Avengers: Endgame (2019)

[Jediknight]

11 years, 22 movies of buildup, and it more than delivered.

"Avengers!... Assemble." is the biggest cheering moment in superhero film history.  It's up there with Luke blowing up the Death Star.

Loved seeing Mr Jarvis, and Peggy again.  I miss Agent Carter.

It was nice that Nebula finally got a family that would never hurt her, accept her for who she was, and would never judge her, with the Avengers.  She said she just wanted a sister with Gamora, but with the Avengers she finally got a whole family.

Small moment that was awesome, look at the characters who were at the front of the charge against Thanos and his army, right there up front was M'Baku.

[Shannon L.]

I saw this on Saturday and have been too busy to comment until yesterday, but needed a bit more time to process it.  I was planning on going through the last few pages to get everyone's reaction, but instead I only went through a couple of pages.  I don't want to debate it, I don't want to nitpick or try to figure out how to fanwank the plot holes, or analyze it to death.  I just want to say this:

I liked it a lot. There were a couple of things that I didn't care for, but overall, I thought they wrapped it up nicely. And, boy, did I cry! I think because it really felt like an ending. Our kids grew up with these characters and we grew old with them. They almost felt real--like friends. It is truly a cultural phenomenon like we have rarely seen and an era ended with this movie. I really appreciate the 4 main actors for continuing to put their hearts into it for all those years, both in the movies and during interviews, and never looking like they were phoning it in or giving any indication that they were getting tired of it (although, I guess there were a few comments made early on by RDJ, but he still seemed to give it everything he had--imo, anyway). 

Yeah, I know they're only movies, but I'm a movie lover and I was invested in all of them.   I know that there are more to come, and as long as they remain good, I'll continue to be there on opening weekend, but with this 22 movie arc, I'm sure I'll be looking back at it with fond memories of having witnessed it all unfolding. 

[Jeebus Cripes]

5 hours ago, festivus said:

This is exactly how I relate to Steve and Bucky. Most people here that read my posts know I'm not a shipper(and probably roll their eyes at me a lot, lol) but I had a lot invested in their friendship and I felt so let down by the end of this movie. I have a best friend from my childhood that I would burn down the world for. I resent the fact that so many times romantic love takes precedence over platonic. I've had a really bad last couple of years and so has my friend and we have been there for each other. I could never sever that connection. I've seen it happen so much in my life though that people will choose romantic love over their friends. I think I must be the weirdo.

Yes, I realize that people are happy for Steve that he got his dance and life with Peggy and I wouldn't take that from them but this movie ruined Steve's character and arc for me. Just remember that every person is bringing their own experiences to how they view this movie.

So I can enjoy this movie but still be let down by it at the same time. 

 

YES! All of the above! You can't just show me two films where Steve turns his whole world upside down to do right by his best friend, and then toss that relationship aside for a What-If? By the way, they could have used the ending to this film as an episode for that show they have in the works instead of making it actual cannon, but now we're stuck with this. End of the line my ass.

[Dee]

‘Avengers: Endgame’: Normalizing Diversity Will Be Marvel’s Focus as It Looks to Future

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The Marvel superhero movie universe — responsible for a huge chunk of Hollywood’s box office in recent years — has begun to see a broad push to embrace diversity and inclusion, both in front of and behind the camera. The studio is starting to fully recognize that fans of these movies are extremely diverse, and are more vocal than ever with demands to be properly represented and spoken to. To that end, Marvel has asserted that it will answer these challenges.

So far, so good.

“Black Panther” earned its way into box office history, while also becoming the first superhero movie to be nominated for the Best Picture Oscar.

“Captain Marvel” – the first solo Marvel film with a female superhero in Brie Larson’s Carol Danvers – has earned over $1 billion worldwide so far.

Not to mention that, if you look beyond the Marvel Cinematic Universe itself, “Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse,” centered around the Afro-Latino Miles Morales, won the Oscar for Best Animated Feature.

Additionally, there has been a spillover effect behind the camera, which is just as significant for this shift to be sustained. For example, Ruth Carter, longtime Spike Lee collaborator as costume designer, became the first African American to win the Oscar in that category for her work on “Black Panther.” And Hannah Beachler became both the first African American to be nominated for the production design Oscar, and the first to win, also for “Black Panther.”

And finally “Captain Marvel” featured the MCU’s first female director in Anna Boden (who co-directed the movie with frequent collaborator Ryan Fleck).

These recent box office successes and Oscar wins should all serve as proof that Marvel’s diversity and inclusion drive has not only been successful, but may also be an indication of what the future of the MCU could look like as it progresses into Phase 4 and beyond.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Raja said:

What family? He had a special operations combat unit in the  future. A man out of his time, pop music, slang , extended family, etc. Bucky being the other man from the past probably would have also gone back to their time if given the chance.

I would consider the Avengers to be his family. In the past his parents are already dead and his childhood best friend and his new best friend are living the present. His family in the past is a wife and kids but he could have still chosen to take that path without going back in time. 

Bucky did have the chance to go back. He was standing next to a time machine when all of this happened. I don’t think any of the other characters would have had a problem with the “other man out of time” returning back it his original life. 

With the way time travel was presented here anyone of them could chose to travel back because there were no real consequences presented. 

Edited April 30, 2019 by Guest

[Jeebus Cripes]

3 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

Damn, this article fucking nails it.  

