S14.E05: Nightmare Logic

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't pay any attention to anything anybody associated with the shows says about the show.  I think I'm a much happier person for it:)  I just watch what's on the screen.

Definitely the best way to watch. And this speaks to it:

4 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

This is how I feel.  Because he really is being one. 

Plus, I still can't think of a reason why these people would follow Chief in the first place.  They should have wanted Michael dead.  If FakeBobby lost a son in the war it makes more sense that Bobby would be leading the AU hunters against Michael rather than them acting like Sam is the 2nd coming. 

Nothing about this story feels organic

Because they did say that the AU hunters were going to have issues with Sam. The only thing I can think is that *maybe* it comes later if/when Michael repossesses Dean.

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

The thing that just bugs me about this entire storyline is that there is no verbal acknowledgment whatsoever of Dean`s leadership skills when easily Sam could at least commiserate with Dean on the hardship and the burdens of it. The storyline is like Mary, ignoring Dean`s very existance.

Or, Sam asking Dean if he wants to take the reins and Dean being like "Nah."  Or, Dean saying "I'm glad you've got this, because I'm in no shape to be leading people right now."

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

Or, Sam asking Dean if he wants to take the reins and Dean being like "Nah."  Or, Dean saying "I'm glad you've got this, because I'm in no shape to be leading people right now."

Or Sam saying, hey Dean I can't do this on my own.  Maybe you could take over the field stuff and training your better at that part than I am."

[Aeryn13]

Quote

 Or, Dean saying "I'm glad you've got this, because I'm in no shape to be leading people right now."

I don`t want another round of Dean declaring himself weak so I`d prefer something like "I`ll help if/when you want me to but I gotta put my focus on Michael right now". Anything that acknowledges that Dean HAS the ability and skills.

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I don`t want another round of Dean declaring himself weak so I`d prefer something like "I`ll help if/when you want me to but I gotta put my focus on Michael right now". Anything that acknowledges that Dean HAS the ability and skills.

I don't really think that would be being weak.  He's obviously got some PTSD going on and dealing with people is exhausting.

[Bergamot]

7 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

I just LOOOOVE how Sam's insecurities about being a leader are given more screentime than Dean's trauma from archangel possession. And Mary fawns all over Sam, but I don't think she's said a single complimentary thing about Dean, in or out of his presence, since her return in season 12. Not one comforting word to him in this episode, either. 

Mobby still squicks me out due to the chasmic 30+ year age gap, and I also just don't care. Mary would prefer spending time with her new boy toy than her own sons, one of whom is still struggling with a massive trauma? Fine, it's not like I was expecting anything more from her at this point. She can go gallivanting off with Bobby all she wants, as long as she's off my screen. 

 

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Meanwhile Mary couldn't even pretend to slightly care about Dean. At this point she'd blankly step over his corpse.

Yes, I think that Aeryn wins the prize for summing up the Mary and Dean relationship. The show couldn't even be bothered to give them one conversation together where she asked how he was doing, told him he could talk to her if he needed to, told him they would find a way to fix things. It was so much more important that she have that conversation with AU Bobby, I guess. Could the show's writers make it any clearer how unimportant Mary's relationship with Dean is to them? I mean, it's not like he is one of the stars of the show or anything, and it's not like losing Mary as a child is one of the fundamental parts of his character.

And if the writers think they somehow fixed that at the very end by having her earnestly tell him that she and Bobby were only a few hours away, they were wrong. It looked to me as if the only reason Mary turned to say something to Dean right then is because Bobby drew Sam aside and so she was stuck talking with Dean, like when you are at a party and you are forced to make conversation with the person standing next to you. I actually liked the brevity of Dean's "Mom -- go. All right?" I feel as if he has tried to disconnect himself from her emotionally, and I can't say that's a bad thing. Mary doesn't deserve a son like Dean.

[Bobcatkitten]

I was pretty bored by the episode. I thought we would get to see what everyone's nightmares were/are but only Bobby, and I'm not feeling the Bobby/Mary stuff. 

 

Good for Dean figuring it out. How long was he hanging out with the daughter? Sam found Maggie but never came back. That was odd. 

 

I think it was ridiculous that any AU!Hunters - much less Maggie - are on a solo hunt. Hunters generally hunt in pairs so why would she be by herself? Especially after, what, a few months at best? 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I don't really think that would be being weak.  He's obviously got some PTSD going on and dealing with people is exhausting.

At this point in Dabb-natural and especially after the fun third episode of "lets trash weak Dean", I`m very sensitive to any kind of dialogue that is all about how Dean can`t do things. The show doing it so relentlessly in the first place is the reason why all my tolerance has faded away. So the phrasing is really key for me.   

[Bobcatkitten]

I also agree with those pointing out that we have had far more in the season on Sam being a leader than Dean being possessed by an archangel. 

[Bergamot]

2 hours ago, trudysmom said:

When Bobby let Sam have it, blamed him for Maggie going missing, I was ready to turn off my tv if Dean was going to step in and defend Sam.  Luckily mommy did that and then split them up so she could coddle Sammy, but I fully expected Dean to be the one to tell Bobby he was wrong. 

Well, Dean did tell Bobby how hard Sam is working at being the Chief -- no food, no sleep. Good grief, how many times this season has there been a discussion about Sam not getting enough sleep? Yeah, we GET it, he is only sleeping 3 hours a night. Unlike the show's writers, though, I don't particularly see this as a sign of being a great leader. All it means to me is that Sam has a problem with time management and with delegating, which is kind of the opposite of being a successful leader. Maybe he could take a workplace seminar on it, if he can find the time. That would be about as interesting to watch in my opinion.

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I think Dean is like me.  He just doesn't care about the bunker full of hutners, so why on earth would he want to lead them?  Let Sam do it, if he wants. They are responsible for them, because they promised that they would only come to this universe until they could regroup and send them back.  I hope once they find Michael, the first thing they do is take some of his grace, open a rift, and boot the hunters back where they belong.

