S07.E28: Modern Families

[druzy]

Mackenzie and Ryan welcome their first baby to the world so Maci wants to make sure all the kids have a big, happy, blended family.

Bristol feels guilty about Tripp's dwindling relationship with Dakota after the divorce.

Amber & Kristina join forces.

Airs December 3, 2018

[Calm81]

45 minutes ago, druzy said:

Mackenzie and Ryan welcome their first baby to the world so Maci wants to make sure all the kids have a big, happy, blended family.

Bristol feels guilty about Tripp's dwindling relationship with Dakota after the divorce.

Amber & Kristina join forces.

Airs December 3, 2018

I just watched the “Amber & Kristina join forces clip” so I will put my thoughts in the spoilers Incase others don’t want to know before the episode airs.

Spoiler

What’s next for Leah? Are they going to air “Amber and Kristina join forces on teaching Leah about Aunt Flo and the difference between pads and tampons.” I felt so bad for the Leah because she doesn’t understand how private that should be.

If kids in MY class saw a clip of my MOMs teaching me how to shave my “HAIRY” legs o wouldn’t hear the end of it from my immature 10 year old male classmates. 

Is Bentley getting the condom talk soon? Or why he wakes up with wet dreams? 😠 

Sorry, I’m just in a bitchy mood so if I’m being too sensitive I’m just feeling emotional today. 😘

[druzy]

2 hours ago, Calm81 said:

I just watched the “Amber & Kristina join forces clip” so I will put my thoughts in the spoilers Incase others don’t want to know before the episode airs.

  Hide contents

What’s next for Leah? Are they going to air “Amber and Kristina join forces on teaching Leah about Aunt Flo and the difference between pads and tampons.” I felt so bad for the Leah because she doesn’t understand how private that should be.

If kids in MY class saw a clip of my MOMs teaching me how to shave my “HAIRY” legs o wouldn’t hear the end of it from my immature 10 year old male classmates. 

Is Bentley getting the condom talk soon? Or why he wakes up with wet dreams? 😠 

Sorry, I’m just in a bitchy mood so if I’m being too sensitive I’m just feeling emotional today. 😘

Don't be sorry. I was angry when I saw that clip. I would be humiliated if I was Leah. 

[druzy]

[druzy]

[ginger90]

Good thing they did this at Christina and Gary’s. Imagine Amber’s bathroom? Yuck.

Filming it for the show is not something I would do to my daughter.

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

Middle school was seriously the worst part of my life.  Kids - especially tween girls - are so damn mean at that age.  Even if Leah is cool with it (not that she really can consent to this as a kid) and the parents are, too, those middle school girls are going to be awful about this.  They'll be able to find it on the internet for years to come.  They really should have thought about the teasing Leah is going to get over this.  

This isn't the Kardashians.  This scene could have happened years ago between Kendall, Kylie, and some of the older K sisters and I wouldn't be as worried about kids teasing the Jenner girls about this being shown on TV.  They lived in a world of celebrities and celebrity-adjacent kids in their Calabasas/private school/rich-kid enclave and everyone knew stuff like this was part of the family's "shtick".  Leah may be on reality TV, but she's not like other reality TV show kids like the Kardashians, Real Housewives kids, etc.  She doesn't attend school with other kids who have family members/friends' parents involved in the world of reality TV/entertainment or who are TV personalities.  Best I know, Leah goes to public school with normal kids who are very much removed from the world that say Kendall and Kylie grew up in.  Leah will be tormented for this and it's there forever online for her classmates to watch over and over (and ridicule her about over and over).  My objection to this being shown is purely because I can practically hear the tween girls being Leah to over this and it hasn't even aired yet. It's prime material for mean girls to use to pick on someone and this show (and Leah's parents) served it to those mean girls on a silver platter.

Poor Leah.

I know we joke that this show will still be on when the kids are parents themselves, but at this point I think it may actually happen.  This show has been on far too long. 

Y'all know somewhere in the Carolinas, Carly is counting her lucky stars that while her classmates may be able to tease her about her bioparents naming their new baby Tezlee or Tyler's awful poetry, at least they can never tease her for learning how to shave her legs on national television.  

Edited December 6, 2018 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[FlowerofCarnage]

Kristina is Leah's mother in every way that counts, Amber.

