Avengers: Endgame (2019)

[Wynterwolf]

43 minutes ago, festivus said:

Yeah me too. I no longer care anymore. They broke me.

And then they wonder why the movie didn't have "legs". 

[festivus]

Laughy face for the Gif. Perfect. 😄

[Jeebus Cripes]

6 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Welllll, in Winter Soldier, I think it was? We saw that interview with Peggy, where she stated she met her husband doing the work she did (sorry my brain's all fuzzy with the details) and she credited Steve for making it possible to meet him (her husband). And I don't subscribe to the theory she was talking about thanking Steve for introducing her to Steve.

I believe she said Steve freed him from behind enemy lines. There's was an uncut version of her interview on YouTube, if anyone is interested. It might still be there.

[GHScorpiosRule]

3 minutes ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

I believe she said Steve freed him from behind enemy lines. There's was an uncut version of her interview on YouTube, if anyone is interested. It might still be there.

That's it! Thanks! Now I remember. And I don't think she meant that Steve saved his own self. I saw Captain America: The First Avenger. Steve saved a whole lotta other soldiers at his own risk, now that he had the ability to do so.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

That's it! Thanks! Now I remember. And I don't think she meant that Steve saved his own self. I saw Captain America: The First Avenger. Steve saved a whole lotta other soldiers at his own risk, now that he had the ability to do so.

1 hour ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

I believe she said Steve freed him from behind enemy lines. There's was an uncut version of her interview on YouTube, if anyone is interested. It might still be there.

Thanks. I just watched the uncut version and there is no way that was done with the intention of Steve always being her husband. 

[Ohiopirate02]

5 minutes ago, Dani said:

Thanks. I just watched the uncut version and there is no way that was done with the intention of Steve always being her husband. 

I agree.  Hayley is playing Peggy as a woman remembering her first love but who has also moved on with her husband.  

[Jeebus Cripes]

6 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I agree.  Hayley is playing Peggy as a woman remembering her first love but who has also moved on with her husband.  

Cue the negators coming in to tell you that she's just acting upset! It's all part of the plan to keep her husband's identity as Steve Rogers a secret, I tell ya! She fooled us all, didn't she? That clever gal. 🙄

[morakot]

Someone mentioned how unfair and cruel it would have been if Steve just came back in time to let Peggy know he was alright, have a dance with her, and leave.  I've been considering this, and I realized that I don't agree. 

In my early 20's, I had an intense relationship with a man. My family moved me to a different continent (it could have been to a different time) and I didn't hear from him for 30 years.  He informed my later relationships, I had his picture on my desk at work for years, and I did always wonder what happened to him.  When we met again, he was married, a SAHD with 4 children under 6. We talked, he apologized for being distant, less than faithful, and unkind. He had actually followed me to the country I had moved to, and tried to find me. We're not friends - his politics are not mine -- but I'm forever grateful for what he did to complete the past.

[VCRTracking]

Avengers’ Forced to Drop Black Widow-Hulk Romance Because There Was Just Too Much Plot

Excerpt:

Quote

“We certainly tried to,” co-writer Stephen McFeely recently said on the Empire movie podcast. “In ‘Infinity War’ we have scenes — we wrote them, we shot them — of them sort of hashing that out. ‘You’ve been gone, I’ve moved on,’ that kind of stuff. It became very clear that if a scene was not on the ‘A plot,’ it could not survive ‘Infinity War.’ That thing has to be on rails just to get to the finish line. You couldn’t wrap up loose threads just because you wanted to.”

[Fukui San]

1 hour ago, VCRTracking said:

Avengers’ Forced to Drop Black Widow-Hulk Romance Because There Was Just Too Much Plot

Excerpt:

Good. It sucked and no one wanted more of that.

[Anduin]

6 minutes ago, Fukui San said:

Good. It sucked and no one wanted more of that.

I found it interesting and wanted more. But I like odd relationships in general.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Avengers’ Forced to Drop Black Widow-Hulk Romance Because There Was Just Too Much Plot

Excerpt:

That’s two Natasha plots that got dropped. One involved her as a love interest and other as a surrogate mother to orphans. They really did not know how to use her as a character. 

Edited June 13, 2019 by Guest

[Jeebus Cripes]

2 hours ago, Anduin said:

I found it interesting and wanted more. But I like odd relationships in general.

I like odd relationships, too. Nat/Bruce didn't do it for me, though.

1 hour ago, Dani said:

That’s two Natasha plots that got dropped. One involved her as a love interest and other as a surrogate mother. They really did not know how to use her as a character. 

Surrogate mother? 

[Guest]

52 minutes ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

Surrogate mother? 

Her original job was going to be caring for children who were orphaned in the snap. 

[Jeebus Cripes]

1 hour ago, Dani said:

Her original job was going to be caring for children who were orphaned in the snap. 