I don't know, I have a feeling that the "bunker full of hunters" is here to stay on the show.  I find them irritating and dull -- not to mention a drastic re-imaging of what hunters are --  but like I said, if they all leave, Sam won't have a group of people to be the leader of. And I don't think Dabb is going to let anything tear that storyline away from him. He made it very clear from the first episode of the season how important he thinks it is.

When this episode showed us the crowd in the bunker, all sitting around polishing their guns, I couldn't help remembering Kripke's comments on the Roadhouse, how when he saw the scene with all the hunters sitting there polishing their guns, he realized that it wasn't a good idea and wanted to get rid of them. He was pretty funny about it. The difference is that I think Kripke's main motivation was primarily tell a good story, and I think he tried to make decisions based on that. Times have changed though.

[Katy M]

35 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Hunters generally hunt in pairs so why would she be by herself? Especially after, what, a few months at best? 

not really. Eileen hunted alone. Gordon said he was  a "go it alone kind of guy" except when he worked with Kubrick, I guess.  Jo said her dad usually worked alone and so did John. Richie appeared to be solo hunting.  Bobby went on that dreamwalker hunt alone.  Don't get me wrong.  I think hunting alone is stupid.  But, there is show precedence for it.

[Pondlass1]

The hunters in the bunker are reminiscent of The Potentials storyline in Buffy (one of which was Felicia BTW).  The Potentials were annoying and killed the series in the end.  And that's what the bunker hunters and furrowed brow Chief Sam are doing.  They're dull and predictable and seeing miscellaneous people milling about our bunker is disconcerting.

 It's kind of funny in a way, because Dabb and his writers are inadvertently making Dean and his protected meatsuit and the fact that supernatural monsters have been altered a much more intriguing storyline.

They didn't show us hardly any Michael in early episodes, but he obviously was busy.  And he's clever (a talent missing from most Big Bads of late).  He's messed with monsters to confuse hunters.  I remember Jensen saying something about everything in Dad's journal being thrown out the window now.  And I'm assuming he's protected his Dean meatsuit for future use.  

But where is Michael? And who's body is he wearing?  He's surely burning through them.  Wouldn't he be leaving a trail?  Wouldn't Sam's laptop flag this kind of occurrence ?  

Anyway I see a bright spark on a dim horizon.  I think Michael will return to Dean.  And I'm hoping for a battle of minds and strength of character.

(It won't happen, of course.  But I am crossing fingers).

Edited November 9, 2018 by Pondlass1

[Bergamot]

16 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

The hunters in the bunker are reminiscent of The Potentials storyline in Buffy (one of which was Felicia BTW).  The Potentials were annoying and killed the series in the end.  And that's what the bunker hunters and furrowed brow Chief Sam are doing.  They're just dull and predictable. 

 It's kind of funny in a way, because Dabb and his writers are inadvertently making Dean and his protected meatsuit and the fact that supernatural monsters have been altered a much more intriguing storyline.

Absolutely! At least as far as I'm concerned. Speaking for myself, the fact that I dislike the whole "Hunter Potentials" storyline (that's a good comparison, Pondlass!) does not mean that I would prefer that Dean and Sam be switched. If for whatever reason only one brother can be entrusted with micromanaging a group of tedious, interchangeable hunters, while the other is Michael's protected meatsuit, then I would rather that Dean have his current position in the story. But the point is that the show has to DO something with that story!

31 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Anyway I see a bright spark on a dim horizon.  I think Michael will return to Dean.  And I'm hoping for a battle of minds and strength of character.

(It won't happen, of course.  But I am crossing fingers).

My fingers are crossed too! :-)

[Lady Calypso]

I totally get the annoyance with Mary's scenes with Sam (and Bobby) this episode...but to be fair, should we EVER listen to Mary? Ever since she was brought back, she's basically said "see ya" to her kids so she doesn't really know them, or has cared to get to know them. So, as much as I like Sam, I also don't think he's a natural born leader. He's had to put in the work, so Mary's comment was extremely easy to dismiss since she hasn't cared to spend time with either Sam or Dean in the last few years. The line about her watching Sam the last few weeks is hilarious because she's been around for a couple of years now and she's JUST starting to notice him? Mary, all offense, but you suck as a mother. She really doesn't care about either son. A couple of conversations every couple of years about how she sees him and is proud of him (either Sam or Dean) doesn't count since it's clear it won't last and Mary will go right back to caring about anyone that doesn't have the last name Winchester.

I liked the Sam and Dean moments. The brothers are still the strongest part of the season for me and I feel like they're my favourite part so far. Sam is still showing that he can't do this without his brother, nor does he want to. Dean's stuff with the Jinn was great as well. I assume Michael protected Dean in case he needs to hop back in his body...or he has a grand plan with Dean as the final piece to it.

I tuned out anything Bobby/Mary. Sorry, but I don't care for their romance at all. This show isn't known for romances that work out, anyway, and I do not watch this show for that. 

[Casseiopeia]

Well  at least Meredith came up with a way to get both AU Bobby and cold distant Mary out of the Bunker.....so there's that.

[tennisgurl]

I thought the main plot was really good, with the Jinn and Michael leaving all of his uber powered monsters around as hunter traps, and Michael apparently leaving him around. Maybe Michael wants him saved to hop back into at some point? Or maybe he has some other grand plan? I dont know, but its a cool plan, and the case of the week stuff was fun. The Jinn and the daughter were both good actors, and I enjoyed the scenes between Dean and the daughter. This show just loves its daddy issues, huh? 

Speaking of parent issues, Mary really gives less than zero fucks about her sons, doesn't she? I mean, she has never exactly been mother of the year (here, take my child, yellow eyed demon!), but her complete lack of interest in her sons is becoming more obvious every episode she shows up in. So, despite her son having gone through this horrible violation and massive trauma, she decides its much better to run off to play hunter with her new boyfriend, then go off and play house, without so much as a How Ya Doin? She got one conversation with Sam (which was mostly about herself) in, and she ran off again instantly. I dont care about Alt Bobby and his issues, I dont care about Mary and her tepid romance with Alt Bobby, so I guess I can just be happy that they're leaving for awhile, and Mary can go not give a crap about her kids elsewhere. Sam and Dean must feel awfully silly about spending most of their lives obsessing about her memory and trying to avenge her death, considering she probably wouldn't give them (especially Dean) a glass of water after they wandered across the Sahara. 

