S04.E08: The Mountain And The Viper 2014.06.01

[FlamingWench79]

Indira Varma is a great actress and stunning, been a fan since the film Karma Sutra: A Tale of Love.

I had been racking my brain trying to figure out why she looked so familiar.  Such a talented, natural beauty.  

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 4, 2014 by FlamingWench79

[NJ RadioGuy]

You can't just ad up a bunch of minor characters and say "look, bad guys die too!"  ...

There is also Theon of course, but his comeuppance was so extreme as to rob it of any satisfaction.  There was no pleasure in that.

The scales remain grossly tilted in favor of awful people.

 

If a tale is being crafted well, the villains will always have the upper hand until the end, and I'm quite OK with that. I don't want the "heroes" to be safe and I'm good with some of them dying along the way, so long as the BigBad ultimately gets defeated. If Oberyn had lived, Tyrion would have been freed immediately and...nothing would have really changed. He'd go back to doing what we've become used to him doing and it would be boring after a fashion. Tyrion teams up with Bronn, they do witty things together and thwart Evil Daddy Warbucks dastardly plans; hilarity ensues. So yeah, Oberyn had to die, as painful as it was. Just as Robb had to die and just as Ned had to die.

 

As for Theon, he got everything he deserved. I felt little sympathy for his pain and suffering in light of what he did and how many lives he took. I was tickled purple--er--pink at the way Joffrey died, and Rast and Qarl, after killing my beloved L.C. Mormont got satisfyingly gruesome deaths in my eyes.

 

The Boltons have just become the latest BigBads in the series. If they were to die tomorrow, what then? We, the TV viewing audience, haven't seen any other truly dark characters who could take their place. So I say patience, grasshopper. It's always darkest before the dawn. I trust GRRM (and Dave and Dan) to ultimately do right by the fans of both the written and televised story. Eventually.

 

Each major "good" character death kills me a little inside and there are three secondary characters I desperately want to survive but who I fear won't (no hints here, sorry), and I'll be ready to throw the remote at the screen if or when they do. But my gut tells me that even if they do die, their deaths will become catalysts for something major and positive to occur later.

[Jeebus Cripes]

Veering a bit off topic but speaking of Aiden Gillen's hoarseness, I hope it's due to overuse or something benign and not something serious. 

 

Hasn't his voice always been raspy like that? I remember remarking about it the first time I heard him speak in season 1. It's very sexy. I feel slightly wrong for shipping Littlefinger and Sansa, but the chemistry won't be ignored.

Edited June 4, 2014 by Jeebus Cripes

[Haiti D]

I must say that I laughed when Tywin had Pycelle's speech interrupted. I wonder what the source of Tywin's antipathy towards Pycelle is.

In regards to Danaerys and Jorah, I feel like this scene could have been better handled if Clarke had decided to look at Glenn eye to eye. She seemed to be staring past him. To me it was a distracting acting choice. But I guess she was so disgusted by him that she couldn't face him directly. I guarantee she will regret this decision very soon.

I hope everyone from Jon's inner council survives next week. fingers crossed

[terrymct]

I watched the episode again last night and a few things occurred to me.

 

Cersei may have gotten some satisfaction over finally getting to kill her younger brother, but she has a problem that may be larger.  Oberlyn was killed by her champion.  Oberlyn's family have Myrcella, her daughter.  Uh oh.  Do all the Martell's feel like Oberlyn about protecting little girls?  Cersei just sent Myrcella a fairly large boat.  I wonder if it's meant to be a means for Myrcella and the King's Guard guy who went with her to sneak out of Dorne and get back to King's Landing.

 

Littlefinger now controls the known heirs to the Vale and Winterfell/the North.  Robin is clearly the future leader of the Vale (if he survives).  Sansa's brothers are all dead or thought to be dead, so she'd inherit from her father.   If Littlefinger could somehow get control back from the Roose Bolton, he's wards/captives/accolytes/whatever would control a massive amount of the Seven Kingdoms and potentially have a lot of bannermen lining up behind them.  Littlefinger would be, as he seems to like, the power behind the thrones.   He'd be in the catbird's seat, or would that be mockingbird's seat?  ;)

 

I don't think Arya will end up going up to the Ayrie.  There's no reason for either she or the Hound to go to the trouble now that they don't believe she has a living adult relative up there.  The only way Arya and Sansa could meet is if Sansa rides out with Robin to visit some of the keeps.  It did sound like she and Littlefinger might be going.  She could pass Arya on the road.  I think this will be another case of the Stark kids being within yards of each other but not being able to interact.  If the Hound's stamina is already being affected by the infected bite on his neck, I think Arya is going to be able to walk or ride away from him in the very near future.  Her play now is probably going to Bravos to join the assassins.

