Last Tango In Halifax - General Discussion

[kassygreene]

Yes, this series is based on the creator's mother reconnecting with her lost love.  And they were very happily married for a few years, and then he died.  First season was lovely, second season worked, but now she's outpaced reality and must provide storylines for an ongoing series.  This is what is souring it for me, she's had to make the people mean or silly or stupid to keep plots going.

[grannygeek]

 

I've come to the view that she's a truly selfish, vile and hateful creature, with few redeeming qualities, and is now a character who I actively dislike and whose happiness I don't care about in the least.

 

Ditto.

Bitch.

Also greedy and conniving as I recall from house purchase machinations from last season.

Edited July 6, 2015 by grannygeek

[Grundoon59]

If you want to see early Sarah Lancashire, check out any You Tube clips of Raquel on Coronation Street.  After years of seeing her as a ditzy workiing class barmaid, it is amazing to see her in any middle or upper class role. 

[Fishy]

Wow, I can't believe how similar Celia is to my own Mother.  Just wow. 

[Quilt Fairy]

Wow, I totally thought it was condoms, based on Cheryl's saying she didn't want to "catch anything". Vibrators are totally funnier, though

It's actually both. First she gives the box of condoms (which is where PBS cut the scene for us prudish Americans, I guess), and then she goes on with a lovely purple dildo/vibrator.

[DHDancer]

I guess it's a testament to the writing and acting that I got really angry with Celia last night.  Obviously she was seriously damaged by Ken's affairs, but most especially the incident of her being in hospital dying and he was off enjoying other activities. And that's why Alan's "bad timing" of having his fling while Elaine was dealing with a new baby may have pushed Celia into this seriously bad space.

 

I cannot forgive her, most especially for her incredibly selfish treatment of Caroline and Kate on their wedding day.  All I can think it is because she's almost having a psychotic episode.  Or, maybe she's just being Celia on a particular worse-than-usual day... I wonder if they (TPTB) will go down a path of age-related mental illness now?

 

And what's also incredibly sad is to see that Caroline appears to have inherited some of her mother's least attractive behaviors.

 

I found the Gillian and the condoms funny enough: not sure it would have been that much funnier with the full monty (so to speak).  It would have explained all the expressions on the customers of course which were a bit over the top for a box of condoms.

[izabella]

I cannot forgive her, most especially for her incredibly selfish treatment of Caroline and Kate on their wedding day.  All I can think it is because she's almost having a psychotic episode.  Or, maybe she's just being Celia on a particular worse-than-usual day... I wonder if they (TPTB) will go down a path of age-related mental illness now?

 

This doesn't seem to be a psychotic episode or unusual for Celia.  I thought Caroline's story about Celia not coming to her graduation illustrated that this is exactly who Celia has been all her life.  It's all about Celia, and never about how anyone else feels, including her daughter on her graduation day or wedding day. 

[shandy]

I guess it's a testament to the writing and acting that I got really angry with Celia last night. 

 

And what's also incredibly sad is to see that Caroline appears to have inherited some of her mother's least attractive behaviors.

 

 

 

Yes and yes! I find the portrayal of Celia complex and compelling. She can be appalling but it's no caricature - AR has me believing in her choices, and her relationship with Caroline is sometimes so close to my family dynamics I have to stop myself getting emotional. It was no surprise to me that I read the actress playing Caroline has had hundreds of letters from all over the world telling her how important her story was to them. I also admire how they show very clearly that Caroline is her mother's daughter in her easy moralizing and 'holier than thou' approach.  The problem is, I then find the 'comedy' shtick trite and lazy.

 

Gillian's still a puzzle to me - tho a lot of people here seem to appreciate her and get how she's written.

[Milz]

This doesn't seem to be a psychotic episode or unusual for Celia.  I thought Caroline's story about Celia not coming to her graduation illustrated that this is exactly who Celia has been all her life.  It's all about Celia, and never about how anyone else feels, including her daughter on her graduation day or wedding day. 

 

Remember too that Celia's grudge against her sister deepened because the sister married the guy Celia wanted to marry. And Celia blames that on her marrying Kenneth on the rebound. She plays the victim card too much.