Maggie sucks as a hunter, but is really good as a damsel in distress for Sam to obsess over. Really, I dont care at all about these Alt hunters, and I am just waiting for them to go away. Everyone gushing over Sams supposedly amazing leadership is getting a bit ridiculous at this point as well. I dont mind Sam growing as a leader, and struggling under that as he had to step up with Dean gone, but these people all just have Cannon Fodder tatted on their heads, so I cant get all that invested. It was super awkward though, when Dean showed up at "Chief" giving orders to his boy/girl scout trope. He just sucked the attention in the room towards him immediately. 

[BabySpinach]

10 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

It was super awkward though, when Dean showed up at "Chief" giving orders to his boy/girl scout trope. He just sucked the attention in the room towards him immediately. 

Seriously! As soon as Dean (or Jensen) walked in, he stood out like a beacon among the nameless, colorless mass of Sam's pets. I'm sure it was not the original intent. Sam just doesn't wield the same commanding aura. He's way too concerned about others' opinions of him and doesn't exactly exude a vibe of confidence or assertiveness. I was hoping they were going for a reluctant leader arc in 14.01, but it seems they're forging straight ahead with Super Special Leader Sammy who just needed oxygen-sucking Dean out of the way for a few weeks to truly come into his own. The writers are determined to stuff a square-shaped peg into a round-shaped hole.

Now Dean, I would follow off a cliff (as previous characters actually have, and plausibly so!).

[sarthaz]

Didn't suck, These days, that's high praise. Not loving the super-monsters (been there) or hunting hunters (done that), but in general I'm on board with any episodes that have the brothers working together to hunt something. That's the show. Do that.

Couldn't give two shits about Mary and Fake Bobby. If anything sucked oxygen in this episode, it was their scenes. Hope they die in that cabin.

Dreading the day when we get an episode that tries to give personalities to all the NPCs in the bunker only to have them killed in hopes of manipulating us into giving a damn. Dabb will probably even have one of the brothers call them "family". But they're all totally going to die.

[Lastcall]

10 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

Didn't suck, These days, that's high praise. Not loving the super-monsters (been there) or hunting hunters (done that), but in general I'm on board with any episodes that have the brothers working together to hunt something. That's the show. Do that.

Couldn't give two shits about Mary and Fake Bobby. If anything sucked oxygen in this episode, it was their scenes. Hope they die in that cabin.

Dreading the day when we get an episode that tries to give personalities to all the NPCs in the bunker only to have them killed in hopes of manipulating us into giving a damn. Dabb will probably even have one of the brothers call them "family". But they're all totally going to die.

If by some miracle Kripke writes the finale, I bet he will give this show the enema it has needed since season 12.

[tessathereaper]

2 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

Seriously! As soon as Dean (or Jensen) walked in, he stood out like a beacon among the nameless, colorless mass of Sam's pets. I'm sure it was not the original intent. Sam just doesn't wield the same commanding aura. He's way too concerned about others' opinions of him and doesn't exactly exude a vibe of confidence or assertiveness. I was hoping they were going for a reluctant leader arc in 14.01, but it seems they're forging straight ahead with Super Special Leader Sammy who just needed oxygen-sucking Dean out of the way for a few weeks to truly come into his own. The writers are determined to stuff a square-shaped peg into a round-shaped hole.

Now Dean, I would follow off a cliff (as previous characters actually have, and plausibly so!).

I'm thinking back to what was it Season 2? What was it "Croatoan"?  Dean was what? 27 years old - even Searg(I really hoped they wouldn't kill Searg, back then I had this idea that rather than having a bunch of additional regulars - they'd just have friends occasional recurrings and I hoped Searg would be one) who was a retired Marine or something like, clearly was able to accept Dean as a natural leader by the end of the episode(without it being said "Hey wow what a great leader you are, CHIEF!").  THAT is how natural leadership comes to Dean.  Sam doesn't exhude any of that.  He's more like a middle management, handing out chores.   It doesn't matter how many orders they have him give, he's not a leader.   I don't believe any of those people would follow him, if the script didn't say so.  Whereas with Dean it doesn't feel like a script is telling them what to do.

[BabySpinach]

Just now, tessathereaper said:

I'm thinking back to what was it Season 2? What was it "Croatoan"?  Dean was what? 27 years old - even Searg(I really hoped they wouldn't kill Searg, back then I had this idea that rather than having a bunch of additional regulars - they'd just have friends occasional recurrings and I hoped Searg would be one) who was a retired Marine or something like, clearly was able to accept Dean as a natural leader by the end of the episode(without it being said "Hey wow what a great leader you are, CHIEF!").  THAT is how natural leadership comes to Dean.  Sam doesn't exhude any of that.  He's more like a middle management, handing out chores.   It doesn't matter how many orders they have him give, he's not a leader.   I don't believe any of those people would follow him, if the script didn't say so.  Whereas with Dean it doesn't feel like a script is telling them what to do.

Absolutely. What also leaps to mind is the ending scene of 13.18, not that long ago. Both Cas and Sam are hesitant to break the bad news of Gabriel's departure to Dean, and they come off as lieutenants who have failed him. Dean's explosion of rage is all the more devastating because it's the leader who's losing it. That final shot, of Dean in the foreground and Cas and Sam behind each shoulder, was also very telling. And NONE of this needed to be textual. It was all in the subtext of the script, the acting, and the filmmaking, and was all the more effective for it. 