 

Theon and Ramsey both need to fall into a deep hole, be torched by a dragon, eaten by wild walkers, or something.  Damn, they're sick and boring.  How can you be sick and boring at the same time?  Dunno, but they manage it.

 

Jorah, Ser Friendzone, is probably going to look for ways to win his way back into Dany's inner circle.  I bet you he gets involved with some spying, since he has experience in that, and tries to manipulate something into her favor.   It was time that he and Dany's relationship was shaken up.  Hopefully, she'll listen more to Ser Bellamy than to her toy boy the Second Son guy (blanking on his name).

[Constantinople]

You can't just ad up a bunch of minor characters and say "look, bad guys die too!"  Nothing that has ever happened to the genuine bad guys -- the people the audience has been hating and rooting against for several seasons -- matches the pain, humiliation, degradation and despair visited on Ned, Robb, Catelyn, Talissa, and Oberyn.  The sole exception may be Viserys, who died ignominiously while crying and begging for his life.  That's the kind of fate people wish Joffrey experienced: the knowledge and certainty of your own ruin.  That's what made the Red Wedding so awful.  

 

There is also Theon of course, but his comeuppance was so extreme as to rob it of any satisfaction.  There was no pleasure in that.

 

The scales remain grossly tilted in favor of awful people.

If anything, this episode was a defeat for the Lannisters, not a victory.

"The House that puts family first will always defeat the House that puts the whims of its sons and daughters first" - Tywin Lannister

On the whole, I agree. The problem for the Lannisters is they're not living up to that. They've decided to execute one of their two most important members, and their next generation of competent political leadership, based on the whims and wishes of individual Lannisters.

Everything Davos told the Iron Bankers remains true: Tommen is still a boy; Tywin, the only other political brain in the family, is still 67; Cersei is a figure of unity only in the sense that everyone hates her; Jaime is an oath breaker (Bankers don't give a shit why Jaime broke his oath, they just see him as a greater default risk). If anything, Davos soft pedaled it since Jaime has absolutely no interest in government.

The Lannister gold mines remain empty.

[Drogo]

 

I feel slightly wrong for shipping Littlefinger and Sansa, but the chemistry won't be ignored.

Nor should it, IMO. 

What's so different between Sansa+LFinger and Dany+Drogo- who so many people loved? 

 

A young woman is suddenly removed from years of abuse at the hands of someone who was supposed to care for her, finds herself in a relationship where a man of power and means who helps her to find her own voice, grow powerful herself, and feel safe and desired? 

 

*Not saying this is where Sansa's head is at, but it's definitely not creepy to me.  This is not 2014 USA, this is medieval Westeros.  On his own he's an attractive man, and by comparison to others we've seen (Frey and Craster come to mind) LF is a stone cold fox. 

 

 

In regards to Danaerys and Jorah, I feel like this scene could have been better handled if Clarke had decided to look at Glenn eye to eye.

 

I enjoyed the angles of this scene. 

 

When Dany trusted Jorah, she looked up to him- literally and figuratively.  (My favorite example below)

 

Now, she's Daenerys Stormborn of the House Targaryen, Breaker of Chains and Mother of Dragons... and he is a traitor... and she looks down at him.  Her place on the higher stair negates their height difference and serves as a symbol that she is above him in this room and all rooms.

 

[Constantinople]

What's so different between Sansa+LFinger and Dany+Drogo- who so many people loved? 

 

A young woman is suddenly removed from years of abuse at the hands of someone who was supposed to care for her, finds herself in a relationship where a man of power and means who helps her to find her own voice, grow powerful herself, and feel safe and desired? 

 

*Not saying this is where Sansa's head is at, but it's definitely not creepy to me.  This is not 2014 USA, this is medieval Westeros.  On his own he's an attractive man, and by comparison to others we've seen (Frey and Craster come to mind) LF is a stone cold fox.

When you can only make Littlefinger look good by comparing him to Craster or Lord Frey, I think you've answered your own question.

Here are some reasons I can think of off hand why people don't view LF+SS in the same way as D+DT

1. Littlefinger's about 3 times Sansa's age. I'm not sure how old Daenerys is supposed to be in the TV show, as opposed to the books, but I got the sense the age disparity between her and Drogo was much smaller.

