he's on a hiding to nothing.

 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

6 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

He's going to be the latest person to fail to get DC's cinematic universe off the ground. I'm sure he'll enjoy the full control there, after being so whiny about the writing of Guardians characters in the Avengers movies, but he's on a hiding to nothing.

 

I don't know, I think Gunn had the right to complain. The Russos are the brain trusts who killed Gamora off and had Quill punch Thanos in the head, and we're still talking about that second thing. I've heard they discussed Gamora's fate with him beforehand, like asking for permission or whatever, but he did the best he could with the setup they left him with. The Guardians were "his" characters as far as the movies went, and given what he managed to do with The Suicide Squad after that first awful movie, maybe there's hope for DC yet.

[Raja]

31 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I don't know, I think Gunn had the right to complain. The Russos are the brain trusts who killed Gamora off and had Quill punch Thanos in the head, and we're still talking about that second thing. I've heard they discussed Gamora's fate with him beforehand, like asking for permission or whatever, but he did the best he could with the setup they left him with. The Guardians were "his" characters as far as the movies went, and given what he managed to do with The Suicide Squad after that first awful movie, maybe there's hope for DC yet.

I guess it falls under the shared MCU is different. Gunn was not directing the Guardians "franchise" with the power that directors normally weld,  just three episodes of the MCU.

In an ideal world as "owner" of the characters a shared direction effort, like different teams working on the American and Japanese sequences of Tora! Tora! Tora! would see Gunn responsible for writing Star Lord but in the end it was an Avengers movie and the Guardians were guest to interwoven with the Avengers, Dr. Strange and Spiderman. And on some movie podcast that I listen to "Avengers movie" is used interchangeably with MCU while Guardians is not.

[Spartan Girl]

2 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I don't know, I think Gunn had the right to complain. The Russos are the brain trusts who killed Gamora off and had Quill punch Thanos in the head, and we're still talking about that second thing. I've heard they discussed Gamora's fate with him beforehand, like asking for permission or whatever, but he did the best he could with the setup they left him with. The Guardians were "his" characters as far as the movies went, and given what he managed to do with The Suicide Squad after that first awful movie, maybe there's hope for DC yet.

I could have forgiven Gamora getting killed off if Nebula had been the one to kill Thanos the first time instead of Thor. She deserved it more, dammit!

[Morrigan2575]

4 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I don't know, I think Gunn had the right to complain. The Russos are the brain trusts who killed Gamora off and had Quill punch Thanos in the head, and we're still talking about that second thing. I'

I read that Gunn planned to kill Gamora in Vol 2 and Marvel stopped him.

[Kel Varnsen]

4 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Quill punch Thanos in the head

Which of course is basically the same reaction he had when he found out that Ego killed his mother. So regardless of it being good or bad, it is entirely in character for the Star Lord that Gunn created.

[MadyGirl1987]

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Which of course is basically the same reaction he had when he found out that Ego killed his mother. So regardless of it being good or bad, it is entirely in character for the Star Lord that Gunn created.

Yep. Even if they hadn't shown that reaction from Peter before, I never understood the hate for that moment. It is totally relatable that someone would snap and act on instinct in that moment. I suspect the fact that Chris Pratt has fallen out of favor with a lot of people has to do with the reaction. I see a lot more iffy decisions made by MCU heroes that deserve more backlash then this that don't get mentioned as much as Quill punching Thanos. Tony deciding to build another AI bot after Ultron went full murder-bot will never not be frustrating for me to watch.

[Dani]

2 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I read that Gunn planned to kill Gamora in Vol 2 and Marvel stopped him.

That’s true. He revealed that was is plan earlier this month. 

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Which of course is basically the same reaction he had when he found out that Ego killed his mother. So regardless of it being good or bad, it is entirely in character for the Star Lord that Gunn created.

Yep. It’s part of what I dislike about Quill as a character but It was completely consistent with his characterization from GoTG and GoTG2. 

 

30 minutes ago, MadyGirl1987 said:

Even if they hadn't shown that reaction from Peter before, I never understood the hate for that moment. It is totally relatable that someone would snap and act on instinct in that moment.

I hate that moment. It’s just not relatable to me. I actually hate it more because it is consistent with Quill as a character. 

Having said that, I do find blaming Peter for Thanos winning unfair. Even if Peter hadn’t punched him and they had gotten the glove off, I don’t see how they would have won. Even without the glove he’s still Thanos and extremely formidable. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

4 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Which of course is basically the same reaction he had when he found out that Ego killed his mother. So regardless of it being good or bad, it is entirely in character for the Star Lord that Gunn created.

Noted. However, it's basically the reaction Tony had in the final act of Civil War, which was also the Russos but perhaps a separate conversation. It's been five years since Infinity War happened, and if it was in character or not we're still talking about the time Star Lord lost his shit and half the universe disappeared. It may well have something to do with Chris Pratt as a person, I have no idea, but that doesn't affect whether or not the Russos are superior writers or directors than James Gunn. If you have to have another main character totally lose the plot just to tell the story, you're doing it wrong.

