Avengers: Endgame (2019)

[coppersin]

Can someone please explain how past!Thanos et al got to the present-day Avengers compound? I was in an emotional haze for the entire three hours so I probably just missed an explanation, but... that's a lot of tech for them to conveniently have, yes? Even if they got the coordinates from current!Nebula (which I think is what happened?) wouldn't they still need Pym particles and a time machine of some sort? It's not even regular time travel because they're coming from an alternate timeline, correct?

Also, out of the many questions (and rage headaches) I've had re: Steve's ending, there's one detail I'm not clear on that can probably be explained easily: when he went to the alternate timeline to be with Peggy, was that the alternate timeline he and Tony created by going back for the stone and particles? Or did he create another new alt timeline? Because if so, that's bugging me. A lot. He's essentially creating/cloning a familiar world knowing that alt!Bucky is currently captured and being tortured and Hydra is just being its usual horrific self. Even if he and Peggy and Bucky team up to take down Hydra and clean up history, that's still a lot of pain and unhappiness to knowingly start up again, and it's unlikely that they'll have a 100% success rate so there's a whole new timeline of people getting killed or hurt.

We know so few solid details about the infinity stones (in the movie universe, at least) that the writers could make just about anything possible. If they were determined to give Steve a sentimental ending with Peggy, I wish they had just handwaved something using one of the stones instead of mucking around with time travel again.

[anna0852]

2014 Nebula stole 2023 Nebula's time travel unit and went back in her place. And then opened the main unit to let 2014 Thanos and crew through. 

[Taryn74]

3 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I get the feeling that the reason why Natasha sacrifices herself for Clint is because he has a wife and biological children and that is something that she will never have.

Here's the thing, though.  The Soul Stone doesn't just require "a sacrifice".  It requires that you sacrifice something you love.

"In order to take the stone, you must lose that which you love.  A soul, for a soul."  (This is exactly what Red Skull told Thanos in Infinity War, I just checked it to make sure I was remembering correctly.)

Natasha didn't sacrifice herself so Clint could get back to his family.  She doesn't love herself enough for that to satisfy the Soul Stone (just my opinion, of course, but there it is).  What Natasha sacrificed was her chance to erase more of the red in her ledger.  It's what she had spent her entire life as Black Widow trying to do.  That was the thing she loved, not her life in general.

Clint, on the other hand, would have been sacrificing his chance to get back to his family.  He doesn't love himself any more than Natasha does (again, just my opinion) but he loves his children.  He loves his wife.  Losing them was what drove him crazy the first time.

All I'm saying is there was a lot more depth to that scene than "I have to kill myself before my best friend has a chance to" for either of them.

[Guest]

49 minutes ago, coppersin said:

Can someone please explain how past!Thanos et al got to the present-day Avengers compound? I was in an emotional haze for the entire three hours so I probably just missed an explanation, but... that's a lot of tech for them to conveniently have, yes? Even if they got the coordinates from current!Nebula (which I think is what happened?) wouldn't they still need Pym particles and a time machine of some sort? It's not even regular time travel because they're coming from an alternate timeline, correct?

All they showed in the movie was Nebula giving Thanos the Pym particles with no other explanation. The Russo’s have said that they were able to recreate them so that everyone could come through. It was one of several moments when a single line could have cleared up a big plot hole.

56 minutes ago, coppersin said:

when he went to the alternate timeline to be with Peggy, was that the alternate timeline he and Tony created by going back for the stone and particles? Or did he create another new alt timeline?

It was a new alt timeline. When Steve and Tony traveled back to 1970 that moment became their present and everything before it became fixed. 

[Matt K]

That was a really good movie although not a fan of killing off Nat or how messy Cap's ending made everything.  While I'll save judgment on Nat's fate for later (especially if she's going to be part of GoTG vol 3 and them trying to save Gamora from her fate) I am glad that they really built up to Nat's sacrifice.  She's really close to Clint's family so it made sense that she wouldn't want them to loose their dad (which considering she had no family growing up would be a big deal for her).  Which reminds me, I love how this movie made two of the bottom tier movies have a big impact on this.  Avengers 2 gave us the Clint and Nat moments that framed this scene but making Thor 2 such a big deal was a pleasant surprise to me.  Especially since unlike Nat, Frigga did get fridged (from what I remember).  

While the explanation wasn't the best I do love how we got old school Marvel time travel.  As in, there is no such thing as time travel, instead (with few exceptions, like the Time Stone) all your doing is traveling to an alternate reality (past or future).  It's been the bedrock for much of Marvel's history so it was nice to see it here.  That said, Cap's ending kind of made a mess out of it so I kind of wish they would have done that a little differently (even just old Cap appearing on the platform with the shield and wedding ring) .  

[Raja]

21 minutes ago, Dani said:

All they showed in the movie was Nebula giving Thanos the Pym particles with no other explanation. The Russo’s have said that they were able to recreate them so that everyone could come through. It was one of several moments when a single line could have cleared up a big plot hole.

