S02.E08: Stories

[Trini]

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Dr. Shaun Murphy, Dr. Audrey Lim and Dr. Claire Brown's E.R. patient is forced to reveal a secret to her husband after their treatment caused a complication. Meanwhile, Dr. Neil Melendez, Dr. Morgan Reznick and Dr. Alex Park struggle with a patient whose parents don't believe in vaccinations.

Airdate: Nov. 19, 2018

[Lady Calypso]

Glassman is really getting on my last nerve. On the one hand, I can understand how difficult life after brain surgery can be. I imagine there's a lot that he's struggling with and his fear, and ego, is dictating his choices right now. Maybe his emotional outbursts are also side effects from the surgery. However, we can't even know because he's being a stubborn asshole with withholding information and getting pissy at the wrong people...not to mention the way he's manipulating Shaun into doing it his way. Technically, I think Shaun could go above his head and he could tell Glassman's oncologist, since his judgment could be impaired. 

Either way, I'm about two episodes past caring and it doesn't seem to be ending any time soon. 

I totally get the husband's anger over his wife's impulse control. Obviously it wasn't her fault and it's a legit medical condition, but I can see why he needs some time right now. But he shouldn't blame her for what she's done because it was medical and out of her control. I'm glad Claire called the husband out on his hypocrisy and trying to blame his wife for cheating. 

Good for Claire for standing her ground for the most part despite the ending, even against Andrews. It was interesting to see Andrews fight to keep Claire at the hospital, though. Like he said, Claire is a resident and still earning her place....but he was absolutely desperate for her to stay, so he cares more than he lets on. Threatening Melendez's possible promotion made it clear what Andrews wanted. And she didn't mean her apology at the end, but she was doing it to save Melendez's ass.

The Park/Reznick stuff was decent enough. The issue with Renick is that she feels like an entirely new character from last season, almost as if the show realized that they couldn't bring her on as a series regular and be the way she was last season. Except trying to give her humanity makes her look wishy washy. I still expect her at the end of some episodes to go back into Pale Version of Cutthroat Bitch. 

Finally...NO LEA! NO LEA! WOOHOO! Except we get Bitchy Glassman so....do we REALLY win in the end? 

[Annber03]

24 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Good for Claire for standing her ground for the most part despite the ending, even against Andrews. It was interesting to see Andrews fight to keep Claire at the hospital, though. Like he said, Claire is a resident and still earning her place....but he was absolutely desperate for her to stay, so he cares more than he lets on. Threatening Melendez's possible promotion made it clear what Andrews wanted. And she didn't mean her apology at the end, but she was doing it to save Melendez's ass.

Yeah, I like how she laid out the situation for exactly what it was. And it's to Melendez' credit that he heard her out when she called him out, and seemed to understand where she was coming from.

Given she and Shaun were working together this episode, I kinda wish they'd had a moment where they discussed her current situation, and he could've told her he'd miss her if she went. It would've made a nice little parallel to last season, when she said the same thing to him when he was considering quitting for a time. It was nice to see Claire and Shaun working together again this episode-they make a good team, and I like how they can have honest conversations with each other without being cruel or harsh. 

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The Park/Reznick stuff was decent enough. The issue with Renick is that she feels like an entirely new character from last season, almost as if the show realized that they couldn't bring her on as a series regular and be the way she was last season. Except trying to give her humanity makes her look wishy washy. I still expect her at the end of some episodes to go back into Pale Version of Cutthroat Bitch. 

I feel like she's slowly learning to adjust to working with these people, but yeah, I get where it's easy to be wary that she might slip back into old attitudes. I did like her making her stance on the vaccine debate clear, though, and I do think she and Park seem to kinda "get" each other. At first I thought she was going to chew him out for taking her story (which I would've fully supported her doing, 'cause seriously, the hell, Park?)...but I think she also realizes that she might've been moved to pull a similar stunt at one point in the past, so I feel that's why she decided to get all competitive with Park instead. They both can be kinda sneaky and underhanded, so it's an interesting way for them to bond. 

(I did kinda like the husband telling Park he didn't need any more parables.)

As for Glassman, I'm still sympathetic to his struggles in and of themselves, but I definitely agree that he needs to start letting people actually help him. I liked Shaun's tests at the end, and I hope, going forward, he does more to encourage Glassman to take care of himself.

[The Wild Sow]

ALBERT the Fish??

 

I take back what I said about getting several fish -- Albert would probably  cannibalize  them!

[Guest]

NO LEA! YES!

