The Starling City Times: News and Media about Arrow

[ladylaw99]

The big question is how are they going to fix it?

There is no saving the noobs for alot of viewers and now they have split OTA. How do you fix this mess. OTA for me is not the problem because Diggle had a break down and needs some time away and he will be back but the noobs for me is the new LL problem but with more screen time because there's three of them

[tangerine95]

I don't really have much understanding in this case because imo it was totally obvious that the newbies didn't have a point at all.Like everyone pointed out they wrote them as furious at OTA for not trusting them while doing the exact things they were suspected of.That's not logical and you'd think they would be able to see that while writing it.I can maybe see how they could underestimate how much the constant snarkiness and insulting attitude at OTA would be disliked but it didn't just stop at that,the newbies literally physically attacked as well.When your characters are doing things to the main hero that are usually reserved for villains you'd think it's time to rethink the storyline.

I really think MG constantly underestimates the audience and how much they know these characters and how they actually remember previous seasons and can realize when something doesn't make sense.

Edited April 8, 2018 by tangerine95

[Mrs. de Winter]

8 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I'm not excusing it but, I can see how they wouldn't catch how much the Noobs were hated until it was way to late to correct.

I think if they have taken the names off and given someone the actions/motives of the two teams and asked if they were equally valid, they would have gotten the feedback they needed.    Also - I don't think they should be as unaware as they claim they are - you cannot pretend that tracking someone by having them eat tracking devices as no big deal one season and then pretend that it is worthy of being viewed as a profound betrayal the next.  The same character acting as if she has experienced the highest possible betrayal by being lied to - while simultaneously lying (again) to the same people is just poor writing.  

But I am not surprised they missed it because MG seems to believe we should all watch and be happy and at the end he will tell us what we how we were supposed to have seen things and it will all be fine.  Which is nuts.  

I also think it was exacerbated by the acting - OTA was much more reserved in their portrayal vs the noobies who just kept coming across as petulant whiners who only cared about their egos.  They should have stepped in here and told certain people to tone it way, way down.  

What makes even less sense to me now is that if they were going to remove Diggle from Oliver's side anyway, why not have him be one of the three that originally left?  If they intended this to be a both sides are equal view they needed to have balance in terms of the - for lack of a better term - "value" of the teams.  Did he not notice in Civil War that it was not the lead characters vs the supporting characters - but a balance of long term, well loved characters split between the two sides?  Even if I have a preference between the two positions, I have never actively rooted for the other side to disappear forever.  Which is not the case with MG version.  

[doesntworkonwood]

3 minutes ago, way2interested said:

 

and so the writers are supposed to write towards people's reactions of things they haven't seen yet or know what's going to happen?

 

I mean, MG just admitted that he should have taken into account the fact that fans have history with OTA that they don't with with the newbies so yes? I mean there's a difference between writing towards it, and taking it into account when plotting a story line. They should certainly have taken it into account. If these writers were better they'd have noted it and reigned back on how snarky the newbies were. This is pretty much a universally hated story line, so I'm really shocked that they didn't catch it. 

I don't expect the writers to be perfect, but since 609 people have been pointing out how hypocritical the newbies are, but there's been no attempt to fix it or even write in a reason for it. I don't think that this is because the writers are being purposefully bad, but they have a history of being quite obtuse when it comes to audience reaction and this is another example. 

[Belinea]

12 minutes ago, ladylaw99 said:

The big question is how are they going to fix it?

It is probably just a big question for us because we took a side in a fight that MG assumed was even. Therefore them coming together again at some point might be weird for us because we might not want them back together. But the details might not make a lot of sense.

However, I believe that by giving this interview MG is basically doing some sort of damage control so that the rest of the story doesn't seem completely absurd. 

[Mary0360]

1 hour ago, KenyaJ said:

Arrow Boss Weighs In on Fan Reaction to OTA vs. NTA, Possible Miscalculation

By Matt Webb Mitovich / April 8 2018

And he still doesn't get it. Yes, the love and affection people have for OTA versus the pre-civil war indifference for NTA is a factor, but no, the arguments are not "equal and equally strong."  "You didn't trust me" is not a valid argument after you've betrayed someone's trust by cutting a plea deal with the FBI or by sharing romantic moments with someone who has tried to kill me. JFC. They're damn right Oliver didn't trust them; they weren't trustworthy at all! I can't believe MG really thinks they both have valid points of view. But he also thought "My baby mama made me keep my son's existence a secret from my fiancée -- what was I supposed to do?" was a valid argument, so par for the course, I guess.

I love how basically Marc is trying to spin at fans just watching the show wrong. "We had a well written storyline, but they are just favouring the original characters and they don't read comics so their too dumb to get it".

 

Aah Marc how then do you explain that not one reviewer - including the person interviewing you- has had a good word to say about this storyline or seen the "equal and equally strong sides".

26 minutes ago, ladylaw99 said:

The big question is how are they going to fix it?

Rushed and glossed over ;)

[way2interested]

19 minutes ago, doesntworkonwood said:

I mean there's a difference between writing towards it, and taking it into account when plotting a story line. They should certainly have taken it into account. If these writers were better they'd have noted it and reigned back on how snarky the newbies were.