Just read this and ITA. I'm inarticulate as all hell, and this sums up perfectly my feels and what I'm unable to adequately express when someone presses me about why I'm so bitter. This shit hurts my soul. How was this film written by the same thoughtful men who wrote The Winter Soldier & Civil War? I would love to know the truth behind this ending. Did the writers seriously drop the ball this badly and dismiss their previous work, or did Marvel freak out over the "Cap & Buck are gay" fan base? Homophobia is not a good look, Marvel. And also, two men openly expressing affection towards one another does not automatically equal gay. They effectively ruined the best damned male friendship I've ever seen in film. God, I'm so salty. 

[Grumpymonkey]

I went and watched again last night, still loved the hell out of it. The last act just make me feel so many emotions!! I want a poster of that scene where Cap is alone standing against Thanos and his army for my house. I'll put in right in my living room, I don't even care.

Though now I don't understand how Thanos and crew (and he had a huge crew) were able to time travel to the future. 😄

Not sure if this was posted yet, I didn't see it but sorry if duplicate.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/avengers-endgame-directors-answer-captain-america-mystery/ar-AAAJoIb?li=BBnb7Kz

ETA: This was what I originally thought after watching the movie, but after reading some theories online I wasn't so sure. If I'm following correctly, I can choose to believe in this branch Nat's alive, Tony is alive. And I'll probably believe what every makes me happy with the alternate branch Cap lived in 😄

Edited April 30, 2019 by Grumpymonkey
thoughts on article, if I understand it right

[Jeebus Cripes]

Well, at least that article answers that burning question. 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

How was this film written by the same thoughtful men who wrote The Winter Soldier & Civil War? I would love to know the truth behind this ending.

Surprisingly they were also behind making Peggy into a complete badass in Agent Carter. Here’s what they had to say about Steve’s ending. 

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And Cap was always going to be allowed his happy ending with Peggy Carter? 
McFEELY From the very first outline, we knew he was going to get his dance. On a separate subject, I started to lose my barometer on what was just fan service and what was good for the character. Because I think it’s good for the characters. But we also just gave you what you wanted. Is that good? I don’t know. But I’ll tell you, it’s satisfying. He’s postponed a life in order to fulfill his duty. That’s why I didn’t think we were ever going to kill him. Because that’s not the arc. The arc is, I finally get to put my shield down because I’ve earned that. 
MARKUS A hero without sacrifice, you’re not going to get the miles out of that person that you need to for these movies. That’s what makes them a hero, it’s not the powers.

From this I don’t think they even thought about Bucky or Steve’s personality. It seems to be straight up wish fulfillment because they were fanboys who wanted Steve and Peggy to get together. Steve/Peggy became some kind of ridiculous romantic ideal in a way that can only happen because they were never able to be together. 

[anna0852]

I had a really sad thought. Since Nat had been on the run since Civil War and Clint was on house arrest right until the dusting, they might not have seen each other for nearly a decade before she found him Tokyo. And he lost her so soon after ☹

[stealinghome]

I just got back from the film and am still processing, but on the whole I liked it and think it more than delivered, especially compared to Infinity War (which was highly disappointing imo). The three hours really, honestly flew by--never once did the movie drag. The acting was truly very good, the moments of emotion were rock-solid, and the humor felt like it flowed naturally and balanced well with the drama, as opposed to the very forced humor of Infinity War. But with that said, I thought Marvel blew the landing on a few key things, so while the 95% the film got right was great, the 5% is tough to swallow. They were like Charlie Brown with the football.

Tony and Steve's respective endings were imo telegraphed from fairly early on in the movie. I was okay with Tony's; I've never been fond of the character at all, but I respect that as the MCU was in many ways built on the back of Tony/RDJ, Tony deserved to go out as the guy who saved the world. If RDJ wanted to be done being Iron Man (which a decade later I TOTALLY understand), this was the best possible end to give Tony. Steve and Natasha's ends sucked major donkey balls, though. Natasha's death is just straight enraging and the optics of it are...uh, not good...and nice try with the "girl power" moment during the battle, screenwriters, but I ain't buying it (note to the MCU: if you have been so bad with gender that this is supposed to be the salve, maybe you should do fucking better)...and Steve's end just feels like a bizarre end to his character arc that doesn't track with the first 98% of his character arc, and I say that as someone who loves Steve/Peggy. Steve's arc now basically amounts to "you know that big life thing that you cling to and wallow over and don't move beyond? THAT'S RIGHT, WALLOW FOREVER, don't try to healthily process and move forward in life!" Uh, okay. That's a...great message? Especially after the last few movies have had Steve say things like "the guy who wanted that went into the ice" and such? I just don't buy his end here--I could have bought it after the first Avengers movie, absolutely, but not several movies later. It's too selfish and just doesn't ring true for the Steve we see now. And the timeline stuff makes no sense and adds to the ughness of his entire end. Like, if Scarlett Johansson and Chris Evans wanted out as well, then by all means kill off (or age into their 80s) Natasha and Steve, but do it well. This movie didn't do well by either of them in their ends, which is especially disappointing as pre-ends, this was the best character movie for both since Winter Soldier. Nat was the movie's MVP for the first half.

I did like the way the movie had all the callbacks to all the previous MCU movies. They stayed juuuuust on this side of fanservice with it, so it felt like a nice homage instead of too OTT.

