S03.E06: Ideal Orgs

[Sew Sumi]

Quote

The church purchases large buildings to use as upgraded church locations, celebrated as Ideal Orgs; the church claims that the new buildings signal the rapid expansion of Scientology, but former members and critics say otherwise.

Don't ask me about E6. This is according to my guide, with E8 next week. 😕

Airs January 1, 2019

Edited January 2, 2019 by Sew Sumi

[SailorGirl]

I was trying to figure out how much money the Seattle guy ended up giving. It sounds like it was well into the $1M+ range --$750K for going up the bridge, plus another $250K for a building, then $130K for his stepson/daughter-in-law's freeloader's debts? Plus the various donations that earned him all those certificates? So sad to think that money could have gone to legitimate charities that actually do good work to "save the planet." 

Question -- if when Scientology eventually fizzles, what happens to all those buildings? Will all those properties go to market? And who would want them? That would be some freaky energy in those places -- it would take a whole lotta sage smudging to get rid of that craziness. 

[sigmaforce86]

I really feel sorry for the guest last night and Leah and anyone else who got really high up the chain in COS then "woke up".  You could go back and forth about fault and how much they were brainwashed and what they did willingly but whether they gave with a lot of reservations or 100% blind belief I can't imagine what it must feel like to leave, find out how much they'd really been duped and add up the money they lost over the years or look at the loans and debts they'd accrued.   That has to bring out a strong feeling of having been taken advantage of that must be pretty hard to let go of.  Leah even said in her book as a teen in SeaOrg in Florida was sometimes eating (sneaking) meals in the org restaurant instead of the rice and beans they fed the staff, she confessed it years later and was told $40,000 would make up for the food she "stole".

That freeloaders debt is the worst of it, I think Mike has said before it's not enforceable and they try to get the word out that if you leave you don't have to pay it but of course the guest last night didn't know that yet.  Most who join the SeaOrg are kids and teens but are so sheltered they don't even know that everything they signed including the 1000 year contract and that debt repay promise was void just because they were minors when they signed it.  No wonder they don't want their members browsing the internet!

9 hours ago, SailorGirl said:

Question -- if when Scientology eventually fizzles, what happens to all those buildings? Will all those properties go to market? And who would want them? That would be some freaky energy in those places -- it would take a whole lotta sage smudging to get rid of that craziness. 

My sincere hope is that Scientology fizzles because the feds finally realize it's a scam and how much fraud and "cooked books" is involved in their money schemes and after being raided and heavily audited all those properties are seized and auctioned off.  Who would buy them is a different problem but how they go on sale, CO$ going down hard not just fading quietly, that I would love to see

Edited January 2, 2019 by sigmaforce86

[Pondlass1]

None of it makes any sense.  If Miscavige demanded the $$ from 'parishioners' to build more and more fancy mansions with gold plated toilet seats for himself I could maybe understand.  But the money is for fancy buildings that will remain desolate and empty once built.  Buildings that Miscavige actually has no use for - it's all for show and pomp and circumstance and the brainwashing of 'parishioners'.  It's beyond stupidity.  What is the point? 

Humans are so easily brainwashed.  It's scary.

[Mindthinkr]

I think this is the only “religion” that I have ever heard of that encourages it’s members to go into debt to give give give. It makes the CO$ seem very greedy. What do they think that they are going to do with all the money? Buy the government? Oh, that’s right. They have the LAPD (allegedly) in their pockets.  

[Uncle JUICE]

1 hour ago, sigmaforce86 said:

 

My sincere hope is that Scientology fizzles because the feds finally realize it's a scam and how much fraud and "cooked books" is involved in their money schemes and after being raided and heavily audited all those properties are seized and auctioned off.  Who would buy them is a different problem but how they go on sale, CO$ going down hard not just fading quietly, that I would love to see

