Avengers: Endgame (2019)

[markx]

1 hour ago, Kromm said:

 Moreso than on airplanes, throughout the universe there'd be people popping out into the vacuum of space.

Heck, if you think on it, if people ACTUALLY reappeared where they were before EVERY last return would be in the vacuum of space. Space is huge.  Far more area than inside an atmosphere.  And planets, stars, moons... every last one of those things moves. Moons around Planets. Planets around Suns.  Suns around Galactic Arms. Galaxies and all they contain in a continuous expansion apart from each other. NOTHING in this universe stands still. NOTHING.

Okay... so lets assume it had to be a SMART reappearing snap. Nothing else works.

Because everything indeed moves in the Universe, there isn't an absolute concept of "same place but different time", so I'm happy for "same place" to be relative to the earth rather than say the Sun. Given the immense power the stones have, this seems trivial compared to bringing billions of people back to life.

But even if it can't be perfect, I think that's okay too. So some people might still have died from this indirectly who don't get brought back, and all sorts of complications occur from bringing billions of people back five years later. It's giving us things to think about that I like.

I don't think future movies need to go into it in depth - on the other hand I hope they don't ignore it completely.

[I don't know why there's a random smiley on the end of this post that I can't delete... this site's editor drives me mad sometimes!]

🙂

[Kromm]

13 minutes ago, starri said:

The only other two that are currently ready to begin production are Black Widow and Eternals.

So lets start with the guessing. Is Black Widow: The Movie:

1.) a foiler?  The whole project I mean, and another movie is actually going in that release slot?  They REALLY juiced up the profile of Scarlet Witch, to the extent that maybe she could support a solo movie now.

2.) a flashback movie?  But if so, can Scarlett really play a pre-Avengers version of herself?  Because that's how far back they'd have to go for a solo with her to be interesting.

3.) Yelena Belova?  (honestly I don't think so--who'd ask for it to be this or pay to see it?)

4.) a "Search for Spock" type situation (but does that really fit this kind of character?)

Article about this: https://www.thewrap.com/avengers-endgame-we-need-to-talk-about-this-black-widow-movie-situation-natasha-romanov/

Edited April 28, 2019 by Kromm

[Guest]

58 minutes ago, Kromm said:

So lets start with the guessing. Is Black Widow: The Movie:

1.) a foiler?  The whole project I mean, and another movie is actually going in that release slot?  They REALLY juiced up the profile of Scarlet Witch, to the extent that maybe she could support a solo movie now.

2.) a flashback movie?  But if so, can Scarlett really play a pre-Avengers version of herself?  Because that's how far back they'd have to go for a solo with her to be interesting.

3.) Yelena Belova?  (honestly I don't think so--who'd ask for it to be this or pay to see it?)

4.) a "Search for Spock" type situation (but does that really fit this kind of character?)

Article about this: https://www.thewrap.com/avengers-endgame-we-need-to-talk-about-this-black-widow-movie-situation-natasha-romanov/

Scarlet Witch has a streaming series with Vision that has already been confirmed. 

If there is no Black Widow movie or they go forward without Scarlett the backlash would be massive. Prequel is probably the most likely option. With Marvel’s de-aging tech making Scarlett younger would be a breeze. 

[Jeebus Cripes]

Widow's backstory is compelling, and I normally would be super interested in seeing a film about it, but watching it now would just depress the hell out of me. I'm not here for a prequel if she's dead in the now.

Edited April 29, 2019 by Jeebus Cripes

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Lantern7 said:

Also: aside from Far From Home, what's on the MCU schedule after 2019?

The only things officially announced for phase 4 are the disney+ shows. Unofficially it’s believed to be Black Widow, Eternals, Doctor Strange 2, Black Panther 2, Shang-Chi, and Guardians 3. 

[Jeebus Cripes]

There are folks on YouTube maintaining that OldCap has been married to Peggy this whole time in the current timeline, and that Steve travelling back just completed the loop. This theory doesn't hold water. Even if we pretend Peggy was lying in that video Steve was watching in The Winter Soldier, you mean to tell me that she kept her marriage to Steve Rogers a secret from her entire family and trusted co-workers? How would one manage such a thing? Or, even more absurd, pretend that her family knew. So, here's YoungSteve carrying her casket in Civil War, how damned awkward for everyone in the room in on the "secret." This is too dumb. If the Russo's confirm this, I will lose my shit.

[SnoGirl]

5 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

There's a lot of speculation that Nat and 'our" Gamora are stuck in the Soul Stone and they'll be freed in the next (As?)Guardians movie since Guardians 2 pretty heavily implied Adam Warlock would be involved.

Honestly, I wouldn’t even be mad if they did that. I really want a Lady Avengers movie, and I want Widow and our Gamora to be apart of it. We would possibly get to see Nat mourn Tony and talk with old Man Steve.

Also, thought of another stones question, weren’t two stones at Nowhere together too? Weren’t the reality stone and the power stone there at the same time bc of Quill and Thor? I also was surprised they didn’t put together the Soul Stone problem with the sacrifice. Or at least have Danvers research the stones while in space. Lots of “would have, could haves.”

I’ve kinda come to peace with the time traveling ending. Bc I feel like they are opening the door to yank our dead Avengers right out of other timelines bc this is a comic book series. Plus now, we have Shuri back, so technology and Stark’s plans are most likely in her hands.

I can’t wait to see it again. I’ve been trying to warn my friends that the Russo’s “don’t post spoilers” rule might not keep after this weekend. Hell, I posted on FB that I was sad about the movie and people were pissed at me about posting spoilers (I just posted a feeling, my friends better get off the internet bc spoilers are going to just be posted everywhere soon). There is no way people don’t start talking about Downey, Evans, and Johanssen’s demise/ending in this movie.

Edited April 29, 2019 by SnoGirl

[anna0852]

Does anyone else think it's pretty cool that despite half the population disappearing and more people dying as a result, planet Earth kept functioning? There was serious 'Walking Dead level' potential for societal breakdown here and it didn't happen. The pieces got picked up and society kept going. Think about it.