[FlickChick]

First of all, who came up with this stupid title? "Nightmare Logic" - there was no logic in this episode. "Sam is a natural leader" - no he isn't, so it doesn't make any sense.  Where were the "nightmares" - Not!Bobby's son whom we've never heard of or seen - who cares? No investment in the character - no logic to include it. The actual djinn storyline wasn't too bad - it just didn't seem like it was terribly relevant. What was the point of the whole episode? It felt very disconnected to me. Unfortunately, even the brothers working together didn't have the same spark for me that I had in previous episodes/seasons. Although it was better than when Dean gets sent off screen. I'm beginning to think that this "Special Super Sam Perfect Leader" getting shoved down my throat at every opportunity is turning me off the character of Sam period, which is sad. So, to me the only "Nightmare Logic" that appeared in this episode is that our nightmare showrunner uses no logic in his storytelling.

[ILoveReading]

The most WTF line of the ep was when Dean gives Sam credit for bringing Maggie home.   What exactly did Sam do in this ep expect get multiple reinforcement speeches from multiple people. 

Dean is the one that figured things out.  Dean is the one that had to convince Sam go to on the case in the first place.  Dean is the one that killed the Djinn.  How come Sam didnt' clue in when he saw Maggie in the attic.  He was the one that recused Dean.

It sounds like Dean was the one that checked on Maggie after the order but he give Sam all the credit. 

There is such a huge disconnect between the tell and the show.  If I'm supposed to be seeing Sam struggling or being uncomfortable someone needs to tell Jared.  The way he's playing it is obvious that Sam as lapping it up with a spoon.  His "maybe I cant' do this" sounded as fake as when Sam says he's the least of them.  

Even after Bobby layed a truth, Sam stood around looking lost and needed Mary to come to his rescues as to what to do next.  A good leader accepts that they may have screwed up.

Bobby didn't say anything to Sam that wasnt' true or earned.  A good leader should know if his troops are ready or not.  But that doesnt' fit with the narrative they want to tell. 

Buddy system, and checkins aren't leadership decisions.  They're common sense.  Sam seemed surprised Dean was hunting alone way back in the pilot and when Sam and Dean didn't check in with Jody and a few days she immediately started looking for them.  It's not rocket science.    The whole blogging thing is good on one hand, but shouldn't they be doing it before or after a hunt.  I mean stopping in the middle of hunt just seems to make a person an easier target, especially if your talking and need a light to film yourself.   Not exactly a good idea. 

The poor me, not sleeping working himself to the bone is Sam act isn't working because as Dean said, Sam doens't need to micro manage.  They're not newbies.  Funny how Sam can't trust the experienced ones but will trust the noob.   They're capable of looking up info or calling and asking if they need help.  Sam telling them to do homework was just dumb.   Soldiers learn survival skills that would come in handy.  Even Sam and Dean do research before a case to know what they're walking into.  Sam needs to have faith in the people under his command that he doesn't need to hold their hand to cross the street. 

Why isnt' Sam setting up some kind of schedule where they all take turned monitoring the check ins.  He's supposedly the best teacher ever. He was so good Maggie almost got killed on her first hunt.  Its been 8 weeks, shouldn't they have a least picked up the basics by now?  Why not ask Dean to take over some of the field stuff so he doesn't have too do it all. 
Good leaders trust and delegate. 

They can push Sam as a leader all they want, but watching the ep, Dean stole all the oxygen out of the room again. 

Edited November 10, 2018 by ILoveReading

[trudysmom]

Quote

9 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Dean stole all the oxygen out of the room again.

That's ok.  He can steal all the oxygen he wants.  I like when that happens.

[bethy]

Man. I have such a visceral negative reaction to any scene with Mary because the character just does not work for me. There was way too much of her in this episode for me. And the fact that we had a full scene devoted to her and Sam walking through the forrest discussing her romantic life made me want to scream. Having Mary fret "I'll be here the minute you need me" at Dean as she and Bobby head out for whatever does not make me believe that the character somehow cares about her son. Though on the plus side maybe if she and Bobby are off cannoodling at Donna's cabin, I won't have to see her for a while. 

I have many of the same issues people have already mentioned with Sam being touted as a great leader. It's so much tell and not nearly enough show. If they had even had him legitimately take responsibility for messing up by having Maggie out on a solo hunt by herself, as opposed to sighing mournfully about maybe it being his responsibility while everyone told him it wasn't, it would have made a big difference to me.  

What is the reference people are mentioning about Dabb and sucking the oxygen out of the room? Did he say that about Dean/Jensen at some point? 

[ILoveReading]

5 minutes ago, trudysmom said:

at's ok.  He can steal all the oxygen he wants.  I like when that happens.

I do to.  Jensen just has that screen presence. 

I'd follow Dean off a cliff, because I know he'd be going over with me.  Sam, I wouldn't follow to the kitchen because i'd have to tell him how awesome he was that he got me there safely and listen to a 20 minute lecture on how to properly use a knife, and give him credit for the how fresh the store bought bread was and how well wrapped the package cheese was.  Then despite that fact that I made the sandwich, I'd have to give credit to Sam for how good it tasted. 

[ILoveReading]

28 minutes ago, bethy said:

What is the reference people are mentioning about Dabb and sucking the oxygen out of the room? Did he say that about Dean/Jensen at some point?

Yes Dabb said this.  Paraphrasing.  He said getting Dean off screen gave other characters breathing room.

[MysteryGuest]

Just finished watching the episode.  I enjoyed it.  We know they've been leading up to something between Mary and Bobby, so I'm not too surprised by the turn of events.  The reality is that it's a good way to get them off the screen for a few weeks, so they can work in some of the other supporting cast.  We have yet to see Ketch, Charlie, Rowena, etc., so they need to space things out.  Bobby was injured and Mary's gone off with him until he's healed.  I have no problem with that.  It's not as if Sam and Dean need their mommy around.  I think we're supposed to assume they've worked through their issues, and this is now the relationship they have.  It's not so much mother and sons, but fellow hunters.  I can live with that.

