Season 8 Discussion

[Kbo]

On 10/26/2019 at 10:41 AM, Absolom said:

Ratings this week:  209 K viewers and a .04 rating.

I need to empty the DVR.  I haven't seen an episode yet this round.

You haven’t missed anything, I fast-forwarded through most of this episode. I’m losing interest to even hate watch, it’s all so fake and relentlessly cheery I can’t stand it.  Still enjoy the snark, though 😉

[Sew Sumi]

8 hours ago, floridamom said:

With all of these family members involved in their dress boutique business, they most likely each profit $.10cents a dress. How is this worth it? Do they have an occupational license to mail order clothing?

I imagine that Kelly, Katie, and Chaney get to keep the dresses they model. It looks like Chad created the website and got the warehouse together because Erin told him to.

Edited October 27, 2019 by Sew Sumi

[Summer]

That damn family vacation has been splashed all over all of their social media EXCEPT Tori and Bobby...what is going on with those two?? Tori and Kade were definitely there but never saw Bobby once, could he have skipped it?   

And baby Willow  is very cute but such a serious looking baby, they post a lot of pics of her and I don't think I've seen her smile once ....but she's adorable and Kelton and Josie seems legit happy so I'll give Willow a pass on her grumpy baby face lol! 

[all fall down]

10 hours ago, Kbo said:

You haven’t missed anything, I fast-forwarded through most of this episode. I’m losing interest to even hate watch, it’s all so fake and relentlessly cheery I can’t stand it.  Still enjoy the snark, though 😉

I gave up watching over a year ago. So boring, and the same stuff over and over. I come here to find out what's going on and for the snark. 

[lookeyloo]

8 hours ago, christine falls said:

I gave up watching over a year ago. So boring, and the same stuff over and over. I come here to find out what's going on and for the snark. 

same here.  plus so scripted.  I know it will never happen but a few cameras placed strategically around their house (no bedrooms/bathrooms, obviously) and live streamed would be fun.  They'd eventually forget about the cameras.

[RebeccatheWriter]

21 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

I imagine that Kelly, Katie, and Chaney get to keep the dresses they model. It looks like Chad created the website and got the warehouse together because Erin told him to.

Chad didn't do the website, though he might have entered the data or helped them order the dresses. They are using a company (term is used loosely) called Johnson Media that has done the website for several of the couples and for Gil/Kelly, etc. They also do video work such as Lawson's music videos. 

Kelly has commented that she buys the dresses she likes from the girls because she doesn't want them for free. However, I have a feeling her grifting wouldn't need much encouragement.

[Sew Sumi]

Well, Chad definitely set up the warehouse. I saw Erin's posts about it. 😁

[RebeccatheWriter]

18 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

Well, Chad definitely set up the warehouse. I saw Erin's posts about it. 😁

No doubt. If it requires a hammer, he's on the hook for it. 

[RedheadZombie]

On ‎9‎/‎28‎/‎2019 at 10:18 AM, Lisa418722 said:

When Erin said she wished she could go back 5 years and wear a different dress (or something like that I wasn't going to go back and watch it) I had two thought: #1  guess they are going to be doing  vow renewal so that she can wear a different dress and #2 how is it that Chad has aged 20 years in 5 years?  I do worry about him and how much stress he is under

Then when Carlin tried on THE dress and loved it "but it was PINK!!!"   What?  Unless you are wearing a pure white dress people might think you kissed before you were married.  White does not mean virgin in today's world any more than a pink dress means you are a slut (their thoughts not mine). 

I don't watch the show, I just follow here.  It boggles the mind that Erin has been married five years, is pregnant with her fourth child, and has had several miscarriages.  Has she been non-pregnant for more than four to six months in her entire married life?

[SongbirdHollow]

On 10/28/2019 at 4:06 PM, Sew Sumi said:

Well, Chad definitely set up the warehouse. I saw Erin's posts about it. 😁

Huh. I assumed their stock was drop shipped. 

[Sew Sumi]

I've seen pictures of dresses on shelves.

[RebeccatheWriter]

3 hours ago, SongbirdHollow said:

Huh. I assumed their stock was drop shipped. 

I had assumed that too, but apparently not. They have video and photos showing them packing and shipping. 

[Sew Sumi]

No new episode tonight? My DVR didn't pick anything up.