Food production. Clean water. Global shipping. Electricity. Internet. Modern medical care. There are cars on the roads and functioning restaurants. People have the luxury of time to grieve and form support groups. To build lovely and well kept memorials to the dead. No one is scrapping to survive or forming rogue bands of death squads or giving in to their baser instincts.

That's a testament to human will and decency. And probably a hell of an off-screen effort from the Avengers to do what they can to keep things going. I'd love to get a mid-qual that shows us what was going during that time skip.

4 minutes ago, SnoGirl said:

Honestly, I wouldn’t even be mad if they did that. I really want a Lady Avengers movie, and I want Widow and our Gamora to be apart of it. We would possibly get to see Nat mourn Tony and talk with old Man Steve.

I’ve kinda come to peace with the time traveling ending. Bc I feel like they are opening the door to yank our dead Avengers right out of other timelines bc this is a comic book series. Plus now, we have Shuri back, so technology and Stark’s plans are most likely in her hands.

I love all of this!

[Wynterwolf]

3 minutes ago, SnoGirl said:

I’ve kinda come to peace with the time traveling ending. Bc I feel like they are opening the door to yank our dead Avengers right out of other timelines bc this is a comic book series. Plus now, we have Shuri back, so technology and Stark’s plans are most likely in her hands.

Yeah, there's at least one timeline out there now where the Snap likely didn't happen.  

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

There are folks on YouTube maintaining that OldCap has been married to Peggy this whole time in the current timeline, and that Steve travelling back just completed the loop. This theory doesn't hold water. Even if we pretend Peggy was lying in that video Steve was watching in The Winter Soldier, you mean to tell me that she kept her marriage to Steve Rogers a secret from her entire family and trusted co-workers? How would one manage such a thing? Or, even more absurd, pretend that her family knew. So, here's YoungSteve carrying her casket in Civil War, how damned awkward for everyone in the room in on the "secret." This is too dumb. If the Russo's confirm this, I will lose my shit.

This theory creates so many problems with Sharon in Winter Soldier and Civil War. Either she knew and kissed her Uncle Steve knowing full well that he would soon travel back to marry her Aunt Peggy or somehow she was close to her Aunt but did not recognize her Uncle. 

[Perfect Xero]

Just don't stop to consider the possibility that Old Man Steve was actually Avengers 1 Loki.

[SnoGirl]

6 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

Just don't stop to consider the possibility that Old Man Steve was actually Avengers 1 Loki.

YES! Damn trickster God showing up in all the wrong places 😂 and suddenly now we have a theory where Loki also ends up lost in time, working at Shield and becomes friends with Steve and being a decent-ish God.

Hold up. Loki could totally “magic” Steve to not look like Steve. And then solves all the problems of Sharon unknowingly kissing her Uncle and how no one at Shield realized or knew Peggy married Steve Rogers. My new untangled head canon!

[Wynterwolf]

15 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

Just don't stop to consider the possibility that Old Man Steve was actually Avengers 1 Loki.

OMG I love you.  

[tennisgurl]

Lets all just take a moment to thank the true hero of the MCU...that rat that let Scott out of the quantum zone. The hero we deserve!

I have so many thoughts, and most of them are super conflicted, but here are a few of them...

I have such mixed feelings about Caps ultimate fate. The time travel stuff gives me a headache (see below), but is the implication that Steve went to an alternate timeline and lived a full life with Peggy, and then came back to the "prime" timeline, so that he could say goodbye to Sam and Bucky and pass the torch? Because him just going back changing history creates freaking MOUNTAINS of plot holes and raises about a trillion questions that I guess will never be answered. Anyway, beyond plot stuff and into character stuff, on the one hand, I am glad that he got his dance, and that he and Peggy got the happy like that they deserved. On the other hand, I just dont think that it seems in character at this point for him. Steve had a whole life in 2019, he still had stuff he wanted to do, that he deserved to do. I think a fitting ending for him would be him giving the shield to Sam, and then retiring, and just traveling around, finding his place in the world as Steve Rogers, and not Captain America, Living Legend. Him going back just seems to be undoing all the work he did to fit into the new world he found himself in, instead of going forward. And I hate that after all of this, he and Bucky never really just got to hang out or take a road trip with Sam or something. I dont know, maybe my heart just hurts at the thought of saying goodbye to Steve, but I just dont know if its the ending I wanted for him. 

"I am Iron Man." Sniffle. On the other hand, which I wanted Tony to have a happy ending, I do get why they killed him off, and killed him off this way. This franchise started with him, and now this chapter closed with him, and with his most famous, character/franchise defining line. I was really glad he got to have his super cute daughter and his happy life with Pepper, and that he even got some closure with his father, and even though the ending broke my heart, I do get why they did it. 

The Avengers Assemble scene really was freaking amazing. Like, I want it painted on the side of my car, it was that episode. Just everyone showing up gearing up to kick some grapefruit ass, with tons of characters getting cool moments, it really did feel like a massive culmination of all this this work done in this franchise, and all of these characters. It was clearly a victory lap, and it was well deserved. Love it or hate it, what the MCU has done is really an amazing and impressive feat, that no one thought was possible before Nick Fury waltzed into Iron Man in the end credits. Oh yeah, you can tell they were holding onto that Avengers Assemble line for ages, and it was so worth it!

The stuff with Thor was a bit of a mixed bag for me. Fat Thor was frequently hilarious, and Chris Hemmsworth really does have great comic timing, and I do like how much they followed up with how much he lost over the course of the films, and when they played his pain for pathos, it worked really well. But, there were a lot of times when it felt like his miserable state was played so much for laughs, that it felt a bit insulting to his character, and all his development. Like "herreee heerrreeee he got fat! Fat people are hilarious!" instead of really showing how much a toll all of this had taken on him. And while I LOVED the talk with his mother, I was hoping to see future Thor have to interact with past Loki, which I think could have been really interesting. Loki is still all bitter with him and in the midst of being all evil, while Thor has been mourning his brother who he made peace with for years, and thats an interesting dynamic. Also, wasnt his whole arc in Ragnarok that he was ready to be a king? I am also disappointed that they had to nerf his powers, I guess so he wouldn't overpower everyone else.  

