S02.E13: We Have Manners. We're Polite.

[TeeVee329]

Can I say that one of the little things I enjoyed about this season was the little background arc of Ruiz and her very terse boyfriend/husband and how, in the finale, he was finally all chatty with her and the baby?  Very cute.

Edited June 9, 2014 by TeeVee329

[annlaw78]

I, too, find the Daya-Bennett stuff tiresome, because it makes both of the characters, who I think we're supposed to like (and I generally did, in the beginning) stupid.  There's a reason why it's been codified that inmate-CO sex is always non-consensual, and Bennett should know that.  If he truly "loved" Daya, he'd wait and see how things shake out between them after she's released.  Otherwise, he's Mendez without the mustache and sadism.  And, similarly, how does it help Daya or her child for Bennett to become a convicted felon?  Wouldn't it be much better, practically speaking, for him to keep his legit, government job with benefits, and try to reconstitute a family when she's out?

 

Poussey became one of my favorite characters this season.  Great stuff for her (and from the actress).  I'm disappointed that they made Suzanne go all prison-gang-thug this season.  I get they're going for her being easily manipulated by the stronger, maternal personality of Vee, but Suzanne's epiphany last season about how Piper is mean, and not worth Suzanne's affections is sort of undercut by Suzanne's going on to bully everyone this season. 

Edited June 9, 2014 by annlaw78

[Skittl1321]

 

And, similarly, how does it help Daya or her child for Bennett to become a convicted felon?

 

I think Daya thinks that it is unmanly that Bennett  won't stand up and claim his baby.

They are clearly idiots.

[annlaw78]

 

I think Daya thinks that it is unmanly that Bennett  won't stand up and claim his baby.

They are clearly idiots.

Ha!  Yes, I guess it's unmanly (though making himself unemployed and frankly unemployable in the future would make him a terrible "provider.").  But she and her mother are the ones who cooked up the stupid framing Mendez/false paternity story, without consulting Bennett. 

 

Also, I hate Fig and her whole "come on honey, between us girls, it wasn't 'rape' rape, was it?"  Again, like Bennett, she has to know why those laws were passed, and understand the state of duress the inmates live are under.  Ugh.

[Kitkat52]

Guess I can make up my sleep tonight. :)

I held off until Saturday evening to watch the second season. I knew I would be sorry if I started. It was all worth it. I also held off reading any comments or blogs; lest I get spoiled. I did the same for Breaking Bad.

I loved everything about this season. The Vee storyline was both fun and frightening to watch. Great choice of music for her demise - "Don't Fear the Reaper".

My favorite characters were Nicky, Morello, Pousey and of course, Miss Rosa. From Saturday evening to 2:00 am Monday morning - heaven.

[ChocButterfly]

I thought it was strange that the show didn't make an effort to explain Vee's motivations better. We only ever see her as manipulative and evil.

 

But they did explain it, she wanted to control the prison. I know that doesn't make much sense to us, but that's how psychopaths operate. They'll do anything to get what they want, and she wanted power.

 

Vee was a textbook psychopath. There really was nothing more to her. That's the problem with psychopaths as characters, there really isn't much to them once you scratch the surface. Psychopaths don't have motivations beyond wanting to exert power over others.

Exactly. When I first saw Vee, I was sure she was going to be evil, but then they started presenting all these nice things she did for Taystee and the guy. I thought that maybe she had real love for them, she seemed so nice! But the more I saw of the present Vee, the more I was convinced it was just an act. You'd think it doesn't make sense for someone to pretend all the time just to manipulate people, but that's what psychopaths do, they are wonderful at faking emotions and they can read people quite well. What I don't understand is why on earth did Red hug the woman when she had almost killed her!!

 

Can I say that one of the little things I enjoyed about this season was the little background arc of Ruiz and her very terse boyfriend/husband and how, in the finale, he was finally all chatty with her and the baby?  Very cute.

Oh, I loved that part as well!!

 

I'm disappointed that they made Suzanne go all prison-gang-thug this season.  I get they're going for her being easily manipulated by the stronger, maternal personality of Vee, but Suzanne's epiphany last season about how Piper is mean, and not worth Suzanne's affections is sort of undercut by Suzanne's going on to bully everyone this season.