I could tell from the sonogram that baby Twizzlers inherited Cate's unfortunate head shape.

I

[druzy]

Why all the initial M's on the wall going up the stairs in Maci's house? It can't be because Maci's name starts with an M or can it? 

ETA: I just realized their last name is Mckinny. I always think of her as Maci Bookout. I still think it's overkill. 

Edited December 4, 2018 by druzy

[VioletNevermind]

Bristol to her poor son: “I fully support you having a relationship with Dakota.  He was a big part of your life.  Do you want a relationship with Dakota?”

Her poor son: “Ehh.”

This whole thing is pretty sad, but that made me laugh and laugh and laugh.  “Ehh,” indeed.  

Hey, Bristol?  Maybe take a man break, hon.  You have kids to focus on.  

Edited December 4, 2018 by SuzyLee

[druzy]

Amber and Andrew in robes sitting on the couch in their first scene. They're punking us right?

[VioletNevermind]

NuMatt couldn’t find anything but a big, fuzzy, polar bear bathrobe to throw on for this week’s couch scenes?!  Give me strength.

Amber makes me absolutely sick.  If anyone should have the honor (at least that’s how I viewed it with my own daughter) of the sweet, girly bonding moment of teaching Leah how to shave her legs, it’s Kristina.  I hate that Amber is even discussing this on national television.  I would have murdered my mother if she had discussed my hairy pre-pubescent legs in front of the entire world.  Just another reason why this show (and these useless heifers) should be put out to pasture ASAP so these poor children can grow up in peace.  Childhood is hard enough, ya’ll.  They don’t need this crap from the so-called adults in their lives.

[druzy]

Please tell me Cate doesn't own all of those horses they showed in the opening of her second segment. 

Edited December 4, 2018 by druzy

[Chris Knight]

Lol whoever mentioned last week that Amber's scenes always start with some reference to spending time with Leah.

And yes, Kristina is Leah's mother. No one would argue that point. She lives with Kristina, spends virtually all waking and sleeping moments with her, Kristina listens to her, comforts her, laughs with her, provides for her, makes all her meals and washes her clothes. Amber, you visit a few times per year.

[druzy]

Poor Leah. I would be humiliated and destroyed emotionally. 

Why is Cheyenne always having a party?

[Chris Knight]

Did Ryan's parents move or paint their house  ?

OMG Cate please cover up !

Butch looks so different. Hes got some floppy ears on him. 

[druzy]

I'm rooting for Butch! 

[druzy]

Andrew reading to baby James was hilarious! 

[woodscommaelle]

19 minutes ago, druzy said:

Andrew reading to baby James was hilarious! 

What was even better was that it was a cartoon from The New Yorker.  lol!

Bentley's a cool kid.  **he used to bug me**  Jen and Larry are getting a Ryan-do-over with him.  

Bristol is a shitty mother for asking her son his personal feelings about Dakota on film.  

Edited December 4, 2018 by woodscommaelle

[Chris Knight]

Enough with the flashbacks  ! They are really reaching tonight...

At the Baltierra family dinner, we were treated to all of them shoveling food in, appetizing.

Amber Baltierra's daughter looks very angry. 

Amber herself needs a chin.

Kim is practically clicking her heels together over this separation. 

Isn't everyone sober when they are 9 ?

[FlowerofCarnage]

Amber wants to be present for milestones and rights of passage soley because she thinks that's what makes for a good mom. It's still all about her in the end. 

I am disappointed in Kristina because I thought she had a enough sense to know that the situation with Leah should have been kept off the air. I know she isn't  very confrontational but I would think she would confer with Gary that this isn't  something that is appropriate to film and let him handle it. 

*Shallow note*

Ryder is ridiculously cute. I could just eat her up. 

I honestly think that Bentley isn't  as excited about the arrival of baby Jägerbomb as he puts on.

The frustration Tyler expressed  during this ep, to me, was his anger at himself for impregnating Cate again.  I also feel like this trial separation is a consultation  from him wanting a divorce. The couple's  retreat was a last ditch effort that failed but then Cate conveniently got pregnant. He needs that month alone to decompress a bit.

[Lynnlynnlynn586]

15 minutes ago, FlowerofCarnage said:

Amber wants to be present for milestones and rights of passage soley because she thinks that's what makes for a good mom. It's still all about her in the end. 