It was a new alt timeline. When Steve and Tony traveled back to 1970 that moment became their present and everything before it became fixed. 

I made the head canon that since Darrin Cross was able to work from just the ideal it was possible it should be simple for Thanos with Space Magic to reverse engineer an actual sample 

[Ohiopirate02]

1 hour ago, Taryn74 said:

Here's the thing, though.  The Soul Stone doesn't just require "a sacrifice".  It requires that you sacrifice something you love.

"In order to take the stone, you must lose that which you love.  A soul, for a soul."  (This is exactly what Red Skull told Thanos in Infinity War, I just checked it to make sure I was remembering correctly.)

Natasha didn't sacrifice herself so Clint could get back to his family.  She doesn't love herself enough for that to satisfy the Soul Stone (just my opinion, of course, but there it is).  What Natasha sacrificed was her chance to erase more of the red in her ledger.  It's what she had spent her entire life as Black Widow trying to do.  That was the thing she loved, not her life in general.

Clint, on the other hand, would have been sacrificing his chance to get back to his family.  He doesn't love himself any more than Natasha does (again, just my opinion) but he loves his children.  He loves his wife.  Losing them was what drove him crazy the first time.

All I'm saying is there was a lot more depth to that scene than "I have to kill myself before my best friend has a chance to" for either of them.

The optics of the female character who cannot have biological children sacrificing herself for her male counterpart who has a family are really bad.  That scene needed more dialog and less action to get whatever point the writers were going for across.  We shouldn't be conjecturing why Natasha felt it had to be her, the script should have made this point known.  As it stands, I saw that scene as the barren woman choosing to die so that her male friend could get back together with his family.  Like her life was always going to pale in comparison to anyone who could have a "normal" biological family.  

[krankydoodle]

14 hours ago, anna0852 said:

I'm still stuck on and sad about Nats death. I know we're supposed to get a prequel Black Widow movie at some point but that's not the Natasha I want to see. I don't want to see the recent graduate of the Red Room who's busy racking up red in her Ledger. I like the Nat who's an honorary Aunt to her friends kids and a committed friend to Steve (down throwing a sandwich at him) and who gets emails from a raccoon and who is genuinely in awe of flying through space. The Nat who was tearing up when Nick died and who's been wearing her Arrow necklace for nearly a decade even though she hasn't seen Clint in that time. The Nat that can calm the Hulk and get exasperated about bad time travel jokes. It was breaking my heart a little bit that she was not there for the final battle. Not only that Natasha missed the ultimate Avengers Assemble but also that Scarlett Johansson didn't get to be part of the biggest, baddest cinema scene possibly ever filmed and she's been with the franchise for nearly a decade.

One of the things I enjoyed about Civil War was seeing how Natasha had become the connective tissue of the group. Even in that movie, she seemed to be the one who was keeping tabs on and checking in with everyone. I was a bit surprised that they avoided the potential Natasha-Bruce romance so thoroughly in Endgame, but I know that was a polarizing pairing to begin with. Anyway, I agree that she was shortchanged.

[anna0852]

8 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

The optics of the female character who cannot have biological children sacrificing herself for her male counterpart who has a family are really bad.  That scene needed more dialog and less action to get whatever point the writers were going for across.  We shouldn't be conjecturing why Natasha felt it had to be her, the script should have made this point known.  As it stands, I saw that scene as the barren woman choosing to die so that her male friend could get back together with his family.  Like her life was always going to pale in comparison to anyone who could have a "normal" biological family.  

 I really didn't get that vibe from it. For me it was more that Natasha is an atoner which we know she's been since Avengers when she explicitly reference having red in her Ledger. I'm much more read this as her deciding that this was the moment in which she would truly make up for the bad things she's done. And as we have seen Natasha cares deeply for her friends. She knows how much Clint loves his family and as his friend she wants to give that back to him. He's the guy who took a chance on her back in the day and at this point she's trying to repay the favor.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Taryn74 said:

All I'm saying is there was a lot more depth to that scene than "I have to kill myself before my best friend has a chance to" for either of them.

I have a lot of problems with Nat’s death but I agree with you on this point. I’m fine with the way the story played out once Nat and Clint stepped foot on Vormir. It makes perfect sense to me that Nat would choose to sacrifice herself to save everyone else as a way of clearing the “red in her ledger”. It was a beautiful scene. 

I have 2 main problems with Nat’s death. The first is that she and Clint should have never been on Vormir. Other than random draw there no believable scenario where those two are the ones sent on that part of the mission. 

My second problem is the overall way the soul stone has been used throughout both movies. The idea of sacrificing someone you love has now been used to kill off the first two female superheroes to be given a prominent role in the MCU. Bringing back a 2014 Gamora and effectively wiping out MCU Gamora’s character growth does not make the overall treatment of the female characters less problematic. 