Scientology won't fizzle due to any federal auditing of its books, because they have been classified as a religion. The first thing Scientology would do is demand equal treatment, which immediately would draw the ire of every one of the evangelical sects of Christianity. How many of those 'parish centers' are just excuses for tax free mansions for guys like Jimmy Swagget or Jimmy Baker or Haggard or Joel Osteen to live in, or tax free dollars to spend on private jets and 'retreats' and 'missions'? And how much money do those evangelicals give to politicians locally and nationally? I highly doubt there'd be a lot of support for equal treatment. And you cannot remove Scientology's extant designation that it's a religion without inherently opening the door for the secular American taxpayer to do the same to any other religion. I've said it in multiple threads: you cannot say "Scientology's obviously not a religion because we all know Xenu doesn't exist," because you can replace the bolded with literally any other religious tenets, and there's no real way to prove legitimacy. Hence the only truly democratic outcome would be to strip ALL religious and faith based organizations of their tax incentives. Heck, even if church officials are convicted of crimes, the tax exemption and religious designation aren't at fault or at risk, just the individuals. In fact, I bet if these guys straight up ADMITTED that it's a fraud and they never intended it to be a religion, they'd still keep both. 

The notion that Scientology is some fundamentally different economic model than any other major American religion is simply biased view because it's new. 

What will take down scientology must come from the root: show these people to be frauds and then recruitment dwindles to near zero. 

[Mindthinkr]

Hmm. Here’s a way out theory about all those big empty buildings. Perhaps they have put vaults into them to store all their cash and other funds and assets they want kept hidden. (Clearly I’m somewhat joking). 

[Absolom]

In line with what church expects their parishioners to go into debt.....

There is a Roman Catholic parish (not where I go) where I have friends attending and I would have bolted and people did because the parish council assigned each family a contribution to the building fund and really pushed hard for each family to meet their arbitrary designation even suggesting borrowing the money.  I've never seen that before or since and my friends caved to it to the tune of borrowing $5K for the church.  As I said, I would simply have moved to a different parish.  I don't take bullying well.  That is the one of the oddest parishes I've ever seen in other ways as well.  

[Pondlass1]

It's a scary 'religion' that demands its members go into deep debt and encourages the break up of families. I think the internet and cell phones might feature in the downfall of this cult.  People are way more google worldly now and a hidden cell phone could capture incriminating evidence. 

Law enforcement and the IRS seem powerless against the COS. A defined definition of 'religion' versus 'cult' is maybe needed so that these brainwashed "parishioners" can be protected from losing their life savings to buy another empty building for Miscavige to boast about.

[Carolina Girl]

Miscavage has these properties acquired because they have to do SOMETHING with their money - they cannot stockpile it or the IRS will come sniffing around.  They literally have indentured servants manning these empty properties.  But at their meeting every year, Miscavage uses them to promote the myth that the CO$ is ever expanding, that there are millions of members.  In truth, it is believed there are only 25K in the U.S. at best, 50K worldwide.  They really can't do anything else with their money - only acquire real estate.  In the episode about the Ideal Org in Inglewood, the woman said that they opened it up but NEVER did any community outreach other than recruitment and that the place was empty most of the time.  Same with the other buildings.  You hear that there are about seven people (probably Sea.Org) in there at any given time.

And those creepy CO$ bots following the reporters after they have left the area at the request of the police.  Notice again here's the LAPD doing the church's bidding.  "They closed the sidewalk, you have to leave."  Why?  They weren't creating a disturbance.  They were standing on the sidewalk.  They left, and the bots followed them.  Hey, that's stalking behavior, and frowned upon in California.

And haven't we seen that idiot bot in the hat before?  I'm pretty sure we have.  

I do this CO$ will die out soon.  Between Leah and the rest of the "Suppressive Persons" that have exposed the organization, I imagine they may be having a hard time recruiting new members.  

 

2 minutes ago, Absolom said:

In line with what church expects their parishioners to go into debt.....

There is a Roman Catholic parish (not where I go) where I have friends attending and I would have bolted and people did because the parish council assigned each family a contribution to the building fund and really pushed hard for each family to meet their arbitrary designation even suggesting borrowing the money.  I've never seen that before or since and my friends caved to it to the tune of borrowing $5K for the church.  As I said, I would simply have moved to a different parish.  I don't take bullying well.  That is the one of the oddest parishes I've ever seen in other ways as well.  