[SusanSunflower]

Now that you mention it, Milz, seems odd that Caroline as an educator, dealing with adolescents, hasn't psyched out her mother as a narcissist years ago ... which wouldn't necessarily change Celia but would change how Caroline reacts (and would have reacted for the last almost 20 years ago since her last wedding) ... and the aforementioned graduation... Narcissistic mothers who believe that the world revolves around them, and who force their children from a young age into caretaking them emotionally got cracked wide open with Alice Miller and Drama of the Gifted Child, even if Miller wasn't talking about narcissists, rather badly-mothered emotionally-needly mothers. 

[Milz]

Now that you mention it, Milz, seems odd that Caroline as an educator, dealing with adolescents, hasn't psyched out her mother as a narcissist years ago ... which wouldn't necessarily change Celia but would change how Caroline reacts (and would have reacted for the last almost 20 years ago since her last wedding) ... and the aforementioned graduation... Narcissistic mothers who believe that the world revolves around them, and who force their children from a young age into caretaking them emotionally got cracked wide open with Alice Miller and Drama of the Gifted Child, even if Miller wasn't talking about narcissists, rather badly-mothered emotionally-needly mothers. 

Last season, we saw that Caroline's relationship with Lawrence was strained enough that he went to live with John (and then realized that John was more screwed up than Caroline and went back to the lesser of two evils). So it really didn't surprise me that Lawrence would rather stay with Celia than go to his mother's wedding.

 

Additionally, it won't surprise me at all if Caroline and Lawrence's relationship mirrors Celia-Caroline, which I think it's being set up to do.

Edited July 7, 2015 by Milz

[SusanSunflower]

As an intergenerational thing, I keep being struck by the loss of awareness (generally) that we are (a) prone to recreate our parents' relationships (with us and their marriage) and (b) we can both learn from their mistakes -- and -- recognize when we are repeating them and avoid it -- and that it's good to do so. Like recognizing that if your parents are alcoholics, it's a good idea to maintain some vigilance about alcohol consumption and particularly -- as I learned -- the fact that most people are not -- in fact -- like your parents and that your idea of "normal" is likely quite skewed (growing up, all the adults I knew drank every day and night, continually, only some were considered "problem drinkers") ... also, that most people learn to set "better" boundaries ... 

Edited July 7, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[Milz]

As an intergenerational thing, I keep being struck by the loss of awareness (generally) that we are (a) prone to recreate our parents' relationships (with us and their marriage) and (b) we can both learn from their mistakes -- and -- recognize when we are repeating them and avoid it -- and that it's good to do so. Like recognizing that if your parents are alcoholics, it's a good idea to maintain some vigilance about alcohol consumption and particularly -- as I learned -- the fact that most people are not -- in fact -- like your parents and that your idea of "normal" is likely quite skewed (growing up, all the adults I knew drank every day and night, continually, only some were considered "problem drinkers") ... also, that most people learn to set "better" boundaries ... 

 

I see it in families. Some members have the insight and make the conscious effort to not repeat the problems. Some members see the problems but continue them anyway because "it's too late" or "things will never change", etc. And some members don't have the insight and continue curse the next generation. It gets really frustrating during family gatherings when you see things repeating themselves and it's extremely frustrating with the offender goes on and on about how miserable it was growing up in a household "like that" when their own household is "like that" too.

 

I don't think Caroline realizes that she and Lawrence are on shaky ground. Based on the first series, Gillian and Rafe's relationship is "better" than her relationship with her parents. IIRC, Gillian said something like when she had her abortion, Alan and her mother treated her like a failure and have always looked at her that way. I don't see Gillian viewing Rafe in that regard.

[LittleIggy]

She was being called out on adultery.

Wasn't adultery. No one married. Just fornication. And the BIL was the one supposedly in a relationship. Did Cheryl go out of her way to humiliate him?

Kate should have said, "Alan, you are still invited to the wedding" instead of mouthing "Sorry."

Edited July 8, 2015 by LittleIggy

[stormy]

I'm not sure Celia doesn't believe she's been betrayed by Alan and Caroline and having Lawrence stay home with her (because he believes his mom betrayed him) makes her feel better about her self.

[Quilt Fairy]

Wasn't adultery. No one married. Just fornication.