2. Drogo never had some great unrequited love for Daenery's mother, so Daenerys wasn't serving as some kind of second chance for him. It's really creepy for Littlefinger to tell Sansa that in a "better" world he could be her father and then kiss her in a very unpaternal way (unless Craster is your father).

3. With Drogo, you know what you get. With Littlefinger, not so much. To put it another way, Dothraki culture isn't exactly all shits and giggles, but within that context, I'd argue that Drogo is much more ethical and reliable than Littlefinger could ever be.

4. Drogo didn't implicate Daenerys in someone elses's murder.

5. Drogo does his own dirty work - "The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword".

6. Drogo's scheming didn't lead to the deaths of Daenerys's father or mother. Drogo did kill Viserys, but Viserys was no Robb, and Daenerys was fully on board with Viserys's "coronation".

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Squishy grape heads aside, the thing that got me most in this episode was the love and connection shown between Oberyn and Ellaria. I honestly have never seen such intense love between two people on TV.  Sure they've been seen having sex with everything and enjoying themselves.  But, the scene here was pure love. 100% adoration and love for one another. I could feel it.

 

There were so many little moments that caught my attention:  The kisses, were real and passionate. They weren't fake sloppy messy "passionate" TV kisses. They were simple, but deep, meaningful kisses.  Also, while he stood beside her, she had a grip on his arm like she didn't want to let go.  They were connected in a way I've never seen.

 

I'm still in awe. Superb acting by both.

ITA - often tv/film depictions of couples concentrate on lust/sexy times, schmoopiness, or fighting/conflict. But Oberyn and Ellaria seemed very devoted to one another. They clearly loved one another and although we saw lots of sexy times in their scenes, it was obvious to me that there was more to their relationship than just physical attraction. Considering how little dialogue they had with each other about their relationship and their feelings for each other, I think they did a really amazing job conveying the depth of their love.

[Drogo]

 

*Not saying this is where Sansa's head is at, but it's definitely not creepy to me.  This is not 2014 USA, this is medieval Westeros.  On his own he's an attractive man, and by comparison to others we've seen (Frey and Craster come to mind) LF is a stone cold fox.

 

When you can only make Littlefinger look good by comparing him to Craster or Lord Frey, I think you've answered your own question.

 

I actually said that Littlefinger is an attractive man on his own- he's not only attractive compared with Craster/Frey. 

My original comment was addressing those who believe it's creepy because of their age difference or that he'd been in love with her mother before meeting her. 

 

Catelyn was in love with Ned's brother, then he died, and she was married to Ned and grew to love him dearly.  If age differences aren't a big deal in Westeros, and falling in love/marrying/having children with the relative of someone you used to be in love with isn't a big deal in Westeros, then it stands to reason that falling in love with someone who used to be in love with your mother and happens to be much older than you in Westeros should not be a big deal. 

 

I disagree that he implicated Sansa in a murder on purpose.  I don't even believe that he purposely implicated Tyrion, as no one could have foreseen Joffrey forcing Tyrion to be his cupbearer and humiliating him publicly at the wedding.  Had the wine not been poured so obviously by Tyrion, at Joffrey's insistence, I'm not sure that Tyrion would even  be the prime suspect.  But I digress.  Sansa only knows that Littlefinger orchestrated a plan to get rid of horrible Joffrey and at the same time, please some new powerful friends of his.

[LadyArcadia]

Hasn't his voice always been raspy like that? I remember remarking about it the first time I heard him speak in season 1. It's very sexy. I feel slightly wrong for shipping Littlefinger and Sansa, but the chemistry won't be ignored.

 

The man is responsible for many of the "major" deaths and overall chaos in the show. He's responsible for Jon Arryn's death, Tyrion getting blamed for trying to murder Bran, Ned Stark's betrayal, I could go on and on. The man is the most evil on the show.  But not for squishing heads, for using his mind to manipulate others..

 

..and yet..  I'm still madly in love with the character.  He's sexy as all hell.  He's a very good looking man, with a sexy raspy voice, a brilliant mind, and has amazing (if inappropriate) chemistry with Sansa.

 

For me, he's the hottest guy on the show.  Yes, I'm aware of how warped I am.  ;-)

[CeeBeeGee]

Constantinople:

6. Drogo's scheming didn't lead to the deaths of Daenerys's father or mother. Drogo did kill Viserys, but Viserys was no Robb, and Daenerys was fully on board with Viserys's "coronation".

I agree with a lot of your post but how did LF help with the Red Wedding? I thought that was all Tywin and Roose Bolton?