As a lifelong Roman Catholic, I have to agree with you - I have never seen anything like that either.  I've seen "second" collections on some Sundays to assist in funding Catholic Charities, and of course I've received the occasional "if you can give, please do so" to help, say the parish school building fund or some such, in the mail.  But NEVER anything like this.   Wonder if it's the laity pushing this and not the priests - I've belonged to a few parishes in my life where the laity tried to push a "holier than thou" self-aggrandizing agenda and yep, I bolted.  

[Uncle JUICE]

1 hour ago, Absolom said:

In line with what church expects their parishioners to go into debt.....

There is a Roman Catholic parish (not where I go) where I have friends attending and I would have bolted and people did because the parish council assigned each family a contribution to the building fund and really pushed hard for each family to meet their arbitrary designation even suggesting borrowing the money.  I've never seen that before or since and my friends caved to it to the tune of borrowing $5K for the church.  As I said, I would simply have moved to a different parish.  I don't take bullying well.  That is the one of the oddest parishes I've ever seen in other ways as well.  

I always felt this way about the "Bishop's Annual Appeal" campaign that seemed to run from June to April. If it's so important to get the money from somewhere, why not just pray for it?

1 hour ago, Pondlass1 said:

It's a scary 'religion' that demands its members go into deep debt and encourages the break up of families. I think the internet and cell phones might feature in the downfall of this cult.  People are way more google worldly now and a hidden cell phone could capture incriminating evidence. 

Luke 14:26: If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. 

I only point it out because again, because Scientology is NEW, it's viewed as strange or insidious. It's not THAT different, at all. 

 

ETA I should say it's viewed that way BY DEFAULT. In this case it's certainly true that it's insidious and strange, I'm just trying to demonstrate that if this were not NEW, it wouldn't be immediately viewed that way. Look at LDS, they were viewed as weirdos when they first started, they were viewed as a cult, too, but here we are 150 years later and that classification has largely dissipated. I bet they're really happy that Scientology came along and took the focus off THEIR 'new' religion. 

Edited January 2, 2019 by Uncle JUICE

[Uncle JUICE]

22 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

. A defined definition of 'religion' versus 'cult' is maybe needed...

This is the real challenge: how do you define one versus the other. I can't think of conditions that apply to or describe one that can't be said to apply to or describe the other.

[Absolom]

42 minutes ago, Carolina Girl said:

They really can't do anything else with their money - only acquire real estate. 

For starters they could quit asking for money to create more empty buildings.  Of course, that would nullify Miscavige's latest strategy.  They could use the money for community service work, but again Scientology isn't into doing good for anyone not even their own members.

[Carolina Girl]

37 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

This is the real challenge: how do you define one versus the other. I can't think of conditions that apply to or describe one that can't be said to apply to or describe the other.

I've always understood the idea of "cult" versus religion to be that the former rallies itself around a charismatic leader of some sort rather than the unseen diety.  Jim Jones, David Koresh, Charles Manson, all cults.  But the line is hazy.  I have very deep resentment of CO$ using the symbol of the "cross" in an attempt to give itself a religious patina, when we all know their core belief reads like the script for a rejected "Star Trek" episode.  

14 minutes ago, Absolom said:

For starters they could quit asking for money to create more empty buildings.  Of course, that would nullify Miscavige's latest strategy.  They could use the money for community service work, but again Scientology isn't into doing good for anyone not even their own members.

Money was the only thing LRH was after from the beginning.  

Edited January 2, 2019 by Carolina Girl
Using the right word is such a good thing....

[Uncle JUICE]

1 minute ago, Carolina Girl said:

If always understood the idea of "cult" versus religion to be that the former rallies itself around a charismatic leader of some sort rather than the unseen diety.  Jim Jones, David Koresh, Charles Manson, all cults.  But the line is hazy.  I have very deep resentment of CO$ using the symbol of the "cross" in an attempt to give itself a religious patina, when we all know their core belief reads like the script for a rejected "Star Trek" episode.  