Technically? You may be correct. But Robbie and Cheryl were living together. That generally implies a commitment to a monogamous relationship.

[Valny]

I had a bad feeling when Kate took the car.I didn't want to have a bad feeling. The pre-wedding snuggle and bad poetry were beyond cute. Then the ending. Oh Sally Wainwright! What are you doing to me?

I had been spoiled about Kate,but just didn't know how it happened, and I too then knew that it would be the end for her when she left to drop the boys off. I actually thought it would happen in ep#4 because that's the ep I thought I remembered seeing the spoiler, so it even sucks more that I didn't even have or more to go.  I didn't think she'd go out like this actually. I pretty much thought it would have to do with something that happened during childbirth. well...at least they didn't go that route.  Did the actress have another commitment or did Wainwright want this? Cause that decision just sucked if she wanted this storyline. 

DropTheSoap  - What was the bad poetry part? I don't remember that,unless it was edited out. But I have a bad memory sometimes so that could be it too.

 

 

If they had done this as more of a season finale and allowed a time jump to the next season, it might have been easier to understand.  What were they...one episode in? Marriage..boom..death.

  That's what I was thinking.   It wouldn't have been so awful if it was a season finale,but man...why the rush? I know the season is a short one and you have limited storytelling in a small time, but damn, these people couldn't even enjoy their new lives together for a season?!

 

I loved that Caroline apologized to Alan in the hospital. I got a little teary eyed. And earlier on, I was glad Caroline gave Celia the brush off when she tried to make nice with her.  I'm guessing they might get closer now because of what happened to Kate.  Wonder if Kate's mom will make an appearance?

What did Gillian's drunk text say? 

Edited July 13, 2015 by Valny

[KR Vermont]

I have yet to warm to Caroline and Celia, but Gary's obnoxious mate make them seem more tolerable by comparison.

I sensed something bad was in store for Kate as soon as she said she was driving somewhere.

The hour seemed to stretch on (in a good way), there was a lot going on.

[howiveaddict]

Saw the actress who plays Celie on a Doctor Who rerun the other night.  She played a blood sucking alien monster.  Same Character as Celia.  That's for sure.  In fact I have more sympathy for the alien.

 

Felt bad for Caroline.  Did not see that one coming.  For a minute there, I thought it was her ex husband since he was driving back from Halifax.  Knew that couldn't be true though.  Felt bad for her having to listen to Gillian go on about the wedding when she called to tell her the bad news.  Happy that she appologized to Alan.  

[SusanSunflower]

I was very concerned we were inevitably going to get into class and power dynamics in the Kate/Catherine union that were going to be distasteful ... far beyond the snobbishness of Catherine/Celia versus Gillian/John ... Any teacher marrying the headmistress would be in for some tugs-of-war, but Catherine (and Celia) acclimated exceedinly well to John's writing success ... ours, mine and yours becomes fraught enough with vast income disparities in upbringing and lifestyle. Catherine's ex-husband's very good fortune and her current position have allowed her (and her sons) live far beyond what would have been her means -- sans that unattractive now-loathed and considered parasitic ex.  We didn't get a chance to see much of their dysfunctional and unhappy marriage although he certainly seems like a laid-back and attentive father ... now Caroline doesn't have to make.him.go.away as Kate had requested and was anticipating... bon chance. 

[Starchild]

Did the actress have another commitment or did Wainwright want this? Cause that decision just sucked if she wanted this storyline.

The writer said she couldn't think of another way to bring Celia and Caroline back together, if you can believe it.

[LittleIggy]

I sensed something bad was in store for Kate as soon as she said she was driving somewhere.

I've watched enough soaps to know that something bad was going to happen when Kate said that!

Just wait for someone to blurt out to Robbie about Gillian bashing in what's his name's head. No secret is ever safe with that lot!

[Brookside]

I was very concerned we were inevitably going to get into class and power dynamics in the Kate/Catherine union that were going to be distasteful ... far beyond the snobbishness of Catherine/Celia versus Gillian/John ... Any teacher marrying the headmistress would be in for some tugs-of-war, but Catherine (and Celia) acclimated exceedinly well to John's writing success ... ours, mine and yours becomes fraught enough with vast income disparities in upbringing and lifestyle. Catherine's ex-husband's very good fortune and her current position have allowed her (and her sons) live far beyond what would have been her means -- sans that unattractive now-loathed and considered parasitic ex.  We didn't get a chance to see much of their dysfunctional and unhappy marriage although he certainly seems like a laid-back and attentive father ... now Caroline doesn't have to make.him.go.away as Kate had requested and was anticipating... bon chance. 