Also, apparently Asgaudian rabbits look like raccoons. Go figure. I also liked New Asguard, and Val being around as leader, and seeing Korg and Meik still kicking around. 

When Nat died, a little girl in my theater started crying so hard, her dad had to carry her out of the theater. Big mood, kid. 

I loved the actual time travel plot, it really felt like a celebration of the whole franchise. It was really fun seeing various old characters come back (The Ancient One! The Hydra guys! Freya! Howard!) and seeing everyone doing the Back to the Future 2 thing, with the stuff we already saw happening in the background while the current heroes are sneaking around in the background doing other stuff to prevent time issues. Loved seeing some new bits from other movies, and seeing the old stuff really did give me nostalgia smiles. I dont care if its fanservice, after all these years, I think us fans have earned a bit of gratuitous continuity. That all being said, the time travel stuff makes my brain want to pop. So, if Steve went back to the 40s, was that in an alternate timeline, or has the whole history of the MCU been changed? And what about 2012 Loki? I guess he is sticking kicking about, in another timeline? Or has everything about his character since 2012 been changed now? Did none of his character development since then happen, and has everything in the Thor movies been changed now? Do people now remember a time where Steve Rogers married Peggy Carter in the 40s, and Loki was never sent to Asguard, and never faked his death, got caught, and worked with his brother to fight their even more evil sister? Or are those different timelines? How could oh dear now I've gone cross eyed. 

JARVIS!!!!!

Cap improving the Hail Hydra line to get out of the elevator with the stone had me howling!

I have more thoughts...I just need to collect them...

*Sniffle*
 

[Kromm]

6 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

JARVIS!!!!!
 

Jarvis may be the biggest twist in the movie.

He's the first time, EVER that a TV show originated character has been reflected back into the movies.

[Taryn74]

Went and saw Endgame this morning.  Sunday morning, 9:40 showing, even with it being opening weekend I was not expecting a full theater.  I was wrong.  I stopped by the bathroom first and came in to find my two boys sitting in my favorite row of seats and reminded them they didn't have to sit with hubby and me (they're 14 and 18....LOL....).  Youngest was like, uh, look around.  Theater was packed!  Wow.

Anyway.  Considering that I couldn't even make it through any of the trailers without crying, I knew I needed to go prepared.  Went through about half a pack of tissues, starting with the first few minutes of Hawkeye and his sweet little family picnic, and ending with the actors' signatures in the credits. *tears*

Random thoughts -

I'm okay with just accepting that Happy!Steve and Peggy existed in a separate timeline.  I've never pretended to understand how timey-wimey stuff is supposed to work so I have to handwave it all anyway, heh.  Having said that, I would also have been okay with their "dance" having only been real to Steve, in a kind of nod to the episode of Quantum Leap where Al "dances" with Beth and it's real to him but she thinks she just imagined it, and we're just assuming that they got their happy ending.  IMO it was left vague enough that we can interpret it however it makes us happy.  They even mentioned Quantum Leap by name earlier in the movie 😉 so either way works for me.  Besides, IMO there are a number of things that happened which could have screwed up the Steve Rogers timeline already.  Loki grabbing the tesseract and disappearing, Present!Steve telling Past!Steve that Bucky was alive, heck even Steve whispering Hail Hydra to the guy on the elevator to get him to let him leave with the briefcase could have affected things in a way we may never know.  *shrugs*

Anyone else think Gamora was dusted when Tony snapped?  I know she believed Nebula enough to help them but I don't know, I think she could have still been loyal enough to Thanos to be dusted along with his followers.  Peter was searching for her and got "no result" or something along those lines when Thor came and changed the map he was looking at.  I'm thinking that's got to be important.

Speaking of Peter and Thor, why didn't Peter take the chance to point out that he was still looking pretty fit while Thor had "let himself go" after the grief the others gave him about Thor's godlike physique in Infinity War?  I was totally expecting him to say something even if it would have been completely inappropriate, heh.

I cannot possibly adore Tom Holland as Spiderman more.  He is just perfection.

Nebula and Tony playing paper football was absolutely hilarious.  She just takes everything so seriously and it's so awesome.  "I would like another chance."

AoS's Jarvis!  I literally said "Awww, JARVIS!" when I saw him.

I liked Captain Marvel reminding everyone that Earth isn't the only planet out there and while it may be their only focus, it can't be hers.

This is a somewhat random observation and I may be crazy, but does it seem to anyone else like humans took more of a loss than the animal life did in the snap?  I know Natasha said "fifty percent of all living creatures" but I don't know, considering that it was supposed to be completely random it just seemed like humans took more of a hit than fifty percent.  i.e. Hawkeye survived but his wife and three children did not, Scott's daughter survived but Hope and both of her parents did not, I haven't counted but it seems like more Avengers themselves got dusted than didn't, etc.  It just seemed a bit uneven to me.  Also the devastation five years later seemed more ...intense... to me than what it would have been if fifty percent of humanity had been dusted, especially since enough people SAW the dusting as it happened to know it happened (even if they didn't understand it) rather than people literally just disappeared.  What we saw was more along the lines of I Am Legend kind of devastation, IMO.  Maybe more humans needed to be dusted than animals to truly restore the balance, since that was what Thanos was after?  I don't know how to explain it.

As I mentioned earlier, the theater was packed, and while we didn't have any cheering/clapping during key scenes (quite a bit of laughter at appropriate times though) there were times you could have heard an effing pin drop in that place.  I think that's a testament to the impact these characters have had on our lives for the past decade.

Avengers, I salute you.  Thanks for the memories.  Looking forward to what's to come, but I am grateful for what we've been given.