Money was the only thing LRH was after from the beginning.  

I think that line is REALLY hazy: what was the biblical Jesus if not a charismatic leader? If that story is true, and you were a citizen of Roman-held Jerusalem in 30 AD, the overwhelming public opinion would very likely describe that character in the same way you probably describe cult leaders you mention. Look at the Hale - Bopp comet folks whose name I don't remember: he was telling his followers they'd be taken away in space on a comet to some other planet for a much better life, too. I agree with you on their co-opting various religious symbologies, too, but then we run right into early Christians co-opting various pagan holidays and symobology, too (what's a bunny or an egg got to do with resurrection? answer is they come from pagan springtime fertility rituals). I'm not attacking your beliefs or anyone else's, it just seems weird for one religion to call another sketchy or wrong when the practices are not that different, they're just not as old. 

[DrSparkles]

2 hours ago, Carolina Girl said:

Miscavage has these properties acquired because they have to do SOMETHING with their money - they cannot stockpile it or the IRS will come sniffing around.  They literally have indentured servants manning these empty properties.  But at their meeting every year, Miscavage uses them to promote the myth that the CO$ is ever expanding, that there are millions of members.  In truth, it is believed there are only 25K in the U.S. at best, 50K worldwide.  They really can't do anything else with their money - only acquire real estate.  In the episode about the Ideal Org in Inglewood, the woman said that they opened it up but NEVER did any community outreach other than recruitment and that the place was empty most of the time.  Same with the other buildings.  You hear that there are about seven people (probably Sea.Org) in there at any given time.

And those creepy CO$ bots following the reporters after they have left the area at the request of the police.  Notice again here's the LAPD doing the church's bidding.  "They closed the sidewalk, you have to leave."  Why?  They weren't creating a disturbance.  They were standing on the sidewalk.  They left, and the bots followed them.  Hey, that's stalking behavior, and frowned upon in California.

And haven't we seen that idiot bot in the hat before?  I'm pretty sure we have.  

I do this CO$ will die out soon.  Between Leah and the rest of the "Suppressive Persons" that have exposed the organization, I imagine they may be having a hard time recruiting new members.  

 

As a lifelong Roman Catholic, I have to agree with you - I have never seen anything like that either.  I've seen "second" collections on some Sundays to assist in funding Catholic Charities, and of course I've received the occasional "if you can give, please do so" to help, say the parish school building fund or some such, in the mail.  But NEVER anything like this.   Wonder if it's the laity pushing this and not the priests - I've belonged to a few parishes in my life where the laity tried to push a "holier than thou" self-aggrandizing agenda and yep, I bolted.  

The main Baptist church in Jax, FL had its parishioners commit to tithing a certain % a year (10%?) & they had to pay it regardless of whether they moved, got divorced, lost their job(s), etc.

Edited January 2, 2019 by DrSparkles

[Uncle JUICE]

5 minutes ago, DrSparkles said:

The main Baptist church in Jax, FL had its parishioners commit to tithing a certain % a year (10%?) & they had to pay it regardless of whether they moved, got divorced, lost their job(s), etc.

I'm reminded of Reverend Lovejoy admonishing the good people of Springfield First Presbylutheran that "Tithing means ten percent OFF THE TOP, people." How on earth would they enforce that if you moved out of the parish? 

[DrSparkles]

5 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

I'm reminded of Reverend Lovejoy admonishing the good people of Springfield First Presbylutheran that "Tithing means ten percent OFF THE TOP, people." How on earth would they enforce that if you moved out of the parish? 

I'm not 100% sure how it works/worked, but I *think* you had to guarantee it w your credit card!!!!

[Absolom]

One of my earlier childhood memories was of my father ushering the pastor and elders of his church out the door when they dropped by to verify his tithe by asking to see bank statements and tax returns.  He never attended there again.  It was a lesson I'll never forget in the if a church is money grubbing, there is something very wrong, RUN type way.  I'd love to hear his opinion about Scientology with the paying for courses and expecting people to borrow to support ridiculous aims of Miscavage.