I am disappointed in Kristina because I thought she had a enough sense to know that the situation with Leah should have been kept off the air. I know she isn't  very confrontational but I would think she would confer with Gary that this isn't  something that is appropriate to film and let him handle it. 

*Shallow note*

Ryder is ridiculously cute. I could just eat her up. 

I honestly think that Bentley isn't  as excited about the arrival of baby Jägerbomb as he puts on.

The frustration Tyler expressed  during this ep, to me, was his anger at himself for impregnating Cate again.  I also feel like this trial separation is a consultation  from him wanting a divorce. The couple's  retreat was a last ditch effort that failed but then Cate conveniently got pregnant. He needs that month alone to decompress a bit.

I agree Tyler wants a divorce...

[ghoulina]

I literally pee during Maci's segments. I do love me some Bentley, though. That's a good kid right there. 

 

I feel like Dakota gets more scenes than Bristol. Here's an idea - if you're concerned about the situation with Tripp, just ASK Bristol if you can see him/talk to him. Damn. These two are worse than allies vs. axis.

 

I feel stupid, but I'm kind of rooting for Cheyenne and Cory. They just seem so natural together. And I like that they grew into their relationship and didn't feel the need to get together right away because of their kid. 

 

Are Tyler and Cate really going to separate? I'm having my doubts. He laid down some real truth, though - "I have to find a way to support Catelynn without destroying me."

 

I am APPALLED that they shaved Leah's legs on camera. Come on. Give the girl some privacy.

And I liked how Amber acted like she was some benevolent saint for allowing Kristina to be part of it, even though she's not Leah's mom. Bitch, you wouldn't even KNOW about the situation if Kristina didn't tell you.

[RedheadZombie]

50 minutes ago, woodscommaelle said:

What was even better was that it was a cartoon from The New Yorker.  lol!

Bentley's a cool kid.  **he used to bug me**  Jen and Larry are getting a Ryan-do-over with him.  

Bristol is a shitty mother for asking her son his personal feelings about Dakota on film.  

I don't know.  Dakota's playing the traumatized war-veteran martyr, and is claiming to adore Tripp without having displayed any interest in him post-divorce.  If Bristol is simply documenting for the public that Tripp doesn't want to be around his former step-father, I kind of don't blame her.  I certainly don't blame Tripp, who is probably a little traumatized by the explosive PTSD moments with Dakota.  Tripp is too young to understand PTSD, and most likely sides with his mother who would be understandably frightened in these moments.  Even long-term loving marriages are destroyed by war PTSD, and Bristol and Dakota never had the pre-PTSD time together.

I sympathize with combat veterans and the horror they've seen and experienced.  But Dakota opened with this story line and brings it up every single episode and marinades in his misery.  Someone needs to get this guy intense, ongoing therapy with a trauma therapist.

Disclaimer:  I despise the Palins.

[Caseysgirl]

Cheyenne is totally using the Teen Mom franchise to reel Corey ( a man who never saw a camera he didn’t like) in. i don’t think  they are a  cute couple but they are a couple of fame whores who deserve one another. I don’t necessarily care if I see them on my TV.

[RedheadZombie]

16 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

I literally pee during Maci's segments. I do love me some Bentley, though. That's a good kid right there. 

 

I feel like Dakota gets more scenes than Bristol. Here's an idea - if you're concerned about the situation with Tripp, just ASK Bristol if you can see him/talk to him. Damn. These two are worse than allies vs. axis.

 

I feel stupid, but I'm kind of rooting for Cheyenne and Cory. They just seem so natural together. And I like that they grew into their relationship and didn't feel the need to get together right away because of their kid. 

 

Are Tyler and Cate really going to separate? I'm having my doubts. He laid down some real truth, though - "I have to find a way to support Catelynn without destroying me."

 

I am APPALLED that they shaved Leah's legs on camera. Come on. Give the girl some privacy.

And I liked how Amber acted like she was some benevolent saint for allowing Kristina to be part of it, even though she's not Leah's mom. Bitch, you wouldn't even KNOW about the situation if Kristina didn't tell you.

I've had the feeling all along that Cory and Cheyenne have been together since before filming, and Zach is there to build up the love triangle and make us root for Cory.  Zach has always been awkward around Cheyenne, and they seem to smile inappropriately in their scenes together.