Who's Catherine?  Do you mean Caroline, whom you mention later in your post?

Of course they had to kill off the only likeable and normal character on the programme.  Not to wish ill on a fictional character, but anyone would have been better than Kate (except Gillian's grand-daughter, who is lovely).

[izabella]

Celia had a lot of nerve - a LOT of nerve - to go to Caroline on her wedding night and start bitching about how Caroline handled people who asked about her, and expected Caroline to listen to Celia whine that she didn't know if Alan would come back.  Her self-involvement knows no bounds. 

 

Gillian remains a short-sighted, impulsive idiot.

[SusanSunflower]

Yes, I meant Caroline, not Catherine ... but actually "the only normal person on the show" was also the least defined, unless you want to watch someone perpetually mooning, in love ... The actress works constantly and could have played whatever they gave her ... but no, turning the show into some lesbian "odd couple"  or any number of other newlyweds adjusting to real martial life ... meh.  Might work, with good writers, but that's a another different show, not this one which is - afterall very much a your, mine and ours of the Lucille ball / Henry Fonda (1968) or  Dennis Quaid/ Rene Russo in the remake -- about a second marriage of two "mature" individuals and their blended family ... Doubtless Sarah Lancaster could helm another show ... but that's not Last Tango ... which is -- cough -- about Celia and Alan 

[Brookside]

Yes, I meant Caroline, not Catherine ... but actually "the only normal person on the show" was also the least defined, unless you want to watch someone perpetually mooning, in love ... The actress works constantly and could have played whatever they gave her ... but no, turning the show into some lesbian "odd couple"  or any number of other newlyweds adjusting to real martial life ... meh.  Might work, with good writers, but that's a another different show, not this one which is - afterall very much a your, mine and ours of the Lucille ball / Henry Fonda (1968) or  Dennis Quaid/ Rene Russo in the remake -- about a second marriage of two "mature" individuals and their blended family ... Doubtless Sarah Lancaster could helm another show ... but that's not Last Tango ... which is -- cough -- about Celia and Alan 

 

Yes, I need to not expect more than a - cough! - soap opera and recognize that I watch it because it's set where I grew up and can never get enough of Derek Jacobi. I think I have a hard time parsing the humour and the angst. Still sad that Kate was the one to go!

[stormy]

Gillian gets two marriage proposals within hours?  She's really that desirable?  Or is because she' the only single woman on the show?

Lame.

Gary's wife must be the "every good soap needs a bitchy female villain". 

Edited July 13, 2015 by stormy

[JudyObscure]

Are we supposed to see Gary's wife as a bitch?  I'm not saying we aren't, just that it was kind of unclear to me.  She had a few glasses of wine and was telling a funny story about someone managing to get a narrow boat turned sideways in the canal.  What are the odds the owner of the boat would be someone they knew and they would all sit with their heads bowed in horror instead of just saying, "Um, actually he's a friend of ours?" On the other hand, Gillian, last week, made some sort of stupid joke about "lesbians" and this week texted something rude to Caroline on her wedding night.  Deliberately. Then there's Celia's endlessly self-centered behavior.  It's sort of a weekly contest as to who's the biggest bitch.

 

I imagine it will be the usual five minute delay, after Gillian and Robbie get married, before someone tells him she was sleeping with John the day he proposed.  Oh, Gillian, it's every woman's dream to have someone who has loved them unwaveringly since they were fourteen years old, even after they acquire "a face like an old boot," so why on earth did you fall for John's silly, "We're both wild and free," line?

 

I have a feeling that by the end of all this Alan and Celia will be raising a half dozen babies.

[shandy]

Caroline's reaching out for Alan contrasted with Celia's half hearted apology all about her own needs - I do think it's a strength of the writing that we see the similarities  between mom and daughter, but also the differences, and Caroline's capacity for growth despite the ocean of maternal bitterness in which she grew up. 