Steve picking up Mjolnir was AWESOME. Thor getting to have one last conversation with Frigga was genuinely touching to me (that's yet another moment in his life when he arrives just three seconds too late and doesn't aim properly, heh). I do agree that five years later, the world seemed too post-apocalyptic...no Mets, really? Other dislikes: I would have punched Tony at the start of the film if I was Steve or Natasha. Tony's tantrum was basically "I've always gotten my way, I broke up the team, everything into and after Civil War played out exactly how I wanted, but now it's your fault things went wrong!" Bitch please, take a hike with that, can Carol take you back into space and drop you off on the sun on her way out? Thor was funny and Chris Hemsworth has great comedic timing, but there's a difference between a character telling a joke and a character being a joke, and I don't like that this movie turned the Thor character into a joke. Thor used to be my favorite Avenger and now he's just...eh. Not sure how I feel about past!Gamora out there roaming the galaxy...is she with Nebula or was Nebula with the Guardians at the end? Can't remember. Merged Bruce/Hulk is weird but whatever, I don't really care about the character.

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I thought they same thing. I actually would have loved if the ending was Nat appearing with the shield when they expected Cap. Steve choosing to live in the past to allow Nat to return in his place would have been more in keeping with his character. 

I absolutely thought Natasha was going to come back in Steve's place, and was pretty bummed when I realized that wasn't what was happening. That might have been the best possible ending, tbh.

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And I assume he told Bucky about his plan long before they all walked out to the woods. That was clearly a forever goodbye, which would make no sense when they all expected Cap to be on the platform again in about 5 seconds.

I agree. The way Sebastian Stan played it, at least, Bucky totally knew. Because Bucky was also the one who was like "Sam...look" and pointed him to old!Steve on the bench, and didn't look surprised at any of it.

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That goes to one major problem i had. From how i understood it, you needed to sacrifice what you loved to get the stone. Clint and Natasha both actively fought to not have that happen. They were both willing to die themselves, and Natasha managed to hit the ground first, to put it very flippantly. So Clint suffered an enormous loss, a loss he had tried to prevent by killing himself. I thought you had to give someone up (as Thanos/Gamorra showed, which was about the opposite of how Clint/Nat solved the thing) and live with what you did. For me, Clint didn´t sacrifice Nat, he was unwilling to sacrifice her, but he lost her. That that was enough to win him the stone was confusing to me.

Yeah, for a moment I thought that was going to be a loophole that allowed Natasha to live--sacrificing the thing you love ("love") in a selfish bid for the stone is pretty much the polar opposite of sacrificing yourself so that you don't sacrifice the thing you love in a selfless bid for the stone. Seemed like an easy enough loophole to write in if the writers wanted to.

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The Marvel superhero movie universe — responsible for a huge chunk of Hollywood’s box office in recent years — has begun to see a broad push to embrace diversity and inclusion, both in front of and behind the camera. The studio is starting to fully recognize that fans of these movies are extremely diverse, and are more vocal than ever with demands to be properly represented and spoken to. To that end, Marvel has asserted that it will answer these challenges.

Yeah, because killing off the one OG female Avenger halfway through the movie so the other white male Avengers can manpain over her is a really good start. *snort* I went to see the movie with a male friend and during that scene he leaned over and said, with heavy sarcasm, "boy, the Avengers just keep getting more and more diverse, don't they?" Because, I mean...really now.

Edited April 30, 2019 by stealinghome

[VCRTracking]

1 hour ago, Dani said:

I would consider the Avengers to be his family. In the past his parents are already dead and his childhood best friend and his new best friend are living the present. His family in the past is a wife and kids but he could have still chosen to take that path without going back in time. 

Natasha, his closest person on the team is dead, he was able to make amends with Tony before he died and Thor, Bruce and Clint were as Ragnarok "friends from work". It's not just him not being over Peggy IMO. Cap, as hard as he tried never adjusted to the modern era. 21st century technology, fashion, pop culture, sexual mores, etc. These were things he could get used to,  but not what the world had become in terms of what's politically right and wrong.  His moral compass would always be at odds against it.

1 hour ago, Dani said:

Bucky did have the chance to go back. He was standing next to a time machine when all of this happened. I don’t think any of the other characters would have had a problem with the “other man out of time” returning back it his original life. 

Bucky isn't a "man of time". In short increments, he actually lived through the 20th century(as Alexander Pierce said he helped shape it). The things he had done, he couldn't go back to what he once was but Steve never changed. He is still a man of the 1940s. He still had a chance. Stucky fans say Steve "abandoned" Bucky. I say Bucky finally found peace in Wakanda thanks to Steve and Bucky wanted that for him too. Steve was selfish, sure but it allowed Bucky to be selfless. Steve helped Bucky as much as he could. he broke his programming, saved him from Tony, hid him in Wakanda where he was healed.

43 minutes ago, Dani said:

Surprisingly they were also behind making Peggy into a complete badass in Agent Carter. Here’s what they had to say about Steve’s ending. 

From this I don’t think they even thought about Bucky or Steve’s personality. It seems to be straight up wish fulfillment because they were fanboys who wanted Steve and Peggy to get together. Steve/Peggy became some kind of ridiculous romantic ideal in a way that can only happen because they were never able to be together. 

People downplaying Steve and Peggy's relationship as not "true love" are ignoring a lot of the movies and Agent Carter. They ignore why the ending of Captain America: The First Avengers was such a gut punch, why Steve was so pissed at the start of The Avengers, what made Cap work with SHIELD in Winter Soldier, what gave Cap the resolve to defy the Accords in Civil War and Peggy's emotional arc in season 1 of Agent Carter.

Edited April 30, 2019 by VCRTracking

[Jeebus Cripes]

I really liked that when Tony steps off the Milano at the beginning of the film that Steve was the first one to run up and help him out. In spite of all the Civil War bullshit, he's right there for him. Also, the scene following later when Tony deliriously goes off on him, though painful to watch, was very well acted. 