P.S. My feeling is only strengthened by R. KyleLynn (is that truly what they call her?) asking Cory to be godfather to her child.

Edited December 4, 2018 by RedheadZombie

[DangerousMinds]

How old is Leah, 9? I was a pretty hairy kid but still waited until I was 13 to beg to be allowed to shave my legs.

[Stusan]

40 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

I literally pee during Maci's segments. 

Oh, @ghoulina, you had me thinking, "She pees herself? Is Maci really that funny that she makes people pee?"

Then the realization hit. Then I almost peed from laughing at MYSELF. (Which doesn't take much after giving birth to two kids.)

[FrankieTankie]

Why does Dakota always look like he never showers and smell like mud butt?! 

Also who is picking out Tyler’s clothing and his accessories.... dude looks ridiculous... pathetic 

Of course who wouldn’t ask their sisters baby daddy to be their kids god father makes perfect sense ... people really are this stupid 

[Chellichik]

I can't be the only one who caught that tacky naked picture of Cheyenne's sister at the baby shower, am I?  

Baaz???  Dear god.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Chellichik

[eskimo]

It'll never happen but...It would be best if Cate realizes she feels relief at not having to force this mostly dead marriage any longer.  Except she doesn't realize how far gone it actually is.  She might know if she'd actually watched the show, or listened when he tried to talk to her.  If she'd paid attention two or three years ago they might not be here at all, but even if they were it wouldn't be the blindside it's about to be. 

[AhFillAck]

4 hours ago, FlowerofCarnage said:

Kristina is Leah's mother in every way that counts, Amber.

I could tell from the sonogram that baby Twizzlers inherited Cate's unfortunate head shape.I

LMFAO!!!!!!

3 hours ago, Chris Knight said:

Enough with the flashbacks  ! They are really reaching tonight...

At the Baltierra family dinner, we were treated to all of them shoveling food in, appetizing.

Oh hey, you mean THIS? 

This episode was particularly infuriating with people asking "Are you excited?" (or in the Maci segments, "Are you exotted?") It makes my head vibrate with rage hearing that eighty times per episode.

What HomeGoods-inspired tacky-ass signs was Maci painting? Although HomeGoods probably wouldn't sell one that said "I like her butt" or whatever that was. I can't stand all that mainstream dime-a-dozen décor. 

I guess the highlight of the episode was Butch carving that watermelon into what looked to be a dodecahedron. I find my enjoyment where I can.

Edited December 4, 2018 by AhFillAck
I'm dumb.

[FozzyBear]

5 hours ago, druzy said:

Please tell me Cate doesn't own all of those horses they showed in the opening of her second segment. 

So I’ve been thinking a lot about Cait and her petting zoo (what? I’m in the middle of finals. It’s either obsessed about reality TV or think about all the papers I have to write. Or, god forbid, focus on work) and what’s going on with our own little codependent hot mess attack. I think most people are spot on that the animals are a bid to fill the void that she thought would be filled by her and Tyler getting married and having another baby. Didn’t work because; 1) nothing is ever going to fill the void of giving up Carley. It’s not that way for everyone, but it is for Cait. It’s never really going to be ok. I think she needs to lean into that pain and work with a really good trauma therapist to learn to manage it. And 2) she doesn’t find being a SAHM and housewife fulfilling. That one is at least an easier fix. Lots of really good parents don’t want to be a SAHM or a SAHD. It’s ok. Just admit you love your kid, but you don’t really want to do the traditional mom thing and get on with finding a career.

But Cait’s not going to deal with either of these things anytime soon so we’re at “MTV Money Bought a Zoo!” That brings me to point 3) Cait would have been so much better signing up for ridding lessons instead of buying a horse. Not only would it save her thousands of dollars to put toward her next denial project (I vote for soap making) but I honestly think ridding lessons would have been really good for her. It would have given her a little bit of a schedule to keep and some reasonable, attainable goals to meet. I think this type of thing might be good for Cait. She has the money (I think. They seem to spend a ton so maybe not) so enroll in some adult education and learn basic coding or sewing or welding or something. Maybe after a few classes she’ll be ready to look at some real goals, like enrolling in a trade program or learing about money management. Anything to give that girl something to think about other then how shitty her life has been.

