S01.E09: As Long As It Takes

[doodlebug]

The recipient of Max's sister's heart arrives at New Amsterdam just as Max convinces Sharpe to take a risk on his course of treatment; Frome works to help a trans patient; Bloom grapples with a difficult conversation.

[doodlebug]

From here on out, it appears this show is going to be a total fantasy version of medicine, nothing in this episode made any logical sense, especially the medicine.

First, Max' sister's heart was donated to a young woman more than 30 years ago who was dying of heart disease.  Not only does this young woman's family find out the name of the donor immediately, she herself, only 1 WEEK after being near death and receiving a heart transplant, is not only out of the hospital, but attends Max' sister's funeral and then encounters Max and teaches him how to skip stones over the lake afterwards.  That was one amazing heart she got!!!!!!  I don't think I have to tell anyone that the hospitalization after a heart transplant 30 years ago, even an exceedingly successful one, is measured in weeks, not days and that a transplant patient is not only not going to be well enough to leave the hospital in a week, but she surely isn't going to be attending public events like funerals nor is she going to be well enough to heave stones into a lake right afterwards.  She'd also be wearing a surgical mask to prevent infection.  I actually have a colleague who has received a heart transplant, it has been more than 10 years and she is doing well.  She still wears a mask in public due to the risk of infection caused by her anti-rejection meds. 

As far as Max seemingly not recalling having attended his sister's funeral and actually believing his parents wouldn't let him attend while transplant girl has to tell him he was, in fact, there but somehow doesn't remember; well, maybe that explains why he is so hell-bent on avoiding the treatment that is known to work for his cancer and actively pursuing treatment that is not only unproven, but seems to NOT work in a significant number of patients.  He is clearly not thinking straight.  After seeing the oncologist speak with the a**hole jerk who is seemingly the oncologist with the magical treatment that has no side effects whatsoever; I am more confused than ever as to why a sentient human being, not even a doctor, who apparently has an early stage cancer which is known to be curable by other, more rigorous therapy; would want to take a chance like that.  Max keeps going on and on about how he has so many things he wants to do; well, what about next year?  And in 5 years?  How about 10?  Why would an otherwise young and healthy individual, one with traditional medical training no less, opt for a treatment that might be easier to deal with in the immediate future, but is much more likely to leave him DEAD in the not so distant future?  That's why people like Max aren't enrolled in clinical trials, why it is actually unethical to enroll them in trials; because the risk of dying trumps everything else.  He could do the new treatment in addition to radiation, perhaps instead of chemo; but no ethical practitioner is going to let him do it without a proven backup treatment.  Amongst other things, it makes Max, and his idiot wife, appear to have a death wish.  Unless he's suicidal, there is no logical reason for him to refuse the proven therapy.  Obviously, the a**hole oncologist is there to be a love interest for Max' pretty oncologist because we don't have enough TV shows and movies where perfectly nice women are somehow enamored of men who behave like arrogant jerks.

Organ transplant donors and recipients are NEVER given each other's names initially.  Sometimes, someone will hear about an accident that killed someone the same age and sex as their donor and make a guess; but UNOS and its members do not release the names of anonymous donors or recipients until at least  a year has passed to give everyone time to mourn and adjust and for the outcome of the transplant to be known.  There is no way the girl's parents were told the donor's name in time for them to attend her funeral and, had they guessed, they would've been actively discouraged from attending to give Luna's family time to mourn her.  Appearing uninvited and apparently unknown to Max' parents, who seemingly never knew, at Luna's funeral was a horrible thing to do to them.  After a year, names are exchanged as well as information, only if both parties agree; seemingly Max's parents didn't want contact from the recipient family and therefore, they should've never known Luna's name.  I'm a member of a donor family; my sister and brother in law donated organs after my 5 year old nephew's accidental death many years ago; I take this stuff personally.  BTW, my sister and her husband elected to receive a summary of which organs were transplanted with a brief summary, like age and sex, of the recipient.  They didn't want names, didn't want to meet anyone, just wanted to think that all of them were doing well with their gift.

 

Shockingly enough, hospital chiefs of staff do not sit at the bedside of ICU patients even if their sister's heart is in her drawing blood work from a central line every 15 minutes or whatever the hell it was Max was doing.  The magical Tic Tac Toe machine showing the results of the testing like lotto numbers is also fictional-and stupid.  I cannot even begin to comment on them preventing another patient from receiving the brain dead person's heart in hopes the miracle might occur, nor how someone from UNOS would allow them to do it.

 

Why did Max collapse on the dock?  Did he get the vapors after spreading his sister's heart ashes (heart ashes that the patient would never have gotten back because her heart would've been sent in formalin, a known carcinogen, to pathology for assessment after the transplant)?  Maybe it was formalin toxicity.  TV shows love to show people randomly passing out due to their illness.  If Max' cancer is causing syncopal episodes, then it must be hemorrhaging to the point where he is anemic or have metastasized to his brain.  In other words, it's terminal and all the talk about therapy is moot anyway.  And, what was with his stupid wife?  They're in the middle of nowhere and she is screaming for someone to come and help?  Did she not bring her cell phone?  Is it not charged?  And, of course, next episode, instead of being taken to the nearest hospital, the local EMT's will more than happy to haul Max to New Amsterdam, bypassing the dozens of closer facilities on the way.  Not a spoiler, just reasonable speculation based on the way the show is being written.