Word!! Suzanne was my favorite character but I hated her this season! I don't care she was being manipulated, she should have shown some compassion for others and at least show some remorse afterwards about beating the crap out of Poussey. But she didn't even care, not even when Poussey was crying on the floor, not a fickle of guilt or empathy.

[Skittl1321]

 

But they did explain it, she wanted to control the prison.

Well, that doesn't explain her behavior outside of prison.

 

Need for control, sure- but we never saw the why.  How did she become the drug dealer she was? I mean, the way she killed RJ- went over and seduced him and then called out a hit? That's insane!  That had nothing to do with wanting to control the prison.  That was just not wanting competition in her business. (I kinda don't get what her role was- I don't know enough about how drug dealing works- it seemed she was a middle man, so someone was brains above her; but at other times she was presented like it was her operation totally.) But seducing him first? That is a whole different level from just killing him.  I really felt like we needed back story.

 

Not to mention, if she was such a brilliant controller who kept her hands clean- how did she get sent to prison? What did she get caught doing? This time, and last time.

 

 

not a fickle of guilt or empathy.

She's mentally ill.  After all she has done, I really don't understand how they keep her in minimum security; but I don't think she can be judged on the same standard as someone who knows what they are doing.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Skittl1321

[egavasc]

I guess I'm just disappointed that Vee is merely a psychopath, particularly since the early episodes present her as someone capable of caring for others (her makeshift family with RJ and Taystee and what seemed like potential friendship with Red). This show works so hard to make us understand these characters and how they ended up in this place. It doesn't ask you to sympathize with all of the characters. Several can be completely noxious. But one of the major themes is that these all are people who are complicated and rich. Even Fig (who is possibly the worst) has a compelling story. She also wants power and embezzles to support her husband's political dreams. So having a character that is evil for evil's sake in a world full of more developed people is disappointing.

[90PercentGravity]

But Vee didn't care about them. She was giving them what they wanted (acceptance) so that she could manipulate and control them. When they were no longer useful to her, she dropped them. She did it when Taystee went to jail, she did it when RJ started pulling away, she did it when she needed someone to take the fall for her. She did it without remorse, because she had no real empathy. It was all for show.

[egavasc]

Right. She didn't and doesn't care about anyone. But in the early flashbacks it seems like she might. Our introduction to her is as a creepy drug dealer who is grooming a child but who quickly becomes a maternal figure for the girl who never had a family. Sure we come to learn that that was all an act, but at least to me she didn't seem to be evil incarnate. She could have been another flawed person who made terrible choices in the search for power and control. Red is a flawed person who made terrible choices in a quest for power. We understand her. There's nothing to color our understanding of Vee other than evil. Evil makes good plot but uninteresting character.

[TeeVee329]

The more I think about it, the more I love Vee meeting her maker the way she did.  Not at the hands of one of her enemies or one of her former people, but by someone who she was needlessly an asshole to.  The whole sequence just tickles me and the choice of song was the cherry on top of it.

[Happy to be here]

I agree that there isn't a lot of motivation to escape minimum security prison, because these people know they have a sweet gig.  They'll either be out soon, or they'll be stuck for a long time in a much much better situation. How often do escapes actually work, in that they never get picked up again? Really really bad risk.

 

 

When Nicky found out about Christopher and that Morello went on her little adventure she chastised Morello and said that if she got caught her time would have been tripled. It is also a good bet she would have been sent to max.    So not really worth unless something major changes like half the prison wants you dead.  

 

Evil makes good plot but uninteresting character.

 

 

Oh I disagree.  Sometimes evil makes a fascinating character.  Not every character needs a sad backstory.  That actually gets boring after awhile.  Some people just do things because they can.    It is true to life so why not true to television as well?  Plus it adds an air of danger to the the show.  Red could be reasoned with.  So could the head of the Spanish crew (whose name escapes me) because both of these women cared about the people they looked after and had understandable wants and needs but not Vee.  Vee could not be reasoned with which is what made her so dangerous and so fascinating.  I think giving her a sad back story would have actually ruined it.   Sometimes there is no reason why.  

