S04.E03: The False Bride

[Athena]

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Jamie and Claire search for a place to call home; meanwhile, in the 20th century, Brianna and Roger's romance heats up and then fizzles during a road trip that winds up highlighting their differences.

Reminder: This is the No Book Talk topic. No discussion of the books is allowed including saying "in the books..." Posts may be removed without warning.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I know that Jocasta means well, but I was rolling my eyes when she told Claire she was holding Jamie back from being a laird. Maybe Jamie likes being a printer. Or maybe he doesn't want the responsibility of running a farm. Or maybe, LIKE HE TOLD YOU, he isn't comfortable owning slaves. But it was just Jocasta's entire mindset about how being a landowner was his birthright while having a job was beneath him.

If Roger thinks that Dairy Queen fries are delicious, I would love to take him on a culinary tour so he can try lots of fries!

Ugh, Brianna. Kissing someone like that while he's driving a car is reckless and dangerous. I'm sure I'm supposed to think it's impulsive and free spirited and adorable, but I don't.

There were some beautiful scenery shots in this episode.

How old is Ian supposed to be now? As he pointed out to Jamie, he's older than Jamie was when he went to France so it's about time Jamie stopped treating him like a child. If he wants to stay, he should be allowed to stay. When he left with Myers, I was sure Ian would get into some kind of trouble (regardless of whether it was his fault or not) because duh, it's Outlander so someone is always in peril, but even so it should be his choice. Based on how much trouble Jamie and Claire have gotten into, maybe it's better that Ian isn't traveling with them.

When Claire ran off after the mule, I was just waiting for her to get attacked or kidnapped. I swear that I'm not always paranoid, but given what we know of this show, it's always just a matter of time.

Why do shows think that if someone spins, I need to see it in slow motion? Because I DO NOT.

On the one hand, I have no interest in the Brianna and Roger love story. On the other hand, at least it's not Claire and Jamie in peril again.

I liked Roger last season (or at least I don't remember hating him) but good lord. He has written and called Brianna a few times since last summer and then he proposes to her within a day of his flight landing? I'm with Brianna on this - NO. As for his "we can be engaged as long as you want but I just want you to say yes," GTFO. How about we can date as long as you like until you feel we have gotten to know each other well enough to get engaged and commit to spending our lives together? THIS GUY. Seriously, slow your fucking roll. His all or nothing attitude is shit. Either you marry me or we have no relationship? Okay, BYE.

Claire, when you find a skull on the ground, that doesn't mean you have to pick it up and carry it around!

Edited November 21, 2018 by ElectricBoogaloo
Typo

[BitterApple]

Briana's never been my favorite character, but yeah, I was totally on her side. An international long-distance relationship where you've only seen each other several times in two years is hardly solid ground for a marriage. Roger's character certainly took a dark turn when he didn't get his way, so Briana's hesitation was well warranted.

If I'm not mistaken, Ian is around 17. 

I'm glad Fiona got the Reverand's house. She seems like the type of person who would cherish and take immaculate care of the place.

I'm dying to know whose skull Claire found in the mud.

[Cdh20]

16 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I know that Jocasta means well, but I was rolling my eyes when she told Claire she was holding Jamie back from being a laird. Maybe Jamie likes being a printer. Or maybe he doesn't want the responsibility of running a farm. Or maybe, LIKE HE TOLD YOU, he isn't comfortable owning slaves. But it was just Jocasta's entire mindset about how being a landowner was his birthright while having a job was beneath him.

If Roger thinks that Dairy Queen fries are delicious, I would love to take him on a culinary so he can try lots of fries!

Ugh, Brianna. Kissing someone like that while he's driving a car is reckless and dangerous. I'm sure I'm supposed to think it's impulsive and free spirited and adorable, but I don't.

There were some beautiful scenery shots in this episode.

How old is Ian supposed to be now? As he pointed out to Jamie, he's older than Jamie was when he went to France so it's about time Jamie stopped treating him like a child. If he wants to stay, he should be allowed to stay. When he left with Myers, I was sure Ian would get into some kind of trouble (regardless of whether it was his fault or not) because duh, it's Outlander so someone is always in peril, but even so it should be his choice. Based on how much trouble Jamie and Claire have gotten into, maybe it's better than Ian isn't traveling with them.

When Claire ran off after the mule, I was just waiting for her to get attacked or kidnapped. I swear that I'm not always paranoid, but given what we know of this show, it's always just a matter of time.

Why do shows think that if someone spins, I need to see it in slow motion? Because I DO NOT.

On the one hand, I have no interest in the Brianna and Roger love story. On the other hand, at least it's not Claire and Jamie in peril again.

I liked Roger last season (or at least I don't remember hating him) but good lord. He has written and called Brianna a few times since last summer and then he proposes to her within a day of his flight landing? I'm with Brianna on this - NO. As for his "we can be engaged as long as you want but I just want you to say yes," GTFO. How about we can date as long as you like until you feel we have gotten to know each other well enough to get engaged and commit to spending our lives together? THIS GUY. Seriously, slow your fucking roll. His all or nothing attitude is shit. Either you marry me or we have no relationship? Okay, BYE.

Claire, when you find a skull on the ground, that doesn't mean you have to pick it up and carry it around!

As soon as Claire ran off my hubby & I looked at each & said “shit, what’s going to happen to her this week? “ 

Also loved that scenery- is it actually North Carolina? 

 

Wth- Roger?

[Cdh20]

I loved all the episodes where they go back & forth in the 2 eras ( 213, 301,302,303,304), so I liked that a lot. Especially Roger & Bri driving down the same road as Jamie & Claire. 

[Cdh20]

I have been thinking about the parallels of the younger couple to the older one- are they trying to mirror that? Roger obviously taken with Bri from the first time he saw her, & now with his old fashioned attitude compared to Bri's modern woman.  I have liked their cute little snippets of a budding romance & I thought this episode's fight was well-acted, but they certainly haven't duplicated the chemistry of Jamie & Claire (of course no one else  in the history of TV has done that )!

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Edited November 19, 2018 by Cdh20

[terrymct]

On 11/18/2018 at 7:21 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

On the one hand, I have no interest in the Brianna and Roger love story. On the other hand, at least it's not Claire and Jamie in peril again.

I liked Roger last season (or at least I don't remember hating him) but good lord. He has written and called Brianna a few times since last summer and then he proposes to her within a day of his flight landing? I'm with Brianna on this - NO. As for his "we can be engaged as long as you want but I just want you to say yes," GTFO. How about we can date as long as you like until you feel we have gotten to know each other well enough to get engaged and commit to spending our lives together? THIS GUY. Seriously, slow your fucking roll. His all or nothing attitude is shit. Either you marry me or we have no relationship? Okay, BYE.

Claire, when you find a skull on the ground, that doesn't mean you have to pick it up and carry it around!

 

When Claire and Jamie aren't in immediately peril, she's just happening to flop down next to a skull and an opal and that skull happens to belong to another time traveler.  I'm guessing is going to be a way for various people to commute between eras in time without those pesky trips all the way to Inverness.   Really stupid plot line.   I thought Claire might treat the skull with respect after the guy went to all the trouble of showing up to her as a spirit, but no.  She leaves it laying there on the ground for a while, picks at it off and on, and totes it around with her in her sack.

I agree with your comments (and those of others) about the Roger-Brianne relationship.  It's strange for several reasons.  I can't help thinking that the two of them are related, though separated by a number of generations.   The actress who plays Brianne is also TERRIBLE.  