The problem for the Lannisters is they're not living up to that. They've decided to execute one of their two most important members, and their next generation of competent political leadership, based on the whims and wishes of individual Lannisters.

This! Tywin is so smart, WHY can he not see how valuable Tyrion can be? How can he actually believe Tyrion is responsible for the death of Lady Lannister (whatever her first name was)? He's smarter than that. I guess even a smart person can be ruled by their emotions.

[Drogo]

 

how did LF help with the Red Wedding? I thought that was all Tywin and Roose Bolton?

 

Littlefinger told Catelyn that the dagger used in Bran's attempted murder belonged to Tyrion (having lost a bet to him) so Catelyn took Tyrion captive, igniting the entire Stark/Lannister showdown which resulted in the Red Wedding.  It's a long and winding road. 

 

The man is responsible for many of the "major" deaths and overall chaos in the show. He's responsible for Jon Arryn's death, Tyrion getting blamed for trying to murder Bran, Ned Stark's betrayal, I could go on and on. The man is the most evil on the show.  But not for squishing heads, for using his mind to manipulate others..

 

Yet he has no actual blood on his hands.  We had never seen Littlefinger kill anyone until this season.  That's pretty impressive. 

 

If this Game of Thrones thing doesn't work out he's a shoo-in for Sole Survivor. 

Edited June 4, 2014 by Drogo

[Drogo]

 

It's really creepy for Littlefinger to tell Sansa that in a "better" world he could be her father and then kiss her in a very unpaternal way (unless Craster is your father).

 

“I loved your mother more than you could ever know. Given the opportunity, what do we do to those who’ve hurt the ones we love? In a better world, one where love could overcome strength and duty, you might have been my child. But we don’t live in that world ... You’re more beautiful than she ever was.”

 

He's referring to the last 2 decades or so of his life which he's spent alone because their world is based on strength and rules, so he lost out on Catelyn.  I can't make a connection between him saying "If things had been different I might have married your mother twenty years ago" and him feeling paternally toward Sansa.   

[ChillinLikeSerIlyn]

 

We have never seen Littlefinger kill anyone.  That's pretty impressive.

 

I think Lysa Arryn may beg to differ.

[SoWindsor]

The man is responsible for many of the "major" deaths and overall chaos in the show. He's responsible for Jon Arryn's death, Tyrion getting blamed for trying to murder Bran, Ned Stark's betrayal, I could go on and on. The man is the most evil on the show.  But not for squishing heads, for using his mind to manipulate others..

 

..and yet..  I'm still madly in love with the character.  He's sexy as all hell.  He's a very good looking man, with a sexy raspy voice, a brilliant mind, and has amazing (if inappropriate) chemistry with Sansa.

 

For me, he's the hottest guy on the show.  Yes, I'm aware of how warped I am.  ;-)

I'm also just enjoying it and not trying to analyze and convince myself why it's ok. It's pure delight watching what has unfolded between Sansa and LF.

I cannot understand why people think he's creepy in a Craster or Ramsey way but each to his own. Not here to convince anyone to ship a pairing they are uncomfortable with.

If it's not Jon Snow and Dany (would love them to end up together) my next favorite endgame would be Sansa and LF (with him rehabilited by his real love for Sansa).

[bluvelvet]

Tywin is a smart man but when it comes to Tyrion he is ruled by emotion. I think some of his exchanges with Tyrion are the only times I have seen him express any type of emotion.

On some level he does recognize Tyrion's brains as he made him Hand in his stead and after that Master of Coin.

[taanja]

 

If it's not Jon Snow and Dany (would love them to end up together)

 

That's where I am at! dark as night and pale as light! and both so pretty.

 

[Meredith Quill]

Mod note: For those who wish to speculate about upcoming episodes, please do so in either the ordinary speculation thread or the newly posted no book talk episode 9 spec thread.

Thank you.

[RedHawk]

 

1. Littlefinger's about 3 times Sansa's age.

Is this correct? Isn't he about the same age as Lysa? I thought he was a year or so younger than Catelyn. So imagine if Cat had Sansa when she was about 20, then Littlefinger is ~20 years older than Sansa, hardly "3 times", more like twice her age. I don't see anything creepy about a man of ~38 being with a woman of 17 -- not in this world.

 

I must say that I laughed when Tywin had Pycelle's speech interrupted. I wonder what the source of Tywin's antipathy towards Pycelle is.