Edited May 2, 2019 by Guest

[Matt K]

34 minutes ago, Dani said:

My second problem is the overall way the soul stone has been used throughout both movies. The idea of sacrificing someone you love has now been used to kill off the first two female superheroes to be given a prominent role in the MCU. 

That's one of the wait and see things for me.  If GoTG vol 3 brings them back then I'm more willing to give it a pass since on their own each death made sense.  If Vormire was it for both characters though, then I'd have to agree that their deaths were very problematic for the reasons stated.  

[Tryangle]

On 4/27/2019 at 5:45 PM, Sandman said:

Wait -- didn't I see the Lady Sif?

For a brief second I thought so but it turned out to be Hope. That would have been a hell of a surprise. Hate that Sif just got abandoned from the MCU without a passing thought by *anybody*. Wonder why recasting her (and throwing in a bit of a sidestory) wasn't an option.

On 4/28/2019 at 5:23 PM, Dani said:

I know I should stop thinking about it but I can’t help imagining the thought process in involved with the team planning for the time heist. 

-Okay there are three stones at once in New York. Three stones means that needs to be the biggest team. Ant-Man is a thief who can shrink so he would be useful there. Hulk is big and green but there’s already a Hulk there so I’m sure no one will notice. Cap can just pretend to be past Cap and Tony can just wear a disguise.  I’m sure no one in Stark Tower will recognize him. 

- The Reality stone is on Asgard so obviously Thor goes there and Rocket can go with him. 

-Quill found the Power stone on a deserted planet and we should get there not long before him and wait for him. After all I’m sure that it would be pointless to get there earlier and try and find it on our own. Nebula is in her element there so she’ll be on that team. Rocket is going with Thor so I guess Rhodey can join her.

- That leaves the Soul Stone. All we know about that one is that Thanos took Gamora there but only Thanos returned. I’m sure that Natasha and Clint can handle that. Yeah, they don’t have any super powers or a specialized suit but I’m sure they can handle it. 

New movie title. Avengers: Paradox City

As mentioned by several on this thread, the team choices were a bit odd. With the whole "who's been in space" bit, you'd have thought that Nebula/Rocket/Thor would have led separate teams. I get it, Clint and Nat work well together, and yes Thor and Rocket had a good rapport from the previous adventure.

But with Morag and Vormir being unfamiliar territory, seems like they should have considered Thor+Hawkeye going to Asgard and Rocket+Widow to Vormir.

[Wynterwolf]

9 minutes ago, Tryangle said:

and Rocket+Widow to Vormir.

... but then Nat wouldn't have been able to do the Noble Sacrifice to get the stone.  This whole movie was written backwards, determined outcomes first... then they tried to make some sort of story out of it, sort of.  And in the places where they really couldn't... wibbly wobbly timey wimey time!!!!

[Danny Franks]

So that was a very good, very long cap to the original iteration of Marvel's Avengers. Lots to unpack, as I can see people have been doing at length, so I guess I'll join in.

Deaths - Tony was the right, if trite choice of sacrifice to save the Earth and restore everything to its rightful order. He was the first guy to see the threat out there, he was the one most affected by it over the years, and he was the one who (in my opinion) had to make amends for acting like such an entitled dick for the last couple of movies. I wasn't into the whole 'perfect family life with a gorgeous daughter' thing because, kids aren't really my thing, and I don't find them particularly cutesy or appealing (though I did get choked up over Happy's reaction to the kid saying she wanted a cheeseburger).

Natasha? I feel like Scarlett Johansson is just done with the character. I felt that strongly in Infinity War, when she was clearly just phoning it in and not engaged at all. She had a lot more emotional lifting to do here, which she did well, but I wasn't quite convinced about her becoming a one woman SHIELD operation, and taking all that on her shoulders for five years. If she was going to sacrifice herself for anyone, then Clint's family was the best choice. And Natasha seemed to be genuinely at peace with her choice, and her final chance to make up for that red in her ledger. I know there's talk of her finally getting her own movie, but I'm really not sure Scarlett Johansson is invested in making it.

And Clint as an emo, tatted-up murderer of people who have offended him by being criminals and alive was a bit of an eye roll. But honestly, most things Jeremy Renner does make me roll my eyes.

Thanos dying twice? I'm cool with it. I never accepted the big purple woobie face from Infinity War, and much preferred the anger-filled, driven version of him we got here. 

There were so many crowning moments of awesome, from Steve attacking Thanos with Mjolnir, to the reappearance of all the vanished Avengers. But the finest bit of cinematic bravado, for me, was when Thanos' ship suddenly stopped firing at the ground, and switched to aim at "something [that] just entered the atmosphere" followed by Carol just trashing the thing. That managed to surpass her similar moment in her own movie, when she took out some of Ronan's ships. 