The nymphomania-via-tumor patient was a new one. I thought it was going to be your garden-variety sex addiction, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised they had to make it medical to fit in with the show. On one hand, harassment is always bad and I like that they gave Shaun the option to file a complaint after the kiss, but I was pleasantly surprised to see him taking it in stride and with some humor and correctly interpreting it as a sign of an underlying medical issue rather than something malicious. Plus, it was nice and kind of cute (obviously taking away the patient factor) to see someone genuinely attracted to Shaun to the point where they couldn't resist kissing him. That's right, I said it. Suck it Lea. Other than that, everything else about that story line was unintentionally hilarious. The husband really should've waited until his injuries had healed before confronting his wife about her affairs. Having him repeatedly storm out of the room on crutches was awkward to say the least. And since when does lack of impulse control translate into draining your bank accounts to donate to animal shelters? That was a really clunky attempt by the writers to salvage the character of the wife. "Sure, she may have had a half dozen affairs and bankrupted her husband, but the money went to a good cause! Instead of bankrolling her insatiable lust for dick, she was actually thinking of the shelter dogs!"

I couldn't care less about the crunchy granola family's drama, but for some reason Park became super sexy to me this ep. Not the take away I was supposed to get from this plot, I know. I felt bad for him because he was just trying to protect the health of the child and I'm guessing the unborn baby as well. I guess the lesson is that you shouldn't meddle in other people's opinions, even when other people's opinions are dangerously, lethally stupid. Whatever, I want to "jump Park," as Nympho Husband would say.

I liked Claire softening her approach towards Melendez after she realized the reality of the situation, while still standing by her actions. Honestly, at this point any interaction between them that doesn't work towards building/releasing sexual tension is a snooze fest for me because we know all roads lead to fucking. It just needs to happen so they can figure out what's next, because this professional footsie they're playing has already hurt Claire's residency and only makes Melendez look vindictive. 

Mercifully Glassman has significantly less screen time this week. Let's keep that trend going because he sucks and is a total lead balloon to plot momentum.

Edited November 20, 2018 by Guest

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

I didn't see that resolution of the conflict between Claire and Melendez coming and I really liked it. Claire stood her ground the whole time and has the upper hand post conflict. It was a neat maneuver by the show.

Glad there was no Lea. I never liked her.

The finale scenes between Shaun and Glassman is the first empathy I've had for it. It was the first time he fully acknowledged the gravity of his recovery - if you want to call it that.

I disagree with the poster that said Park and Reznick get each other. They started out arguing about how to approach the uncivilized parents. People who get each other would have been on the same page on how to address such an important issue. Park didn't stop her because Reznick from giving them the third degree because of hospital policy; he really believed their choice should be respected. I liked that he had a change of mind, but it took the story of a dead kid to do so. 

Edited November 20, 2018 by Deputy Deputy CoS

[Annber03]

22 minutes ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

I disagree with the poster that said Park and Reznick get each other. They started out arguing about how to approach the uncivilized parents. People who get each other would have been on the same page on how to address such an important issue. Park didn't stop her because Reznick from giving them the third degree because of hospital policy; he really believed their choice should be respected. I liked that he had a change of mind, but it took the story of a dead kid to do so. 

Maybe "get" wasn't quite the right word, but I was mainly just thinking in terms of the competitive back and forth they shared this episode, and the fact that they both have a tendency to be a little underhanded to try and get things done on the job. Yes, as you note, they did disagree at the start, but I think those similarities helped them connect more easily as the episode went on, and I think it explains why Morgan reacted as she did to Park stealing her story, and things of that sort. 

[statsgirl]

Is Andrews always this bad an administrator? (I've missed several episodes.)  He's told to make sure that Claire stays as she's looking for another residency because she's unhappy there, and he goes to Claire to tell her to apologize???  Making Claire responsible for getting Melendez to put her back on his team is precisely the wrong approach because if she was going to grovel she would have done it already;  he needs to talk to Melendez and get him to fix it.

Claire was the one who figured out the solution to the situation with Melendez (she really is too good for him), discovered that the woman really had a tumor, and talked her husband into reconsidering.  It was a good  Claire episode.

I liked Dr. Lim's teaching method, getting the residents to explain what they're thinking and then telling them to go out and do it.

Park and Reznick deserve each other. At least she had the sense to know that stories change people's minds. His theft of her personal story -- bad, son.

And now Glassman's memory issues:  I understand and empathize that he's worried about losing his memory.  I don't understand why his oncologist doesn't send him to a neuropsychologist for formal baseline testing instead of playing those games ("Are you sure you're not forgetting things?). Glassman needs testing and better testing than the Controlled Oral Word Association test because his anxiety will interfere with that (he needs the Weschler Memory Scale but that takes training to administer). If Blaize is concerned that he shouldn't be driving because his memory is so bad, get some hard data. (Why does Lisa Edelstein play bad doctors?)

It was sweet of Shaun to come up with the questions to see if Glassman remembers but really Shaun, not exactly helping. You wouldn't let Lea do surgery, would you?

[thuganomics85]

Hey, another episode that ends with things working out for Claire!  Maybe that cloud has finally dissipated!  Not only did the she end up talking the husband into realizing that his wife wasn't at fault for the affair, but she even comes out ahead with Melendez by apologizing, but making sure he knew that she wasn't sincere, but was doing it in order for him to save face, and he pretty much had to accept it since Andrews made it clear his promotion would be in jeopardy if she didn't stay.  Yay, Claire!  That said, while everything worked out this time, I do hope she is careful about going over her superior's head going forward, because if it happens again and backfires that go around, I don't see her having many more chances.