[tennisgurl]

I really did like this movie, and really I am still standing here impressed that they pulled this off. For having so many balls in the air, they really did pull off an ending that did make sense, gave even characters who weren't in it much some time to shine, and, while there are certainly nits to pick and I was not super happy about every choice made, but the fact that it wasent a full on clusterfuck, is really impressive to me. 

The ending credits were also very appropriately epic. It was generally a real thrill ride, so much that I felt like I was getting whiplash, in a good way. We kept jumping from comedy to drama action to more comedy to more drama, it was a real tight rope. 

Oh, I forgot, Wanda coming at Thanos, and him actually backing up in fear, was amazing. "I dont even know who you are." "You will."

[Raja]

On 4/26/2019 at 10:46 AM, dmeets said:

I think they left a loophole for Loki, since his 2012 self got away with a Tesseract. Although I wasn't quite following Banner's correction on what time travel does to the past/future. I was also surprised Vision stayed gone; I thought for sure we were going to see the white spectral version.

I get why Sam got the shield instead of Bucky, and I know he'll do great with it, but I'm still a little disappointed, because Sam already had a kick-ass Avengers superhero identity in Falcon. Meanwhile Bucky's still Winter Soldier, which he was given while a brainwashed Hydra assassin.

Well Shuri is back in 5 years in the future and Wakanda was not destroyed. If she got enough for the initial save the Vision plan to work she can still rescue him

edit to add:

Bucky already has a new home as the White Wolf of Wakanda

On 4/26/2019 at 3:12 PM, revbfc said:

I’d like to think that Cap lived a quiet life with Peggy, and SHIELD kept it hush-hush.

I'd like to think he was a 50's superhero without a vibranium shield as Agent Carter rose to the Director of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Edited April 29, 2019 by Raja

[Lantern7]

43 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Lets all just take a moment to thank the true hero of the MCU...that rat that let Scott out of the quantum zone. The hero we deserve!

Maybe he/she/it was related to Axel from Legends of Tomorrow. Or fuck it, maybe that WAS Axel.

1 hour ago, Dani said:

Scarlet Witch has a streaming series with Vision that has already been confirmed.

How does Vision come back?

Also, I was thinking the acronym of "SHIELD" came about because Peggy wanted to have something of Steve to last. Still wondering the extent of those two. Would that retcon Agent Carter entirely? Because that was a nice series.

In my mind: "Mr. Stark, we're ready to hel-" "No, you're not. You Inhumans were a dud. A gigantic dud. I mean that, and I can hear your boyfriend angrily signing while he's standing next to you." "That is cruel. We can prov-" "Look, send Lockjaw over here. He can provide the transit so David Strangerfield doesn't have to generate so many portals. Otherwise, shut up."

Edited April 29, 2019 by Lantern7

[Raja]

9 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

Maybe he/she/it was related to Axel from Legends of Tomorrow. Or fuck it, maybe that WAS Axel.

How does Vision come back?

Also, I was thinking the acronym of "SHIELD" came about because Peggy wanted to have something of Steve to last. Still wondering the extent of those two. Would that retcon Agent Carter entirely? Because that was a nice series.

In my mind: "Mr. Stark, we're ready to hel-" "No, you're not. You Inhumans were a dud. A gigantic dud. I mean that, and I can hear your boyfriend angrily signing while he's standing next to you." "That is cruel. We can prov-" "Look, send Lockjaw over here. He can provide the transit so David Strangerfield doesn't have to generate so many portals. Otherwise, shut up."

Not necessarily the series ended around 1948. If Steve came back after that last mission that series continuity holds. But it would suggest Jarvis kept their secret or stopped working with her entirely and went with Howard Stark.

My guess for Vision is Shuri got enough during the Battle of Wakanda

[Morrigan2575]

55 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

How does Vision come back?

Do we know he comes back? Maybe it's set between Civil War and Infinity War? Given the ending between Clint and Wanda, talking about who/what they lost it would be a cheat to bring him back IMO.

I really do think 2018 Gamora, Heimdell, Vision, Nat and Tony are dead dead.

Loki is a question mark for me because he could be dead dead or they setup an out with 2012 Loki getting the Tesseract.

Edited April 29, 2019 by Morrigan2575

[Wynterwolf]

2 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Loki is a question mark for me because he could be dead dead or they setup an out with 2012 Loki getting the Tesseract.

I feel like they really set Loki up as a wild card, because I'm wondering that if between his magic and the Tesseract, if he could literally show up anywhere/when in any timeline.  

[Jeebus Cripes]

2 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

Just don't stop to consider the possibility that Old Man Steve was actually Avengers 1 Loki.

Bwah! This is my new headcannon. 

[jcin617]

Great movie; some practical issues if you stop to think. For instance, the fact that the world’s food and water supply has been geared towards 3.5 billion people for five years and now suddenly has to manage 7+ billion.   

Also it’s going to be somewhat awkward for some people who have moved on with their life to have people suddenly reappear after five years.   Like folks who got remarried.

Who was the random teen/young adult at Tony’s funeral standing alone towards the back?   I didn’t recognize him.   

[Guest]

44 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Do we know he comes back? Maybe it's set between Civil War and Infinity War? Given the ending between Clint and Wanda, talking about who/what they lost it would be a cheat to bring him back IMO.

I thought Coulson was dead dead after the Avengers. Just like the comics anyone can come back. 

9 minutes ago, jcin617 said:

Who was the random teen/young adult at Tony’s funeral standing alone towards the back?   I didn’t recognize him.   

Harley from Iron Man 3. 

Edited April 29, 2019 by Guest

[Raja]

21 minutes ago, jcin617 said:

Great movie; some practical issues if you stop to think. For instance, the fact that the world’s food and water supply has been geared towards 3.5 billion people for five years and now suddenly has to manage 7+ billion.   

Also it’s going to be somewhat awkward for some people who have moved on with their life to have people suddenly reappear after five years.   Like folks who got remarried.