There is a difference, and I do think it should have been more of a taking into account possible reactions thing, I was arguing against when you said that they should have known it wouldn't work because "people were actually quite worried about the story line even before it aired," since that would imply that that they should see what people are saying and stray towards or away from something simply because people online were worried about something (and worried about what? Some people were worried that it was going to be Diggle vs Oliver and that's not what 609 was so they didn't have to worry about that. Some people were worried that Oliver was going to do something stupid and that's not what 609 did either. They might not have seen any worries of "oh I hope the newbies don't become aggravating though this," because frankly no one made a large concern over that). And then by 609 it's too late to reign in snark in 610 or 611 and then it's become a trait that they can't drop without explanation or cause especially going into and coming out of 614.

19 minutes ago, doesntworkonwood said:

I don't expect the writers to be perfect, but since 609 people have been pointing out how hypocritical the newbies are, but there's been no attempt to fix it or even write in a reason for it. I don't think that this is because the writers are being purposefully bad, but they have a history of being quite obtuse when it comes to audience reaction and this is another example. 

They kept thinking they explained it (610, 614, and even 617 did recaps explaining their positions and reclarifying the same flawed positions of the newbies), I think, which is again an execution/expectation problem. The whole set up is the problem and they can't write around the problem they inadvertently made, but I would argue that they've at least tried to write away from it (Rene, the ultimate cause of this, is out for 4 whole episodes in a row, Dinah and Curtis were written away from the OTA plots and are trying to do useful things, but at this point they can't just write them away or write them all apologizing before the *mandatory low point*). This, I think, is just the biggest example of the flaws behind their plot/tentpole set-up process, rather than their reaction mess ups. 

19 minutes ago, doesntworkonwood said:

I mean there's a difference between writing towards it, and taking it into account when plotting a story line. They should certainly have taken it into account. If these writers were better they'd have noted it and reigned back on how snarky the newbies were.

There is a difference, and I do think it should have been more of a taking into account possible reactions thing, I was arguing against when you said that they should have known it wouldn't work because "people were actually quite worried about the story line even before it aired," since that would imply that that they should see what people are saying and stray towards or away from something simply because people online were worried about something (and worried about what? Some people were worried that it was going to be Diggle vs Oliver and that's not what 609 was so they didn't have to worry about that. Some people were worried that Oliver was going to do something stupid and that's not what 609 did either. They might not have seen any worries of "oh I hope the newbies don't become aggravating though this," because frankly no one made a large concern over that). And then by 609 it's too late to reign in snark in 610 or 611 and then it's become a trait that they can't drop without explanation or cause especially going into and coming out of 614.

19 minutes ago, doesntworkonwood said:

I don't expect the writers to be perfect, but since 609 people have been pointing out how hypocritical the newbies are, but there's been no attempt to fix it or even write in a reason for it. I don't think that this is because the writers are being purposefully bad, but they have a history of being quite obtuse when it comes to audience reaction and this is another example. 

They kept thinking they explained it (610, 614, and even 617 did recaps explaining their positions and reclarifying the same flawed positions of the newbies), I think, which is again an execution/expectation problem. The whole set up is the problem and they can't write around the problem they inadvertently made, but I would argue that they've at least tried to write away from it (Rene, the ultimate cause of this, is out for 5 whole episodes in a row, Dinah and Curtis were written away from the OTA plots and are trying to do useful things, but at this point they can't just write them away or write them all apologizing before the *mandatory low point*). This, I think, is just the biggest example of the flaws behind their plot/tentpole set-up process, rather than their reaction mess ups. 

Edited April 8, 2018 by way2interested

[KenyaJ]

28 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I would give them more of a pass if the writing wasn’t so blatantly contradictory. I mean Dinah is lying to the team and then yelling about not being trusted in the same episode. The same writers. How do they miss that? 

The same way they told us Susan wasn't shady while showing her doing shady thing after shady thing. There's such a disconnect between what they write and how they mean for us to respond to it.

[Angel12d]

Color me surprised that MG is even admitting they "miscalculated," especially while the season is still airing. I wouldn't call a complete disconnect from your audience a miscalculation but whatever. 

Familiarity and fan favorites were always going to be a factor in this kind of story because you usually support your faves over newer characters. But the fact is they didn't even write the newbies as in the right? So there was never a case of "I love OTA but the newbies have a point here." And then they just continued to have the newbies be nasty, snide and hypocritical while OTA were nothing but mature. Not to mention they stopped helping the city completely after 609 while OTA continued suiting up and trying to find Cayden James. It wasn't just bad writing but it was a lack of perception of their characters and their audience. A disaster on every level.

What's worse is that instead of fixing their mistakes and having the newbies apologize or realize they're in the wrong, they've doubled down on it and thrown Diggle under the bus to give their POV some weight. It's infuriating and only makes me hate the newbies more. IDGI.

[Mary0360]

1 minute ago, Angel12d said:

Color me surprised that MG is even admitting they "miscalculated," especially while the season is still airing. I wouldn't call a complete disconnect from your audience a miscalculation but whatever. 