While I'm glad the husband came around at the end (even though I understand his initial reaction), I do wonder how badly their financial situation is going to be, since it was mentioned that the wife had gone through all of their savings and retirement plan, by giving it to charity.  Is there any way that can get their money back?  So many questions.

Unless I'm forgetting a past episode, I'm surprised this is the first time the show has tackled the whole "anti-vaccine" issues that still seems to be a thing.  Totally saw the twist that the wife was lying and the husband wasn't on board, but I'm glad Park/Will Yun Lee got some moments to shine.  And the ex was brought up again, so I imagine we'll be actually seeing her sometime down the line.

Yep, looks like Glassman is actually losing his memories.  This is no doubt going to cause more problems for him and Shaun.

Yeah, I really didn't miss Lea, and it's not like I even hate her, but she's just.... not needed, to be honest.

[bros402]

So with Shawn and Glassman - why are they saying he is losing his memory? He's having memory issues and cognitive dysfunction, he isn't suddenly going to develop amnesia.

And, you think a renowned neurosurgeon like Dr. Glassman would have gotten a neuropsychological evaluation before the surgery to have a baseline for after surgery/radiation/chemo!

[possibilities]

Claire was badass this episode. I like it.

[luvapickle]

To anyone having a problem with the way Glassman acts about his tumor, welcome to the world of a person who has something he depends on taken away from him. I know, I had two brothers who went through radiation, & a mother who went through heart surgery & developed problems. They are proud, stubborn, & it is how most people act afterwards. They also develop depression, some light, some severe. I like the way they are showing this through Glassman. He is not only a person who is going through this, but a surgeon going though this. As for his surgeon, there are probably parts that were just not written in/edited out, where she has had him go through the tests. But as was shown, she can only push so much. A doctor can only "prescribe", they cannot force.

[Palomar]

This episode did not show n the west coast because of MNF and the DWTS finale.  Wonder if it will be shown again or it is only an on demand situation.

[DearEvette]

16 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

The Park/Reznick stuff was decent enough. The issue with Renick is that she feels like an entirely new character from last season, almost as if the show realized that they couldn't bring her on as a series regular and be the way she was last season. Except trying to give her humanity makes her look wishy washy. I still expect her at the end of some episodes to go back into Pale Version of Cutthroat Bitch. 

Yeah.  I hated uber bitch Resnick but puppy-dog eyes Resnick is not a good look either.  When she was introduced I said way back when that I wish they had made her hard-eyed and competitive without the over-bitch factor  They just can't seem to find the happy medium with her in some ways. So right now she doesn't really seem to have a definitive personality.

 

14 hours ago, statsgirl said:

I liked Dr. Lim's teaching method, getting the residents to explain what they're thinking and then telling them to go out and do it.

Park and Reznick deserve each other. At least she had the sense to know that stories change people's minds. His theft of her personal story -- bad, son.

Yes.  I really like Lim's style.  Also I like she she kinda plays her with an air of understated comedy sometimes with a dash of IDGAF.   All of it still with a ton of competence.

 

14 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Is Andrews always this bad an administrator? (I've missed several episodes.)  He's told to make sure that Claire stays as she's looking for another residency because she's unhappy there, and he goes to Claire to tell her to apologize???  Making Claire responsible for getting Melendez to put her back on his team is precisely the wrong approach because if she was going to grovel she would have done it already;  he needs to talk to Melendez and get him to fix it.

Sometimes I feel like Andrews and the criminally underused Tamlyn Tomita are just deployed as Deus Ex machina types to drop into the episode an act as villain or savior as needed  by the plot.  Although I do wonder if Andrews is being set up as a bad administrator? He was much more sympathetic last season as a chief(?) when he was more hands on.  I wish we'd see his wife again, that was a nice humanizing storyline for him and he treated Shaun and Claire more collegially than Melendez did sometimes. 

I do think he went to Claire first because he thought she was the weaker link.  I love that she proved him dead wrong.  I am loving the more assertive Claire!

Also the chemistry between her and Melendez in that room was really sizzling.  I don't need a lot of romance subplot zinging around on a show like this, but in this case I;d make an exception because this would be a waste of chemistry.

I did not miss Lea. At. All.  I was hoping she wouldn't pop up in the end.  So happy she didn't.

The idea of having no filter and acting on every impulse would terrify me.  I am such a control freak.  One of the many reasons I'll never do drugs.  I am glad they made the case that it was every impulse and not just sexual ones.  I mean, I can see feeling sorry for those animals in those Sarah McLachlan commercials.  I'd throw some cash at 'em too, but can you imagine emptying your savings account because you can't impose any restrictions on yourself?  Yikes!

[rhys]

Why was Reznick surprised that Park, a former cop, has 3 handguns? Is she stupid?