I laughed, too! Tywin cut off Pycelle because he doesn't like him but also because Pycelle was going to drone on through all The Seven in his "invocation". Tywin has no patience for that! I think we've seen Tywin cut off prayers to The Seven before, usually around the fourth one.

Edited June 4, 2014 by RedHawk

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Am I the only one, still grieving Obie's brutal demise?

 

 

 

Might need a Support group,lol!

[NoWillToResist]

I think a sign that Sansa doesn't really believe Littlefinger is her best friend is calling Tyrion the Imp. Before now, she's been defending him to Littlefinger and Lysa and the last we saw of them, they were actually getting along a lot better at the royal wedding. She actually liked him well enough, but still had every reason not to want to be married to him.

 

I think it’s kind of brilliant that she managed to sneak in informing the council that she’s MARRIED, so until Tyrion is gone (which may be soon, sadly), Littlefinger has to keep his mitts off her, doesn't he?

 

Sansa will be the rallying point at the Eyrie. The Hound has a bit of a crush on her. She's Arya's sister. And the other half of the Bob Hope Comedy Tour is still on its way to the Eyrie with Brienne being sworn to protect Sansa.

 

Hee!

When Dany was interrogating Jorah about his spying, she twice asked if he'd told that she was carrying Drogo's child.

 

I suspect she asked because, as bad as Jorah putting her in danger was, putting her UNBORN CHILD in danger is much worse. That shit ain’t gonna be forgiven by Dany, IMO.

What's so different between Sansa+LFinger and Dany+Drogo- who so many people loved?

 

For me, it's not so much about the age difference but about LF's desire/obsession with Sansa's mother. IMO, he only wants Sansa because she's apparently the spitting image of her. So, she's Cat 2.0 for him.

 

I'm too depressed about the needless death of Oberon to really talk about it. Sadly, GoT is getting to the point where I am having to emotionally disengage from its characters to avoid heartache.

[Mz Anthrope]

 

I must say that I laughed when Tywin had Pycelle's speech interrupted. I wonder what the source of Tywin's antipathy towards Pycelle is.

I wonder, too, if Cersi's disgust of him (her speech to him at Joffrey's wedding) may contribute to his dismissive attitude towards Pycelle.  Perhaps with Cersi finally (feeling) under Tywin's wing and working with him, he 'rewards' her with siding with her on items. 

[Constantinople]

I must say that I laughed when Tywin had Pycelle's speech interrupted. I wonder what the source of Tywin's antipathy towards Pycelle is.

 

 

I wonder, too, if Cersi's disgust of him (her speech to him at Joffrey's wedding) may contribute to his dismissive attitude towards Pycelle.  Perhaps with Cersi finally (feeling) under Tywin's wing and working with him, he 'rewards' her with siding with her on items.

Aside from smelling like dead cat, Pycelle is a spineless, bootlicking asskisser

Tywin will certainly make use of spineless, bootlicking asskissers, but he'll never respect them.

[Pagali]

Yes, exactly. It's not that Tywin has anything in particular against Pycelle -- he just doesn't suffer fools gladly.

[Hansey]

I must say that I laughed when Tywin had Pycelle's speech interrupted. I wonder what the source of Tywin's antipathy towards Pycelle is.

 

I think Tywin just knows how long winded Pycelle can be, and he was anxious to get on with the sentencing-his-son-to-death part of the program. I mean, did you see how quickly he was on his feet the moment Oberyn died? 

 

I did chuckle though... it made me think of the Academy Awards, when they bring up the music to cut off long winded acceptance speeches. ;)

[TooMuchCoffee]

Is this correct? Isn't he about the same age as Lysa? I thought he was a year or so younger than Catelyn. So imagine if Cat had Sansa when she was about 20, then Littlefinger is ~20 years older than Sansa, hardly "3 times", more like twice her age. I don't see anything creepy about a man of ~38 being with a woman of 17 -- not in this world.

 

I laughed, too! Tywin cut off Pycelle because he doesn't like him but also because Pycelle was going to drone on through all The Seven in his "invocation". Tywin has no patience for that! I think we've seen Tywin cut off prayers to The Seven before, usually around the fourth one.

Ha!  There's the justification for Tyrion's appeal, citing the precedent set by the Hound and the riverlands farmer (the one with the daughter).  The Hound interrupted the farmer's prayer at the "Stranger" and finished it for him.  Foul!  The prayer was only partly effective - stolen silver but spared life.  Pycelle didn't get to invoke all of the Seven so they didn't all show up to keep Oberyn safe and render the correct verdict. Tyrion needs a good death penalty attorney. 