Familiarity and fan favorites were always going to be a factor in this kind of story because you usually support your faves over newer characters. But the fact is they didn't even write the newbies as in the right? So there was never a case of "I love OTA but the newbies have a point here." And then they just continued to have the newbies be nasty, snide and hypocritical while OTA were nothing but mature. Not to mention they stopped helping the city completely after 609 while OTA continued suiting up and trying to find Cayden James. It wasn't just bad writing but it was a lack of perception of their characters and their audience. A disaster on every level.

What's worse is that instead of fixing their mistakes and having the newbies apologize or realize they're in the wrong, they've doubled down on it and thrown Diggle under the bus to give their POV some weight. It's infuriating and only makes me hate the newbies more. IDGI.

In fact if they are admitting they were aware of the reactions and had decided it was because people were loyal to OTA more, then whose to say that the whole DigglevsOliver split wasn't them trying to course correct late in the season. Have Diggle validate the newbies side so maybe people who love Diggle and OTA will see the "equally strong sides". 

[Belinea]

5 minutes ago, Mary0360 said:

Have Diggle validate the newbies side so maybe people who love Diggle and OTA will see the "equally strong sides". 

To me it seems like that is exactly what happened. 

[Angel12d]

5 minutes ago, Mary0360 said:

In fact if they are admitting they were aware of the reactions and had decided it was because people were loyal to OTA more, then whose to say that the whole DigglevsOliver split wasn't them trying to course correct late in the season. Have Diggle validate the newbies side so maybe people who love Diggle and OTA will see the "equally strong sides". 

That's possible too. And if that's the case they're even dumber than I thought because the audience can see through that kind of manipulation. And no matter how OOC they make Diggle I'm always going to like him and I'll only resent the newbies even more because I can see they're the reason Diggle is being written that way. If they have to twist a character into a completely different person just to give 3 others the support in a storyline, they've messed up. Big time.

[way2interested]

Diggle was written that way to get Oliver all alone at some point, and this plot was set up from 603 already, plus wouldn't that be saying "oh the writers are good at perceiving exactly what the audience wants, but only when it's stuff they know people aren't going to like"?

[lemotomato]

Didn't SA mention at a con in Novermber/December that he had voiced his concerns to the writers about Oliver being the only one thrown under the bus for the conflict with the newbies? That wasn't enough of a clue to MG that maybe the writing wasn't as balanced as he thought it was?

[statsgirl]

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I'm not excusing it but, I can see how they wouldn't catch how much the Noobs were hated until it was way to late to correct.

After they got blindsided (if they really were blindsided and not just faking)  in s5 with how much Rene was disliked while Rory was the one most people wanted to stay, they should have been aware of the possibility that the audience wasn't going to see this plot the way the writers room did, and taken steps to cover their asses just in case given how important it is.

Not just to this season, but to the next one too if they are planning on having any of the n00bs stick around for it.  Any new characters need to be a strength to the show, especially replacing Thea, Roy and even Laurel and possibility any other character like Quentin if something happens to him, not a liability.

In other words, they've known since mid season 5 that Rene was a problem and Curtis too, and they still went head with this idea. That's just stupid.

Edited April 8, 2018 by statsgirl

[leopardprint]

MG has never shown any propensity towards admitting he’s wrong or accepting criticism with any kind of grace so I think this interview is as close to a mea culpa as he will get. (arguments about the quality of SM criticisms not withstanding) 

I actually think they DID expect that people would be on OTA’s side and overcompensated towards NTA because a) Rene had a perfectly legitimate setup of being between a rock and a hard place of choosing between loyalty to Oliver and custody of his child but they never spent any time showing that struggle on his or Dinah’s part. They just acted like Oliver was wrong wrong wrong.  I got nothing on Curtis, his storyline has gone to the Felicity Smoak Memorial Storyline Graveyard. 

TLDR: Arrow once again ignores character development to hit MG’s comic book bulletpoints. 

[calliope1975]

2 hours ago, Belinea said:

It sounds like a lot of PR spin. What I get from it is that a) they did understand that people hated the storyline and b) he either truly doesn't get why or he is just deflecting. They just assumed people would say 'Yes, superheroes fight, so while we don't like it, we get it because we have seen Civil War.  

 

I agree this seems like spin. What I am surprised about is how vocal SA is about this story. He's always been a wait and see until the end of the season guy, and this time he's straight up just like, "No, this is garbage. I know it. You know it. Let's just get through this."

2 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I disagree, i think this storyline would have worked with 2 changes. One being characters involved. If this was OTA vs Roy/Thea/Laurel (ok that's a reach for me) or Roy/Thea/Noob,  it would have worked because people cared about those characters.  The other problem is the arguments involved were NOT equal. I don't know what they intended but, THEY made the Noobs look like petulant brats and THEY made the Noobs cross a HUGE line in 614.

I think the storyline could have worked with either of those changes and would have succeeded with both but, they really screwed the pooch on this one.

