20/20 - General Discussion

[biakbiak]

5 minutes ago, Mrs. Hanson said:

and no medical professional of any kind

Well Bill Frist was a heart and lung transplant surgeon before he became a Senator. When he was in medical school he would adopt cats from shelters and then kill them to perform experiments.

[walnutqueen]

11 minutes ago, biakbiak said:

Well Bill Frist was a heart and lung transplant surgeon before he became a Senator. When he was in medical school he would adopt cats from shelters and then kill them to perform experiments.

I did not want to know that.  Now I retroactively HATE him.

[biakbiak]

10 minutes ago, walnutqueen said:

I did not want to know that.  Now I retroactively HATE him.

I have hated him for years! Ever since he got involved with the Teeey Schavio case which was when I first heard of him.

[Mrs. Hanson]

23 minutes ago, biakbiak said:

Well Bill Frist was a heart and lung transplant surgeon before he became a Senator. When he was in medical school he would adopt cats from shelters and then kill them to perform experiments.

@biakbiak, I started to read your response that she did, indeed, have a medical professional on the board and thought, "Good!" then I kept reading and thought "Burn In Hell!!"

[annzeepark914]

Whenever I pass our local shelter or Petsmart, I always say:  let them go to safe, loving, forever homes, bless their hearts. Bill Frist deserves the worst.

[JudyObscure]

14 hours ago, walnutqueen said:

If so, my question is why this would only manifest in the case of a "doe-eyed attractive young ingenue".  Because there are plenty of young men out there with magical ideas, and these horny old farts never fell for THEIR B.S.

Yes, in his prime, my father had an IQ over 150  and a good business of his own.  When he was a lonely 86 year-old with cognitive decline he fell for a young, round eyed, blonde and made all sorts of dumb decisions just to be near her (sold his quality house and bought a ticky--tacky one, asking the realtor only one question, "How close is it to "her" street?")  I was with him rolling my eyes. The blonde liked and  encouraged him and part of me was glad he was happy and had a renewed interest in life.  At least they didn't hurt anyone.

I don't get HBO so I watched everything on you-tube about her.  One thing I don't get is, even if it was all true, why did everyone keep raving about how this was going to change the world and no one would die ... too soon?  Sure it would be a good diagnostic tool and save some time, but this was not a cure for even one disease.   It could actually do harm be diagnosing things that were just dormant, for instance I fail TB skin tests because I was exposed to it at one time, but it's not "active," and I don't want some doctor running wild treating me for TB with mega doses of colon ruining antibiotics.

I remember seeing her on TV during her good years and even then I laughed when she spoke.  She always sounds to me like a fourteen year old boy trying to sound manly.

[Melina22]

2 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Sure it would be a good diagnostic tool and save some time, but this was not a cure for even one disease.   

Wow, I can't believe I didn't pick up on this during the show. You're so right! All she was offering at best was just another type of blood test. 

Look at that. I think she hypnotized me as well. 

[OpalNightstream]

I wish they would’ve stopped focusing on the angle of her being “attractive” because I found her to be awkward and kind of odd looking. Yes she was young, but attractive??? And I thought she had crazy eyes as opposed to doe-like. 

The can’t believe she was able to con everyone. I know the company was secretive but how was NO ONE catching on to the fact that it simply wasn’t feasible? These are all highly educated people. Also what was the the pitch the Walgreens? Install a kiosk for out product which doesn’t exist yet? Wouldnt Walgreens want at the very least a working prototype?

[Mrs. Hanson]

18 hours ago, annzeepark914 said:

Whenever I pass our local shelter or Petsmart, I always say:  let them go to safe, loving, forever homes, bless their hearts. Bill Frist deserves the worst.

I used to volunteer at an animal shelter and if some dude kept coming and adopting cats over and over it would have sounded bells off!!  I wonder if he went to multiple shelters?  Why I am thinking of such sad stuff?

8 hours ago, OpalNightstream said:

I wish they would’ve stopped focusing on the angle of her being “attractive” because I found her to be awkward and kind of odd looking. Yes she was young, but attractive??? And I thought she had crazy eyes as opposed to doe-like. 

The can’t believe she was able to con everyone. I know the company was secretive but how was NO ONE catching on to the fact that it simply wasn’t feasible? These are all highly educated people. Also what was the the pitch the Walgreens? Install a kiosk for out product which doesn’t exist yet? Wouldnt Walgreens want at the very least a working prototype?