They are saying Spider-Man Far From Home is the last of this MCU phase. I got a feeling Peter,  Ned, and Nick Fury tell the story of the snaptured returning to find half of their peers 5 years more mature.

Most of those birds and ants might have recovered long ago given a faster life cycle, trees though would be tougher. That surviving whales were already entering harbors seems off given the half would still be gone.

[Wynterwolf]

More late night thinky thoughts…

One thing I think maybe a lot of people aren’t realizing in regards to Steve and Bucky is that a great deal of the SteveBucky fandom connects to them through a trauma recovery narrative, and having someone in your life that will fight for you ‘til the end of the line’ even if you’re broken, or messy, and other people shy away from you, or are afraid of you, or if you’re afraid of yourself. 

It’s about that emotional bond, and so having Steve essentially reject a partially recovered Bucky for Peggy (no matter how much that seems to make sense) hurts in a deep down, punch in the gut kind of way and I think a lot of people weren’t prepared for quite how dismissive they were going to be of Steve and Bucky’s relationship. 

And the way that Bucky was basically just a statue, essentially only there to allow Steve to sever their connection was thoughtless and cruel, even as it was unintentional to be so.  So you know, if you know someone who is reacting emotionally or lashing out about that part of the movie, and you think it’s weird and stupid, maybe just try to have a little empathy and compassion and give them a little space to grieve.

[Jeebus Cripes]

6 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

More late night thinky thoughts…

One thing I think maybe a lot of people aren’t realizing in regards to Steve and Bucky is that a great deal of the SteveBucky fandom connects to them through a trauma recovery narrative, and having someone in your life that will fight for you ‘til the end of the line’ even if you’re broken, or messy, and other people shy away from you, or are afraid of you, or if you’re afraid of yourself. 

It’s about that emotional bond, and so having Steve essentially reject a partially recovered Bucky for Peggy (no matter how much that seems to make sense) hurts in a deep down, punch in the gut kind of way and I think a lot of people weren’t prepared for quite how dismissive they were going to be of Steve and Bucky’s relationship. 

And the way that Bucky was basically just a statue, essentially only there to allow Steve to sever their connection was thoughtless and cruel, even as it was unintentional to be so.  So you know, if you know someone who is reacting emotionally or lashing out about that part of the movie, and you think it’s weird and stupid, maybe just try to have a little empathy and compassion and give them a little space to grieve.

You know, the way they handled Steve & Buck in the last two movies really saddens me. I realize these aren't Cap films, and I'm not saying their scenes should pull focus from the plot, but their interactions were so minimal and so very casual that it felt cheap. Their encounter in Infinity War was basically: "Yo, what's up?" Then Buck is dust. Endgame: "See ya later, bro." Then Steve is gone. Regardless if you ship Cap with Buck, Peg, Sharon, or no one in particular, it's insulting to anyone invested in their friendship that the last scenes we see with them carry no depth. This is very likely the last time we see Buck and Steve share the screen, and it felt hollow. This depressed me almost as much as Tony & Nat being dead.

[VCRTracking]

17 hours ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

But PastGamora is now in our present and presumably that's A-OK with the current timeline. If that's how they're gonna roll, then I say we bring Tony, Nat, Vision, and Quicksilver into the present. It's a get out of jail free card and sloppy writing, but they've established it can be done with Gamora, and now I'm like a dog with a bone and will not let this shit go. Gamora being in our present because of timetravel is the biggest game changer aside from undoing the snap, and they're actively ignoring it in the film. Jesus.

I kind of want Wanda to go batshit in the next movie and create her own universe. Everything is wonky as hell now anyways. Might as well descend full on into the madness. 

That Gamora is from the alternate timeline who was only able to travel to the prime one because of the Quantum GPS. That Gamora will never experience what the Gamora of the Guardians of the Galaxy movies did. The Gamora of this timeline is still dead. You go back to the past  retrieve the ones who died and brought them to the prime timeline they'd leave behind loved ones in the alternate timelines. To give Morgan Stark back her daddy in this timeline, you're depriving one of a Morgan of another.

16 hours ago, Kromm said:

I still can't get past the impossibility of all of these things co-existing.

Past Gamora is now brought to the present (I'm calling +5 years that just for simplicity's sake). Thus erasing all of Gamora's actions in three previous movies.  Creating an impossibility, because if Gamora was never in those, then Thanos never could have sacrificed her in the first place.

Past Nebula and Present Nebula both show up in the Present, and Past Nebula is killed. And not by a snap, but by later self.  So it's undoable.  Present Nebula even existing is now impossible.

Past Thanos goes to the Present and is snapped into non-existence. If we wank him being returned to the past instead, it only works if all his memories of these events are erased too. But even if so, Nebula CAN'T also be returned and that also irrevocably changes the past.

So it's a new parallel Universe. But if so why does it MATTER if the Stones are put back?  But lets say it does.  Those Stones go back.  And heck, Thanos and his minions are put back with erased memories.  But again, Nebula can't be, and Gamora probably WON'T be put back.  But meanwhile Rogers is there plodding ahead in time the hard way, having replaced those stones, but then we have to wank a CROSS-DIMENSIONAL jump by him, because there's no way this could be the same universe anymore.  The issue of if he'd stand by and let other bad things go on put aside (if we conclude he DID create an alternate universe then why NOT act when he needed to?) we then have to add that cross universe jump to close the loop. Or NONE of this works no matter how hard you wank it.

It matters because without the Time Stone put back, Doctor Strange won't be able to use it against Dormammu and as the Ancient One said they'd be screwing over alternate timelines they created. Thanos and his minions are dead. Not put back to their reality. So that 2014 timeline no longer is any danger from him I'm assuming.

A nice timeline chart I found on Tumblr.

https://coeurdepierrre.tumblr.com/post/184506376368/mulaneysbutt-endgame-spoilers-please-do-not

Edited April 29, 2019 by VCRTracking

[Racj82]

9 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

They've specifically stated that it takes place directly after Endgame.  