[Jeebus Cripes]

11 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

People downplaying Steve and Peggy's relationship as not "true love" are ignoring a lot of the movies and Agent Carter. They ignore why the ending of Captain America: The First Avengers was such a gut punch, why Steve was so pissed at the start of The Avengers, what made Cap work with SHIELD in Winter Soldier, what gave Cap the resolve to defy the Accords in Civil War and Peggy's emotional arc in season 1 of Agent Carter.

Personally, I don't argue that he truly loved her, but I will argue that they both moved on and made peace with not getting that dance. Endgame Cap is a very different man from Avengers 1 Cap. Or he should have been, but ya know...

Edited April 30, 2019 by Jeebus Cripes
My bad, didn't mean to post twice in a row.

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

People downplaying Steve and Peggy's relationship as not "true love" are ignoring a lot of the movies and Agent Carter. They ignore why the ending of Captain America: The First Avengers was such a gut punch, why Steve was so pissed at the start of The Avengers, what made Cap work with SHIELD in Winter Soldier, what gave Cap the resolve to defy the Accords in Civil War and Peggy's emotional arc in season 1 of Agent Carter.

I wrote that post before I got I read the interview with the writers confirming that Bucky knew and that Steve and Peggy’s life together was a alternate reality. I still do wish we had seen Bucky and Steve’s conversation on screen but it does clear up a lot of my issues. It still not my favorite ending for Steve but I do like the idea that there is a reality we’re they get to live a life together but their MCU story stays untouched. 

I was never trying to say that Peggy and Steve weren’t true love but that their story was already complete even if it was tragic. Now that story can stay complete and their future is a new beginning rather than a do-over. 

Edited April 30, 2019 by Guest

[Wynterwolf]

On 4/27/2019 at 7:40 AM, Wynterwolf said:

I do kind of take perverse joy in the fact that the (world wide!) SteveBucky fandom is so strong they literally had to no-homo Steve all the way back to the 40’s, apparently abandoning his core beliefs on the way, and even then they still had to have Bucky give Steve his blessing on screen so everyone would know that IT’S OKAY!  SEE, EVEN BUCKY IS HAPPY FOR STEVE!, which is some seriously manipulative bullshit.  And it was literally Bucky’s only purpose for being in this movie.

Of course Bucky knew, because they needed him to.  He had to serve his sole purpose in the narrative they had pulled out of their ass for this move, ironically ignoring some of their own best work. 

What Bucky knew was that Steve was abandoning him, because he was too broken.  

Edited April 30, 2019 by Wynterwolf

[VCRTracking]

59 minutes ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

Personally, I don't argue that he truly loved her, but I will argue that they both moved on and made peace with not getting that dance. Endgame Cap is a very different man from Avengers 1 Cap. Or he should have been, but ya know...

They've moved on because that's that was the only choice they had but Peggy still kept a picture of Steve on his desk and he still kept the compass with her picture.

Edited April 30, 2019 by VCRTracking

[Jeebus Cripes]

4 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

They've moved on because that's that was the only choice they had but Peggy still kept a picture of Steve on his desk and he still kept the compass with her picture.

Facts according to Endgame. I still feel like it undermined both character arcs and was a degression for Steve. 

[VCRTracking]

15 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

They've moved on because that's that was the only choice they had but Peggy still kept a picture of Steve on his desk and he still kept the compass with her picture.

15 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

Of course Bucky knew, because they needed him to.  He had to serve his sole purpose in the narrative they had pulled out of their ass for this move, ironically ignoring some of their own best work. 

What Bucky knew was that Steve was abandoning him, because he was too broken.  

I guess he should have been smiling.

Edited April 30, 2019 by VCRTracking

[Taryn74]

3 hours ago, Grumpymonkey said:

Not sure if this was posted yet, I didn't see it but sorry if duplicate.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/avengers-endgame-directors-answer-captain-america-mystery/ar-AAAJoIb?li=BBnb7Kz

Yes! Thank you! That's pretty much exactly what I had decided in my head canon.

[Dee]

Could Okoye's throwaway line about earthquakes happening in the Atlantic Ocean be foreshadowing Namor, perhaps?

[tennisgurl]

I've been thinking a lot about Steve's ending, and I really wish they had just had him go and get his dance with Peggy, get some closure, and come back. Him giving up his whole life in the 21st century, including with his best friend who he just got back, seems...cheap to me. So much of his story was being a man out of time, and finding his place in this brave new world, and dealing with his past and his future, and how he could be the kid from 40s era Brooklyn and a soldier living his life in the 21st century. Steve spent so much of his life fighting, basically going right from the thick of WWII as a young man in his early 20s (its kind of crazy to think that, of all the Avengers in the first Avengers movie, he was by far the youngest) almost right into yet another war, this time against aliens, then he has just kept fighting, against Hydra, Ultron, the government, Thanos, there was always something. I always thought a great ending for him would be for him to find his place in the world that didnt involve war, and just be himself for a bit. Another big part of his arc is his struggle between waking up as Captain America, the icon, and Steve Rogers, the man. He so often struggled with finding people that he could relate to as just people, and figuring out who he was, but him going to the past just kind of kills all of that. Even if it was an alternate timeline or whatever, this means he just gave up on all of that. No more struggles about being an icon vs a person, no more trying to find his own way in a world he hardly recognized, he just left all of that behind to go back in time and start over. So...what has even been the point? 

Weirdly, I almost feel like he should have gotten closer to Thor's ending, with him smiling about not knowing what to do next, passing on his title to a worthy successor (Sam) and just going off to find his place in the world. 