Because society plays up on a woman's looks waaaaay more than men's looks, in my humble little opinion.

[SunnyBeBe]

The large vacant eyes that the show showed at times, were reminiscent  of another set of disturbing eyes.

https://www.google.com/search?q=life+magazine+charles+manson&rlz=1C1CAFA_enUS634US634&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=uea80rAPm5QvrM%3A%2CFqPJbHnSIKiHtM%2C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kQ8_OgaCjbsyJm0hi9YGVqEPaNj0Q&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiN1dvs2IzhAhVmh-AKHWbrBScQ9QEwA3oECAMQCg#imgrc=uea80rAPm5QvrM:

Holmes:

https://www.google.com/search?q=elizabeth+holmes+eyes&rlz=1C1CAFA_enUS634US634&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=Z-7w8TqdJeaJZM%3A%2CjWGSTbPQmgc3-M%2C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kQ_vzYx-c9Ptih4NvNSMSdkXa5lPw&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjNuL7L2YzhAhXxc98KHSvqB_sQ9QEwA3oECAYQBA#imgrc=Z-7w8TqdJeaJZM:

Both are said to have been mesmerizing. I'm not implying that she is a killer, but, I'm noting the similarity in their desire to lead smart people astray.  

Edited March 18, 2019 by SunnyBeBe

[Showthyme]

On 3/16/2019 at 11:26 AM, SunnyBeBe said:

They were charged civilly and that was disposed of. A real joke with a $500,000. fine. Please.  But, there were also FEDERAL CRIMINAL charges against both of them.  

And Shultz's grandfather.....oh my....he should be ashamed.  

What they did was criminal and I hope that they get the maximum. The civil charges are a joke but make sense because investors need to do their own due diligence. There were no esteemed doctors on her board or within a country mile of her. It is shocking that they got as far as they did with Walgreens. It really makes me wonder about Walgreens. She had no CFO for many years and no one questioned it. The red flags were not only there but were waving in their faces. 

Tyler Shultz has amazing character. 

[biakbiak]

2 hours ago, Mrs. Hanson said:

wonder if he went to multiple shelters?  Why I am thinking of such sad stuff?

Yes he went to multiple shelters.

If you liked Tyler in this you should read the book he did a lot more than was shown. This really only scratched the surface there could be a Ken Burns length documentary on it and still miss things.

[Emmeline]

13 hours ago, OpalNightstream said:

I wish they would’ve stopped focusing on the angle of her being “attractive” because I found her to be awkward and kind of odd looking. Yes she was young, but attractive??? And I thought she had crazy eyes as opposed to doe like.

I agree with you about her looks.  Yes, she’s young, blond, and has blue eyes, but also awkward and disheveled.  She needed a physiatrist, stylist, hairdresser and perhaps an endocrinologist for a potential thyroid condition for those bulging eyes.

[Whimsy]

12 hours ago, Emmeline said:

I agree with you about her looks.  Yes, she’s young, blond, and has blue eyes, but also awkward and disheveled.  She needed a physiatrist, stylist, hairdresser and perhaps an endocrinologist for a potential thyroid condition for those bulging eyes.

I agree.  When they were showing snippets of her tv interviews I kept thinking to myself that she could of at LEAST run a brush through her hair. 

[biakbiak]

4 hours ago, Whimsy said:

I agree.  When they were showing snippets of her tv interviews I kept thinking to myself that she could of at LEAST run a brush through her hair. 

Also, I know a lot of her money was not real and just based on the valuation of her company but she could definitely gotten a better colorist!

[hoosiermom]

I watched the documentary on her on HBO last night. Had a little more insight as to what she was all about. Some even hinted at mental illness.

[Melina22]

20 minutes ago, hoosiermom said:

watched the documentary on her on HBO last night. Had a little more insight as to what she was all about. Some even hinted at mental illness.

We're discussing it in a different thread. Just look under HBO documentaries. (Apologies if you already know this). 

[hoosiermom]

35 minutes ago, Melina22 said:

We're discussing it in a different thread. Just look under HBO documentaries. (Apologies if you already know this). 

Thank you so much! Immediately went to that forum. Can’t get enough of this story.

[EtheltoTillie]

I watched both too and felt it was worthwhile. Each provided different insights.  There’s still no understanding Holmes. Some kind of narcissistic sociopath. 