Edited December 4, 2018 by FozzyBear

[bounnatalie]

Wow Tyler is angry.

He is over this marriage.  When he was speaking with Butch, saying how mad he was that he's only been with two women? 

Why are they waiting to separate? I think it's because it's going to be the long game. If he moves somewhere temporary, he'll have to move back in. Once their house is ready, He can stay as long as he wants by himself without a forced move.

[ginger90]

Have only seen a clip of the leg shaving , and Bentley returning home.

The leg shaving was just ridiculous to put on television.

When Bentley was brought home, he was dropped off at the end of the driveway. Did they pull away and just assume he was met by an adult? Maci didn’t even bother to get up, at least Tyler kept looking out to make sure he was ok coming up the driveway. Personally, I’ve never dropped a child off like that, and on the other end I would at minimum make eye contact with the person bringing the child back. I didn’t have sound, so no idea what they all said. 🤣 (I don’t even know if this part was this week’s episode, how sad is that?)

Edited December 4, 2018 by ginger90

[Mr. Miner]

Who is this Cheyenne and Bristol y'all keep talking about?

[Brooklynista]

15 minutes ago, Mr. Minor said:

Who is this Cheyenne and Bristol y'all keep talking about?

Exactly.

I was super annoyed at Cate telling Butch he shouldn't shave. Bitch! You are a sloppy ass mess who has yet to put together a single look at was decent. Girl hush.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Brooklynista

[ghoulina]

10 hours ago, Chris Knight said:

Amber Baltierra's daughter looks very angry. 

I see a very bad future for that kid. Sadly, history often repeats itself; and those kids were living with both their addict mother and addict grandfather at the same time. 

 

10 hours ago, druzy said:

Andrew reading to baby James was hilarious! 

I thought that was such a pretentious moment. He couldn't hang out with Gary in the kitchen? No he had to prove how sophisticated and intelligent he is by reading The New Yorker to his infant son.

Sorry, that dude is totally BEC to me.

8 hours ago, Stusan said:

Oh, @ghoulina, you had me thinking, "She pees herself? Is Maci really that funny that she makes people pee?"

Then the realization hit. Then I almost peed from laughing at MYSELF. (Which doesn't take much after giving birth to two kids.)

Lol, I guess I phrased that wrong. I meant that's when I use the bathroom! She's so boring; I know I won't miss anything.

Although, in all fairness, I have peed myself many times. I'm a mom of 3. 

[suzeecat]

48 minutes ago, Mr. Minor said:

Who is this Cheyenne and Bristol y'all keep talking about?

Don't know and don't care.

[ghertigirl]

Quote

How old is Leah, 9? I was a pretty hairy kid but still waited until I was 13 to beg to be allowed to shave my legs.

Yes! This. I was the last kid in my class to be able to shave my legs and I always tell my mom that her absolute refusal to allow me to do so was traumatizing and one of the only things I resent her for as an adult still because I was made fun of so much for my hairy persian legs. Having said that, even I was like, “Wait, isn’t she only about 9? Isn’t that kind of too young?”

[Mr. Miner]

1 minute ago, ghertigirl said:

“Wait, isn’t she only about 9? Isn’t that kind of too young?”

Not only that, since our show has become so lame. Let's all sit down and decide to televise Leah's first time shaving her legs...Why?

[teapot]

5 minutes ago, ghertigirl said:

Yes! This. I was the last kid in my class to be able to shave my legs and I always tell my mom that her absolute refusal to allow me to do so was traumatizing and one of the only things I resent her for as an adult still because I was made fun of so much for my hairy persian legs. Having said that, even I was like, “Wait, isn’t she only about 9? Isn’t that kind of too young?”

My mom was of the opinion that if I shaved my legs with a razor it would grow back very dark and thick (hi, I'm Greek & Italian, that would've happened anyways.)  so I made do with an electric razor for, like, my whole life, until I was in my late teens!

The first day I shaved with a razor it was summer & i was wearing shorts & I kept telling all my friends to "feel my legs!  OMG I WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH MYSELF!!!!"

[SuzWhat]

This show is so much more enjoyable when you fast forward through most of the scenes, ya'll. 

[druzy]

9 hours ago, Chellichik said:

I can't be the only one who caught that tacky naked picture of Cheyenne's sister at the baby shower, am I?  