I almost laughed out loud at the scene where all the women teamed up with Carol. Not because it was corny or silly, but because I felt like it was a deliberate choice, put in the movie just to enrage the whiny fanboys and misogynists who thought they could sabotage Captain Marvel. I hope that scene made them seethe with impotent anger.

Fat, drunk Thor was fun, and Chris Hemsworth is such a good comedic actor. Give him a straight man to play off, and he can make pretty much anything work. It was nice to see Valkyrie, Korg and Miek back, even if their return was left completely unexplained.

I loved Nebula's role in this, and the genuine redemption arc she's had, culminating in her becoming a Guardian and honorary Avenger. I can't wait for Guardians 3: The Search for Gamora.

Steve going back and marrying Peggy. Okay, I was actually spoiled on this one bit of the movie, and I didn't mind. It was a good end for his character (and a nice nod to House of M, where Steve Rogers never got frozen in time, and was an old man in a world of superheroes). But come on, how do you write him going back to be with Peggy, and not have it follow on from The First Avenger? Peggy said she'd be in that hotel bar, waiting for him at 8pm on Saturday. You show him going there and seeing her, waiting in vain but still with an ounce of hope. That's how you finish his story. But I am glad he went back and had a happy life with Peggy, the only romantic love he's ever had.

I had to laugh at Bucky's role in this. I think he had two lines, one of which was a repeat of a Steve line from The First Avenger. It's no surprise that Sam is getting the shield, no one who hasn't read the comics would know why on earth Bucky might deserve it.

A handwave I wasn't wild about - the fact that everyone has been missing for five years but just slots right back into daily life. Especially Peter, who should now be five years younger than his schoolmates, but seemingly isn't. It felt like they kept to the present timeline just so Tony could die and leave a daughter.

The time stuff was inconsistent, and the two Nebulas linking networks made no sense, but whatever.

[Jeebus Cripes]

I was thinking that it's a possibility that Nat's solo film might not be a full-on prequel. It could be Nat from one of the alternate timelines. It's unlikely... but it would open up the door for cameos by Tony or Cap. Again, unlikely, but they have made this possible. 

[blueray]

I've seen multiple places (mainly on youtube) people being confused about how Peter is still in highschool.  Anyhow, my take on it is. While he is five years younger than he suppose to be, so are some of his classmates as they were all "snapped". As seen in the movie Ned most have been as well. So while it's five years later, they are still teenagers both mentally and physically. Therefore the school let them resume high school. I hope this is further discussed in the spiderman movie. As well as how (or if) anyone could get back to normalcy. But I doubt they'll go into to much detail.

Edited May 2, 2019 by blueray

[Wynterwolf]

I just... WUT?

Tony was closest to Thanos BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE YOU PUT HIM.  Why are they talking like they had no control of the situation???  I can't... 

[Dandesun]

Okay, I finally saw it Tuesday night.

...

I would say, in all honesty, that I really enjoyed the entirety of the movie if I don't think about it.

I would say that if I think a little about it I really enjoyed most of the movie.

And if I think about it my normal amount... I get really really fucking angry about a few things.

I think there was a lot of movement of pieces in order to get them where they wanted for various spin off shows and next movies. I think there was some bullshit reasoning for some endings. I think there were flat out 'we're breaking the rules we set up in this movie to do this thing here' decisions, too.

If I don't think about them, it's fine.

But I think about them. Because that's how I do.

But, it's okay... canon never bothered me anyway.

[Sakura12]

1 hour ago, blueray said:

I've seen multiple places (mainly on youtube) people being confused about how Peter is still in highschool.  Anyhow, my take on it is. While he is five years younger than he suppose to be, so are some of his classmates as they were all "snapped". As seen in the movie Ned most have been as well. So while it's five years later, they are still teenagers both mentally and physically. Therefore the school let them resume high school. I hope this is further discussed in the spiderman movie. As well as how (or if) anyone could get back to normalcy. But I doubt they'll go into to much detail.

When Peter showed up for him only 5 minutes had passed, Strange told him it's been 5 years. So for all the unsnapped no time has passed. Peter is still 16 or however old he was in infinity war. He would still need to finish high school. 

Thanos took 50% of all life. I highly doubt Thanos was thinking of each individual building. So it wouldn't just be 50% of Peter's high school. Peter's whole high school could've been snapped. 

Edited May 2, 2019 by Sakura12

[Dee]

‘Avengers: Endgame’ Overtakes ‘Force Awakens’ & ‘Furious 7’ Overseas with $1.2B+; Globally Now #6 Pic Ever At $1.66B+

Quote

Fueled by the May Day holiday in many markets, Disney/Marvel’s Avengers: Endgame snapped up a further $157.8M at the international box office on Wednesday. The offshore total through yesterday is $1,211.8M — in just eight days of release — and sees Endgame overtake Star Wars: The Force Awakens and Furious 7 to become the No. 4 highest-grossing movie of all time overseas. Globally, Endgame on Wednesday also topped F7 and The Avengers to land at No. 6 on the all-time worldwide chart. The global cume is $1,664.1M as the Anthony and Joe Russo-helmed series-ender hurtles towards $2B this weekend.