Edited June 10, 2014 by ChaosTheory

[saltylemon]

While I do think that perhaps this season was too neatly tied up in a bow when Rosa ran over Vee, it sure was satisfying so I won't complain about it. "Don't Fear the Reaper" was also an excellent song (even if it was too on the nose), and I loved the physical transition from old Rosa to young Rosa in the car as she gleefully sped away in the van. Overall, I think this was a good second season, and I loved getting to know different characters like Poussey.

[TeeVee329]

Considering she wasn't even on my radar going into this season (not because I didn't like her, but because she was a much smaller cog in things last year, she fell to the back of my mind), Rosa's arc throughout the season really resonated.  You felt joy for her when she was behind the wheel of that van, finally feeling like herself again.

Edited June 10, 2014 by TeeVee329

[Pixel]

I thought the guard singing to the nuns was absolutely brilliant. It was probably my favorite part of the finale.

 

Yeah, the Rosa running down Vee was a little too contrived, but that didn't stop me from enjoying the hell out of it.  And poor Caputo! It's only his second day, and he's got two escapees, a prisoner who's been framed for murder, and a guard who unburdened his soul over his love of an inmate.  Be careful what you wish for, Caputo!

 

Given that so many have binge watched, it seems like we need a "All of season two" thread.  

[Lambie]

I expected something horrible to happen the way Morello was driving. She was practically in the back seat with Rosa during her Toy Story recap. I kept expecting them to drive into a semi whenever she finally put her eyes back on the road. Eh, I guess it's irony that someone did get killed and Rosa had her eyes laser-beam focused on what was going on. 

 

Did they know they had a 3rd season when they wrote it? That ending could have been a series finale for me. 

[AlliMo]

I think my favorite part of this entire episode was Red and Sister Ingalls talking about their sex lives. I nearly spit out my tea when Sister Ingalls brought up the Jesus statue she would masturbate to.

[DangerousMinds]

I would say all of the above.  And I would also say that Piper will give a different reason depending on the situation or moment.  All of those reasons are so intertwined with one another that it's hard to separate them anyway.

Being in prison won't necessarily make Alex any safer. It seemed clear to me that Piper was just afraid to be alone. Alex had plans to leave the country.

[Grasonville]

Binge watcher here too.  I think Piper's motivation was safety for Alex.  However the parole violation (the handgun - with Davy Crockett as Parole Officer?) doesn't mean she will end up at the same prison as Piper.  And ANY prison is not safe for Alex - why wasn't she offered the witness protection program?

[Happy to be here]

Being in prison won't necessarily make Alex any safer. It seemed clear to me that Piper was just afraid to be alone. Alex had plans to leave the country.

 

 

But what's his face was a high level drug guy and Alex made her money as an importer.  I don't think either one of them are exactly friendless outside the US.  Alex disappearing from the cops is one thing.  Disappearing from an angry drug lord who really wants her dead is another.    But I agree prison won't make Alex safer unless he doesn't want her dead just unable to testify or whatever.  Either way he stays out of prison himself/  

[TeeVee329]

Binge watcher here too.  I think Piper's motivation was safety for Alex.  However the parole violation (the handgun - with Davy Crockett as Parole Officer?) doesn't mean she will end up at the same prison as Piper.

 

That might have been an out they left themselves in the storytelling in case Laura Prepon wasn't available for season three.

[vims]

Binge watcher here too.  I think Piper's motivation was safety for Alex.  However the parole violation (the handgun - with Davy Crockett as Parole Officer?) doesn't mean she will end up at the same prison as Piper.  And ANY prison is not safe for Alex - why wasn't she offered the witness protection program?

Piper is nearly as self-centered as she was at the beginning of the show. She may rationalize it as being about "saving" Alex but that's not all it is. She doesn't want to be alone and this is a way to get Alex back into her life. And let's face it, it's also a bit of payback. Those two take turns betraying each other.

[AncientNewbie]

Mendez could try to get visitation, but there's no guarantee where he'll be housed in the federal system. If the child is placed with Daya's family in NYC, the distance from his location and the relative poverty of her family are likely to work against him. If he's not incarcerated, his chances improve, but not dramatically as supervised visitation would still likely be required, which can be difficult to arrange. 