I also think this could have worked with Teen Arrow if the original group (Thea/Roy/Sin) had stuck around. Hell, is they had a small arc with Roy and Rory returning and joining Thea for some plot. Or having Diggle side with a returned Roy and Thea. There are ways it possibly could have worked with NTA, but all the characters and the audience were let down by the writers.  

2 hours ago, KenyaJ said:

Not only that, but it's hard to believe none of the writers realized how unlikeable, petulant, and petty NTA was after the split. Did they really expect the audience to nod along every time they trashtalked Oliver?

Jesus couldn't fix this mess, at this point.

That's what's weird to me. Split the group up, fine. But don't make one side repeatedly reasonable and willing to work together, and the other petulant, rude, and hell if I'll ever want to look at Curtis again after what he did to Digg. 

 

2 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

After they got blindsided (if they really were blindsided and not just faking)  in s5 with how much Rene was disliked while Rory was the one most people wanted to stay, they should have been aware of the possibility that the audience wasn't going to see this plot the way the writers room did, and taken steps to cover their asses just in case given how important it is.

 

I was just about to type this same thing. They already had feedback before starting to write this arc that Rory was much more liked than the rest of NTA. Someone, somewhere had to have had a clue this split and the way they handled it would not go over well. It was probably that bagel-paid intern, but I fervently hope a thought occurred. 

[apinknightmare]

What kills me about this is that they wrote an episode where Rene felt remorse for what he'd done and asked Curtis to fix it. And then continued being outraged over Oliver not trusting him when he'd admitted that he'd betrayed Oliver and done something untrustworthy! I have a big word document for brainstorming when I write, and I use the same document for jotting down different ideas and snippets of conversations that I think of for whatever story I happen to be thinking about at the moment. It seems like the writers' room does the same thing and just throws darts at the wall and whichever idea they hit is the one they write about for the next episode, whether it fits the rest of the story or not. 

[tennisgurl]

Wow, that interview. Thats a swing and a miss there MG. He realized this story wasn't working...and still has no freaking clue why. Yeah, its obvious that people will naturally side with the characters they know and love over the Noobs that we just met, but thats not the only reason! The problem is that the Noobs acted like petty assholes the whole time over crap that isnt anywhere as bad as the stuff they were doing. But, others have already said all this better than I can, so I can just shake my head in confusion. 

I will say, it is weird that MG and SA are both basically saying that they know this season has sucked, right in the middle of the season! Of course, SA just seems frustrated and confused, while MG seems defensive. "You didnt like it? It must be the fault of the stupid, non comic book reading audience!". I mean, this isnt the first time he hasn't understood audience reaction (as others said, they tried super hard to push Curtis even when he wasn't landing) but this one seems particularly bad. This story has been baffling and horribly written, and now MG is trying to do damage control now that people are calling them out.

[Morrigan2575]

 Let me specificy, I'm not defending them because I think they screwed this storyline up royally.

• That being said, I don't think the average TV viewer will hate the Noobs forever the way online fandom will
• Even if they did, I don't think it matters much, since Arrow is closer to the end than the beginning of its run
• I don't think they were aware that people hated Curtis and, to be honest I don't think most people (outside of here/Felicity fans) hated Curtis.
• I think they feel they corrected the S5 issue with Rene and, to an extent they did. Going back to pre 609 (hell even including 609) most people stopped hating on Rene and either accepted him or tolerated him (we saw MANY comments here saying as much). 
• Of course most people turned their hatred from Rene to Dinah, coincidentally once Dinah starting getting attention/screentime.

My guess is, their S7 course correction will be to push Dinah and Rene into the background. If they really want to force a liking they'll also have Dinah and Rene get beat up/knocked out a bunch. I swear people hated Roy in S1 and, only started coming around to him in S2 when he was getting hit over the head every week.

I dont think they'll do anything about Curtis because, I don't think they recognize that there is an issue with Curtis beyond the Civil War thing.

[Angel12d]

I agree with @Morrigan2575 that this type of storyline COULD have worked if it had been a OTA vs Roy, Thea, someone else, even Laurel tbh. Half of the problem here is that most people don't care about the newbies and they're mostly just tolerated. If OTA had gone up against characters who had been on the show the same length of time, fandom would have really been split because there would have been equal investment on both sides. Possibly. There are other factors with the writing that still probably would have failed tbh.

I also agree that the general audience probably won't hate the newbies as much as online fandom will but unfortunately for them, online fandom is where most of their buzz gets created so it's a different kind of problem. 

Personally I will never like the newbies again but there are ways to make them more tolerable seeing as they're going nowhere. I'd want to see them all acknowledge their mistakes and apologize and I want to see about 50% less focus on them for at least half a season. Haha. Also, I'd like Curtis to die but I'm not that lucky. ?

Saying that, I doubt any of that will happen because MG thinks he's written the sides to be equal and therein lies the problem. 

Edited April 8, 2018 by Angel12d

[Primal Slayer]

I dont know how MG and co. continue to be the complete opposite of how they think fans will react. Putting brand new characters against older characters is already a no no, should've mixed it up. Secondly.....you made NTA look like assholes throughout! They had the team stop suiting after they had their falling out and then they had them fight the older characters and play dirty at that. They've done nothing to have us be on their side. 