[Haldebrandt]

Just red that the actor who played the Mountain consumes 10,000 calories a day.  Christ in heaven.

Edited June 4, 2014 by Haldebrandt

[Lady S.]

This is getting messy, but fyi, Sansa is at most 15 now and Littlefinger should be somewhere in his mid-thirties. Dany would have been 16/17 in s1 with Drogo in his thirties, but Jorah is the one with the bigger age difference. Tyrion could be a year or two younger than Littlefinger, if Petyr and Lysa were close enough in age to Cat, since Cat should have been a peer of Cersei's (if she wasn't, there's no reason she wouldn't have been already married to Brandon Stark), and Tyrion is 4 years younger than Cersei. Sandor should be about five years younger than baby-faced Gregor, making him her youngest suitor, excepting Lord Robin. (Also interesting, as far as age differences go, Jon Arryn married Lysa yet was older than Hoster Tully. But the arrangements for that marriage alliance haven't been gone into enough on the show, so maybe this should all be in a different thread.)

Edited June 5, 2014 by Lady S.

[paigow]

This is getting messy, but fyi, Sansa is at most 15 now and Littlefinger should be somewhere in his mid-thirties. Dany would have been 16/17 in s1 with Drogo in his thirties, but Jorah is the one with the bigger age difference. Tyrion could a year or two younger than Littlefinger if Petyr and Lysa were close enough in age to Cat since Cat should have been a peer of Cersei's (if she wasn't, there's no reason she wouldn't have been already married to Brandon Stark), and Tyrion is 4 years younger than Cersei. Sandor should be about five years younger than baby-faced Gregor, making him her youngest suitor, excepting Lord Robin. (Also interesting, as far as age differences go, Jon Arryn married Lysa yet was older than Hoster Tully. But the arrangements for that marriage alliance haven't been gone into enough on the show, so maybe this should all be in a different thread.)

Jamie is 40 years old. He mentioned it prior to the Purple Wedding. Littlefinger looks older than Jamie imo.

[SoWindsor]

Jamie is 40 years old. He mentioned it prior to the Purple Wedding. Littlefinger looks older than Jamie imo.

Aiden Gillen is 46. Nikolaj is 43. I won't risk googling how old is Littlefinger for fear of spoilers.

[lawless]

I think the creepiness with Littlefinger is that he was actively involved in the betrayal and ultimate death of Sansa's father (unbeknownst to her), his obsession with her mother, his running of a brothel in which he exploits women and sells them to people who kill them for sexual pleasure (such as with Ros and Joffrey), and his motivations in destabilizing what had been a peaceful Kingdom are disturbing, to say the least.  In addition, Sansa, until now, has come across as very young, inexperienced, vulnerable, abused, and exploited.  Littlefinger is a master exploiter whose motivations toward her seem highly suspicious.  Plus, he comes across as older because he's got the Paulie Walnuts whitewalls.  When put altogether, scary and creepy.

 

However, the actor is handsome, and he has a lot of chemistry with Sansa.  So what do I make of it?  I don't know -- I am simultaneously intrigued and repelled.

 

In contrast, we have watched Dany increasingly acquire power and control.  We never saw the actress as young as we saw the actress who plays Sansa, which makes a difference as well. Jorah has also always behaved in a dignified, deferential, reserved way toward Dany, despite his obvious love for her.  Other than beginning their relationship by spying on her (and Viserys, and probably Viserys was of more interest to Westeros initially, since he was the older male Targaryen), he has been devoted to her and respectful of her boundaries.  And as the Khaleesi/Queen/Mother of Dragons/Breaker of Chains, she has been in control of herself and Jorah, as well as Barristan Semly, Grey Worm, and 8,000 unsullied troops.  Her situation has been extremely different than Sansa's -- though Sansa finally seems to be acquiring some agency for herself, making her chemistry with Littlefinger suddenly intriguing.

[Lady S.]

Jamie is 40 years old. He mentioned it prior to the Purple Wedding. Littlefinger looks older than Jamie imo.

Yeah, and we're all agreed that Gregor looks much younger than Sandor. We can't really go by the actors' real ages here.

 

(My earlier throat lozenge comment was meant as a joke btw. I think his Batman impression is getting to be too much when I have to turn the volume all the way up to understand him, but I've seen him in recent interviews and he does still have a different voice when not in character.)

[Jeebus Cripes]

Yes, exactly. It's not that Tywin has anything in particular against Pycelle -- he just doesn't suffer fools gladly.