 

As for paternity testing, since I'm using my law degree today: it seems like Daya's mom likes the idea of keeping Pornstache on the hook for child support, so they wouldn't push it from their end, probably unless it was needed to keep the child. The test is, for lack of a better term, done in a vacuum. They don't take a cheek swab from the kid, sequence the DNA and run it against a federal database, which would tell us who the father is. A potential father and the kid are swabbed, their DNA compared, and the report comes back with a % chance of relation. That's where there's room for the writers to either go soap opera with something contrived or be really creative. If all the prison guards come from the local city and Bennett and Mendez are third cousins twice removed, maybe there's enough of a similarity to not rule him out. Most likely DNA would show he's not the father. 

 

Other thoughts: 

Piper not knowing she was going to trial and not knowing what was expected of her are big issues for me. It could be chalked up to Larry's father's incompetence but there's no way she should have sat down with the prosecutor without some deal being discussed. Before they even got to the point of moving her out of NY to IL, someone would have visited her in prison (and "no, AUSA, you can't talk to her because she's in SHU" would not fly) and discussed testifying. 

 

Figueroa's arc was too short. They didn't try to humanize her until the end and by then it was too late. Given her surname, there was ripe material for comparison with the inmates. I hope she isn't back, especially if she's ever indicted and imprisoned, because what made her special to the show was her graft and incompetence. Or back at all, because bringing her back as the new warden due to her commendations and such would create drama with Caputo, but I just don't care enough about her. 

 

Vee was a crazy person and I get where it seems they were going, but...I lost interest as she got more evil and more unhinged. I liked that she was a callback to what "prison" is in the public consciousness. Covert race war, drugs, violence...she was Oz and that was a good conflict in the softer world of OITNB and eventually everyone came to the realization that even success wasn't worth living in Oz. But the "I'm your friend and then I turn" got played out too soon. 

 

But I'm also not going to think she's dead until I see the funeral. I'm wondering if they'll do an "aging parent" storyline with Taystee where a paralyzed and "softened" Vee comes back eventually and Tasha is stuck, where may people are today, caring for someone who was just plain evil because it's a parent.

[Ceindreadh]

As soon as Rosa sped off in the van I was shouting at the screen, hoping she'd cross paths with Vee!

 

As for Alex and Piper, I don't know what Piper's motivations were, I guess we could argue that she only wanted the parole officer to actually check up on Alex a bit more often.  I mean, if Alex hadn't been holding a gun when he showed up, I'm sure she could have easily denied any plans to skip town and gotten away with it.

Then again, Piper knew about the gun, so maybe she figured that if the PO showed up and searched Alex's place it would be found.

 

Of course, given that calls are in theory monitored, more fool Alex for saying anything over the phone anyway.

[bravelittletoaster]

Piper is nearly as self-centered as she was at the beginning of the show. She may rationalize it as being about "saving" Alex but that's not all it is. She doesn't want to be alone and this is a way to get Alex back into her life. And let's face it, it's also a bit of payback. Those two take turns betraying each other.

Spy vs. spy with sex, as Nicky said.  I fucking love it.  And I damn sure hope there's more of it next year.  Thank you for clearing your schedule for me, Prepon.  In the midst of binging I had the bad habit of rewinding and rewatching all their scenes because there were too few of them.  I feel kind of bad for Biggs, because he and Laura did an interview last week where it was pointed out that the internet lost its collective shit when news broke that she "wasn't going to be in" season 2, and meanwhile he said people would cheer if that were true for Larry.  Which, well, I wouldn't miss him much, though he's useful as a foil at times.  Piper and Alex kind of seem all that much sexier when you have the blandness that is Larry to compare them to.  Then Laura answered a question about the departures from the book and she basically said, well, that happens with tv sometimes.  You might plan one thing but then you see which of your actors have chemistry together and which don't and you start writing to that.  Poor Jason. Heh.

 

 

 

I get they're going for her being easily manipulated by the stronger, maternal personality of Vee, but Suzanne's epiphany last season about how Piper is mean, and not worth Suzanne's affections is sort of undercut by Suzanne's going on to bully everyone this season.

Yeah, that's a really good point.  It doesn't mean for me that Suzanne was wrong then, but her credibility as a judge of character took a massive hit this season.  Taystee, Janae and Cindy went way the fuck down in my estimation, too.