Edited November 28, 2018 by doodlebug

[rubyred]

Ryan Eggold is better than this show. I think they are trying to distract from the nonsensical medicine by showcasing his talent. I see you show, tugging at my heartstrings by having Max listen to Luna's heart. I see you! Who's cutting onions?

I have zero sympathy for doctor characters who endanger the lives of others by refusing to admit their own issues/pathologies. See Bloom, Glassman (TGD) et al. And who also abuse their position to put underlings in impossible situations to save their ass. What would happen to that nurse if someone noticed he was covering for Bloom's fuckups at work?

Liked Helen's interaction with Dr. Panthoki. 

This new hairstyle for Max's wife ages her, and highlights her resemblance to The Pained Princess Charlene of Monaco. If the show is doubling down on his marriage so they can do a slow burn for him and Helen, fine. But at least work on the wife's character so she seems like an understandable angle to the triangle.

[doodlebug]

5 minutes ago, rubyred said:

Ryan Eggold is better than this show. I think they are trying to distract from the nonsensical medicine by showcasing his talent. I see you show, tugging at my heartstrings by having Max listen to Luna's heart. I see you! Who's cutting onions?

 

I watched that scene and immediately thought, 'General Hospital did it better'.  Back 20+ years ago, there was a poignant storyline where the parents of  a little girl who was brain dead after an accident donated her heart to her cousin who was dying of heart disease.  There was an amazing scene where BJ's father, Dr. Tony Jones, is in the ICU and bends down to place his ear on his niece's chest to hear his daughter's heart beating there.  It was incredible back then; this was a poor imitation of that story.

 

Quote

I have zero sympathy for doctor characters who endanger the lives of others by refusing to admit their own issues/pathologies. See Bloom, Glassman (TGD) et al. And who also abuse their position to put underlings in impossible situations to save their ass. What would happen to that nurse if someone noticed he was covering for Bloom's fuckups at work?

The male nurse knows she is taking Adderall like candy at work and keeps it in an improperly marked bottle to avoid detection.  Surely, he knows that is not appropriate.  Now he sees her making multiple significant mistakes at work, presumably under the influence of amphetamines being taken indiscriminately.  It is not only unethical and immoral for him not to report what he knows to the bosses (and the medical board); he would be fired on the spot and would also probably lose his nursing license should the truth come to light; that he covered for a colleague who was abusing a controlled substance.  I presume we get the rehab storyline next year.

Edited November 28, 2018 by doodlebug

[Good Queen Jane]

Not to mention St. Elsewhere, where David Morse had the same scene with the person who received his wife's heart.

And, please, Show, let's not have the nice café lady be just playing the older doctor ( I really should know names by now, but I don't) for the money.

[txhorns79]

Quote

After seeing the oncologist speak with the a**hole jerk who is seemingly the oncologist with the magical treatment that has no side effects whatsoever; I am more confused than ever as to why a sentient human being, not even a doctor, who apparently has an early stage cancer which is known to be curable by other, more rigorous therapy; would want to take a chance like that.  Max keeps going on and on about how he has so many things he wants to do; well, what about next year?  And in 5 years?  How about 10? 

This.  The only thing I can think is that Max is almost comically selfish.  He only cares about the present, and only cares about himself.  He should ponder his wife telling their child one day that daddy could be alive right now, but was unwilling to undergo a proven treatment regimen because he might be inconvenienced by the side effects. 

[LexieLily]

This might be a polarizing opinion and please believe me I mean no harm. But did anyone else get the feeling that Frome's trans patient wasn't even trans in the first place, or was going along with it only for the social media accolades and followers?

[Poohbear617]

I could not stand the trans teens Shay. I understand the the want and need to  undergo  the surgery but he had no reason other than utter immaturity and being a brat for his behavior. He had great parental love and support, a good therapist and acceptance. But I did not catch his exact age but I know they said too young to drive, so 14 or 15. EVEN when Dr. Frome was talking to him at the end he would not listen that there were physical/medical reason to postpone surgery for a year. His body is in the middle of puberty with a way to grow.  He just they a shit fit and proved he was too immature for this procedure. I wish Iggy Iwould have demanded a retraction and explained how he understands because he has been a LGBTQ member a hell of a lot longer and more than likely faced more discrimination and hatred than this kid has.

Edited November 28, 2018 by Poohbear617

[Lovecat]

@doodlebug, you articulated so nicely everything I was thinking.  All I could say was, "That's not how that works.  That's not how any of this works!"

[doodlebug]

26 minutes ago, LexieLily said:

This might be a polarizing opinion and please believe me I mean no harm. But did anyone else get the feeling that Frome's trans patient wasn't even trans in the first place, or was going along with it only for the social media accolades and followers?