[Bruinsfan]

3 hours ago, Dani said:

Having said that, I do find blaming Peter for Thanos winning unfair. Even if Peter hadn’t punched him and they had gotten the glove off, I don’t see how they would have won. Even without the glove he’s still Thanos and extremely formidable. 

Dr. Strange put up a damn good solo fight against him when he had the Infinity Gauntlet and 4 of the stones. If he'd had a moment or two to clear his head and plan, they could have won once they got the gauntlet off.

[Dani]

3 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

If you have to have another main character totally lose the plot just to tell the story, you're doing it wrong.

Gunn uses the same plot where the Guardians make bad decisions and threatens everyone’s safety repeatedly throughout the first two Guardian movies (I haven’t had a chance to watch the third). Like Drax being blindly out for revenge in GoTG or Rocket stealing the batteries. It’s their MO which is why I don’t have a problem with Markus and McFeeley’s writing of Quill in Infinity War although I have a lot of other problems with their writing choices. 

11 minutes ago, Bruinsfan said:

Dr. Strange put up a damn good solo fight against him when he had the Infinity Gauntlet and 4 of the stones. If he'd had a moment or two to clear his head and plan, they could have won once they got the gauntlet off.

The reason I don’t think Quill made a difference is because the only way to win long term is to kill Thanos and I don’t think they could/would have been willing to do that at that point in the story.

Plus the movie tells us they would have failed with any scenario. What we saw was Strange with a clear head and a plan. 

[Kel Varnsen]

34 minutes ago, Bruinsfan said:

Dr. Strange put up a damn good solo fight against him when he had the Infinity Gauntlet and 4 of the stones. If he'd had a moment or two to clear his head and plan, they could have won once they got the gauntlet off.

The obvious plan would be to use one of those closing portals to chop his head off. The same way Wong chopped the other guy's arm off.

10 minutes ago, Dani said:

Plus the movie tells us they would have failed with any scenario. What we saw was Strange with a clear head and a plan. 

He said he saw something like 14 million scenarios and only one worked. Although with how long the time period between infinity war and End Game was shouldn't there have been an infinite number of scenarios?

[Dani]

2 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

The obvious plan would be to use one of those closing portals to chop his head off. The same way Wong chopped the other guy's arm off.

Could be a long wait to get the opportunity. 

4 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

He said he saw something like 14 million scenarios and only one worked. Although with how long the time period between infinity war and End Game was shouldn't there have been an infinite number of scenarios?

I guess but I would think plan a working would be a large chunk of those 14 million+ he saw. It’s lazy writing to fall back on everything happening because it had to happen that way but it’s what we have. 

[Bruinsfan]

Likely when he saw how many failures were racking up compared to the one timeline he came across with a win condition, he stopped looking when he hit 14 million +.

[tv echo]

Julia Louis-Dreyfus on Smoking Weed, Staying Married, and Bitching With Larry David
BY MARLOW STERN    MAY 9, 2023
https://www.rollingstone.com/tv-movies/tv-movie-features/julia-louis-dreyfus-interview-smoking-weed-marriage-bitching-larry-david-real-housewives-marvel-seinfeld-veep-1234712376/ 

Quote

How did you land the role of Valentina Allegra de Fontaine in the Marvel movies, and what’s it like to act in these massive superhero projects?
How did that happen? I met with Kevin Feige and Louis D’Esposito at Marvel because they wanted to meet, and we had a lovely conversation. My boys are huge Marvel fans — massive — and I was down to do it because I thought my boys would get a kick out of it. And then it happened! I had to immediately educate myself on this universe and this world, and who Valentina was — which I’m still doing, by the way, because there are so many characters and there are so many universes and these lives are so intertwined with one another. I’m by no means a scholar when it comes to the Marvel universe, but I’m working on it. And I was so delighted to jump into another genre. It’s an absolute gas.
*  *  *
Are you signed to a 20-picture deal, or how long will you be Valentina?
For a while, it seems!

Robert Downey Jr. Almost Lost Iron Man Role to This 2000s Action Star
By Richard Nebens    May 13, 2023
https://thedirect.com/article/robert-downey-jr-iron-man-lost-role 

Quote

Marvel Studios president Kevin Feige gave a commencement address at the graduation ceremony for the University of Southern California (USC) on Friday, May 12, where he revealed new information about Robert Downey Jr.'s casting as Iron Man.
*  *  *
"When we were casting the role of Iron Man, we looked at so many different actors. We had to find the perfect mix of heart and strength and charisma. Being our first Marvel film out of the gate, the stakes could not have been higher. The success of the film and the future of our entire studio rested on the shoulders of this one person."
*  *  *
"And it was not an easy task, but together with my team and our casting directors and our director, Jon Favreau, we culled down our list, we pinpointed the right guy, and we extended an offer to our top choice - an actor who checked all of those boxes and who we were confident would be a huge hit. And his name, of course, was Clive Owen. He passed. He was not interested."
*  *  *
"And that is the unwritten rule of life. Not getting your first choice might just be the greatest thing that can happen to you. Because you know what’s better than getting your first choice? Getting the right choice. And in our case, of course, that choice was Robert Downey Jr., and the first movie we ever made as a studio ended up being one of the best-reviewed and highest-grossing movies of the year."