[EtheltoTillie]

Did anyone watch the story about dr sonnier’s murder by the jealous ex boyfriend of Sonnier’s girlfriend. Sad. Also crazy that his ex wife was killed in a murder suicide with her new husband. 

[blondiec0332]

On 3/17/2019 at 10:59 AM, Tabbygirl521 said:

I am eager to listen to the podcast and read as much as I can, too. Really curious about how she assembled that astonishing board of directors. 

Read the book Bad Blood.  It is excellent.  Really goes into detail of how all this happened.

On 3/17/2019 at 4:43 PM, Mrs. Hanson said:

And all men!!  No women.....hmmm.....and no medical professional of any kind.  The female doctor who told her it was not going to work was NOT buying into her at all.   

When I first heard of this a couple years i go I immediately thought there is no fucking way that works.  Seems a lot of men thought the pretty face and charm overrode reality.

[Tabbygirl521]

4 hours ago, blondiec0332 said:

Read the book Bad Blood.  It is excellent.  Really goes into detail of how all this happened.

When I first heard of this a couple years i go I immediately thought there is no fucking way that works.  Seems a lot of men thought the pretty face and charm overrode reality.

I’ve got a hold on”Bad Blood” at my local library. There’s a large waiting list! This is such a fascinating story. 

[biakbiak]

3 hours ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

I’ve got a hold on”Bad Blood” at my local library. There’s a large waiting list! This is such a fascinating story. 

It’s worth the wait, it reads like a thriller. Maybe it won’t take that long because everyone I know read it in 2 or 3 days becuase we couldn’t put it down!

[Melina22]

I just finished watching the Diane Downs episode. It really took me back to reading Small Sacrifices and watching the Farrah Fawcett movie so long ago. It's unusual to get a follow-up on a crime that happened so long ago. That I heard about at the time, I mean. Now I feel old. 

I believe them when they say she had 3 separate personality disorders. What a terrifying woman. The footage of her laughing while reenacting the supposed murder scene almost defies belief. Judging by the footage of her at her parole hearing she's as narcissistic and defiant as ever. 

It was very interesting to get some information on the surviving children. I felt sad that Becky came out of it without a biological father or any new siblings. I got the sense she might be estranged from her family as well, but I'm not certain. 

Wow, I really don't like Nancy Grace, even when I agree with her. She always sets my teeth on edge. 

[Tabbygirl521]

3 hours ago, Melina22 said:

I just finished watching the Diane Downs episode. It really took me back to reading Small Sacrifices and watching the Farrah Fawcett movie so long ago. It's unusual to get a follow-up on a crime that happened so long ago. That I heard about at the time, I mean. Now I feel old. 

I believe them when they say she had 3 separate personality disorders. What a terrifying woman. The footage of her laughing while reenacting the supposed murder scene almost defies belief. Judging by the footage of her at her parole hearing she's as narcissistic and defiant as ever. 

It was very interesting to get some information on the surviving children. I felt sad that Becky came out of it without a biological father or any new siblings. I got the sense she might be estranged from her family as well, but I'm not certain. 

Wow, I really don't like Nancy Grace, even when I agree with her. She always sets my teeth on edge. 

I just watched it, too, and had the same reaction about being old! I must have read Small Sacrifices 20 times (to the point that a lot of the investigstors’ and prosecutors’ names seemed really familiar) but had never actually seen a lot of footage of her crazy interviews and statements. What a freak. It’s all just as morbidly fascinating as ever. 

I felt it was sad that Becky wasn’t able to know Danny and Christie when she was a teenager wondering who she was destined to be. Perhaps she could have seen how well they were doing. Probably the Hugis sheltered them (understandably) and they certainly have the right to remain private, but it’s too bad in a lot of ways, I think. Very happy that she seems to be doing well now. 

[Cherrio]

I watched the Downs segment too.

I was appalled that Ann Rule told Rebecca Babcock that she had met her biological father but would not tell her who he is.

If Rule had no intention of sharing that information she should of kept her mouth shut.   

Now, of course Rebecca can find out thru one of the DNA testing sources.

[Melina22]

4 minutes ago, Cherrio said:

I was appalled that Ann Rule told Rebecca Babcock that she had met her biological father but would not tell her who he is.

I know what you mean. That was confusing. But then again, the father knew he was the father and chose not to come forward. In the end, maybe he was the one who wanted his information kept secret. I can think of several reasons why he might have chosen to do this. 