[Babalooie]

17 hours ago, SnarkEnthusiast said:

Whatever, I want to "jump Park," as Nympho Husband would say.

I resemble that remark.   All I could think was, "NOOOOOO, please not a romance between Park and Reznick!"  Please, let that not happen.

[CarpeFelis]

Claire being more assertive with Andrews and Melendez is good, but I’m still really irritated at her overstepping with the rock climber girl a few episodes back. She seems to have a tendency to be self-righteous and stubborn - I sure wouldn’t want her to be my doctor!

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

35 minutes ago, CarpeFelis said:

Claire being more assertive with Andrews and Melendez is good, but I’m still really irritated at her overstepping with the rock climber girl a few episodes back. She seems to have a tendency to be self-righteous and stubborn - I sure wouldn’t want her to be my doctor!

Well, she saved the girl's life and the life of the woman whom she convinced to have that radical surgery. That case that she was punished for.

I just like she is allowed flaws but is ultimately very good at her job. When she takes unconventional routes, she gets pinged for them even if they payoff. How many of the regulars on the show suffer consequences? 

[statsgirl]

2 hours ago, rhys said:

Why was Reznick surprised that Park, a former cop, has 3 handguns? Is she stupid?

I think she was impressed. It looked like the set-up of a beautiful friendship to me.

16 hours ago, bros402 said:

So with Shawn and Glassman - why are they saying he is losing his memory? He's having memory issues and cognitive dysfunction, he isn't suddenly going to develop amnesia.

And, you think a renowned neurosurgeon like Dr. Glassman would have gotten a neuropsychological evaluation before the surgery to have a baseline for after surgery/radiation/chemo!

Ugh, I know. Not remembering the name of Shaun's brother is indicative of being in his sixties, not amnesia.

I get that Glassman is worried about his cognitive functioning but he needs to look at it like a scientist, not a character who is ignorant of medicine and brain functions.

[tennisgurl]

I feel for Glassman, and I like his scenes a lot more when he is with other characters, and not in his own, bitter plot land. He is at least realizing that this recovery is going to be tough, and he needs to actually do stuff, and not just complain and act bitter towards every person he talks to. 

The cases were both interesting, both basically about trust and how making choices affect the people in your life. I am kind of surprised this is the first time we`ve seen anti-vaccination people, and of course its the dream team of "ugggg people" that is Park and Reznick to deal with them! I kind of love Park stealing Reznicks story to help his point, its such classic Park. Glad that the poor kid got vaccinations at least, and while you cant force someone to do something to their own kid, you can certainly tell them what absolute idiots they're being, to the point of child endangerment. I think this could be the beginning of a beautiful friendship!

I didnt see the medical ending for the woman's lack of impulse control, and while I understood her husband needing to take some time to get his mind around all of this, I am glad he apparently came around. I mean, shit, I would have adopted an entire army of cats and dogs if I had no impulse control! And I loved the talk Claire had with him, about how even with no impulse control, she never even thought to leave him. 

Good episode for Claire in general. I love when she and Shaun team up, and I loved that he had her back, and that she was quick to remind Shaun that, no, people arent allowed to just kiss him out of nowhere, especially in a work environment. Andrews seems to have really gone to bat for her, and is really fighting to keep her interest. I mean, even beyond the bad optics of two people of "diverse backgrounds" leaving in a short period of time, Claire is clearly an asset to their hospital, and her leaving would hurt everyone. 

I didnt miss Lea. 

[Kdawg82]

Enjoyed the episode a lot. Apart from the laughable (as in FAKE, not humorous) no-impulse-control tumor woman, it was good. I'm also glad it was a Lea-free episode. Park was definitely hot as well. I got the sense that Reznick with her sudden sentimentality may end up having some issues. It's either bad writing for the character or there's some reveal that will come into play later like she's pathological. You don't go from being a cold stone to practically sobbing about your friend whose child died from whooping cough. However, I'm glad they broached the subject of vaccines . It's realistic, relevant and polarizing. 

[doctor destiny]

9 hours ago, luvapickle said:

To anyone having a problem with the way Glassman acts about his tumor, welcome to the world of a person who has something he depends on taken away from him. I know, I had two brothers who went through radiation, & a mother who went through heart surgery & developed problems. They are proud, stubborn, & it is how most people act afterwards. They also develop depression, some light, some severe. I like the way they are showing this through Glassman. He is not only a person who is going through this, but a surgeon going though this. As for his surgeon, there are probably parts that were just not written in/edited out, where she has had him go through the tests. But as was shown, she can only push so much. A doctor can only "prescribe", they cannot force.