I think, if nothing else, it showed that he was in no way ready to actually undergo surgery.  Aside from the physical implications (because, yes, there are reasons why the surgery should be delayed until certain developmental milestones are reached in order to get the best cosmetic result), a kid who is that obsessed with their presence on social media doesn't have the maturity to understand all the implications of undergoing the surgery.

I suspect the writers follow 'I am Jazz' on TLC.  Jazz is a transwoman teen who has gotten hormonal blockers to prevent her from developing as a male and the past couple seasons have revolved around her obsession with having 'bottom' surgery ASAP despite her parents' and doctors' objections.  They actually filmed her seeing multiple different specialists all over the country and trying to decide exactly which specific surgical procedure to have to give her 'America's Next Top Vagina' and seemed to be fixated on achieving a specific physical appearance that multiple surgeons told her was unrealistic.  They all also counseled her to wait a year or two before surgery and perhaps to stop the pubertal blockers because her genitals were tiny due to lack of hormones and the tissue from them would be used to form the new vagina.  She eventually found someone to do the surgery on her timetable despite the fact she wasn't 18.  Apparently one of her parents, probably her very indulgent mother, signed for it.  Anyway, I can see anyone who saw the show being concerned that at least part of the reason Jazz was pushing for the surgery to be done ASAP is because of the show and the notoriety it has brought her and because, if anything, she was far less emotionally mature than most teens her age.

[weathered1]

I have to confess that a vast majority of my medical knowledge comes strictly from watching television, yet even I sat there watching last night's episode and seeing so many wildly implausible things happening at all once took me right out of almost every scene. (I do think the actress playing the heart transplant patient did some good work, though, and she and Ryan Eggold really tried to eke out every bit of emotion in those scenes that they could.)

I was not a fan of Shay. At all. The temper tantrum and subsequent social media post(s) only served to immediately and fully prove Frome's point - it was imperative that Shay wait a year in order to develop more a maturity standpoint (amongst other things). I also did have the thought already mentioned that perhaps Shay was more intent on getting follows and likes than getting that surgery, but ultimately, I think both things were true: Shay wanted the surgery but the utter dependence on validation from strangers on the internet was proof positive that more mental and emotional growth needed to happen before any medical procedures could be undertaken. (This is not to discount the support that was garnered from those people online because that was undoubtedly incredibly important.)

I liked the scenes with the cafeteria worker and Kapoor, and I think we all knew what was going to happen once she relayed the situation with her beloved dog. The rapport the characters are developing is nice to see. 

I absolutely loathe the storyline with Blum's pill-popping and the nurse knowing about it and letting it continue, even as her mental processes are becoming increasingly altered leading to bad - even dangerous/potentially deadly - decisions and mistakes. For lack of a better way to put it, it makes me ragey.

I was not a fan of seeing the wife again. At all. And the ridiculousness of her yelling for help instead of picking up her cell phone was  . . .  ye gods. 

I didn't mind the addition of Sendhil Ramamurthy, though the character walked a fine line between charming and smarmy at a few different points. I get the feeling that him entering the mix is another attempt to further a slow burn between Max and Helen. 

As for Max, for such a knowledgeable, almost selfless man, he certainly does make some exceedingly moronic and deeply selfish choices. Others have delved into the nonsensical nature of his decisions re: his health and treatments, so I won't retread that particular ground, but it definitely makes it difficult for viewers to sympathize with someone who knows better and has so much to lose, yet persists in making the worst decisions possible at just about every turn. 

Finally, I fully agree that Ryan Eggold deserves better than this show. I'd actually go so far as to say that a good number of the actors in the main cast deserve better. I guess I keep watching in the hopes that the writing will somehow, someway eventually give them the kind of material that is commensurate with their talents.

[Sentient Meat]

The whole premise of the show is that it's a utopian vision of what medical care might be like.

The fact that people aren't dressed in futuristic garb and don't have pointy ears shouldn't detract from this.

America acts like universal health care is an absurd fantasy... yet all the developed world except for us uses this system.

Certain political interests try to scare you by pointing out long lines in Canada or Europe... yet somehow we are 31st in life expectancy while Canada is 12th.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

New Amsterdam shouldn't be fantasy in our country... but somehow it is.

[Kelda Feegle]

4 hours ago, doodlebug said:

  to give her 'America's Next Top Vagina'

Pretty sure you owe me a new keyboard!

Show noted Shay's feeling of pressure to have the surgery that his followers were expecting to have but I think could have included the repercussions, mostly guilt, of not using the go fund me money within a reasonable timeframe.

Bloom's addiction issues enrage me and I am hoping that now the nurse has really called her out on it the narrative will progress, preferably before she gets a patient killed for a last straw moment.

[Biggie B]

2 hours ago, weathered1 said:

Finally, I fully agree that Ryan Eggold deserves better than this show. I'd actually go so far as to say that a good number of the actors in the main cast deserve better. I guess I keep watching in the hopes that the writing will somehow, someway eventually give them the kind of material that is commensurate with their talents.