[Cherrio]

25 minutes ago, Melina22 said:

I know what you mean. That was confusing. But then again, the father knew he was the father and chose not to come forward. In the end, maybe he was the one who wanted his information kept secret. I can think of several reasons why he might have chosen to do this. 

The bio father does have the right to remain unknown, but it should of been done off camera.  It is hard enough to digest that kind of news in private.   

My problem is only with Ann Rule. I would respect the bio fathers decision either way it went. The more I think about it, the more I don't even believe that Ann Rule actually knew who he was, let alone met him.  I think she would be the last person he would ever meet with.   It could be that Diane had several one night stands to insure she got pregnant and she could never be sure who the father was.

[Melina22]

15 minutes ago, Cherrio said:

My problem is only with Ann Rule. I would respect the bio fathers decision either way it went. The more I think about it, the more I don't even believe that Ann Rule actually knew who he was, let alone met him.  I think she would be the last person he would ever meet with.   It could be that Diane had several one night stands to insure she got pregnant and she could never be sure who the father was

Interesting. It never occurred to me to question either Ann's or Diane's account, but if watching these shows has taught me anything, it's that you never really know what people might do, including lie when you least expect it. (Well, that applies to Ann. I think everyone expected Diane to lie approximately 90% of the time. She seriously was one of the scariest women I've ever seen interviewed.) 

[Tabbygirl521]

The father was described in some detail in Small Sacrifices, just to give an overall picture of how Diane Met and seduced him, I guess. I don’t recall if Rule used a pseudonym. But I believe she knows who he is. 

[Cherrio]

Diane got around alot and add in pathological lying, its going to stay a toss up for me.

With the three original children, only two were Steve Downs, little Danny was another random mans.

Iirc, Steven did not want another child, so Diane just found another to get pregnant again. I think he might of had a vasectomy.

Edited March 23, 2019 by Cherrio
added

[partofme]

I watch a lot of true crime and I'd never heard of this case before.  

[Melina22]

2 minutes ago, partofme said:

I watch a lot of true crime and I'd never heard of this case before.  

It got so much attention decades ago, with the reporting, book and TV movie, that I think it was considered old news for awhile. I was actually shocked to realize Diane was still alive! 

[partofme]

4 minutes ago, Melina22 said:

It got so much attention decades ago, with the reporting, book and TV movie, that I think it was considered old news for awhile. I was actually shocked to realize Diane was still alive! 

I was nine or ten when the murders happened which may be why I don't remember it?   I've never seen  the movie.   I remember murders from a few years later very well.  

I also wondered if Becky was estranged from her adopted parents, it may have just been the way they described her being a single parent.  

[Cherrio]

23 minutes ago, partofme said:

also wondered if Becky was estranged from her adopted parents, it may have just been the way they described her being a single parent.

When Becky first went public with an article and tv she and her mother explained that she was asked to leave her parents home for at least awhile due to her behavior.    Iirc, they also both said they were working to mend things at the time. This was at least 4 years ago so I hope they are good now.  Her son seems to be a nice young man.

[MerBearHou]

Re Elizabeth Holmes:  she and her family lived next door to us when she was in her teens till she went to Stanford.  We knew her, her brother and parents pretty well.  There was zero hint in her of what was to come.  Elizabeth was very sweet, bright and feminine (zero black turtlenecks!) and no, her voice wasn’t deep whatsoever.  We liked the Holmes very much though Chris, the dad, was super intense.  My kids thought it was so wacky that Elizabeth and her brother had a Mandarin tutor on the weekends but my husband and I knew it was good idea.  We were so surprised and delighted for Elizabeth when her idea was taking off and she was considered uber-successful, then we were stunned to see the fraud, collapse, paranoia and lying.  Of course, our entire family has read Bad Blood and are just sickened.  

[freeser]

On 3/22/2019 at 10:10 PM, Melina22 said:

Wow, I really don't like Nancy Grace, even when I agree with her. She always sets my teeth on edge. 

I also agreed with most of what Nancy said.  But what sets my teeth on edge with her is that no matter what she says, her facial expression always looks like she is smelling a pile of rotting garbage.  Her nose is always crinkled up with a distasteful kind of sneer.  She has always looked like that.  