Edited November 19, 2018 by terrymct
fixed a typo

[GHScorpiosRule]

8 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

Also loved that scenery- is it actually North Carolina? 

No. It's Scotland that supposed to be North Carolina. All filming is in Scotland.

[Emkat]

Jamie and Claire are so damn damp. No way they or their clothes got dry. Gag! 

[Cdh20]

28 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

No. It's Scotland that supposed to be North Carolina. All filming is in Scotland.

I knew they were filming in Scotland- I wondered if the backdrop was actually there though, since they have been green screening in some scenery? Anyway that view was incredible!

[Cdh20]

And how did Roger get home from North Carolina?

[Nidratime]

Well, we don't know what his original plan was -- go all the way back to Boston? Leave from an airport closer to North Carolina? I'm sure he could've hitched a ride with someone from the festival since he was an invited performer/guest. 

[Cdh20]

28 minutes ago, Nidratime said:

Well, we don't know what his original plan was -- go all the way back to Boston? Leave from an airport closer to North Carolina? I'm sure he could've hitched a ride with someone from the festival since he was an invited performer/guest. 

I was of course just joking-he deserved to be left! 

[terrymct]

2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

No. It's Scotland that supposed to be North Carolina. All filming is in Scotland.

With some cheap looking CGI thrown in.

[BitterApple]

3 hours ago, terrymct said:

With some cheap looking CGI thrown in.

Seriously, why is the CGI so bad? It's really obvious when the scene switches from on-location to studio backdrop. They can't seem to get the lighting right on Jamie and Claire. I hope the showrunners don't think we're just a bunch of Harlequin Romance junkies who could care less about production value so long as Jamie's naked in half the episodes. I can't believe that's the best they can do. 

[Lily H]

Didn't Roger tell someone that Brianna is studying engineering at MIT? So why on earth would he expect her to give that up to marry him right away and have lots of babies? You don't get an engineering degree just for the fun of it. She's obviously career-minded.

[Cdh20]

3 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Seriously, why is the CGI so bad? It's really obvious when the scene switches from on-location to studio backdrop. They can't seem to get the lighting right on Jamie and Claire. I hope the showrunners don't think we're just a bunch of Harlequin Romance junkies who could care less about production value so long as Jamie's naked in half the episodes. I can't believe that's the best they can do. 

Come on when Jamie is 1/2 naked we don't notice if there is green screen, LOL

59 minutes ago, Lily H said:

Didn't Roger tell someone that Brianna is studying engineering at MIT? So why on earth would he expect her to give that up to marry him right away and have lots of babies? You don't get an engineering degree just for the fun of it. She's obviously career-minded.

I think we are meant to see that in that time it was still rare for women to have careers over families. Things have changed a lot in 50 years.

[Cdh20]

I did think that Jocasta gave Claire a reason to start that conversation with Jamie about what he wants to do with his life! We often see her as more selfish about what she needs to do to be happy but  really as long as he has Claire  by his side he is happy! 

[kwnyc]

Quote

Claire, when you find a skull on the ground, that doesn't mean you have to pick it up and carry it around!

But she DOES! That's our Claire! ;-)

One of the things I am loving this season is how Jamie and Claire are both mature enough to talk about what they need in their relationship, and to ask each other the hard questions: are you doing this for me? What do you really want to do? It's an adult relationship, and they are clearly in it for the long haul (as if Claire traveling back 200 years didn't prove that...)

And Geez, clearly feminism has not reached the Highlands in 1970! Roger, your great-great-great-great uncle treats women better than you do! And hey, Roger slept with other women BECAUSE he didn't love them! He has to wait to have sex with Brianna until they are engaged...I'm judging Roger by 21st century standards, but for 1970, he's already beginning to fall a bit behind.

And when Brianna was setting HER boundaries she was very like Claire, and I assume as a woman at MIT in 1970, she's probably one of the only women in her class *\(like Claire in med school.) She's definitely Claire's daughter.

Jocasta is absolutely true to her high-born roots, to the disgusted sound she makes at the thought of Jamie as a printer. And while she blames Claire for him walking away from the estate, she really seems to think that Jamie could get used to "our ways" (slavery). 

I think it's interesting that Claire tells Jamie she'd prefer not to go back to Boston, both because she's been there AND because revolution is fomenting there. Certainly they'd need a printer of seditious materials!

But Jamie clearly loves the mountains; and 200 years later, all the Scots who found them are still evident in the festivals and their descendents.

Edited November 20, 2018 by kwnyc
HIghlands, not highlights!

[Cdh20]

Quote

24 minutes ago, kwnyc said:

But she DOES! That's our Claire! ;-)

One of the things I am loving this season is how Jamie and Claire are both mature enough to talk about what they need in their relationship, and to ask each other the hard questions: are you doing this for me? What do you really want to do? It's an adult relationship, and they are clearly in it for the long haul (as if Claire traveling back 200 years didn't prove that...)

And Geez, clearly feminism has not reached the Highlands in 1970! Roger, your great-great-great-great uncle treats women better than you do! And hey, Roger slept with other women BECAUSE he didn't love them! He has to wait to have sex with Brianna until they are engaged...I'm judging Roger by 21st century standards, but for 1970, he's already beginning to fall a bit behind.

And when Brianna was setting HER boundaries she was very like Claire, and I assume as a woman at MIT in 1970, she's probably one of the only women in her class *\(like Claire in med school.) She's definitely Claire's daughter.

Jocasta is absolutely true to her high-born roots, to the disgusted sound she makes at the thought of Jamie as a printer. And while she blames Claire for him walking away from the estate, she really seems to think that Jamie could get used to "our ways" (slavery). 

I think it's interesting that Claire tells Jamie she'd prefer not to go back to Boston, both because she's been there AND because revolution is fomenting there. Certainly they'd need a printer of seditious materials!

But Jamie clearly loves the mountains; and 200 years later, all the Scots who found them are still evident in the festivals and their descendents.

 

I thought Claire didn't want to go to Boston, because it would remind her of being married to Frank, & leaving Brianna (unhappy memories)?

[Nidratime]

Quote

I think it's interesting that Claire tells Jamie she'd prefer not to go back to Boston, both because she's been there AND because revolution is fomenting there. Certainly they'd need a printer of seditious materials!

Hey! That's his specialty!

[taanja]

3 hours ago, kwnyc said:

But she DOES! That's our Claire! ;-)

One of the things I am loving this season is how Jamie and Claire are both mature enough to talk about what they need in their relationship, and to ask each other the hard questions: are you doing this for me? What do you really want to do? It's an adult relationship, and they are clearly in it for the long haul (as if Claire traveling back 200 years didn't prove that...)

And Geez, clearly feminism has not reached the Highlands in 1970! Roger, your great-great-great-great uncle treats women better than you do! And hey, Roger slept with other women BECAUSE he didn't love them! He has to wait to have sex with Brianna until they are engaged...I'm judging Roger by 21st century standards, but for 1970, he's already beginning to fall a bit behind.

And when Brianna was setting HER boundaries she was very like Claire, and I assume as a woman at MIT in 1970, she's probably one of the only women in her class *\(like Claire in med school.) She's definitely Claire's daughter.

Jocasta is absolutely true to her high-born roots, to the disgusted sound she makes at the thought of Jamie as a printer. And while she blames Claire for him walking away from the estate, she really seems to think that Jamie could get used to "our ways" (slavery). 

I think it's interesting that Claire tells Jamie she'd prefer not to go back to Boston, both because she's been there AND because revolution is fomenting there. Certainly they'd need a printer of seditious materials!