Indeed. I truly like the actors playing Dr. Helen and Iggy, as well as "Tom Keane" (we still call him Tom in this house!). So it's super frustrating to watch some of the ridiculous plot lines. I have absolutely checked out on Max's treatment. I simply don't even hear what he says to Dr. Helen and vice versa. It's too stupid. Between that and his ugly-haired ding dong of a wife, I can barely deal with his character, and that stinks because I like the actor.

What happens now with Vijay? He's mended his relationship with his son, and he seems to have a nice friendship with the coffee lady (and I don't think it will become a romance - that seems clear). His character seems extraneous now.

I agree with everyone who did not find Shay in any sympathetic. What a little brat. I was so angry for Iggy. Reading those hateful, untrue things online must have been painful. And to me, Shay didn't seem to understand the scope of what he did. He should be groveling at Iggy's feet, and should be a bit more cognizant of how completely supportive his parents are. I do seriously want Shay to have that surgery but right now, he is nowhere near ready in any way, and he needs to let Iggy help him work through that. I'm sure we won't ever see his character again, which is sort of too bad - I would like to see Shay deal with waiting for the surgery. Oh well.

I do NOT care about Dr. Bloom. I hope that male nurse reports her. She's awful and I hope Dr. Reynolds does NOT get sucked into her vortex.

I'm in the minority, I guess, but I like Dr. Helen's new love interest. Good for her - their baby will be very pretty!

[doodlebug]

1 hour ago, Sentient Meat said:

The whole premise of the show is that it's a utopian vision of what medical care might be like.

The fact that people aren't dressed in futuristic garb and don't have pointy ears shouldn't detract from this.

America acts like universal health care is an absurd fantasy... yet all the developed world except for us uses this system.

Certain political interests try to scare you by pointing out long lines in Canada or Europe... yet somehow we are 31st in life expectancy while Canada is 12th.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

New Amsterdam shouldn't be fantasy in our country... but somehow it is.

I haven't seen anything on New Amsterdam that is promoting universal health care.  If anything, the hospital provides elitist care.  Look at the heart transplant patient.  Had she not turned out to have Jack's sister's heart or had he not found out; she'd have never gotten on the transplant list, let alone had a doctor sitting at her side doing blood tests at intervals for hours on end, nor would the organ donation from a brain dead patient have been postponed so the heart could be saved for her.  I want to know what happened to the person who was ahead of her on the list and would've gotten the heart had Jack not pulled strings to favor her.

Same thing with Jack's cancer treatment.  He delays and drags his feet for weeks on end and then somehow gets an oral surgeon to do his dental work on a moment's notice.  He then gets placed into a clinical trial even though there is no way he should've met the criteria.  Once again, there maybe someone out there who has failed traditional therapy for whom the clinical trial would be a last ditch chance who will die instead because Jack, being too afraid to receive treatments he has undoubtedly recommended to many patients, called in some favors and got added in the place of a more appropriate candidate.

Nothing on this show even begins to resemble universal health care, nor should the stuff we see on New Amsterdam be anyone's fantasy.  If was is what medical care might be like, we should be glad it isn't.

The real New Amsterdam, AKA Bellevue, does in fact provide excellent care to patients from all walks of life, but this show isn't even a little bit similar to the actual hospital on which it is based.

Edited November 29, 2018 by doodlebug

[starri]

8 hours ago, doodlebug said:

I watched that scene and immediately thought, 'General Hospital did it better'.  Back 20+ years ago,

20+ years ago, GH did everything better.

I actually didn't hate the subplot, just because the actress playing the patient was appealing, and I bought her chemistry with Max as some kind of spiritual siblings.  I just thought it was cheap to give it a total happy ending.  I would have found him having to let Luna go a second time a lot more dramatically interesting.

While I was watching it, my husband turned to me and asked "Do you guys have a machine with a big red X at the hospital?"  And with a running counter, no less.

I thought about our shared ire at how ER handled Mark Greene's GBM (and more broadly the depiction of miracle cures) when I was on my way to work this morning.  I saw an ad for something promising improved survival length for GBM, with a standard photo of a happy family enjoying one of life's rewarding events.  I didn't have a chance to register the name of the treatment, because I really wanted to look up the prescriber information.

5 hours ago, Poohbear617 said:

But I did not catch his exact age but I know they said too young to drive, so 14 or 15

Driving age in New York is 17, and that's only if the kid has taken driver's ED.  That said, the parents said that Shay had started transitioning when he was 14 and at one point, Iggy said he'd only been on Lupron (that's the hormone blocker) for about 6 months, so maybe 15-ish?  I will say that, despite his parents wanting him to hit the brakes on surgical transitioning, they were pretty supportive.  

[catrice2]

I can't even.  All of you so adequately summed up everything that I can't deal with on this show. Bloom needs to go.  I do not like her and Reynolds together, but actually they are the two I like the least individually as well.  I fast forward through a lot so I don't know how Hero/Piper Perabo show ( I can't remember the name!) guy came to be, but I see zero romantic chemistry between the two...and I mean zero.  

The old odd looking wife is back as is the ridiculous cancer story with Max.  I am cynical because I really started to think she is setting him up to fleece him from his money...again fast forwarding and had to read here that it is for the care of a dog. 