As for Sam and his leadership role, it's a work in progress.  We know he doesn't take to it naturally, but he's working at it.  He has admitted in the past that following was always easier for him, and he's trying to change that.  I don't see how Sam's learning to be a leader takes anything away from the fact that Dean has pretty much always been a leader.  Dean's value isn't lessened by Sam's taking on a new role.  No one is saying that somehow Dean can't cut it anymore.  I just don't see it as a competition.

I like the idea of the super monsters.  It allows us to get back to some good old fashioned monster hunts, but ups the ante a bit with their new powers.  Building off of the BMOL model is a smart idea.  I don't know if we're really supposed to recognize some of these extra hunters yet, but most don't stand out to me.  The girl from this week's episode is pretty much the only one who's stuck with me.

Edited November 10, 2018 by MysteryGuest

[sarthaz]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

The most WTF line of the ep was when Dean gives Sam credit for bringing Maggie home.   What exactly did Sam do in this ep expect get multiple reinforcement speeches from multiple people. 

I don't have a problem with Sam being a reluctant leader, but that scene made no sense.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I do to.  Jensen just has that screen presence. 

I'd follow Dean off a cliff, because I know he'd be going over with me.  Sam, I wouldn't follow to the kitchen because i'd have to tell him how awesome he was that he got me there safely and listen to a 20 minute lecture on how to properly use a knife, and give him credit for the how fresh the store bought bread was and how well wrapped the package cheese was.  Then despite that fact that I made the sandwich, I'd have to give credit to Sam for how good it tasted. 

I legitimately LOL'd at this entire post because TRUE (IMHO).  LOL

[catrox14]

 Why does Sam even need to be a leader other than it's a plot for Sam? He's clearly ill suited to it. No one is making him do it either.  I mean maybe the end result will be that Sam learns he doesn't WANT to be a leader and it makes him unhappy and then he can be free to what makes him feel comfortable and that he can excel at in some other way. And there is nothing wrong with him making that choice either. 

But I don't think that's what they will do. I think (no spoilers here) they want to show how darn hard it is managing people but somehow he'll end up really good at it and all the hand wringing will just be poor Sam being too hard on himself.

All Sam has to do is tell people "I need to sleep' and then go sleep. That is what a smart leader will do.  I don't know why Sam isn't doing this other than he's fallen into some kind of martyr thing. Heck, they could even sell it as Sam doesn't want to sleep because he's having Lucifer nightmares or something.  Just some kind of explanation about why he's being so IMO stupid about this point.  If he's not getting enough rest, he's going to make bad decisions and IMO sending Maggie out was exactly that. 

[SueB]

I'm not sure Mary's departure was as anti-Mom as others have expressed. First, the show needs both she and Bobby off-screen so they can afford other actors.  So she was always going to be gone. Then, they have her first spend time with Sam 1 on 1 in the episode (as the episode focus really was on "Leader Sam").  

Finally there's the goodbye scene (dialog from iTunes closed captioning):
 

Quote

MARY: "Boys. Um.. we need to talk."
(later)
Dialog about using Donna’s cabin then, as Bobby is apologizing to Sam…

MARY (to Dean): "We’ll… We’ll just be a few weeks. As soon as Bobby is back on his feet.."

DEAN: "Hey, I know."

MARY:  "If you need anything—anything (puts her hand on his chest) I’m just half a day’s drive –"

DEAN (interrupting): "Mom, go. All right? Be happy."

(They hug)
(Then Mary hugs Sam)

Her body language, the direct looking into Dean's eyes... all were expressions of support for Dean and what he's dealing with.  Now ITA they should have shown her talking about his trauma at least once.  Or made some comment about "Mom's been talking to me..." to show they've had some discussion, directly, about what happened.  They've failed to do this.  But I think Mary demonstrated concern for Dean in that goodbye scene.  And Bobby is wounded and will need help for a while.  Plus his head is not on straight -- she made it clear to Sam she thinks Bobby is trying to get himself clear.

OTOH, Dean's "Be happy." is actually quite concerning.  His body language says he's okay with it, but I think it's a fair interpretation that he's just as happy with her on the sidelines rather than directly fighting Michael.  To me, he still is demonstraiting that he thinks his problems are HIS -- alone.  And that he doesn't want to be a burden.  That's not a good mental state for him.  And Sam needs to focus on the Michael hunt more.  His "I'll sleep two" (instead of three hours) was him being overwhelmed with everything going on.  

What Sam REALLY needs to have the hunters doing is gathering intel (in pairs) rather than engaging.  Figure out who has been amped up, what is the extent/type of monster army already built?  Is it continuing to propigate and how?

But show pacing is going to stretch out that answer for a while.  Mid-season at least, I would think. 

In sum, I think Mary demonstrated concern for Dean but the script and the externally driven factors did not have any direct on-screen support for him.
Dean being "okay" with Mary leaving is yet another sign that he's isolating himself in this problem.  Which I certainly understand his instinct, but his family should try to make it everyone's priority, not just Dean's.
Sam is overwhelmed.  
  

ETA:  Dean 'sucking the air out of the room' really WAS palpable.  I think it's designed to help us feel his isolation.

Edited November 10, 2018 by SueB

[BoxManLocke]

Yeah that's gonna be a resounding meh from me.

 

If this is what passes as a decent episode, boy this season is going to be a long one.

 

I said it before and I'll say it again : I hate everything about the AU people. I hate that I'm supposed to care about the faceless "hunters", who for some reason all decided to risk their lives daily in a relatively safe world after escaping an apocalyptic universe. I hate that they're essentially represented by a couple of copies of characters who shouldn't even be here. "Hey, you cared about Charlie and Bobby at some point right ? They're good people just like their hunter friends !". I hate that we're supposed to believe none of them have died on the job, especially if Sam is the kind of leader who sends a frightened teenager on a solo hunt. I hate that their presence completely fucks up Sam and Dean's relationship in the bunker.

 

I don't understand Dabb's fascination about Sam being a leader and him having to carry that burden alone for some reason. Why can't Mary, Dean or Castiel give him a hand ? Also, I'm not some horny fangirl, if I don't care about the people Sam is "leading", I'm not going to care about him leading them.