Trying to "revitalize" the series with half the cast being replaced with newbies was stupid. 

[Trisha]

2 hours ago, thegirlsleuth said:

Also, usually Guggenheim and Stephen only admit problems in the season after the fact—usually when they overcorrect the following season—but it’s interesting that they are admitting now that the season was a disaster. 

It’s actually pretty remarkable to watch unfold. To have SA be actively, repeatedly criticizing an ongoing season (and not just at conventions where the vast majority of the audience will never hear it, but in interviews as well), and then to have the showrunner publicly admit to a major “miscalculation” before the season is even over? It’s pretty unheard of, especially for this show. I wonder to what end? It’s already been renewed, and the CW doesn’t seem to care about ratings so why put a spotlight on it? (Not that I don’t love that he’s being called out. Just from a business/PR perspective it confuses me.)

I only hope MG and the writers read the comments on that article because they are eviscerating his audience-blaming “the fans are just biased” excuses. 

[Lady Calypso]

I'm just going to say this right now: if Marc Guggenheim had done this plotline in season 3 with OTA, Roy, Thea, and Laurel, I feel fairly certain that it would have been better received. Characters that people have grown to like for three seasons, it's also still earlier in the series before Oliver's complete growth, and they already had the idea set up by 3B, after throwing Oliver off the mountain for three episodes and him off the team for a bit. I mean, thinking about it, they kind of already did a mini version of what they're doing now. They just didn't commit to it back then as much as they have here. 

Marc's a damn fool who shouldn't be running his own show if he couldn't anticipate how his audience would react to his supposed Great Season Arc. 

[Morrigan2575]

I'm curious as to what prompted the current damage control? 

I don't think it was online fans reaction, if it was that, they'd wait until the summer (like usual).

I'm betting it was the abundance of media sites/reviewers criticizing it that prompted the "oops we screwed up... Sorta". 

ETA: Maybe even SA's little talk with them a few weeks back?

Edited April 8, 2018 by Morrigan2575

[Happy Harpy]

1 hour ago, Angel12d said:

Color me surprised that MG is even admitting they "miscalculated," especially while the season is still airing.

My guess: Someone must have been told next season would be the last unless the ratings were going back up, whereas someone hoped to milk three or four more seasons out of Arrow with the newbies cast.

TPTB fridged Sara in S3 whereas they knew that she was pretty much favored over Laurel as BC, they went for Baby Mama and MySon drama whereas they knew since S1 that most people (shippers and romance/soap haters alike) hated the idea, etc. Imo, they're perfectly aware of what people like or not, they just didn't care since it didn't affect the ratings (year average) until S5. The only thing they miscalculated was how if they attacked the very core elements of the show, people wouldn't just complain but actually stop watching.

Arrow's ratings year to year dropped 35% for S5 and 25% so far this season. A vocal minority can't achieve that, so it seems that general audiences don't like the current state of the show more than the online fandom (and since Arrow's lead-in more or less maintains, it's a specific problem with the show itself, not the line-up).

Edited April 8, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[Primal Slayer]

I think MG and WM may be stretching themselves a bit to thin because they really need to sit down and focus on their storylines and have them clearly thought out. Maybe bring in a focus group like they do with movies lol. This season has had good ideas, just all of them have been half-assed 

[JamieLynn832002]

I just can't understand the thought process here, "Let's make the newbies, who fans tolerate at best, hypocritical, self-righteous jackasses who turn against Oliver after one of them betrays him. Oh my God, fans hate NTA, clearly it's because fans are loyal to OTA and not because we made NTA terrible people! Damage control time, we made a mistake, we didn't think fans would watch the show wrong!"

[tennisgurl]

What really gets me is MG being all "I am shocked, shocked to find out that fans didnt like this arc!", when we all know that just cannot be true. We live in a time where fans and creators are easier to access than ever before. Social media is a major part of the TV game now, with almost every show having a social media presence, even having actors and writers and such tweeting along with the show to interact with fans. Shows like Arrow have a major steak in social media buzz, and interacting with the fan community. The rise of internet fandom has changed the game, and the writers all know this. If you want to know how fans are reacting to a story, you just need to go onto any message board, Facebook, Twitter, Tublr, YouTube, etc. And, yeah you'll always have people have differing opinions, and you cant run your show based solely around fan reaction, but its hard to act surprised about how fans are feeling when literally everyone on every board is saying basically the same thing. Fans are literally telling them how they feel, and all we get is "well, I guess maybe some fans are not super thrilled..." You cant use that excuse anymore! You either know, and didnt care, or you deliberately didnt look. 

[Mellowyellow]

Do they get data on the CW app and who is streaming the show etc?

I wonder if that's gone down as well.