They also said everything in the first endgame trailers all took place in the first act. Not true. And I don't care. I would love it if far from home was actually before infinity war and we just didn't know it.

[Grace19]

Good movie. Loved it but hated Steve going back too the past.

hated what they did with Thor. Fun Thor is cool, but they went too far with it.

Tony got the best arc. I lost it when pepper told him to rest.

Third act was out-of-this-world good.

Paul Rudd was great,

Scarlett Johansson was MVP acting wise.

Loved Professor Hulk.

Wish we got more Carol but the little we got was good, hello strongest avenger.

Wanda was awesome.

Loved the ladies fight scene.

Yea! My girl Gamora is back, at least  version of her. 

That was a satisfying end to infinity saga, even though I didn't like some of the choices they made.

[Morrigan2575]

3 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

That Gamora is from the alternate timeline who was only able to travel to the prime one because of the Quantum GPS. That Gamora will never experience what the Gamora of the Guardians of the Galaxy movies did. The Gamora of this timeline is still dead. You go back to the past  retrieve the ones who died and brought them to the prime timeline they'd leave behind loved ones in the alternate timelines. To give Morgan Stark back her daddy in this timeline, you're depriving one of a Morgan of another

This is where it all gets so confusing. I was calling her time displaced Gamora but, I guess AU might be more accurate. It's hard to tell what the heck is going on with time travel stories, so i just roll with it.

5 hours ago, Dani said:

I thought Coulson was dead dead after the Avengers. Just like the comics anyone can come back. 

Sure they could. I just don't see why they would or should. Endgame seems very much like a wrap up to the first 10 years. Bringing Vision back serves no real purpose when there are other ways they can tell the story.

[galaxygirl76]

12 hours ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

There are folks on YouTube maintaining that OldCap has been married to Peggy this whole time in the current timeline, and that Steve travelling back just completed the loop. This theory doesn't hold water. Even if we pretend Peggy was lying in that video Steve was watching in The Winter Soldier, you mean to tell me that she kept her marriage to Steve Rogers a secret from her entire family and trusted co-workers? How would one manage such a thing? Or, even more absurd, pretend that her family knew. So, here's YoungSteve carrying her casket in Civil War, how damned awkward for everyone in the room in on the "secret." This is too dumb. If the Russo's confirm this, I will lose my shit.

Does this mean that Peggy let Howard waste all that time and recources on trying to find Steve? My brain hurts so much trying to make this Steve thing work. 

[Wynterwolf]

7 hours ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

This is very likely the last time we see Buck and Steve share the screen, and it felt hollow.

A lot of trauma-recovering and neurodivergent people identify really strongly and instinctively with Bucky, and with the way that Seb plays him. So the fact that Steve could love Bucky so fiercely, would burn down the world for him, let them feel like hey, maybe they could be loved too? (storytelling is powerful)  So with Steve so casually rejecting Bucky here, it feels like Steve rejecting them too (and good god, the look on Bucky’s face… **dies again**). 

And then when you add in the implications of the time travel:

TimeLoop!Steve:  can happily and comfortably ignore the fact that Bucky is somewhere being tortured for 70 years and turned into Hydra’s Fist.

AlternateTimeline!Steve – maybe finds and rescues that timeline’s Bucky, essentially discarding and trading in the old, broken model, for a new, less broken one.

So my brain’s Steve – STEVE WAS KIDNAPPED!!! 

[benteen]

I thought it was great.  The culmination of an amazing decade of movies and world-building.  Well done, Marvel.

The whole scale of this film was really impressive, as was the cast they put together.  They got Robert Redford back to do a cameo...that's how impressive their casting has always been.

I think the most emotional part for me was when all the heroes returned who had been snapped out of existence in the previous picture.  I found knowing Tony was going to die to be more emotional and I was happy that Steve got his happy ending with Peggy although that opens up a LOT of issues and problems (some of which involving Sharon Carter).  I also think that Natasha's death got glossed over.  I kept expecting her to come back.

This movie reminded me how truly great Chris Evans has been in the role of Captain America.  I've had some issues with it among other things but Evans is fantastic.  Cap's "Hail Hydra" moment and finding picking up Thor's hammer were big crowd pleasers with the audience I saw it with.  Cap vs Cap was pretty awesome too.  I kind of laughed that Old Cap looked a lot like Clint Eastwood, which is fitting.

Robert Downey Jr. deserves a lot of credit for being the first and not surprisingly delivered here.  I'm sad that Tony died but it was fitting ending to a fitting character arc for him.

Thor was a lot of fun though I was surprised they kept him fat for the rest of the movie.  The stuff with the Guardians was great and I can't wait for the 3rd movie.

I loved the trips back to the previous films, which was a great celebration of what had went on before.  Even Rene Russo finally got to have a great scene in the MCU.

The world-building was impressive in this film, particularly during the five-year jump.  New Asgard alone looks like it has fun potential.

I admit, I was hoping that Bucky would get the shield next, just like in the comics.  That was when I started reading Captain American on a regular basis.  But Sam is a great choice too and I'm really looking forward to the Falcon and Winter Soldier series.

I like that we got Smart Hulk and thought his scene with The Ancient One during the Battle of New York (cool seeing her in action there) was excellent.

Jeremy Renner was given a chance to shine here and delivered.  Karen Gillan has been a very underrated performer in the MCU (and has her character Nebula) and was an MVP in this film.

The deaging tech continues to be great with John Slattery, not to mention Michael Douglas looking like he did during his old Streets of San Francisco days.  Was very surprised but pleasantly so to see James D'Arcy appear as Jarvis.

Not enough Rocket in this film but he's always fun, particularly when he asked Carol if she was going to get another haircut.

One complaint...for God's sake, will Quill FINALLY VISIT HIS GRANDFATHER TO LET HIM KNOW HE'S ALL RIGHT?!!!!  That man has suffered enough!