If they took the focus off of Max this show might have a chance.  Every episode is so depressing and he is so manic. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

I think, if nothing else, it showed that he was in no way ready to actually undergo surgery.  Aside from the physical implications (because, yes, there are reasons why the surgery should be delayed until certain developmental milestones are reached in order to get the best cosmetic result), a kid who is that obsessed with their presence on social media doesn't have the maturity to understand all the implications of undergoing the surgery.

I would say a kid who responds to rejection by lashing out at the physician (did the kid even apologize for that?) on social media and saying things that could severely damage the physician's reputation, showed that he was way too immature to get the surgery. 

I rolled my eyes at the entire transplant storyline.  Not only was it unlikely that the woman would know who her donor was, but like doodlebug mentioned, there is no way that woman was out of bed, attending a funeral within a week of getting a heart transplant.  It's extremely traumatic surgery with a very long recovery period.

[Kelda Feegle]

6 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I rolled my eyes at the entire transplant storyline.  Not only was it unlikely that the woman would know who her donor was, but like doodlebug mentioned, there is no way that woman was out of bed, attending a funeral within a week of getting a heart transplant.  It's extremely traumatic surgery with a very long recovery period.

I was worried that the whole we have met and I showed you how to skip stones etc narrative was going to be one of those supernatural type things, ie she was channeling his sister's dreams or something.

[doodlebug]

26 minutes ago, Kelda Feegle said:

I was worried that the whole we have met and I showed you how to skip stones etc narrative was going to be one of those supernatural type things, ie she was channeling his sister's dreams or something.

I actually rewound and watched the scene again because I thought I had either misheard what she said or we were going to get some sort of supernatural twist, a haunted heart thing though I couldn’t see that kind of plot on this particular show.

[Sentient Meat]

3 hours ago, doodlebug said:

I haven't seen anything on New Amsterdam that is promoting universal health care.  If anything, the hospital provides elitist care.  Look at the heart transplant patient.  Had she not turned out to have Jack's sister's heart or had he not found out; she'd have never gotten on the transplant list, let alone had a doctor sitting at her side doing blood tests at intervals for hours on end, nor would the organ donation from a brain dead patient have been postponed so the heart could be saved for her.  I want to know what happened to the person who was ahead of her on the list and would've gotten the heart had Jack not pulled strings to favor her.

Same thing with Jack's cancer treatment.  He delays and drags his feet for weeks on end and then somehow gets an oral surgeon to do his dental work on a moment's notice.  He then gets placed into a clinical trial even though there is no way he should've met the criteria.  Once again, there maybe someone out there who has failed traditional therapy for whom the clinical trial would be a last ditch chance who will die instead because Jack, being too afraid to receive treatments he has undoubtedly recommended to many patients, called in some favors and got added in the place of a more appropriate candidate.

Nothing on this show even begins to resemble universal health care, nor should the stuff we see on New Amsterdam be anyone's fantasy.  If was is what medical care might be like, we should be glad it isn't.

The real New Amsterdam, AKA Bellevue, does in fact provide excellent care to patients from all walks of life, but this show isn't even a little bit similar to the actual hospital on which it is based.

Maybe not full on socialized medicine... but the universal healthcare lite that corporate Dems have been promoting for the last decade.

Most of the medical shows are addressing this issue in a lowkey manner... subtly lobbing critiques at overpriced pharmaceutical companies, condemning practices like overbilling and running unnecessary tests to pad bills.

Would a hospital in real life fire an entire department for their desire to make profit?

I'll have to read more about Bellevue... sounds like that would have made a better story.

[Dowel Jones]

I would like to add one small item.  About 2:30 into the show, the scene has the doctors walking into a floor from the stairway.  Very clearly marked on the inside of the door was a sign that said "Re-entry to this floor not possible."  Which means that the door couldn't be opened from the stairwell.

[alexvillage]

The whole transplant story was so full of holes, I will not repeat what others explained so well. But I have a question: is it true that a heart transplant recipient will certainly need a new transplant after some years? I heard this before (but I don't remember if it was another TV drama or a real life thing) so why wouldn't the doctors immediately suspect that the transplanted heart had lived its course?

 

I find the whole "your sister heart gave me the love of my life", "Luna is here with me" too sugary and it makes me feel like throwing up. Worse: a doctor laying his head on a patient's chest is a terrible idea. There is no ethical awareness in that place. None

 

Peeve: if you are going to spread the ashes somewhere - apparently shortly after the cremation of the heart (even if we ignore that it would be not possible s already explained) - do you really take the time to get a little cutesy jar? That's TV silliness. Why should someone take the time to choose a jar that will be immediately useless?

Max collapses, the wife starts screaming to no one. Cell phone? At least check for signal? Too over the top, all the screaming.

 

The trans story started out well. The situation was believable. The implications of the teen not having what he wanted could have been handled better. Instead, they made him a unlikeable asshole, vindictive. For someone who never smiled before starting transition, it would be more believable if they had shown how the conflict could get him into a depressive state. The whole twitter popularity is also a fantasy. Things are pretty hard for transgender people, a teenager being so open online after only a few months is dangerous even.  And only one interview with parents? The process is much more extensive than that.