 

Finally I loved how Piper and Caputo teamed up to game Fig.  And now Caputo has had to almost instantly reneg on some of those high ideals he held when Bennett confronts him with what he's done.  More shades of grey and more Alex Vause coming up for season 3.  I think I'll prefer it as long as the writing stays strong.  I'll be interested to see if they go the Buffy "Big Bad" route again for a season-long arc.  

 

ETA: Oh, finally, I have to brag.  I said in the episode 1 thread that I thought it was possible that Alex and Piper just got their wires crossed in their testimony like an O. Henry story.  So when Alex described the situation as being "like an O. Henry story" I squealed.  CALLED IT.

Edited June 11, 2014 by bravelittletoaster

[Kristen]

Just finished the finale, and all I can say - without having properly processed everything - is that I've never been so pleased to see someone get hit by a van.

[bravelittletoaster]

I also loved Alex trying to reassure Piper about her chances of hiding out in New York: "Pynchon did it for years."  LOL

 

I'm sorry, but I need a few smart, erudite characters who can bandy about references like that.  It takes all kinds to make a world.  Even Piper's kind.

[hkit]

 It doesn't mean for me that Suzanne was wrong then, but her credibility as a judge of character took a massive hit this season.  Taystee, Janae and Cindy went way the fuck down in my estimation, too.

 

This season destroyed Suzanne for me. One of my favorites from Season 1, there is nothing they can do to make me care about her again. Her issues in Season 1 were crazy, but ultimately harmless, like throwing pie and public urination. But I didn't like how unhinged she was this season. Even before Vee entered the picture, she demonstrated just what a loose cannon she is by clocking out Piper cold and unprovoked. During the interrogation scene for the slocking, they went down a laundry list of other incidents. She's dangerous and has needs that cannot be met by a minimum security prison. I'm sure it's entirely realistic that someone like her would slip through the cracks and remain in Litchfield, but I am having a real hard time reconciling it. She should be in a psych ward and I just cannot get invested in her as a character after this season's arc. Too bad, because I think the actress is phenomenal.

 

I give Taystee a bit of the benefit of the doubt. Vee had been brainwashing her for 15 years, so it isn't like she turned on Poussey on a dime like Janae and Cindy. She and Poussey seem to be making amends, which is a step towards redemption for me. Cindy and Janae, however, have a long upwards climb next season.

[bravelittletoaster]

I think all the aforementioned characters who were given a bigger dramatic load this season bore the brunt of it in visible ways.  If all your lines are comedic and your memorable quips are easily turned into gifsets it's pretty easy to be an unproblematic fan favorite.  This season did those characters the service I suppose of taking them more seriously and giving them their own shit [Piper: "We all have our shit, Nicky."]  It's easier to be likable when you're a cartoon, which I tried to remind myself this season when I found myself liking the season 1's comedic foil characters less and less as they thugged out and ran the prison.

 

In all deference to Suzanne's depiction this season, they did tell us all that about her last year.  On separate occasions.  But I think it naturally didn't sink in as much as it has now when they showed us.  

 

ETA: Totally different topic but wanted to add: When Caputo tells Bennett to keep his mouth shut unless he wants his baby mama to be sent to max and shackled for the birth of their child, I think that actually happened in the book to someone.  Maybe it wasn't first hand--like I don't remember if it happened while Piper was there, or if she just learned about it from someone else, but I definitely remember her talking about it and how fucking distressing it is.  It was near the end when she was focusing on some of the guard abuse, and how the prisoners just have no agency whatsoever.  The pregnant woman she writes about was horribly punished for her infraction of having sex with a guard, which is legally non-consensual.

 

ETA2: OMG, Jimmy.  We never got resolution on Jimmy.  :(  And I'm sure that was intentional.  She was such an efficient and [for me] devastating example of the failures of the system this season.  That was a really well executed narrative thread.

Edited June 11, 2014 by bravelittletoaster

[TeeVee329]

She's dangerous and has needs that cannot be met by a minimum security prison. I'm sure it's entirely realistic that someone like her would slip through the cracks and remain in Litchfield, but I am having a real hard time reconciling it

 

I can't swear to it, but wasn't there a mention last season that her parents have used their influence to keep her out of max/psych?