 

And, lastly, I hate that there are so many characters nothing feels organic anymore. This week it was Bobby and Mary's turn, then they got sent to plot purgatory (or they'll spend weeks fucking themselves silly in that cabin, idk), then next week it'll be Charlie, and so on. Because the show simply can't handle the numbers in a realistic way.

 

Anyway, the episode itself was mostly a missed opportunity. I thought we'd get to see everybody's nightmares, but in the end things mostly focused on Bobby and his blooming relationship with Mary. That little nugget of storytelling feels like it came out of the prolific mind of a 13 years old aspiring fanfic writer during a brainstorming session. About a decade ago. I'm so enthralled by their story I entirely skipped their last scene, just couldn't be bothered to hear about fake Bobby's sob story.

Between this and her disproportionate number of scenes with Sam, it's like the writers just don't want Mary to be popular. Well at least she didn't make some horrible decision this season. Yet.

 

I expected the episode to tell us more about Maggie. She may be slightly boring, but that sure isn't going to change if she's treated like a standard damsel in distress who gets five lines of dialogue per hour.

 

Also I've officially had enough of the Dean self-flagellation, especially when all it would take to end this is Sam/Jack telling him what Lucifer's plan was for humanity. The way this is written, you'd think Dean was just bored and decided to take Michael for a spin just to see what it felt like.

 

I guess the Djinn thing was vaguely interesting, but I'm going to need a lot more from Michael to get hooked. He's not even a menacing presence, just a mildly annoying one.

 

Noticed some really dumb editing at times as usual too. They just loooove cutting conversations at the worst moments.

 

I liked the daughter guest-star and a few location shots. The backgrounds were prettier than usual.

I know it's a pretty harmless episode to get worked up about, but the jarring shift in quality from last episode just made me realize that this season's "standard" episodes really aren't going to be enough for me.

Edited November 10, 2018 by BoxManLocke

[mertensia]

I enjoyed the episode. It was nice to see a djinn again and I liked that the djinn played his part until Dean figured it out.

Frankly, if I were the boys I wouldn't let Mary or Bobby leave. Not with Michael in the wind. 

[Aeryn13]

I was happy that Dean was so blasé about Mary leaving. He must have finally accepted that she wouldn`t spit on him if he was on fire. I mean she will make time to mollycoddle Sam about being the greatest born leader or her new boytoy Bobby about his issues but she obviously has never even asked Dean once if he was okay after the possession. The ending scene was ludicrous on her part, the actress simple doesn`t have enough range to halfway save such a badly-written character. If he needed her, she would not be there. Good on him for not even expecting it and telling her to go. 

Quote

As for Sam and his leadership role, it's a work in progress.  We know he doesn't take to it naturally

That`s not what the episode wanted to convey. He got praised to the high heavens as being a natural at this and the one character who thought otherwise had to eat crow, even though the critique was entirely legitimate. Sam is not gonna learn from any mistakes if the show pretends he doesn`t make them and mollycoddles him through it. 

As for Dean, they are leaving him out of it. Not out of the obnxious cheerleading but at least out of being a flunky. I guess that is best case scenario now. But the message isn`t that he has leadership capabilities or just doesn`t want to do it right now or that he ever was a leader, he is not being thought of in this context. This is the first time the show is explicitely addressing leadership as a story so for the writers that is the first time they make a statement about either brother as a leader and they make it about Sam. Dean isn`t in that equation. 

Like I said, if at least he is out of the room when Leader!Sam gets his ring kissed and if Dean doesn`t follow Chief`s orders, okay, do what you want, show. I can ff through all the bland AU!hunters just fine. 

[mertensia]

Also I forgot to say-  maybe what freaked the djinn out is that Dean either has no more worst fears or that his worst fears  are more than the djinn could handle. 

[trudysmom]

I wonder if my disappointment with the episode, and season so far, has as much to do with the actors' ability to portray the characters as with the crappy writing.  The only ones who were even somewhat engaging were the creepy groundskeeper (props for misdirection, there Dabb), the Djinn and Dean.  But Jensen always delivers, and maybe that's what is getting to me.  Jared seems to have two facial expressions, exasperation/embarrassment over something (Dean did, usually) and worry/concern.  When was the last time the guy smiled?  Halloween episode?  I can't remember.  Samantha Smith just does nothing for me.  In earlier seasons, flashback episodes Mary seemed at least somewhat motherly.  Now we're supposed to believe that she was always this badass hunter, but that she put all that behind her for John and the boys.  But now, here she is again, her true self!--Badass Mary!  I don't see it.  Bobby, the old Bobby, I loved.  This new Bobby, nope.  Maybe it's the lack of history with the brothers that's missing, but I don't give one good damn whether he approves of them and how they do things.  His opinion means zilch.  Same, I fear with Charlie when she comes back.  I don't know why Dabb can't see that this show hinges on Jensen.  He's the only one holding it up, and I truly am not saying that because he's the most perfect looking man alive and has tremendous presence and range and all that wonderful stuff that  is being wasted on this show.  Is Jared tired?  Ready to move on?  Is he phoning it in?  I don't want to think that, I've loved both brothers from the start. But this, lately, is not Supernatural.

I loved the way he dealt with  the Djinn. Over the top, yes.  Is it dead?  I don't know. But shades of DemonDean and MOCDean came through and I loved that cold, determined look when he emptied his gun into him.  And I HATED his props to Sammy at the end.  "You did this.  You brought her home" or whatever drivel it was he had to say.  PLEASE.  

And did Sam say "We'll find Evil Kaia, get the spear"?  So...how?  Is he going to ask nicely and say pretty please?  Because when Dean was going to get answers from her Sam seemed to have a problem with that.  Or will he leave it to Dean so he doesn't get his hands, and conscience dirty?  I don't want to think these thoughts!! 

It's possible I have a problem.  Is there a 12 Step program I can take to get over Supernatural Addiction?