[Adeejay]

I don't watch all the time, so I don't know if tonight's episode was a rerun, but it was new for me.  It was an hour.  They did the gender reveal for Josie and Kelton's daughter.  Plus, Tres brought  a girl for "I Love You" Day. 

[Sew Sumi]

Oh okay, that's a repeat. 

[floridamom]

I noticed that BUB isn't listed for next Thursday, 11/7 on UP. Has the season ended? Anyone know? thanks guys.

[Sew Sumi]

I have a new episode, "Baby Mamas and Bridesmaid Drama."

[andromeda331]

Its listed in my DVR for Thursday and in the guide for that for Xfinity and for 11/14 too.

[Sew Sumi]

I also see a new episode on the 14th. 

[Tikichick]

Am I not remembering correctly, or was I Love You Day originally about the siblings making gestures of love and appreciation to each other, sort of a Secret Santa that came with a note of what your sibling admires and appreciates about you?  Now it's become about romance and couples, with a ski trip bone thrown in to include the children and those without mates? 

[iluvobx]

5 hours ago, Tikichick said:

Am I not remembering correctly, or was I Love You Day originally about the siblings making gestures of love and appreciation to each other, sort of a Secret Santa that came with a note of what your sibling admires and appreciates about you?  Now it's become about romance and couples, with a ski trip bone thrown in to include the children and those without mates? 

That is what it was originally presented as.  Christmas in Feb and not in Dec.  Now it has turned into a "Valentine's" deal.  Interesting because most fundies do not believe in "pagan" traditions. ie:  Halloween, Valentine's Day, etc.

[drafan]

On 11/4/2019 at 2:30 PM, iluvobx said:

That  Now it has turned into a "Valentine's" deal.  Interesting because most fundies do not believe in "pagan" traditions. ie:  Halloween, Valentine's Day, etc.

Valentine's Day is probably an exception because it may produce BABIES!!!! Anything for BABIES!!!

Or now maybe courtships are included, because that will lead to weddings...which will lead to BABIES!!!

[Stefphill]

On 10/18/2019 at 8:53 AM, BitterApple said:

I just watched the latest episode and wow, Erin. You're hanging pictures and arranging knick-knacks. It is NOT your place to set the timeline for the job. That's up to Chad, who's doing all the heavy lifting. He looked like he wanted to cuss her out when she said they'd be done in two weeks. 

Is anyone else completely over Carlin and her dance lessons? We get it. Back, left, forward, right. I don't need ten minutes every week of various Bateseseses doing a box step. 

Watching Katie fly planes depressed me. She could have a great career as a pilot, but no, she'll be married to some Fundie loser and spitting out babies by next year. 

Bobby and Kelton make an adorable couple. Baby Kade is a sweetheart.

It’s funny you say that about Bobby and Kelton because I’ve thought the same (last years Thanksgiving episode in particular).  There is a certain chemistry there.  If they do like each other, I find it sad that they can’t be authentic about it. 

[Sew Sumi]

I'm wondering how Carlin's dress went from the first shop to Miz Renee. It looked like a totally different dress: no flowers, no PINK. 

The bridesmaids' dresses looked super cheap.

Edited November 8, 2019 by Sew Sumi

[Absolom]

Ratings this week:  209 K viewers and a .04 rating.  

[answerphone]

These girls were homeschooled and grew up in a huge family, yet (with the exception of Michael), they don't know how to cook, sew, arrange a kitchen or literally anything.

And they're expected to marry and produce babies right out of their teens.

Wait... They are talented at arranging hair and applying makeup.💃

[andromeda331]

I'm not surprised at all but Kelly sure wasted no time asking Michael to babysit. And of course Michael said yes. Come on Michael! Say no. 

I know nothing about fashion so I have to ask are any of those dresses they model in the episode considered fashionable? They all look so weird and had different designs in one. One or the other might have looked nice. But together? They looked terrible. 

Carlin's wedding episode next week is the season finale. 

[RebeccatheWriter]

9 hours ago, answerphone said:

These girls were homeschooled and grew up in a huge family, yet (with the exception of Michael), they don't know how to cook, sew, arrange a kitchen or literally anything.

And they're expected to marry and produce babies right out of their teens.