[annlaw78]

 

This season destroyed Suzanne for me. One of my favorites from Season 1, there is nothing they can do to make me care about her again. Her issues in Season 1 were crazy, but ultimately harmless, like throwing pie and public urination. But I didn't like how unhinged she was this season. Even before Vee entered the picture, she demonstrated just what a loose cannon she is by clocking out Piper cold and unprovoked. During the interrogation scene for the slocking, they went down a laundry list of other incidents. She's dangerous and has needs that cannot be met by a minimum security prison. I'm sure it's entirely realistic that someone like her would slip through the cracks and remain in Litchfield, but I am having a real hard time reconciling it. She should be in a psych ward and I just cannot get invested in her as a character after this season's arc. Too bad, because I think the actress is phenomenal.

I think the show depicts Suzanne as benefiting from the same white privilege that Piper does, given her parents are white, and at least upper middle-class.  Last season, Suzanne explained that she's been in the Psych Unit, but "Mommy and Daddy and Lawyer" have worked out a deal with the Warden to keep her in Litchfield.  Suzanne has the equivalent of a "Larry" on the outside, raising holy hell if the system messes with her as it does with "regulars."  Do we know what her crime was? 

 

Have we ever had a Mendoza-backstory ep?  I'm curious to know more about her, whom I suspect to be the smartest person in LItchfield (sorry Piper!). 

 

ETA:  Teevee beat me to it!

Edited June 11, 2014 by annlaw78

[joanne3482]

I can't swear to it, but wasn't there a mention last season that her parents have used their influence to keep her out of max/psych?

 

Yes. I rewatched season 1 before I watched season 2. There is mention when Piper is talking about Pennsatucky sent to psych that Suzanne is the only one to have ever come back from psych and that there was an arrangement with her parents and the warden to try to keep Suzanne out of psych. I think she goes back and forth between maybe?

 

Have we ever had a Mendoza-backstory ep?  I'm curious to know more about her, whom I suspect to be the smartest person in LItchfield (sorry Piper!).

 

Now that I looked up which one Mendoza is, yes she has this season. It was in the episode Low Self-Esteem City. 

Edited June 11, 2014 by joanne3482

[kia112]

Not sure how I feel about the Larry/Polly plot.  Not sure I really care except for how it affects Piper.   Larry had a point about Piper cheating on him with Alex but Piper had a bigger point about Larry moving on with her best friend....her married best friend...her married best friend with an infant baby.  Not cool Larry.

Not only that, but I think the creepiest part is their lives overlap so much; where's the distinction and objectivity, especially when it comes to Polly?  You should be able to tell you best friend all of your secrets without having to wonder if they will eventually get back to your ex because she's now in love with him and wants to pacify his insecurities with your intimate details.  And she also has to worry that Larry might divulge things she told him in confidence about Polly?  F that s.

 

I like John and Daya.  I think they're both really sweet, but as S1 went on, I couldn't believe how dumb they were.  This season was even worse.  Bennett, you are not a punk because you don't want to go to prison and Pornstache is not a man because he's proudly bellowing his delusions down the hall.

[hkit]

I can't swear to it, but wasn't there a mention last season that her parents have used their influence to keep her out of max/psych?

 

You are right, I had forgotten all about that episode! Now I have to rethink my feelings on the episode with Suzanne's backstory. I left that thinking that her adopted parents tried the best they could with her but were just ill equipped to handle someone with her challenges. But now that I recall that, how much did they choose NOT to see?

 

Anyhow, it's still going to be tough for me to care about the character again. My heart broke for her after seeing her cry listening to Larry's radio program. I registered no emotions watching her cry while clinging to Zee's Uno game. 

[annlaw78]

 

Now that I looked up which one Mendoza is, yes she has this season. It was in the episode Low Self-Esteem City.

Okay, well I clearly need to pay better attention and not leave the room while it's on!

 

 

Not only that, but I think the creepiest part is their lives overlap so much; where's the distinction and objectivity, especially when it comes to Polly?  You should be able to tell you best friend all of your secrets without having to wonder if they will eventually get back to your ex because she's now in love with him and wants to pacify his insecurities with your intimate details.  And she also has to worry that Larry might divulge things she told him in confidence about Polly?  F that s.