[lovesnark]

My in-laws were devout Pentecostals and dutifully tithed 10% of their income even though they sometimes didn't have enough money to feed their kids or pay the rent. After my father in law died and his widow was left with nothing more than Social Security and a whopping $140 a month pension, she told her church she could no longer tithe. They kept taking the money out of her checking account - they have direct withdrawal now! - even though she'd told them not to. She had to close her account to make it stop and after that, even though she had devoted 80 years to this "church", they more or less ghosted  her. The women who had been helping her with getting to the doctor, store, etc quit answering their phones and stopped offering her rides to church on Sunday (she couldn't drive anymore).

Do the members of CO$ who work (not SeaOrg bots) have to give a percentage of their income off the top as well as shell out ridiculous sums for classes, books and all the other crap?

[summitsw]

Quote

None of it makes any sense.  If Miscavige demanded the $$ from 'parishioners' to build more and more fancy mansions with gold plated toilet seats for himself I could maybe understand.  But the money is for fancy buildings that will remain desolate and empty once built.  Buildings that Miscavige actually has no use for - it's all for show and pomp and circumstance and the brainwashing of 'parishioners'.  It's beyond stupidity.  What is the point? 

Yeah, this is the sticking point for me. I get that the COS has to do something with the money to fulfill their tax exempt status, but I don’t see how owning a bunch of empty buildings helps them in any other way than justifying the lie of their continued existence. The pool of donors must also be shrinking, (although I guess they just picked up a new batch from the Nation of Islam) so eventually the well would have to run dry.

Also curious as to why in hell the IRS/FBI/some organisation with actual balls doesn’t confront them about the buildings not being used for their stated purpose. 

Do they have to fly people in for the opening of these events? The group always seems larger than would be expected given the actual size of COS these days.  

I was also struck by how much money this guy and his ex sunk into Scientology but what really surprised me was that he was only OT4. He’d been in over 25 years right? I thought for sure he’d be an OT8. 

Edited January 4, 2019 by summitsw

[Rlb8031]

On 1/2/2019 at 8:14 AM, sigmaforce86 said:

I really feel sorry for the guest last night and Leah and anyone else who got really high up the chain in COS then "woke up".  You could go back and forth about fault and how much they were brainwashed and what they did willingly but whether they gave with a lot of reservations or 100% blind belief I can't imagine what it must feel like to leave, find out how much they'd really been duped and add up the money they lost over the years or look at the loans and debts they'd accrued.   That has to bring out a strong feeling of having been taken advantage of that must be pretty hard to let go of.  Leah even said in her book as a teen in SeaOrg in Florida was sometimes eating (sneaking) meals in the org restaurant instead of the rice and beans they fed the staff, she confessed it years later and was told $40,000 would make up for the food she "stole".

That freeloaders debt is the worst of it, I think Mike has said before it's not enforceable and they try to get the word out that if you leave you don't have to pay it but of course the guest last night didn't know that yet.  Most who join the SeaOrg are kids and teens but are so sheltered they don't even know that everything they signed including the 1000 year contract and that debt repay promise was void just because they were minors when they signed it.  No wonder they don't want their members browsing the internet!

My sincere hope is that Scientology fizzles because the feds finally realize it's a scam and how much fraud and "cooked books" is involved in their money schemes and after being raided and heavily audited all those properties are seized and auctioned off.  Who would buy them is a different problem but how they go on sale, CO$ going down hard not just fading quietly, that I would love to see

 

The issue with the freeloaders debt is that if you don't pay it, you aren't in good standing and can become declared. Which is why parents pay it for their kids, because they don't want to have to disconnect from them. Its a huge catch-22 as it seems like that debt is assessed only on those that are stepping down from SeaOrg to Public - which implies that they may not be drinking the kool-aid as much as they once were and might be more likely to leave if they weren't threatened with disconnection for leaving.

Quote

None of it makes any sense.  If Miscavige demanded the $$ from 'parishioners' to build more and more fancy mansions with gold plated toilet seats for himself I could maybe understand.  But the money is for fancy buildings that will remain desolate and empty once built.  Buildings that Miscavige actually has no use for - it's all for show and pomp and circumstance and the brainwashing of 'parishioners'.  It's beyond stupidity.  What is the point? 