Speaking of Quill, his character didn't exactly look that great in these two movies.

Great battle scenes all around.

I'm not sure how interested I'll be in some of these Phase Four movies going forward but think that the future is bright and intriguing for the MCU, with some great possibilities moving forward (and really looking forward to Thor and the Guardians).  Great job!

[tennisgurl]

So, the timeline has just become Jeremy Bearimy? 🙂 

[shrewd.buddha]

It was impressive, nostalgic and bittersweet. Just juggling that amount of actors was an incredible feat. I am glad to have been able to see it before the spoilers become inevitable. 

It was very good .. but I think it could have been great if the Russo's had not been determined to have their cake and eat it, too. If Tony had been forced to choose between bringing back the 'snapped' or the existence of his daughter: that would have been Shakespearean level drama. It looks as if they decided to go for total wish fulfillment. 

As others have mentioned, there would be massive issues with 3 billion people suddenly reappearing in a world that had been recovering for 5 years:  broken relationships, abandoned businesses, re-sold houses, etc. I guess people who died in plane crashes and other disasters during the first 'snap' don't get a re-do.

Steve Roger's re-do also has way too many glossed-over ramifications: Did he just let Hydra happen?  Did he just let Bucky spend years as a prisoner? It is difficult to believe Steve's inherent 'goodness' would allow him to just sit by during all those years. 

Captain Marvel's involvement was handled well - but they still do not seem to have a very good handle on the character. She never seems to acknowledge that she is a human. from Earth. Going forward, it will be interesting to see how Marvel Studios will use the character. 

Edited April 29, 2019 by shrewd.buddha

[Lady Calypso]

I think, knowing that this was going to be Chris Evans' last film in the MCU, definitely made it harder to figure out a perfect ending for Steve Rogers. With this being his last film, and with how vocal Chris has been about that, it's all about what ending he could have had that would satisfy fans. I mean, they could have killed Cap off entirely, given him that big moment instead of Tony, and that could have been a decent ending. But they went with this ending, with him getting his happy ending with growing old and living a fulfilled life.

I do agree that the bigger issue is more that they had Steve end up with Peggy, which creates a bigger issue of wonky timeline plotholes. It's clear that Steve would have had to live in hiding/seclusion for many years until he was old enough where nobody would recognise him. I think, with the other alternate timelines that were created (Thanos/Gamora/Nebula, Loki taking off with the Tesseract), I can believe that Steve just allowed himself to create an alternate timeline for him and Peggy. But they did heavily imply that Steve did live in this main timeline and that he was Peggy's actual husband, since he appeared on that bench as an old man in regular clothes instead of the Quantum costume. 

I know that time travel is something that will never actually work out in terms of offering any sensible explanation. I mean, this film also is dealing with Loki taking off with the Tesseract and it being unclear as to how Steve actually fixes THAT issue....as well as the whole Present Nebula killing Past Alt Nebula and how that somehow connects together if Steve fixes the branched timelines to reconnect them to the main timeline. The main MCU still seems to need those branches as canon to make things make sense. 

So, despite all the talk about time travel working differently than in other classic films/television shows, it still requires some alternate universes branching off from this main one; those still need to count in some way in order for everything to merge back up. 

Honestly, the only change they really needed was a hint that Steve lived in an alternate universe and came back as an old man after living a fulfilled life, instead of implying that he lived in the main timeline as Peggy's husband. Because yes, even though he deserved a quiet and happy life with Peggy, and even though he knew that he couldn't physically change anything from happening, I think the good man in Steve wouldn't have been as happy as we are led to believe. Like Tony, he could only live a happy life with a family for so long before the weight of the world fell on his shoulders. 

[Starfish35]

29 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

It's clear that Steve would have had to live in hiding/seclusion for many years until he was old enough where nobody would recognise him. 

I mean, I love Steggy.  I do. That’s always been my favorite MCU pairing.  But.  Yeah.  Nothing about this sounds like a happy ending for Steve.  Living in hiding, forced to just sit by while all the bad things happened in those 60-70 years......that all just sounds horrible to me.  ☹️  

[JessePinkman]

I've ALWAYS been a Marvel fanboy. from the X-Men animated series to my first foray into The Avengers during Kurt Busiek's run in the 90s...this weekend has felt fucking magical. They did EVERYTHING I could have wanted on the big screen. A comic book come to life, fulfilling dreams I didn't even know I HAD.

Let me be hyperbolic, it almost felt out of body watching Cap, my Cap, pick up Mjolnir. He DID THAT. Of COURSE he did that! He's Captain Motherfucking America!

And then, and THEN when he said THE line. I've spent 20 years without realizing it, waiting to hear that line on the big screen. It was euphoric.

I think what I loved most about this movie is that it while it absolutely gave people what they wanted, it also made some hard decisions that no one wanted at all in killing off Natasha, Tony and aging Steve. Those must have been really difficult to come to but made sense for the story and the journey these characters have been on for a decade.

I need to see this at least 5 more times.

[Guest]

‘Avengers: Endgame’: The Screenwriters Answer Every Question You Might Have

Interesting interview but it doesn’t address most of the questions being brought up here. 

2 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

Captain Marvel's involvement was handled well - but they still do not seem to have a very good handle on the character. She never seems to acknowledge that she is a human. from Earth. Going forward, it will be interesting to see how Marvel Studio's will use the character. 

A big reason for that is that Endgame was filmed before the script for Captain Marvel was completed. 

[galaxygirl76]

Were my ears deceiving me or did Scarlet Witch's Russian accent appear again in the few lines she had?

[Taryn74]

2 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Honestly, the only change they really needed was a hint that Steve lived in an alternate universe and came back as an old man after living a fulfilled life, instead of implying that he lived in the main timeline as Peggy's husband.