I think Larry and Polly's getting together shows each tacitly understands that Piper is going to be so altered by her experience in prison, that neither expects her to be the same person when she gets out, or for Larry-Piper and Polly-Piper to be the same ever again.  I think Polly figured that one out with last season's chicken episode.  And, obviously, Larry's going to have issues with Piper's relationship with Alex.  I don't really fault either of them for being annoyed with Piper, though, frankly, considering Larry is trying to turn my-fiancee's-in-prison into a cottage industry for him, he needs to shut up. 

 

I'm not sure I buy that Larry, who pretty clearly did not want to have a child with Piper in Season 1 (certainly did not want the responsibility of raising the child for a few months while she stayed in prison), is so gung-ho about Polly's ready-made family. 

[joanne3482]

I registered no emotions watching her cry while clinging to Zee's Uno game.

 

I did. I really wanted one of the girls to go play with her. 

[bravelittletoaster]

It really leaves me wondering what kind of state Suzanne will be in when season 3 begins, and who will step into the vacuum that has alternately been filled by Piper and Vee in her emotional life and imagination.

[rozen]

This season kind of emphasized that Piper's "Prison Wife" con on Soso was actually true, though I suppose it's more like Prison Mom. The black girls were wide open for manipulation because they didn't have a maternal figure to shield them from the big bad wolf. Even better if the Prison Mom is a BAMF. Red was a weak prison mom in terms of muscle, but she was still able to shield her girls when Vee stole her business the first time around. Vee never tried to take control of the kitchen because Gloria does not mess around and would have her laid up in the infirmary with intestinal problems for the rest of her life. Team Old Biddies are apparently stone cold killers in min for good behavior, and are too old to be run around with head games. In contrast, Poussey, Taystee, Black Cindy, etc had no one, which means they didn't get bossed around doing things they didn't want, but also made them easily turned against one another. The closest thing to matron they have is Sophia, who seems to exist in her own little silo away from everyone else. 

 

Am I the only one who's a little glad that Rosa got locked up so early in her career? She would have been a terrifying mafia don, once she got over her boyfriends dying on her.

[dohe]

When it comes to Vee, sometimes evil people are evil people.  Not every person in prison is there because they made mistakes out of love, wanting to provide for their family, or the thrill of danger.  Sometimes they are nasty people who only care about themselves when it comes down to it.  Vee's decision to not only kill a young man she had known since he was a child but to first have sex with him best showed he was an exploiter.  Sometimes an evil person is just an evil person. 

 

As for Piper's main reason for wanting Alex back, I think it is sexual and romantic desire.  In the flashback a few episodes ago they brought up that Piper found sex with Alex to far beyond her experience with anyone else.  She was shown going after Alex later despite Alex having a girlfriend.  Even earlier in the season she was shown caving to Alex and in a flashback clinging to Alex.  But the final part that all but spelled it out was the end.  She had every card Alex sent.  She took them out and looked at them with a loving look.  And began to read.  Alex's desire makes her do the irrational.  She may not be like Morello but she isn't all that far off at this point.   

[DangerousMinds]

I think the show depicts Suzanne as benefiting from the same white privilege that Piper does, given her parents are white, and at least upper middle-class.  Last season, Suzanne explained that she's been in the Psych Unit, but "Mommy and Daddy and Lawyer" have worked out a deal with the Warden to keep her in Litchfield.  Suzanne has the equivalent of a "Larry" on the outside, raising holy hell if the system messes with her as it does with "regulars."  Do we know what her crime was? 

 

Have we ever had a Mendoza-backstory ep?  I'm curious to know more about her, whom I suspect to be the smartest person in LItchfield (sorry Piper!). 

 

ETA:  Teevee beat me to it!

Yes, what was Suzanne's crime? If they told us, I missed it.

 

I don't think Piper is necessarily the smartest inmate at Litchfield, but she's had a privileged upbringing and education that most others there haven't. So she can casually throw out literary references because of that education. 

[bravelittletoaster]

But the final part that all but spelled it out was the end.  She had every card Alex sent.  She took them out and looked at them with a loving look.  And began to read.  Alex's desire makes her do the irrational.  She may not be like Morello but she isn't all that far off at this point.