 

But while characterization is great in this show the plot stinks! I honestly feel the writer only intended it to be a short piece of froth, not a 3 season plus super hit, and the British way of having a sole writer rather than a solid team has really hurt the show. She ran out of ideas. The Gillian 'problem' has become unsustainable, Kate's death made Guiding Light's last season seem like Shakespeare. The Gary storyline is tedious. I have no idea what is happening with Harry's houseboat and don't much care. 

 

I'm still 'in' - there aren't many things on TV that I enjoy, and I still find enough to place this above most other things in my viewing week. I'm keen to see if Angus and Lawrence discover they are in love.  I want Gillian to stop being a wreck. I wonder if Celia can have redemption or at least get something of what should be coming at her for all the bad feeling she creates. 

[Popples]

I'm so sick of Celia and her always playing the victim. She reminds me of those people who say "it's better to ask forgiveness than permission" where they do whatever the hell they want, say they're sorry, then get upset when it's not okay and make the person they've wronged look like the bad guy. She's so goddamn selfish, and I loathe her not wanting to fall out with people. Maybe if you put the feelings of someone else ahead of yours, others would be less inclined to fall out.

 

Saw Kate's accident coming, I'm not happy about that. Really?

 

The best part of the episode for me was Angus. Him calling his friend penis-head then saying "hi Granny" without even being abashed was hilarious.

[Milz]

Oh my. Celia is such a selfish cow. And she gets into a snit when Caroline tells her friends that Celia wasn't supportive of the wedding. I'm happy Alan left her and I'm happy Alan told her that she shouldn't have taken out her anger on Caroline.

 

I think Gary's wife, Felicity, has an alcohol problem (the way she kept downing the wine) and/or she's the more unselfish version of Celia (didn't want to go to Gillian's but did it anyway).

 

Gillian: she needs to stay off the drink. Every time she ends up in bed with John she's drunk.

 

Kate: I like Kate and always thought her too good for Caroline. But after she didn't stick up for Alan at the wedding, I think she would have become Caroline's enabler.

 

I loved that Rafe wanted to go to the wedding and I loved that he kissed Celia when she came to the house. I also loved that William was so totally there for Caroline, unlike Lawrence (but Lawrence is still a teen and I really can't blame him.)

[proserpina65]

Are we supposed to see Gary's wife as a bitch?  I'm not saying we aren't, just that it was kind of unclear to me.  She had a few glasses of wine and was telling a funny story about someone managing to get a narrow boat turned sideways in the canal.  What are the odds the owner of the boat would be someone they knew and they would all sit with their heads bowed in horror instead of just saying, "Um, actually he's a friend of ours?"

 

In all likelihood, had the subject of the story not been someone they knew (and actually sitting at the same table), they probably would've thought it was funny, at least up to the point when she mentioned the boat owner having to sell his house.

[attica]

You know, I loved the Celia scenes, because they are a super accurate drawing of that particular personality disorder. She causes havoc, people react unhappily, she WILL NOT be the one that has to pay the social price for her own bad behavior, she puts the onus on those she's wronged to 'be the bigger person' and make nice. Her apologies, such as they were, were all sub textually saying 'it's all your fault I was upset, therefore you have to overlook my being a cow'. Plus she got mad when she learned that Caroline didn't white-lie about her missing the wedding! There was not a stroke of writing done wrong/untruthfully there.  

 

By contrast, look at Caroline's apology to Alan: heartfelt, acknowledging how awful she'd been with her remark, understanding how it hurt him and was both unnecessary and avoidable. And it was the first thing she said to him when she saw him, not a pissy water-testing 'are you not speaking to me?'

 

Gillian gets two marriage proposals within hours?  She's really that desirable?

 

Dramatic economy aside, Gillian is exactly the kind of woman that kind of man wants to 'seal the deal' with. Open-hearted, hard-working, long-suffering. Although they each frame the proposals as wanting to provide for her, what they want is the kind of emotional caretaking of themselves that she represents. She'll soothe their brows, buck them up, and run interference for them. Even Gary, a successful guy, used Gillian as his entree into the family. This is why she's such a screw up, I think. She's socialized (as are many, many women) to do all the emotional work of everybody in the household, but she doesn't want to. Her little rebellions run hard up against her inculcation, so she can't really commit to setting boundaries or telling people off in the ways they deserve. She ends up making an ass of herself and, as she put it, chipping away her personality bit by bit. (The drinking self-medicates, but it doesn't help.)