But Jamie clearly loves the mountains; and 200 years later, all the Scots who found them are still evident in the festivals and their descendents.

Woman still couldn't get their own Credit Cards in 1970. 

I finally got around to watching the ep.

I didn't find Roger out of line nor did I find Brianna's refusal of the proposal out of line. I just saw two people at different places in their lives that's all. Different views -- different goals. No one was wrong. No one was right. 

The ghost shoes/skull thing was weird. What does it mean? anything? So there are other time travelers? Wait! What? How? I need to know more!

[shelen]

Critical Care Nurse here chiming in:

Claire keeping the skull makes sense when you consider her medical background.  She could use it as a teaching tool on anatomy to someone who might assist her in some kind of medical procedure on the head or face.  Many doctors have skeletons (or certain bones) in their offices  for that reason.

[mledawn]

Everything Electric Boogaloo said AND I wanted to punch Roger in the face.

[ganesh]

With their only attempt to free all the slaves over 100 years early thwarted, Claire and Jamie leave the only secure shelter they have to wreak havoc in the west. It seems like it's been quite a while that we've been in one place and got to know everyone. 

I believe that Claire does believe that she just 'wants to make a home', but I mean come on. She can't sit still for 5 minutes. 

I guess it was nice to see 1970. So what, they went to Scot Burning Man in North Carolina? 

I still find it odd Claire hasn't thought to leave a message for the future somehow. 

I did have a good laugh when me and Brianna basically said "that doesn't make any sense" at the same time though. I thought Roger was going to back off, but yeesh dude. As the 70s said, know when to fold them. 

I certainly hope the ghost/skull whatever is a sign there's traveling stones in the Americas. 

You would think Claire and Jamie would have some emergency plan by now if they got separated. "head north to the biggest tree, mark your path", or "find the nearest river/stream". 

Edited November 21, 2018 by ganesh

[ElectricBoogaloo]

10 hours ago, mledawn said:

Everything Electric Boogaloo said AND I wanted to punch Roger in the face.

This made me laugh so hard!

[Otherkate]

Honestly, I don't know how you could see the way that Roger reacts to rejection and ever marry him, so I really hope to God that she doesn't. Gross. It's been a long time since I've been so quickly turned off by something a character did. I used to like him, but now he seems like a "nice" guy. No thanks. 

Edited November 21, 2018 by Otherkate

[nara]

On ‎11‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 7:21 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

How old is Ian supposed to be now? As he pointed out to Jamie, he's older than Jamie was when he went to France so it's about time Jamie stopped treating him like a child. If he wants to stay, he should be allowed to stay. When he left with Myers, I was sure Ian would get into some kind of trouble (regardless of whether it was his fault or not) because duh, it's Outlander so someone is always in peril, but even so it should be his choice. Based on how much trouble Jamie and Claire have gotten into, maybe it's better that Ian isn't traveling with them.

When Claire ran off after the mule, I was just waiting for her to get attacked or kidnapped. I swear that I'm not always paranoid, but given what we know of this show, it's always just a matter of time.

I liked Roger last season (or at least I don't remember hating him) but good lord. He has written and called Brianna a few times since last summer and then he proposes to her within a day of his flight landing? I'm with Brianna on this - NO. As for his "we can be engaged as long as you want but I just want you to say yes," GTFO. How about we can date as long as you like until you feel we have gotten to know each other well enough to get engaged and commit to spending our lives together? THIS GUY. Seriously, slow your fucking roll. His all or nothing attitude is shit. Either you marry me or we have no relationship? Okay, BYE.

Claire, when you find a skull on the ground, that doesn't mean you have to pick it up and carry it around! 

 

I think Ian is meant to be 19.  Wasn't Jamie 18-19 when he and Jenny were attacked by BJR? Then, 4-5 years later he had gone to France and was on his way home with Dougal when they found Claire.  I'm too lazy to find the link, but I believe it was discussed in this forum in Season 1.

I was expecting Claire to be kidnapped, so I'm glad it didn't happen,

I like that Roger was a jerk on the marriage issue.  It adds layers to the character instead of him being the perfect guy.

I laughed out loud about your comment on the skull.  I was thinking that only Claire would take a skull with her, instead of screaming at the sight of it.  (Not meant to be sexist. I think that anyone who found themselves curled up with a human skull would run away screaming.)  I thought it was horribly disrespectful that she didn't leave the bones alone, but I do think it's cool that there is another time traveler out there.  What if it's Roger? We know he has the blood of a time traveler...

 

On ‎11‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 9:11 PM, BitterApple said:

Briana's never been my favorite character, but yeah, I was totally on her side. An international long-distance relationship where you've only seen each other several times in two years is hardly solid ground for a marriage. Roger's character certainly took a dark turn when he didn't get his way, so Briana's hesitation was well warranted.

I'm glad Fiona got the Reverand's house. She seems like the type of person who would cherish and take immaculate care of the place.

I'm dying to know whose skull Claire found in the mud.

I wonder if we will see Roger turn into a bad guy...

I am glad Fiona got married and has the house, though I'm sad to see it leave the family.  IIRC, Briana was a little snide about her having a crush on Roger, so I'm glad she is happy.

I hope we will learn about the skull this season.  BTW, did Claire make the connection between Geillis and the skull that Joe mentioned?

 

On ‎11‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 9:05 AM, Cdh20 said:

I knew they were filming in Scotland- I wondered if the backdrop was actually there though, since they have been green screening in some scenery? Anyway that view was incredible!

North Carolina also has some similarly gorgeous views..

On ‎11‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 4:54 PM, Lily H said:

Didn't Roger tell someone that Brianna is studying engineering at MIT? So why on earth would he expect her to give that up to marry him right away and have lots of babies? You don't get an engineering degree just for the fun of it. She's obviously career-minded.

A lot of women went to college but abandoned their studies when they found a husband.  Also, as Claire mentioned, Briana was unsure about what to study.  Perhaps he assumed she would gladly give up college for married life.

 

On ‎11‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 10:32 AM, kwnyc said:

And when Brianna was setting HER boundaries she was very like Claire, and I assume as a woman at MIT in 1970, she's probably one of the only women in her class *\(like Claire in med school.) She's definitely Claire's daughter.

Jocasta is absolutely true to her high-born roots, to the disgusted sound she makes at the thought of Jamie as a printer. And while she blames Claire for him walking away from the estate, she really seems to think that Jamie could get used to "our ways" (slavery). 

But Jamie clearly loves the mountains; and 200 years later, all the Scots who found them are still evident in the festivals and their descendents.

I do like that Briana is growing up from the whiny girl she was and is setting her boundaries.  I would be nice to hear more about her experience as one of the few women at MIT.

I think that it's natural that she would assume Jamie would prefer the life as lord of the plantation.  Slavery or not, I think most people would choose a life of luxury over life in the wilderness.  Also, being a laird makes you responsible for the entire ecosystem on your land, so I actually think it's disappointing that they did not stay at River Run.  Yes, they would be forced to be slave owners, but they could have found a way to make the lives of the slaves and little less awful-- less brutal daily treatment, stopping rapes, etc.--even if they could not easily free the slaves.  I feel like Claire and Jamie put their own needs of how they want to perceive themselves above a real opportunity to help the slaves.  I think this is especially true of Claire, who is very black and while.  Jamie is typically more practical and nuanced in his thinking, so I am surprised and disappointed that he didn't try to stay. 

