S04.E03: The False Bride

[Anothermi]

56 minutes ago, gingerella said:

Also, Roger and Brianna are at that Scottish festival in the mountains of North Carolina, yes? Which is where Fraser's Ridge would have been, yes? If Jamie and Claire homesteaded in the place we leave them at at the end of this episode, and that is North Carolina, and so many Scots settled in the larger area, then why wouldn't Clan Fraser have been called to the Stag burning?

I mentioned this is my original post as well. It led me to assume that this area may not have been populated by Frasers due to J, C and co moving on for some reason. They are always getting into situations where leaving for other parts is the solution are they not? 

So yeah.  I don't want to have to wait through a bunch of episodes that don't address the new time traveler. Nor to be left hanging about why no Fraser descendants were called at the event in Brianna and Roger's time. They are just too big—as mysteries—to be left unanswered.

[Cdh20]

You are going so slow now, you won’t be done by the end of the year? Lol

@gingerella

@anothermi

@Pallas

[gingerella]

3 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

You are going so slow now, you won’t be done by the end of the year? Lol

@gingerella

@anothermi

@Pallas

That's because the level of shite thrown at us takes a week to digest before we can swallow anymore BS!

[Scarlett45]

On 7/30/2021 at 11:00 PM, gingerella said:

I've been thinking about this and I think we have to remember a few things about Roger - he didn't grow up with a mother and father to give him an example of what a loving couple looks like so he can't model something he hasn't experienced. His parents died when he was a toddler or younger, so all he's ever known as a parental figure is his uncle, Rev. Wakefield. A reverend. A man of the cloth. So despite Roger not being a virgin himself, I do have to remind myself that he was basically raised as a reverend's son and thus I can understand why, to him, it's important that he not have premarital sex with the woman he wants to marry, unless she's already agreed to marry him, regardless of how long the engagement will be. I think he loves her desperately, and while I see him have some aspects of personality that we could say are similar to Frank, I think he's got a lot of Jamie within him too. He is soulful and poetic, like Jamie is, and I can't take his anger towards Brianna rejecting his proposal as him being angry because he's not in control. I think he's so desperately in love with Brianna that he just wants to seal the deal and know that they are going to happen. He's left his home, literally, his country, to tell her he loves her and wants to marry her, and they were about to have sex when he gets a big fat slap in the face of reality. Sorry, you're moving too fast. Sorry, I'm not ready. Sorry, I might not ever be ready because I might never believe in marriage (wait til your daddy hears about that lass!). Roger banked a lot on this trip and it's not panning out for him at all. I'll be interested to see if we get more updates next episode and where these two stand with one another. I feel like they still are fated to be together, at least Brianna is a mirror of Claire in how she is so blunt and direct with people, even if it hurts them.

I understood all of that about Roger during the first viewing, I understand why he wanted to propose to Brianna (even if they had a long engagement) and him being shocked when he was turned down.

But what really turned me off was the NASTY ATTITUDE he pulled when she suggest they KEEP DATING and see where it went. People dated in 1970 (even minister's kids). She didn't tell him to go away and never call her again. For me his reaction was about not getting HIS WAY, not about them as a couple and maybe being together.

It reminded me (on the flip side of the coin), if a guy comes onto you sexually, and you say you're not interesting in having sex (that day) but you are interested in him/seeing where things go, and him coping a fucking attitude, "how dare you not want to have sex with me the when I say you should', Roger was "how dare you not want to marry me when I say its time to get engaged?" they had not even been courting/dating that long, or consistently at all. 

Being raised by his uncle the Rev, he was not likely taught to speak to women that way. Especially the woman he says he wants to marry. Its not exactly chivalrous. A better way to have them write the scene wouldve been to have him hurt by her rejection of the proposal and ask 'Why?' and then question about "well if you dont believe in marriage should we proceed?' and take the nasty attitude and what we would call in the 21st century "slut shaming" out of it.

Again Roger was so entitled in that episode. 

[gingerella]

@Scarlett45, yeah, when you lay it out that way, I do see what you're saying. And yes, he was very bitchy to her when he said "If you don't care enough to marry me, I don't care enough to have you in my bed." Brianna was shocked at that retort, and it was very bitchy and petulant. I think he was wound up and thought there was no way she'd not accept his proposal. What he should have done is asked if they could live together in Boston and see where things went because he loved her and wanted to be with her. She might have accepted that offer, but I suspect he wanted his wife to be the last person he slept with, and that if he was to bed Brianna he'd want to know they were going to marry. To be honest, he's not that different from Jamie in that respect, except Jamie had way more tact with Claire when explaining why, for example, he couldn't sleep on the floor in her room at the inn, or why he never tried to make a move on her, physically, because he just wouldn't do that without marriage. Roger's very similar in that regard, except he's bringing a hautiness into the mix that isn't becoming of him.