 Really when you think about it, as much as the friendship between Bucky and Steve is so central to his character and to the whole franchise, we hardly get to really see them hanging out, post Winter Soldier, and dealing with their issues and what happened to them. It makes sense, considering everything they go through, but knowing that Steve just left him, knowing that he finally had the time to really get to know his best friend again just feels wrong and terribly out of character. Yeah he loved Peggy, but he loved Bucky too, even if it was a platonic love (which is just as important as romantic love) and I just dont imagine Steve not wanting to be with him during his continuing recovery, now that they finally have the chance.

[Morrigan2575]

32 minutes ago, Dee said:

Could Okoye's throwaway line about earthquakes happening in the Atlantic Ocean be foreshadowing Namor, perhaps?

Oh that would be nice

[Guest]

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

but knowing that Steve just left him, knowing that he finally had the time to really get to know his best friend again just feels wrong and terribly out of character. Yeah he loved Peggy, but he loved Bucky too, even if it was a platonic love (which is just as important as romantic love) and I just dont imagine Steve not wanting to be with him during his continuing recovery, now that they finally have the chance.

Since Bucky’s death played no role in Endgame I really wish they had chosen to have him survive Infinity War instead. That way they would have had a chance to spend those 5 years rebuilding their friendship and given Bucky a chance to heal. It also would have given the opportunity for Bucky to be the one encouraging Steve to move on so that the ending felt less abrupt. 

Endgame really dropped the ball on the friendships that played a huge part of MCU to this point. Rhodey and Tony really only interacted in the moments before Tony died. Clint and Natasha had good interactions but they still spent the entire 5 years apart. Clint’s family was shown to be a huge part of Nat’s life but that never even came up here. 

The beginning was all about loss but it wasn’t explored very deeply. Now that I think about the dusted were rarely even mentioned by name.  Maybe that was deliberate but I think it hurt the storyline. 

Edited May 1, 2019 by Guest

[Dee]

Most of those friendships were dropped so the writers could fan-service entitled shippers.

[Jenniferbug]

On 4/29/2019 at 10:16 AM, tennisgurl said:

So, the timeline has just become Jeremy Bearimy? 🙂 

So Cap living his life in the past is the dot above the i, and I am Chidi "That...that broke me" 😁

[Kromm]

I had a thought today. A horrible thought.  I haven't seen anyone else talk about this, so I could be the first, but it seems so obvious maybe I am not.

This could blow a few minds though.

There's been plenty of talk about how Steve going back in time would seemingly result in a situation where to preserve what he knows of the timeline, he would have to screw Bucky over and allow horrible things to happen to him.

The logical counterpoint to this (if we ignore the "how" of him somehow crossing back over realities to the MCU Timeline we know to wind up on that bench) is that perhaps knowing that (at that point) since his very existence back there created a split timeline, then... why couldn't he rescue Bucky?  Of course this would create another big moral quandary for him.  Logic says that as much as his own presence back there creates a new timeline that if he plays it cool then history would still mostly unfold the way he knew it.  Why would this be a good thing?  Because it would allow him to plan ahead to stop the big disasters he KNOWS are coming. But if he intervenes to save Bucky, that topples a lot of bricks preserving the Timeline, given our knowledge of the things Bucky did. Heck, even just changing the fate of Tony's parents already has a big impact which would upend any assumptions about what follows.

But let's put all that aside. Say Cap decides it's worth the risk and rescues Bucky. He's preserved his sense of personal ethics right?

Wrong.

Because we're all forgetting about ANOTHER person he's screwing over in the past by leaving them to an unjust fate.

Steve Rogers.

Yes, Steve Rogers. There's another Steve Rogers back there. Trapped in the Ice. And Time Traveling Steve, unlike everyone else, knows that guy is alive. And even where he is--at least close enough for a big brained person like Howard Stark to be able to find him.

The moral quandary is even bigger. THIS is that version of Peggy Carter's Steve. There's a really good argument to be made that he's taking this guy's girl, while condemning this guy to be trapped in the Ice to wake up a world where he's a stranger and the love of his life is soon to be gone.

If we roll with a version of Steve who feels it okay to rescue Bucky, because it's a different Timeline anyway, or one who prevents the bigger tragedies ahead of time, then it's even worse if he takes Ice Steve's girl and leaves the guy in the Ice.

And if he doesn't and rescues him?  What ridiculous situation do we have to imagine? That they flip a coin for Peggy?  Geez.

So think on this.   How do we navigate these decisions when we counter in the OTHER version of Steve?

I will say I did finally think of a way this could be an alternate reality but Steve winds up back on that bench.  In an earlier post I suggested that maybe he has to find and use the Reality Stone.  But maybe it's not that complicated. Maybe the rules of Quantum Time Travel are simpler here.  Maybe if you go back in time and travel up you stay in the alternate branch until you hit the time you left. Then POP, you are drawn back to your original timeline.  The other timeline still exists, but you disappear from it. Which means that even if Peggy is gone, then possibly Steve is leaving behind children or grandchildren.  Or versions of Sam and Bucky he knew there.

[VCRTracking]

26 minutes ago, Dee said:

Most of those friendships were dropped so the writers could fan-service entitled shippers.

You mean the two main ships that started in their respective movies?

Honestly in terms of friendship I wish we got  more Tony and Bruce. ScienceBros! Yeah, they had a great reunion in Infinity War but I remember that relationship in particular in the first Avengers movie was a nice surprise and one of the things that made watching these different characters meet so fun. 

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

I always thought a great ending for him would be for him to find his place in the world that didnt involve war, and just be himself for a bit.

Yeah, that was never going to happen. At least in the present. The only way he could live in today's world was as a soldier.