I was in Asheville, NC a little while back and saw some ads for a highland games type event.  Unfortunately, I was not there at the right time for them.  Sounds fun! (But I would skip the haggis-eating contest...)

 

On ‎11‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 10:32 PM, ganesh said:

With their only attempt to free all the slaves over 100 years early thwarted, Claire and Jamie leave the only secure shelter they have to wreak havoc in the west. It seems like it's been quite a while that we've been in one place and got to know everyone. 

I believe that Claire does believe that she just 'wants to make a home', but I mean come on. She can't sit still for 5 minutes. 

I still find it odd Claire hasn't thought to leave a message for the future somehow. 

You would think Claire and Jamie would have some emergency plan by now if they got separated. "head north to the biggest tree, mark your path", or "find the nearest river/stream". 

I was hoping that RiverRun would be the new Castle Leoch and we'd be there for a few episodes, at least.  I miss the days of Hamish and Mrs. Fitz and seeing the everyday life without always being horrified.

I think it's interesting that in the opening scene of the series, Claire looked at a vase and wanted to make a home for herself (and Frank) but never seemed to be able to do that.  I believe she asks herself what would have happened if she had just created a home for that vase...

Planning is not Claire or Jamie's strength!  Maybe the series would be boring if it were, but it does seem that they never learn from their experiences.

[ganesh]

2 hours ago, nara said:

BTW, did Claire make the connection between Geillis and the skull that Joe mentioned?

Yes, in the cave right before Claire stabbed her or whatever, they did a flashback/forward from Claire's pov where she put it together. 

I was very disappointed because I was hoping there would be some time battle or something over Brianna. 

With Claire making the decision to live out her life in the past, I'm hoping there's more to Brianna than the show being like, "hey, let's see what's going on in 1970 for a little while."

[Cdh20]

 Quote from Nara:

North Carolina also has some similarly gorgeous views.

Just yesterday I had a client tell me she just got back from a trip there & how beautiful it was! I thought that scenery at Fraser's Ridge was stunning! And nice to see you here as you always have interesting takes on the show.

And on another note-I'd run screaming from the skull, but I laughed when Claire put it in her purse- that was so Claire!

And Ian should be 17 if it's been about a year since Claire went back.

Edited November 23, 2018 by Cdh20
Putting in extra thoughts

[zoey1996]

I remember that Claire packed some more modern clothes, etc. when she was planning to go back through the stones, but I don’t remember boots with zippers.  

I never can tell when it’s real or CGI.  Loved the path/view taken by the two couples 200 years apart.

Roger said the engagement could be as long as Brianna liked, so she could have finished her degree at MIT and then got married.  I didn’t think he was that awful, considering it’s the 1970s, but they are clearly at different stages of their lives.  Not sure of the age difference, but he’s several years older than Brianna.

[Cdh20]

15 minutes ago, zoey1996 said:

I remember that Claire packed some more modern clothes, etc. when she was planning to go back through the stones, but I don’t remember boots with zippers.  

I never can tell when it’s real or CGI.  Loved the path/view taken by the two couples 200 years apart.

Roger said the engagement could be as long as Brianna liked, so she could have finished her degree at MIT and then got married.  I didn’t think he was that awful, considering it’s the 1970s, but they are clearly at different stages of their lives.  Not sure of the age difference, but he’s several years older than Brianna.

 I must go back & look at the boots Claire wore when she stepped out of the coach in Edinburgh in epi 305.

I think Roger is about  8 years older than Brianna.

[TaurusRose]

On 11/23/2018 at 12:33 PM, nara said:

I think that it's natural that she would assume Jamie would prefer the life as lord of the plantation.  Slavery or not, I think most people would choose a life of luxury over life in the wilderness.  Also, being a laird makes you responsible for the entire ecosystem on your land, so I actually think it's disappointing that they did not stay at River Run.  Yes, they would be forced to be slave owners, but they could have found a way to make the lives of the slaves and little less awful-- less brutal daily treatment, stopping rapes, etc.--even if they could not easily free the slaves.  I feel like Claire and Jamie put their own needs of how they want to perceive themselves above a real opportunity to help the slaves.  I think this is especially true of Claire, who is very black and while.  Jamie is typically more practical and nuanced in his thinking, so I am surprised and disappointed that he didn't try to stay. 

 

Right.  Jocasta's thinking is perfectly natural for someone born to believe her place is to lord it over others all the while thinking herself as a benevolent and kind task master.  I'm having a hard time keeping a civil tongue in my head after reading this.  "Slavery or not, I think most people would choose a life of luxury over life in the wilderness.”  Jocasta's life of luxury was threatened or damn near destroyed by the time she left Scotland, so her idea of reclaiming her life of luxury was to take steal the land from the people who were already living in the new world and to enslave others stolen from their homelands?  She's a hypocrite and the worst kind of monster.  Jamie and Claire made the correct decision.  They were not going to be forced into anything especially into being slave owners. Your comments are reminiscent of people making excuses to validate their mistreatment of other human beings simply because they don't look or behave like them.  It is a fairy tale that somehow J&C could make being a slave more tolerable to those being held in bondage.  Did you watch the previous episode?  Did you see how helpless they were in trying to save one slave from the "justice" of the white mob intent on teaching all concerned a lesson?  You are surprised Jamie didn't stay at River Run?  I'm amazed that so many of the Europeans who came to the new land were so quick to embrace the bondage, torture and rape of others when many of them had experienced almost the same treatment at the hands of the lords and ladies in their homelands.  They were not slaves, but they weren't too far from it and they were at the mercy of the nobility.  Jamie had experienced being held in bondage, he had endured rape and false imprisonment, not to mention torture.  He would have a very short memory indeed if he wanted to be put in the position to treat other people that way.

20 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

 Quote from Nara:

North Carolina also has some similarly gorgeous views.

 

I live in North Carolina and yes, we have some beautiful landscapes here.  I worry though because I fear the natural beauty in small places will become a distant memory due to all the OVER development.  

Edited November 24, 2018 by taurusrose

[nara]

2 hours ago, taurusrose said:

Right.  Jocasta's thinking is perfectly natural for someone born to believe her place is to lord it over others all the while thinking herself as a benevolent and kind task master.  I'm having a hard time keeping a civil tongue in my head after reading this.  "Slavery or not, I think most people would choose a life of luxury over life in the wilderness.”  Jocasta's life of luxury was threatened or damn near destroyed by the time she left Scotland, so her idea of reclaiming her life of luxury was to take steal the land from the people who were already living in the new world and to enslave others stolen from their homelands?  She's a hypocrite and the worst kind of monster.  Jamie and Claire made the correct decision.  They were not going to be forced into anything especially into being slave owners. Your comments are reminiscent of people making excuses to validate their mistreatment of other human beings simply because they don't look or behave like them.  It is a fairy tale that somehow J&C could make being a slave more tolerable to those being held in bondage.  Did you watch the previous episode?  Did you see how helpless they were in trying to save one slave from the "justice" of the white mob intent on teaching all concerned a lesson?  You are surprised Jamie didn't stay at River Run?  I'm amazed that so many of the Europeans who came to the new land were so quick to embrace the bondage, torture and rape of others when many of them had experienced almost the same treatment at the hands of the lords and ladies in their homelands.  They were not slaves, but they weren't too far from it and they were at the mercy of the nobility.  Jamie had experienced being held in bondage, he had endured rape and false imprisonment, not to mention torture.  He would have a very short memory indeed if he wanted to be put in the position to treat other people that way.