This.  Same for me including a father who died of mets to the brain.  A loving proud man, his functions were stripped from him one piece at a time.  Schiff completely nails this.  I find it deeply ironic that this program is about truly understanding what autism is - and what it is not.  The not being lacking in empathy.  Glassman is suffering terribly.  He is losing everything he holds dear and there are people posting that he is being grouchy???  The irony is that autistics often have deeper empathy than neurotypicals, some of whom are writing here without a clue what going through this must be like.  Shaun sees Glassman's pain and has dedicated, good doctor and, better, good man, to helping a man who saved his life in many ways.  A man who has dedicated and personally sacrificed way too much to help people.  

1 hour ago, Kdawg82 said:

You don't go from being a cold stone to practically sobbing about your friend whose child died from whooping cough. However, I'm glad they broached the subject of vaccines . It's realistic, relevant and polarizing. 

She didn't.  She made the story up like she made the story up of her wicked stepmother.

[doctor destiny]

So, overall a pretty solid episode.  Wonderful to see Claire show her extremely high emotional intelligence to outwit hierarchical dudes Andrews and Melendez both of whom were left bamboozled and respectful of her debating skills.  Shaun gets to shine with his diagnostic skills but also to emulate St Bonaventure, a humble skilled man who dedicated his life to the good of others and who would have been equally unhappy if the inhibited lady actually had been a devious liar and cheat.  Glassman coming to awareness of his impairments.  The very last scene showed his growing understanding and despair - so beautifully acted.  Only talking to a surrogate son who has an eidetic memory would convince him of his memory issues.  The look when he acknowledges that and when Shaun hugs himself realizing his surrogate father's impairments.  Just top notch acting.  Interesting to see anti-vaxxers who think they are outwitting the system, not just plain old deniers.  Stories are often touted as a means of selling these days but they have their limitations, particularly with overuse.

Oh and Albert (the fish) is Freddie Highmore's brother's name.  Talking of which, I did wonder at that kiss.  Being a well-known actor I guess a lot of people want a piece of you...even going about your daily business people want selfies or autographs.  The disinhibited lady steals a kiss, invades his space.  I would imagine that is what it feels like for Freddie Highmore at times.  

Edited November 21, 2018 by doctor destiny

[bros402]

7 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Ugh, I know. Not remembering the name of Shaun's brother is indicative of being in his sixties, not amnesia.

I get that Glassman is worried about his cognitive functioning but he needs to look at it like a scientist, not a character who is ignorant of medicine and brain functions.

To be fair, he should remember the name of Shaun's brother - he is an important person to Shaun. Him forgetting the name could be a sign of cognitive dysfunction, but more testing than a handful of papers would need to be done - Dr. Glassman needs a full blown neuropsych eval, a fun 6 hours of answering questions :D

[Fable]

I haven’t had much to say lately, because it seems like always playing a broken record.  I love this show still, but it seems like things don’t change much or at a very fast pace.  However, I’m good with that since I really would rather have character development, and it seems like this show delivers on that. 

I do want to say that I like Glassman, very much, in fact.  Just by virtue of aging, I feel the effects of getting older (I don’t see as well, my hearing isn’t as keen, and I’m nowhere near as nimble as I once was), and it is hard for me to admit it to myself, much less anyone else.  This is not even close to whatever is going on with Dr. Glassman, so I can’t help but sympathize with him.

I did think the memory test Shaun performed a bit lame though.  We still don’t know when he met Shaun and how much he knows about his past.  Is it realistic to believe he should know Shaun’s teachers and what was taught?  How well did he really know Shaun’s brother? 

I loved Park’s last story because surely that was about his wife, although when the husband asked if it were true he said no.  There has to be an interesting backstory there. 

No Lea worked for me.  I don’t really hate her, but she has not added much to the story. 

[doctor destiny]

48 minutes ago, Fable said:

I did think the memory test Shaun performed a bit lame though.  We still don’t know when he met Shaun and how much he knows about his past.  Is it realistic to believe he should know Shaun’s teachers and what was taught?  How well did he really know Shaun’s brother? 

 

The problem isn't that he didn't remember the teacher's name and what she does.  It's that Shaun has an eidetic memory and he knows that he said it.  And Glassman gives him a look when Shaun says "oh" because he knows he has forgotten and is finally accepting it.  He remembers the picture of Steve and he very much knew his name (as in the the episode with his doppelganger) last season.  But not his name.  Both wrong.  Both starting with an S.  But would radiation-induced memory loss kick in so soon or is this part of something more sinister?  

[Kdawg82]

7 hours ago, doctor destiny said:

She didn't.  She made the story up like she made the story up of her wicked stepmother.

Oh snap! Ok I didn't realize it. I'm always multi tasking while watching.  Making stuff up is in point with Reznick in that case. A way to manipulate.  Park is right, stories change minds. 

[angrypuppy]

I clearly spaced out during an episode and totally missed something major -- will someone remind me what exactly Claire did that pissed off Melendez to this extent?

[statsgirl]

13 hours ago, bros402 said:

To be fair, he should remember the name of Shaun's brother - he is an important person to Shaun. Him forgetting the name could be a sign of cognitive dysfunction, but more testing than a handful of papers would need to be done - Dr. Glassman needs a full blown neuropsych eval, a fun 6 hours of answering questions :D

He's an important person to Shaun but not to Glassman.  There were times after chemo and radiation I couldn't remember the name of my own brother much less someone from 20 years ago.