Wait... They are talented at arranging hair and applying makeup.💃

And have musical skills that seem more important internal to the family than outside those walls. 

What cracks me up is that they spend time on the messaging that Tori took over the cooking after Michael got married and left. She even said in one interview that some of the kids didn't like what she cooked but if they didn't, they could make something themselves. Yet after she got married she was all about how she couldn't cook at all. Carlin had her big scene with Michael after Kelly Jo's eye surgery, stating that she liked Michael being there because it was hard to cook for everyone alone (one of the extended scenes). Yet now she's back to not knowing how to cook at all.

In the original version of the show on TLC, Kelly Jo took the girls (Tori, Carlin, Josie, and Katie) to the store and taught them to make fried chicken. This was the infamous, "I don't have a fella," scene with Tori. Tori complained loudly the whole time, as did Carlin about taking the fat off the chicken and cutting it. Josie and Katie talked about how they loved cooking and wanted to learn more. Josie now claims she didn't know how to cook at all before getting married.

Kelly Jo apparently is not a good cook herself, having grown up on microwavable meals. Alyssa and Michael took on cooking at an early age and handled it for the family for several years. From what I have seen Michael cooking early on in the show, it would appear that Gil's mother (Jane) may have taught her.

I'm not one who puts much emphasis on traditional roles in marriage or life, but I do think that all of those kids need life skills. One of the reasons that Erin probably learned to cook after marriage was that she had a while before they were able to have a baby. With how fast they go from courting to engaged to married to baby, these girls aren't exactly giving themselves time to learn anything other than babymaking. 

_______

On another note, I realize that Carlin's over the top wedding is the theme this half season, but dang if this hasn't become the Carlin show. Every episode is at least 50% Carlin being overwhelmed about (fill in the blank).  

[lookeyloo]

Probably they can and do more than what is staged on the show. Scripted reality. Not a documentary. Would still be plenty to snark on!!

[3 is enough]

I absolutely hate it that women like Kelly and Michelle Duggar chose to have ridiculously large families and basically put all of the responsibility of cooking and maintaining the household on their daughters. No.  Just no. 
 

And for the life of me I cannot understand how the daughters all idolize their pathetic excuses for mothers.  I would have been so resentful if I had been raised as an indentured servant.

Don’t get me wrong, I am a big fan of kids having chores.  But being responsible for cooking the meals for a mega family is not a chore- it’s servitude.

These people disgust me.
 

[sATL]

On 10/18/2019 at 2:19 PM, Adeejay said:

I am curious as to why Bobby left the ministry. Did he get fired or did Tori want to return home?

just popping back in... I see my dvr missed the new season. However, watching last night thursday night football game (steelers vs. browns)  lets  just say was "shocking, history and precedent making"...

Bates - well, like many posts above... same old, same old...

RE: Bobby - he's not working in the church that Gil is (was) building ?

Any more medical updates on Micheala conceiving concerns ?

Edited November 15, 2019 by sATL

[RebeccatheWriter]

6 hours ago, lookeyloo said:

Probably they can and do more than what is staged on the show. Scripted reality. Not a documentary. Would still be plenty to snark on!!

For scripted it is pretty poor storytelling. The producers and cast need to stay consistent. After all, if you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything. 

[RebeccatheWriter]

1 hour ago, sATL said:

RE: Bobby - he's not working in the church that Gil is (was) building ?

Honestly, I doubt we will ever see that. Gil is the high priest/pastor without a bit of education on the ministry other than some pamphlets and observation of others. He's not going to hand over a job like that to his son-in-law who actually studied such things and would make Gil look bad at it. 

He gave Bobby odd jobs when Bobby first arrived in Tennessee. I'm talking sweeping the facility during construction and washing windows. Bobby's focus has been youth ministry, which isn't something that Gil would need since he's running a church that is labeled as a family church (no nursery, no division of ages, etc.). 

If he were to pass the torch to the next generation, it would likely be Nathan who took it on. Nathan has said he wants to preach and has done some at nursing homes and the like. It is a plum that Gil could dangle in front of him to encourage him to settle down with a wife and have a bunch of kids. That wouldn't be easy with the pilot stuff that Nathan does now. 