Edited May 15 by tv echo

[BookEater]

Clive Owen?! That would've been a completely different take on Tony Stark, than RDJ's version. I can't imagine Owen's Tony being the bombastic, larger than life version we got.

I'm curious about what his performance would've been though.

[Spartan Girl]

On 5/13/2023 at 4:50 PM, Dani said:

That’s true. He revealed that was is plan earlier this month. 

But Gunn wouldn’t have killed off Gamora in such an insulting way that validated Thanos’ “love” for her. And he sure as hell would have given us a more genuine love declaration between Peter and Gamora after meticulously building up their slow-burn romance. Vol 2 left it as Gamora subtly acknowledging “okay there’s something between us but we aren’t quite there yet”, but in IW all of a sudden it’s  “I love you more than anything in this life”?! Even for an About to Die Love Declaration, it felt way too OOC for her.

Edited May 17 by Spartan Girl

[tv echo]

These MCU stars will be at this upcoming comic con in San Antonio in July...

[Dani]

3 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

But Gunn wouldn’t have killed off Gamora in such an insulting way that validated Thanos’ “love” for her. And he sure as hell would have given us a more genuine love declaration between Peter and Gamora after meticulously building up their slow-burn romance. Vol 2 left it as Gamora subtly acknowledging “okay there’s something between us but we aren’t quite there yet”, but in IW all of a sudden it’s  “I love you more than anything in this life”?! Even for an About to Die Love Declaration, it felt way too OOC for her.

I mostly like Gunn as a writer and a director but I don’t have as much faith in him as you. If Gamora had died when he planned I would 100% expect it to be a fridging to motivate Peter. I have massive issues with how Gamora was handled in Infinity War and Endgame but I also have issues with Gunn’a writing of women. All the Drax and Mantis parts of GoTG2 really taint my overall opinion of him despite thinking he is a brilliant writer and director over all.  

[tv echo]

'I'm grateful for my firing from Marvel': James Gunn on OneMan
JOSEPHINE GRIVEA 4 MAY 2023
https://www.oneman.gr/synentefxeis/eimai-evgnomon-gia-tin-apolisi-mou-apo-ti-marvel-o-james-gunn-sto-oneman/ 

Quote

"My only role at Marvel from now on is to be a good friend of Kevin Feige and there for him whenever he needs me." This is what James Gunn quickly stated in OneMan, in a room in Le Bristol in Paris where we were for the European Gala Event of Guardians of the Galaxy Vol.3.
*  *  *
The MCU has become huge as a franchise. Do you feel responsible for what you present?
Gunn: I feel the same responsibility I would feel anyway, even if I made a million-dollar independent film. I put my 100% and make sure there is nothing left unused on the table. I'm doing all the preparation I need to do to make the best story possible. Then my work stops and the rest begins.
*  *  *
Marvel and DC look like competitors, but how do you see it?
Gunn: While I was doing movies at Marvel, maybe a DC movie would come out and it wouldn't get good reviews. As a competitive guy that I am, my tendency in those moments was to say, "yes!". But Kevin said to me, look, we don't want bad superhero movies out there. They spoil the piazza. If good movies come out in general, then they push people to go to theaters. Especially right now in between. If bad movies come out, they deter people from cinema. So I'd rather see good movies from both studios.

And maybe less?
Gunn: Yes, I think it's worth thinking about the idea of having less. Or generally less content. Because we also have the series, and so the experience becomes loaded for the audience.
*  *  *
Looking back at everything that happened with your tweets, how do you think about it now?
Gunn: In a sense it was a terribly painful time, and there are times when I remember it when I say, "Oh my God, why were you so stupid?" On the other hand, I am also grateful for that time, because I think it came at a time in my life when I needed it. I had forgotten why I make movies. What was important to me. I also didn't know how much my people loved me. I was distracted by that. When this happened, I was suddenly the hard-working person, who could rely on his status and fame to get love. Suddenly I realized that they had the most wonderful people by my side. My partner who is now my wife, my parents, Chris Pratt, Dave Bautista, Karen and Pom. Everyone supported me. You sometimes think that people love you because you have power, but in this case it just wasn't the case. They loved me because they just loved me for me. He was there no matter what. Whatever the outcome. They didn't support me because I make movies. This has been a huge life lesson for me and I am truly grateful.

Edited May 17 by tv echo

[swanpride]

I have to agree with the assessment that Gunn isn't really all that good in writing women. Let's be honest here, the best written women in the GotG franchise ended up being Nebula, and she had her best moments in Endgame. A lot can be said about the way Gamora as a sacrifice was handled, but I don't really think that it is as much of a deal breaker as some people think it is. Because for me, it is a misconception that love and abusive relationships are exclusive. Love isn't this perfect thing a lot of people see in it, most versions if it are inherently toxic. Or, to put it differently, a problematic love is not the outlier, but achieving a love which isn't problematic is the goal we need to strife for.