6 hours? Yikes!

11 hours ago, Fable said:

I did think the memory test Shaun performed a bit lame though.  We still don’t know when he met Shaun and how much he knows about his past.  Is it realistic to believe he should know Shaun’s teachers and what was taught?  How well did he really know Shaun’s brother?

It's a nice way of showing us another aspect of Shaun's ASD, that he forgets the limitations of neurotypical people.

[orza]

Quote

I clearly spaced out during an episode and totally missed something major -- will someone remind me what exactly Claire did that pissed off Melendez to this extent?

Claire presented an experimental treatment to Melendez for his patient, who reviewed and vetoed it for valid reasons. She then went behind his back and pitched the idea to his patient without telling him, never mind getting his permission. The patient wanted the treatment so she then went to the hospital board to get approval, again without consulting Melendez, putting him in a position that he had to go along with a treatment for his patient that he was opposed to. Claire committed a major breach of procedure and protocol as well as it being unprofessional, unethical and manipulative. Melendez was right to kick her off his team because she is a loose cannon whom he can't trust any more.

After recovering from surgery, the patient pretty much admitted to Claire that the treatment did indeed have the bad side effect that Melendez had strongly warned about and Claire, apparently, kept that knowledge to herself. In other words, the patient is now a lawsuit waiting to happen due to Claire's actions, but Andrews and Melendez are unaware of that.

Edited November 21, 2018 by orza

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

Claire didn't keep the side effects to herself. She put all the information she had about the procedure on the table to the board, a melendez and the patient. The patient agreed to it despite the side effects. 

And Melendez voted yes when it came up in the board meeting so he ended up consenting too.

[ElectricCityy]

I love the Claire and Melendez dynamic. They have great chemistry and I'm not opposed to a romance. However, her non-apology didn't work for me. It blows my mind how she doesn't see how it was wrong to go behind his back to get her own way. He is still her attending. That has nothing to do with being more assertive. It's just out of line.

[orza]

8 minutes ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

Claire didn't keep the side effects to herself. She put all the information she had about the procedure on the table to the board, a melendez and the patient. The patient agreed to it despite the side effects. 

And Melendez voted yes when it came up in the board meeting so he ended up consenting too.

Melendez, not Claire, pointed out the side effect that the part of the brain involved in maternal bonding and nurturing could be adversely affected. When Claire was with the patient post-surgery and the woman hugged her son, Melendez was not present. That is when the woman made th comment about she hoped it felt the same for her son. The way the scene was played made it pretty obvious that the mother was now detached and emotionally distance, indicating that Melendez had been right. When that woman has time to recover and reflect on what she has lost she will have grounds to sue the hospital.

Claire manipulated Melendez into a corner where he pretty much had to support her to minimize damage to both of their reputations and his prospects to become chief of surgery. Melendez was not supporting Claire, he was doing damage control. If they showed up at the hearing with Andrews and Allegra and obviously not on the same page, Andrews would said WTF and just given the CoS job to Lim because if Melendez couldn't keep one resident under control how could he run successfully a whole department. Melendez handled the situation correctly, in my opinion. He stopped the immediate drama and conflict, performed the operation the patient wanted and then got rid of the troublemaker so this wouldn't happen to him again.

In this episode Andrews and Allegra only wanted to keep Claire around to avoid damage to the hospital's reputation, not because they particularly valued Claire as an employee. Going behind your boss's back is never well received by upper management. If Claire had been a blonde-haired, blue-eyed white woman they would have probably let her go. Claire wanted back on Melendez's team so that's what Andrews needed to make happen regardless how he or Melendez felt about it. The final scene between Claire and Neil showed her as cold and calculating.

Claire does not understand that there is a difference between being assertive and being manipulative and argumentative, or maybe she just doesn't care. She also has the emotional maturity of a self-absorbed teenager. Claire may be good at certain aspects of her job but overall she is not a good doctor. Claire is not the victim of bad luck or unfair treatment. She is sabotaging her career all on her own. She doesn't seem to see the long-term damage she has caused to her reputation and career for the sake of a of short-term perceived win. She also doesn't get that treating patients not a zero-sum game.

I don't see any kind of romantic chemistry between Claire and Neil and I really hope the show doesn't go there. I don't see a way in this day and age they can portray a romance that is not fraught with ethical issues.

[sd dude]

Quote

This episode did not show n the west coast because of MNF and the DWTS finale.  Wonder if it will be shown again or it is only an on demand situation.

The ABC affiliate in Los Angeles broadcast the episode in that ever popular timeslot of 1:06 AM - 2:06 AM Tuesday morning (No, really. I was up then and accidentally chanced upon it in real time.)  How could anyone have missed that?