 

Lots of guys want a woman who's an extension of them, not a person of her own.

[mrsbagnet]

In all likelihood, had the subject of the story not been someone they knew (and actually sitting at the same table), they probably would've thought it was funny, at least up to the point when she mentioned the boat owner having to sell his house.

 

I was surprised that no one stopped her and told her that the subject of the story was sitting right in front of her. I guess they didn't want her to feel embarrassed, but a) it was too late, and b) she'd already embarrassed Harry, so why shouldn't she be told? It would be a lesson to be more careful what she says. If they were that worried about making her uncomfortable, they could have found a way to interrupt and change the subject instead of just sitting there silently with their heads down.

[charlieboo]

I think it was more that they didn't want to embarrass Harry or "out" him. I don't think what she did was so bad - she was telling a quirky, local story which she thought would be interesting. I can totally see myself putting my foot in my mouth that way too - saying something negative about someone only to discover that person was related to the person I was telling.   

Edited July 13, 2015 by charlieboo

[Milz]

You know, I loved the Celia scenes, because they are a super accurate drawing of that particular personality disorder. She causes havoc, people react unhappily, she WILL NOT be the one that has to pay the social price for her own bad behavior, she puts the onus on those she's wronged to 'be the bigger person' and make nice. Her apologies, such as they were, were all sub textually saying 'it's all your fault I was upset, therefore you have to overlook my being a cow'. Plus she got mad when she learned that Caroline didn't white-lie about her missing the wedding! There was not a stroke of writing done wrong/untruthfully there.  

 

 

I loved the Celia scenes too, but she's still a cow. (Moooooooo!) I'm sorry to say it but I'm developing sympathy for Kenneth!

[LittleIggy]

I didn't see Gary's wife as being a bitch either. As mentioned previously, she was just telling a funny story. I was worried when Harry left. Was he driving?

[SonofaBiscuit]

You know, Gillian's a mess, but I still like her.  She makes some really terrible choices, but she generally knows that and takes responsibility for it.  Contrast that with Celia, who always seems to have a "but" attached to every explanation she gives.  Like how she apologized to Alan for handling the affair news badly, "but he just kept going on about Gary when he could see how upset she was" (paraphrasing here).  

 

Loved that Caroline told her wedding guests that her mother wasn't there because she's a narrow-minded bitch (okay, she didn't exactly say that).  And then Celia was all upset because she thought that Caroline should have told the guests that Celia was ill.  Personally, I think that she should have told people that Celia was upset about something that happened with Alan fifty years ago when he was married to his first wife, so she opted to stay home and pout instead of attend this very important life event.  

 

There is just nothing that they can do to make me like Celia at this point.  It's awful, but I find myself hoping that she'll die because I don't want to watch this character anymore.  I know, that's terrible, but she is a fictional character, so I don't really feel that bad.  Sadly, I still think that Celia will be the death of poor Alan. 

[SusanSunflower]

Yes, the authors really should watch "The Best Exotic Marigold Hotel" a few more times to refresh their appreciation of how to layer the salty and the sweet ... and even there -- to everyone's relief -- Penelope Wilton went home.to.England where she can meditate about her life choices off-screen.  Alan is written as too much of a gentleman to just abandon all hope but when the audience if rooting for him to do so ... they're doing this plot/character development wrong. 

 

On another forum about another show, someone was shocked when I suggested that it was possible to say unforgivable, unforgettable things and to thereby effectively destroy the heart of a relationship ... A late in life second marriage does involve accepting the loss of the first hopes&dreams marriage and a lifetime of parenting children who may or may not have turned out as hoped for and a longtime single parent's you-and-me-against-the-world bond with said children ... but there has be some reassurance that there is yummy loving heart underneath and in spite of all the details and that you-and-me-against-the-world bond needs to be reset ... if a happy emotionally autonomous old age is to be had. Old folks over-involved in their children's lives too often make everyone miserable -- even if the babysitting is free. 