 

You are entitled to your opinion of me, but I have to disagree with you on the options available to Claire and Jamie.  Claire knows how much longer slavery will last in America.  Making life a little less unbearable for several generations of people would definitely have been worthwhile.

I did watch the previous episode.  Just because they were not able to stop a mob does not mean that they could not do things to improve the daily lives of the slaves.  (I doubt that the mob would come every day to River Run to interfere with how they run the plantation.  They came in response to a perceived attack on a white man for which a punishment was stopped.) Jamie could take over running the plantation and replace the overseer with someone of his own choosing.  We know from Season 2 that he is good at making friends and becoming influential, which over time might have earned River Run a little freedom to operate as they see fit.   Claire's medical skills could heal people injured during work or help pregnant women.  Between the two of them, they might be able to get the workers more food each day, or teach reading and writing, or convert River Run's crops to something less slave-dependent.  Is that as good as being able to free them? Of course, not, but the obstacles to freeing them seem insurmountable (at least, right now). After leaving River Run, they are no longer in a position to help the slaves in ANY way. 

I don't blame Claire and Jamie for not wanting to be involved with slavery.  However, IMO it's a missed opportunity to help the slaves, even in a small way.  Instead, they've chosen to leave and go where the slaves are out of sight, out of mind.  Of course, that might be a result of their futile attempts to prevent Culloden.  Personally, I would rather try to fix things from  inside an institution I despise, rather than simply moving away and burying my head in the sand.  I hope I'm wrong and Jamie and Claire remain aware of the slaves' plight and do things to help them.  Maybe they will become wealthy in a different way and exert influence and pressure on the plantation owners...but I'm not holding my breath.

[ganesh]

51 minutes ago, nara said:

Between the two of them, they might be able to get the workers more food each day, or teach reading and writing, or convert River Run's crops to something less slave-dependent.

Jamie had already suggested making more use of the land on the riverbank to grow rice. 

One of the things I don't get about the show. They did this in Jamaica. The show set up this whole new place and characters with all these things going on, and then they immediately left. Why should I bother being invested in any new characters if they're gone by the end of 50 minutes? 

I know this is based on the books, and I don't care to know anything about them, but I would think there's a lot of drama to be mined from being on the plantation and having your skin crawl about the slaves. But everything is binary with them. There's no nuanced forward thinking. 

Besides. Say they free all the slaves on the plantation. Sure, some might stay and work and get paid, but certainly there would be some who wanted to leave. So some other plantation owner happens upon them on the road. "No, we're not escaped, here's our papers." Sure, and the plantation owner is just going to let them go their merry way. 

55 minutes ago, nara said:

Claire knows how much longer slavery will last in America.

Florida wasn't a state yet, and they could have worked that escape route from Georgia too. 

[BitterApple]

I think the problem is any overseers working the plantation would quickly catch on. Word would get around and that would probably bring ten times more trouble to everyone involved. There was a violent mob at their doors because Claire gave Rufus medical care, imagine what would happen if the locals found out they were educating slaves and helping them escape?

For once, I think they did the right thing.

[ganesh]

Subtly not being Claire's strong point. I'm weighing it against getting stuck out in the woods versus a roof over their head. Honestly, they don't seem to know really what they want or what to do there, and they're not getting any younger. 

The obvious solution seems to me to go North to a city. They can both get work without much effort. They're also fooling themselves if they think they're going to while away the rest of their days in a nice cabin in North Carolina's woods. Neither of them can sit still for 5 minutes. 

[MadameKillerB]

On 11/19/2018 at 6:43 AM, Emkat said:

Jamie and Claire are so damn damp. No way they or their clothes got dry. Gag! 

I keep thinking of what that wet wool smells like. Rollo prob smells better! 😉

[Camera One]

I sort of liked the parallel storylines in two time periods in this episode.  Like the poster above, I enjoyed seeing Claire and Jaime ride along the same road that Brianna and Roger drove past, with the mountain in the distance.  I was hoping for more, though... I thought maybe they would stumble upon mentions of Fraser, maybe in that book Brianna gave Roger.  Or the stone circles we saw in the prehistoric flashback in the first episode of the season.  To freshen up the show, I think Brianna and Roger should travel back in time.

I groaned when Claire got lost.  I didn't like them introducing supernatural elements like the ghost and the mysteriously self-walking shoes, but I thought the skull with the silver fillings was intriguing, and I welcome a time-travel mystery back to the show.  I thought it was disrespectful for her to take the skull with her, though I liked that Claire talked to it.  I assumed that she was going to give it a proper burial.  Or the ghost led her to the river bank where the rest of the body was, so it could be buried.

I can't blame the aunt for being disappointed that Jaime turned down her offer, and accusing Claire of holding Jaime back.  If not for Claire, I think Jaime would have accepted taking over the estate.  He would have done a good job of managing it.

I liked that they were visiting a Scottish settlement, though I hope we actually get to see it soon.

The conversation between Claire and Jaime about their occupations was nice.  I wish there were more quieter episodes like this.  Claire saying Brianna would get bored and change her mind with what to study made it obvious that she would reject Roger's offer of marriage.  

Though Jaime saying that when he first met Claire, he was an outlaw and if he were alone, he would be an outlaw doesn't ring true.  Jaime was only an outlaw at the start because of Black Jack.  It wasn't by choice.  Being an outlaw after Culloden was also not really by choice.  Becoming a seditionist and a smuggling in Edinburgh *was* by choice and I thought it was out of character for him, but it was never explained.  I still don't understand why he isn't settling down in Lallybroch or why Claire is so insistent on them settling in a place which would be the site of a violent revolution.  Not to mention taking lands that belonged to the indigenous population for their farm.  But they'll be able to make do with minimal money to hire additional workers, right?  Are we going to flashforward another 2 years which it will take to clear the land for a farm or maybe another 3 for the farm to actually provide them a decent living?  Which would mean they would be pushing 60.

Edited April 3, 2021 by Camera One

[Anothermi]

I was so happy to finally learn what Brianna and Roger were up to—even if it was just being apart. I actually relaxed into the first 30 minutes. And I made it through the “FAKE-OUT!” Claire's-not-really-in-peril part equally happy that the show subverted my—by now—knee jerk expectations. The ratio of story progression in just one era to time-jump story telling is just about right. I needed this one right about now.

New things that I liked: 

• Ian is turning into a fine young Man—and learning fast. Great arguments regarding not being his parent's property for them, nor Jamie, to decide what life he will have. He HAS grown since we first met him.
• John Quincy Myers looks to be a candidate for becoming a recurring character—and I welcome him heartily.
• Claire getting lost without needing Jamie to rescue her from PERIL! AND she's seems to have acquired a spirit-guide-from-the-future. That came as an unexpected talent—and a welcome twist IMHO.
• Clarence: the Mule! Great character actor. 
• Roger is a singer? Yes! 
• Fiona: Mrs-Graham's-grandaugher, turns out to be Not!Leery but a lovely friend to Roger. Who'da thunk? I also loved the Scottish farewell toasts between them.
• Brianna is Gonna be an Engineer! Yay! (It's a Peggy Seeger song from the 1970s: https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=yeHRcY8toBg&list=RDAMVMyeHRcY8toBg )
• Brianna drives a (now vintage) Mustang! <wow whistle>
• Classic Outlander segue from future to past: Mustang (car) on the road in 1970 > to horse and cart on the same path in the 18th century. 