As for China, estimates provided by Disney for today (which are not included in the above) are a $50M (RMB 336M) Thursday, for a local cume of $509M (RMB 3.43B). Yesterday, we noted below that Endgame had already become the top import ever in China. Today it became the first to cross the $500M threshold. It is on its way to over $600M, but ticketing platform Maoyan has lowered its cume forecast, slightly, to RMB 4.1B ($610M).

Taking the China Thursday estimate into account, Endgame has already passed Jurassic World to the No. 5 spot globally. The next pic it has to dust is Avengers: Infinity War which it should catch this weekend, as well as The Force Awakens, through Sunday. Thinking is it will also soon top Titanic to become the No. 2 movie ever worldwide.

As for the Avatar question: As noted below, this has been a largely holiday week in many markets and frontloading also plays a part; we continue to hear skepticism about whether these assembled Avengers knock out the Na’vi. We’ll know more about how the Infinity Stones land once the sophomore session is passed and we see midweeks starting next Monday.

[Raja]

4 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Marrying Peggy. Okay, I was actually spoiled on this one bit of the movie, and I didn't mind. It was a good end for his character (and a nice nod to House of M, where Steve Rogers never got frozen in time, and was an old man in a world of superheroes). But come on, how do you write him going back to be with Peggy, and not have it follow on from The First Avenger? Peggy said she'd be in that hotel bar, waiting for him at 8pm on Saturday. You show him going there and seeing her, waiting in vain but still with an ounce of hope. That's how you finish his story. But I am glad he went back and had a happy life with Peggy, the only romantic love he's ever had.

I had to laugh at Bucky's role in this. I think he had two lines, one of which was a repeat of a Steve line from The First Avenger. It's no surprise that Sam is getting the shield, no one who hasn't read the comics would know why on earth Bucky might deserve it.

A handwave I wasn't wild about - the fact that everyone has been missing for five years but just slots right back into daily life. Especially Peter, who should now be five years younger than his schoolmates, but seemingly isn't. It felt like they kept to the present timeline just so Tony could die and leave a daughter.

The time stuff was inconsistent, and the two Nebulas linking networks made no sense, but whatever.

Folks on other sites will hate me for this but "its all connected" With the Jarvis cameo the Agent Carter TV show is in continuity and if that dance scene is sometime after 1947 Agent Carter remains in continuity.

Peter's friend Ned meeting at the first day back in school comes back to the promise that Far From Home starts shortly after Endgame. With no reset we will just have to assume like the all original Avengers randomly survived the snapture those close to Peter all were snapped.

A recent question was Happy Hogan snaptured and returned by Professor Hulk? I will need to rewatch to see if I think Morgan knew Uncle Happy before the funeral wake

[Bruinsfan]

I vaguely recall seeing Hogan listed as one of the people who didn't get snaptured, making Peter the biggest hit Stark took on a personal level.

[VCRTracking]

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Raja said:

Folks on other sites will hate me for this but "its all connected" With the Jarvis cameo the Agent Carter TV show is in continuity and if that dance scene is sometime after 1947 Agent Carter remains in continuity.

It has been confirmed that Steve and Peggy’s life together was a alternate timeline so everything remains as is, including Agent Carter.

1 hour ago, Raja said:

A recent question was Happy Hogan snaptured and returned by Professor Hulk? I will need to rewatch to see if I think Morgan knew Uncle Happy before the funeral wake

Happy survived the snap. It was confirmed with the “Avenge the Fallen” posters that were released late month. 

Edited May 3, 2019 by Guest

[Perfect Xero]

"Mission 1: Covertly stealing two stones out from under the noses of our past selves and a group of SHIELD/Hydra agents."

"Mission 2: Traveling to a far away planet and facing unknown dangers."

"Obviously we'll send the highly trained espionage agents with decades of experience with SHIELD, but no superpowers or experience in space on the space mission and the Super Soldier and the tech master super genius on the espionage mission. Sound good?"

"You're the master strategist Cap!"

[Kromm]

On 5/2/2019 at 12:20 AM, Anduin said:

The whole battle was pure pandering/fanservice. That moment was fine.

There's a difference between a normal exhibition of fan service and this kind of "message" pandering. I actually don't have a problem with the film messaging female empowerment. It's long overdue. It's the bare naked seemingly uncaring approach to not putting in the effort to make it seem organic that bugs the sht out of me. Doing such dilutes the message, because the more transparent a stunt it is, the more the message is twisted to be about the ACT of pandering instead of about what it's intending to be about. 

I said it before. It almost seems like a setup scene for GirlSuperPowerPalooza was yanked to trim the runtime. That's really all it needed. Another 2 minute scene further back in the battle showing these characters meeting each other. So we weren't just left with "Look, magic plot contrivance brought them all together at that moment". 