Real Estate is a pretty safe play in the long run in terms of appreciating in value, especially in the places where they have been purchasing (most are the downtown/commercial areas of mid-size to large cities). Remember, they aren't looking to make a short term profit, just to show cash getting spent on something that will retain its value over the long-term. The other investments that would fit this criteria (art, wine, etc) aren't the kind of thing that religions usually purchase (although I bet that DM has an art collection somewhere as well). The church needs to spend money without getting rid of the money. Its exchanging cash for long-term value that can be converted to cash if needed. It's money laundering 101.

Edited January 4, 2019 by Rlb8031

[iMonrey]

This was another really good episode. I think this show is doing a good job of exposing just how badly the CO$ is ripping people off and pushing really hard to get their tax-free status revoked, because that's really the only thing that is going to bring them down. If they had to pay taxes on all that property they'd go broke immediately. The problem is, it's going to be really hard to get the IRS to revoke their status. Without getting too political, there's been an increasing effort it Washington to hobble the IRS to the point where it can barely function. 

[Uncle JUICE]

47 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

This was another really good episode. I think this show is doing a good job of exposing just how badly the CO$ is ripping people off and pushing really hard to get their tax-free status revoked, because that's really the only thing that is going to bring them down. If they had to pay taxes on all that property they'd go broke immediately. The problem is, it's going to be really hard to get the IRS to revoke their status. Without getting too political, there's been an increasing effort it Washington to hobble the IRS to the point where it can barely function. 

Why would a fully functional IRS ever take on the tax exempt status of this religion? I promise you, there would be an army of evangelical and otherwise Christian, Jewish and Muslim activist attorneys taking up the banner on behalf of Scientology to fight any such change. There's simply not a way to do it that doesn't essentially say "this religion is fake." I'm pretty sure the IRS has designated atheism as a religious organization to give secular charities some of the same tax breaks religious ones get specifically to avoid having to answer the question of "Why don't I get those tax breaks if I don't believe in XYZ but I'm doing the same work?" It's an even stickier wicket if you're trying to get the government to declare a religion invalid. This is a 'genie back in the bottle' problem, not a problem of profile or IRS resources, I'm afraid. 

[Rlb8031]

3 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Why would a fully functional IRS ever take on the tax exempt status of this religion? I promise you, there would be an army of evangelical and otherwise Christian, Jewish and Muslim activist attorneys taking up the banner on behalf of Scientology to fight any such change. There's simply not a way to do it that doesn't essentially say "this religion is fake." I'm pretty sure the IRS has designated atheism as a religious organization to give secular charities some of the same tax breaks religious ones get specifically to avoid having to answer the question of "Why don't I get those tax breaks if I don't believe in XYZ but I'm doing the same work?" It's an even stickier wicket if you're trying to get the government to declare a religion invalid. This is a 'genie back in the bottle' problem, not a problem of profile or IRS resources, I'm afraid. 

Except that Co$ lost their tax-exemption once before. Yes, it would be much harder now, and they would most likely get support from other "mainstream" religions, but its not like it hasn't been done before.

[Uncle JUICE]

3 minutes ago, Rlb8031 said:

Except that Co$ lost their tax-exemption once before. Yes, it would be much harder now, and they would most likely get support from other "mainstream" religions, but its not like it hasn't been done before.

I'd hope you're right, but that actually seems to bolster their case: they were exempt as a religion, then not, then courts decided they were actually a religion and due the exemption, would be how that had to go. In which case you have a direct precedent with this specific entity you'd need to argue around, and as it's a religion, it'd quickly grow from a tax code issue to a constitutional issue and likely in the Supreme Court, no? Havng already won a case in the past to restore that exemption, you'd have to argue that the ruling was incorrect in the first place, I'd imagine. Listen I'd love nothing more than to see this ridiculous organization euthanized and its followers freed, but I just can't figure a way to that without serious funding lost first (meaning mass defection, cratered recruitment).