I did not get to watch every minute of the Diane Downs program.  For someone who did or who just knows more about this case, I have a question.  After she was found guilty, why didn't her ex husband get custody of the 2 remaining children?  I know there was some question about the paternity of the boy, but I also read that he accepted him as his own (?).  Did the ex try to get the kids back?  Did Diane have parents or siblings who tried to gain custody?  It seems like the children did have a good life with the prosecutor who adopted them, but I wonder what the circumstances were that they were available for adoption when there were family members around.  

[Melina22]

12 minutes ago, freeser said:

After she was found guilty, why didn't her ex husband get custody of the 2 remaining children?  I

That's a really good question. Maybe he didn't feel up to caring for special needs children? I feel like I should know the answer after reading the book and seeing the movie but I don't. 

[Cherrio]

I can dust off my copy of the book and see if there is an answer about the children.

I do remember that Fred Hugi the prosecutor (who adopted them) sat by the little girls bedside a lot to protect her. Her stats would spike any time Diane came in the room. She had had a stroke and could not speak for a long time.

I know they went into foster care where they would be safe and never asked about the shooting.

I also seem to remember that Diane somehow got to her daughter after she got out of the hospital and upset her.   I think there was a court hearing to protect the children and Diane lost.

The whole family seemed crazy to me, as they all stood behind Diane and had all sorts of conspiracy theories. I think Diane also at some point accused her father of some kind of abuse when she was a child.

[Cherrio]

From just skimming the book, it says that Fred Hugi moved to get a protective order against Diane because she was upsetting the children and making threats. One to remove them from the hospital and refusing treatment when they needed it.

Her parents are not mentioned, but were probably never considered because they were staunchly behind Diane.

All the medical personnel, guards and others reported constantly seeing Diane whispering to both children and at one point little Danny said he was never to talk about who shot him. He said "not supposed to tell".

[Melina22]

So no info about their father? 

[SunnyBeBe]

16 hours ago, MerBearHou said:

Re Elizabeth Holmes:  she and her family lived next door to us when she was in her teens till she went to Stanford.  We knew her, her brother and parents pretty well.  There was zero hint in her of what was to come.  Elizabeth was very sweet, bright and feminine (zero black turtlenecks!) and no, her voice wasn’t deep whatsoever.  We liked the Holmes very much though Chris, the dad, was super intense.  My kids thought it was so wacky that Elizabeth and her brother had a Mandarin tutor on the weekends but my husband and I knew it was good idea.  We were so surprised and delighted for Elizabeth when her idea was taking off and she was considered uber-successful, then we were stunned to see the fraud, collapse, paranoia and lying.  Of course, our entire family has read Bad Blood and are just sickened.  

That is so wild!  I suppose it goes to show that you never really know people.  I think that often people fool those around them who are very close, like family and close friends.  People with disturbing capabilities can come from home with loving and kind parents.  You just never know. 

Ref. Diane Downs case.  It's been so long since I read Small Sacrifices and watched the movie, that I can't recall the details about the older children's father.  It seems like he didn't live nearby.  Sorry. If anyone finds out , I hope they post it though. 

[eel2178]

On ‎3‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 12:32 PM, Cherrio said:

On ‎3‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 12:32 PM, Cherrio said:

With the three original children, only two were Steve Downs, little Danny was another random mans.

There is also another child that was never mentioned on 20/20. After Diane had Danny, she served as a surrogate. I don't remember if she was impregnated with the husband's sperm, or if it was from in vitro with both the husband's sperm and the wife's egg.

Edited March 25, 2019 by eel2178

[Melina22]

7 minutes ago, eel2178 said:

mentioned on 20/20. After Diane had Danny, she served as a surrogate. I don't remember if she was impregnated with the husband's sperm, or if it was from in vitro with both the husband's sperm and the wife's egg.

You're absolutely right! I'd forgotten till I read this just now. Yikes. This should have been a 2 hour episode. 

ETA Or was it 2 hours? I've literally forgotten already. Let's just say it should have been longer than it was to do justice to all the crazy. 😁

Edited March 25, 2019 by Melina22

[carrps]

On 3/15/2019 at 4:50 AM, Whimsy said:

My dog looks EXACTLY like the yellow lab with the lady with the short grey hair.  She's a dudley lab just like that one.  And yeah, I suspect that's exactly how she would act.  

There was a dachshund who defended his owner and prevented her from getting hurt (bought time for help to arrive), but he was killed by the intruder. Don't underestimate a dog by its size! As the AKC breed description says dachshunds are brave to the point of rashness.