 

Eta:  "Confirmation bias" is really a problem -- when you start to doubt that you really want to spend your life with someone, reality tends to reinforce those doubts ... 

 

ETA2:  Someone who is deliberately mean is -- imho -- in a very different class from someone who is honestly bigotted or stubborn or wrong ... spitefulness should not be tolerated 

Edited July 13, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[SusanSunflower]

How much of the character of Caroline is author autobiographical?   I gather that yes, her mother hooked up with a high school sweetheart ... but the rest? Caroline's wildly "undeservingly" successful dependent ex-husband? the love and marriage to a female colleague? -- I'm guessing the almost immediate widowhood is wholly invented ... 

[Oosala]

Jesus, why can't anyone be happy on this damn show?  And everything happens at breakneck speed, unlike in real life. 

 

The writer said she couldn't think of another way to bring Celia and Caroline back together, if you can believe it.

 

No, I can't believe it.

[SusanSunflower]

yes, it's bizarre .... I rewatched and again was dumbstruck that no one seemed to care that Celia was ruining Kate's wedding day ... it was all-about-Caroline ... which was more jarring because of the flimsy reason Kate's mother wasn't there -- for the wedding, for the pregnancy -- AWOL -- as if.  Even when Celia arrives at the hospital it's all about Caroline and Celia ... Kate will never hold or know her child. Kate will never "give birth."   The show then turns-it-around and Caroline is comforting/counseling Celia  ... argh. 

I liked Kate. I thought she was nicer than almost everyone else, except maybe Alan who also seems to be remarkably nice, if a bit of a coward. There was no reason for Celia to not to like Kate -- but in fact, she apparently never bothered to even register Kate as a human being, her daughter's bride, a young woman about to get married (I think) "for the first time" (Caroline had already been married), excited with her first pregnancy (Caroline was a veteran having birthed two children) -- oh, and now dead ... goddawful plot "device" that makes everyone moving-right-along rather stomach-turning ... light a candle and have a moment of silence, have a funeral or a memorial service ... shed a tear, someone!   Yes, it should have been a season/series closer or better yet, give it a twist -- have the newlyweds have a blow-out fight and have Kate decamp ... for France ... or America... taking/leaving the baby I don't care. 

How many more seasons do they hope to milk the first two seasons' popularity.  

Chillingly, Celia's obliviously self-centered behavior perfectly mimics early dementia/Alzheimer's ... may be that diagnosis can be the wow-finish 

[kassygreene]

I seem to recall that Kate was 42, had been married, and had a history of miscarriages.  And her mother was working in NYC, which is not a cheap last minute flight, and quite possibly something more extended was planned for after the baby was born.

 

I would have been happy if it ended with series 2.  I'd even accept ending with series 1, when it more closely reflected the real story.  But the turn into soap is disappointing, even though this episode is an improvement over the last two.

 

Also, Rupert Graves.  Nuff said.

[Valny]

The writer said she couldn't think of another way to bring Celia and Caroline back together, if you can believe it.

I guess I'll have to believe it, but come on, you surely could of thought of something else, you're a writer for pete's sake!  How about just have Kate be badly injured and have her in a touch and go situation....but she eventually pulls through. That would have brought them together for sure. No death, no mess!

[Brattinella]

SonofaBiscuit, 

 

 

There is just nothing that they can do to make me like Celia at this point.  It's awful, but I find myself hoping that she'll die because I don't want to watch this character anymore.  I know, that's terrible, but she is a fictional character, so I don't really feel that bad.  Sadly, I still think that Celia will be the death of poor Alan.

I have hated Celia SO MUCH, this would be cathartic as hell if she would fall off a cliff or be eaten by a lion!  I don't feel bad at all about this.  I do think Alan needs to grow a pair and start taking hold of her nastiness.

[SusanSunflower]

John mentioned that Caroline and Kate had bought-out his half of the house (I can't quite imagine how they might afford to do that except with a ginormous mortgage based on two salaries)... does this mean John's likely to stay around, perhaps as a Caroline's paying lodger? Inquiring minds.  I just realized that I think Gillian's musical beds -- including John -- occurred in blissful ignorance of Kate's death ... so John is definitely due some choice writing since the late-term death of the baby he never wanted with the girlfriend he didn't like much, who has now decamped, was largely glossed over (more contrived B.S. about a character I disliked enormously) -- anyway, that then coupled with Kate's death and, I presume, an adorable newborn that Caroline really doesn't have time to "mother" particularly with John so "at-hand" I'm guessing may turn John into a house-husband/au pair/nanny 

[Valny]

Well, that was absolutely heartbreaking. I was spoiled, so I knew pretty much what to expect, but it was very sad anyway.