[mojito]

Quote

Finally, I fully agree that Ryan Eggold deserves better than this show.

Think of all the good actors who don't even get a show at all. Some of them might not think Eggold deserves this much. 

I've been shedding shows left and right (Manifest, This Is Us, and ones I can't even remember anymore), and this one is creeping onto the chopping block Good medicine or not, it's too contrived to be even halfway believable. Uh, Doctor, I believe you can hear the patient's heart better using a stethoscope. I believe you have access to one of those.

[txhorns79]

Quote

I find the whole "your sister heart gave me the love of my life", "Luna is here with me" too sugary and it makes me feel like throwing up. Worse: a doctor laying his head on a patient's chest is a terrible idea. There is no ethical awareness in that place. None

Max certainly gives a good lesson on why a doctor should not become personally invested in a patient having a specific health outcome.  We saw this in the episode with the Rabbi where Max downplayed the dangers of a very risky surgery because Max was having feels about his own cancer.  We saw it again during this episode where Max downplayed the difficulty of the woman's treatment because he was more interested in keeping his sister's heart beating than what was in the patient's best interest.  

[nemesis]

6 hours ago, alexvillage said:

 only one interview with parents? The process is much more extensive than that.

It bothered me so much!  A short discussion with the parents and then the kid's therapist overrules them?  About a surgery??  First, I didn't think the parents could be overruled on this.   I've seen so many shows where just to get a lifesaving surgery that the parents disagree with takes some kind of court order.  My brother says maybe in California a therapist can do so.  The parents were supportive and have known their own child his whole life, how is the opinion of someone who knows him from fifty minute long sessions over a measly six month period in a place to disregard their wishes and side with a clearly immature teenager?  He's so very immature that even at the end there I didn't have the impression that he truly understood and regretted what he'd done to Iggy. He should have at least apologized and promised to set things straight with his Twitter followers (as much as he could, now it's apparently the first thing out there when his name is Googled so that's never really going to go away).

[Dowel Jones]

8 hours ago, alexvillage said:

Why should someone take the time to choose a jar that will be immediately useless?

But now he can put it on his mantle and watch the Super Bowl every year.

[doodlebug]

8 hours ago, alexvillage said:

The whole transplant story was so full of holes, I will not repeat what others explained so well. But I have a question: is it true that a heart transplant recipient will certainly need a new transplant after some years? I heard this before (but I don't remember if it was another TV drama or a real life thing) so why wouldn't the doctors immediately suspect that the transplanted heart had lived its course?

Not necessarily, but only about 75% of transplanted hearts are still viable at 5 years.  That particular transplant recipient was still going after several decades.  Most transplants don't last that long because the recipients are older, they have underlying diseases like diabetes or because the anti-rejection drugs put them at risk for developing cancer.  Anytime a transplant patient presents with a serious illness, failure of the transplanted organ has to be a possible cause.

4 minutes ago, Dowel Jones said:

But now he can put it on his mantle and watch the Super Bowl every year.

Because TV?  In real life, you receive a cardboard box with a liner or a very inexpensive plastic container.

[alexvillage]

23 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

Because TV?  In real life, you receive a cardboard box with a liner or a very inexpensive plastic container.

My husband's ashes came on a ziplock bag inside of a cardboard box. 

Edited November 29, 2018 by alexvillage

[eel2178]

20 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I rolled my eyes at the entire transplant storyline.  Not only was it unlikely that the woman would know who her donor was, but like doodlebug mentioned, there is no way that woman was out of bed, attending a funeral within a week of getting a heart transplant.  It's extremely traumatic surgery with a very long recovery period.

There is no way someone who died from septicemia would be a viable organ donor, so the whole story line was moot. If they wanted to go down this road, they should have given Luna a different cause of death to begin with.

Edited November 29, 2018 by eel2178

[Kelda Feegle]

On 29/11/2018 at 1:46 PM, catrice2 said:

  I fast forward through a lot so I don't know how Hero/Piper Perabo show ( I can't remember the name!) guy came to be, but I see zero romantic chemistry between the two...and I mean zero.  

Covert Affairs?

[Danielg342]

"E"...for "Exhausting".

Man...there's just so much emotion...so much tugging at heartstrings...so many heavy moments...so many scenes meant to be "powerful"...so overwhelming.

So...exhausting.

I really don't think there's any other word for this show anymore. It makes me long for the days of Doctor House who would come around making some snarky comment or utter some brutal truth that helped break up all this heaviness and add much needed levity.

Not to mention put in their place all these overwrought basketcases of doctors.

"Dr. Bloom...you're addicted to painkillers. Stop kidding yourself. C'mon...if anyone would know it's me."

It would also give Ryan Eggold someone to play off of. Anyone who remembers Eggold from The Blacklist will remember that his character, Tom Keen, had some pretty intense clashes with James Spader's Raymond "Red" Reddington. Yeah, I know...even a rock can have chemistry with Spader, but Eggold had some magic behind it.