Not until you mentioned it:

[Linny]

It's excruciating for me to watch Bristol and Dakota. All these hurt feelings and confusion on both sides could be easily solved if they'd just TALK to each other. Bristol is so convinced that Dakota doesn't care about Tripp, when really Dakota is just timid about how to approach a relationship with a kid that's not technically his. They need to get it together and learn how to actually communicate effectively instead of making assumptions and talking past each other.

Still don't really care about Cheyenne, but she and Corey are cute together and are doing remarkably well co-parenting. I think she should relax about sorting out her feelings for Corey and be content with the peace she has now. She has a beautiful daughter and a supportive man to help raise her, everything else can be figured out in time.

Whatever faults Maci has, you can't deny that she's bringing up a good young man. Bentley seems sweet and responsible and completely up to the task of being a good older brother for all his siblings. 

I'm a little concerned about Leah, to be honest. She's kind of young to be pulling back from her parents and worrying over things like hairy legs. She is close to puberty age and exerting independence isn't a bad thing in itself, but I have to wonder if her exposure on the show is making her act older than her age. It's a bizarre reality she's in, where articles about her parents appear on tabloid websites and magazine covers and the whole world can witness her learning how to shave.

There's really no wonder why Catelynn refuses to watch Teen Mom. We're seeing the slow dissolution of her marriage happen in almost real time, and that's got to be hard for her to accept. I almost feel sorry for her, except for the fact that she allowed things to get to this point by ignoring her family in favor of therapy horses and rehab facilities. For nearly half her life Cate's viewed Tyler as a sure thing, and now she's seeing the harsh truth that he's not. Years of history and two kids isn't enough to preserve a marriage. She can no longer afford to be complacent that the ring on her finger is a done deal to happiness. It's time for her to put in some actual WORK and act like this relationship means something to her.

[druzy]

47 minutes ago, ghertigirl said:

Yes! This. I was the last kid in my class to be able to shave my legs and I always tell my mom that her absolute refusal to allow me to do so was traumatizing and one of the only things I resent her for as an adult still because I was made fun of so much for my hairy persian legs. Having said that, even I was like, “Wait, isn’t she only about 9? Isn’t that kind of too young?”

Same. Two of the older girls on my block rang my doorbell one day and when I answered they sang a song (accompanied by a dance) telling me to shave. My heart sank. Although it was a humiliating experience, I am thankful that moment wasn't captured on film and is just embedded in my memory.

[teapot]

5 minutes ago, druzy said:

Same. Two of the older girls on my block rang my doorbell one day and when I answered they sang a song (accompanied by a dance) telling me to shave. My heart sank. Although it was a humiliating experience, I am thankful that moment wasn't captured on film and is just embedded in my memory.

that is fucking horrible.  I hope that all of those tween/teen bullies have regret in their heart for cruelty like that

[pollybygolly]

It's sad that in one breath Amber is talking about Leah being self conscious about her body and thinking she's overweight and needs to diet, and in the next, she's exposing her on national TV wearing just a swimsuit and doing things that should be done in private, like shaving (With no audience!).

[FlowerofCarnage]

12 hours ago, Chris Knight said:

Enough with the flashbacks  ! They are really reaching tonight...

At the Baltierra family dinner, we were treated to all of them shoveling food in, appetizing.

Amber Baltierra's daughter looks very angry. 

Amber herself needs a chin.

Kim is practically clicking her heels together over this separation. 

Isn't everyone sober when they are 9 ?

I'd be angry too if my name was Lexis! Lol

[eskimo]

1 hour ago, Linny said:

Still don't really care about Cheyenne, but she and Corey are cute together and are doing remarkably well co-parenting. I think she should relax about sorting out her feelings for Corey and be content with the peace she has now. She has a beautiful daughter and a supportive man to help raise her, everything else can be figured out in time.

Agreed.  It'd be nice for Cory and Cheyenne to be together eventually, but they both have some growing up to do first.  If they try it now and it doesn't work out it could mess up their parenting relationship.  They both said that they think part of the reason it works so well is because they don't have any past baggage to wade through.  Cheyenne just wants a relationship, ready or not (she's not), and Cory seems like the type who is more excited by the pursuit.  You just cannot force these things.