I know that there was some talk that Bobby was fired. But in recent social media stuff he's still wearing shirts from the church he was at before. If he was fired, I doubt that would be the case. Honestly, I think it was a combo of Tori wanting to be closer to family and UP offering more cash if they were filmed more. 

Edited November 15, 2019 by RebeccatheWriter

[Sew Sumi]

1 hour ago, sATL said:

just popping back in... I see my dvr missed the new season. However, watching last night thursday night football game (steelers vs. browns)  lets  just say was "shocking, history and precedent making"...

Bates - well, like many posts above... same old, same old...

RE: Bobby - he's not working in the church that Gil is (was) building ?

Any more medical updates on Micheala conceiving concerns ?

Yeah, the end of the game was... something. 

They haven't addressed Michael's fertility issues since they showed her getting that tubal procedure at Dr. Vick's. 

Bobby  is working as an apprentice plumber with Kelton. I guess it pays the rent. I agree that Bobby will never work for Gil; the latter refuses to put himself in situations where he might be upstaged.

[lookeyloo]

2 hours ago, RebeccatheWriter said:

For scripted it is pretty poor storytelling. The producers and cast need to stay consistent. After all, if you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything. 

Agree but seems to me they try different story lines and set ups - maybe for ratings 

[Absolom]

Ratings:  227 K viewers and a .05 rating.

[LynneH]

On 11/15/2019 at 1:04 PM, 3 is enough said:

I absolutely hate it that women like Kelly and Michelle Duggar chose to have ridiculously large families and basically put all of the responsibility of cooking and maintaining the household on their daughters. No.  Just no. 
 

And for the life of me I cannot understand how the daughters all idolize their pathetic excuses for mothers.  I would have been so resentful if I had been raised as an indentured servant.

Don’t get me wrong, I am a big fan of kids having chores.  But being responsible for cooking the meals for a mega family is not a chore- it’s servitude.

These people disgust me.
 

I could be wrong but the way I see it:  The children are taught to idolize their parents.  Also, they are very "sheltered" in regards to what other non fundie parents/families do.  They don't watch tv, they don't read newspapers, they don't read books, they don't go to school, they don't have friends outside of other fundies.  If they happen to be exposed to other non fundie people; they are told by their parents that it is "wrong" and goes against their religious teachings. 

[RebeccatheWriter]

On 11/17/2019 at 9:07 AM, LynneH said:

I could be wrong but the way I see it:  The children are taught to idolize their parents.  Also, they are very "sheltered" in regards to what other non fundie parents/families do.  They don't watch tv, they don't read newspapers, they don't read books, they don't go to school, they don't have friends outside of other fundies.  If they happen to be exposed to other non fundie people; they are told by their parents that it is "wrong" and goes against their religious teachings. 

Don't forget the fear factor. They aren't just told something is wrong (wearing pants, kissing before marriage, working for a heathen, choosing a career over marriage/babies, birth control), they are basically taught they will go to hell for it. Fear is a big part of the indoctrination process for them. Those non-fundies in the world aren't just bad, they are scary and evil. Even if it is some sweet old woman who works at the thrift store, she could have a darkness around her that would rub off on them if they got too close. 

Mommy and Daddy know best and know what God says about everything. After all, God has blessed them with children, a way to support themselves, etc. Those none believers are punished by not having a lot of children (being lonely) and having bad things happen to them. If something bad happens to these families, they are taught to pray harder and trust God's wisdom/timing/design. 

That's why it isn't easy or sometimes even possible for these men and women to leave their beliefs. Not only do they have to leave their families (if not physically, then emotionally), they have to be so sure that their parents were wrong and they are right, that they risk eternal damnation. You'd have to want to kiss before marriage pretty badly to risk that. 

[Sew Sumi]

Zach and Whitney kissed before marriage, and lightning didn't strike them down. How can't his siblings see this? Are they really that brainwashed?

[andromeda331]

5 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

Zach and Whitney kissed before marriage, and lightning didn't strike them down. How can't his siblings see this? Are they really that brainwashed?