[mamadrama]

On 3/11/2019 at 6:12 AM, Tdoc72 said:

I wondered that too. When the police knocked on the door, they said the dog was barking. But when the officer was talking to the dog in the crate (shown on bodycam), the dog was sitting there quietly and didn’t even seem interested in the treat the officer gave him. So maybe he’s just a super chill dog not bothered by much? 

I love my dog, but a watchdog he is not. If someone came in and started whacking me with an ax, my dog would happily wag his tail and roll over for a belly rub. 

[mamadrama]

On 3/24/2019 at 1:12 PM, freeser said:

I also agreed with most of what Nancy said.  But what sets my teeth on edge with her is that no matter what she says, her facial expression always looks like she is smelling a pile of rotting garbage.  Her nose is always crinkled up with a distasteful kind of sneer.  She has always looked like that.  

I did not get to watch every minute of the Diane Downs program.  For someone who did or who just knows more about this case, I have a question.  After she was found guilty, why didn't her ex husband get custody of the 2 remaining children?  I know there was some question about the paternity of the boy, but I also read that he accepted him as his own (?).  Did the ex try to get the kids back?  Did Diane have parents or siblings who tried to gain custody?  It seems like the children did have a good life with the prosecutor who adopted them, but I wonder what the circumstances were that they were available for adoption when there were family members around.  

I know I've shared this before but...3 years ago we went down to our vacation house on a Georgian island. Took my daughter out for ice cream one night and the place was packed. We wound up sharing our little sofa with another family (mother, grandmother, 2 children). My daughter really took to the mother and then started playing video games with the son. We were there for about an hour. I chatted with the two adults. The mother was super friendly, sunburned, windblown, and funny. The nicest people we met all summer. She loved my daughter but, honestly, she took to every kid who walked through the door. When we got ready to leave, my daughter accidentally dropped her cup on the floor and melted ice cream went everywhere. The other mother was down on her knees cleaning it up before I could even react. I was all the way back to our house before I realized I'd just spent an hour with Nancy Grace and her family. Non-TV personality is a complete 180 from on-screen. 

The Diane Downs case continues to bother me. When she's doing the interview and talks about how easy children are to conceive, it's spine chilling. She's basically saying that she can replace her dead child because it's easy enough to have more. And it's all about her and what her kids can offer. The woman is nuts. 

[Melina22]

I'm in shock! Now I feel guilty for being so mean and judgy about Nancy Grace. Maybe it's more her face and voice I don't enjoy, and she isn't the monster I imagined her to be. People are so unknowable! 

That said, chilling was definitely the word for Diane Downs, and that's NOT just going by her face and voice, but her actions as well. 

[mamadrama]

1 minute ago, Melina22 said:

I'm in shock! Now I feel guilty for being so mean and judgy about Nancy Grace. Maybe it's more her face and voice I don't enjoy, and she isn't the monster I imagined her to be. People are so unknowable! 

That said, chilling was definitely the word for Diane Downs, and that's NOT just going by her face and voice, but her actions as well. 

No, I totally get it. And I'm like that other poster-even when I agree with her, I still have trouble liking her because she's just so off putting. The whole time I was sitting there I kept thinking she looked familiar, but I see famous people in non-famous people all the damn time so I second-guessed myself. Was literally in our driveway when it hit me. I ran in and got on FB and, sure enough, NG was posting vacation pictures of the island. I posted about the experience on FB and my friends were commenting and going, "Oh, I hate her" "she's awful", etc. The whole thing was surreal and I actually felt bad for her. In real life, she just came across as a tired mother who eats off her lipstick and just wanted some sprinkles on her frozen yogurt. 

I almost hate to call Diane Downs "crazy" or a "nut" because I feel like it's offensive to the other crazy nuts I know. DD is like on a whole other playing field. 

[Melina22]

8 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

I almost hate to call Diane Downs "crazy" or a "nut" because I feel like it's offensive to the other crazy nuts I know. DD is like on a whole other playing field. 

I absolutely agree. In all my years of reading about and watching true crime she's probably the most cold-blooded and narcissistic woman I've heard of. To be able to kill your own children without remorse or any emotion, really, is thankfully extremely rare. The weirdest part is that she wasn't an angry murderer, or a robot. She was smiley and giggly and flirty. 

Remember the scene where she says that the day of the murder was terrible, because afterwards she couldn't tie her own shoes for a month? Then she laughs. Aaaagh!