 

Tywin absolutely has Pycelle's number, as you can see from this deleted scene from Season 3:

 

My issue with Littlefinger/Sansa isn't so much age related, it's the fact the he's a despicable character. In that regard, I feel badly about shipping them. I kind of wish she could stay married to Tyrion, because I wanted to see how things played out a while longer between them.

[terrymct]

Yeah, and we're all agreed that Gregor looks much younger than Sandor. We can't really go by the actors' real ages here.

 

It's hard for me to estimate at the Hound's age.  When I look at him all I can see is greasy hair and scars.

[Drogo]

 

It's hard for me to estimate at the Hound's age.  When I look at him all I can see is greasy hair and scars.

 

And all I see is smoking hotness (pun intended) and one of the only men who's not scared of the Lannisters, doesn't kiss ass, stays away from brothels, and saves young girls from harm's way on this show.  He better start being bad again or I'll fear for his safety.

 

chivalry  (ˈʃɪvəlrɪ)

— n  , pl -ries

1.  the combination of qualities expected of an ideal knight, esp courage, justice, and a readiness to help the weak

Edited June 5, 2014 by Drogo

[CletusMusashi]

So how does the toughness of a human skull compare to something more easily available. Say, coconuts? 

I'm just trying to guess what the next big YouTube challenge is going to be.

[Drogo]

 

So how does the toughness of a human skull compare to something more easily available. Say, coconuts?

 

Not sure about crushing, but as a vessel for alcohol, a coconut is much more festive. 

 

[CletusMusashi]

That explains why the Howells were usually more cheerful than the Kupakai.

[KurlyGrl]

 

Littlefinger is a master exploiter whose motivations toward her seem highly suspicious.  

 

I agree.  And with Drogo and Dany, they grew to love and respect each other fiercely.  Yes I know I said “grew”.  But Drogo had no ultimate end game in mind when wanted a wife.  He wasn’t looking for status, riches, and a bigger “house” to rule.  He just wanted someone to be by his side.   As an equal.   Have a few kids. Live happily ever after.  Littlefinger just wants to fuck Sansa and as an added bonus, he’d ruler he kingdom.

 

 

 

Tywin absolutely has Pycelle's number, as you can see from this deleted scene from Season 3:

 

 

Wow.  Now THAT was an interesting scene.  When Pycell stood up straight and spoke like a normal man, I burst out laughing.  LOL!!  Well, he sure had me fooled. Maybe that's why they deleted the scene.  They wanted to keep Pycell a doddering old fool.  

[KurlyGrl]

 

Littlefinger just wants to fuck Sansa and as an added bonus, he’d ruler he kingdom.

 

 

Or on second thought, maybe Littlefinger wants to rule Sansa's kingdom and as an added bonus he'd fuck her.  There's no telling which is the bigger motivator.  

[BradandJanet]

That deleted scene is interesting to the story development, but also because Charles Dance is dashing in royal casual wear.

[Isazouzi]

Wow.  Now THAT was an interesting scene.  When Pycell stood up straight and spoke like a normal man, I burst out laughing.  LOL!!  Well, he sure had me fooled. Maybe that's why they deleted the scene.  They wanted to keep Pycell a doddering old fool.  

 

But it wasn't the first time we saw him stand up straight and show his true colours. I don't remember if it was in season 1 or 2, but the viewers aren't supposed to be fooled anymore. They should have kept this scene instead of the one with the prostitute, it's much better and teached us more about how much Tywin knows.

[Lady S.]

Also, Tywin gutting a fish (the sigil of House Tully), is a nice compliment to Tywin skinning a stag (the sigil of House Baratheon, in the very same ep where Robert dies) and Tywin throwing a scabbard made of wolf pelts into the fire when melting down Ned Stark's sword. If the deleted scene was in s3, it'd have to be in 3.03 before the small council meeting, the same episode we get our brief glimpse of Hoster Tully's corpse. Not that Tywin had anything to do with Lord Tully's death the way he did with the deaths of Hoster's elder daughter and eldest grandson (and unborn great-grandson), but his real victory against House Baratheon wasn't against Robert either, it's just that the deaths of both heads of House mark an endpoint for the strength of their Houses and the Houses' ultimate falls are linked to Tywin. We're lucky House Martell's sigil is a spear-pierced sun instead of an animal, else we'd probably see Tywin with a corpse/pelt of that animal at some point too, the lack of such a sigil can only be a good sign.

Edited June 5, 2014 by Lady S.