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

He so often struggled with finding people that he could relate to as just people, and figuring out who he was, but him going to the past just kind of kills all of that. Even if it was an alternate timeline or whatever, this means he just gave up on all of that. No more struggles about being an icon vs a person, no more trying to find his own way in a world he hardly recognized, he just left all of that behind to go back in time and start over. So...what has even been the point? 

You're asking why he decided to take a chance to stop struggling? Adversity builds character? Steve was already the best person. He didn't need any more except the angst made him more interesting.

2 minutes ago, Kromm said:

The moral quandary is even bigger. THIS is that version of Peggy Carter's Steve. There's a really good argument to be made that he's taking this guy's girl, while condemning this guy to be trapped in the Ice to wake up a world where he's a stranger and the love of his life is soon to be gone.

If we roll with a version of Steve who feels it okay to rescue Bucky, because it's a different Timeline anyway, or one who prevents the bigger tragedies ahead of time, then it's even worse if he takes Ice Steve's girl and leaves the guy in the Ice.

And if he doesn't and rescues him?  What ridiculous situation do we have to imagine? That they flip a coin for Peggy?  Geez.

So think on this.   How do we navigate these decisions when we counter in the OTHER version of Steve?

I posted this before, but I think Steve waits until they can build another Quantum Time Machine, unfreezes the other Steve, tells him to use it to go back in time so he can be with Peggy, creating another timeline, does the same thing for the frozen Steve there and so and so on.

[Wynterwolf]

6 minutes ago, Kromm said:

There's another Steve Rogers back there.

Yeah, I brought up something similar earlier... I had him killing AlternaSteve on the Valkyri and then landing it or using the parachute to take over his life.  Very HydraCap.  

And my thought on the timeline jumping is that OldSteve was from far enough in the future of his alternate timeline that a Stark was able to advance the tech of the time travel GPS enough to be able to jump timelines.  I'm thinking Morgan is going to be smarter than her mom and dad put together.  

[Kromm]

3 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

I posted this before, but I think Steve waits until they can build another Quantum Time Machine, unfreezes the other Steve, tells him to use it to go back in time so he can be with Peggy, creating another timeline, does the same thing for the frozen Steve there and so and so on.

I guess that's possible. I bet it gets complicated though!

Think about it. This series of events likely created far more than one new Timeline. Each place a Stone was retrieved from, even if put back, likely created a split.

In fact, it occurred to me that I hope Tony understood that he had to return the stones exactly in reverse Chronological order  At least if they actually wanted to make sure they all got back to the same version of reality they got taken from.

[VCRTracking]

2 minutes ago, Kromm said:

Think about it. This series of events likely created far more than one new Timeline. Each place a Stone was retrieved from, even if put back, likely created a split.

Yeah the writers confirmed that's what happened. The Quantum GPS is how each Avenger returned to the original timeline.

[Kromm]

2 hours ago, Dee said:

Could Okoye's throwaway line about earthquakes happening in the Atlantic Ocean be foreshadowing Namor, perhaps?

I've already seen four or five YouTube videos with people theorizing this.

I actually hope not. I'm not a huge Namor fan, and I don't really see him as the next good Big Bad.  He's also bound up in the Fox acquisition, and if unwinding that now is going on I'd FAR rather see the better villain Dr. Doom. Yes Namor is fresher and unused onscreen, but Marvel is really going to step right in copycat accusations after the big success of Aquaman if Namor is used now.  Even though Namor is either a villain or an Anti-Hero and Aquaman is a hero.

I'd be okay with Namor being used, but as part of the Fantastic Four vs. for the Avengers films (where the biggest bads always live).  Or for Black Panther 2 (which seems possible given the ties between Namor and BP in the comics in recent years--mainly that Namor and Panther hate each other's guts, if I recall things correctly.

[stealinghome]

On 4/28/2019 at 6:46 PM, scarynikki12 said:

I'm not sure about past Gamora being in the current timeline. She wasn't at Tony's funeral nor was she on the ship with Thor and the Guardians. We'll know for sure in Guardians 3 but I assumed that she was sent back in to her original time.

The last scene of the Guardians+Thor (where Thor and Quill have their “who is in charge” contest) opens with Peter staring at a screen that says something to the effect of “Searching for Gamora....” There are no hits yet and Peter looks distressed. That implies that Past Gamora is still in the present day, since presumably if she’d been sent back in time, he’d know.

Did anyone else think that Present Nebula might just disappear when she shot Past Nebula? That would have been tragic but also a lovely note for the character to go out on, bringing her full circle as well.

When his family asks Clint what he got up to in the 5 years they were gone, what exactly is he going to tell them?

Widow's backstory is compelling, and I normally would be super interested in seeing a film about it, but watching it now would just depress the hell out ofme. I'm not here for a prequel if she's dead in the now.

You’d think Disney would have learned something from Solo!

Edited May 1, 2019 by stealinghome

[Wynterwolf]

1 minute ago, stealinghome said:

Did anyone else think that Present Nebula might just disappear when she shot Past Nebula?

That was one thing they were specific about, changing the past (killing yourself) doesn't change your present, it just creates an alternate timeline.  So there would be a branch in 2014 when 2014Nebula died.

[Dee]

14 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

You mean the two main ships that started in their respective movies?

I mean all of the ships involved.

Other than Pepper, Rhodey is established as the most important person in Tony's life. Yet he's ignored by the writers and fans (one guess as to why) for insta-ships in Bruce, Steve, Happy, Peter and eventually Stephen.

Joss unreasonable hatred of all things Clint/Natasha means they get sidelined from any significant character interaction until Endgame (!) as Natasha is forced to play Fay Wray to Bruce's King Kong and Clint babysits the Murder Twins.