Oh, I didn't hear about that before now. Interesting. 

[Wynterwolf]

9 hours ago, Dani said:

That’s two Natasha plots that got dropped. One involved her as a love interest and other as a surrogate mother to orphans. They really did not know how to use her as a character. 

Wow. That's some aggressive heteronormativity... as much as I disliked how blatantly contrived her storyline was just so they could kill her, at least it was actually in character.  

[VCRTracking]

[Bruinsfan]

9 hours ago, Dani said:

Her original job was going to be caring for children who were orphaned in the snap. 

Yeah, that's a job that just SCREAMS Black Widow to me. WTF were the writers smoking when they came up with that?

[Spartan Girl]

40 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

I shouldn't be laughing but I am.  Great performance though!  

[Wynterwolf]

5 minutes ago, Bruinsfan said:

WTF were the writers smoking when they came up with that?

Yeah, that obviously wasn't a character-driven choice.  And I genuinely believe those guys are better writers than that, so I don't think those ideas came from them.  But it's what they had to work with, so from that perspective, I think they probably made the best choice they could.    

[stealinghome]

I've actually never felt that the writing team behind Endgame had a particularly good handle on Natasha's character, so it doesn't really surprise me that all their plans for her in Endgame were hot messes.

The MCU in general has never known what to do with the Natasha character. That there is any consistency and continuity in the character at all between movies is pretty much down to Scarlett Johansson's talent and screen presence.

[Wynterwolf]

20 minutes ago, stealinghome said:

The MCU in general has never known what to do with the Natasha character.

Could be, definitely.  I adore Natasha in WS/CW, so I'm probably giving them the benefit of the doubt because of that.  

[VCRTracking]

Edited June 13, 2019 by VCRTracking

[Raja]

3 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

Yeah, that's a job that just SCREAMS Black Widow to me. WTF were the writers smoking when they came up with that?

Probably thinking to reverse the I'm a barren KGB monster assassin from Age of Ultron. So now in post snapture world she becomes a mother. But that didn't fit the nervous ball of energy running world security meetings that we ended up with 

[stealinghome]

1 hour ago, Raja said:

Probably thinking to reverse the I'm a barren KGB monster assassin from Age of Ultron. So now in post snapture world she becomes a mother. But that didn't fit the nervous ball of energy running world security meetings that we ended up with 

I wonder if the “surrogate mother” plot got dropped when they decided to kill Natasha, as the depressed WSC head job fit a basically suicidal Nat much better.

[Jeebus Cripes]

1 hour ago, stealinghome said:

I wonder if the “surrogate mother” plot got dropped when they decided to kill Natasha, as the depressed WSC head job fit a basically suicidal Nat much better.

I got the impression that the decision to kill Nat was sort of last minute, as they initially wanted Clint to die. I imagine they dropped the surrogate plot early on. 

[MisterGlass]

By surrogate mother, I assume they mean training juvenile ballerinas as assassins.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, stealinghome said:

I wonder if the “surrogate mother” plot got dropped when they decided to kill Natasha, as the depressed WSC head job fit a basically suicidal Nat much better.

Surrogate mother was actually my term and in fairness to the writers it is probably an oversimplification of what was planned. It’s been a while since I read that interview but if I am remembering correctly she was going to be running the organization that was taking care of the orphans. 

I believe they said it was dropped because the idea was too complex to handle. They said that after the snap approximately a quarter of all children would be orphans. I’m not surprised they decided not to go down that path because it just raises the logistical issues that the movie mostly glossed over. 

I am just bitter that they wasted a great character and then killed her off just before her solo movie. 

Edited June 14, 2019 by Guest

[tennisgurl]

What really sucks is that Nats death ended up being secondary with Tony’s death. We had some nice moments with Clint and Wanda mourning her, but it all got buried under Tony dying. It seems like it would have fit more in Infinity War where they were killing characters left and right than here.

[Lantern7]

Note to self: see if HISHE has a Facebook presence so I can watch their stuff sooner and post it in these forums. Because that is important to me.

Topic? Right . . . I'm not thinking hard about the logistical holes of the movie. Aside from giving Natasha a movie after she was killed, I'm not having headaches at all. Then again, if Disney/MCU reveals that the Natasha who died was a clone, I'm be pissed . . . but I'd be impressed by the sheer size of balls to go down that road.

[Jeebus Cripes]

2 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

Topic? Right . . . I'm not thinking hard about the logistical holes of the movie. Aside from giving Natasha a movie after she was killed, I'm not having headaches at all. Then again, if Disney/MCU reveals that the Natasha who died was a clone, I'm be pissed . . . but I'd be impressed by the sheer size of balls to go down that road.