Edited May 3, 2019 by Kromm

[Jeebus Cripes]

2 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

"Mission 1: Covertly stealing two stones out from under the noses of our past selves and a group of SHIELD/Hydra agents."

"Mission 2: Traveling to a far away planet and facing unknown dangers."

"Obviously we'll send the highly trained espionage agents with decades of experience with SHIELD, but no superpowers or experience in space on the space mission and the Super Soldier and the tech master super genius on the espionage mission. Sound good?"

"You're the master strategist Cap!"

LOL. I hate it when incompetent writing makes an otherwise intelligent character come off a fool. 

I swear I read somewhere that they --the writers or directors, I can't recall -- showed a section of the script to some random crew member --I forget what his specific job was-- and he was all about them changing Clint's death to Nat's. They agreed because apparently, that's how big decisions were getting made in regards to major shit like life and death. What kind of buffoonery is this? 

The more I think about them snapping the 50% back 5 years later, the more unsettled I become. Ignoring the ramifications economically, just on a psychological level, what kind of a mindfuck are you putting the survivors through just so Tony's daughter remains untouched? These people have been through hell, most if not all probably suffer from PTSD, some will have moved on and started new families. Now, all those lost loved ones suddenly return as if no time has passed for them at all? This is a clusterfuck of emotional turmoil. It's cruel. Yes, you've undone something horrible, but in the sloppiest damned way imaginable.

It's likely that Tony & Pepper still would have conceived Morgan had they reversed the snap right after it happened 5 years ago (assuming anyone but Tony uses the gauntlet). Even if they didn't, what the actual hell? The little girl is precious and all, but this is insane...

[Kromm]

4 hours ago, Raja said:

Peter's friend Ned meeting at the first day back in school comes back to the promise that Far From Home starts shortly after Endgame. With no reset we will just have to assume like the all original Avengers randomly survived the snapture those close to Peter all were snapped.

That's already bullsht, but there's the bigger issue of Aunt May. 

If May WAS snapped, how do they still have an Apartment five years later? 

If May WASN'T snapped, she seems awfully calm and collected to have Peter back after him being DEAD for five years, and all too willing based on the material we've seen from Far From Home to let Peter travel to Europe so soon. And even in this scenario, I'm skeptical she'd be living in the same place and Peter would still aparantly have the same room. 

Edited May 3, 2019 by Kromm

[Raja]

1 minute ago, Kromm said:

That's already bullsht, but there's the bigger issue of Aunt May. 

If May WAS snapped, how do they still have an Apartment five years later? 

If May WASN'T snapped, she seems awfully calm and collected to have Peter back after him being DEAD for five years, and all to willing to let him travel to Europe so soon. And even in this scenario, I'm skeptical she'd be living in the same place and Peter would still aparantly have the same room. 

I imagine that the entire world are facing those problems. And as a series it looks like they might be explored in the next Spider-Man as the coda to the Thanos story 

[HunterHunted]

8 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

When Peter showed up for him only 5 minutes had passed, Strange told him it's been 5 years. So for all the unsnapped no time has passed. Peter is still 16 or however old he was in infinity war. He would still need to finish high school. 

Thanos took 50% of all life. I highly doubt Thanos was thinking of each individual building. So it wouldn't just be 50% of Peter's high school. Peter's whole high school could've been snapped. 

The arbitrary nature of who was snapped is part of what makes Clint flip out and become a murder machine. His entire family is gone, but large swathes of criminal organizations are still walking around. It's why we see him murder every member of a Mexican cartel and that group of Yakuza. Except for Peter, Tony doesn't seem to have lost anyone remotely significant to him. It's completely possible a decent number of Peter's classmate got snapped.

Why is Professor Hulk so popular in the movie? Does he have a tv show? A super popular YouTube channel? He's insanely popular.

[Jeebus Cripes]

27 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

Why is Professor Hulk so popular in the movie? Does he have a tv show? A super popular YouTube channel? He's insanely popular.

Heh. Maybe it's just with the kids? I caught about 10 episodes of the Avengers Assemble cartoon a while back, and I swear Hulk was the main focus of every one of them. I could see how a friendly Hulk who's approachable would appeal.

I... don't really dig him. I'm more into OG Hulk bitching about the stairs. His CGI looked a little wonky sometimes, too. Ragnarok Hulk looked better and was more entertaining, IMO.

[blueray]

I can see that the Hulk/Bruce was the only one willing to talk to the public. The rest of the avengers weren't going around on talk shows and stuff. So he became a celebrity was a result.

[Danny Franks]

10 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

"Mission 1: Covertly stealing two stones out from under the noses of our past selves and a group of SHIELD/Hydra agents."

"Mission 2: Traveling to a far away planet and facing unknown dangers."