But Zach still confessed to his parents that they kissed before marriage and had to tell his siblings that he messed up and was wrong and crap. He might think that was stupid now. He seems to be the only one to show any signs of disagreeing with his parents. The Winnie the Pooh in the first season, questioning his parents about what they did on their dates when they were training new chaperones.  He actually got a real full time job. I really think that only started with his botched first courtship. His parents set them up and spend his entire life that they knew the right way of everything, God wanted it and etc. Then he courted Sara Reith and it ended badly.  But it wasn't suppose to end badly. His parents told him it was the right way. He did exactly what they told him to in the courtship and it failed. He was hurt really bad and it was all their fault. He met Whitney a normal way and nothing happened. They courted but kissed and nothing happened. They married. He got a real job. The other kids have been screwed over by their parents but they don't seem to realize it. Poor Michael still thinks her mother is her best friend when really her mother used her to raise her kids and still uses her now. None of the girls seem to realize they married and have none of the skills they were suppose to have or resent their parents for doing so much. Except maybe Alyssa given Kelly's not so subtle hints to move home after Carlin got engaged and she said no. Do any of the girls realize their how completely messed up is that their parent don't do anything? That they don't know how to cook or do anything else? Do they ever wonder why now its okay to dance when it wasn't before? How do any of the younger kids feel when they see their parent fawning over and buying toys for their nephews and nieces when they won't do the same for them. How do they not see how messed up it was for Callie to be sobbing on Michael's wedding day because the only mom she ever knew was leaving, or Judson crying on Tori's wedding day. Zach seems to be the one that boys look up to and is it any wonder? He has a real job that pays his bills. He did the 'wrong" stuff and nothing happened. He ended up in a happy marriage.   

[Sew Sumi]

I didn't remember Zach having to confess his "indiscretions" to his siblings. I know he confessed to Gil and Kelly. I wonder if Whitney also confessed to her adopted parents, who were in the picture at the time.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Sew Sumi

[Absolom]

I don't think her foster/adoptive parents cared that they kissed.  They were just regular SBC who don't have all the fundie hangups just some of them especially about marriage equality.

[floridamom]

Wow, some truly outstanding comments here. I agree completely that Zach & Whitney are perfect examples of a 'more normal' meeting and courtship and the sky didn't fall in on them. Zach having to 'confess' kissing Whitney before marriage is a travesty. Gil and Kelly backpedaled a lot on this one. On camera, they said that is 'wasn't a sin TO KISS before marriage, but it COULD lead to other intensive things" before marriage and that they SIMPLY HAD A HIGHER STANDARD for their children...to marry completely chaste. Well, if kissing isn't a numero uno sin in the Lord's eyes, why, then have them confess a 'sin as if it were a sin'? These two are a piece of work...just like their 'sweet" best friends, Jim Bob & Michelle Duggar. I wish someone would bring the comments on this page directly to the older Bates children AND their parents and have them comment on this. Wow, once again, great guys. I could 'like this' 1,000 times. 

[andromeda331]

34 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

I didn't remember Zach having to confess his "indiscretions" to his siblings. I know he confessed to Gil and Kelly. I wonder if Whitney also confessed to her adopted parents, who were in the picture at the time.

Yes, he mentioned after confessing to his parents that he had to confess to his siblings and tell them that it was wrong and not to be like him.

[Sew Sumi]

So, kissing Whitney basically ended in a giant guilt trip. Pathetic.

[cereality]

While indoctrinating them with the idea that their only purpose in life was to be a wife and mother who produces children yearly and takes care of her man, Kelly certainly failed to impart that wives and mothers in traditional homes are expected to cook, clean, know a pot from a pan, and understand basic household logic that said pots and pans should reside someplace near the stove/oven because it isn’t your man’s job to teach you this. But what Kelly did impart fully was that a woman is to act as dumb and confused as possible with her headships – be it dad or fiancé – so that dad and fiancé know how much she needs them and couldn’t survive life without them. I mean Carlin’s performance at city hall last week to get her marriage license with simply stunning:

Dad’s name: Gil.  Gil: honey my legal name is Gilvin. Carlin: OMG really??? Uh you claim to be obsessed with your nieces/nephews – did you think Bradley Gilvin’s middle name was chosen out of thin air?

Mom’s name: Kelly.  Wait – right – did she change it? Uh – do you plan to change your FIRST name after your wedding? Shall we call you Courtney then?

SS #: OMG I have NO idea how anybody remembers SO many numbers, that’s just too many to remember, how would I do that??

Meanwhile Evan knew all those complex answers – his mother and father’s names, where his mother and father were born, and his own SS#. I mean she MUST marry this genius, as he will guide her through life . . . .