It's interesting...one of the discussions here in this thread is about Eggold and how he deserves a better character and I'm instantly thinking of Keen. Tom Keen...that mysterious spy who's gift is being able to take on any persona just so he can accomplish whatever goal his mission required.

He was an intriguing character...someone The Blacklist completely dropped the ball on. Kind of like the rest of the series.

Anyway...enough of that diversion. I'm mostly in this for Eggold because I loved him as Tom Keen and I know that Eggold oozed charisma. It's a charisma that helped sell this series at first, but, as it wears on, it really does appear that Eggold desperately needs someone to play off of, because he can't carry this show on his own.

...and that's the centre of the issue. As much as I might like comic relief, the truth is there's just no conflict. At least in House, M.D. the show conflicted the hope with the bitter reality of the wider medical world, a bitter reality so often dispensed- willingly or unwillingly- by Dr. Gregory House.

This series?

New Amsterdam  is so bent on hope that the "conflict" are abstract things that are hard to conceptualize and are hardly developed, if at all. The conflicts just don't feel real, so there's really nothing for the actors to truly bite their teeth into.

Like the heart transplant- the only one who provided any shade was a stock character whose only lines were "bureaucracy". Did anyone have any doubt that Max Goodwin wasn't going to be able to pass the test he needed to pass in order to get the transplant on the operating table? When there's no fight, does winning the battle really matter?

Even the episode's best moment- Dr. Iggy trying to convince Shay to wait a year to get breasts- the conflict simply involved Iggy talking down Shay's parents and then Shay himself, but only after weathering a minor Twitter storm that, in real life, would have much bigger consequences.

The writers were so bent on reassurance that they didn't even bother developing the issues with Shay and finding a way for Iggy to actually navigate through them, and, as a result, the payoff missed its mark.

That's really this show's problem- it's really afraid to draw the battle lines and really spark some wars, and write things where you really don't know where the battles will go.

Because, as I said before- when there is no fight, does winning the battle really matter?

[bros402]

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH


This show.

I want to strangle this show.

So, "chemo" is just a single drug now? That is how they are treating it. All chemo is not the same. There are a bunch of different drugs that are chemotherapy agents. Immunotherapy does not have no severe side effects. Immunotherapy can KILL YOU. It is not a magic cancer bullet!

On Shay, I am surprised Iggy didn't tell him how immature he was attacking his reputation (potentially damaging it irreparably) - or at LEAST make Shay apologize. Iggy should have told Shay "Sorry, but I can't see you anymore, you clearly do not trust me"

[bros402]

Oh, and I forget - that coffee shop lady, she is scamming the neurologist, right? Just so we are all on the same page.

But, since this show is everything is perfect and nice, it's going to end up she needed it to sponsor an international orphanage that needed $2000 or else it would have to close its doors

[Johnny Dollar]

They really missed an opportunity for a “Heart in a Jar” spin-off. You’d think NBC would realize the powerful potential for creamains carrying a show for at least a couple of years. 

I want the name of the coffee lady’s vet. I paid $4,500 to fix my dog’s torn knee ligaments. That $2,000 price for cancer surgery must have come from a groupon. 

Edited December 1, 2018 by Johnny Dollar

[Granny58]

I really have to get this off my chest.  I like this show, I like the characters.  I especially like the psychologist and the Indian neurologist.  I CAN NOT STAND all the head bobbing and neck spasming that Eggold does even though I do like his character.  Please stop.  It is as distracting as Clooney was doing it in ER . I hope somebody on the show reads these boards and takes note.  

[Johnny Dollar]

Sorry Granny, but he acted that way in The Blacklist too. I agree that it’s annoying but I like him anyway. 

[LittleIggy]

I was glad to see the hottie from “Reverie” (a show I really liked). Glad he seems destined to be Helen’s donor so he’ll be there for awhile. I don’t really have much to add otherwise to the great posts about this show’s eff ups. Dr Kapoor and the coffee shop lady storyline is a bright spot. I wish Dr. Bloom would choke on her pills.

[IDreamofJoaquin]

On 11/29/2018 at 1:02 PM, Dowel Jones said:

But now he can put it on his mantle and watch the Super Bowl every year.

AHAHAHAHHA!!!!  Nice one.

 

This show needs to slow the fuck down.  They should not have him meeting his sister's heart until Season 3 let alone episode 9 in Season 1.  I say it every episode "how will the some up with more ridiculous story lines at this pace".  

I also found the writing in this episode incredibly stupid.  When Helen tells Max about the heart patient she says "The donor is Luna Goodwin. Your sister".  Did he forget his sister's name? (I mean he forgot her funeral so maybe)  We as viewers have not forgotten her name nor his last name. We can put two and two together, writers, no need to dumb it down for us. 

And then if the coffee shop lady is NOT scamming doctor Vijay then that is also poor writing.  He mentions he has money........then she needs money.   *sticks lips out and then wiggles pointer finger back and forth on them while making cartoony sounds*

I think we should band together and remember we need to keep track of this particular story line to see if it goes anywhere and if it doesn't remember how the writers think we are idiots.  Not only do they try and serve us with nonsense medical drama but they feed us this shit.