Other Stuff:

• I'm on team Brianna in the marry/ don't marry debate. I love me some Roger but he's stuck in 18th century morals. Very Jamie-like, yes. But Jamie is a product of that time and Roger is not. True Love: What's marriage got to do with it? It's just not a sixties/ seventies vibe.
• At one point I thought Claire was going to say something... thoughtful... “Jamie, those things you said yesterday about having nothing to give me... “ But Jamie cut her off with “Oh, dinna fash, Sassenach.” That pissed me right off. It's rare to have Claire make the self-reflective observation—and it didn't happen this time either.
• One of the portraits the camera panned to, at the Scottish fair, looked a lot like a modern-day Dougal! I guess with all the Scots who emigrated to North Carolina there'd have to be some other Mackenzie descendants besides Roger. But on that same line, there were no Frasers called for the Stag burning ceremony. Would that indicate Jamie and Claire didn't stay in that neck-of-the-woods long? 

Possible omens of future plotlines:

John Quincy Myers mentions that they are on land that now belongs to the Cherokee; that the Cherokee are brave and honourable fighters but that they do what they must to protect their lands from whoever tries to take them. Jamie echo's that he “dinna blame them”. 

By the end of the episode he's fallen in love with and decided to claim land that most likely is still in their territory! 

 

Edited July 28, 2021 by Anothermi

[Anothermi]

On 11/19/2018 at 5:30 AM, terrymct said:

 I thought Claire might treat the skull with respect after the guy went to all the trouble of showing up to her as a spirit, but no.  She leaves it laying there on the ground for a while, picks at it off and on, and totes it around with her in her sack.

Ah yes. Thanks for the reminder. I did think she was being very cavalier—in the worst sense—with another person's remains.  I even grumbled "leave it alone" when she started clearing the mud from the eye sockets. It's somewhat surprising that its spirit was so welcoming and helpful to her.  Hope we learn who it was.  

Could be someone we've already met, but I can't think of who?  She really only had Joe during her time and the spirit did NOT look like him.

[Anothermi]

On 4/2/2021 at 11:10 PM, Camera One said:

I can't blame the aunt for being disappointed that Jaime turned down her offer, and accusing Claire of holding Jaime back. 

I can imagine the flurry of indignant letters between Aunt Jocasta and Jenny-at-Lallyboch castigating Claire for failing to be a true Mackenzie wife. Or in Jenny's case—Mackenzie/Fraser wife. 

[Camera One]

10 hours ago, Anothermi said:

I was so happy to finally learn what Brianna and Roger were up to—even if it was just being apart. I actually relaxed into the first 30 minutes.

In hindsight, it was quite a few episodes before we checked in with Brianna and Roger again.  It was indeed more relaxing watching them since I didn't have to be on the edge of my seat thinking what danger would befall them.  Roger's behavior was disappointing.  I guess when we get to see more of a character, we will inevitably see their uglier side.  

I really like John Quincy Myers too, and Ian was definitely a highlight for me in the last two episodes.

Anyway, the split narrative in this episode was a welcomed change.

[gingerella]

Okay, so finally a S04 epi I didn't hate, yeah! Still though, we're plagued with the usual Claire and Jamie DRAMAZ! JHRC (I'm just abbreviating that from here on out because it takes too much time to type and I say it all the time now with this show). And while I enjoyed the updates from the 1970's, I didn't like the ADHD jumping back and forth with small snippets from the 1970's (most of the time), to the 1700's. Most of the 1970's scenes were very short and it made me feel a bit like I was watching a tennis match, whiplash.

Inverness 1970

I loved getting a Roger and Brianna update, and was so sad to see Roger clearing out of the Reverend's beautiful home. This left me with very practical thoughts like, did he sell the house to Fiona because if so how on earth could she afford it? It seemed like he just cleared out and is letting her live there, something about 'for the price of a jar of tears' or something like that? Makes me hope he still owns it, and that one day he and Brianna will live there, sort of like a reverse of Claire going to America with Jamie, and their daughter going from America to the Scottish Highlands for love. Wishful thinking, that! And then there's the question of where all the lovely antique furniture went! They just don't think we'll notice this stuff do they?

So R&B are headed to NC, and so are J&C, interesting parallels. The fade from the NC highway to the same road but as a trail in the 1700's was very nice indeed.

Did Brianna really stuff that drawing into her handbag? WTH girl?! Go put it in your car for safe keeping, not scrunched in your handbag. DUH. That was so Claire-like!

Since when does Roger play the guitar and sing music in such a known way that he'd be invited to a Scottish Clan festival in NC, USA? I smell bullshit on that one.

SHALLOW NOTE ALERT: Apparently, I dinna mind a gent man spreading if'n he's wearin' a kilt, ye ken? Yes, I'm shallow like that, you probably are too!

Roger has always come across as so sweet and rather innocent, like a young Jamie except without the outlaw baggage. But the intensity with which he reacted at a proposal that came out of the blue considering he told Fi that they've barely kept in touch over the past year or two, I mean come on dude, give the lady some space! I felt for him because it's the first time we've seen him be so direct about his feelings for Brianna, but it also felt very aggressive, I mean his reaction would have been more understandable if he'd been in Boston this entire time since last we saw him, and they'd been seeing each other all this time and then she gave him the "I'm not ready for marriage" reaction. But having barely spent any time together, it seemed overbearing to me. I was surprised to hear Brianna was a virgin though, I hadn't pegged her for being so demure in that respect as she puts out a very modern, liberated woman vibe. When Roger said he he'd wanted to bed her he'd have had her on her back last summer, that was harsh and felt very not Roger-esque. Anyway, I felt Roger was just being a pouty baby, with not being willing to talk to Brianna about how she feels. And when they lit the stag all I could think of was, well, Roger's plan literally went up in flames.

North Carolina, 1767

I loved, I mean LOVED Ian's rant to Jamie about what he's seen and experienced thus far in their journey together:

"...So far I've been set upon by pirates, twice, kidnapped, sailed into a hurricane...before we came here I was a boy, I'm a man now...A man writes his own letters..."  I fucking love Ian, and the actor who plays him is fantastic, he never disappoints and has become sort of the Greek Choir of the show.

Jamie tells Aunt Jocasta that they are planning to travel west, which he seems to contradict later in the episode, so weird comment if they're not going west.  Also, I can understand Jocasta's mindset, Jamie arrives with a wife and nephew in tow and has not a coin to his name, and she is offering him a life that would take a life time to build if he were to start from nothing. It would allow him to lay the world at Claire's feet, as he says later on, and I do think he could have done some good at River Run, and perhaps worked within the system to affect change regarding slavery, but that's a big job and J&C don't ever seem to have the patience to let things come to fruition, they always seem to want immediate results, so I guess that was never in the cards for them. But I can't hate on Jocasta for what she said, I get it. She sees/senses his leadership and charismatic qualities and knows he could do good things as her heir, but as usual, it's Claire's demands and wants that guide Jamie's decision making. Not to say he wanted to be a slave owner, but I think he'd have taken her up on her offer had it not been for Claire, and he'd have done so with the mindset to try to make positive changes along the way.

As soon as they took off from River Run I was on pins and needles waiting for that asshole, Bonnet, to rob them yet again. And when Myer said, "the lad will be safe" I thought to myself, famous last words on this show...it never turns out well! Though perhaps it's not violence but what happens at the trading post, I've a feeling that Ian's a bit too enthralled with getting together with an Indian woman and thus, I am fully expecting him to not come back with Myer because he's taken up with an Indian lass. That's our Ian...Jenny would be horrified to be sure!

The turkey's made me laugh, are they really only found in North America?