[Lady Calypso]

3 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

What really gets me is MG being all "I am shocked, shocked to find out that fans didnt like this arc!", when we all know that just cannot be true. We live in a time where fans and creators are easier to access than ever before. Social media is a major part of the TV game now, with almost every show having a social media presence, even having actors and writers and such tweeting along with the show to interact with fans. Shows like Arrow have a major steak in social media buzz, and interacting with the fan community. The rise of internet fandom has changed the game, and the writers all know this. If you want to know how fans are reacting to a story, you just need to go onto any message board, Facebook, Twitter, Tublr, YouTube, etc. And, yeah you'll always have people have differing opinions, and you cant run your show based solely around fan reaction, but its hard to act surprised about how fans are feeling when literally everyone on every board is saying basically the same thing. Fans are literally telling them how they feel, and all we get is "well, I guess maybe some fans are not super thrilled..." You cant use that excuse anymore! You either know, and didnt care, or you deliberately didnt look. 

True. Plus, how could Marc be so blind as to how NTA was written? Unless Marc literally didn't read the scripts, watch any scenes from the show from 6x09 on, didn't go online ever, and the writers all ganged up together to write NTA as obnoxiously as possible, I just don't get what he even sees. 

[Primal Slayer]

53 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

True. Plus, how could Marc be so blind as to how NTA was written? Unless Marc literally didn't read the scripts, watch any scenes from the show from 6x09 on, didn't go online ever, and the writers all ganged up together to write NTA as obnoxiously as possible, I just don't get what he even sees. 

I honestly think that MG is nothing like Joss Whedon who literally had a hand in every Buffy script for majority of the series. He probably tells them what he wants in the storyline and that's it. His knowledge probably doesn't transcend what they discuss in the writers room. 

[thegirlsleuth]

If the EPs really wanted longevity they should have used Supernatural as a model.  At the end of the day, the show is about two brothers driving around in an impala fighting supernatural forces.  Admittedly, I haven't watched since season 4, but its not like Sam and Dean picked up a couple of hitchhikers in season 5 and the show built the stories around those hitchhikers.  They have great supporting characters, but the focus is never off Sam and Dean, just like the focus should have stayed on OTA (plus one sidekick).

[statsgirl]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

Wow, that interview. Thats a swing and a miss there MG. He realized this story wasn't working...and still has no freaking clue why. Yeah, its obvious that people will naturally side with the characters they know and love over the Noobs that we just met, but thats not the only reason! The problem is that the Noobs acted like petty assholes the whole time over crap that isnt anywhere as bad as the stuff they were doing.

Someone at the TV Line site had a good point:  Rene, who we have no real attachment to, gives up Oliver at the first hurdle.  Roy, who we care about lots, comes back, is tortured, and still doesn't give up Oliver.

It's not just that we care more about the longterm characters; it's that they are better people.  How can these professional writers not see that?

[Mellowyellow]

3 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

I honestly think that MG is nothing like Joss Whedon who literally had a hand in every Buffy script for majority of the series. He probably tells them what he wants in the storyline and that's it. His knowledge probably doesn't transcend what they discuss in the writers room. 

But how could the writers be SO BAD at their jobs! Sorry I'm not griping at you, I'm just griping in general!

Are they forcing writers to write things they have no idea about? Like forcing someone with the skills to write "Gossip Girl" to write a season of say Octonauts (kids show)?

WHY WHY WHY?????

[Primal Slayer]

20 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

But how could the writers be SO BAD at their jobs! Sorry I'm not griping at you, I'm just griping in general!

Are they forcing writers to write things they have no idea about? Like forcing someone with the skills to write "Gossip Girl" to write a season of say Octonauts (kids show)?

WHY WHY WHY?????

This is the same show that started off their major "couple" with the boyfriend cheating on his gf with her sister and having the mother encourage it. They like their cheap drama. They don't take the time to really think about a storyline.

[BunsenBurner]

What MG fails to understand is that Arrow is not a comic book, it’s a television show  

It’s based off of a comic book but because it is a TV show it has to  have substance. I don’t believe that MG can separate this in his mindset. This is why the show continues to have the same plot lines, like the comics have, rather than fleshed out story lines, like TV shows have, over and over again. 

 

I also feel that MG has given up on Arrow. He got the show to 5 years and he has nothing more to add to the show. 

Edited April 9, 2018 by BunsenBurner
Added last line.

[Trisha]

10 Couples That Hurt the Arrowverse (And 10 That Saved It):

https://screenrant.com/arrowverse-couples-good-bad/

[bijoux]

I agree and disagree with that article in fairly equal measures, but the bit about Dinah and Vince is hilarious.

Quote

Arrow has been through an almost shocking number of Black Canaries. Dinah Drake, who was introduced in season 5, immediately popped fitting perfectly into the Canary role. Dinah was strong, independent and acerbically amusing. Then Arrow (re)introduced her long-lost love, Vincent Sobel.

Dinah thought Vince had died. Instead he developed a metahuman healing factor and became the vigilante, named Vigilante. (Vince wasn’t very creative.)

There were a lot of missteps made with Dinah and Vince.

The romance was way too advanced for audiences to ever invest in fully. The audience was playing catch-up.

Furthermore, Dinah and Vince seemed to be barely tolerate each other during their rocky relationship. A relationship that ended with Vince being murdered and Dinah spinning to a murderous rage, which took her character to a dark and deeply unlikable place.

For the sake of Arrow, and Dinah’s character, Vince just should’ve stayed dead.