She's been a skrull since after The Winter Soldier. Ya know, the cuddly, friendly variety from Captain Marvel. That explains all those questionable hair styles. RealNat was captured by Hydra off-screen after she walked out of that hearing at the end. She finally got that super soldier serum. 😉

[Zuleikha]

Don't taunt me! It has been my DREAM for the MCU to take as its canon the powered Black Widow who got the Russian attempt at the super serum. Her apparent age makes zero sense with her supposed history without that.

And honestly, I'll be fine with Endgame her being a clone if it gets me more Black Widow. Although being in the Soul Stone isn't really the same thing as being dead, so there's no reason they can't have Black Widow and Original Recipe Gamora properly returned.

[Jeebus Cripes]

1 hour ago, Zuleikha said:

Don't taunt me! It has been my DREAM for the MCU to take as its canon the powered Black Widow who got the Russian attempt at the super serum. Her apparent age makes zero sense with her supposed history without that.

I always found it bizarre that in a franchise about super powered beings, they elected to not have her be one of them. 

[starri]

9 hours ago, Dani said:

I believe they said it was dropped because the idea was too complex to handle.

It also strikes me as kind of similar to where Steve right after the time skip.

[swanpride]

I got a little bit the impression that the moment the Russos and Marcus and McFeely got Tony to play with, they just didn't care about Steve and his entourage anymore. It's the only explanation I have why everything they do with Tony in Endgame feels so right and the perfect conclusion to his story, while everything related to Steve feels like they have forgotten what they themselves wrote about him.

I adore Peggy and the lost love to her has always been an important element of Steve's story because she presented what could have been. But to me she was never the most important part of his story, Bucky was. In the first movie Steve becomes Captain America because he disobeys orders and rescues Bucky. In the second movie he has to fight Bucky. In the third movie he has to fight with Tony in order to protect Bucky. It was always about Bucky, and I don't mean that even in a romantic sense. His movies have always been about friendship. When Infinity War ended, him having to watch Bucky vanish AGAIN broke my heart. And then Endgame happens and he doesn't even MENTION Bucky the whole movie and then just vanishes in the past, leaving Bucky on his own. Just..wth?

[Dandesun]

53 minutes ago, swanpride said:

I got a little bit the impression that the moment the Russos and Marcus and McFeely got Tony to play with, they just didn't care about Steve and his entourage anymore. It's the only explanation I have why everything they do with Tony in Endgame feels so right and the perfect conclusion to his story, while everything related to Steve feels like they have forgotten what they themselves wrote about him.

I adore Peggy and the lost love to her has always been an important element of Steve's story because she presented what could have been. But to me she was never the most important part of his story, Bucky was. In the first movie Steve becomes Captain America because he disobeys orders and rescues Bucky. In the second movie he has to fight Bucky. In the third movie he has to fight with Tony in order to protect Bucky. It was always about Bucky, and I don't mean that even in a romantic sense. His movies have always been about friendship. When Infinity War ended, him having to watch Bucky vanish AGAIN broke my heart. And then Endgame happens and he doesn't even MENTION Bucky the whole movie and then just vanishes in the past, leaving Bucky on his own. Just..wth?

I agree with this so hard. SO HARD.

[mary2013]

13 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

 Although being in the Soul Stone isn't really the same thing as being dead, so there's no reason they can't have Black Widow and Original Recipe Gamora properly returned.

This is my secret hope for Phase 4.

[Perfect Xero]

5 hours ago, swanpride said:

I got a little bit the impression that the moment the Russos and Marcus and McFeely got Tony to play with, they just didn't care about Steve and his entourage anymore. It's the only explanation I have why everything they do with Tony in Endgame feels so right and the perfect conclusion to his story, while everything related to Steve feels like they have forgotten what they themselves wrote about him.

These are the same people that practically ruined Tony's entire character in Civil War in order to make the story work. Ended his relationship with Pepper off camera, Had him do a complete 180 on the government (after the Vice President of the US was one of the villains in IM 3) and work with Ross. And, most egregiously, had him outright trying to murder Bucky at the conclusion of the film.

The problem is that they don't really write to character, they write to plot points they want to hit, which makes them effective at these huge crossover films with so many differnet characters, but makes characters and their histories a secondary concern for them.

[swanpride]

I don't think that anything which happened in Civil War ruined the character at all. If anything it rescued him from stagnation by introducing his relationship to Peter. RDJ has done some of his best work in the franchise in Civil War and Infinity War.

[Perfect Xero]

44 minutes ago, swanpride said:

I don't think that anything which happened in Civil War ruined the character at all. If anything it rescued him from stagnation by introducing his relationship to Peter. RDJ has done some of his best work in the franchise in Civil War and Infinity War.

He repeatedly tried to murder an innocent man for, like, 20 minutes straight.

It should be a character destroying moment, the only reason that it's not is that every subsequent MCU film just ignores that this outright evil act ever happened.