"Obviously we'll send the highly trained espionage agents with decades of experience with SHIELD, but no superpowers or experience in space on the space mission and the Super Soldier and the tech master super genius on the espionage mission. Sound good?"

"You're the master strategist Cap!"

Honestly, I love the implied callousness of Nebula, allowing two best buds to go to Vormir, when she at least had an inkling of how Thanos got the Soul Stone.

It's all handwavey stuff, quite honestly. Applying logic to all Marvel movies tends to make them creak, but this one would collapse under the weight of such scrutiny. I don't mind being able to just sit there and say 'fuck it, this is great anyway' if I'm actually enjoying the film.

It makes way more sense for Hawkeye's journey for him to be the one who dies, but I do think Scarlett Johanssen wanted out. If not out of the franchise entirely, then at least out of the continuity they're going to take into Phase 4.

I was wondering this as I was watching the movie... wasn't Kathryn Langford supposed to have a role in this? I was really hoping we were going to get murderous Clint with a sidekick, apprentice archer, but we didn't. And she didn't show up anywhere else, unless I've been thinking of a different actress.

[Raja]

11 hours ago, Dani said:

It has been confirmed that Steve and Peggy’s life together was a alternate timeline so everything remains as is, including Agent Carter.

Happy survived the snap. It was confirmed with the “Avenge the Fallen” posters that were released late month. 

The thing is I am an old school Trekkie. We had a community rule in those old BBS days that if it hasn't aired then it isn't canon. Since it was far too easy for the latest movie director or TV show runner to discard after show comments of previous producers.

In effect a guy can confirm alternate timeline now but come Avengers 7, Captain America 4, etc the unaired confirmation is conveniently forgotten by his replacement in favor of his new story of perhaps the Ancient One was wrong in her take of theoretical time travel. As shown on screen the Peggy/Steve scene doesn't break continuity with the Agent Carter TV series, where as having the meet as suggested in The First Avenger would have.

[benteen]

I'm curious what Steve's reaction would have been to see Red Skull again on Vorimir.

[Bruinsfan]

7 hours ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

I... don't really dig him. I'm more into OG Hulk bitching about the stairs. His CGI looked a little wonky sometimes, too. Ragnarok Hulk looked better and was more entertaining, IMO.

I felt the opposite, the Hulk CGI in Ragnarok looked weird to me, whereas this version, even though clearly based more closely on Ruffalo's own features, seemed more true to the original. I did crack up at 2012 Hulk's scenes in the movie though.

[VCRTracking]

Ha!

Edited May 3, 2019 by VCRTracking

[Dee]

21 hours ago, krankydoodle said:

One of the things I enjoyed about Civil War was seeing how Natasha had become the connective tissue of the group. Even in that movie, she seemed to be the one who was keeping tabs on and checking in with everyone. I was a bit surprised that they avoided the potential Natasha-Bruce romance so thoroughly in Endgame, but I know that was a polarizing pairing to begin with. Anyway, I agree that she was shortchanged.

The one relationship the MCU was never developed was Natasha & Thor.

She has significant relationships (Bruce) and ties (Steve/Tony/Clint) to the rest of the Original Six, but she and Thor barely shared any screentime.

[Raja]

Well Thor only came around for the battles and maybe an after party before heading off world again. He really only had a bond with Hulk/Banner

[Tryangle]

18 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

I just... WUT?

Tony was closest to Thanos BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE YOU PUT HIM.  Why are they talking like they had no control of the situation???  I can't... 

And if we want to go the grudges angle instead, there were options with Nebula, Drax, Gamora. Have all three of them take a role at the last.

My spoiler-free guess of which Original6 members would die in this movie were Nat and Bruce, and when Hulk took the new gauntlet it seemed like it would make sense. Man who didn't fit in and struggled to come to grips... except that they had changed his character with the "Prof Hulk" bit and he was at peace.

[Raja]

Unfortunately someone walking out to their car while I was walking in to the theatre spoiled the Natasha death. So I am watching the early scenes were she was all but biting her nails, but only when with Cap, and I knew what was going to happen when I saw her mission and Hawkeye's.

[VCRTracking]

19 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

I just... WUT?

Tony was closest to Thanos BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE YOU PUT HIM.  Why are they talking like they had no control of the situation???  I can't... 

17 minutes ago, Tryangle said:

And if we want to go the grudges angle instead, there were options with Nebula, Drax, Gamora. Have all three of them take a role at the last.

My spoiler-free guess of which Original6 members would die in this movie were Nat and Bruce, and when Hulk took the new gauntlet it seemed like it would make sense. Man who didn't fit in and struggled to come to grips... except that they had changed his character with the "Prof Hulk" bit and he was at peace.

They should have just said only Tony could steal the stones with his nanotech and transfer it to his suit without Thanos noticing. Thanos would have killed Drax, Gamora, and Nebula easily without them even coming close to taking the gauntlet from him.