I guess I just don't understand why it can't be that he DID live a happy and fulfilled life in an alternate universe....WITH Peggy as her husband.  And rescued Bucky before he was turned into the Winter Soldier, and helped rid Shield of Hydra, etc etc.  All in the alternate universe.  And then knew when and where to pop back into this one to give the shield to Sam.  I mean, he could have been sitting over there on that bench reflecting for half an hour before they even sent present day Steve into the past with the stones, just waiting for it to all finish up so they would know to look for him.  LOL.

As I mentioned upthread, the timey wimey stuff messes with my head anyway so I admit I don't overthink the possibilities and ramifications, but this idea totally works for me.  *shrug*

[Lady Calypso]

42 minutes ago, Taryn74 said:

I guess I just don't understand why it can't be that he DID live a happy and fulfilled life in an alternate universe....WITH Peggy as her husband.  And rescued Bucky before he was turned into the Winter Soldier, and helped rid Shield of Hydra, etc etc.  All in the alternate universe.  And then knew when and where to pop back into this one to give the shield to Sam.  I mean, he could have been sitting over there on that bench reflecting for half an hour before they even sent present day Steve into the past with the stones, just waiting for it to all finish up so they would know to look for him.  LOL.

As I mentioned upthread, the timey wimey stuff messes with my head anyway so I admit I don't overthink the possibilities and ramifications, but this idea totally works for me.  *shrug*

Well, it's because they didn't show Steve coming back from his alternate universe, so it leaves the question about it. It makes sense for this to be the case, but since they don't confirm it, it feels like he's been Peggy's canonical husband all this time. Again, even just a simple change in him mentioning how he got back (I could absolutely buy that he used HQ's platform to travel back and that he got changed and made his way over to Tony's home for the funeral) and that would probably satisfy viewers. It's more that viewers wanted just a more clear answer on what happened with Steve, rather than leaving it as ambiguous as they did. We know Steve would have needed to use a platform in order to get back anyway. Him appearing on the bench in civilian clothes does imply that he stuck around in the past to marry Peggy and just drove over from wherever he's been all these years.

Edit: Although....now that I'm remembering things, HQ was destroyed so that wouldn't work anyway. Steve would have needed to come back in that exact location at some point if he traveled through time. 

Edited April 29, 2019 by Lady Calypso
Forgot about that one important plot point

[Sakura12]

17 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Also, apparently Asgaudian rabbits look like raccoons. Go figure. I also liked New Asguard, and Val being around as leader, and seeing Korg and Meik still kicking around. 

Maybe raccoons on Asgard are called rabbits. On that note I wanted to see Rocket see an actual raccoon and go that's why everyone always looks at me like that. 

I'm done thinking about the time travel stuff it's making my head hurt and I had enough to deal with this movie and GoT.

Edited April 29, 2019 by Sakura12

[Melina22]

Despite being very old, last night, armed with a bag of Cheezies and an energy drink, I went to the 11 pm showing of Avengers Endgame in 3D, and what a fabulous, fabulous experience! It was so satisfying to feel part of a worldwide cultural experience that was just so much fun. The place was packed, mainly with young guys. Despite only having seen a few of the MCU movies, maybe 5 or 6, I LOVED the movie. It just flew by. 

For me, seeing it in 3D was vital. I felt totally immersed in the experience, like I was standing beside the characters and seeing them like I would IRL. I'm aware that this doesn't work for everybody, but for me it made the whole experience utterly memorable. 

As an aside, am I the only one who thought RDJ looked shockingly thin, almost skeletal? But refreshingly "natural" and unretouched by plastic surgery. 

I'd go back and see it again, after watching Avengers Infinity War, but only if it was in 3D. 

[Taryn74]

33 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

It's more that viewers wanted just a more clear answer on what happened with Steve, rather than leaving it as ambiguous as they did.

Yeah, I can understand that.  I guess I'm enough of an old-school X-Files fan that I prefer NOT to have everything explained.  I'd rather speculate and figure out what works best for my head canon.  *grin*

36 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

We know Steve would have needed to use a platform in order to get back anyway.

Maybe Alt!Universe Howard Stark figured something else out for him.  😉

[Wynterwolf]

1 hour ago, Dani said:

‘Avengers: Endgame’: The Screenwriters Answer Every Question You Might Have

Interesting interview but it doesn’t address most of the questions being brought up here. 

Wow.  Well, it does answer a few.  So they did literally change to an alternate 'what if' timeline for Endgame, I almost posted earlier that it felt like they changed to a alternate universe after the Snap.  That explains so much.  And dude, getting a dance and staying are two wildly different things.  It would have been awesome and beautiful and bittersweet in the best possible way if Steve had gone back to get his dance, and then went home to his found family.  Man, male-dominated, hetero-normative googles are a helluva drug.  They literally treated Peggy like a prize won at a carnival game.  And Natasha, dearheart, you deserved a so much better sendoff than this.  

Also, this thread makes some very good points about the ethos/pathos of Superhereos:

[Melina22]

On 4/26/2019 at 8:09 PM, Wynterwolf said:

Seriously though, we’ve become so enamored of watching fictional people suffer and die, it’s almost like the modern version of cheering for gladiators dying in the colosseum.  But this is okay, (right???), because no one actually dies, but… honestly, I think after a certain point, it still leaves an emotional stain

It was sort of eerie to read this today because just yesterday I thought the exact same thing while my husband was watching GOT. And then we went to see Avengers Endgame. 

So this thought does haunt me. Although to be fair, Avengers Endgame has a strong thread of justice and kindness running through it. You can't say that for GOT. 

[JessePinkman]

13 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

Also, this thread makes some very good points about the ethos/pathos of Superhereos:

Steve didn't get a woman, he got a life. Peggy was just a part of that.

I think treating Peggy as if she was some sort of reward for saving the world diminishes her character immensely. She helped to found SHIELD and lead a rich and full life without Steve. Then Steve went back and lived a rich and full life with her. She was not presented as this...thing he was given. She was a fully realized person in her own right and they ended up together and happy. What is so wrong with that?

Edited April 29, 2019 by JessePinkman