Please let me live in a world where I hear Brett Kavanaugh say "Xenu."

[2727]

I continue to love the way Scientology shows its ass with every rebuttal letter. It's like the donor from tonight's episode said -- Tommy Davis' response to the accusations in the Truth Rundown made him question his beliefs more than anything written in the actual articles.

I really like Leah's wardrobe on the show; her clothes are pretty and flattering on her. I wonder if her stylist does an appraisal with Leah sitting down since that's primarily the way she's filmed. The flowered dress tonight flowed very nicely with Leah seated.

Edited January 5, 2019 by 2727

[kicotan]

On 1/2/2019 at 7:44 AM, Uncle JUICE said:

Look at LDS, they were viewed as weirdos when they first started, they were viewed as a cult, too, but here we are 150 years later and that classification has largely dissipated. I bet they're really happy that Scientology came along and took the focus off THEIR 'new' religion. 

I’m not a Mormon or a Scientologist, but from outside observation I don’t think there is any comparison between the two other than they are relatively “new” as far as religions go.  The Mormons weren’t just viewed as a cult or a bunch of weirdos, their congregations were run out of town(s), their leaders jailed and/or killed because folk could NOT abide a “Christian” religion, with increasing political muscle, that believed the more wives one has the better.

CO$ weren’t confronted by the US government with a “change your policy or else” come-to-Jesus moment.  Quite the opposite, it was the US government that capitulated to the demands of the CO$ over religious status, or not.  The Mormons were threatened with confiscation of property & funds and being un-recognized as a religion if they didn’t change their polygamy policy.

I seriously doubt that the modern day incarnation of LDS gives two shits about the CO$~they’ve secured their status and not for nothing got Utah and most of Nevada out of the deal they made with the feds.  Plus, they’ve 15 million LDS worldwide.

7 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

It's an even stickier wicket if you're trying to get the government to declare a religion invalid.

Amen!!!  I’m thrilled that this is actually something people are talking about and that Leah and Mike are so stridently pursuing.  The blatant advantages a taxable entity enjoys by being recognized as a “religion” in this country and the methods by which the CO$ employed to be granted that status are mind-blowing.  Where’s that good ol’ separation of church and state everyone pines for, as promised?

Myself, I’m like Thomas Jefferson, a sect by myself.  I can’t imagine how horrible it must feel for Leah, Mike and the ones that have come forward on the show having been believers in the religion of the CO$.  I applaud and admire their courage to come forward and share their stories.

[Quilt Fairy]

I have yet to hear anything about CO$ that is remotely spiritual.  The guy in this episode mentioned "going to services".   What the hell (no pun intended) is a CO$ service like? 

 

11 hours ago, 2727 said:

I really like Leah's wardrobe on the show; her clothes are pretty and flattering on her.

I like her clothes; HATE her nails.

Edited January 5, 2019 by Quilt Fairy

[DeeReynolds]

I am from a town north of Seattle and lived in Seattle for 7 years for college and beyond. Does anyone know where that Ideal Org there is? I couldn't figure it out from the pics they showed and I'm not willing to have any scientology inquiry in my search history. Real estate prices in Seattle and the surrounding areas has been insane the past few years. A building that large would be crazy valuable now, although depending on where it is, might have been more affordable when built. I think they said it was built in 2010? Anyway, thanks in advance if anyone knows the location!

[palmaire]

Seattle org is at 300 W. Harrison St. Drive by and let us know!

[Lovecat]

On 1/5/2019 at 2:20 AM, Quilt Fairy said:

I have yet to hear anything about CO$ that is remotely spiritual.  The guy in this episode mentioned "going to services".   What the hell (no pun intended) is a CO$ service like? 

I believe he said "getting services," meaning he wasn't going to spend any more money on auditing sessions or courses or whatnot.  To my knowledge (correct me if I'm wrong, tho) Scientologists don't actually have regular worship services like other (actual) churches.  They have big gatherings, but they seem to be more like pep rallies.