It had to be Tony drama-wise because he's the one who started it all, the one with the biggest arc and whose death would effect the most people.

Edited May 3, 2019 by VCRTracking

[Wynterwolf]

It get's better:

They literally made different movies.  This would be hilarious if this wasn't about how a multi-million dollar movie was made, that had a tremendous emotional impact on millions of fans.  The lack of care and understanding of consequences is staggering.  But hey, it made it's billion+ so no one will care, or in many cases even see, the damage that they caused to multiple marginalized fan groups.  

Edited May 3, 2019 by Wynterwolf

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

They literally made different movies.  

I suspect they made the same movie but the Russo’s realized the criticism was valid and jumped on board with the only viable explanation rather than admitting they just messed up the entire MCU timeline.

According to this interview with them the time travel was originally even more confusing and Bruce’s explanation was added in reshoots. 

Russo Brothers Break Down the MCU's Rules For Time Travel

I hope the lesson from this is no more super secret movies. Everything that mattered leaked anyway and maybe the story could have been more coherent if more people actually knew what the story was during production. 

Edited May 3, 2019 by Guest

[Wynterwolf]

Yeah, I mean at this point I think they might even be purposely contradicting themselves, or giving the 'I don't know' or 'I'm not sure' answer, just so it's impossible to created a coherent narrative, kind of like how they used the time travel in the movie to confuse and complicate the plot so in the end, most people are just going, "Oh, fire bad, tree pretty! I cried when Tony died, but Thor was funny, and oh yay, Steve got a happy ending!” 

[Bruinsfan]

1 hour ago, Raja said:

Well Thor only came around for the battles and maybe an after party before heading off world again. He really only had a bond with Hulk/Banner

He and Cap seemed to share pretty good camaraderie as well, so I think I'd count them.

[VCRTracking]

53 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

It get's better:

They literally made different movies.  This would be hilarious if this wasn't about how a multi-million dollar movie was made, that had a tremendous emotional impact on millions of fans.  The lack of care and understanding of consequences is staggering.  But hey, it made it's billion+ so no one will care, or in many cases even see, the damage that they caused to multiple marginalized fan groups.  

It reminds me of the DVD commentary for Superman: The Movie where screenwriter(credited as "Creative Consultant" to get around the Writers Guild rules ) Tom Mankiewicz said the problem with Superman was if he exists why is there still war and poverty? He could just solve all the world's problems, so you have to have his father Jor-El tell him he can't interfere with human history. Director Richard Donner was like "No, no! The problem with Superman is he's only one man and he can't be everywhere and save everyone!" You do see both viewpoints in the movie.

With Endgame, while they both have different ideas of what happened, both the writers and directors thought Steve should go to the past and be with Peggy at the end.

This is so true:

[Lantern7]

Okay, I can work with that image for a sketch. Also: how did Bruce get glasses that big? I mean, maybe the lenses are clear to make him look smart (as opposed to rampaging), but the frames probably took a lot of work.

Speaking of spoiler stuff, Funko is putting out four figures: Pepper as Rescue, Hulk with Starkfinity Gauntlet, and two . . . robust Thors.

[Dandesun]

My brother keeps coming up with ideas to make Cap's ending totally okay. Last night he kept calling me and using Bran from Game of Thrones to make Steve's choice TOTALLY OKAY.

Which is like... hilarious in so many ways to me. He's very invested in my being okay with all of it.

I'm sitting there going 'I hear you. You have come up with an explanation that makes YOU okay with it. And that's great, for you. I'm not there. I probably won't ever be.'

The fact that my entire family is in contact with each other (I went to see it with my brother and his family, my sister lives with me so she's well versed in my various fan crack and feelings, and my Mom always gets me Cap stuff when she goes to Disneyland and I baby-sit her dog) to monitor how I'm doing is equal parts funny and touching. Apparently my brother told our mother 'I think she was in shock... or mourning... I'm not sure which' afterwards because I didn't really say much after the movie.

I was thinking.

Pondering, if you will.

And when he called my sister that evening he asked how I was and my sister's all 'Well, she didn't speak for ten minutes after coming home and then asked Allie (our niece) what she thought of it.'

It's nice to know that my family cares about me and my mental state after watching a blockbuster super hero movie. But I do have a tendency to dwell on the things I didn't like as much as opposed to celebrating what I did love. And, honestly, I loved 95% of the movie. I really did.

But that doesn't stop me from trying to figure out how to save everybody and how to get the ending I want. It's comics. That's the whole fucking point.

[Crs97]

With all this discussion, I am reminded of my mom when I was little.  I would rage about a movie I thought ended unfairly.  She would sometimes agree, but more likely patiently try to explain why it had to end that way or what lesson was learned.  I would keep complaining until she would finally just say, “It was supposed to end exactly the way you wanted, but they ran out of film.”  Now in my 50’s, I still find that line to be helpful.