Yeah, about that....so I never really doubted when she said she'd been throwing them away, because we saw her throw that one in the garbage. But apparently she'd been keeping [most of] them all along?  So she was lying about that?  It was a little unclear.  I actually had seen the footage of her pull the stack of letters out of her lockers before the season came out, because it was on a B-roll that was floating around, so I thought they'd come back to her somehow, but I predicted that they'd come from Suzanne [who had found Christopher's wedding announcement in the trash.]  But obviously that didn't transpire, so was she telling people she was throwing them out but really saving them?  Or did she throw out the initial ones and then keep the later ones?  Cause there were a lot there.

 

I guess in any case the point was that yeah, the magnetic pull towards Alex is still in full force.

[joanne3482]

Yes, what was Suzanne's crime? If they told us, I missed it.

 

They haven't told us yet. 

[Lila82]

I'm curious about the overarching conflict for season three.  Season one was inmates v. authority, culminating with the organized takedown of Mendez.  Season two focused on inmate v. inmate via the simmering race war and power shenanigans.  My guess for season three is inmate v. self, with Nicky's heroin addiction taking front and center.

 

My favorite side plot was also Ruiz/Baby/Boyfriend, but the most heartbreaking was the destruction of the Watson's/Yoga Jones friendship.  They were lovely together and it brought out a different side in both characters.  I was also a little devastated by the end of Pennsatucky/Healy's partnership. They were kind of adorably, albeit idiotically, sweet together.

 

I cannot stand Alex or Alex/Piper, but a sense of order was restored when she was busted by David Crockett.   The show feels off without her.

[MMLEsq]

Given that so many have binge watched, it seems like we need a "All of season two" thread.  

Yes!  That would be great.  The problem with binge watching is that I don't have a good enough memory to remember in what episode something happened when I've watched 4 or 5 in a row 'til the wee hours of the morning. 

[bravelittletoaster]

That thread exists, guys.

[MMLEsq]

That thread exists, guys.

Thanks for the reminder -- you're right, of course.  I had seen the Season 1 vs. Season 2 thread earlier today, but had totally forgotten about the (only) Season 2 thread because I had avoided it for so long (afraid of being spoiled before I finished watching the whole season). 

[Totale]

 

{toddthomas}Piper not knowing she was going to trial and not knowing what was expected of her are big issues for me. It could be chalked up to Larry's father's incompetence but there's no way she should have sat down with the prosecutor without some deal being discussed. Before they even got to the point of moving her out of NY to IL, someone would have visited her in prison (and "no, AUSA, you can't talk to her because she's in SHU" would not fly) and discussed testifying.

 

That bugged the hell out of me, too - especially since Alex apparently cut a deal for her testimony at the 11th hour.  Maybe I've seen too much "Law and Order", but I couldn't figure out why Piper didn't subtly suggest to her attorney that since she'd been told by Alex that A intended to deny all knowledge of the kingpin, she was feeling a bit forgetful herself.  Unless, of course, something like the prospect of immediate release magically brought things back into focus, assuming the prosecutor was more interested in putting the big fish away than in worrying about the small fry. 

Edited June 12, 2014 by Totale

[90PercentGravity]

My favorite side plot was also Ruiz/Baby/Boyfriend

He looked so severe and disinterested most of the time that I was pretty worried about that baby. Nice to see him less scary by the end.

Edited June 13, 2014 by 90PercentGravity

[Happy to be here]

This season destroyed Suzanne for me.

 

 

The exact opposite for me.  This season has made Suzanne fascinating.  I loved her before but it was the same way you would love a puppy,  "Oh its so cute."  But now there is some edge to her and I really want to know what she did to land in prison.  Suzanne strikes me as a privildged woman who fell though the cracks because no one diagnosed her special needs (whether it was mental illness or emotional needs) until it was too late.  Kate Mulgrew has said that these women have slipped on a banana peel and some are paying with their lives and Suzanne strikes me as someone like that.  A tiny mistake snowballed into felony or she more likely what was once cute as a puppy suddenly was not so cute once her parents realized puppies grow up to be big dogs.  

Edited June 12, 2014 by ChaosTheory

[Portia]

I got choked up when Ruiz's babydaddy was chattering to his little daughter.

I laughed my butt off when Suzanne referred to Red looking like Heat Miser. I've been saying that to my husband ever since season 2 dropped!

It made me weirdly happy to hear Suzanne call her padlock Lady Locksley.

Loved the ending. The only thing that could have improved it was a little more cowbell.