[tv echo]

Belated review...

Agents of GEEK Podcast Episode 111
Craig Wack & Tatiana Torres  04/08/2018
http://agentsofgeekpodcast.com/wordpress/

-- Arrow 616: About Thea's exit from the show, Tatiana joked that WH didn't even want to be on a few episodes per season and wondered what was going on behind the scenes. Craig noted that WH doesn't show up on social media with her cast mates any more. Tatiana said that they were still keeping KC around and that you can still see CH on social media with Arrow cast members, so it was "weird" that they couldn't keep WH around. Craig didn't blame WH for not sticking around because of what they've done with Thea. He also said that WH has this "waif thing" going on, but that won't last much longer because she's "running out of her 20's." Craig said that "there's some interesting drama there that we're not seeing." Craig noted that Thea's been the actual mayor these past two years, so "in a lot of ways Oliver has lost his most competent advisor." 

-- Arrow 617: Craig noted that, with this Diggle storyline, the show was continuing its theme of "isolating Oliver," which Tatiana thought "makes no sense at all." Craig agreed, saying it was "a tough, tough sell for me to buy what they were trying to sell."

-- Tatiana said that, throughout all the OTA vs NTA fighting, the three of them - Oliver, Diggle and Felicity - have all been "almost 100% on the same page... 'this is what's best for everyone, this is what's best for the city'... Everyone's been on the same f**kin' page." But now, out of nowhere, Diggle is like, I don't agree with this plan any more, because he wants to be the Green Arrow. Craig disagreed on Diggle's reasons, saying that Diggle didn't like that Oliver said being the Green Arrow completed him. Tatiana noted that Oliver didn't say that Diggle can't be a superhero, he can still be Spartan.

-- Tatiana was frustrated because, for five years Oliver has not been great at sharing or trusting or expressing his feelings, but now in this season Oliver has "told the truth, expressed feelings, shared, invited other people to join in on his plans, whether they're good or not, and it has backfired every time." She wondered if the show just wants Oliver to "carry the weight of the world on his shoulders by himself and not tell anyone anything" because that's what these episodes seem to be saying.

-- Craig pointed out that Oliver was "stringing Diggle along," but Tatiana said that he wasn't doing it intentionally and didn't realize himself that he still wanted to be the Green Arrow.

-- Craig said that he "has trouble getting interested in this isolating Oliver storyline" because he felt that it was already been done the past two seasons, especially with Prometheus. Tatiana thought that Prometheus was "scary" while Diaz is just a mob boss. Craig noted that we don't know much about Diaz, other than he's a "really effective mob boss." Tatiana didn't think that Diaz seemed like "that bad a dude" compared to past bad guys. She pointed out that Diaz is just trying to make a lot of money and that "he's not trying to destroy the world."

-- Craig said that he "didn't know what the heck they're doing with the whole Laurel sideline." He joked that the preview for the next episode "opens up all of your nightmares, Oliver & Felicity break up, and Oliver tumbles into the arms of Black Siren." Tatiana said that she would "literally quit watching this show." Craig said that "Laurel was playing both sides of the fence."

-- Tatiana mentioned that the show has been renewed for a seventh seasons and said, "Don't give me any of this shit next year." 

Edited April 9, 2018 by tv echo

[Lady Calypso]

Colton Haynes set to return to Arrow next season as a series regular

Quote

“We’re very fortunate and excited to welcome back Colton to Arrow,” the show’s executive producers said in a statement. “While we’ve always enjoyed Colton’s returns to the show, we couldn’t be more thrilled to have him return as a proper series regular — and we’re very excited about all the creative opportunities Roy Harper’s return affords us.”

Haynes in turn said, “I could not be happier to return to my role as Roy Harper alongside my Arrow family.”

Ok. This made me excited for next season. Though what happens with Willa/Thea, then?

[Primal Slayer]

So much for them not having the money to support all the series regulars unless they cut 2 more.

[Belinea]

3 hours ago, tv echo said:

-- Tatiana was frustrated because, for five years Oliver has not been great at sharing or trusting or expressing his feelings, but now in this season Oliver has "told the truth, expressed feelings, shared, invited other people to join in on his plans, whether they're good or not, and it has backfired every time." She wondered if the show just wants Oliver to "carry the weight of the world on his shoulders by himself and not tell anyone anything" because that's what these episodes seem to be saying.

I totally agree with this.

[BkWurm1]

Well bringing back a supporting character I actually like is probably a good step in fixing the newb problem.

[tennisgurl]

Wait, what does that mean for Roy/Thea?!?!

Whatever, a cast member I actually like returning! Yea! 

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

Well bringing back a supporting character I actually like is probably a good step in fixing the newb problem.

That's NOOB. NOOB.

5 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Wait, what does that mean for Roy/Thea?!?!

Whatever, a cast member I actually like returning! Yea! 

Maybe she'll be "off-screen?"

[statsgirl]

If Roy comes back, can we get rid of Rene, Curtis and Dinah?

[shantown]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

If Roy comes back, can we get rid of Rene, Curtis and Dinah?