[Myrelle]

22 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And it's probably my Dean-goggles, but maybe I can understand Dabb's comment about oxygen-sucking, because when Sam was 'teaching' those hunters and Dean walked in, I could *feel* Sam's  'leadership' being undermined just by Dean being in the room.

I LOVED! that scene for the same reasons.

22 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Plus, I still can't think of a reason why these people would follow Chief in the first place.  They should have wanted Michael dead.  If FakeBobby lost a son in the war it makes more sense that Bobby would be leading the AU hunters against Michael rather than them acting like Sam is the 2nd coming. 

Nothing about this story feels organic

IA.

[Myrelle]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

That`s not what the episode wanted to convey. He got praised to the high heavens as being a natural at this and the one character who thought otherwise had to eat crow, even though the critique was entirely legitimate. Sam is not gonna learn from any mistakes if the show pretends he doesn`t make them and mollycoddles him through it. 

As for Dean, they are leaving him out of it. Not out of the obnxious cheerleading but at least out of being a flunky. I guess that is best case scenario now. But the message isn`t that he has leadership capabilities or just doesn`t want to do it right now or that he ever was a leader, he is not being thought of in this context. This is the first time the show is explicitely addressing leadership as a story so for the writers that is the first time they make a statement about either brother as a leader and they make it about Sam. Dean isn`t in that equation.

I think that the bolded part, more than anything else, is what makes this storyline seem inorganic.

They could and should have Sam at least acknowledge that most of what HE learned about being a leader, he learned from Dean.

37 minutes ago, trudysmom said:

And I HATED his props to Sammy at the end.  "You did this.  You brought her home" or whatever drivel it was he had to say.  PLEASE. 

And Sam should especially say it now, after this nonsense.

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I think that the bolded part, more than anything else, is what makes this storyline seem inorganic.

They could and should have Sam at least acknowledge that most of what HE learned about being a leader, he learned from Dean.

And Sam should especially say it now, after this nonsense.

At least it is in character for Dean to encourage Sam. He always has, at least when Sam is trying to do the right thing anyway. I can deal with that as long as, like in this episode,  they don't dumb Dean down or make him incompetent in the process. Since I don't give a flying f*** about the AU people, I don't care if he leads them. I do, on the other hand,  think they are extra stupid for ignoring the guy who knows more than all of them put together when he's standing right in front of them.

Now if (when, knowing Dabb), Garth and other hunters from our world start prayer at the altar of Chief Sam, all bets are off.

[Myrelle]

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

At least it is in character for Dean to encourage Sam.

And if Sam is the awesome leader that they're touting him as, then IMO, he should be able to finally recognize and acknowledge things like this about his brother, amongst many other positive things concerning Dean and leadership capability. 

[mertensia]

Dean probably intimidates the hell out of a lot of hunters, both AU and not. I'm not too surprised a lot of them look more to Sam.

[SueB]

5 minutes ago, mertensia said:

Dean probably intimidates the hell out of a lot of hunters, both AU and not. I'm not too surprised a lot of them look more to Sam.

If they were to watch Dean take on a random MOTW, I think most would piss their pants.  They may be war veterans but Dean's hand-to-hand is next level.  Having said that, I think that the hand to hand fighting that Dean excels at is something they all need work on.  Sam's got the organizational things going but the actual physical training needs work IMO.

[ILoveReading]

46 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

hey could and should have Sam at least acknowledge that most of what HE learned about being a leader, he learned from Dean.

That's what bothers me.  The writers have always gone with brains/brawn but now they seem to need to make Sam both.  Even if Dean isn't interested in the day to day stuff.  (I agree that doesn't  interest him).  I can really see Dean thriving at teaching young hunters.  Because he doesn't sugar coat or glamourize what hunting actually is like others do.  Ever since the ep Bad Boys that was kind of my dream ending for Dean, with him turning the bunker into a home for those who lost their parents due to hunting. 

36 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Since I don't give a flying f*** about the AU people, I don't care if he leads them. I do, on the other hand,  think they are extra stupid for ignoring the guy who knows more than all of them put together when he's standing right in front of them.

The other thing I really dislike is martyr Sam routine their trying to shove down our throats because it doesn't have to be that way.  Now that Dean isn't hibernating in his room anymore what exactly is he doing all day?  The others hunters can't take turns monitoring footage and body cam footage? Are they incompetent or does Chief not trust them.  Either way that doesn't' speak to Sam's effectiveness as a leader.  When someone said they didn't know how do to something, Sam didn't teach them, he just did it himself.   I've always felt Sam is the more controlling brother, despite the tell.  We see shades of this here.  He can't let go of that control.    I've said before.  There is a difference between been a leader and being in charge.  What I'm seeing is Sam being in charge, not leading.   What Dean did in his ep is leadership.   I get Sam's need for control, given his history but that doesnt' necessarily mean Sam is born for leader ship or an effective one.  He's not based on what we saw here. 

Since Michael is giving monsters upgrades that changes their powers Sam's lectures and telling the hunters to do their homework is useless.  They didn't even consider the possibility of a Djinn because it didn't fit the pattern.  The only reason is because Dean recognized the rig.  Even, Sam and Dean as prepared as they are could never have prepared for that hunt.   On a hunt, knowledge is important but so if flexibility.  You have to be able to adapt on the fly.  Like when their plan for the hell house went sideways.  This is why I felt they were effective as a team in the early seasons.  But not its seems like the gap is widening because its coming across as a competition that knowledge vs experiences  rather than them complementing them for working together.   Experience is what solved this case.

Dean may not want to think about Michael and what he did, but Dean would never shy away from it if he felt it could help.

38 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

At least it is in character for Dean to encourage Sam.

Unfortunately, its also in character for Sam to accept credit when its not his and to not acknowledge the part Dean played.  See the amount of back patting Sam gave himself in 9.01. 

The problem with Sam is that power goes to his head.  Ruby, Lucifer, The Brits.  It's actually dangerous for the world if people tell Sam he is special.  I can see this happening again with Sam thinking that if he doesn't do it, it won't get done right.  Again, that's control not leadership. 