[Scarlett45]

14 minutes ago, gingerella said:

@Scarlett45, yeah, when you lay it out that way, I do see what you're saying. And yes, he was very bitchy to her when he said "If you don't care enough to marry me, I don't care enough to have you in my bed." Brianna was shocked at that retort, and it was very bitchy and petulant. I think he was wound up and thought there was no way she'd not accept his proposal. What he should have done is asked if they could live together in Boston and see where things went because he loved her and wanted to be with her. She might have accepted that offer, but I suspect he wanted his wife to be the last person he slept with, and that if he was to bed Brianna he'd want to know they were going to marry. To be honest, he's not that different from Jamie in that respect, except Jamie had way more tact with Claire when explaining why, for example, he couldn't sleep on the floor in her room at the inn, or why he never tried to make a move on her, physically, because he just wouldn't do that without marriage. Roger's very similar in that regard, except he's bringing a hautiness into the mix that isn't becoming of him.

Yeah, that line was FULL of petulant behavior. It was nasty and awful, and if Roger wants to play the "I am the man and the leader." then you don't get be a haughty baby, you have to LEAD. A "Jaime type", wouldn't have insulted Brianna's virtue in that way, a more appropriate wouldve been "Why do you not want to marry me? I thought you were serious about us?" Even throwing in a line like "We do not need to share a bed until we know where we stand."- PERFECTLY FINE.

But Roger said that to humiliate her and make her feel dirty for wanting to have sex with him, it was an asshole thing to do. 17th century Jaime, I cannot see him doing that; and Roger has a lot more language to describe what he was feeling. Yeah he was raised by a single dad, but he went to typical 20th century school, had girl friends etc etc.

 

[gingerella]

5 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Yeah, that line was FULL of petulant behavior. It was nasty and awful, and if Roger wants to play the "I am the man and the leader." then you don't get be a haughty baby, you have to LEAD. A "Jaime type", wouldn't have insulted Brianna's virtue in that way, a more appropriate wouldve been "Why do you not want to marry me? I thought you were serious about us?" Even throwing in a line like "We do not need to share a bed until we know where we stand."- PERFECTLY FINE.

But Roger said that to humiliate her and make her feel dirty for wanting to have sex with him, it was an asshole thing to do. 17th century Jaime, I cannot see him doing that; and Roger has a lot more language to describe what he was feeling. Yeah he was raised by a single dad, but he went to typical 20th century school, had had girl friends etc etc.

 

Agree with all the above. And yet, I still want these two numnuts together, what does that say about me?!

[Scarlett45]

1 minute ago, gingerella said:

Agree with all the above. And yet, I still want these two numnuts together, what does that say about me?!

I think its good Brianna has someone that knows about her family, her Mom's trip to the past etc. That has to be isolating. (never mind being an only child with both of your parents gone!) If she is willing to forgive him for that little stint, that is her choice.  

[SassAndSnacks]

I'm a little behind on the forum thanks to a few tumultuous weeks, so I won't weigh in on all of the things mentioned so far.  Two things that did bug me about this one - 

1. Why was Roger selected to call Clan MacKenzie at the Gathering?  Yeah, he's truly Scottish, but it makes no sense otherwise.  He isn't American, and this is a heritage festival for Americans.  Surely there were other MacKenzies?  

2. I think this was mentioned.  Why were there no Frasers?  

I feel like there were a few continuity errors in this one.  Overall, I enjoyed the segues from past to present.  Lovely.  

[mythoughtis]

Roger was not only raised by a single reverend, he was raised by an elderly one.  He is also  several years older than Brianna.  His beliefs about marriage are about 20-30 years behind Brianna. More similar to Claire’s - who is still wearing a wedding ring from  a man she no longer loved.. one that asked for a divorce and  that has now been dead two years.  She’s wearing it  even though she is no  longer wearing Jamie’s ( which was stolen). 
in addition, Roger  considers himself a friend of Brianna’s mother and a distant relative of Jamie. He’s going to consider that when sleeping with Brianna. 

Edited August 26, 2022 by mythoughtis