PLEASE! 
I'm a new watcher of this show (started with Crossover on Earth X since I was already watching Flash and Supergirl) and in under half a season they have annoyed me to the point of wanting to drop this show from my DVR.

[tv echo]

Brothers in Arms - Arrow Music Notes 6x17
April 11, 2018
https://austencello.tumblr.com/post/172848694979/brothers-in-arms-arrow-music-notes-6x17

Quote

The episode opens with the police force and the Green Arrow arresting Anatoly.  The cimbalom (an eastern European hammered dulcimer) is an instrument used for Anatoly and Russia since 2x06 “Optimist”.  It is heard twice in this episode: when Anatoly is caught and arrested and as he speaks in the interrogation room with Oliver.  The three note motif as he talks to Oliver is first heard in the flashbacks of 5x02 when they meet again in Russia.
*  *  *
“Trust and Verify” is also the theme that plays during their fight beginning with the brass chords as Diggle mentions that his frustration is not over the hood but with the man underneath the hood. This is an extremely important theme regarding trust for John Diggle and Oliver stemming back from 1x11 when they argued over Ted Gaynor being on the list.  It appears in moments of frustration and trust when they are at odds but believe they each made the right decision, whether it is with Ted Gaynor, Diggle spying on Moira (1x13), and over Deadshot (1x16 and 1x20) which led to Diggle leaving the team for the first time. It also appears in moments of trust when Oliver opens up about the Island in 2x05 and when Diggle gets the crossbow as the new Green Arrow in 6x03.  It also appears in a scene with Diggle and Lyla (1x20), who is upset to hear that John used ARGUS info regarding Deadshot for his own “blood feud” and between Oliver and Felicity in 5x20 when Felicity is upset that Oliver did not back her play regarding Helix.  In 1x11, it was their first true testing of partners as Oliver had faith in his father and Diggle had faith in his former commanding officer which were at odds with each other.  As time went on, the bonds of faith and trust grew which also means they now have the words to deeply injure.  The music grows quieter to bring emotional weight as they bring up the deepest wounds - Oliver’s family with William and Diggle’s guilt over his brother and then grows again once they start punching each other.  When the fighting continues after the break, “On the Line” (5x02) plays.  This is great fighting music and was used when Oliver was training the new recruits and knocking them all out.  Now it is used for his most trusted friend and ally on the team. (Excuse me while I go cry)
*  *  *
At the end, Oliver and Felicity are the only ones left on the team.  Felicity reminds Oliver that she will always be there for him as the first two notes of the Olicity theme “The one I love” (2x23) are played in the cellos.  A brief musical reminder of their love and commitment. 
*  *  *
- I think I have figured out Diaz’s theme but I am going to wait until 6x19 to make sure.  It is super subtle which is unusual for the Big Bad of the Season. I guess we shall see how it all turns out!

Edited April 12, 2018 by tv echo

[tv echo]

EW reviewer gave 618 a grade of B-...

Arrow recap: 'Fundamentals'
CHANCELLOR AGARD April 12, 2018 AT 10:15 PM EDT
http://ew.com/recap/arrow-season-6-episode-18/

Quote

Arrow‘s very weird season 6 continued to be quite weird in this week. Even though “Fundamentals” was a rehash of several things the show has done before (and better), I was enjoying it for most of its runtime. But then, it ended on a very frustrating note that basically rejects a lot of Oliver’s development for the past few seasons.

I was hooked into “Fundamentals” from the moment it began. The hour, which was directed by Ben Bray, opens with a long take fight sequence that follows Oliver, sporting his season 1 costume, as he launches a solo assault on the precinct. His target: Diaz, who is hiding behind a door surrounded by an army of cops with their guns at the ready. It’s clear that this is a flash-forward, and while I tend to get annoyed with these because usually I do think they’re overused, I thought this one was quite effective in setting up the tension for the episode.
*  *  *
And here’s where the episode takes a turn, because Oliver starts hallucinating, even though it takes him a while to realize it. Collins dosed him with Vertigo, which is forcing him to revisit some of his worst fears. First, he hallucinates Felicity asking for a separation, and then he has an imaginary brawl with Adrian Chase, who spends the rest of the episode taunting Oliver about how he has strayed from his original mission. Oliver has a bunch of other upsetting visions (hello dead Laurel and injured Rene). All of this feels like a repeat of the fantastic “Three Ghosts” (and I’m sure other episodes in seasons 4 and 5, to be honest), but it initially works because of Stephen Amell’s unsettling performance. Oliver eventually figures out he’s been dosed, but that doesn’t stop him from talking to the imaginary Adrian Chase.
*  *  *
After this Vertigo trip, Oliver declares he found some clarity and realized that he needs to take things back to basics and work on his own. In other words, he wants to throw all of the character development he’s undergone for the past six seasons out the window. Wasn’t there an episode in season 4 that was all about how his teammates make him stronger? Isn’t that how he even came close to surviving Adrian Chase’s attack on his life? I feel like the show is taking an unnecessary step back. Also, Oliver is supposed to be smarter than this. He should know this is the last thing he should be doing! UGH! This show sometimes!

Edited April 13, 2018 by tv echo