1 hour ago, trudysmom said:

When was the last time the guy smiled?

Sam's seems to have lost his personality.  He's had more of personality when he was souless.  Now hes like a robot or someone on my timeline described him, a list of correct test answers.  

1 hour ago, trudysmom said:

Samantha Smith just does nothing for me.

The problem is that Sam Smith really does think she seems to be playing Mary as a loving mom.  With that whole, if you need me i"ll be there.  Jensen's facial expressions didn't really come across as Dean finding that comforting, but more as resigned that its a nice thought but she probably would have some excuse why she couldn't make it, or more important things to do. He still loves his mom, of course, and he genuinely wants her to be happy but I think he's given up on Mary being in his life in any real meaningful way.     He genuinely didn't care that she was leaving.  He expects it at this point.  

[ILoveReading]

23 minutes ago, SueB said:

Sam's got the organizational things going but the actual physical training needs work IMO.

We saw that Bobby was in charge of that but now that he's gone I'm sure it will just end up other  thing on poor put upon Sam's plate.  So he'll only get one hour of sleep.  There doens't seem to be anyone else in the bunker capable of helping Sam with this stuff.

Edited November 10, 2018 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

I don't understand why bodycams are a good idea here. IMO, if the noobs  aren't well enough trained to physically defend themselves bodycams aren't going to help and may be a liability in the long run if they lose one during a fight. I mean remember when the boys called out the ghostfacers for recording hunts...because it was a bad idea. Maggie went alone because she had a false sense of security with the bodycam. IMO, it's a distraction more than a help for noobs.

 Also, is someone live monitoring their hunts via these body cams for training purposes? If so, couldn't someone with better hacking skills than Sam track them?  Also?  It doesn't seem to help on the hunt as much as it is for after something happens. 

It seems good on paper until I thought about it a bit more.

[Pondlass1]

The thing for me when it comes to the brothers is character.  Over thirteen years and despite some horrid and uneven writing, I think most of us know the brothers pretty well. 

 It's not just that Dean is a leader... it's that from what we've seen as he's moved from 20s to 30s and now approaching 40, Dean is a natural born leader.  He takes charge right away. Oh, he’s bossy and he yells.  He can be impulsive and reckless. But he has leadership in his bones.  The bunker hunters wouldn't call him Chief or sit in awe as he rallied the troops.  They'd jump to attention, probably not like him very much sometimes, but would follow his orders because they made a lot of sense.  Dean would earn their respect and loyalty.

I realize Sam is getting a lot of flack here and much of it is unfair.  But Sam is really not a leader.  That doesn't mean he can’t lead.   It doesn't mean he's not smart or as good as his brother. You either have it in you or you don't.  (I'm certainly not a leader type). It’s just not in his bones. Leaders mostly rise to the position naturally.  And sometimes they're evil and bad (Lord of the Flies).  Leaders emerge through strength of character and a commanding personality.

Sam is being forced into the position by script and Dabb.  Even Jared seems awkward. The bunker hunters and their body cams and being sent out on hunts - well, it's bloody boring.  We don't care. Sam is being shoved into something that doesn't fit his personality and for what? A boring storyline of redshirt hunters milling about OUR bunker? 

And in the process, rather than bolstering the character, they’re criminally woobifying Sam.  Poor baby. Not sleeping. Grew a beard. Sighs and deep breaths. Puckered brow. Mommy’s so worried about him. Fretting about hunters on hunts all over the place.  This isn’t Supernatural.  This is soap...everyone must be woobyfied.

No wonder viewers tuned in and then turned off this episode. A girl wandering a graveyard at night and attacked by a ghost. Wow – let’s keep watching this gem.  It’s so original ..NOT! 

I’ll admit the episode got better and viewers should’ve stuck with it.  If you FF through Mobby (with Mary in Cas' trenchcoat and Bobby sporting Michael's hat FFS!!!) scenes it wasn’t bad at all and we learned something quite important (I think?)

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I’ll admit the episode got better and viewers should’ve stuck with it.  If you FF through Mobby (with Mary in Cas' trenchcoat and Bobby sporting Michael's hat FFS!!!) scenes it wasn’t bad at all and we learned something quite important (I think?)

IMO, they should have led with showing us that someone in that house was a supermonster that Michael sent in.  Don't tell us exactly which one was. We should have been shown the trap first, shown why it mattered and then worried if Dean was in danger from the trap. I would have been fretting over how successful the trap would be and what it would have meant to Dean to understand it earlier and then be worried that Michael was still inside him.  IMO, that should have been what was going on in the beginning.  Then let the NotBobby thing show up at some point.  Give us the trap, make us worry if they will figure out the trap, and be able to save Maggie thinking that Michael might show up. That would be the tension to sustain the episode.  But NOPE. 

[Myrelle]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, they should have led with showing us that someone in that house was a supermonster that Michael sent in.  Don't tell us exactly which one was. We should have been shown the trap first, shown why it mattered and then worried if Dean was in danger from the trap. I would have been fretting over how successful the trap would be and what it would have meant to Dean to understand it earlier and then be worried that Michael was still inside him.  IMO, that should have been what was going on in the beginning.  Then let the NotBobby thing show up at some point.  Give us the trap, make us worry if they will figure out the trap, and be able to save Maggie thinking that Michael might show up. That would be the tension to sustain the episode.  But NOPE. 

Yup. 

The writing priorities where it concerns attention to storylines are a mess and that's why viewers are tuning out halfway through, IMO also.

[catrox14]

It is hilarious to me that the show has chosen to completely ignore Not!Bobby's big speech to stay here only long enough to regroup and go back to save the rest of them and that he's now trying to find another way to live.  That legitimately makes me LOL and have zero respect for Not!Bobby who I kind of liked when he was first introduced. 

And Mary, man, I guess as long as notBobby is living for her she's all good.  She's such an asshole. 

ETA: and she's not even a fun asshole either. She's just a big jerk IMO

Edited November 10, 2018 by catrox14