[DrSparkles]

On 1/4/2019 at 12:07 PM, iMonrey said:

This was another really good episode. I think this show is doing a good job of exposing just how badly the CO$ is ripping people off and pushing really hard to get their tax-free status revoked, because that's really the only thing that is going to bring them down. If they had to pay taxes on all that property they'd go broke immediately. The problem is, it's going to be really hard to get the IRS to revoke their status. Without getting too political, there's been an increasing effort it Washington to hobble the IRS to the point where it can barely function. 

Here's a great (scary) article on the IRS: https://www.propublica.org/article/how-the-irs-was-gutted  Helps explain why they can't go after $ciento (or other tax evaders...) if they wanted to,

[LegalParrot81]

Speaking of Ideal Orgs, last summer we were going to a baseball game in Denver.  Looking for a place to park, we pulled into a random lot.  The couple taking money said they were a "non-profit" and our money was a donation to the "non-profit" and handed my friend some literature and a DVD so she would know "what the non-profit was all about" and then asked for name, address, email and phone.  I just happened to look up at the building adjacent to the lot and realized we were in the parking lot for the Denver Ideal org.  Was able to tell my friend in time to bogus up all her contact info.  We did notice as we were walking from the car, they were taking down the license plate number.

She gave the DVD as a white elephant gift at our office Christmas party.  LOL

[laurakaye]

@LegalParrot81, your story kind of sent a chill down my spine.

Here's what I want to know - what on earth do they do with all these license-plate records and the gazillions of photos they take of random people driving by or people that happen to be on the wrong sidewalk at the wrong time, etc.?  Do they employ a team of people to comb through all of this information to some end, or is it all just scare tactics?

Just the fact that you were walking away from the car as they were writing down your license plate number creeps me out.  It's not like you were being confrontational, you were just using a parking lot.  What did they need all of that information for in the first place?

[WescottF1]

Friend of mine was in LA about a month ago and had her son take a picture of her out front of the big blue building.  Within seconds an armed guard came marching toward her.

[funky-rat]

On ‎1‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 11:37 AM, Uncle JUICE said:

 Look at the Hale - Bopp comet folks whose name I don't remember: he was telling his followers they'd be taken away in space on a comet to some other planet for a much better life, too.

Heaven's Gate.  I was watching a documentary on them, and it was said that when they were in their early formation, they attracted "a lot of disaffected Scientologists".  That just blew my mind.  The two shared some similar beliefs, like aliens, and shedding your body to become a higher being, etc, but Heaven's Gate also had some stuff that made Scientology look tame, like a number of the men having themselves castrated.  So I wondered just how messed up Scientology is (beyond what we know) if the Heaven's Gate group looked better by comparison.

[MaryPatShelby]

On 1/2/2019 at 9:31 AM, Carolina Girl said:

As a lifelong Roman Catholic, I have to agree with you - I have never seen anything like that either.  I've seen "second" collections on some Sundays to assist in funding Catholic Charities, and of course I've received the occasional "if you can give, please do so" to help, say the parish school building fund or some such, in the mail.  But NEVER anything like this.   Wonder if it's the laity pushing this and not the priests - I've belonged to a few parishes in my life where the laity tried to push a "holier than thou" self-aggrandizing agenda and yep, I bolted.  

I didn't grow up Catholic, but I married one and agreed to attend the Catholic church with him.  One year our parish was doing fundraising for capital improvements to the church building, and there was a committee formed of members who would go talk to each parishoner and get their financial commitment.  The guy that came to our house was a neighbor and a friend, but....here's the kicker....he came armed with the information about what our annual income was, and thus how much X percent of that income would be when we tithed it to the building fund.   We had of course never discussed our finances socially with him, so somehow the church got a hold of everyone's income and used it to apply pressure.  And it just seemed worse when it was a friend.

We stopped going to that church after that; well, basically to any any church.  

Edited January 13, 2019 by MaryPatShelby

[Sir RaiderDuck OMS]

I occasionally drive by the "Ideal Org" in Phoenix (it's on North 44th Street between Thomas and Indian School Roads). That huge parking lot is rarely more than 1/10 full, and I suspect most of the cars belong to the employees.