Edited November 21, 2018 by sd dude

[possibilities]

Can the woman really sue, if they informed her of the possible side effects and she gave informed consent before saying she wanted to do the procedure? If they told her it was an experimental procedure with specific risks, and she said she wanted it anyway because she had tried all approved treatments to no avail and was going to die if they couldn't offer any alternatives, doesn't that cover the hospital wrt liability?

If she said she hoped it wouldn't affect her feelings for her son, then she knew that was a possibility before signing off on it.

I agree that bosses never like it when underlings go above their head or make end runs around procedure. But I think the conflict between Claire and Melendez is about something deeper than just her respect for authority. Their essential disagreement is about whether or not the patient has a right to make informed decisions about their own care, or whether the doctor gets to decide based on their own personal biases.

Weirdly, though, Claire was willing to subvert the climber's ability to choose in another recent episode, so there is some inconsistency in her position.

Edited November 22, 2018 by possibilities

[catrice2]

I love Marsha Thomson and I do hope she comes back with Andrews.

[orza]

36 minutes ago, possibilities said:

Can the woman really sue, if they informed her of the possible side effects and she gave informed consent before saying she wanted to do the procedure? If they told her it was an experimental procedure with specific risks, and she said she wanted it anyway because she had tried all approved treatments to no avail and was going to die if they couldn't offer any alternatives, doesn't that cover the hospital wrt liability?

If she said she hoped it wouldn't affect her feelings for her son, then she knew that was a possibility before signing off on it.

I agree that bosses never like it when underlings go above their head or make end runs around procedure. But I think the conflict between Claire and Melendez is about something deeper than just her respect for authority. Their essential disagreement is about whether or not the patient has a right to make informed decisions about their own care, or whether the doctor gets to decide based on their own personal biases.

Weirdly, though, Claire was willing to subvert the climber's ability to choose in another recent episode, so there is some inconsistency in her position.

Sure, the patient could sue. It happens all the time and juries tend to be sympathetic and award high damages, even though the patients signed consent forms acknowledging the risks. Hospitals would rather settle without admitting wrongdoing than risk the bad publicity and higher cost of a trial. There were several episodes last season that had B plots dealing with scenarios of settling to avoid worse.

Patients can opt for experimental procedures if they want to but doctors can most certainly decide whether they are willing to take on the risk and liability of performing those procedures. It is not for Claire to decide what Melendez should or should do and then create a contentious situation to force the issue. That speaks to her character and it's not saying anything good. Clare thinks of herself as a victim of her mother's narcissistic manipulations, but she is looking more and more like her mother.  She uses people to get what she wants and doesn't care about the fallout for others. Convincing herself that she is "just trying to help" or she "means well" is not an excuse for her deeply unethical behavior. She is one of these horrible amoral people who masquerades as a good person.

[possibilities]

orza, are  you a physician? I'm just curious.

I would agree that, ethically, Melendez could decline to participate. I would disagree that patients should be denied awareness of options, and I consider doing that to be what is extremely unethical to do. In theory, if Melendez didn't want to do the procedure, because in his judgment it was too risky, I would support his right to decline to participate, but I still think the patient should be informed of options, even if it meant they had to seek a different doctor willing to participate. I don't know what the legalities are. But I would consider withholding of information to be unethical and I would never want to be treated by someone who was under a gag order that prevented them from informing me of potential options in a life threatening and seemingly hopeless situation.

I think Claire maybe should have gone to the administration rather than the patient, and informed Melendez that she planned to do so, purely out of respect for keeping her job and out of respect for him as a person. But I fundamentally disagree that there was anything unethical about her mission to let the patient decide what she wanted, using all the available information and not just the information cherry picked for the convenience of a doctor with a god complex who thinks it's his right to decide not only what he is willing to do but also what I should even be allowed to know exists.

Edited November 22, 2018 by possibilities

[DearEvette]

18 minutes ago, orza said:

She is one of these horrible amoral people who masquerades as a good person.

There is simply no canonical evidence to support this conclusion.

I also fail to see how Claire is manipulating Melendez?  She isn't the one who forced him to take her back.  Again, canonical evidence on screen indicates that she was quietly preparing to go elsewhere to finish her education and didn't tell anyone about it.  The only people doing any manipulation is this case were Aoki who threatened Andrews and then Andrews who threatened Melendez.  All Claire did was refuse to lie. 

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

Quote

 It is not for Claire to decide what Melendez should or should do and then create a contentious situation to force the issue. 

There is a lot I want to respond to but you are twisting this storyline into Melendez being victimized by Claire. In one of your posts, you wrote that she manipulated him and then the quote above.

Claire did not make Melendez do anything. He didn't have to vote for the procedure. He made a choice to do so.

[theatremouse]

On 11/20/2018 at 3:53 PM, statsgirl said:

Ugh, I know. Not remembering the name of Shaun's brother is indicative of being in his sixties, not amnesia.