 

I don't like that Kate died in the least, I think it was cheap storytelling and a bit of a stunt. But the way Sarah Lancashire is playing Caroline is absolutely brilliant. I can't believe I've only ever seen her in this and Happy Valley!

 

 

 

Me too, I'd only seen her in in Happy Valley(seen it four times!) and from then on I was a fan. She needs to be cast in American movies!! Preferably opposite Meryl Streep.   But getting back to her in this show.... yes she it killing it. I knew if they were going to show a funeral or wake, that we'd be seeing some more good acting from her. I don't know how she does it but it really looked like she was drained,tired, devastated,broken all in one face.  It was like I could feel her burden.  And she's an amazing crier because it not just she's bringing the tears just for the effects, it's that she really looks like she's feeling these emotions(yes, I know a good actor is supposed to do that) but it always just amazes me how actors can make it so real, ya know?  That was long winded but more to the point, she's a wonderful actress.

 

I missed the first six minutes so I don't know how sad those minutes were. I just picked it up when they were at Caroline's house for the wake. When Caroline was talking to Greg and he was so concerned about Flora(ugh,sorry don't like that name) that when I started getting a tiny welling up but not much, but when Celia is comforting and hugging Caroline in her room on the bed, that's when the tears really started flowing. That scene felt so raw and real when Caroline really lets it all out and is sobbing on her mom's shoulder. They didn't even do a close-up on her face but you could just feel how red and welled up her eyes must have been.  Oh man forget it, if they showed that I would have been a mess too.     Then the other part that had me wiping away tears was when Kate's mom was saying goodbye to everyone and she just gives one last look to Flora. There was such sadness in her face.  Oy.That was heartbreaking.    I guess you could read it lots of ways, but the way I read it was when she looked at the baby, she was thinking how much it looked like Kate. 

 

(Did I miss anything? Is that Kate's real mom or was she adopted?) 

 

I wanted to tell Gillian shut the hell up and just go home when she was telling Caroline about her stuff with Robbie. She could see how bad a shape Caroline was in,she doesn't need to hear your problems!  At least Caroline basically said I don't care what you do.

And Lawrence, ugh...with his complaining about the baby or "it" as he called her.  Shut the hell up!  Your not so pleasant either kid! Glad William always calls him out on his assholery.   I thought it was sweet when he was saying goodbye to the baby when Caroline dropped him off at the station and she said she's your sister.:)

 

I swear one day I will have to do a drinking game every time someone asks if they want tea.  It's like every scene almost!

 

 

Gary is scary.

 

Yeah, what's up with that?!   That was a odd little thing they threw in there. Does he have some kind of weird disorder we're going to find out about?

 

On a shallow note, I really like Raff's hair. It's lighter and it's different somehow....maybe bigger curls?  I'm guessing maybe the actor was working in something else and that's why it changed from last season? 

Edited July 20, 2015 by Valny

[izabella]

I wanted to tell Gillian shut the hell up and just go home when she was telling Caroline about her stuff with Robbie. She could see how bad a shape Caroline was in,she doesn't need to hear your problems!  At least Caroline basically said I don't care what you do.

 

Gillian has no sense of timing, tact or grace.  Caroline's partner just died leaving her a single mother to a new baby, and Gillian wants her advice about how she's going to keep this big secret from her soon-to-be husband for the rest of her life.  It's like Celia wanting to fret about Alan to Caroline on her wedding night, instead of apologizing for not going to the wedding.

[LittleIggy]

Gary seems to have issues, eh?

I wouldn't hire that nanny. She seems flakey (the preview seems to confirm it).

Apparently, car seats can go in the front seats in the UK.

The actress who plays Caroline was in "The Paradise." She was starchy, proper spinster!

Edited July 20, 2015 by LittleIggy

[DHDancer]

Loved this episode.  So poignant and real.