To say nothing about the way Sam is regards to Steve compared to Natasha & especially St. Bucky.

But shippers are gonna do what shippers are gonna do; especially when canon wildly diverges from fanon.

[scarynikki12]

18 minutes ago, stealinghome said:

The last scene of the Guardians+Thor (where Thor and Quill have their “who is in charge” contest) opens with Peter staring at a screen that says something to the effect of “Searching for Gamora....” There are no hits yet and Peter looks distressed. That implies that Past Gamora is still in the present day, since presumably if she’d been sent back in time, he’d know.

I took that to mean that Quill was searching for the Gamora who was sacrificed for the Soul Stone and was in denial that she didn't return with the others following Hulk's snap. You may be right and part of GG3 will be her doing her own thing before joining the team but that's how I saw that scene.

[VCRTracking]

15 minutes ago, Dee said:

Other than Pepper, Rhodey is established as the most important person in Tony's life. Yet he's ignored by the writers and fans (one guess as to why) for insta-ships in Bruce, Steve, Happy, Peter and eventually Stephen.

Tony can't have more than one friend? He can't have interactions with other characters? Rhodey was the first person to go to Tony as he died. I don't think that relationship has been ignored and if you feel fans have ignored it you're not reading the right boards.

15 minutes ago, Dee said:

Joss unreasonable hatred of all things Clint/Natasha means they get sidelined from any significant character interaction until Endgame (!) as Natasha is forced to play Fay Wray to Bruce's King Kong and Clint babysits the Murder Twins.

Are you talking about how Joss, the one who established that strong bond in the first movie, who fans assumed was romantic because they're a man and a woman. How he established they are best friends who love each other but platonically, that Natasha's the only one who knows about Clint's family and is an honorary aunt to his children?

Edited May 1, 2019 by VCRTracking

[Dee]

3 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

Tony can't have more than one friend? That he can't have interactions with other characters? Rhodey was the first person go to Tony as he died.

There is a direct correlation between Tony's new "friendships" and Rhodey's waning position in Tony's life. Rhodey may have been the first to approach Tony (silently), but who acts as the emotional center of that scene besides Pepper? Exactly.

As far as Clint/Natasha, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Fukui San]

It's interesting to think of this movie as a compendium of many different types of popular movies & shows, just morphing into another one every 5 to 10 minutes.

• Clint loses his fam: A Quiet Place
• The posse gets Thanos: Kill Bill
• Coping with loss: The Leftovers
• Ant Man reappears: Planet of the Apes
• Clint goes vigilante: Zach Snyder movie
• Thor & his roomies: What We Do in the Shadows
• Planning the Time Heist: The Office
• The Time Heist: Bill & Ted
• Clint & Natasha fight to die: Slapstick kung fu movies like Shaolin Soccer
• Cap & Tony in the 50's: Quantum Leap
• Thanos kicks everyone's butt: Alien? No, there has to be a better one. Hmmm....
• Heroes return: Lord of the Rings: Return of the King
• Thanos' demise: The same gag as Raising Arizona
• Tony Stark's ending: Interstellar
• Cap's ending: Lesser Doctor Who

It felt good because all the parts were so familiar as they echo existing tropes, but just he shear scope of it made it epic.

[Jeebus Cripes]

2 hours ago, Kromm said:

I guess that's possible. I bet it gets complicated though!

Think about it. This series of events likely created far more than one new Timeline. Each place a Stone was retrieved from, even if put back, likely created a split.

In fact, it occurred to me that I hope Tony understood that he had to return the stones exactly in reverse Chronological order  At least if they actually wanted to make sure they all got back to the same version of reality they got taken from.

Not only would alternate timelines occur when the stones were stolen, but surely Steve putting them back branched off even more. How the hell does he get the Reality Stone back into Jane for example? 

Wondering what Loki is getting up to with that Space Stone right about now... 

[Perfect Xero]

I think that the writers/directors were trying to have it both ways. They tried to suggest in the Banner/Ancient One chat that you can avoid creating a new timeline as long as you don't change anything major (or if you correct that change quickly enough). The future becomes your past, so you can't just kill Baby Thanos and Nebula can shoot her past self. But also you can just come back a second later and return the stone to the moment you took it to avoid a timeline where there's no Time Stone to protect Earth, so there's no reason to fret over the moral implications that taking the Time Stone doomed every single person in this new timeline to the Dark Dimension in order to save 50% of the life in the original one (we don't trade lives and all that).

IMO the intent of the film was that Steve created a closed loop when he went back to Peggy. Steve was always Peggy's husband, he laid low and avoided changing the timeline and he ended up on that bench the old fashioned way. I think the writers now saying that it was a new timeline and that there's a mysterious reason he ended up on that bench is, basically, a word of god retcon after the fan reaction to all the implications of that.

This version would invalidate the whole point of the return mission in the first place, since it means that there's now a timeline where there's no time stone and everyone is stuck in the Dark Dimension.

Edited May 1, 2019 by Perfect Xero

[Starfish35]

I say this tentatively, because I’m not sure even now I understand how all this time travel stuff is supposed to work, but I think, as a Steggy shipper, ideally (for me) the best ending would have been to bring a version of Peggy forward from the past to the current time, leaving the original Peggy to live out her life as portrayed in Agent Carter and movies prior to Endgame.  That should be possible, right? If Nebula can kill her past self yet still be alive in the present?