I disagree. Glassman not remembering the teacher is reasonable given his age and reason for knowing who that was. Given how long Shaun's known him, and (it seems) how frequently Shaun's brother seemed to come up earlier in their relationship until not too long ago, that one was reasonably alarming. They did that on purpose. A progression from ok-fine-reasonable-who-besides-Shaun-would-recall (and other less conclusive questions) to the bigger more obvious question where his not remembering suggests a clear problem. Even Glassman's defensiveness was not real defensiveness; there was alarm behind it.

[dcubed]

On 11/19/2018 at 10:08 PM, Lady Calypso said:

The issue with Renick is that she feels like an entirely new character from last season, almost as if the show realized that they couldn't bring her on as a series regular and be the way she was last season. Except trying to give her humanity makes her look wishy washy. I still expect her at the end of some episodes to go back into Pale Version of Cutthroat Bitch. 

I think she’s reacting to the feedback given to her at her review.   Resnick was told (in so many words) to soften up, stop being so competitive and cut throat, and be more of a team player.  And she is trying, even if it doesn’t come natural to her (and to me), it feels awkward and forced at times, like she’s still unsure of whether she should be so vulnerable.  She is the ying to Claire’s yang, whose push to be more assertive is coming off as brash and disrespectful at times.  There have definitely been times this season where I thought Claire was unlikable her while Resnick was becoming more tolerable.  That represents necessary growth for both characters.

[bros402]

9 hours ago, statsgirl said:

He's an important person to Shaun but not to Glassman.  There were times after chemo and radiation I couldn't remember the name of my own brother much less someone from 20 years ago.

6 hours? Yikes!

True. But that is my point - it shows that the treatment *is* affecting Glassman. Yeah, a neuropsych evaluation is very long - and I Imagine one done pre-cancer treatment would be rather extensive, especially since it is a brain cancer, they'd want to check every faculty they can test with a neuropsych evaluation.

[doctor destiny]

11 hours ago, ElectricCityy said:

I love the Claire and Melendez dynamic. They have great chemistry and I'm not opposed to a romance. However, her non-apology didn't work for me. It blows my mind how she doesn't see how it was wrong to go behind his back to get her own way. He is still her attending. That has nothing to do with being more assertive. It's just out of line.

Feels like the way management is changing these days.  I am a "people manager".  Have been for a while.  What has changed in my career is a move towards the paradigm of manager as coach.  You don't really tell people to do things anymore and the young kids get to chime in as they have a clue about technology.  I kind of like it.  These kids like Claire don't see the world in the same way as Melendez and Andrews, both of whom are deeply hierarchical (and very often for very good reason).  You can see the respect on Melendez's face for Claire's logic.  He was also hoping, looking for a way out I think.  I like the way that she stands her ground even if we oldies think she was wrong.  She simply doesn't see it that way and cuts through Andrews' BS like a hot knife through butter.  As to the patient, it's pretty clear she would have died without the brain operation.  In Claire's perspective she saved a life and did nothing wrong.  In Melendez's she broke protocol even if it meant saving a life.  He's upset in the same way he was with Shaun...yes he saved the boy at the airport but would he be able to act accordingly with the next patient?  He doesn't like the uncertainty more than anything else.  But I think he does fundamentally trust and respect Claire.

[possibilities]

I thought Claire actually helped Melendez by being willing to stay and give him a face-saving "out" of his dilemma. She could have left quietly, and I'm not sure she actually realized that anyone would try to make her stay. They had been allowing Melendez to refuse to work with her, so from her point of view the program had already let her know they didn't care about her and she probably thought she had to leave before they cut her entirely.

But when she realized that the admin wanted to keep her, and was leaning on Melendez to back down, she gave him an honest way to salvage the situation.

That's why I thought she was so impressive here. She was able to come up with a strategy that worked for both of them.

However, the underlying disagreement is still in play. What will she do next time she thinks he's wrong?

[doctor destiny]

15 hours ago, bros402 said:

True. But that is my point - it shows that the treatment *is* affecting Glassman. Yeah, a neuropsych evaluation is very long - and I Imagine one done pre-cancer treatment would be rather extensive, especially since it is a brain cancer, they'd want to check every faculty they can test with a neuropsych evaluation.

Agreed.  He very much knew who Steve was in the first series with the boy, Evan.  The question is how much of this is treatment vs. something else.

Edited November 22, 2018 by doctor destiny

[bros402]

8 hours ago, doctor destiny said:

Agreed.  He very much knew who Steve was in the first series with the boy, Evan.  The question is how much of this is treatment vs. something else.

Probably a bit from column A, a bit from column B

[Dusty]

On 11/22/2018 at 1:44 PM, possibilities said:

However, the underlying disagreement is still in play. What will she do next time she thinks he's wrong?

Go around him again probably. She's done it twice this season and it's gotten her what she wanted.

[TurtlePower]

Didn't really care for this episode for some reason. I was quite happy Lea did not make an appearance, though. 

[possibilities]

I think it was very light on Shaun, and that always makes things less engaging.