[Hecate7]

I'm not sure why so many people are weirded out about Littlefinger and Sansa.  Why are people calling him a pervert?   In the world of Westoros, Sansa is woman, capable of marraige and child bearing.  She is married, to an older man (maybe older than Littlefinger).  My impression from watching the show is that usually the young girls often marry much older men.  Sansa would be wise at this point to hitch her star to Littlefinger, at least for a while.

Littlefinger, like the Hound, is older than Tyrion. He grew up with Cat. He is interested in Sansa because she reminds him of her mother, which is a bit squicky for some. Littlefinger is trying to cause Tyrion's death. He already caused Ned Stark's death, and manipulated events so that Cat and Robb would die. He murdered his wife in cold blood, right in front ot Sansa. He set up a baroque scheme for Joffrey's murder that would implicate Sansa, and made sure that the necklace would find its way back to King's Landing, making Sansa entirely dependent on him.

 

Not content with causing the deaths of Sansa's family, Littlfinger would also like to do in Tyrion, who is the one person in King's Landing certain of her innocence and concerned with keeping her safe.

 

Danaerys looked absolutely insane dismissing Jorah, and I think the decision was insane. He's proven his loyalty to her many times over, and his actions since Drogo's death should have counted for something. Interesting how the episode juxtaposed Sansa embracing Littlefinger, who is untrustworthy and dangerous, and Danaerys banishing Jorah, who is absolutely loyal to her. He declined a royal pardon for her--I can't believe she didn't get that.

 

And then Oberyn.....it was just opposite day in Westeros, I guess.

[Taget]

Or on second thought, maybe Littlefinger wants to rule Sansa's kingdom and as an added bonus he'd fuck her.  There's no telling which is the bigger motivator.  

 

And even if he may claim or strongly imply he's helping her because he loved her mother or that he "loves" her because she remind s him so much of her mother it's possible that his real underlying emotion is to further punish and destroy the legacy and future of the woman who caused him so much grief by spurning him.

 

I have no doubt at the very least Littlefingers is constantly computing in his head how valuable Sansa may be as a wife and how valuable Sansa may be as something to be sold to Cersei.  And he probably is even keeping of tab of how much money Sansa would make if he put her in a brothel and auctioned off her virginity.

 

I am sure he also keeps in mind what makes him happy and gives himself pleasure which prevents the latter from happening.  But to say he is not to be trusted is an understatement.  Hopefully she got that message after he pushed her aunt (and his own wife) out the window.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Taget

[Haiti D]

Also, Tywin gutting a fish (the sigil of House Tully), is a nice compliment to Tywin skinning a stag (the sigil of House Baratheon, in the very same ep where Robert dies) and Tywin throwing a scabbard made of wolf pelts into the fire when melting down Ned Stark's sword. If the deleted scene was in s3, it'd have to be in 3.03 before the small council meeting, the same episode we get our brief glimpse of Hoster Tully's corpse. Not that Tywin had anything to do with Lord Tully's death the way he did with the deaths of Hoster's elder daughter and eldest grandson (and unborn great-grandson), but his real victory against House Baratheon wasn't against Robert either, it's just that the deaths of both heads of House mark an endpoint for the strength of their Houses and the Houses' ultimate falls are linked to Tywin. We're lucky House Martell's sigil is a spear-pierced sun instead of an animal, else we'd probably see Tywin with a corpse/pelt of that animal at some point too, the lack of such a sigil can only be a good sign.

Hoster Tully is dead? How did I miss that? (Out of a fear of spoilers, I won't Google it).

[MrWhyt]

 

Hoster Tully is dead? How did I miss that?

That was the funeral Catelyn and Robb attended at Riverrun.

[Meredith Quill]

Hoster Tully is dead? How did I miss that? (Out of a fear of spoilers, I won't Google it).

 

S3 Episode 3, at Riverrun, his was the funeral barge that Edmure Tully failed to hit 3 times with the fire arrows, then the Blackfish took over and nailed it 1st time.

[WearyTraveler]

Hoster Tully is dead? How did I miss that? (Out of a fear of spoilers, I won't Google it).

 

Maybe the description of his funeral scene will jog your memory:

 

There was a scene for his funeral with Cat, Robb, Cat's brother Edmund, and Cat's uncle The Blackfish.  Hoster's body was on a boat floating down the river, Edmund was supposed to shoot a fire arrow into the boat but he kept missing.  Finally, when the boat was almost out of sight, The Blackfish took the bow, shot the arrow and lit the boat.