And on a different note – I’m fairly convinced Paine Construction will never turn a profit. Josie is posting all kinds of pictures of their home and they are making their home into an open concept. And who is there knocking out walls and putting up new dry wall – Chad and his crew – Trace and Jackson. You know for all these family jobs, he is expected to charge for parts and minimal labor and probably no profit or very minimal profit. And this isn’t some 1 hr job installing your new microwave on a weekend, these are multiple day jobs where he and 2-3 other guys work full time for days/a week. How exactly does he/Erin expect to be able to support a yearly pregnancy if he doesn’t have he ba!!s to make $$$$? The headship really can’t stand up to his wife and say – sorry on $$$$ and job matters, I’m the headship and I know we need to pull down $x/yr and I can’t take 2 weeks a month to be doing your family projects for free and still make that goal!?

[Tikichick]

Several times it's seemed to me that Whitney is actually the one who prioritizes the approval of Kelly (and Gil).  I'm sure a lot has to do with the fact that Zach actually has a real job with a schedule he does not dictate, but onscreen Whitney seems to very much desire to be firmly knitted into the overall Bates clan and seems to put a lot into being their sister.

[RebeccatheWriter]

6 hours ago, Tikichick said:

Several times it's seemed to me that Whitney is actually the one who prioritizes the approval of Kelly (and Gil).  I'm sure a lot has to do with the fact that Zach actually has a real job with a schedule he does not dictate, but onscreen Whitney seems to very much desire to be firmly knitted into the overall Bates clan and seems to put a lot into being their sister.

I think that acceptance is important to Whitney given her background (sketchy as the details are about her bio parents/the switch to the foster/adoptive parents/the switch back). Add in the fact that she is the first and so far only daughter-in-law, mother of the first grandchild, and not Kelly's first choice for a wife for Zach, she has put herself under some pressure to be accepted. She is much more accepted now than she was in the beginning when you could practically hear the fake attitude from Kelly Jo.

You can still see a bit of her desire for that close relationship though. For example watch how she will pick up on the older sisters or Kelly's vocabulary and use it several times. Or watch how she is usually the positive one in the dress buying or other situations. The sisters tend to be a bit catty or negative with each other. She always goes for the positive route. She seems to take cues from those around her, which is something most of us do, but she is more obvious about it. She never goes over the level of what someone else does or says.

Zach has at at times seemed over the whole thing with his parents. I think as the oldest child, he and probably Michaela remember days when the family was "normal" and when times were tougher because Gil left his steady job and they kept having babies. He seems to humor her desire to be around the rest of the family and to be active in their lives because he does really seem to adore her and want her to be happy. 

Even in the first episode of the show, she was over at the family house peeling potatoes and doing chores with the other older girls because she said she was "bored and lonely at home with Zach at work." I wonder if she will continue to be as wanting of a relationship with them all when Trace or one of the other guys gets married. She's kind of set the tone for daughters-in-law, but will it stick? 

[3 is enough]

23 hours ago, cereality said:

And on a different note – I’m fairly convinced Paine Construction will never turn a profit. Josie is posting all kinds of pictures of their home and they are making their home into an open concept. And who is there knocking out walls and putting up new dry wall – Chad and his crew – Trace and Jackson. You know for all these family jobs, he is expected to charge for parts and minimal labor and probably no profit or very minimal profit. And this isn’t some 1 hr job installing your new microwave on a weekend, these are multiple day jobs where he and 2-3 other guys work full time for days/a week. How exactly does he/Erin expect to be able to support a yearly pregnancy if he doesn’t have he ba!!s to make $$$$? The headship really can’t stand up to his wife and say – sorry on $$$$ and job matters, I’m the headship and I know we need to pull down $x/yr and I can’t take 2 weeks a month to be doing your family projects for free and still make that goal!?

Totally agree with this! Unless business is slow and they are working at Josie's to fill the time.  But I'm pretty sure Erin offered up Chad's services to Josie- that does seem to be the way she works.

Erin has been very quiet on Instagram lately- nothing since their anniversary on the 2nd.  Wonder if everything is ok.  With the new baby coming and the holidays just around the corner, a lack of income would be very stressful. 

[Sew Sumi]

Joy identified by name!