As soon as Claire went off after the mule, whom I adore, I knew shit was going down. But I thought Bonnet would find her and attack her yet again since he didn't get the gold ring from her. This formula is so predictable now you know when bad shit's coming. And that lightening strike on that tree scared the shit out of me! Given what happened to that tree, was it really smart, Claire, to take refuge under another tree? And one with a gully under it, so, yanno, water would have collected where she was sitting? And she just happens to find a skull and opal? Really? And following the bootmarks of someone who stole your boots after you've seen what appears to be a ghost? Is THAT a good idea? I mean, it was in the end but I'm not sure I'd have done that! How many times do these two nitwits need to be lost and found to one another? It's ridiculous at this point, the show has played that card so often that it's just become an eye roller for me now.

I did like the realization that the skull was from another time traveler, that was a nice reminder that this IS a time travel tale. I know some want to ignore that part because it's not understandable right now, but we wouldn't have a love story without the time travel portion, so I enjoyed this and wonder if we know the chap, or if we will find out who he is. So many things for Claire seem to be woven into her future and things that seem like coinky dinks just can't be, they have to be deliberate on the power of the cosmos or whatever channels time travelers to wherever they are sent. So I hope we find out who this skull belonged to.

The ending was a bit hokey for me. They see the wild strawberries, and the name Fraser is derived from the french word for strawberry, Fraise. In heraldry one of the symbols on the Fraser coat of arms is called a strawberry flower or a fraise. So I get the connection, but declaring that land "Fraser's Ridge" when they both know that Native Americans already live there rings very hollow to me. They wont' take up as heirs to Jocasta's River Run, but they'll just land grab 'Fraser's Ridge' when they know that Native Americans live there and it's not the British's land to give in the first place? I'm calling bullshit on that.

 

 

[Anothermi]

11 minutes ago, gingerella said:

It seemed like he just cleared out and is letting her live there, something about 'for the price of a jar of tears' or something like that?

I mentioned loving the Scottish farewell gestures between them. Roger's—when he gave her the jar of salt—was "Well... congratulations on your new home. Salt, for life's tears. May they always be happy ones. May ye have flavour in your life."  Very lovely and symbolic.  And his toast was "May the roof above never fall in, and may we below never fall out."  Roger has the soul of a Bard. 

I got the impression that he had finally acted on 1) his love for Brianna (which Fiona mentioned) and, 2) the fact that the house was way too big for him—which he'd mentioned the first time he met her back in S02.  He was upping stakes and following his heart with the (old romantic) notion of winning his true love. I expect he sold it to Fiona and her man for a song—but for enough to support him (and Brianna) for a good long while. 

I also wonder if the lovely ballad he sang—and wrote if I understood his intro that it would be "something different" correctly—was meant as a metaphor for his and Brianna's relationship? Not that HE meant it that way. Scots are well known for their laments so the song was generic in that way—but from a story perspective. 

14 minutes ago, gingerella said:

Did Brianna really stuff that drawing into her handbag? WTH girl?! Go put it in your car for safe keeping, not scrunched in your handbag. DUH. That was so Claire-like!

Yep. But with Claire it's bits of someone's skeleton. But I'll bet she'd shove a recently drawn portrait in there with it if it came to that. And it would come out without a wrinkle!!!

I, too, thought shoving the "only picture of us together" into her handbag was not a good idea.  I eased up a bit when I realized how big the handbag  was (or is that shoulder bag?). Still I know from experience that paper needs something to support and protect it from getting wrinkled so I'm still with you on your outrage. 

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

Roger has always come across as so sweet and rather innocent, like a young Jamie except without the outlaw baggage.

The more I think about it the more is seems like Roger is "Frank" in this relationship—even though there is no biological connection they are alike in personality.

This part is more like Jamie:   He's loved Brianna practically since he first saw her and has a very clear idea of what their life together would be—forever.  His love is expressed in NOT "bedding" her because she means so much more than that primal urge to him. He will always love her.

This part is like Frank:   She belongs to him. He needs her to agree that her love for him is a solid as his is for her.  He wants her to tell him she feels the same about him—he even says they don't have to marry for a long time. He just needs to know that she will always be his.  Right now he's a walking romantic tragedy. 

He and Brianna aren't even speaking the same language! OK, literally they are, but they mean vastly different things.

 SHE can't make the same commitment because she knows that she hasn't lived enough to say that and keep to it—especially based on her awareness of her mother's experience. She knows she cares a lot about Roger—and is demonstrative about it—but she doesn't know if it is permanent or passing. He's been unable to read her actions. When she offers a physical relationship as a next level he reads it as a statement that she feels the same as he does. Assumptions! On both parts. Gah!

49 minutes ago, gingerella said:

Jamie tells Aunt Jocasta that they are planning to travel west, which he seems to contradict later in the episode, so weird comment if they're not going west.

A brief internet search resulted in information that the "Scotch-Irish" settled in large numbers across the BlueRidge and Allegheny Mountains in the backcountry of southwest NC. So generally west. Certainly as west as most settlements went back then. I had to remind myself that their concept of "west" fits within our concept of eastern USA.

 

[Anothermi]

Further thoughts on the Brianna/Roger impasse. In my post above, I forgot to include that Brianna stated out loud to Roger that she doesn't think she believes in marriage. And that is the crux of the issue. Brianna is living in a time when feminism is impacting many women's lives and they are questioning the role that marriage plays in relation to the wider opportunities available to them.  Even in 1970 marriage gave men significant control over his wife and much of what she could or couldn't do. Feminist minded women were wondering what marriage gave them?—given that they could now support themselves financially. The commitment of marriage was NOT one of love but of control. For many women it was not even a promise to support and protect much less cherish and respect. Women like Brianna could see that a meeting of souls did not need a piece of government paper to exist. Roger—like Frank—put his trust in the institution that gave him rights over the woman he loved rather than in his own effort to keep the bond between them alive. That's what is remarkable about Jamie's character. He believes in both the commitment before his God and within himself to his soul mate. 