I know that probably creates its own set of issues and complications that I haven’t entirely thought through, but I like the idea of seeing Peggy in the future more than I like the idea of Steve going to the past.  I can live with it, since it has been clarified that he did create an alternate timeline, but it still wouldn’t have been my choice, for a multitude of reasons (many of which have already been laid out here by other posters).

Edited May 1, 2019 by Starfish35

[starri]

I think I'm going to go again this weekend.  I NEVER do that.

[Wynterwolf]

I kinda wonder how this will affect the Falcon & Winter Soldier series. I'm sure it will be fine and it will do well, but I wonder how much better it might have done (viewer-wise) if we'd gotten a different ending here.  This ending is the kind of thing that can make a lot of people leave a fandom, because continuing hurts too much.  No way to measure this, obviously (without being able to compare alternate timelines), but I'd be curious...  

[festivus]

48 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

I kinda wonder how this will affect the Falcon & Winter Soldier series. I'm sure it will be fine and it will do well, but I wonder how much better it might have done (viewer-wise) if we'd gotten a different ending here.  This ending is the kind of thing that can make a lot of people leave a fandom, because continuing hurts too much.  No way to measure this, obviously (without being able to compare alternate timelines), but I'd be curious...  

I thought about this too. I'll be watching because Bucky and Sam are two of my favorite characters and I want to see their relationship developed. I hope we will finally get the character development they both deserve. Bucky is such a fascinating character and most of his stuff has just been skipped over so far and all we have had to go on is SS's imo great acting moments to infer where Bucky is at and how he's dealing with things. Sam needs more than being the "I just do everything he does but slower" Cap. Maybe the series will give him some family members. I'd like to see that.

Y'all, I think I could be okay with Steve and the way his story went if I could just see the talk he and Bucky had before he left. I think the F & WS show should show it. I know the movie just wanted its shocking reveal and showing the talk would have taken away from that but I need it. I need to understand why Steve would leave his friends because right now I still don't.

[Wynterwolf]

7 minutes ago, festivus said:

I'll be watching because Bucky and Sam are two of my favorite characters and I want to see their relationship developed.

Mine too, but I'm still debating.  I knew that what happened here would have a huge impact on how I interact with that series, if at all.  I knew they were going to no-homo Steve in some way, I just didn't realize they were going to turn him into a completely different character to do it and I'm not sure I can watch Bucky, having that last scene in my head.  I'll probably just wait until it's finished and see what they do, before I decide.  

But I also feel so badly for Sam, because his huge moment was wrapped up in that travesty (If you enjoyed it, I'm sincerely glad for you. I didn't.).  That should have been a so much bigger moment and to be honest, I'm far more excited to watch Mackie in Altered Carbon than I am this.  

[festivus]

18 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

But I also feel so badly for Sam, because his huge moment was wrapped up in that travesty (If you enjoyed it, I'm sincerely glad for you. I didn't.).  That should have been a so much bigger moment and to be honest, I'm far more excited to watch Mackie in Altered Carbon than I am this.  

I didn't enjoy it, I was sitting there in shock that in this whole fucking movie we weren't going to get anything between Steve and the friend he burned down the world for. I feel really fucking robbed and sad about that because I love Steve and Sam's friendship too. I remember how much I enjoyed Steve taking those steps to make a new friend in this new world he found himself in. CA:WS was just the best movie for friendships. Like has been said better elsewhere, this movie was full of moments for friends and family but we couldn't have two minutes for S & B. No, I don't count that bullshit at the end as a moment. Not for a friendship that was central to three movies. We couldn't even get a moment when Bucky walked out of that portal. Oh but everyone else got a moment. Bitter.

I'm excited for AM in Altered Carbon too. The last guy in that was such a dud. Sorry, off topic I know.

Edited May 1, 2019 by festivus
Didn't like my sentence structure in one part

[johntfs]

The thing about Steve and the rest is that this movie had one main job to do.  It had to end the Avengers - at least in terms of the original team.  Clint is with his family.  Tony and Natasha died heroically.  Bruce is probably teaching and doing research.  Thor is with the Space Thieves, er, Guardians of the Galaxy without the Throne of Asgard hanging over his head.  And Steve, Steve got to live out his life in peace.

Think back a little bit to Age of Ultron.  One thing Ultron said to Cap was "The Soldier, pretending he can live without a war."  By going to live with Peggy he could finally stop being The Soldier.  That was never going to happen in "our" timeline.  There would always have been another mission, battle, war for Captain America, the super-soldier.

And for those who think Steve left another Steve in the ice or left Bucky to suffer, remember that he first had to return Mjolnir and the Stones to the points where they were taken.  Which means that he gave the Time stone back to the Ancient One.  Is it really such a stretch to think he asked her where there was a timeline where maybe another Steve died in the plane crash?  She seems like she'd be cool setting him up with a situation like that.

[Lugal]

After thinking more about it, I think that the timeline is self-healing.  I seem to recall Marvel touched on that in some of their books.  Bruce established that your present is always your present (like what they did in Bill & Ted when they meet themselves both at the beginning and near the end).

Bear with me here, (or Jeremy Bearimy with me.  Sorry) as they said in Spaceballs, that was then and this is now.  When will then be now?  Soon.  Back on topic, we have Now!Nebula who goes back and meets Then!Nebula and kills her.  Now!Nebula continues to exist, because if she did vanish there would be no one to kill Then!Nebula in 2014, and there's a paradox.  So rather than get caught in the loop, the timeline heals itself by keeping Now!Nebula around in a kind of eternal present, which was what Bruce established.

Whew, I think my brain's overheating.

On a more mundane level, I wonder if this timeline stuff is a way to introduce Kang the Conquerer.

[VCRTracking]