The Shay story line struck a personal nerve.  I work with at-risk youth.  The nonprofit I work for is extremely progressive and we welcome everyone and really try and follow trauma informed care.  That being said I am an older person who sometimes gets a little irritated with the shit some of the youth get away with.  Many of these kids are addicted to electronics/social media/drama and I don't even want to know what they probably say about me and my coworkers online.  Most of the kids we work with really need us but then there are the kids who are just brats.  We work with the families if they let us and the parents in this episode reminded me of some of the parents that are willing to work with us.  Really understanding but their kids are just stinkers. I had no sympathy for Shay's bullshit.  One a side note we have an employee who identifies with certain pronouns and in a company e-mail this person was being praised with an award and they were referred to with the wrong pronouns.  I totally understand how hurtful that is but during a company training this person called out the administrative person who made the mistake.  Like I said I'm older and I have a different vision of  people 15-20 years younger than me even though I really try and see it from their perspective. I thought calling this person out in front of 100 employees was in really poor taste.  But being the organization we work for, it was an okay setting to do this in.  Any other corporation probably would have reprimanded the person. 

I was excited to see Sendhil Ramamurthy.  I always thought he was so handsome in 'Heroes' and 'The Office'.

[Granny58]

On 12/4/2018 at 8:01 AM, Johnny Dollar said:

Sorry Granny, but he acted that way in The Blacklist too. I agree that it’s annoying but I like him anyway. 

I do like him too.  But if you knew somebody who bobbed like that in real life you would assume they had some sort of neuro problem.  

[Flyin.Bryan]

Even the non-medical stuff is unbelievable. There is no way a tween/teen is super popular on TWITTER. Instagram maybe, but kids don't use Twitter.

[Johnny Dollar]

Granny, I’m more interested in how he gets the exact same length of stubble every single day. Another skill he brought over from The Blacklist. Or how he manages to be the head administrator of a major American hospital all while inserting himself into the care of every single patient that passes through the doors. I wouldn’t think that having your assistant track you down in the halls to sign a couple of pieces of paper would be enough. 

[TVForever]

On 11/28/2018 at 3:42 PM, Poohbear617 said:

I could not stand the trans teens Shay. I understand the the want and need to  undergo  the surgery but he had no reason other than utter immaturity and being a brat for his behavior. He had great parental love and support, a good therapist and acceptance. But I did not catch his exact age but I know they said too young to drive, so 14 or 15. EVEN when Dr. Frome was talking to him at the end he would not listen that there were physical/medical reason to postpone surgery for a year. His body is in the middle of puberty with a way to grow.  He just they a shit fit and proved he was too immature for this procedure. I wish Iggy Iwould have demanded a retraction and explained how he understands because he has been a LGBTQ member a hell of a lot longer and more than likely faced more discrimination and hatred than this kid has.

Perversely, I actually appreciated this storyline. It showed that teenagers can often be real sh*ts when they want to be, even those with an otherwise sympathetic story. Shay's parents didn't give him what he wanted, so he attempted to manipulate Iggy into doing it. When that didn't get his expected result, he threw a proper tantrum and manipulated his "followers" into bullying Iggy. I wish the show had focused also on how the parents and Iggy were affected by this kid's actions. And especially Iggy, for whom Shay's actions could potentially have had professional as well as personal consequences.

[Danielg342]

I think the real reason for Max's diagnosis was so that the show would have a "completed story" in case the series wasn't picked up for the season (lots of shows do this so that fans don't feel like they wasted their time with the series). I imagine Max would have been a goner if the series was cancelled, maybe making some inspirational speech right before he passes to keep everyone hopeful.

Now that it has been extended for a whole season, the chances of Max living are increased (we'll likely have to wait for the S1 finale for real drama on that front), and I have a feeling that Max's choice of treatment is a nod to that. Yeah, it may be unrealistic or not even a smart choice, but it beats forcing Ryan Eggold to shave his head and his beard. Real life, I think, got in the way.

[ProsperoFandango]

Why did the heart transplant recipient’s husband have Lunas ashes to give to Max. Wouldn’t his parents have had the ashes?

[bros402]

On 2/9/2019 at 10:16 PM, ProsperoFandango said:

Why did the heart transplant recipient’s husband have Lunas ashes to give to Max. Wouldn’t his parents have had the ashes?

It was the ashes of the donor heart

[Ceindreadh]

On 2/10/2019 at 3:16 AM, ProsperoFandango said:

Why did the heart transplant recipient’s husband have Lunas ashes to give to Max. Wouldn’t his parents have had the ashes?

On 2/11/2019 at 7:55 AM, bros402 said:

It was the ashes of the donor heart

When the husband was talking about the gift for Max, I thought his wife had had him pick up a bunch of stones so Max could go skimming them across the lake like she'd taught him.

And I can't believe that with all the comments about lack of medical ethics/realism that nobody has called out Dr. Sharpe for telling Max about Luna's heart in the first place.