So Brianna was signalling that she was willing to make a commitment to Roger with her body in hopes that it would bring them closer, and Roger was unable to process that she was indeed willing because he only accepted the one, legally sanctioned way.

~~~~~~~~~

Re: where Claire and Jamie were when they found their dream home.  I thought they weren't far from Woolam's Creek based on the conversation with Ian and Myers. They were splitting off to go to the trading post and would take the wagon. They would then meet back up with Claire and Jamie at Woolam's Creek. So, I assumed that location wasn't so far away that C & J would be days on the road still. 

Therefore the ill advised choice of settling at the idyllic Fraser's Ridge would still mean they'd not be far from the village where they would get supplies and have access to other social contact. 

I could be wrong though. I don't have a great batting average on this sort of thing. 

Edited July 28, 2021 by Anothermi

[Camera One]

1 hour ago, Anothermi said:

The commitment of marriage was NOT one of love but of control. 

To me, it's not necessary true that men just want marriage for control.  Of course, that could be the case, but not all men are like that.  I don't dislike Roger for believing in marriage or for feeling hurt that Brianna didn't want to commit to him.  My main problem was how he was so hypocritical that he wasn't a virgin but his future wife had to be, and for lashing out so cruelly and immaturely when he was rejected, as if he were entitled to what he wanted.

Quote

I thought they weren't far from Woolam's Creek based on the conversation with Ian and Myers. They were splitting off to go to the trading post and would take the wagon. They would then meet back up with Claire and Jamie at Woolam's Creek. So, I assumed that location wasn't so far away that C & J would be days on the road still. 

That was my interpretation as well.  I imagined back then they would basically be building new farms close to the last newly purchased and settled plot of land.

Quote

But with Claire it's bits of someone's skeleton. But I'll bet she'd shove a recently drawn portrait in there with it if it came to that. And it would come out without a wrinkle!!!

LOL!  I recently put a piece of paper into my backpack carefully, and indeed, it came out crumpled.  I knew it when I put it in there though, but I was *really* hoping that it would be okay just like I saw on TV.

5 hours ago, gingerella said:

Most of the 1970's scenes were very short and it made me feel a bit like I was watching a tennis match, whiplash.

Editors: Surely, you don't expect us to cut scenes of Claire wandering around lost and Jaime looking for her, LOL.

Quote

I loved getting a Roger and Brianna update, and was so sad to see Roger clearing out of the Reverend's beautiful home. This left me with very practical thoughts like, did he sell the house to Fiona because if so how on earth could she afford it?

I thought that was a little sad too.  

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Since when does Roger play the guitar and sing music in such a known way that he'd be invited to a Scottish Clan festival in NC, USA?

Forgotten history:  There was The Beatles, and then there was Roger.

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Roger has always come across as so sweet and rather innocent.  I felt for him because it's the first time we've seen him be so direct about his feelings for Brianna, but it also felt very aggressive. When Roger said he he'd wanted to bed her he'd have had her on her back last summer, that was harsh and felt very not Roger-esque.

That's why I thought it all felt rather out of character, but then again, I suppose we didn't really know much about him?  It really makes me think that one needs to be careful about seeing more of a favorite character, because you never know what you're going to get, and in this case, it was pouty baby, as you said.

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The turkey's made me laugh, are they really only found in North America?

Yes, I can totally imagine why Europeans found them odd.

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So I get the connection, but declaring that land "Fraser's Ridge" when they both know that Native Americans already live there rings very hollow to me. They wont' take up as heirs to Jocasta's River Run, but they'll just land grab 'Fraser's Ridge' when they know that Native Americans live there and it's not the British's land to give in the first place? I'm calling bullshit on that.

That felt weird to me too.  Like we'll draw the moral line here, but not there.  Just go back to Scotland to your own land.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Camera One

[Anothermi]

35 minutes ago, Camera One said:

To me, it's not necessary true that men just want marriage for control.  Of course, that could be the case, but not all men are like that.

Just to be clear. I wasn't trying to imply that was the only reason why (any) man wanted marriage. However, it was something they knew existed and would expect—if push came to shove.  For many it was much like Jamie viewed it. 

My point was more about how women were starting to view marriage.  It was no longer the trade off that-could-be-to-their-benefit.  If they wanted to be their own person they really had to know that the prospective husband would not use his legal rights to prevent them. 

[gingerella]

On 7/28/2021 at 6:10 PM, Camera One said:

To me, it's not necessary true that men just want marriage for control.  Of course, that could be the case, but not all men are like that.  I don't dislike Roger for believing in marriage or for feeling hurt that Brianna didn't want to commit to him.  My main problem was how he was so hypocritical that he wasn't a virgin but his future wife had to be, and for lashing out so cruelly and immaturely when he was rejected, as if he were entitled to what he wanted.

I've been thinking about this and I think we have to remember a few things about Roger - he didn't grow up with a mother and father to give him an example of what a loving couple looks like so he can't model something he hasn't experienced. His parents died when he was a toddler or younger, so all he's ever known as a parental figure is his uncle, Rev. Wakefield. A reverend. A man of the cloth. So despite Roger not being a virgin himself, I do have to remind myself that he was basically raised as a reverend's son and thus I can understand why, to him, it's important that he not have premarital sex with the woman he wants to marry, unless she's already agreed to marry him, regardless of how long the engagement will be. I think he loves her desperately, and while I see him have some aspects of personality that we could say are similar to Frank, I think he's got a lot of Jamie within him too. He is soulful and poetic, like Jamie is, and I can't take his anger towards Brianna rejecting his proposal as him being angry because he's not in control. I think he's so desperately in love with Brianna that he just wants to seal the deal and know that they are going to happen. He's left his home, literally, his country, to tell her he loves her and wants to marry her, and they were about to have sex when he gets a big fat slap in the face of reality. Sorry, you're moving too fast. Sorry, I'm not ready. Sorry, I might not ever be ready because I might never believe in marriage (wait til your daddy hears about that lass!). Roger banked a lot on this trip and it's not panning out for him at all. I'll be interested to see if we get more updates next episode and where these two stand with one another. I feel like they still are fated to be together, at least Brianna is a mirror of Claire in how she is so blunt and direct with people, even if it hurts them.

So I'm giving ol Rog a pass right now. He's had a rough few days. He's jetlagged. He just had to perform at a Scottish Clan hootinanny in America where people of Scottish descent play Scottish for the weekend, and he's the token 'real' Scotsman'. And he just had his lady reject his proposal.

As for the event itself, I guess he accepted because they flew him there and put him up for this gig, but why does he give a shit so much that Brianna is by his side when the clans are called ceremony? Who gives a shit?! It's America, not Scotland. I thought that part was weird, that he cared so much. If it was an event in Inverness, then I'd totally understand.

On 7/28/2021 at 6:10 PM, Camera One said:

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So I get the connection, but declaring that land "Fraser's Ridge" when they both know that Native Americans already live there rings very hollow to me. They wont' take up as heirs to Jocasta's River Run, but they'll just land grab 'Fraser's Ridge' when they know that Native Americans live there and it's not the British's land to give in the first place? I'm calling bullshit on that.

That felt weird to me too.  Like we'll draw the moral line here, but not there.  Just go back to Scotland to your own land.

Thank you for seeing that too. It felt very hypocritical to me.

On 7/28/2021 at 6:53 PM, Anothermi said:

My point was more about how women were starting to view marriage.  It was no longer the trade off that-could-be-to-their-benefit.  If they wanted to be their own person they really had to know that the prospective husband would not use his legal rights to prevent them. 

I think Brianna has a lot of ^this^ rolling around in her head right now. She's recently found out that her mother had another husband and she is the result of that union. Frank, her daddy, wasn't really her bio dad. And that her mother was desperately unhappy, nee miserable, with Frank, and was deeply in love with Jamie, a father whom she doesn't know and who lived 200+ years before her. So she's got a lot of shit going on, and I can also see from her side, how she would think that marriage isn't all that.

[gingerella]

I just did a quick re-watch of this episode and wanted to add that they really need to give more info re: the time travel aspect. I know I said above that Claire finding that skull and realizing it he was a time traveler is interesting, but not if they leave it hanging. We got resolution on the skeleton found in the cave in Jamaica, okay. But who is this fellow? There isn't even a suspect yet. At least when Claire saw the skeleton in her and Joe's office, we already had met the lady seer and we thought it might be her. But this guy, I have not even a wild guess. Does anyone else?

Also, Roger and Brianna are at that Scottish festival in the mountains of North Carolina, yes? Which is where Fraser's Ridge would have been, yes? If Jamie and Claire homesteaded in the place we leave them at at the end of this episode, and that is North Carolina, and so many Scots settled in the larger area, then why wouldn't Clan Fraser have been called to the Stag burning? I mean, I assume J&C don't have another child at this point in life, but there is Fergus and he's now taken on the Fraser surname, so surely he and Marceli have kids? And they in turn have kids, all of which would be Frasers. And what about Murrays if Ian is staying there? You'd think there'd be some legacy left behind there, wouldn't you?