[VCRTracking]

No, they just know Tony had seen video of his mother being strangled to death and the guy who did it was standing right in front of him. This topic has been debated since Civil War came out but the fact is even most viewers may not like what Tony did but they understand it. The reason they can forgive that and not Bruce Wayne being a total dick in Batman V Superman is that from the beginning, that unlike those characters Tony has always been portrayed as a deeply flawed character, whose morals were always out of whack.

Captain America The Winter Soldier was great because it was based on an already great story-line in the comic written by Ed Brubaker and they only changed a few things.

Edited June 15, 2019 by VCRTracking

[swanpride]

Huh, I actually thought that the story in the comic wasn't that popular?

And yes, Tony tried to kill Bucky. In a moment of extreme emotional turmoil. Pushing a character to his limits is what makes writing great.

But speaking of this, I fell also betrayed because we never got to see Tony encountering Bucky again.

[Jeebus Cripes]

1 hour ago, swanpride said:

But speaking of this, I fell also betrayed because we never got to see Tony encountering Bucky again.

Certainly would have made for an interesting encounter.

You know, I could have used some more Tony and Steve interaction in Endgame. When they both went back to the 70s to get the tesseract, I felt a little let down that they went off and did their own thing, and that was that. Yeah, I know there were time constraints and the plot needed to move along, but I always enjoy the quiet moments of dialogue between the team (CA: The Winter Soldier was excellent at this with Steve/Nat & Steve/Sam). Some sort of an actual conversation between these two, one-on-one, would have hit the spot for me. 

[swanpride]

Pretty much. It kind of felt like the movie wasted time at stuff I actually didn't really care about - like the taco scene, I mean, it was funny, but they could have just as well skipped it and cut immediately to Hulk and Co visiting Thor, there was no need to see Nebula and Rhodey arriving to understand what "getting the team together" means.

Like, the best scene of the whole movie is maybe Tony and Nebula playing finger football. It is such a simple scene, but it means so much. Just the thought that this was most likely the first time in her life that Nebula actually won at anything, and that she was encouraged all the way to get there breaks my heart. I rather had more of that and less of pointless forthnight jokes which will be dated soon anyway.

[Kel Varnsen]

On 6/13/2019 at 12:16 PM, Bruinsfan said:

Yeah, that's a job that just SCREAMS Black Widow to me. WTF were the writers smoking when they came up with that?

Plus who in the world after watching Endgame thinks "you know what this movie needs? A lot more kids"?

[swanpride]

Well, her helping out children could have worked since we know that one of the various things she feels guilty about is related to a children's hospital. I wouldn't have minded to explore that, but this was not the movie to do so because there was already so much going on.

My issue is not that they killed off Natasha. My issue is that they did it without ever providing a proper conclusion to her story and in a movie where her sacrifice would be overshadowed by Tony's. Plus, I feel that her death was so unnecessary. Yes, the rule is a soul for a soul, but technically it isn't clint who is sacrificing her, she is sacrificing herself. The could have easily rewritten the rules to: honest self-sacrifice earns you the stone.

Would have saved running time, too, and provided a better arc, because if the time heist had been a through and through triumph (seemingly), the realisation that it called forward Thanos again would have been way more dramatic.

[Raja]

The one kid that I did want more of was Cassie Lang. Scott found her easily enough I wonder about who survived the snapture with her, the ex wife, step father maybe Uncle Luis.  With Barton's family all gone it could have reinforced Morgan's presence that a total reset was just as problematic as a reset to presnap 

With Shuri and Hank Pym gone Bill Foster could have come along as an additional science bro to take on the quantum stuff with Tony Stark and Professor Hulk like the Ancient One did. 

[swanpride]

Nah, I get why they didn't do too much with Cassie. After all, should there be an Ant-man, the Wasp and Stinger in the future, it would be fatal to box in the writers.

[Spartan Girl]

4 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

He repeatedly tried to murder an innocent man for, like, 20 minutes straight.

Bucky was not "innocent". Yes, he'd been brainwashed when HYDRA got him to kill the Starks and dozens of other people, but he still killed them.

And like others have said, it was understandable that Tony would react that way when he not only found out that Bucky killed his parents, but Steve knew and kept it from him -- a betrayal that is worse when you remember that Howard was Steve's friend too.

[swanpride]

Steve didn't really know that Bucky did it, he just knew that Howard got murdered by Hydra. I always read his "I wanted protect myself" as him telling himself that he didn't tell Tony because he wanted to spare him the knowledge, but in reality, he didn't do it because Tony would have dug deeper and Steve was afraid what he might find. Meaning, a part of Steve suspected and Steve didn't want to know for sure.

In my eyes Bucky is innocent, but honestly, that is neither here nor there, since Tony would have no business murdering anyone even if said person were guilty. But he is acting in affect. I actually think what T'Challa tries to do way worse, because he is out for revenge and unlike Tony he had some time to calm down.